Demon Dogs & The Hatman!

Summary

Haunted Cosmos: Demon Dogs and The Hatman!

Podcast: Haunted Cosmos
Date: March 11, 2026
Hosts: Ben Garrett & Brian Sauvé
Guest: Thomas Desell

Episode Overview

In this episode of Haunted Cosmos’s “Graveyard Shift,” Ben and Brian welcome plumber and church member Thomas Desell, who shares a series of chilling and bizarre encounters from his traumatic childhood—a time marked by domestic turmoil and extraordinary paranormal activity. The trio delves into spectral canine apparitions, the infamous “Hatman,” and an unexplainable light phenomenon, mapping Thomas’s journey from skepticism to belief in the reality of spiritual warfare. The episode further explores the relationship between spiritual darkness in the home, demonic oppression, and how faith in Christ transforms one’s experience of the supernatural.

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Key Discussion Points & Segment Breakdown

1. Introductions & Lighthearted Banter (00:48–08:36)

• Hosts Ben and Brian joke about podcast retention, Les Misérables impressions, and share a playful exchange about famous musicians, before introducing guest Thomas Desell.
• Thomas’s Background:
  • Apprentice plumber with a knack for “gross stories” from sewage work (04:14).
  • Converted from Islam to Christianity as a child (03:14–03:24).
  • Attends Refuge Church for 5–6 years.
• Icebreaker Questions:
  • Favorite plumbing jobs (grossest ones are best for storytelling, 04:14–04:41).
  • Narnia favorites: all three discuss which book is the most underrated, sharing affection for “The Magician’s Nephew,” “Horse and His Boy,” and “The Silver Chair” (06:02–08:01).
    • “Every time I’ve read it, I just can’t help but bawl when the nephew walks, knowing he could potentially lose his mother, but he’s just going to obey Aslan.” —Thomas (07:38)

2. Thomas’s Childhood Hauntings: Demon Dogs & The Dead Woman (09:06–16:14)

The House in West Valley

• Thomas, once a hardened skeptic of the paranormal, recounts a series of disturbing encounters in his childhood home, tying them to family dysfunction and the looming presence of his abusive, non-practicing Muslim father.
• Main Story—The Demon Dogs:
  • At age 3–4, Thomas sees three “undead, snarling Doberman-like dogs” at the foot of his bed and feels paralyzed with terror (12:32–13:14).
    • “Frozen in fear. Snarling dogs, feeling the heat of their breath at my feet.” —Thomas (13:04)
  • Tries to turn to his mother for comfort, only to find a corpse-like woman in her place (13:19).
    • “When I turned to grab my mom—it was an, it wasn’t undead, but it was like a dead woman. Like, fully dead. Not moving. And I was terrified.” —Thomas (13:19)
  • Experiences what seems to be a “bubble of sound” during the event; people in the house don’t notice or hear the commotion.
  • After this encounter, feels he can no longer sleep alone, and his sense of safety is irreparably damaged (14:14–15:15).
• Host Commentary:
  • The hosts draw parallels to classic sleep paralysis and hypnagogic phenomena but argue the events have real spiritual, not just psychological, weight (19:19–21:14).
    • “Even if that was true, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a real spiritual phenomenon.” —Brian (20:28)

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3. The Hatman Incident(s) (24:02–37:42)

Fatima (“Fat Emma”), the Playground, and the Shadow Man

• Thomas’s older sister, Fatima/Fat Emma, encounters a sinister figure—a silent man in a hat, lurking behind a fence by the playground.
  • At first, she’s alone with Thomas, notices the man staring at her, then gets frightened when he “brandishes a knife...gleaming in the light” and chases them (25:39, 26:55, 30:43).
    • “She saw this man in a hat right behind a fence, just standing there and staring at her...and then he started running towards Emma, like, jumping the fence.” —Thomas (26:55, 30:43)
• Thomas’s brother, initially eager to “fight the hatman,” panics when confronted by the entity, especially as the figure pursues them aggressively, jumping a tall fence with unnatural speed.
• Disturbing recurrence: Thomas and siblings later see the Hatman again at night, with heightened aggression and the presence of a knife (30:43).
  • “He’s standing there, brandishing a knife in front of him, gleaming in the light...then started running towards Emma, jumping the fence.” —Thomas (30:43)
• Hatman Recurrence and Shadow Phenomena:
  • Thomas recounts seeing hat-wearing shadow figures in the corner of his eye, both in public (grocery stores) and when driving after moving away (37:55–38:57).
    • “I would see a dark figure in a hat, just, like, in a tree. Or at the edge of a house...maybe it was just my imagination, but maybe there was something to that—something lingering.” —Thomas (37:55)
• Host Insights:
  • Brian and Ben tie these manifestations to widespread shadow people/hatman lore, relating Thomas’s stories to other encounters involving scratches, strangulation, and facelessness (32:09–33:43).
    • “Strong streak of Hatman or black shadow person stories result in two things: scratches or strangulation.” —Brian (33:34)
  • Discussion of Utah’s unique spiritual landscape—marked by historical occult practices, Mormonism, and a lack of Christian spiritual cleansing (40:28–41:44).

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4. Unexplained Light Phenomenon: In-House UFO? (41:44–47:12)

• Thomas recalls a final strange event: while his family is gathered in the kitchen, the lights begin changing wildly to multiple colors, and outside, a flying object displaying the same flashing colors streaks across the sky.
  • “Suddenly, the lights start changing different colors—reds, blues, greens...and we saw the same colors outside in the sky. We all saw it.” —Thomas (41:44)
  • Hosts bring in classic “missing time” and hypnotic phenomena from cases like Devil’s Den and Betty & Barney Hill, noting a “deep apathy” or sense of entrancement, with families moving on from the event without further discussion.

---

5. Transformation: Christian Deliverance and the End of Hauntings (47:17–53:22)

• After the family’s conversion to Christianity and departure from the oppressive home, Thomas experiences no further hauntings or spiritual oppression.
  • His stepfather teaches him to trust in Christ for protection:
    • “Now that we are a home of Christ ... I’m protected not just by him, but by God and his legion of angels.” —Thomas (48:51)
• Despite revisiting haunted locations as a teenager with friends, “nothing ever happens” when Thomas is present—a running joke, attributed by the hosts to the indwelling Holy Spirit acting as spiritual armor.
  • “Every time you come, nothing happens at all.” —Thomas’s friends (50:57)
  • “Jesus Christ is the Lord of spirits...Even my silliest, dumbest soldier is trying to go ghost hunting, I’m not going to let it work.” —Brian (50:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On conversion and baptism:
  • “I got baptized when I was 8, not knowing what I was doing. But I call that a paedo-baptism now.” —Thomas (03:29)
• On demonic events:
  • “It’s like this playground for the demons, where even a household and a family that’s supposed to be safe...can become the haunt in the wilderness.” —Ben (21:14)
• On Hatman lore
  • “He’s always got that hat. Where did he get that hat? Who’d he get it from? Did he lose a golden fiddle contest?” —Brian (33:58)
• On spiritual transformation:
  • “Nothing ever happens at all when you come.” —Thomas’s friends (50:57)
  • “That’s right. It’s the Holy Spirit.” —Brian (50:54)

---

Thematic Takeaways

• Spiritual reality is real and dangerous:
  Thomas’s journey from skepticism to faith is shaped powerfully by dark spiritual phenomena and later, by the peace only Christ provides.
• Household spiritual state matters:
  Persistent unrepentant sin and idolatry (Islam/Mormonism) correspond to more frequent and potent hauntings.
• Christians need not fear:
  While spiritual darkness is active, the victory of Christ breaks its power—a lesson Thomas experiences firsthand.

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Icebreakers & Introductions — 00:48–08:36
• Backstory, Childhood Home, and Demon Dogs — 09:06–16:14
• Discussion: Sleep Paralysis, Skepticism, and Spiritual Warfare — 19:19–21:14
• Hatman Stories and Playground Encounters — 24:02–37:42
• Hatman and Shadow Figure Behavior/Analysis — 37:42–41:44
• UFO/Unexplainable Lights Story — 41:44–47:12
• Christian Transformation and End of Hauntings — 47:17–53:22

---

Final Thoughts & Closing

Brian (53:34):
“We hope these stories were fun, but more importantly, that you see the theme here—that the spiritual world is real; it’s not something to be trifled with, but it’s also, because of Christ, not a thing to be filled with existential fear of. …You come to Christ, repent of your sin, put your trust in Him, and you can have life in Him. He’s not just a good vibe, He’s literally the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in you.”

---

This rich and unnerving episode stands as both a campfire-style collection of firsthand hauntings and a faith-rooted meditation on the power and reality of spiritual warfare—providing both chills and hope.

Transcript

[Ben Garrett]

Want more Haunted Cosmos? Then make your way over to Patreon, where you can get early access to our content, as well as exclusive content and regular dusty tomes and monthly live streams with Brian and myself. Plus, right now we're running a special offer, 90% off of your first month. You heard that, right? So go to patreon.com haunted cosmos and sign up now. This episode is brought to you by Indigo Sundry Soap Company. Clean soap, cleaner body.

[Thomas Desell]

But this time he's standing there and he's just like. Like he's brandishing a knife in front of him, gleaming in the light. And then he started running towards Emma, like, jumping the fence.

[Ben Garrett]

If I can outrun fat Emma, I'm good.

[Brian Sauve]

Dark face. Just peek out from behind the door, dude.

[Ben Garrett]

See that? That creepy, uncanny smile that goes from ear to ear. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Graveyard shift. Ooh, the spookiest thing that Haunted Cosmos does.

[Brian Sauve]

You gotta stop.

[Ben Garrett]

Welcome to Haunted Cosmos, Graveyard shift.

[Brian Sauve]

You gotta stop. Welcome.

[Ben Garrett]

My name is Ben Garrett. I'm your host, joined as always by my friend and co host Brian sauve.

[Brian Sauve]

That our YouTube retention graph just went at one second to zero. Like it's a new YouTuber and we deserved it.

[Ben Garrett]

All right, I'm gonna do another. But it was better than another one.

[Brian Sauve]

Whatever. The musical theater one. You're constant, constantly doing.

[Ben Garrett]

Jean Valjean, by the way, before I introduce our guest, which I know this is really rude.

[Brian Sauve]

Don't do it.

[Ben Garrett]

Just. Just wait a second.

[Brian Sauve]

Don't do it.

[Ben Garrett]

I saw the guy that does that. The Jean Valjean thing on Instagram. He went to a Lorde concert recently, which, by the way, who goes to Lorde concerts?

[Brian Sauve]

Is that Lord with an e?

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, Lord. Gotcha. Gotcha the way.

[Brian Sauve]

Jean. What a blasphemous name for yourself.

[Ben Garrett]

Well, I think it might be her name.

[Brian Sauve]

Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

[Ben Garrett]

Anyway, keep going. Anyway, he was there and he was doing the Jean Valjean impression, singing along to lorde. But it was during, like, one of the quiet songs, and she heard him and started laughing last night. Huge dub. Anyway, we're joined also by a very special guest. Cause this is the graveyard shift. And so we have guests and his name. Can I use your name? Yeah, his name is Thomas Desell. And say hello to the people, Thomas.

[Thomas Desell]

Hello, people.

[Ben Garrett]

Yes, yes, welcome. Welcome to graveyard. Thomas has been generous with us, and he's taken time out of his very busy schedule with sewage pipes.

[Brian Sauve]

Literally fixing people's actual problems.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Making people's lives Considerably better on a daily basis. And he's here to tell us some ghost stories. So.

[Brian Sauve]

Worth it, Thomas. Worth it.

[Thomas Desell]

Tell us.

[Ben Garrett]

I mean, you're a plumber. I gave that away. But tell the people a little bit about yourself.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. As you said, I'm. I'm an apprentice plumber. So really I'm just an adult man with power tools who doesn't know what

[Ben Garrett]

he's doing most of the time.

[Brian Sauve]

Not you.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, I'm the one who goes into the crawl spaces. Yeah, I'm. I'm a Christian. I've been attending refuge now, I think, for like, five, six years.

[Ben Garrett]

It's probably right.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Been a Christian since I was 12. 11. 12 years old. Yeah. I converted out of Islam.

[Brian Sauve]

Really?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

I didn't know. Did you know that huge dog for

[Brian Sauve]

the Lord Jesus Christ?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. But I got, like, baptized when I was 8, not knowing what I was doing. But I called that a pedal baptism now, so.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But I did do a second baptism per evangelical.

[Brian Sauve]

I mean, the first one was based. I want to be clear.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Even. Even the Credo Baptists, they're all paedo Baptists because, like, they're infants in the faith, you know?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Just again, plummet. Guys, we don't mean it. We love you. We love Baptists.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Okay. So, Thomas, we've been doing an icebreaker question with all of our guests on the grave on the graveyard shift. And my question for you is a two parter.

[Thomas Desell]

All right.

[Ben Garrett]

Okay. Part one. What is your favorite thing to do whilst plumbing?

[Thomas Desell]

Whilst plumbing.

[Ben Garrett]

Like, what's your favorite plumbing project to do?

[Thomas Desell]

My favorite plumbing projects are just really. It's honestly like, the most disgusting stuff.

[Ben Garrett]

Like the sewage stuff.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Because that's the stuff that, like, I have stories to tell. Everything else is kind of, like, lame. Like, like trying to, like, undrain a sewage, like, pipe.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Kind of just sucks.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But, like, when I'm able to tell a gross story about, like, a full line that I've cut and I'm just getting sprayed in the face with poop,

[Brian Sauve]

you're like, I was like the Shawshank Redemption guy squiggling through the. And it was all poop the whole way.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Like, those are the fun stories, and they're rare because it barely happens. Yeah. But majority of the time it's like, yeah, I pulled this toilet and then I reset it.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

And it's super boring and micro. Micro. But micro is like. But you're my guy.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Top guy. Yeah, my top guy.

[Thomas Desell]

My second favorite ones are like, the interesting people that you see, like.

[Brian Sauve]

Yep.

[Thomas Desell]

I don't know how much I could say probably not too much.

[Ben Garrett]

I don't know. I don't want to tank your business.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. But, like, you meet some interesting people, you know, and just they're super weird. Or like, you get, like, really snobby people who are like, you are beneath me because you are a plumber. And I like, work in real estate, you know, But I work Weird flex

[Brian Sauve]

because, like, a lot of plumbers make, like $300,000. Real estate agents right now are making, like, negative $30 a year.

[Ben Garrett]

I'm a Mary Kay representative. And you're a lowly plumber.

[Thomas Desell]

And they're the type of people who are like, you know, I'm not going to pay for that. I'm like, well, if you make so much money, like, why wouldn't you pay for that?

[Ben Garrett]

I'm not gonna pay. Hey, I know that I hired you for a job. Here's the fun part. I'm not gonna pay for it. Okay.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Second part two. What is your favorite Narnia book?

[Thomas Desell]

My favorite Narnia book that. Now it's a good question.

[Ben Garrett]

You've read everybody.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, I've read them. Yeah. I've read them all like three, four times probably by now. My favorite one has always been the Magician's Nephew.

[Ben Garrett]

Dude.

[Brian Sauve]

What a.

[Thomas Desell]

Which is like a. Like when talking to other people. Because I've asked this question too. Usually people don't pick that one. They're like, I hate that one. I think it's super disconnected, you know?

[Brian Sauve]

Are you kidding me?

[Thomas Desell]

Those are the answers I get.

[Ben Garrett]

The worst one is Prince Casper.

[Brian Sauve]

I have a message for people who say that. Hide.

[Ben Garrett]

What's yours?

[Thomas Desell]

Okay.

[Brian Sauve]

It's almost impossible to say one. Well, today they're all S tier.

[Ben Garrett]

What's yours today?

[Brian Sauve]

First of all, they're all S tier. But the one that I think I will to my grave defending that I think the one that gets slept on that is actually up there is Horse and His Boy.

[Ben Garrett]

Horse and His Boy I love is

[Brian Sauve]

Amazing and the Voyage of the Dawn Shredder. A lot of people love that one, but those two are like, probably the top.

[Ben Garrett]

Okay, well, I'm.

[Thomas Desell]

That's the one that everyone always says is their favorite, though.

[Brian Sauve]

Really?

[Thomas Desell]

In my conversation.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah, most I hear people say it's not. It's the worst.

[Ben Garrett]

Really?

[Thomas Desell]

Really.

[Brian Sauve]

Bendel Worry, I think said that a

[Ben Garrett]

lot of people at this church on Horse and His Boy is the. Is the top. Is the top of the S tier. Now mine is I'm glad y' all haven't said it. Silver Chair.

[Brian Sauve]

Silver Chair.

[Thomas Desell]

So good.

[Ben Garrett]

Silver Chair.

[Thomas Desell]

Puddle Glum.

[Ben Garrett]

You got Puddle Glum. The la. The ending of Silver Chair is. Is what does it for me.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, that one's really good.

[Ben Garrett]

The only thing that's missing from Silver Chair is Reichit.

[Brian Sauve]

That's a good point.

[Thomas Desell]

You know what I mean? But he had a great ending.

[Ben Garrett]

He did. He did.

[Thomas Desell]

That was fantastic.

[Ben Garrett]

It was. Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

I mean, gosh, going into the light and just like.

[Ben Garrett]

And he, like, drops a sword. He's like, I don't need this anymore. The symbolism. Yeah. Okay.

[Brian Sauve]

Hits you.

[Thomas Desell]

The reason why Magician's Nephew is my favorite, though, is that every time I've read it, I just can't help but ball when the nephew walks, knowing that, like, he could potentially lose his mother.

[Ben Garrett]

Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But he's just going to obey Aslan.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And, like, everybody's nodding at him like,

[Brian Sauve]

they're like, you did job, buddy.

[Thomas Desell]

You did a good job.

[Ben Garrett]

Oh, so good.

[Thomas Desell]

That just hits.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Okay, bonus. Third one. Okay.

[Brian Sauve]

Gotta get to the great.

[Ben Garrett]

I know, I know, I know, I know.

[Brian Sauve]

Gotta get there.

[Ben Garrett]

All right, bonus.

[Brian Sauve]

Third retention plummets.

[Ben Garrett]

We know. Hey, bonus.

[Brian Sauve]

They're actually taking views from our other videos.

[Ben Garrett]

Let a guy cook.

[Brian Sauve]

Penalize.

[Ben Garrett]

Let me cook. You're going to feel so. You're going to feel so dumb after this.

[Brian Sauve]

Go ahead and cook.

[Ben Garrett]

Bonus. Third question. What is the story that you've come on the graveyard shift today?

[Brian Sauve]

Don't I feel silly?

[Thomas Desell]

Nice.

[Ben Garrett]

That actually wasn't going to be it

[Brian Sauve]

until you said that. I know, I know.

[Ben Garrett]

All right, so here's what we're going to do.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Everyone knows the rules. Brian has no idea what's gonna be said.

[Brian Sauve]

No idea.

[Ben Garrett]

Here's a bonus. I also have no idea what's gonna be said either. Cause I've forgotten that he even told me or because I don't think I ever heard for the first time. So, Thomas, we're gonna let you go. We're gonna try not to be obnoxious and interrupt you a bunch. We may have questions, but you, like, do your thing and then we'll.

[Thomas Desell]

I have a few little stories, really. But it all stems from a house I used to live in in West Valley. Was a little townhouse. And just weird things happened, you know, when I was living there. And for the longest time, I've been, like, the biggest skeptical. Like, I've been very skeptical of, like, spiritual stuff. I always try to, like, explain away, explain it away kind of thing. And I always Thought like those things that happened at that house was like a figment of my imagination because it was like a really tough time for me growing up in that house. I was, was right before my parents got divorced.

[Ben Garrett]

How old were you?

[Thomas Desell]

I was. When we moved out of there, I, I think I was like 6 or 7.

[Ben Garrett]

Oh, okay.

[Thomas Desell]

I lived there my, like when I was. From my understanding from when I was born until that time. Yeah, yeah. And so it was like a really hard season of my life in those younger years. I have memories from when I was three all the way up until I moved out and it was just like really rough time. My father was, you know, very abusive, saw a lot of things I shouldn't have and so I.

[Brian Sauve]

Was he Muslim?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, he was Muslim. Very like people would call him a nominal Muslim. Right. Because he didn't really like live out his Muslim belief.

[Ben Garrett]

The old Jack Muslim.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But like as I've grown up, I don't think there is such thing as a nominal Muslim when it comes down to it. Because even those who are not practicing rightly when it comes down to it, they're going to choose themselves over everybody else to like the worst degree. And they will explain away their sins by simply stating like, well, God's using me as a sword of vengeance against you through my sin against you, my son. Yeah, it's just. Wow, it's wild just like how that goes. See Ibrahim and his works, like he explains it really well. Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Raymond Ibrahim.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Like he explains it very well. But so I just explained everything away through like, oh, I was just having a rough time. Maybe it's figments of my imagination. But as I grew up and I met my wife, she's dealt with some like spiritual stuff and, and she's all like a lot of the stories that she's told me, I'm like, hey, that kind of like sounds similar to what like I've experienced. But I still was like skeptical. Attending Refuge and like hearing some of the stories that you guys, guys have talked about on Haunted Cosmos. It got me to a point where it's like there's like hundreds of people who have experienced these things.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And I'm like, maybe there is some weight to this.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

You know, and so now I've gone from skepticism to like full fledged like, yeah, spiritual things are a real thing. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But in that house, the first thing that I experienced was like my, my mom, she put me down for bed and in our parents bedroom they were like having people over and you know, just laid Down. And I was. I was supposed to be sleeping. And I just remember waking up to, like, dogs barking really loudly, right? And I just look down, like, at my. Towards, like, the foot of the bed. And there was like, three undead dogs just, like, snarling at me. Like, they got, like, drippings from their mouths.

[Ben Garrett]

You're awake.

[Thomas Desell]

Like, I'm awake, dude. Like, I look back and I'm like, was I asleep? I'm not sure. But, like, now that I'm like, as I've gotten more convinced of the spiritual side of things, like, no, I was like full fledged awake. Like, and I had that, like, dreaded feeling that you guys have talked about on Haunted Cosmos, where it's like I couldn't move. Like, I couldn't just get up and like, out of bed. Like, that's what would have made sense, I guess, like, in that moment as a child. But I was, like, frozen in fear. Snarling dogs, feeling the heat of their breath at my feet. And then I. I thought my mom was, like, laying next to me the whole time. Like, I felt a weight in the bed while I was sleeping. And, you know, because that's how it started, you know, like, she put me to bed. She was laying next to me, helped me fall asleep. I was very young. I was like three or four. And when I, like, turned to, like, grab my mom to be like, like, help me kind of thing, it was an. It wasn't undead, but it was like, it was like a dead woman. Like, fully dead. Oh. Not moving. And I was like, terrified. And I just. It went from me screaming to, like, in bed, laying down. And suddenly I was like, standing in the hallway with my mom, right? So I don't know if I, like, fell asleep again, but, like, at some point I got. I was able to get out of bed and walk to the hallway. I remember just like, bawling and she's, you know, kneeling next to me, trying to, like, console me. And I couldn't even say what was happening because I was like, this is terrifying.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And she tried taking me back to the bedroom and I, like, refused. Like, I was like, I am never going.

[Brian Sauve]

There's a dead lady and three undead, snarling dogs.

[Thomas Desell]

I got like, this is.

[Brian Sauve]

I'm not doing it.

[Thomas Desell]

This was, like, too intense. And like, ever since then I've, like, had fears of, like, the dark and just being alone. And I could not, not sleep with my mom for years. Really?

[Brian Sauve]

To this day. No, to this. Describe these dogs a little bit. Like, what. What are we. What are we talking here? What do they look like they were like you said like undead how?

[Thomas Desell]

Like they were like picture like, like imagine like zombie dogs. Okay. Right. And they were just like frothing mouths. They're kind of like those like skinnier dogs.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

You know like off of, you know like was it, was it Alpha off of Up? Right.

[Brian Sauve]

Were they, were they per capita dogs, the pit bulls or were they.

[Ben Garrett]

Well no, Alpha was, Alpha was like

[Brian Sauve]

I haven't seen this movie. I just wanted to make the joke Alpha and Up.

[Ben Garrett]

I actually do know what you're talking about. I thought. I didn't. Wow. Oh, you've never seen up?

[Brian Sauve]

Like maybe once, 10 years.

[Thomas Desell]

I don't remember.

[Ben Garrett]

Up is an amazing movie. Anyway, Alpha was like, he was like. What do you call like a Doberman? Yeah, you know like, like.

[Brian Sauve]

Oh, a Doberman.

[Ben Garrett]

That's a per capita dog.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah, it's another one of them.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But yeah, it was like they were like Dobermans. Right. And they were just like undead. Like you could see their ribs, like partial piece of the ribs but they still had like their skin on them. Yeah. And their eyes were like on fire.

[Ben Garrett]

Okay.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

I've described them as like hellhounds, like carcross. Like it was like. It was.

[Brian Sauve]

Leave it to Ben.

[Thomas Desell]

It was just absolutely terrifying. Yeah. Is all I remember. Yeah. And the lady next to me was, she was, she was a corpse. That's like she didn't move.

[Brian Sauve]

Okay.

[Thomas Desell]

And it was just like no eyes staring at me.

[Ben Garrett]

That is truly.

[Thomas Desell]

And I was like what is happening?

[Brian Sauve]

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[Ben Garrett]

At Hana Cosmos we know that a lot of our listeners are business owners and entrepreneurs that are working to advance Christendom. One of those listeners is Nathan Rose with Rose Solutions. He provides website design, maintenance and security. His mission is to promote the business of Christendom by building website websites for like minded entrepreneurs. If you or someone you know is looking for help with your website, get a consultation with Nathan by visiting cosmos websites.com. tell him you're a listener of Hana Cosmos to learn how you could get your first six months of hosting and security for free. That reminds me of the. There was one. It was like a Puritan story or something where this lady was having sleep paralysis. And for some reason I'm trying to remember the story, her husband left. He, like, had to go deal with something in the pasture in the middle of the night. Like, there were dogs barking and wolves and something like. And so he had to go make sure that the sheep were okay or something like that. And she started having sleep paralysis. And then the thing that calmed her down was she was still, like, stuck, and she was awake, but she couldn't say anything. She couldn't move. But she felt the depression of her husband getting back into the bed, and that was, like, comforting. And it eventually helped her just fall back asleep. But she never checked, right, to make sure it was actually her husband.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Always checked. Yeah. And then she woke up in the morning and turned over, and her husband still wasn't there, and there was no one there, but there was the depression of someone there. And then the depression got up and left. I remember this story. And, like, the bed moved as if someone got up. And it's like.

[Thomas Desell]

It's like that.

[Ben Garrett]

Like. Like these. These. These beings that are.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Laying next to you. Yeah. Oh, dude.

[Thomas Desell]

What got me to, like, think that was, like, it was just a nightmare, was that there was people in the house, and so. And these dogs were loud and, like, just snarling.

[Brian Sauve]

And they didn't hear it.

[Thomas Desell]

And they didn't hear it. Like, they would. They would have come up. And my mom came up, and she was, like, acting like nothing happened. Yeah. You know, like, why are you freaking out? What? Like, she's trying to console me. And so what made me convinced that maybe now, like, maybe that was a real thing, was that as I've been listening to you guys's podcast and having conversations with my wife and with you guys about the things that you. You all have experienced or other people have experienced was this idea of, like, this, like, bubble of, like, sound that, like, no one can hear outside of it. And that, like, that feeling of absolute dread where you feel, like, paralyzed. You can't move.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And that's when. Sometimes when you experience these spiritual things, it's almost as if it's like a certain spot just gets kind of, like, excluded where other people can experience it.

[Ben Garrett]

It's like its own little parallel world.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

I think it's. I mean, technically, then this is like, a hypnagogic event which is related to sleep. Like, before or after sleep paralysis is a hypnagogic thing. And One of the things I've wondered about, because you hear these stories, there are thousands and thousands of thousands of very credible people who have experienced this studies, have attempted to stimulate certain parts of the brain and recreate some of this stuff. People hang up their hat on a lot of the few studies where they can make people feel a presence or say, there's someone here and then move the person by stimulating parts of the brain, but they can't replicate the whole thing. And it makes me wonder if the mechanism of this type of thing is not merely physical, but is one of the powers or tactics of the enemy of the demonic of Satan to terrorize related to the thoughts of a person to where Satan is. Because we're told to take every thought captive. It seems like the spiritual war includes the ability of unclean spirits to influence thoughts of people or attempt to. And so I've always wondered about that. Because if you said like, oh, it happened in the person's head, even if that was true, that doesn't mean that it's not a real spiritual phenomenon, right? Yeah, it actually could be either. It could be this, like, yeah, there's some weird thing we don't know about, or that the mechanism itself is Satan tyrannizing people or terrorizing people through this mechanism of horror.

[Ben Garrett]

It's also worth noting the spiritual state of the household itself where your father is a Muslim. And also just even speaking in terms of his civil activity, a bad person, he. He's doing things that are wicked and he's letting that wickedness in. It's like, it does make sense that, you know, we've talked about how weird it is that like the Mothman wanted to be invited into people's homes and how when that invitation is there, it's sort of like this playground for the demons, where even a household and a family that's supposed to be safe, supposed to be guarded, can become the haunt in the wilderness. Did now when you. So you're. You're noticing these dogs. Yeah, they're terrifying you. There's this woman next to you terrifying you. And then you just like snapped to. In the hallway.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, I just like kind of snapped to the hallway. I don't remember. I don't know if it's like, I don't remember because I was so young, but I was in the hallway. I just remember standing at the top of the stairs just bawling my eyes out and my mom is there, you know, and I was like, I was in bed. Yeah, before. And so it was. I don't Know what happened in between there?

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

All if I had the courage. I don't think I did. I don't think I had the courage

[Brian Sauve]

to get out of there.

[Thomas Desell]

I'm being honest. And. Which was like, what's really curious to me to like looking back at that is that that room was like my safe space for when bad things would happen.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

So like when my mom, you know, and my father were like getting into arguments or my father would come home and like just. He would literally just start wailing on like my siblings, my older siblings. I would just run and hide underneath the bed of my parents because there was this little. The bed had like a headrest that was also dueling as like cupboards and stuff. So I could hide underneath the bed and get into this little nook that was underneath the headrest that I could just feel like that's where I felt the most safe.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And I no longer could go into that room after that.

[Ben Garrett]

It's interesting how like the, you know, the experience also coincides with your age. And what would be hyper impressionable for. I mean, it'd be impressionable for anybody, but especially someone so young. And how it, like the thing that it's doing is it's poking holes in that sense of safety and confidence that you had in that room. It's like, look, even here, you know, you're not, you're not free, you're not safe here. You should still be afraid of all these things. And we've talked before on the graveyard shift about how powerful a tool fear is and sowing confusion and just despair. But especially in children.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah, it's crazy. So what happened next?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, so after that, I couldn't go back into that room. Years went by, a couple years probably. I was five. Right. My oldest sister, she used to like babysit us, you know, she's a lot older than me. Don't know exactly by how much, but quite, quite a good amount of years. She was like in her teens and

[Ben Garrett]

I was, you know, five.

[Thomas Desell]

I was like five. Yeah. And so she was old enough to like take care of us. Well, she's supposed to take care of us. Is that the idea? And this story will tell you how well she did. But like, you know, she was like on the heavier set stuff side, you know, like her. Her name is Fatima. My older brother would make fun of her and call her Fat Emma.

[Brian Sauve]

Okay. I wasn't, I wasn't going to say it. People are saying, I just other people

[Thomas Desell]

like just you a picture. She wasn't like obese or anything, but like she was definitely.

[Ben Garrett]

This story so far it's just been

[Brian Sauve]

three minutes of how fat your sister was and negligent as a baby. It's like a meme. Hey, I found a picture of your sister.

[Ben Garrett]

They called her Fat Emma.

[Thomas Desell]

Okay, well, like, like it. I'm just kind of setting up like she, you know, like she took some of the criticism she was trying to work out. Right. And so we went across. Across the street of where our town home was. There was a park. And so she took us. Took me across the street while she's supposed to be watching me. Sets me down like on a playground and tells me to play and sets me on a swing, you know, And I'm just like, by myself. And she goes for a run, like for like 20 minutes by myself.

[Ben Garrett]

Just like away, away.

[Thomas Desell]

This is like the like early 2000s.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah, it was, that was. You know what? That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. She goes for a run, right. And it's like middle of the day. It's not quite like, it's not quite like lunchtime, but it's not quite evening either. Right. My. My mom's at work, my dad's at work. Right. Supposedly. That's what we were told anyway.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Pretty sure he's doing other stuff.

[Brian Sauve]

Work.

[Thomas Desell]

Like he was working. Not legally.

[Ben Garrett]

Ah, yes.

[Brian Sauve]

He was working on getting put in prison.

[Thomas Desell]

He was. He was probably selling drugs, like just.

[Brian Sauve]

He was in commerce.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Nominal Muslim.

[Brian Sauve]

That's not really that nominal.

[Thomas Desell]

I mean, my point exactly. But yeah, she. She went for a run and suddenly like 20 minutes later she comes back, like completely like terrified out of her mind. And she's like, get up, get up. And like grabs me and runs across this highway. Like that's basically that because I said it was across the street from the townhouse. That road is like. It's not like, it's a really busy road.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Out in West Valley and it could be considered a Highway.

[Brian Sauve]

Like 45, 55 mile an hour speed limit type of thing.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Wow.

[Thomas Desell]

And so runs across that street, takes us home, and she like begins telling our parents when they get home and my brother when he. When he gets home from school. Right. That she saw like this man in a hat right behind a fence that would just like stand there and just stare at her. And she like got fed up with it, you know, Cuz she was like creeped out, terrified, you know, talking about this dreaded feeling she was h. Having and like started calling at this guy to like knock it Off. And then he started running towards him, like, jumping the fence. And so she, like, freaked out and just ran. And for the longest time, my brother, he was, like, wanting to go over there to see it, you know? He was like, like, I'm interested. I want to know this. I, like, I want to fight this thing, you know?

[Brian Sauve]

Classic boy, girl response.

[Thomas Desell]

Yes.

[Brian Sauve]

She runs. He's like, I will fight this hat man. Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Which is funny because he's hard, man. He's a coward. But he was just, like, super intrigued.

[Brian Sauve]

Talking big game, right?

[Thomas Desell]

Talking a big game. And so finally, they, like, hack up, hatch up a plan together, because my parents weren't just gonna let them go. Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Go fight the hat man.

[Thomas Desell]

Go fight the hat man. Right? And so they're like, oh, we'll take. We'll take our little brother, you know, like, I can't say Thomas, because my name was changed when I was adopted, like, when I got saved. Yeah. So it was like, we're gonna take, you know, our little brother, and we'll take him across the street to, you know, the playground. And, you know, and it's me late at night, right? It's, like, getting close to fourth of July kind of season, but, like, it's gonna be late at night, you know, like, oh, we'll just. You know, we'll just want to spend time with our little brother.

[Brian Sauve]

Right?

[Thomas Desell]

They did not want to spend time, right? They. They literally left beyond that playground again.

[Brian Sauve]

Like, now it's like, fat M. Now it's really negative.

[Thomas Desell]

Now it's like, it's nighttime.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, yeah. Dark.

[Thomas Desell]

It's night dark. And I'm by myself on a playground.

[Brian Sauve]

Like, this is little. Little Thomas on the swing. This is fine.

[Ben Garrett]

It's like squeak behind.

[Thomas Desell]

It's like, squeak of like, why am I here by myself?

[Ben Garrett]

So they went to find the hot.

[Thomas Desell]

They went to go find this hatman guy. And at the time, like, hearing this story, like, it took years to realize and connect the dots of, like, the hatman story.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Me. It's just like, this guy in a hat, right? And so there they went, off to go look for him. And again, 20 minutes, 30 minutes go by, and they, like, come booking. My brother is like. Like, my sister was terrified. He's even more terrified, and he's out running my older sister.

[Ben Garrett]

Well, not that hard. Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But, like, he's, like, leagues away, like, leaving her behind.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

He talks a big game. I'm gonna fight the freaking half man. Get me out there.

[Ben Garrett]

But in the back of his head, he's just Like, I know I can out.

[Brian Sauve]

And he's like, if he gets my sister, that'll slow him down and I'll get away.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, exactly. And so like. But this time they're screaming, that's a knife. He got a knife kind of thing. And like he literally like is running. Just grabs me and I'm small enough.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

You know? Yeah. He just like picks me up and runs across the busy street in the middle of the night. Doesn't even look like. He just like goes right. People like cars are stopping and stuff. We get home and they're freaking out. My, my mother is pissed because she's like, you just left your brother for like 20 minutes and there's a man chasing you with it.

[Brian Sauve]

So you. They, you know, they immediately narcked.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

The whole story comes out.

[Thomas Desell]

The whole story comes out and they're just like. They saw the guy again. Same fence, same chain link fence, but this time he's standing there and he's just like, like he's brandishing a knife in front of him, gleaming in the light, basically. And it's dark. So like he's just getting like these little glances of light from like the poles on the, in the park and just like shining it. And he's like, my brother is all like trying to talk again. A big game is like, what were you going to do? Kind of stuff and like egging the guy on.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Smart.

[Thomas Desell]

And then again, very like weirdly just like starts booking it towards them, hops the fence like almost instantly and they're like just gone.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

You know, they just get completely terrified and run. Dude.

[Ben Garrett]

It's like Spring heel Jack.

[Brian Sauve]

It actually is kind of like.

[Ben Garrett]

It's a lot like Spring Heeled Jack, like jumping the fence.

[Brian Sauve]

Just, just the jumping, not really doing

[Ben Garrett]

much to anybody, but.

[Brian Sauve]

But scaring the crap out of them,

[Ben Garrett]

just scaring the living daylights out of.

[Brian Sauve]

There was a. There was a story that I heard from this couple and they had experienced it directly. They had like a little girl. They were in their bedroom at night and their little girl was like out the door, down the hall on the left or something. And then if you had gone out the door and then before you got to the room, there were stairs down to the first level of their house. And the man woke up. It was kind of a hypnagogic event, but he wasn't paralyzed, it wasn't sleep paralysis. And he sees this dark face just peek out from behind the door. Dude.

[Ben Garrett]

See that?

[Brian Sauve]

And then peek back and like the hands are long and spindly.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Okay.

[Ben Garrett]

All right. And the face is, like, way up at the. The top of the.

[Brian Sauve]

It's like a long. And he's. He is like, mid story. Let me. But what happened? Just wait.

[Thomas Desell]

That wasn't it.

[Ben Garrett]

I'm sorry.

[Brian Sauve]

That wasn't it.

[Thomas Desell]

He's like, I'm still cooking.

[Brian Sauve]

So he wakes his w. His. It was. Unfortunately, they were fornicating. Don't fornicate or the devil will get you. And his girlfriend wakes up. And both of them here. It was like a wooden, creaky kind of situation. They heard the steps creaking down. And Evan, if you don't sound designed this really good. Like, Ben's fired. And they're going down the step. They hear the steps down, but then all of a sudden they just hear sprinting up the stairs. And they both get up. They're running because it goes not to their bedroom, but towards their daughter's bedroom. Yeah. And they both get up and they run into the room. They hear. Before they get there, they hear their daughter start wailing. And they wake her up, and she's covered in scratches. What? Scratches? There is a strong streak of hat man or. Yeah, black, like, kind of people shadow person stories that result in two things very oddly. Scratches or strangulation. Those are like, the two things that the hat man love or the shadow people love to do to people, which is scratch them up or strangle them.

[Thomas Desell]

Well, that's a. Another thing, too, is that every time they tell. They have told the story, they cannot see his face. He's like a dark figure.

[Brian Sauve]

Okay.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

See, I was going to ask.

[Ben Garrett]

I was going to ask if he smiled.

[Thomas Desell]

And all they could do was see that he was wearing a hat. Like, that's this, like. It was like a silhouette of a man. But the only distinction that, like, made it, like, like, very distinct. Like, he had a hat on.

[Ben Garrett]

Did you.

[Brian Sauve]

He's always got that hat. Where did he get that hat? Who'd he get it from? Did he lose a golden fiddle contest?

[Ben Garrett]

What kind of hat?

[Brian Sauve]

The second place prize was a hat.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, it was like a football.

[Brian Sauve]

It was the devil.

[Ben Garrett]

No.

[Thomas Desell]

And then, like, my wife has, like, tons of hat man stories.

[Ben Garrett]

Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And she's, like, telling me these stories. I'm like, I have one.

[Brian Sauve]

The.

[Ben Garrett]

It reminds me of that mothman adjacent story that we recently did for I. Which I don't.

[Brian Sauve]

They haven't heard it yet.

[Ben Garrett]

It depends on whether or not it's come out yet where this graveyard shift lands. But it was like, two boys, they're walking in Jersey City and they're just. It's like downtown, you know, they're next to the interstate, the Jersey Pass. And they walk through this intersection and across, like diagonal ways. Across the intersection is this fence keeping people from going up to the Jersey Pass or Jersey Turnpike. And they see this really tall hatted figure. Behatted figure. And he is just staring at him. And he's really like, just looks not right. You know, they can see his face. The difference is they can see his face, but it was really pale. And then he just like smiles at him. That creepy, uncanny smile that goes from ear to ear.

[Thomas Desell]

That's so weird.

[Ben Garrett]

And so they book it. You know, it's a lot like your brother. They're like, I'm not trying to hang around. If I can outrun fat Emma, I'm good. So they book it, dude. But later they found out that there was a woman who lived in some of the apartment buildings that were close by who got chased by an abnormal, like witnesses said, an abnormally tall man who was wearing a hat and was like smiling from ear to ear, chasing the woman with a knife down the alleyway. No one knows what happened to the woman. And it was in Jersey.

[Brian Sauve]

She was like, you guys, you guys, get back here. Use kids.

[Thomas Desell]

Dude, that was the worst.

[Ben Garrett]

We're better at foreign accents. We're better at foreign accents.

[Thomas Desell]

Oh, come back here.

[Ben Garrett]

Hey, homie, get back here.

[Brian Sauve]

We continue to get one star reviews on. On a Cosmos saying, I love everything, but the accents have to stop. I'm letting you know right now, they're not going to stop.

[Ben Garrett]

People that say that don't have accent.

[Brian Sauve]

Listen, Listen to less funny people.

[Thomas Desell]

I am the accent enjoyer. Yeah. When I was in the podcast.

[Ben Garrett]

A real one. Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

It's so.

[Thomas Desell]

I appreciate it.

[Ben Garrett]

They couldn't see the guy's face. Now, the weird thing about that, I want people to make sure they remember this detail from the story. Good use of detail. Thank you. The first time fat Emma saw this thing was in the middle of the day.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

And she still. His face was just blacked out.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Now just couldn't see his face.

[Ben Garrett]

Could have been the shadow from the hat brim. Okay. Could have also been not the shadow from the hat brim, but it's just not a discernible face.

[Thomas Desell]

Well, like the day too. It was like that dusk. It wasn't like really light outside either. So it was cloudy and it was very dim. And she was very adamant that, like, she could not make out any true features from this man.

[Brian Sauve]

Dude, it was the gloaming, Right?

[Ben Garrett]

How tall is this fence?

[Thomas Desell]

It was, like, over 6ft tall.

[Ben Garrett]

Big fence.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, it's like a. It's like one of those fences where it's like. It was like the fence was up because that. There was a house there, you know? Yeah. This park is surrounded by houses. Right. And so it's tall enough to where it's like, balls can't just easily get.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, it's a privacy fence.

[Thomas Desell]

You know, it's a privacy fence. You could see through it because it's chain link.

[Ben Garrett]

Of course. Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But it's like one of those, like, stay on my yard kind of.

[Brian Sauve]

Turns out it's just that guy's house. Yeah, he just lives there. Get out of my house, kids. I'll threaten you with a knife.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, but it was just weird because it was, like, just standing there and she was, like, running, like, doing her laps. And like, she felt like it was looking at her, but she couldn't make

[Ben Garrett]

out eyes, so she passed it multiple times.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Dude, did anything else happen to you?

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, well, like, directly going directly after that. Yeah. Like, I never saw that. The hat man. Right. Like, in those two stories.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But ever since then, you know, like, up until I got saved, was we would be, like, going for rides in the car, you know, and this was even after we moved away from that West Valley house. But we would be in rides in the car, and I would see, like, a dark figure in a hat, just, like, in a tree. In a tree next. Next to a tree next to a house kind of thing. Like, corner of my eye as we're zooming by, and I would look and, like, nothing's there, you know, like, just these. And then we would be in, like, grocery stores, and I'd see a figure, and at the. Out of the corner of my eye, a dark figure and a. I'd look and I'd be like, was that, like, what my brother saw? What my sister saw? Is it a figment in my imagination? You know, And I just constantly was like, it was a dark time in my life. Maybe it's just. I was just terrified, you know, Like, I was just constantly scared, child. Because of the state I was in.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

But at the same time as you were saying, like, because of that, maybe, you know, looking back, like, maybe there was just something to that. There was like, a spirit. Lingering.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Of classic shadow people behavior.

[Brian Sauve]

Oh, yeah. They're always lingering.

[Ben Garrett]

It's funny, too. There's like a whole trope in horror movies of the, the thing, it looks like a person, but it's a little bit. Not quite right. The uncanny valley. I'll avoid using the word uncanny anymore in this episode. I use it too much. But. And how you just keep seeing it and it's like it's following you and maybe every once in a while it gets a little bit closer and then it gets a little bit closer and then it gets a little bit closer. And there's this, there's, you know, people try to psychologize it away as like. Well, it's the fear of our own destruction or ego death or it's the. It's just the irrational fear that we have of being followed in the world and having a sense that we're being watched. Okay. At the same time, we do have a sense for being watched. That's something that has been proven over and over again. And sure, that sense can be manipulated and played with, but that actually to me can lend credence to this whole phenomenon of the shadow people. Because if it can be manipulated, then it can be manipulated. And that means it can be manipulated by the forces of darkness as well. And it's just more and more fear, more and more fear, more and more despair. More looking over your shoulder. No, just looking at what's in front of you and being there and noticing the truth of what you're actually seeing with your eyes. Always wondering like, well, what's this fear phantom thing that I'm seeing? And how that can distract you from normalcy and from your own sin.

[Brian Sauve]

And the reality is Utah is a land that has never been uniquely among the continental US never been predominantly or overwhelmingly Christian in its whole history. So it went from the Navajo Ute demons of the Native American demon worshiping peoples to Mormons and, you know, the Mormon problems. And it's never been overwhelmingly Christian. So in a lot of ways, it's the land that hasn't been cleansed of its unclean spirits.

[Ben Garrett]

And the funny thing about the Mormon thing is they're worshiping a false God, but they're doing it in a way that's very whitewashed to me, where everything looks very good on the outside.

[Brian Sauve]

Angel of light.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. World facing, it's all like, look how shiny and happy we are as people.

[Brian Sauve]

It looks fair but feels foul.

[Ben Garrett]

Yes. Servants of the enemy indeed. But that might also help explain why so much of it is like, it's a little bit behind the curtain, like some of these more overt things. It's even like the temple. Like, you see Mormonism from the exterior but so many of their rights are hidden from you. And it's very esoteric in that way, like freemasonry and stuff. But. Yeah, that's. That's interesting.

[Thomas Desell]

Last story I have from this house was. It's super off topic compared to the other stories, but we were all hanging out, like, me and my family inside the kitchen, and suddenly, like, the lights, like, start changing different colors. Like, like reds, blues, greens kind of thing. And we don't have, like, those type of lights. And we saw the same type of colors that were flashing inside the house, outside, out in the sky, and was, like, an object flying across the sky. And we all saw it. Like, we were all there, and we, like, stood outside, like, on our little porch, like, in the back of the town home, and we watch it fly across the sky, and we're all like, that was really weird. I wonder what that was. You know, like, maybe it was like some US Government, like, yeah, thing. Who knows? And it happened for, like, 30 seconds, and then everything was normal. But was like. Was that like. Like, for the longest time, I always thought, like, did I see aliens? Like, what. What was that?

[Brian Sauve]

That's in the sky. Eyes.

[Ben Garrett]

How big were the lights?

[Thomas Desell]

Like, in the sky? Yeah. I couldn't tell because it was so far away, but it was, like, close enough. It was, like, close enough to see that, like, there was flashing lights.

[Ben Garrett]

Could have been a plane.

[Thomas Desell]

Could. Could have been a plane, but it was like, I've never seen a plane flash so many colors.

[Ben Garrett]

Oh, it was, like, a lot of different colors.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, it was, like, a lot of different colors.

[Brian Sauve]

Red and. And some, like, blue.

[Thomas Desell]

There was, like, red, white, blue, green, purple. It was like, all.

[Brian Sauve]

And you've seen those in your. The room before.

[Thomas Desell]

You saw inside the house. It was all the lights, like, in the kitchen.

[Ben Garrett]

But it was far enough away to where the lights from the craft wouldn't have just been coming into the house.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Like, it was too far for that.

[Thomas Desell]

Like, we were looking at, like, our lights in the kitchen turn, and they were turning colors. That's weird.

[Brian Sauve]

Very strange. I had no reference. I've never heard a story like that.

[Thomas Desell]

That was.

[Brian Sauve]

It's very strange.

[Ben Garrett]

I was thinking, oh, the lights went off. It's like poltergeist.

[Thomas Desell]

But that's what was weird to me is, like, we all saw it.

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And we're all like, that was super strange. But then it was like everybody just kind of blew it off, you know, like, didn't. Like, I didn't hear.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

I was also, like, really young. I Was like, five. And so no one really talked to me about it.

[Brian Sauve]

They were like, he's five.

[Thomas Desell]

He's five years.

[Brian Sauve]

He's got nothing to add. Yeah, I get it, dude. I got it.

[Thomas Desell]

I have no skin in the game, right?

[Brian Sauve]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

I don't know if they talked about it amongst themselves later. Once.

[Ben Garrett]

Once you're in bed, it's like, okay, guys, now we can dish now.

[Thomas Desell]

But it was just like. To me, it was like, was forgotten for the longest time.

[Ben Garrett]

Very strange that I. That reminds me a little bit of some of the Devil's Den stuff. What was the guy's name? Do you remember?

[Brian Sauve]

Terry.

[Ben Garrett]

Terry Lovelace. Yeah, Terry. The first, like, UFO encounter that he remembers was when he was camping with his friend. And one of the things that really marks that case was they were sitting there, they're around the campfire, and then the lights show up on the horizon, and they just keep coming up.

[Thomas Desell]

And they.

[Ben Garrett]

They described it as being entranced. Like they. They weren't thinking anything of it. They were just noticing it, but they couldn't notice anything else. They couldn't look away. And that's exactly how it felt. Yeah. And then, too, like, that happened to him. He claims in his book that something similar happened to him as a child, where he was playing in his backyard, and he looks up in the sky, and it's middle of the day, Middle of the day, Alfred, not very subtle. And he sees a black UFO in the sky. And it's just there for what he describes as five seconds. And he's just looking at it for the five seconds. But minutes go by and his mom looks out and sees him staring up at the sky, comes back 20 minutes later, and he's still there in the same spot. And she rushes out the door. And right when he heard the door slam is when he stopped looking at the thing. But to him, it had been five seconds. But to her, she had watched him intermittently staring up in the sky for upwards of 20, 25 minutes. And he never really had any reference for that until later on when he started to apparently remember all these things, allegedly. But that is one of the interesting things about his case. And then similar thing happened to the Betty and Barney Hill case, where they're driving and they have missing time. But part of what makes their case so terrifying is that they're just. They're stopped in the middle of the road by this massive orb that's blocking the way, and they just don't care about it. Like, they're noticing it and nothing else.

[Brian Sauve]

Oddly apathetic yeah.

[Ben Garrett]

Oddly apathetic. Oddly calm. They're just. I guess we'll just wait for this. This thing to get out of our way. And eventually it does. And then after that, they start to notice all these markings on their body and the missing time and things like that.

[Brian Sauve]

It's just very.

[Ben Garrett]

It's really weird how sometimes these things can. Can be interconnected.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. What's, like. What makes me think about, like, the situation I was in was like, the oddly apathetic. Yeah, that's exactly how it felt. But I don't remember missing time or anything like that. But nobody just. It was just like it happened and then move on.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

I think, like, we just went about the rest of the night, you know, like, as if nothing super strange just happened.

[Ben Garrett]

And especially looking back, you're like, no, that was. That was wrong.

[Thomas Desell]

That was weird.

[Ben Garrett]

Like, the lights shouldn't have done that. The light, like a plane wouldn't have those colored lights. That was like something was off.

[Thomas Desell]

Why were we not talking about this for, like, years?

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

And like, even now, like, it barely gets brought up, you know.

[Ben Garrett]

That's so weird.

[Thomas Desell]

And so that was like, the last story I had, like, at that house.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

Shortly after that, my mom gets a divorce with my biological father, and she starts dating a Christian man. And she comes to Christ. Through that, we move from that house and we end up living, like, he lets us live in his trailer and he goes and lives with his mom kind of thing for a time. And after that, like, no more spiritual, like, weird stuff ever happened to me again. And then as I got saved too, it's like I had, like, these spiritual moments. And so I was. Tried to become, like. I wasn't trying to become like a ghost hunter, but, like, me and my friends that I grew up with, we would go actively out to, like, cemeteries, you know, go try to see and experience weird spiritual stuff. But at this point, I'm saved. I'm a Christian. My dad, like, prays over our house all the time. He just says, like, God, like, guard our house with, like, a legion of angels and stuff like that. So he's always constantly, like, saying this prayer to us, telling me, you know, like. Because I'm like a bottle of fear, basically. Like, it's a problem where I'm, like, constantly having to sleep with my mom on the floor or near her kind of thing. And one of the things that he would do to, like, try to, like, get this, you know, this issue that I had was to remind me that, like, I'm God's. Now that we are a home of. Of Christ and that I'm protected not just by him, but by, you know, by God and his legion of angels who are covering me. And it took some time, but eventually, like, I was like, became less and less afraid all the time whenever the lights went off or whenever I was alone. And so as that time went on and, you know, he talked to me about, like, just, you know, have, like, a clear mind, you know, just some things can be explained away just by, like, wind or. Or whatever. Don't just be terrified of everything you hear and just use some reason, you know, like, you're going to be okay. Like, nothing bad is going to happen to you. I'm gonna protect you. God's protecting you. And as that went on, and I would go out to these, like, you know, like, little ghost hunts with my friends that night because we were just left unattended.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Way more than naturally.

[Thomas Desell]

Way more than I should have.

[Brian Sauve]

It was the early 2000s.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, it was. It was.

[Brian Sauve]

We were all unattended.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah. And so, you know, we would go to friends houses to have a sleepover and then, like, sneak out, like, go to the graveyard and try to, like, have spooky moments. And my friends would be like, dude, I went to this, like, cave and like, I saw like, this orb and stuff, and I was, like, terrified. Like, come with me, you know, like, let's experience this together. And they would get really upset whenever I'd go with them. And it's not like they were, like, mad at me for, like, me, but they were like, dude, every time you come, nothing happens at all.

[Brian Sauve]

Crisis. And it's like, Jesus Christ is the lord of spirits. And he was like, not today. Even though my silliest, dumbest soldier is trying to go ghost hunting, I'm not going to let it work.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah, that's right. They would just describe themselves, like, not insult you. No, you're good. Like, I agree.

[Brian Sauve]

Yes, but I did.

[Thomas Desell]

But it's just so funny because they'd go and they'd tell me about these stories and be like, how terrified they felt and. And they're like, dude, like, I like it that you come because, like, I'm not as terrified, you know, Like, I feel a lot. Yeah, like. Like you give off a good, like, positive energy, you know, like, you're really encouraging in that sense.

[Brian Sauve]

It's the Holy Spirit.

[Thomas Desell]

But at the same time, they're like, I hate when you come because nothing ever happens. We just kind of hang out.

[Brian Sauve]

I keep trying to get possessed By a demon. And it doesn't work.

[Ben Garrett]

Dude, we were. We were. That. That weirdly reflected reminds me of on Saturday of time of recording this past Saturday. We were all hanging out at my house with, like, my wife and the kids. We were all there, and I was downstairs coming upstairs, and I heard my wife look at my oldest. And she was like, what did you just say? And he goes, I said that that place has a good energy. And she was like, where did you learn to say that? We don't say that. Where did you learn to say that? And he was like, you. Gandalf says it in the Hobbit. And she goes. And she goes, well, he was wrong to say that.

[Brian Sauve]

She's correcting, like a myar.

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Dude, your wife is so based. She's like, you get stoned to death too, because you're a wizard.

[Ben Garrett]

She was like, abner, it's the Holy Spirit. It's not a good energy.

[Brian Sauve]

So good.

[Thomas Desell]

But it's funny because, like, I remember one time we went to a friend's house and he was talking about how his house is haunted, right? And we were spending the night, and I eventually fell asleep. It was like, super late. But my two friends, they stayed up and they were talking about how, like, you know, they were trying to, like, like, interact with the spirit that's in the house. And, like, furniture was moving, lights were flickering. I'm asleep, right? None of. I didn't see any of this here. And this is all just spoken to me, you know, because they see that things flip over cards that they laid out get flipped over kind of thing. And they're like, it's not wind because all the doors are closed. You know, windows are closed. Like, they're. They're just like, adamant, like, it's happening. And so they, like, rush up because they're like, dude, finally, like, he can experience this with us. And he's like, wake him up. You know? And so they come, they wake me up, and I'm like, all right, let's. Let's go. And at the time, I'm super skeptical about all this stuff. Come. Like, it's not real, right? Get down there. And they're like, it's gone. Like that, that dread.

[Brian Sauve]

Dude, you're. We're a wet blank.

[Thomas Desell]

Like. Like, we would go downstairs and like, dude, that feeling of dread is gone. Nothing's happening. It's your fault. Like, Thomas, can you just go to sleep?

[Ben Garrett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Desell]

So we can have fun.

[Ben Garrett]

Call your mom and have her come pick you up.

[Thomas Desell]

Wow. Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Thomas, thanks.

[Ben Garrett]

For coming on the show. Thank you, Thomas. Appreciate your time.

[Thomas Desell]

Yeah.

[Brian Sauve]

Hey, can I, can I take us out, dude?

[Ben Garrett]

Can I, can I take sound?

[Brian Sauve]

Can I blow your mind real quick?

[Ben Garrett]

Yes, please. Do it, Thomas.

[Brian Sauve]

Thanks for coming on. Listener, thank you so much for listening to this installment of the Graveyard Shift. We hope that it was entertaining, that these stories were fun for you, but more importantly, that you see the theme here, that the spiritual world is real. It's not something to be trifled or toyed with, but it's also because of Christ, not a thing to be filled with existential fear of, because Christ is king. He really is the Lord of the spirits. And so if you listen to this, I know we joke, we mentioned, like, this Muslim father and the sins he was committing in his home and the way that was connected to these dark spiritual events. The reality is that you live in a spiritual war, but that Christ has conquered, that the Father has put all of these unclean spirits, Satan himself, to open shame through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. And you don't have to live in fear of these things. You come to Christ, repent of your sin, put your trust in him, and you can have life in him. You can have the Holy Spirit. And he's not just a good vibe, he's literally the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in you. So thanks for listening, guys. We hope that it was edifying to you. And if you like what we do here at Hana Cosmos at a Graveyard Shift, then we'd encourage you to check out our Patreon channel too, and support the show and help us continue to make this show possible. But thanks again for listening and we hope that you have a great week.