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Want more Haunted Cosmos? Then make your way over to Patreon, where you can get early access to our content as well as exclusive content and regular dusty tomes and monthly live streams with Brian and myself. Plus, right now we're running a special offer 90% off of your first month. You heard that right. So go to patreon.com haunted cosmos and sign up now. This episode is brought to you by Jake Muller Adventures A thrilling Christian Audio Drama.
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654321 and God made the two great lights the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night and the stars. Genesis 1:16 the light in the desert sky faded. It wasn't yet fully night, but the sun was gone. In its wake lay a tide of pale blue, and a full moon glowed silver in the east. It was enough to see by, though one sight was easily deceived. Long shadows crawled across the desert floor like the tentacles of a kraken, and cacti stood like fuzzy mannequins, tricking one into believing he was being watched. A breeze moved just enough dust for one to hear it buzzing as it slid across the ground and whispered through the trunks and branches of a scrub oak. There were no people in that barren basin save two a man and his scribe. The year was 1946, and though it was the desert, the winter cold and lack of sunlight made the air sharp and biting. Everything felt expectant, as if the world around the two men was waiting for something profound to happen. The scribe sat on a rock a short distance from the man and opened his pad to record the proceedings. The man drew a circle in the sand, removed his boots, and stepped inside. He knelt and lifted his eyes toward the moon. After several focused breaths, he began to chant in Enochian keys, the esoteric language of the angels. Still gazing upward, he traced Enochian forms into the sand with the pointer finger of each hand. Then, abruptly, he stopped. The wind was swirling faster now. The scribe looked skyward and recorded flashes of light, supernovae bursting in the night. Echoes of laughter and answering divinities drifted through the wind, an unseen audience waiting to witness what would come next. The man knelt again and, taking up the chant one final time, engaged in rites of magic that need not be described here. Rest assured he performed them. Rest assured the scribe recorded them, and rest assured it seemed to both men that the celestial choir responded favorably. Left breathless and weak, the man rose from the sand and looked toward the scribe. The wind slowed to a whisper and the world resumed its ordinary form. The scribe was inquisitive he couldn't help but ask if it had worked. In reply, the man gave a tired smile and a nod of pure relief. Weeks of long and difficult magic were done. They had succeeded. The two drove out of the Mojave and back to their compound in Pasadena. Waiting for them, there was a newcomer who called herself Marjorie Cameron. The man greeted her with elation, for though she did not know it, he knew that she was the manifestation of his success only minutes prior. The incarnation of the scarlet woman. Babylon, the elemental from the stars who would conceive and bear his child, a moon child, a God child, born for the ascension of mankind to his place among the heavens. The man's name was Jack Parsons, and his is a strange story. Born in 1914, Parsons was raised in a broken but affluent household. When he was just an infant, his parents divorced, forcing him and his mother to live with her parents in their mansion outside Pasadena, California. This mixture of dysfunction and privilege made it difficult for the young Parsons to relate to others. He was dyslexic and thus perceived as dull, and his refinement made him the butt of countless jokes accusing him of being effeminate. Needless to say, he had no friends his own age for many years. What he did have were household servants who evidently cared deeply for him. Their coddling gave him room to cultivate his imagination and with it, his fascination with science fiction and rocketry. Eventually, Parsons formed what was likely the strongest friendship of his life with the boy named Edward Foreman. The two could not have been more different. On the surface, Parsons was wealthy. Foreman came from a working class family. Parsons was small and unathletic. Foreman was physically formidable. What they shared was a mutual obsession with exploration and things that went boom. They bonded over rockets, missiles and airplanes, trying to decipher their mechanics and wondering what else might be possible. At school, Foreman defended Parsons from bullies. After school, Parsons experimented with gunpowder and rudimentary rockets while Foreman watched in fascination. Even into high school, the pair kept the same routine. As they matured, so did their experiments. Parsons continued to raise the stakes in his rocketry, eventually tinkering with new fuel mixtures. This led to a growing expertise in chemistry that revealed his keen intellect to those around him. He began to fit in a little more, which was good for him. But through it all, Foreman remained his closest friend. Also in high school, Parsons developed a deepening interest in spiritualism and the occult. It's doubtful even he could have predicted the strange places these two seemingly opposed pursuits would ultimately take him. In 1931, amidst the great Depression, The Parsons fortune finally began to dwindle. Jack, still a young man, was forced to find weekend work. He landed a job at the Hercules Powder Company, a chemical and munitions manufacturer. The job not only let him contribute to his family's needs, it also let him scratch his itch for rocketry by immersing himself in the chemistry of fuel and propulsion. After a short time there, Parsons completed construction of his first solid fuel rocket engine. A few years passed. In that time, Parsons dropped out of two universities, both for financial reasons, while maintaining his job at Hercules. Then in 1934, he and Foreman attended a Caltech lecture featuring Austrian rocket engineer Eugene Sanger and a PhD student named William Bolle. Afterward, the friends approached Bolle to ask if he might aid them in developing a liquid fueled rocket engine. Already overextended, but Bolay referred them to another student, Frank Molina. The three, with Caltech's support, began industrious work on breaking the limits of contemporary rocketry. Everything was coming together now for Parsons, but few understand just what it meant. You see, Parsons interest in the occult never waned. On the contrary, it grew until it rivaled his passion for science fiction and aerospace. In his final years of schooling, these three loves merged into a kind of grand unified theory for Parsons. While others marveled at his uncanny instinct for complex rocketry, he confessed that at times during his occult rituals, he felt as though higher powers, interplanetary powers, were impressing secret knowledge upon him. These same forces, he believed, were urging him not only to build a liquid fueled rocket, but to send it beyond Earth's orbit into the heavens where they dwelt. Thus, the so called moon child he sought to create with the goddess he summoned. That night in the desert was far from disconnected from his rocketry. They were intrinsically linked. His occultism drove him to the stars. And in driving him there, it drove an entire nation as well. For Parsons succeeded in building that liquid fueled rocket. In doing so, he, he helped convince the United States to embark upon its journey into the final frontier. That's right. Much of the inspiration and potential for mankind's venture into space can be traced back to the enigmatic occultic genius of Jack Parsons. The man who believed we must reach the stars because the beings beyond them were calling us to come. All of it provokes the question, if that is the backdrop of mankind's great space race, should we have tried to go at all? What is the moon? Well, it's the lesser light made by God to rule over the night. A light for signs and seasons and days and years. But what does that mean? Certainly it's a conglomerate of materials possessing real mass. It evidently exerts a considerable influence on the Earth, governing tides, shaping weather patterns, and producing minor gravitational bulges. It shields our world from space debris that might otherwise strike her. All of that is true enough. But is it purely physical? Definitely. Maybe Perhaps even likely. Then again, could it be something more, something truly strange? In the days of the prophets, the moon was often described with apocalyptic language. At the very least, it serves as a symbolic harbinger of God's judgment, a sentinel in the sky whose shifting phases rhyme with the ever shaking foundations of the Earth. It is a signpost of divine Providence, pointing the world in whatever direction the heavens decree. The early Church fathers found in the Moon an image of the Church itself, a lesser light reflecting the true light of the risen sun upon a world still shrouded in the darkness of sin. Some took this further, imagining the moon as a kind of angelic figure keeping watch over the Earth. After all, if the stars can fight God's wars and sing his praise, Job 38:7, then perhaps the moon can do the same. Or so they wondered. This idea was expanded during the Scholastic period, when thinkers like Aquinas began to suggest that since man's dominion ends at the bounds of the Earth, the moon belongs to the first layer of the uncorrupted heavens. To men like Thomas and Albert Magnus, the moon was a silver gem of heaven that, in her effulgence, reminded God's people of the bliss awaiting them after death. The reformers, not disregarding the Scholastics, but adding their own insights, recaptured the moon as an image of the Church. Calvin was particularly struck by the words of Psalm 72, which promises that the fear of the Messiah will endure as long as the moon throughout all generations. In those words, he heard an echo of Christ's assurance to his disciples that the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church. A thread running through all this thought comes from Aquinas, who said that the realm of the sun, moon and stars, being outside of man's dominion, remains unaffected by the curse. That is fascinating enough on its own, but one of its implications is even more so. If the moon belongs to the untainted heavenly chorus, could it, the lesser governor of the sky, be governed itself by some kind of angelic? Speaking personally, I've often wondered whether there might be an angel of the moon. Now it's pure speculation, of course. Yet one reason I find the idea compelling is that it helps reconcile the moon's ubiquitous corruption in pagan religion. Nearly every ancient culture had a goddess of the Moon. Consider the Greeks. In ancient Greece, the priests saw the moon in three basic full, waxing and waning, and ascribed a different goddess to each of those forms. Selene, the peaceful and radiant embodiment of the full moon, ruled when the orb was at her brightest. Under her influence, the world was reminded of virginity's almost sacerdotal nature. In the waxing phase, the night was ruled by Artemis, the huntress and goddess of the harvest. Under her gaze, mothers prayed for fertility and blessed childbirth. Finally came the waning power of Hecate, goddess of witchcraft, night and crossroads, a power of decay and death with little blessing to be found in her. Together, these three goddesses formed a feminine tri unity within the Moon's orbit. Surely a corruption of the truth if ever there was one. Of course, a false idea does not necessarily imply a true one made of the same or similar substance. But perhaps in this case it does. Even so, the scholastic claim that the Moon remains untouched by man's corruption raises a more immediate if that's true, is it even possible for man to reach Luna's height? Jack Parsons would certainly say it's possible and that it must be done. But we have seen enough to call his judgment into question. So really, what should Christians think of it all? At 9:32am on July 16, 1969, a Saturn V rocket ignited its engines and lifted off from Cape Canaveral, Florida. Inside were three men made up the crew of the Apollo 11 mission. Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins, and Buzz Aldrin. The Saturn V remains the only vehicle ever to carry human beings beyond low Earth orbit. Armed with three engine stages and fueled by a liquid chemical mixture that evolved from Jack Parsons earlier work, it stands as the most impressive piece of aerospace technology man has ever produced. Less than three minutes into the Apollo 11 flight, the first stage engines shut down and were jettisoned while the second stage engines fired. Just over six minutes later, those engines cut off and the third stage ignited. Thus, the three intrepid explorers broke free of their homeworld's bluish glow and entered the void of the heavens. Collins, pilot of the Columbia command module, performed the burn that slingshotted the crew around Earth toward their interception point with the moon. With the burn complete, Collins separated Columbia from the Saturn V's final stage, turned it around and redocked with the lunar module eagle. Apollo 11 had cleared its first major milestone. They had successfully left Earth and her orbit and were speeding through the vacuum of darkness toward their halfway point. Three days later, Columbia arrived at the Moon. All three men gazed out of the small window at the barren wasteland beneath them, pitted with craters, plateaus and canyons. The Moon stared back with apathy. The Gatekeeper of Earth was about to become a park for three mere men. Collins burned the engine to slow Columbia until she fell into lunar orbit. For him, it was time to wait. For Armstrong and Aldrin, the real test was just beginning. As the vessel orbited the moon 30 times, Armstrong and Aldrin performed systems checks on the lunar module. Each time they passed over the surface, both men looked down and spotted their landing site far below, a blank slate of gray in a sea of alien tranquility. Finally, with all her preparations triple checked, their moment arrived. On July 20, at 5:44pm Eastern Standard Time, Neil Armstrong separated Eagle from Columbia. Collins watched as his two companions hurtled down to a new world while he waited alone, falling ceaselessly through space. Five minutes into the descent, and only 6,000ft above their lunar objective, Armstrong and Aldrin discovered they were moving too far west. They informed mission Control back on Earth that they would surely miss the planned landing site by dozens of miles. Mission Control did not consider it an issue worth correcting, told the men not to worry. Both men happily obliged. When the time came to land, however, another problem arose. The landing computer was targeting a heavily uneven boulder field at the rim of the crater. Armstrong and Aldrin knew this would endanger both their ability to land safely and to relaunch toward Columbia. Armstrong made the brave decision to assume manual control of Eagle and guide it to a safer zone. With dwindling fuel reserves and a Houston crew sweating through their shirts, Aldrin called out data to Armstrong while he guided Eagle onto the lunar surface. Once the engine shut off, Aldrin famously quipped, the Eagle has landed. In reply, CAPCOM Charles Duke in Houston said, roger, you got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot. With those words, the Western world erupted in the ecstasy of accomplishment. Frail mankind had come together, built a craft once reserved for harebrained sci fi writers, flown it off of the surface of the world, landed it on another place, utterly bereft of life and unknown to all humanity. But still, the story was not over. In the following hours, the men prepared themselves and the Eagle's cabin for depressurization. At the start of this prep, Buzz, Aldrin partook of private communion on the moon. He was an elder at a Presbyterian church in Texas. Just before he had radioed Houston and encouraged everyone there and all those watching at home to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours and to give thanks in his or her own way. Eventually, the time came. Helmets wore on, suit systems were operational, and the satisfying hiss of decompression sounded as they took one small step for man and one giant leap for mankind. Those fateful steps were nothing short of transcendent. Before them lay an endless beach of dead gray, pitted with bulbous scars and textured with scree and talus that had not moved nor felt even the slightest breath of wind for thousands upon thousands of years. It was as still as anything could be, and it was quieter than either man knew what to do with. Were it not for their communications with one another in Houston, the sound of their own breathing in that emptiness might have driven them mad. Far away, an umbra of total darkness stood ready to swallow them on the moon's far side. No penumbra waited in between. All the while they basked in the unabated radiation of their own star. Were it not for the millimeters of pressurized fabric around their bodies, they would have exploded and cooked in a hellish mixture of cold and heat. It was into this unworld that Armstrong and Aldrin now walked, and their species watched from the comfort of their distant home. For the next two and a half hours, the astronauts explored. They collected samples from the lunar surface, installed instruments to measure seismic activity, took photographs, enjoyed a phone call with President Richard Nixon, and planted an American flag two inches deep into the regolith. Before reboarding Eagle, Armstrong uncovered a plaque on the module's descent ladder that would be left behind. It displayed Earth's eastern and western hemispheres and read, here men from the planet Earth from first set foot upon the moon. July 1969 AD we came in peace for all mankind. With these tasks done, the men activated Eagle's life support systems. While they disrobed, they tossed much of their moonwalking equipment into the landing hatch to lighten the ascent module. Then they closed the lower hatch, repressurized the cabin, and settled down for sleep before takeoff. Over 21 hours after landing, Eagle's ascent stage ignited and rose victoriously from the surface to rejoin Collins and Columbia in lunar orbit. For nearly a day, Collins had been the loneliest man in the universe. During each of his 11 orbits around the moon, 48 minutes were spent on its dark side, cutting him off entirely from Mission control. Despite his stated feeling of exaltation, in those times of solitude, one imagines he was comforted to watch Eagle drift toward him through the Black Sea. Before long, Eagle docked, Aldrin and Armstrong reboarded Columbia, and their beloved lunar module was jettisoned into orbit, where it possibly remains to this day. The night before their scheduled ocean landing, the Apollo 11 crew made a final television broadcast. Each man expressed his gratitude for what was nearly complete. Collins remarked, all you see is the three of us, but beneath the surface are thousands and thousands of others. And to all of those, I would like to say thank you. Thank you very much. Armstrong ended his thanks by saying, we would like to give a special thanks to all those Americans who built the spacecraft. To those people tonight, we give a special thank you. And to all the other people listening and watching tonight, God bless you. But it was Aldrin's words that perhaps best captured the moment's affection. The Presbyterian ruling elder said, this has been far more than three men on a mission to the moon. More still than the efforts of a government and industry team, more even than the efforts of one nation. We feel that this stands as a symbol of the insatiable curiosity of all mankind to explore the unknown. And thus the broadcast ended. The following day, Columbia blazed through Earth's atmosphere and splashed down safely in the Pacific Ocean, about 13 nautical miles from the USS Hornet, the designated recovery vessel. The three men greeted the rescue team with smiles, entered quarantine for 21 days, and then emerged to cheers from a world that now considered them mythical heroes of the modern age. Apollo 11 had done it. America had done it. We had sent men to walk on the surface of the moon, and even more impressively, we had brought them back again. What's more, much of the mission was filmed and broadcast live to an eager Western world. There were witnesses to this, the greatest and most gilded capstone achievement of Western civilization. But there's a problem. It very well could be that none of this ever happened, or at least not in the way we've been told. Almost before the Apollo 11 crew had landed, naysayers claimed it was all a hoax. As the years wore on after this mission and others, in fact, the sixth and final manned mission to the Moon ended 52 years ago, almost to the day that we sit and record this episode, conspiracy theorists cited numerous reasons to doubt the credibility of NASA's claims and footage. In recent years, these hoax claims have gained fresh traction for one simple We've never gone back. How is it, some ask, that we had the technology to walk on the moon in 1969, but not today? It's a fair question. One would think that even setting aside issues of funding and congressional approval. 56 years of aerospace development would make space travel easier and cheaper. Yet it seems that this isn't the case. So what really happened in that summer of 69? Have we gone to space? Have we gone to the moon? Well, in this episode of Haunted Cosmos, we intend to find out. Ben, have you heard of the Jake Muller Adventures?
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A
Ooh, what's that?
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A Christian audio drama. Zoo, zombies, vampires, global conspiracies and faith at the center. I was up all night on the edge of my seat.
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A
Is it fully immersive sound effects and cast and everything?
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Yes, full cast cinematic sound. It's like you can hear the danger coming.
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A
Ooh, so kind of similar to Hana Cosmos, but no your mom jokes and more drama.
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B
No mom jokes yet. But yeah, tons of drama.
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A
So it's kind of like your mom then?
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Not quite. Check it out@jakemulleradventures.com haunted for 10% off why is it that most soaps and cleaning products ironically don't contain clean ingredients? Indigo Sundries Soap Company is helping families stay clean and healthy by starting with the most important step in cleanliness. Soap. Their cold pressed soap bars, including clay bars and tallow bars are made from all natural ingredients that don't have any harmful chemicals. And they smell Great. Visit indigosundrysoap.com and order today. And hey, subscribe for regular shipments and get 10% off every time. The nighttime is crawling with dangerous creatures. Bigfoot, sleep paralysis demons, the Mothman. Now imagine what would make them even more terrifying. That's right.
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Guns.
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Cryptids with guns. That's where Armored Republic comes in. They equip law abiding citizens to stand against the unthinkable. Even if it's a gun wielding devil worshipping Bigfoot. From combat tested coatings to high performance carriers, every piece of their ballistic armor and tactical gear is built to protect. Visit armoredrepublic.com or text join all caps join to 88027 to get involved in the preparedness effort.
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A
For too long pagans have held claim over the art and design world. It's time we as Christians realize what time it is and fight to take back the good, true and beautiful of God's created order. That's the fight Jenkins is waging at New Dominion Design Company. He arms Christian entrepreneurs, ministries, churches and culture makers with brands forged in timeless iconography, not fleeting trends. Every brand built is made to endure for generations. See what he's built for for others and book your free brand consultation@newdominiondesignco.com mention haunted cosmos. And you'll receive 10% off. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode, the penultimate episode of season six of Haunted Cosmos.
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Good work. Good use of penultimate.
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Thank you. I love the word penultimate.
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Yeah, he does.
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What other words do we really love?
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Asymptotic moon.
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Proliferation. Yeah, I think that's a lot.
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You know what I like? Propagate.
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Yeah, propagate is really good. What a good word. I keep struggling with this word. Which word? Indefatigable.
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Indefatigable.
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I keep saying it. I keep saying it differently, and in a way that's very unfortunate.
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Can I just say thank you for not doing the impression that you've been doing recently on Hante Cosmos episodes. I appreciate you finally listening to me and not doing that anymore.
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Oh, you must mean.
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No, no, no.
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It's not an impression.
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It is an impression.
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It's not an impression. It's a guest appearance that we frequently have. No, from our guy. Cut this section now, everyone's favorite Australian Frenchman, Hugh Jackman.
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Cut to when he's done bread. Cut. Cut to when.
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24601.
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In this episode of Haunted Cosmos, Tone was on point. It was not. In this episode of Haunted Cosmos, we are gonna be giving the final word on this subject. The final word from this point on, whatever we say invalidates any other video opinion about the moon landing and any future video in just whatever information comes out. This is the canon of what happened in the summer of 69 and the subsequent following five more manned missions to the moon back in the summer.
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But before we do that. Before we do that. Okay.
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Yeah.
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Martin's bouncing around.
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Martin, what are you doing? All right.
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I feel like I'm flying to the moon. Okay, before we do that, we have some housekeeping to get through. First of all and foremost of all, if you love this content, then you should check out our Patreon page because we have early access, absolutely ad free access to the main show. We also have a weekly show called the Dusty Tome. And that's a fun show. It's story driven, written by me. We have a good time. And when I say we, I mean me, myself and I. It's so good. And I usually make at least one or two jokes about Martin when I intro the Dusty Tone because he's in the room.
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Also, we do live streams. We do just for patrons. And we. Where you. They log in, they can tap out questions. We answer them in real time. We play darts in the studio. It's such a good time. We told them what touchpad means.
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Yeah, we did Tell our our livestream page.
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The age old mystery. Actually a greater mystery than the moon landing.
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That's true.
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Touchpab. That's true. Speaking of TouchPAB, we are going to be giving one lucky patron, just one that signs up the day this episode drops 24 hours.
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Within 24 hours of the drop the.
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Day this episode drops, we will randomly pick someone who signs up that day for any tier of patron patronage and.
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We'Re giving them the best giveaway we've ever done.
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We are going to be giving away the moon.
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The flippin moon. We are giving away. And what do we mean by moon? The moon, the moon, the celestial body.
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Here's what we mean. You will receive a title deed to the moon, not a part of it. There are websites that claim to be able to sell little parcels of the moon.
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They're just saying stuff.
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It's going to be notarized and it's going to contractually annul any previous land title deeds to the moon. We as the host of Hanukosmos have claimed unilateral authority in the name of the Lord Jesus over the moon. And we are going to be giving it away to a lucky patron. A signed by us notarized title deed to the moon. Cut to us signing this document, please. Now, Evan, catechism question.
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It's probably in the 40s. What is the third commandment?
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Okay, all right. This is not authorized, actually divinely, it's.
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Not authorized by the Lord Jesus Christ, but in a sense he did decree that we would say this.
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You know, let's not get, let's not just cut out any things I said was wrong. But we are gonna be giving away the moon.
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Hey, we are giving. Like that part's real. We're giving away the moon. All of it. You can go to the moon, dark side, light side. And it belongs to you. So any beings that are there are yours and they answer only to you and they must do everything that you say contractually. And it will hold up in court, this document. Congratulations.
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No, that's true. So in this episode we're not going to give you up front here what we think about the conspiracies versus the. The answer yet we will by the end we're going to be planting our flag in the. What's it called?
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The earth, the.
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The moon dust. It's called the, the re.
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The regolith.
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Regolith. We're going to be planting our flag in the regolith of this episode and saying what we think about the. And actually we're in agreement on this, I believe.
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Yeah. I think that we're in. In total agreement. And it's by the end, like, confident. I think even confidence.
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I'm pretty confident.
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Yeah.
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So.
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Which is pretty cool.
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We're going to be going through. We'll talk about the conspiracy, why people believe we didn't. And this episode's going to be a little bit different structure. We won't have a hot clothes that we just go out of and then disappear with the. To the sounds, the dulcet tones of the ninjas or butterflies song that they wrote about us two haunted cos. Bros. Yeah.
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And.
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But we'll actually kind of explain ourselves.
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After that final segment because by the. By the end of the, you know, hot clothes, we will have shown, I think, both sides. And then we'll kind of give our take.
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Yeah, we'll give our take.
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Yeah. Which is fun.
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And because of that, we're gonna make at least some significant portion of our listenership. Viewership mad.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Regardless of what we're saying, people have strong feelings about this. Okay. They have strong feelings about the shape of the earth. Is it a donut? Is it a sphere? Is it inside out? Is it hollow? Yes.
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Yeah.
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Strong opinions. They have strong opinions about, like, do nuclear weapons really exist? Have we been in the space at all? Are satellites real?
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Are birds real? I'm looking at you.
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We're gonna answer all those questions today.
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I'm looking at you, the guy that is my friend that I'm not gonna dox right now, even though he's a public figure on one of the podcasts for New Christian Impress.
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Yes. And his name rhymes with beefin bin. Yeah. But we're not doxing him. Okay. But here in this first segment, let's.
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Talk about the occult.
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We want to talk about the occult.
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Yes.
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Because we got Jack Parsons coming in. It really is the case that a lot of the early rocketry, aeronautical engineering leading up to the industry of space exploration, it has some weird occult connections. I'm not going to say, like everybody was into the occult and it was like the devil himself invented the solid rocket fuel motor or whatever.
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No, I am saying that I'm kidding.
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But there was certainly some strange connections. We talked about Jack Parsons. Do you know who Jack Parsons ritual partner was?
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Yes. L. Ron Hubbard. L. Ron Hubbard, the creator of the Church of Scientology.
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Yeah. Tom Cruise, Z's best friend.
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Also Philip Seymour Hoffman's role in the movie the Master, or it was based on L. Ron Hubbard. One of his best performances, really, in his Corpus.
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I don't know what that movie is at all.
- [33:35]
A
Me neither. But I also know that Joaquin Phoenix is in it. Yeah, and I love Joaquin Phoenix. I love his work on the silver screen. Some of it. I haven't seen hardly any of his movies.
- [33:47]
B
But, yes, we've got Jack Parsons, who is involved in. There are layers that connect. When you start to look into just space at all, you find connections between the occult, the heavens, spirituality, angels, demons, ideas about the nature of being.
- [34:05]
A
Yeah.
- [34:05]
B
And you find all sorts of, like, connections between sci fi and occultic religion. Like L. Ron Hubbard, who's both a science fiction writer and founder of a religion. I'm not endorsing south park, but have you ever heard of the south park episode on Scientology? No. Don't they flash on the screen. This is what Scientologists actually believe. Or is that just the Mormon episode?
- [34:27]
A
The Mormon episode has the song that just keeps saying, dum, dum dum, dum, dum dum dum.
- [34:32]
B
And he said, no one else ever saw them. Dumb.
- [34:35]
A
I don't know if they.
- [34:36]
B
So but the Scientology episode, it explains. If you've never googled it, Google, like, what do Scientologists actually believe? And it will sound like a science fiction thing, because it is a science fiction thing because it was made by sci fi author L. Ron Hubbard. Jack Parsons ritual partner was L. Ron Hubbard. And actually Jack Parsons died in a mysterious lab explosion that is shrouded in mystery. So tell us, Ben. Walk us through a little bit more. Jack Parsons. We talked about him in the cold open. Just tell us a little bit more about him, this occultic connection and what this has to do with space exploration at all.
- [35:14]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think. So. Like, as a summary, broad strokes, Jack Parsons started out with a real interest in sci fi, and the sci fi was the thing that got him interested in space travel. So he would get his funding for rocketry, kind of like under the guise of just aeronautical research. So trying to find fuels that could help in Earth atmosphere rockets perform better. But the whole time, his main goal was to somehow get off of the earth. Like that was his main goal.
- [35:49]
B
To go meet.
- [35:50]
A
To go.
- [35:51]
B
To go meet with.
- [35:53]
A
Oh, the moon child, the beings. I thought you were talking about meat.
- [35:56]
B
Like, no M E E. I mean, you're hungry, you're looking for that. Mike's order.
- [36:01]
A
I've skipped. Dude. Yeah. Jersey Mike's for lunch today.
- [36:05]
B
Mike's prison subs.
- [36:06]
A
It's gonna be so good. Yeah.
- [36:08]
B
Anyway, no, but he wanted to escape. He wanted to escape so that he could get and meet with the entities that were calling to him out in the deep heavens.
- [36:18]
A
But that came later.
- [36:19]
B
Okay.
- [36:20]
A
It was like the sci fi thing.
- [36:21]
B
Gotcha.
- [36:22]
A
Let him correct like. Well, I mean, I don't know, maybe it coincided more than I think now because I wrote this like eight weeks ago, it feels like it's been a while. But the sci fi thing is what led him to the occult thing. The occult thing eventually kind of meshed with the rocketry. The rocketry thing. And he really started to. I mean, the subtext is, the implication is that he started to believe that he should be going. He should be pushing humanity to go off world so that we can ascend to the next plane of existence. And here's the thing, this is what I want people to get under their skin. We shouldn't be surprised at this connection because, I mean, see our published works. Man has been worshiping the celestial realm absolutely. Since he has fallen. Pretty much, yeah. And it's. I believe it's both of our opinion. It's certainly my opinion that man is doing that because there is something to it. Like. Yes, that there is some kind of like fallen powers that can manifest themselves in the celestial world. Whether that's because they're tied to the celestial world or because they just adopt it, that's, you know, another debate. But the fact is, like, it's ubiquitous through history that when we take a great interest in the heavens, kind of demonic occult worship follows. And that should mean that when you have this guy, Jack Parsons, who is obsessed with the occult already, and then he starts to get obsessed with the heavens, those two would naturally coincide, of course. And now his motivation would go from what I think began as like progress, more scientific progress, merged into like a spiritual crusade, a religious crusade to the heavens. Under his impression, for the good of man. We can argue the sincerity of that, whatever. But the point is that's what he was trying to do. And it wasn't just him. There were other people that were working on this with him and they were kind of like hermetically sealed. He would keep his business partnerships a little bit more separated from the occult stuff, but there was nonetheless overlap. He would always be inviting his, his rocketry co workers to his lodge and like all his thelemic stuff. He was big with Aleister Crowley and then of course, L. Ron Hubbard.
- [38:38]
B
Right.
- [38:38]
A
Yeah, he was, he was like practitioner. I think at one point Jack Parsons was basically the equivalent of the high priest fourth dilemma in North America.
- [38:48]
B
And he ended up being fired. Yeah. And removed from his Jobs in the aerospace industry.
- [38:55]
A
Yeah.
- [38:55]
B
Because of his. He was doing his mingling of dark magic.
- [39:01]
A
Yeah.
- [39:01]
B
Which is Crowley. It's like basically Satanism, but it's, you know, do what thou wilt and that is thy law. You know, like as above, so below. Yeah. So it was all of that mixed up. Maybe we'll talk about Enochian magic a little bit more. But he was mingling these things in his scientific experiments, and he would, like, dangerously. There were lab explosions. There were problems that were arising in his professional work, and they literally fired him. Even though he was responsible. I think he was responsible for inventing the first solid cast rocket motor.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah.
- [39:32]
B
And it was like asphalt mixed with some other fuel, and it was like a breakthrough in solid motors. So he was a real engineer. Like, he was actually. He knew his stuff.
- [39:42]
A
No formal education. This was another thing that was interesting that kept popping up. He had no formal education in these matters outside of a couple lectures here and there, which is just not enough to make one a rocket fuel expert. But he was a rocket fuel expert. Like, he had propulsion down to such an intuition that it was almost like talking or like basic arithmetic to us. And he alluded to at times that, like, the knowledge was just given to him, you know, and he also alluded more loosely, but nonetheless alluded to the knowledge being given to him by the beings that were calling him up from the earth.
- [40:22]
B
And you're gonna need this if you're gonna get here.
- [40:24]
A
Yeah. And so I think that the Elon Musk. Yeah, Elon Musk. Dude. Speaking of musk, you should use Indigo Sundry soap to make your musk something desirable to all of mankind.
- [40:39]
B
Make your musk busk successfully on the street, where busking is where you play an instrument. People throw money to you and you'll. Okay. A long walk to a show will pay off. Anyway.
- [40:50]
A
Musk and buskin, instead of mutton busting.
- [40:53]
B
Is Elon Musk a secret occultist?
- [40:56]
A
Probably.
- [40:57]
B
We don't know.
- [40:58]
A
I mean, I feel like. To be clear, I feel like all those. Elon Musk is also a lizard person. Let's be clear. I lost my train. No.
- [41:07]
B
Where we're going. Is that so? All these connections. You have multiple people in the industry. It's again, people can overplay this. They can act like all everybody involved. It was basically like at NASA and in all of the contractors, private contractors, that working in this industry. They started every day like that episode of the X Files where the public school teachers would all get together and they were literal Satanists.
- [41:29]
A
Oh, yeah. And in the classroom. And they'd say.
- [41:31]
B
And they'd be like, okay, which kid are we gonna ritually sacrifice, pray to Satan now? And it was like, what? It's not that. But there were real connections and they were logical within the system of Enochian magic dilemma. Because of the connection between the heavens.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah.
- [41:48]
B
The beings and man.
- [41:49]
A
What? I was also gonna say another interesting tidbit about Parsons. At one point he was on the chopping block in the Thelema church. Okay. Crowley was about to like basically excommunicate him because he was getting too powerful. Interesting. He was getting too powerful in a magic sense. Yeah. But also influential. Interesting. And he was leading people down his own kind of thing. And it was so geared towards this like moon child experimentation, sex magic stuff. Really messed up.
- [42:21]
B
Yeah.
- [42:21]
A
But I thought that was interesting as well.
- [42:23]
B
And we don't really like a lot of this stuff. We often intentionally like, just stay vague on. On exactly how and what Enochian magic, though. This is Crowley.
- [42:33]
A
Yeah.
- [42:33]
B
And explain a little bit about basically what is he trying to do.
- [42:37]
A
Yeah. So Aleister Crowley is using Anakian magic, which was made. Which was formalized by those other two guys whose. Their names escape me right now. But they came before Crowley. And he's using Anakian magic in order to bring about the Aeon of Horus.
- [42:56]
B
Okay.
- [42:57]
A
Which he had a. Like a revelation of Horus when he was visiting. What is that?
- [43:03]
B
Hans feet? Have you seen Horus Ruins Christmas? No. What? I'm Horus, Egyptian God of the sun. You haven't seen this? No. Okay.
- [43:17]
A
It's Lutheran satire. Oh, yes. Because everyone's seen it.
- [43:22]
B
You guys.
- [43:23]
A
Spongebob.
- [43:24]
B
No. You're gonna watch this after Horus Ruins Christmas. It's hilarious.
- [43:27]
A
Jamie, can you pull that up on the big screen?
- [43:29]
B
Jamie, can you pull that up? Anyway, so, okay, so the age of.
- [43:32]
A
He was Aeon close.
- [43:35]
B
He wants.
- [43:36]
A
Dude. Yeah. Well, he wants to bring about the Aeon of Horus, which is a revelation he had from like, from sea. Sea Wasp, which is another Egyptian, like lesser goddess deity. When he and his wife were performing magic rituals in Egypt one time. And I'm sure drugs were involved, but bottom line, he got this whole religion from it. And the religion was kind of founded on the moral code of do what thou wilt, which was an extension of the Hermetic doctrine as above.
- [44:13]
B
So below.
- [44:14]
A
And then it metastasized into this full on religious order that was very, very mystical. And was genuinely convinced that by bringing about the age of Horus on Earth through the use of Enochian magic, which was sex magic. They could ascend to the next plane of human existence and intelligence, which was spiritual and celestial in nature. Gotcha.
- [44:38]
B
Right. Basically evolve past our human forms. It's gnostic elements of the body being. This limiting bad thing. You need a escape. And evolve past. Very anti Christian. We're an embodied religion. Men are embodied souls in our eternal state. Designed state is in glorified embodied souls.
- [44:56]
A
Yeah. And it's super. Like, this is why I keep saying hermetic. It's super hermetic at the core in that it wants the ego, like the individual, spiritually speaking, to be just absorbed into this collective divine.
- [45:12]
B
Yeah.
- [45:12]
A
And that's kind of where it finds its. Its chief end is by becoming more of itself, by. By totally vanishing into the ocean of the divine presence. It's really, it's. It's. Like I said, it's very mystical, very esoteric.
- [45:28]
B
Let me ask you a question. So let's say that you're walking down the street, dark alley, you see a couple of occultists.
- [45:34]
A
Yeah.
- [45:34]
B
What should you do on site?
- [45:38]
A
Physical assault. Physical assault. If I have my arm, I draw.
- [45:44]
B
Ah. All right. And I discharge.
- [45:48]
A
No, no. Okay. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna shoot him in the face multiple times.
- [45:52]
B
No, don't do that.
- [45:52]
A
But here's what I.
- [45:53]
B
Illegal.
- [45:53]
A
But here's what I genuinely do recommend is an unprovoked physical assault.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah. Because you're like, you want to keep them from summoning anything.
- [46:00]
A
Yeah. And that's all satire.
- [46:01]
B
And the thing is all satire. After you have gotten into fisticuffs with occultists. And of course, because of the way that you said fisticuffs and because you.
- [46:12]
A
Like fisticuffs, because you have the strength.
- [46:14]
B
And conviction of a man of God, you've defeated them. You've roundhouse kicked Chuck Norris style. They're all on the ground. After that, you're going to be really tired. You're going to need some Mount Athos perform prime recovery.
- [46:25]
A
That's true.
- [46:25]
B
Because it's full of essential amino acids and other supplements that are designed to help you muscle recovery after strenuous physical activity.
- [46:32]
A
But it's, It's. So you're going to need that after.
- [46:35]
B
Yeah.
- [46:35]
A
But before you physically assault them.
- [46:37]
B
Okay.
- [46:38]
A
Assault and battery. What you're going to need to be strong. And in order to get strong, you're going to need Mount Athos performance protein.
- [46:46]
B
Absolutely.
- [46:46]
A
Now this is made from Goat Way.
- [46:48]
B
Goes without saying.
- [46:49]
A
And that's how you become the goat of weighing in on occultic Practices with your fists.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah. Okay, so that was satire. But really, kids, don't even look into it. Like, I just want to tell you, when it comes to the occult stuff, don't do it. Like, don't start. I want to find out what the rituals were really like. Don't be stupid. Don't just simply do not do that. There are things that we just don't even need to. Here's what you need to know. There were people that are trying to commune with Satan basically, and his minions in order to bring about the next stage in human evolution. And for some weird reason, it's all like mixed up in a bunch of these early rocketry people.
- [47:30]
A
And there's a reason so many of these otherwise very well adjusted, genuinely intelligent people fell into something that we can look at and scoff sometimes and be like, wow, that's so foolish. It's so stupid. There's a reason that so many people fell into it. And it's because the enemy is crafty. He's good at deceiving. He knows what we're drawn to. And so what makes you think that you will be the one, the exception, basically, that you can look into it and be like, investigating it, get really deep and then somehow walk away and not be affected.
- [48:02]
B
Just don't.
- [48:03]
A
Just don't.
- [48:03]
B
Just don't do it now. Yeah, go ahead.
- [48:06]
A
I wanted to say, I don't know, was there anything else you want to say about that in particular?
- [48:09]
B
No, I'm ready to start moving through into the NASA program.
- [48:13]
A
So let's say I have this big meta theory for why. And we can talk more about the space race after this next kind of scripted section. Yeah, but everyone knows about the space race, so I'm not giving anything away. I have this big kind of meta theory in an esoteric sense of why Russia was so beyond or stayed one step ahead of America in the space race. All right, so let's say, granted, granted, everything that we are told in the space race happened actually did happen. All right, Given the spiritual connection to going off world. If we also grant that, I guess, which is an assumption, the reason the Russians were better is because the Russians were more explicit in their accepting of occult practices and dogma because they were Bolshevik Jews that were occultists themselves and Bolshevik communists in America. And so they were like more in tune with these demonic forces, whereas America was already like going down the road of its great apostasy. But it wasn't as far along yet, not very far. And so they weren't as in tune with the rocketry as the Russians were. Because the. The grand masters in the sky, I see, were giving them more direct communication. Because they were more direct communication.
- [49:42]
B
This is the kind of thing that gets letters sent to us.
- [49:46]
A
I'm not saying I believe that. I'm just saying that is a.
- [49:50]
B
Someone out there could say that.
- [49:52]
A
One could say that.
- [49:53]
B
Yeah. I don't believe that is why.
- [49:57]
A
Yeah, me neither.
- [49:58]
B
Necessarily. I do think. I don't actually. They're. You see this with. With the communist world sometimes. Like, they were able to do crazy things at different times, but then the quality of their work ultimately descended into destruction.
- [50:18]
A
Yeah.
- [50:19]
B
Because the principles baked into the foundation were bad. Very bad. So, I mean, we. I've said this. I think I've said this before on Hante Cosmos. Definitely said it on King's hall before. Like, they would. They were really good at spying the KGB and, you know, Soviet Russia, but they would often steal designs for things from America that they were not capable of manufacturing.
- [50:39]
A
Yeah.
- [50:39]
B
Because our manufacturing, we. We were so much better than them.
- [50:42]
A
At that because we had the Protestant workout.
- [50:44]
B
Yeah. But they could, like, crank out volume. They could. Do they have a ton of people basically enslaved to their system. So they. There are certainly. Communism is certainly evil. In fact, it's the great evil that is set against the West.
- [50:57]
A
What's so interesting about Russia, though, or the Soviet Union. What's so interesting to me about the Soviet Union is it started with this stated Marxism, this just brutal, materialistic communism Marxism. But then Lenin comes along. Okay. And the thing what makes Marxist Leninism different from Marxism is the like, esoteric Bolshevism that's attached to it, where it really is this like, occultic religion that they're now attacks attaching to Marxism. And it kind of flew under the radar.
- [51:32]
B
Yeah.
- [51:33]
A
But it was nonetheless at the foundation of the Soviet Union.
- [51:35]
B
Yeah. It's a rival religion. Right.
- [51:38]
A
So Marxism on its own is bad enough. And it is.
- [51:41]
B
But it's making totalizing claims on everything. Creation, nature of being, what a man is, what he. He's for, what the good is. It's making these totalizing claims. It is a religion in many ways. A religion that infiltrated the United states in the 20th century, post World War II, and even through World War II, and led to lots of problems. But this is haunted cosmos. And so.
- [52:05]
A
And you know what else kind of an aside there. You know what else is a religion to some people? Coffee.
- [52:11]
B
Oh, boy.
- [52:12]
A
And it shouldn't be.
- [52:14]
B
All right, where is this going?
- [52:16]
A
I just had my last dram. Some delicious luxe coffee.
- [52:20]
B
Wow.
- [52:20]
A
Go pick up some luxe coffee.
- [52:21]
B
Our guy. Luxe coffee that was unplanned. But I do, I do love Noah and our lux coffee guy. Check it out. So let's talk a little bit more briefly about the. I want to talk about something and then the NASA stuff. And that is the dominion.
- [52:39]
A
Yeah.
- [52:39]
B
Because I am not of the opinion that man's dominion, or let me state it this way, there's kind of two elements. I'm not of the opinion that man's or that the curse, the extent of the curse is limited merely to the terrestrial.
- [52:58]
A
Me neither.
- [52:59]
B
And I am though, I'm interested in the idea that man's dominion is intended to be focused upon Earth.
- [53:08]
A
Yeah.
- [53:09]
B
And so while that it can be in accord with certain space related things because the technology we develop in space, things like starlink right now and low Earth orbits, satellites that are creating networks of Internet connectivity and satellite technology and these things, they can be highly beneficial to man and actually relate to his dominion of the Earth. But I'm not necessarily of the persuasion. I'm not convinced yet. I'll put it this way, that for example, man should be trying to colonize Mars, right?
- [53:39]
A
Yeah.
- [53:40]
B
Well, I don't know that that's what we're for.
- [53:43]
A
It always kind of comes back to like an escapist mentality when you bring up the colonization of other planets. It's. Well, we have to because the Earth is gonna be destroyed by us, you know, in however many years. Yeah, no, I agree with that.
- [53:55]
B
I tend to think that the curse though was actually referring, was in creation itself.
- [54:01]
A
Much more universal.
- [54:02]
B
Yeah. It's not just limited to the. And I know Aquinas had ideas and had thought this through, but also then our ideas about the nature of the physical, of physical reality was also smaller.
- [54:16]
A
Right, Exactly.
- [54:17]
B
Much smaller in that we. I am a geocentrist, I believe the Earth is at the center of the universe. But I just drop that casual.
- [54:25]
A
We're not dullers.
- [54:25]
B
We're not dullers. But I also think that space really is vast and that there really are nebulae and there really are galaxies and it's huge. And it was meant to display the glory of God for the same reason. If you think about it like every year septillions of snowflakes fall on the ground. And if you zoom in on them, they are absolutely magnificent works of art. Every single one of them. And they're all different. Septillions of them fall every year. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of those snowflakes will be observed by no living creature.
- [54:58]
A
Yeah.
- [54:59]
B
Why does God do stuff like that? Just to be like.
- [55:02]
A
Because he likes.
- [55:02]
B
Hey, just so you know, I like this and I'm much bigger than you.
- [55:05]
A
Yeah.
- [55:06]
B
You know, I think space is like this. I think the universe is like this. That kind of gave, you know, gave a little bit away that I don't adhere to a model of physical creation that is like a flat earth or that sort of thing. But so just to clear that up from the cold open, we had that discussion there about the theological development of man's view and the Christian theologians views of the extent of the curse, man's dominion, things like that. That's my two cents.
- [55:31]
A
The reason to bring it up is because some people will take that and I mean, I think they forget that part of man's ability to theorize about the nature of things is limited by what he knows about his ability to go observe it. Or like my ability to know the essence of a star is highly limited because I cannot go into the star, otherwise I would die. At least not yet. Elon, let's get on that star submarines, dude.
- [56:11]
B
Star marines, plasma submarines. That sounded like. I'm talking about a troop of marines.
- [56:15]
A
That operate on stars or that are like the stars of the ship.
- [56:18]
B
They got a crayon in their mouth, they're charging into the star. They're like, let's go or conquer this star. There's oil discovered on Alpha Centaur.
- [56:26]
A
All dead immediately anyway. And so, and so like it make. I could see why, you know, these scholastics would have this idea.
- [56:36]
B
Yeah.
- [56:36]
A
But then again, I'm going to say this. Assuming that the moon landing stuff happened or that, or that space exploration has happened to some degree, then we go into space and you're not immediately vaporized or dead or whatever. And you have to adjust your theology of man's dominion and man's limitation and things like that.
- [57:00]
B
Yeah, the theology didn't adjust. Our understanding of it did. Like the reality didn't change.
- [57:05]
A
That's what you're saying, like our like theology. And I'm saying man's the create man's creation of systematic theology. What we know of God has to adjust to what God says about himself in history and creation. So Aquinas didn't know that we would ever go to outer space. If we have ever gone to outer space. He was very limited in his knowledge. The reason that it's worth bringing up is because I think a lot of people can latch onto those older ideas and say, see, therefore we've Never gone.
- [57:39]
B
Yeah.
- [57:39]
A
But even Aquinas in his writings, he gives room for the opinion. And this is based on a verse in I think Romans 8. It's either Romans.
- [57:49]
B
Yeah, it is in Romans 8.
- [57:50]
A
Yeah, Romans 8, word for creation. Yeah. Where Paul actually greatly expands the boundaries of the curse and he almost explicitly says, but he very much implies that it is all of creation. Creation including the heavenly beings, not just the terrestrial place. And so it was the common view of the reformers that, or at least a lot of the reformers, that the curse was all of creation, including the heavens, not just earth.
- [58:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. So that said, we're going to now start talking a little bit more about the NASA programs. We've in the cold open, we went through the story, this is sort of the mainstream narrative about how this, the NASA missions, the Apollo missions unfolded. This was, you know, there were six manned missions to the moon, allegedly where we put men on the moon. And the last one, like I think we said, in the cold open, it is interesting that it was December 14, 52 years ago, 1970. What would that be? 54? I think it was 1971, but I could be wrong. Anyway, it was like 50 something years ago almost to the day as we record this at least that the last two moon walking astronauts stepped off of the surface of the moon. And we haven't set foot on the moon again since then. There are plans, I think it's by 2029 or something like that, something like that, to have another manned, a seventh manned mission to the moon. But not only has America not returned, nobody has returned a human being to the moon. So we're going to talk a little bit in this next scripted section about a little bit of a wrinkle. We're going to introduce, we're going to introduce some tension, the wrinkles into a narrative. And then after that we'll go through some of the reasons it's hard to do all of them because there are dozens of hours of documentaries and things you'd watch. Hundreds of hours. We'll talk about some of the reasons why people doubt that we've been to the moon.
- [59:48]
A
Yes.
- [59:49]
B
And then we'll move on from there. Not going to get my cards away here, but speaking of cards. Yeah.
- [59:53]
A
It's been 52 years, I think.
- [59:56]
B
52.
- [59:57]
A
52. 52. 52 cards and a deck of cards.
- [60:00]
B
Wow.
- [60:01]
A
Is this narrative a house of cards? I think with that it's time to go into the next story. On July 26, 1971, the Apollo 15 mission launched from Kennedy Space Center, a crew of three men sat with pounding hearts inside the command module Endeavor. David Scott, Al Worden and James Irwin in the Saturn V fuselage. Below them, their lunar module Falcon was stowed away. Much like the triumphant missions before it, Apollo 15 was a total success. Each man performed his role with excellence and tactical. The mission collected some of the most fascinating rock samples of the moon to date. Worden and Irwin, commanders of the Endeavor and Falcon, respectively, executed control of their vessels with precision. It marked the longest stay thus far on the lunar surface, the first use of the famous lunar roving vehicles in the most scientifically technical mission of the Apollo series. On August 7, the endeavour splashed down in the Pacific Ocean with its payload and was safely recovered by the crew of the USS Okinawa. Overall, the mission lasted 12 days, 7 hours, 11 minutes and 53 seconds. After his claim to fame on Apollo 15, Jim Irwin expressed his desire to finally retire from the Air Force and resign from NASA. After all, what more was there for him to do now that he was one of only 12 people to ever walk on the moon? Thus, the flyboy retired as an Air force colonel in 1972 and began a new career, one that hardly anyone who'd known him before could have expected. You see, during his youth and up through his tenure at NASA, Irwin was not a very religious man. It wasn't that he was particularly militant in atheism. He just simply didn't believe in the Christianity that marked much of his country at the time. His marriage showed signs of that transcendent hopelessness. It wasn't terrible, not by any measure, but it also wasn't especially happy for him or his wife. All of this changed, however, when he was in space. There, floating in the vast ocean of God's canvas and studying a world other than his own, Erwin encountered for the first time the magnificence of God's power. The realization of God's majesty and wonder changed him fundamentally over the course of his 36 hour stay on the moon's surface. Reflecting on that time, he said that he felt the power of God as he'd never felt it before. By the time he landed back on Earth, he was a new man with a new heart and a new passion to see the truth of God permeate every nation. His wife followed her husband and taking up the faith once for all delivered. Their marriage improved. They knew real joy and purpose. For the first time around. Erwin decided that no longer an ambassador of peace to the universe at large, he would become an ambassador for the King of Kings in his own homeworld. He thus founded the High Flight foundation, an organization dedicated to proving the words of the Bible and specifically the history of Genesis as true. In particular, Erwin set his sights on finding the lost remains of Noah's Ark in the mountains of Ararat. By 1986, Irwin and his foundation had led six expeditions into Ararat in search of the Ark. They were ultimately unsuccessful, but Irwin's hopes were far from extinguished. Nevertheless, the aging man decided it was time to step back from the tiring work and enjoy the dawn of his golden years in day to day peace. Unfortunately, that retirement lasted only about five years. On August 8th of 1991, 20 years and one day after his return from space, Irwin suffered a severe heart attack after a bike ride. It was the third and worst heart attack he had experienced in his life. The American hero was rushed to the hospital, but it was already too late. James Irwin died that same day and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery. He was the first of the moonwalkers to pass away. But there is one circumstance surrounding Irwin's death that has fueled the moon landing conspiracy for decades. It is a piece of either coincidental or nefarious evidence that cast a shadow of doubt over the entire Apollo narrative. In July of 1981, author Bill Kaysing was featured on the Oprah Winfrey Show. He was given a full interview by the media mogul, the contents of which shook audiences everywhere. Bill outlined to the hostess and the watching world how even before the Apollo 11 mission ever took off from the launch pad, he had known with certainty that nobody was going to the moon. Kaysing had called the hoax before it had even been perpetrated. Or so he claimed. Born in 1922, Bill Kaysing served in the Navy during World War II before starting a promising career at Rocketdyne, a NASA contractor. While at Rocketdyne, Kaysing worked on the Mercury, Gemini, Atlas and Apollo space programs as an engineer. He left before Apollo 11 was announced to the public, but once it was. He described feeling a quiet and calm certainty that, quote, they weren't sending anybody to the moon. This conspiratorial attitude and Kaysing's subsequent explanations for how the hoax was accomplished earned him a wide audience in America during those space crazed years. Thus it was that he got the chance to explain all of his views on the matter to Oprah Winfrey in 1981. One of the people watching that episode from the comfort of her home was Mary Ellen Irwin, the wife of Apollo 15 astronaut Jim Irwin. Surprised at the notoriety Kaysing was receiving, Mary Ellen called her husband in to Listen. Jim obliged and was soon hooked on every word coming out of Kaysing's mouth. Conviction welled up inside him and he knew what he had to do next. A month after that episode aired, Bill Kaysing was walking through his hometown when he received a phone call. The man on the other end of the line claimed to be James Irwin. Bill didn't quite know what to say, so he said nothing. He just waited for Irwin to speak again. And the astronaut did. Shortly thereafter, Irwin confided that he desperately needed to tell Kaysing something important about the Apollo missions. Something extremely sensitive. He expressed fear for his safety should he be discovered speaking to Bill Kaysing. And so he asked Kaysing what he thought they ought to do. The two decided that in three days time, Kaysing should call Irwin back from a secure line to ensure they wouldn't be monitored. Kaysing hung up and sat down on a bench to catch his breath. He was sure that James Irwin, the man converted in space, was was going to be his first Apollo astronaut whistleblower. Unfortunately, that second call never happened. Three days later, on the morning of August 8, 1991, as has been said, James Irwin suffered that fatal heart attack. Kaysing heard about it in the paper the next day after being unable to connect with Irwin. None of it sat right with Kaysing. Sure, Irwin had experienced two previous heart attacks, but both have been minor and long in the past. It all seemed very convenient that right when Erwin was about to tell Kaysing something very important about the Apollo missions, he suddenly died. It only solidified Kaysing's conviction that something nefarious was propping up the moon landing facade. But where did that conviction really begin? At the end of the Second World War, the Allied stage experienced a rift. On the one side stood the Bolshevik communists, on the other the various capitalistic free states. What had been a team only months before turned into the rivalry now remembered as the Cold War. Before the war's end, multiple Allied nations captured different different German POW and weapon research facilities. The most coveted targets for both America and Russia were the German rocket production plants. In 1945, Russia seized several such facilities where the dreaded V2 rockets had been made. This advanced rocket technology merged with the cutting edge nuclear technology that had shown its first demonstrations of power in the Pacific theater during the war's condition.
- [68:46]
B
Conclusion.
- [68:47]
A
The Cold War thus became a race of nuclear armament between the US and the Soviets, reaching its crescendo in the successful development of intercontinental ballistic missiles, or ICBMs. For ICBMs to function, they had to fly into the region of space just beyond Earth's atmosphere. Victory in the Cold War therefore became contingent upon winning the derivative contest between the world powers now known as the Space Race. In October of 1957, the Russians drew the first substantial blood in the battle to tame the heavens with their successful launch and deployment of Sputnik, the first artificial satellite to orbit the Earth. They followed that achievement a month later with Sputnik 2, which upped the ante by carrying a living creature on board, the dog Laika. It mattered little that Laika died during the flight. What mattered was that she hadn't died immediately. Space appeared hospitable enough for life to persist if only the right variables could be controlled. Putting a man in Laika's place now seemed within reach. Almost four months after Sputnik 1, the US finally answered with the launch of the Explorer 1 satellite. Though they had fallen behind, the Americans were confident their mission would carry greater scientific weight. Since Explorer 1 passed out of low Earth orbit and into high Earth orbit, There it encountered and confirmed the existence of what are called Van Allen Belts, two toroidal regions of high level radiation extending thousands of miles above the Earth's equatorial plane. Confirming the Van Allen radiation zones was undoubtedly significant. But the public noticed only how long it had taken the US to match the Soviets and and therefore grew dissatisfied. In 1958, President Dwight D. Eisenhower proposed the formation of NASA to Congress, and the motion passed. NASA was established that July. The space race was now in full swing. But the early episodes set the pattern for the rest of the race. The Soviets were always just a little bit ahead of the Americans. It seemed they possessed a greater understanding of aeronautical engineering and exploration. Or perhaps they simply had better intuition. Whatever the cause, the Russians achieved a series of firsts. The first satellite in space, the first animal in orbit. The first man in space and to orbit the Earth. The first spacewalk, and the first crew of three men to go to space on a joint mission. They accomplished the first simultaneous orbit of two different manned aircraft launched from the same paddle, which then approached within four nautical miles of each other. Once they were in space, they took the first photograph of the far side of the moon and they landed the first spacecraft onto the lunar surface, though of course this was unmanned. All of this built up to a geopolitical position that made the United States deeply uneasy about what other technology the Soviets might possess. Returning to the matter of ICBMs and nuclear capabilities, if Russia could achieve so much so quickly, what might its war machine be capable of next? Thus the conspiracy goes the US had to put a man on the moon first. Doing so was the only way to prove to its own citizens and to the world that America could match or surpass the Soviets in any contest, whether through genuine or perceived accomplishment. The United States could not afford Ford to come second in the race to plant her flag on the lunar surface with the hand of a human being. This geopolitical climate, combined with the technology he helped develop at Rocketdyne, convinced Bill Kaysing that regardless of the pictures or videos NASA showed to the public, there was no way any American had ever set foot on the moon.
- [72:41]
B
Look, it might be real. I'm certainly not an expert astronaut. I don't know what I'm talking about. But when I if I you had a guess. If you showed this to me and said hey.
- [72:52]
A
Today we are observing a wild Bigfoot as he raids the Kings Ridge Elderberry Farm in Indiana. Bigfoot knows that cold and flu season is just around the corner and he must prepare to boost his immune system. The Kings Ridge elderberries are packed with antioxidants and vitamins which will be essential for helping him survive the cold winter. You too can fortify your natural defenses with elderberries by using code haunted for 10% off your first order at tkrfarm.com that's tkrfarm.com @hanukosmos we know that a lot of our listeners are business owners and entrepreneurs that are working to advance Christendom. One of those listeners is Nathan Rose with Rose Solutions. He provides website design, design, maintenance and security. His mission is to promote the business of Christendom by building websites for like minded entrepreneurs. If you or someone you know is looking for help with your website, get a consultation with nathan by visiting cosmoswebsites.com Tell him you're a listener of Hana Cosmos to learn how you could get your first six months of hosting and security for free. How many demons, ghosts or vampires are lurking in your investment portfolio? If you're invested in the S&P 500, it's probably more than you think since it's full of companies that actively oppose your faith. Stonecrop Wealth Advisors is here to help Their faith based portfolios redirect your hard earned dollars away from destructive agendas and into companies making a positive impact on society. Get the demons out of your portfolio and invest in God's kingdom while you grow your wealth. Contact Stonecrop Wealth Advisors today by visiting stone stonecropadvisors.com Haunted Cosmos investment advisory services offered through Stonecrop Wealth Advisors LLC, a registered investment advisor with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission.
- [74:36]
B
Hey, Ben, I just read that our great grandparents probably experimented with butter on their dry skin as a moisturizer. Is that why you look so radiant?
- [74:45]
A
Maybe it's Grandma's butter recipe. Or maybe it's gray toe tallow.
- [74:50]
B
Their tallow products are 100% organic. Organic and naturally contain the good stuff your skin craves. No mystery there.
- [74:57]
A
So say sayonara Sammy to kitchen experiments. And say hello to healthier skin Gray Totalo trusted by skin envied by great grandma's butter recipe.
- [75:10]
B
For more information and to get a sample pack, check out graytoadtalo.com don't forget to use the code COSMOS15. That's all caps COSMOS15 for 15% off your order.
- [75:27]
A
Okay, so yeah, interesting recall into this whole narrative. We'll find out if the facade cracks and falls or if the edifice stands with flying buttresses supporting it on a. So wow. Brian. Yeah. First question.
- [75:43]
B
Okay.
- [75:44]
A
Do you believe that Oprah Winfrey is real?
- [75:47]
B
The obvious first question. And I think it's kind of a toss up, honestly.
- [75:51]
A
Okay.
- [75:51]
B
Because she did have a multi billion dollar media empire. But was she a lizard person? I don't know.
- [75:58]
A
I don't know.
- [75:59]
B
I don't know. Second question. I love how all of this is adjudicated on Oprah. I know. This is how Americans American greatness. This is how we solve things.
- [76:09]
A
That's right. It's like we don't use, like we refuse to use any measurements to measure things. Oh, it's a doggy sized pothole. That whale is the size of a school bus.
- [76:19]
B
The canyon is as deep as two.
- [76:21]
A
And a half school buses. Yeah. Okay. Second question.
- [76:24]
B
Yeah.
- [76:25]
A
Do you buy this whole story from Bill Kaysing about like James Urban was going to call me and tell me some big news?
- [76:32]
B
Let me tell you what I think about this. I am actually offended in a very real way because our guy Irwin. Is it Irwin? Irwin.
- [76:42]
A
Really shows how familiar you are with the material. It's Irwin.
- [76:47]
B
Okay, I'm gonna cut back to my. It's Irwin. I. Look, there's a lot of names in this episode. Okay. No, I'm glad you asked because I'm actually offended by this on a level. Our guy Irwin, what a baller. Chad, first of all, he goes to space, allegedly.
- [77:02]
A
Does he?
- [77:03]
B
And he's like, wow, atheism is dumb. I'm gonna become a Christian based.
- [77:10]
A
Yeah.
- [77:10]
B
Comes back down, he's like, I've kind of done it all. I've been to the moon. Allegedly. He comes Back down. And he's like, I'm starting a Christian organization, and here's our goal. We are gonna find Noah's Ark. And he goes on expeditions. Six expeditions, as many as we allegedly went to the moon with. And he. So this is our guy. Like, I really like this man. I think he is impressive.
- [77:37]
A
His physiognomy checks out. His smile is friendly.
- [77:41]
B
American Christian hero. Okay. And here's my problem with the narrative. This guy who's, like, got a huge vested interest, first of all, in saying that we didn't go to the moon. Cause it's like his whole personality.
- [77:54]
A
Yeah.
- [77:55]
B
It's like him being vindicated on this would be like you being vindicated by commenters on YouTube that you're Hugh Jackman is. Is good and funny, which it's not.
- [78:02]
A
Or that I could do a standing backflip.
- [78:04]
B
But either one of those things that's like his, his. The moon was a hoax. Moon landing was a hoax. Not just, well, maybe the moon is a hoax. And so he go, like, he's got this whole vested interest. The only piece of evidence that we have that the phone call even happened is he said it did.
- [78:19]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's all hearsay.
- [78:20]
B
Family doesn't confirm it. No one confirmed it. He had heart problems in the past. He had two small heart attacks before. This one goes on a bike ride. He dies of a heart attack. Tragic. And then this guy has the audacity to be like, no, no. Erwin would back me up on this.
- [78:34]
A
And I bet. And here's what he. Here's what I bet he was going to say. Yeah.
- [78:38]
B
Like, so whatever you think about the other moon landing stuff we're going to talk about in this episode and other reasons people might doubt. And there are reasons. I don't think this is a good one.
- [78:48]
A
Yeah.
- [78:48]
B
I think it makes a good story, which is why it sticks around. But I just. I'm. I. No, I don't think it fits the evidentiary requirements for us to establish that it happened.
- [78:58]
A
Let me just say something about Bill Kaysing.
- [79:00]
B
Yeah.
- [79:00]
A
All right, hit me. The weird thing about Bill Kaysing is that he didn't have to go so public with all this stuff. He could have just been like, oh, I don't think that that's happening and moving on with my life, whatever. But he became more and more militant about it. I use, like, he was a kind person from what I can tell. But you know what I mean? Like, he was very passionate about getting this through. Here's the thing, though. It says, like, he Worked for Rocketdyne. He worked on Mercury and Gemini and Atlas and Apollo. And, like, do you know what he was doing, though?
- [79:36]
B
He was an English major.
- [79:37]
A
Yeah.
- [79:37]
B
Like, didn't even have an engineering.
- [79:39]
A
He was doing technical report writing. He was. He was an engineer writer. Like. Yeah. All he was doing was taking the information that engineers were giving him about various different things, and he was writing them up in a way that was easily digestible by management.
- [79:56]
B
He had a bachelor's degree in English.
- [79:58]
A
Like, this dude is not. This is like the Bob Lazar thing with, like. I can't remember if this is true. All right, don't eviscerate me in the YouTube comments, but it wasn't Bob Lazar.
- [80:09]
B
Except about Hugh Jackman. Go ahead.
- [80:10]
A
No, no, no. Don't, don't, don't. I will. I will end it. Isn't the whole Bob Lazar thing like that? He admitted that at Area 51, he was a janitor or something like that.
- [80:25]
B
I don't know.
- [80:26]
A
I. I thought that that was the case. Like, he said, like, yeah, I was a custodian. I was a custodial engineer.
- [80:31]
B
Okay. Yeah. He had a bachelor's degree back to the kazing or whatever his name is. He had a bachelor's degree from the University of California or something. He was writing stuff, translating it a little bit so that they. He was like, make words sound good. Engineer. No, Right. Good engineer. Math. Good. Engineer. No. Right. Good. We need. Right good. So that's what he did. And he comes out. He's got the whole thing. You're. You understand engineering because you were an.
- [80:54]
A
Engineer and I did technical writing, and.
- [80:56]
B
You did technical writing of. Hey, we're going to. This is how we should repair this, you know, damage to an A10. Right. That's what you did.
- [81:04]
A
Yeah.
- [81:04]
B
So you kind of understand both sides and then communicate it to somebody, execute it. Blah, blah, blah. I just. You will sense that I'm not a big. I don't trust this guy that much. I kind of think. I think he probably is convinced of what he did. Yeah, I think so.
- [81:20]
A
He's not convinced anymore one way or the other.
- [81:23]
B
Enjoy. He. So, no, either way, we don't have enough evidence from him.
- [81:32]
A
Yeah.
- [81:33]
B
To, like, stake anything on his claims.
- [81:35]
A
Yeah.
- [81:35]
B
Just. It's a very sensational claim.
- [81:37]
A
Right.
- [81:38]
B
And so, of course, it got big attention, the bill casing.
- [81:41]
A
It's. Yeah, it's sensational.
- [81:42]
B
It's like Joe Rogan dramatic.
- [81:44]
A
Yeah. It's very. Like, I called. I called it from before they even left the launch pad. They're not going to the moon. And then they leave the launch pad, and he's like. And he's like, fake.
- [81:56]
B
Fake.
- [81:57]
A
Now, he was the popularizer. He was the. I mean, he went on Oprah, right? Like, he. He kind of led the charge of, this did not happen. This is not real.
- [82:05]
B
But if we're like, he didn't really.
- [82:07]
A
Have that many great arguments as to why. It was just like, doesn't this seem fishy? Isn't the vibe, like, doesn't this not smell very good? It wasn't until this son of a gun, Bart Sibrel, comes along.
- [82:22]
B
Bart Sibrel, who looks like.
- [82:23]
A
And I'm not trying to make fun of. Fun of people's appearance. Okay. But I'm going to.
- [82:28]
B
Okay.
- [82:29]
A
You ever seen Spy Kids? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He looks like a thumb. Thumb? Yeah. From Spy Kids. Evan, you seen Spy Kids? Evan's laughing. I'm making Evan laugh. What are you doing?
- [82:41]
B
I'm pulling out my notes because we're about to talk about all the reasons, and I'm like, I don't have them all memorized.
- [82:46]
A
Okay. So it wasn't until Bart Soborough comes along that we really start to get into the more, like, litigious investigation of why we didn't go to the moon. And do you want to know, like, this is Bart Silberl's number one thing? Yeah, his number one thing.
- [83:00]
B
What is it?
- [83:01]
A
The. The. The shadows.
- [83:03]
B
Yeah, it's the shadows on the moon.
- [83:04]
A
Yeah.
- [83:04]
B
Why don't we list out some of the reasons and maybe not even try to say anything about them, but just no reasons.
- [83:09]
A
The shadow. It's a good reason.
- [83:10]
B
Okay. So the. On the moon landing, you have light coming only from one source, which is the sun.
- [83:16]
A
The sun, obviously, if you believe in that kind of thing, the sun.
- [83:19]
B
Now you have some negligible light coming from the stars, but overwhelmingly, 99.99 out of 1,000 nines. It's the sun. It's the sun. And you've got shadows, then should only be going one direction. This is the way the theory goes, because it's just one light. It's like putting one light in the studio. Right now we have at least three lights in this studio that are contributing to the lighting of this scene.
- [83:41]
A
We have the light from Martin's face.
- [83:43]
B
So there's shadows coming from this light this way. Way. There's shadows coming this way. There's shadows coming this way. And some of the photos evidence light. It seems like shadows are going different directions. They're not all Going one direction. They're going multiple different directions. Which people claim shows that it was shot in a sound stage.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah.
- [84:02]
B
Where there's multiple stages, very large, like bubble kind of sound stage. A lot of money went into it and it, the shadows are going multiple directions because they couldn't light it. You can't replicate the light of the Sun 90 million, 92 million miles away in a studio. Perfectly right. Just it's really impossible without digital alteration. This is before like a lot of digital alteration, things like that. So people say just like the Patterson Gimlin film of Bigfoot, like the costume technology literally didn't exist at that time to do this. That's the claim. People say even if we could today with digital alteration, CGI and stuff, they couldn't do it then.
- [84:41]
A
Yeah.
- [84:41]
B
And so they faked it. And I think it's important to say why do people say they faked it? Yeah, one of the biggest reasons is that, oh shoot, we're behind in the space race.
- [84:51]
A
Yeah.
- [84:52]
B
The space race is a proxy war for ICBMs being able to send nuclear tipped missiles across continents and destroy whole continents. So the American people are panicking and the Soviets might think they have an edge and they could do a preliminary strike and win the Cold War. So this is an issue of national security. It justifies anything like we're saving the American people from death.
- [85:17]
A
Yeah.
- [85:18]
B
So we're going to lie to them and fake this moon landing to tell the Soviets, hey, don't try anything. We can, we can send them in on the moon. Imagine what we can do with weaponry with ICBMs, etc. So people say they faked it. This is the primary driving motive is so the American people wouldn't panic and think that their, you know, government sucked and to send a message to the Soviets. So hence the shadows are wrong.
- [85:44]
A
Yeah, It's a big piece of propaganda. The other thing, the other weird thing too is that I know Bart Sibrel is this way and I'd imagine it's a spectrum among like, you know, those who are really militant in their denial of the moon landings, that it's not that we never went into outer space.
- [86:03]
B
Right.
- [86:04]
A
It's that we never put a man on the moon and no man has ever left low Earth orbit.
- [86:10]
B
Low Earth orbit.
- [86:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. Like so, so they are fine.
- [86:14]
B
They totally like with the idea that we've been in low Earth.
- [86:16]
A
Yeah. Again, there's the spectrum. Like some people are like, no, you can never even leave Earth's atmosphere.
- [86:20]
B
We're talking about the Mainstream.
- [86:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the mainstream thing is like, no, you can go into low Earth orbit, but you can't go into high Earth orbit or anywhere beyond that. There's radiation issues. There's the Van Allen belts. I mentioned them in the. In the previous section. Like the Van Allen radiation would cook you, basically.
- [86:37]
B
Yeah. And toroidal bands of radiation. And so that's another major theory is that we only have a small aluminum skin around the shuttle. The vehicle. Sorry, not around the vehicle that's passed through these Van Allen belts of radiation, which we know exist. They're real. And that this would have killed people or caused such grievous harm to them. And you couldn't possibly put enough lead shielding in this vehicle without it becoming too heavy to physically get out with the rocketry we had. So therefore they couldn't have passed through it, so they faked it. Here's the theory. They did go to low Earth orbit, right. And they made. Using trickery, they made it look like they were filming out the windows and see the Earth in the distance in a way that could only be done if you were halfway to the moon or. Well, on. There are some videos floating around you can see that will show, I think, actually somewhat convincingly, that at least some of the videos were somewhat staged where they actually used. It's difficult unless you understand how cameras work. But the exposure of the human eye is able to. We can look at a scene where there's something in darkness and light. And because we're fearfully and wonderfully made, like God made this amazing thing in the human eye and brain, an optic nerve and interpretation of these signals that you can kind of look at a. Outer window at your house and still be able to see what's inside the room. But a camera has a really hard time doing that. You have to either do hdr, which is like multiple exposures, where you're exposing each scene that's done digitally, or with trickery, where you're exposing for that scene and then the other scene and combining those images digitally, it can be hard. If you've ever done five photography, like indoors, if you take a picture of Ben right now, exposed for Ben's lighting, and there was a window behind him with daylight outside, it would just look like a bright white window.
- [88:34]
A
Yeah.
- [88:35]
B
And so the. The idea is that what they did is that they had these windows in the. The vehicle that were. What was actually in view was just a small or port portal window of Earth. And then they backed up to the other side of the craft and they Took a shot of the wall.
- [88:56]
A
Yeah.
- [88:57]
B
And they exposed for the Earth, the sliver of Earth, the circle of Earth that they could see. And it made it look like the wall is just totally black. And then. And the reason that people say that these videos are faked and actually, I don't know, that maybe some of them were for their own reasons, is because they even, like, you can see them adjusting some kind of.
- [89:20]
A
Yeah, the claim slide in the video. The claim is we have the camera pushed up to the window. It's right next to the window.
- [89:29]
B
Against the window.
- [89:30]
A
There's nothing that can go between.
- [89:32]
B
Yeah.
- [89:32]
A
The glass, the lens and the glass.
- [89:35]
B
The Earth's off in the distance.
- [89:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in those same videos, nothing moves until you see things passing in front of the lens.
- [89:44]
B
In front of the lens.
- [89:45]
A
And so you're like, okay, well, they're not pressed up against the edge of the window. And so, yeah, like, it gives this illusion of there being a ton of empty space and then a really tiny Earth, when in reality, the Earth is taking up the whole window, but they've moved the camera back to make it look like the window is much bigger than it actually is in the frame.
- [90:04]
B
Another big theory. So we've got the light on the moon. We have. Let me dismiss one really quickly that nobody really holds seriously. But when they're on the moon, you can't see any stars in the pictures. Yeah, it's the same exposure issue you can't expose for something literally being lit by under unfiltered sunlight through no atmosphere, and for the stars at the same time. But another one would be that when the landing vehicle landed on Earth during these tests, it made big, massive, obvious craters because it's a big thruster and it's got a lot of, like, fire coming out of it to slow the descent.
- [90:39]
A
For a lot of the tests, the. The lunar module fell into the crater that they made, and it would not have been able to get back off. They were worried about their concern.
- [90:47]
B
But then in the photos, you don't see a big crater under the lander. So people say, aha. This shows that it didn't really land. It was just set there on the soundstage. That's in the one easily dismissible one that people kind of say you maybe have heard is like, there were prop errors where there was, like, a C on a rock. Because it was like, this is rock C for the landscape. Those are actually. You can pretty much find that those are fake. Yeah, those aren't real problems we have. Okay. The Telemetry data was lost. Telemetry is basically the data that shows exactly what the craft did to influence its trajectory and path. So, like, the movement of everything, the thruster, every part of the vehicle is tracked.
- [91:31]
A
Yeah.
- [91:31]
B
And with telemetry, ground control, that's why they call it ground control, could control the vehicle.
- [91:38]
A
Right.
- [91:39]
B
Unless something went wrong, like, or it's behind the dark side of the moon or something goes wrong. Or they can manually take over as the astronauts did on the first Apollo.
- [91:49]
A
Moon landing mission and in the movie Apollo 13.
- [91:51]
B
And they have to, like, fly by instead of telemetry and the computers and all the people. So this is true. The telemetry data from the moon mission is gone. Yeah, it doesn't. And you. And people go, that's crazy.
- [92:04]
A
Yeah, it does not exist.
- [92:05]
B
The greatest achievement in human engineering ever. And we were like, well, we're going to reuse the tapes.
- [92:12]
A
And these are all of the moon missions.
- [92:14]
B
It's just gone.
- [92:15]
A
Like, it wasn't just lost on Apollo 11.
- [92:17]
B
So you couldn't recreate.
- [92:18]
A
Yeah.
- [92:19]
B
So that's another one. Another one would be that we don't have. They'll say, we don't have the technology today because we lost it. Like, we did all this stuff, and then we just. We didn't preserve everything we need right. From that massive engineering, very complex engineering process. We just don't have it anymore.
- [92:36]
A
Yeah. Like, the reports were. Were gone. There was a purge, there was a cleanup. There was no funding. There was no reason to keep them. So they just dumped everything. And now it's like, oh, shoot, we actually don't know how to do this anymore.
- [92:46]
B
Oh, the American flag.
- [92:48]
A
The American flag. Well, some of these. The next scripted section will also talk about.
- [92:52]
B
Yeah, that's fine. So I think we can double dip.
- [92:55]
A
Double dip. The big thing, though, is like, okay, keep these big ones in mind. The shadows on the lunar surface, that's a really big one. If, if, if anyone could prove that the shadows can do that on. In that setting, then that's a big point in favor of going to the moon. The Van Allen belt radiation. If you can prove that going through the Van Allen belts multiple times would actually have no immediate detrimental effects on the human body, then that's a big point in favor of going to the moon. And here's the thing. At least with the Van Allen belt thing, you can prove that.
- [93:31]
B
Are we debunking right now?
- [93:32]
A
Well, I'm just saying.
- [93:33]
B
You're saying that.
- [93:34]
A
You're saying you can do away with some of these Fairly quickly, Bart. Sibirol gives a ton of weight to the Van Allen thing. But if you look into it, like, it really isn't that big of a deal. You can. Like, there are areas around the Earth where the radiation is less than in other areas. And so if you go through those areas and you spend a couple hours, I think, total round trip, like, it doesn't. It's not good for you. It's not good for you, but it doesn't make you immediately start throwing up and it doesn't immediately give you cancer and all this stuff. Like, it is exposure to radiation. Obviously, that's not good. But it doesn't have this immediate profound negative effect on the human body that would cause one to, like. It would immediately lessen one's life by decades or something like that.
- [94:24]
B
Cause five different types of cancer.
- [94:26]
A
Yeah, it just wouldn't do that.
- [94:28]
B
So.
- [94:29]
A
Right. It's not great. But the argument from NASA is the cost is worth it to have the risk to achieve this great thing.
- [94:38]
B
And then they. They claim. And we'll. We'll get. We'll go back through these after the next one and we'll talk about each of these and explain why they. Why they. What we think about them, whether they stand up or not, whether they're good objections or whether we think we landed on the moon. I mean, there are some other ones that people will say that Stanley Kubrick, yeah. Like, directed the footage that he used 2001 A Space Odyssey techniques.
- [95:03]
A
And he, like, confessed to it in the Shining because of the pattern on the carpet like that. A lot of. It's a fun story, but there's a guy on.
- [95:11]
B
I think it's Cibro, who. He says that his dad worked security at a secret base. Oh, yeah, we're not a secret base, but a base where they had, like, a big bubble kind of enclosure. And it had been this huge engineering project where they built this, like, massive concrete foundation. They built this big bubble kind of stadium style. And that he was the secure. His dad allegedly was the security officer who had to check anybody going in and out of this bubble that they were on a list. And he says it included, like, 16 people. One of them was the president. The president did come one day, and then after this thing, they took it all down, and it's like nothing was there. So they will say that. This guy actually says, like, my dad on his deathbed told me this. He waited until he died to release it. The son actually said, don't release this evidence until after I'm dead. And so the guy. I think it's Cibril, who released it once, he died of cancer or something because he had had men in black show up and say, if you talk about this, we'll kill you. You'll kidnap your family or something. And so he claimed that what that was is the sound stage, the film stage, where they did film some things. I don't want to. I'm trying to avoid, like, getting into it.
- [96:31]
A
Yeah.
- [96:31]
B
We don't want you to understand all of it.
- [96:33]
A
One of the other things. One of the. And I think. I think this is a difficulty for moon landing affirmers. Okay. Is the pictures on the moon, and I don't know, you know more about cameras, and everyone else in this room knows more about cameras than I do, so maybe y' all can answer this really quick. But the pictures on the moon may show the lunar module, and it's the dark side of the lunar module. Right. So the sun is hitting the other side, but in the shadow of the lunar module, you can see either Neil Armstrong or Buzz Aldrin or some other astronaut. Now, to me, that's difficult because there's no albedo on the moon. So there's like.
- [97:20]
B
Explain what that is.
- [97:20]
A
Okay, so albedo is the. Is basically the gradient between light and darkness. Okay. It's the penumbra. Yeah. So you can be. Right now, I'm very well lit. Evan over there is not very well lit. You can't see. But he's partially lit. But he's partially lit because the light is reflecting off of atmospheric particles, dust particles, air particles, and things like that. And some of that light is getting back to me. So even though Evan is not directly, directly in light, I can still see him, actually, without that much difficulty. Martin is the same right now, though, of course, you also can't see him. The Moon doesn't have that because it has no atmosphere. So there's nothing. Like, if there is something blocking the sunlight, anything behind it is in total blackness.
- [98:00]
B
Yeah, that's the idea.
- [98:00]
A
That's the idea. That's why it's the dark side of the moon. You can't see anything on the dark side of the moon. And so it does puzzle me that in these pictures, even though it's in shaded sections, you can still see what's in the shaded section. Can you just increase the exposure a ton, like. Or something like that?
- [98:21]
B
I don't know. And we'll talk about that, like, kind of weighing that. That's another really good one. People bring that up quite a bit. It's a major component of objections.
- [98:29]
A
Yeah.
- [98:30]
B
And the idea that it was faked. Another one is it relates to the telecommunications. So we have live and how it was presented to the Americans populace. We have live calls happening between the astronauts and even the President of the United States at different points. This is all theater, obviously, it's national theater. We're trying to say something to the Soviets and the American populace.
- [98:53]
A
Propaganda.
- [98:54]
B
And there's this. They're actually having a conversation and people say well like my cell phone doesn't work a bunch of the time when I'm walking around the town, like I can be driving and lose a call. And you're telling me that we had a phone call in 1969 with people hundreds of thousands of miles away from Earth, from the moon. You're. Because of the bones, because of the.
- [99:17]
A
But you can tell by the bones.
- [99:18]
B
You're telling me that because of the.
- [99:19]
A
Bones you can tell by the. If you look at this bone, you see this bone.
- [99:22]
B
So people go, that's a big objection people raise. And again we can weigh that and talk about it in a minute. And then the way that it was presented, the public, this is another objection is that the media was allowed to cover all this. Obvious. It's one of the most viewed events in human history. But they were spoon fed.
- [99:40]
A
Yeah.
- [99:41]
B
Just very, very limited data. And even their filming, they were allowed to film a projector screen of the video with their cameras rather than getting a direct feed. And the idea is. Or the objection is they did that because if you look at the footage from the news coverage of those, of those different stories, it's like it was filmed on a potato.
- [100:05]
A
Right.
- [100:05]
B
It's terrible because. And the thing was. Well, if there's any mistakes in the video that someone might notice, it will be so difficult to detect.
- [100:14]
A
Yeah. You can chalk it up to the.
- [100:15]
B
Because we've basically turned it into like a 180p.
- [100:18]
A
So the only thing that got the direct feed was NASA. They had total control over the direct feed. Here's another thing about NASA. Since it's a public, it's a government thing, since it's a public thing, they are obligated to release all of their findings, media, pictures, whatever, within. Within like what, 48 hours? Well there, six hours, something like that.
- [100:43]
B
They, they, there are disclosure laws and then there's also the freedom of information.
- [100:48]
A
Yeah, yeah, so, but they have the disclosure law. But you're still saying this is where we get into conspiracy all the time. You're still trusting that entity to do what it's supposed to do.
- [101:02]
B
They're the gatekeeper.
- [101:03]
A
Why can you do that?
- [101:04]
B
We've given you everything.
- [101:06]
A
Has our country maximized and enabled public trust?
- [101:12]
B
No.
- [101:14]
A
So that's something worth considering.
- [101:16]
B
People go, okay, make sure we're not missing any major in people. I know there are a bunch of them like people could bring up.
- [101:23]
A
Yeah.
- [101:23]
B
There's tons other big objections.
- [101:26]
A
That same video. Brian and I both watched a video that seemed to make it very clear to us that at least some of the videos were being somehow falsified. Whether they were filming closer to the earth than they really were or it was all made up, you know, on a set or whatever.
- [101:41]
B
Yeah, there were.
- [101:42]
A
And you talked about with the window.
- [101:43]
B
With the window we can.
- [101:44]
A
But even in that same video, it seemed like an odd recording of a third party who was on the call between the astronauts and Houston that was feeding the astronauts lines.
- [102:01]
B
Yeah.
- [102:02]
A
And it was genuinely like really weird.
- [102:04]
B
Yeah. There are suspicious things like that where you can, can watch and, and what is the. Isn't it. What's the name of the documentary? Civil did. It's like I can look at that. Something strange happened on the way or something like that. Yeah, I'm. It's. It's something along those lines. If you want like all the detail, look at the films, that kind of thing. Literally just go watch it. I think it's like an hour documentary that he made. You can watch it. He has a. He has a website where he has like interview with the guy that said, hey, my dad, this is a. A post. It's a. After my deathbed confession, my dad told me this and I preserved it. And so here you go, here's the story. You can go look into all of that. And absolutely. Another one would be that the film just looks really fake. When they're in this gravity environment, this like lower gravity environment, the astronauts and people will say like, look how silly it is. Yeah, they just sped up normal footage. Or they did, they had rigs, they did different things. But look how it's obviously fake.
- [103:00]
A
Yeah.
- [103:00]
B
They'll say that the footprints couldn't have been there.
- [103:03]
A
No moisture in the regolith.
- [103:04]
B
Yeah. They'll say the flag was waving it. How does it wave? There's no atmosphere, no wind. The flames weren't visible. In various footage, people will. That's an object. A lot of these are very minor and actually kind of easily dismissed. But I'm trying to get them all out there because.
- [103:21]
A
Because here's the thing. In any like investigation you can have a lot of Apparent discrepancies that are easily dismissed. But when you stack up a ton of discrepancies, even if they can be explained, when all of those easily explainable discrepancies apply to one thing, it inherently reduces the ability of any human being to have confidence in that narrative.
- [103:48]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [103:49]
A
So as many holes as can be poked must be poked, and I think rightfully so, so that you can get to the bottom of whether or not this thing actually happened.
- [103:57]
B
I want to try something, by the.
- [103:58]
A
Way, just while you do that.
- [103:59]
B
Yeah.
- [104:00]
A
The Bart Siberal documentaries are A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon and then Astronauts Gone Wild.
- [104:05]
B
Okay.
- [104:06]
A
Both of those, as far as I know, available on YouTube.
- [104:08]
B
They also say the astronauts didn't give any, like, interviews. There was like, the one official one and they literally don't talk about it. They look really. There are people who would analyze, like, how they looking. They look like disappointed people wonder why they were quarantined.
- [104:23]
A
And it was like 21 days.
- [104:24]
B
21 days.
- [104:24]
A
Why are you quarantined? That was the most sterile environment you could possibly be in. Why do you then. Yeah. What's quarantined when you come back?
- [104:30]
B
We don't know. I want to ask. I'm just opening grok here. I'm going to ask it. What percentage of Americans doubt that we landed on the moon?
- [104:37]
A
Okay, I will sing a song.
- [104:40]
B
Hey, Grok. What percentage of Americans, roughly speaking, either don't believe we landed on the moon or doubt that we landed on the moon? Roughly 6% of Americans outright believe the moon landings were faked, while another 10 to 15% expressed some doubt or uncertainty about them. That's based on recent surveys, like a 2022. Okay.
- [104:58]
A
So up to a fifth, we're looking at 20.
- [105:01]
B
A little bit over 20. Even at the outward. Either Grok is still. Grock's still talking to me. I don't use grok voice stuff. So there you go. That was an experiment that could. We could have had to cut that out. I don't know if that's exactly right, but I think I've seen studies like this or surveys, and I think a lot of people doubt this.
- [105:20]
A
Yeah.
- [105:21]
B
Oh, yeah. It's going like. Think of what happened. I'm not going to say the word, but what happened in 2020 and then onward. And I'm not saying it because by the way, we put out a video that just as a one part on weeks.
- [105:33]
A
Yeah.
- [105:33]
B
That video maybe mute. Maybe like make that not show up in the video. What I just said. Leaks from laboratories.
- [105:40]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [105:42]
B
And all of a sudden, overnight, our audience on YouTube, like, halved. We. We were getting half as many views on videos. Like, we finally took that episode off of you. It's still on podcast, but we took it off of this platform.
- [105:54]
A
But our viewership's still been.
- [105:55]
B
It's. It's never recovered.
- [105:56]
A
Yeah.
- [105:57]
B
So people, because of all of that, we. Because of, like you said, what we. Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination. All these things. We're like. They lie to us about all the time.
- [106:08]
A
Everything about everything.
- [106:11]
B
You know, it's like there's an a priori reasonableness even saying that they probably lied to us about this, too. I get that.
- [106:20]
A
Like, who are the big name presidents with the Apollo missions and moon landings? Okay. Jfk, he called for, you know, let's send a man to the moon and.
- [106:27]
B
We will do the other thing.
- [106:29]
A
Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
- [106:32]
B
I like that he said, in this decade.
- [106:34]
A
Yeah. Actually, like, JFK had some banger quotes, but then he was assassinated and we were lied about it. Oh, and we're still lied about it. Who's the other guy? Nixon. Nixon. Watergate. Big, big, big, big, big lies around Watergate.
- [106:49]
B
First of all, Nixon. Our guy.
- [106:50]
A
Nixon's our guy. Dude. Nixon is a. He's one of the best presidents we've ever had.
- [106:54]
B
Nixon wouldn't do this to us. No, I. I'm not even kidding. I love Nixon.
- [106:57]
A
No, me too, dude.
- [106:58]
B
Nixon was our.
- [106:59]
A
Nixon was one of my favorite presidents. Yeah. So Watergate, tons of lies around that, too. So even, like, sandwiched between this, you know, moonlight, this great triumph of the west, you know, there's these two massive conspiratorial events that have proven to be conspiracies and remain uncertain, in addition to a billion others. Yeah. In addition to smaller. And so now you're like, oh, but this thing. But this one was real.
- [107:21]
B
So people that don't. That are either skeptical or don't believe, like, they have good reason.
- [107:25]
A
Yeah.
- [107:26]
B
To be skeptical or not believe, I think.
- [107:29]
A
With that said, let's go into this final scripted section. But we're going to follow it up. This is not a hot close.
- [107:34]
B
We're going to follow it up with.
- [107:35]
A
More commentary where we show you what we believe, and our answer is definitive.
- [107:41]
B
Yeah. It's binding on all people and consciousness everywhere. Okay, that's not true. That's not true.
- [107:57]
A
Sometime around 2008, I remember sitting on the couch in my living room in Dakula, Georgia, lazily watching a rerun of the hit Discovery Channel show Mythbusters I suppose it had been a normal day. I don't really remember. It was late August, so if I remember right, school would have have just started back up for me. Anyway, the reason I was sitting there was twofold. One it was my post school evening routine at the time. 2 Though reruns were playing at the start of the night. A brand new episode of mythbusters, my favorite show in those days, was due to drop within the next hour. It was already after dinner. I had showered without Indigo Sundry soap products and was ready to wind down for the evening. I went into the kitchen and pulled a cosmic brownie from the pantry as one does. I poured myself a tall cold glass of milk as well. 2%. I put the brownie on a paper towel and made my way back to the brown leather couch. And there I sat, placed the brownie on the ottoman and pulled it close to me, set the milk on the side table beside a small desk lamp and it was time. There was a lot of buzz for this new episode. You see, the mythbusters crew was going to test and try to bust some of the most popular myths surrounding the Apollo moon landings. I, like every boy at some point in his life, was obsessed with stellar travel. I wanted to grow up and become an engineer and who knows, maybe go to space myself. I needed the mythbusters to come through on this one and prove that my boyhood dreams could someday be something more than that. I needed them to prove that we really had gone through to the moon. The intro credits rolled and the main hosts, Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman, wasted no time getting down to business. With help from engineers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight center, they laid out the list of myths they would be putting to the test. First up was the claim made by hoaxers that the American flag looked like it was waving in the footage. Of course, in the vacuum of space, there would be no wind to push the flag hither in yon. To test this, Adam and Jamie rigged up a nearly exact replica of the flag and pole used by the Apollo 11 astronauts. This pole was special because it not only had a vertical shaft, but a perpendicular arm parallel to the ground as well that stuck out of the top. The flag slid onto this horizontal arm via a loop of fabric so that it wouldn't hang limp. Once the flag was made, NASA scientists helped the team construct a sandbox of sediment similar in density and depth to what the astronauts experienced on the moon. All of this was built inside a massive vacuum chamber that could mimic the lunar atmosphere. When the air was evacuated and the men reenacted the planting of the flag by Apollo 11, Adam and Jamie and I, the viewer, were relieved to see that it behaved almost exactly like the popular videos of the Apollo mission. The first myth was successfully busted. Next up, the team tackled the critique that no stars could be seen in the pictures from the Apollo missions. This was a much simpler claim to debunk. They set up bright lights over the model lunar surface they'd already used and then positioned smaller lights much further away. They took photos at different angles with older cameras that had settings similar to the ones the astronauts used on Apollo 11. And the results showed showed that the bright lights near the surface overwhelmed the smaller, dimmer lights further away. Thus, the claim that the lack of stars cast doubt on the whole operation was swept off the floor. Third, a complaint had arisen from Bill Kaysing and others like him who claimed that since the lunar surface was essentially a vacuum, there would be no moisture in the lunar regolith. Because of this dryness, boot prints would be encouraged, incredibly unlikely to form. So when Apollo footage and photos clearly showed defined boot prints from the astronauts, the conspiracist cried foul. Using the same model surface in that same vacuum chamber as before, the mythbusters proved that boot prints are far from difficult to make in a vacuum setting. With dust of similar properties to the Moon's own dirt. They were 3 for 3, but still not done. No show addressing the moon landing naysayers could be complete without tackling the issue of the shadow angles in the pictures. Coincidentally, this is also the most difficult thing to replicate on Earth. After all, the Moon and the sun are a unique pair of interacting bodies. Still, the idea of using Earth as a stand in to replicate those odd angles makes a basic amount of sense. It's surprising therefore, that they didn't do this. Instead, they set up a miniature model of the lunar terrain with a small lunar module built to scale. Then they positioned a high powered light at the properly scaled distance from the set, cut off all the other lights, and adjusted the terrain and camera angles until they were able to replicate some of the non parallel or seemingly non parallel shadow angles that had troubled the hoaxers. I remember thinking it was the weakest case they'd made, but they nonetheless considered the question answered. The episode is remembered for being incredibly convincing to many who had previously questioned the moon landings. Some former deniers even recanted and admitted that they'd been wrong the whole time. Others dug in their heels and claimed it was more government Propaganda. After all, how could the mythbusters get away with proving the moon landing's fraudulence when NASA itself was helping them with the experiments? The conflict of interest is real, and it was never addressed by the showrunners. But there was one other thing they did, one final test that makes the question of the moon landings far from simple. You see, Apollo's 11, 14, and 15 missions left behind very important artifacts on the lunar surface. Metallic and reflective prisms. What's more, NASA had documented the exact coordinates of these prisms and would often shine high powered lasers at them to record data on how long it took the light to reflect back under different atmospheric conditions. The mythbusters team decided to give this an independent test. They called in a favor with the Apache Point Observatory in New Mexico and received approval for the staff of astronomers there to fire laser pulses at the three lunar coordinates corresponding to the prisms there recorded on Discovery Channel for all to see. Telemetry confirmed that the lasers did, in fact, return from those exact points. So what gives? Was it fabricated? Are there three naturally reflective points on the lunar surface that NASA has just happened to find? Or did mankind really go all the way up there? There and plant metal cubes on pedestals as a testament, a witness to the greatest technological and exploratory achievement in human history, One that still has yet to be repeated over 50 years later? Well, we'll let you be the judge. Or will we?
- [115:04]
B
Okay. And so, like we said at the beginning, we're going to do a couple things right now. Number one, we're going to definitively answer the question once and for all, leaving no room for anybody ever to doubt our conclusions in the future, in the present, or any other dimension. You are now contractually obligated, after we give our declaration, to agree with us on this subject or you actually. I don't know, consequences might happen. And here it is. We went to the moon in 1969. Not 1978, but a year later, sooner. Thank you. We went to the Moon. And if you don't believe it, it's an assault on American greatness. You are assaulting the pinnacle of the achievements of the Christian west and our ability to do things that seem almost superfluously ridiculous to do. What do you get by going to the Moon?
- [116:03]
A
You go to the moon.
- [116:04]
B
You go to the Moon.
- [116:05]
A
Hesiod, Homer, Odysseus, Achilles, Aeneas, Virgil, Caesar, Octavian. Who else? Augustine, Constantine, Ambrose. Who else?
- [116:19]
B
Alfred, Beowulf.
- [116:21]
A
Beowulf, Louis, Tolkien, Nicolas Cage. All of it, all of them were.
- [116:29]
B
Building up to one moment in human.
- [116:32]
A
History when Neil Armstrong stepped off of that lunar module and said, this is one small step for man, but it is one giant leap for mankind. The west went to the moon. The west will go to the moon again. The west will rise again.
- [116:48]
B
That's right.
- [116:48]
A
And if you don't believe it, I'm done with you.
- [116:53]
B
American greatness. Okay, American greatness. Let's. Some of you are mad at us right now for thinking that you're like, you were the chosen ones. Haunted. Cosmos was supposed to agree.
- [117:06]
A
Hey, for real, if you don't believe we went to the moon, like, it's fine. You are, you are wrong. And I do take it personally. Offensive.
- [117:13]
B
But I do understand.
- [117:14]
A
It's all good.
- [117:15]
B
No, you're like normies. No, here was the, Here was the path for me.
- [117:18]
A
So that's the end of the episode.
- [117:19]
B
No, here's the path. I obviously, everyone pretty much believed we went to the moon. Grew up, my Dad's in the ICBM industry, even for 40 years. Pretty high level involvement actually in the ICBM industry. So it's just like, yeah, I went to the moon, space is real, satellites are real, all this stuff. And then got involved, heard about all the conspiracy theories, and I was like, I don't think so. Those are dumb. Then over the years, especially as things develop with learning how much they'd lied to us about, I was like, I don't know.
- [117:49]
A
Yeah.
- [117:50]
B
So then I started looking into it, even, especially for this episode, and I was like, pretty convinced by several of the things that there was fakery going on. And then, and then I thought, well, I guess we didn't go to the moon. Then I went deeper and I looked into all of my objections that I'd built up. And then I believed. I came to believe, no, we did go to the moon. Now, asterisk. I do think that there are things that are legitimately faked and that were legitimately faked. I can't prove every single one of them. And I believe that some of that has to do with the, the whole communism.
- [118:27]
A
Yeah, the geopolitical climate, geopolitical environment demanded a level of propaganda that I do not think we, we would have been able to achieve without faking some of the videos.
- [118:36]
B
Because it was propaganda.
- [118:37]
A
Exactly.
- [118:38]
B
Propaganda doesn't have to be fake. It can be built upon a whole lot of real things. But then it involves an attendant force of.
- [118:46]
A
It's so critical to remember that exaggeration in that whole moon landing thing and the whole space race. You had to have the pantomime that told the world you were stronger than you actually were. It was a cold war. And one of the principles of war is that when you were weak, you would seem very strong. I do believe that we went. Like, my path was the exact same. I genuinely believe that we went to the moon. The nail in the coffin for me was rewatching Apollo 13 and realizing this is true. Realizing I came into work the next day, I said, if that is not how it happened, I am. I'm done living.
- [119:21]
B
And at this point, I did not believe we went to the moon. And I was like, ben, you cannot stake your whole reason on the movie Apollo 13.
- [119:29]
A
Everyone knows this about me. If the vibe is good.
- [119:36]
B
Okay. But then we did. We. We talked a lot. Ben and I, like, kicked back and forth different objections. Yeah, very. No, I do think we went.
- [119:42]
A
Very much convinced that we. That we went to the moon, that James Irwin went to the moon, that he was not going to confess to not going to the moon. I think he was probably going to tell Bill Kaysing to repent and believe. Which is.
- [119:52]
B
Or the phone call. He would have.
- [119:53]
A
He would have been so real for that. Or it was. None of it ever happened.
- [119:57]
B
He was going to tell him, I found Noah's Ark.
- [119:59]
A
Can you imagine?
- [120:00]
B
And the men in black stopped me, the lizard people.
- [120:03]
A
And the ark told me there was a message in the ark that said, you did go to the moon.
- [120:09]
B
Let's talk about some of the biggest reasons why one of them would be the biggest physical evidence today. There are layers of it some people can still dismiss. Like, we have done very detailed imaging of the moon since then with close orbit sort of visits. And. And you can see the rover tracks. You can see the landing sites. You can't see. We don't have good enough resolution from Earth with a telescope to see these things from Earth. It's almost physically impossible, actually, with our current telescopic understanding of how telescopic imagery works.
- [120:41]
A
Yeah.
- [120:41]
B
Like telescope make a big one.
- [120:43]
A
Yeah. Magnets.
- [120:44]
B
Magnets. You could dismiss that and say it's cgi. We can fake that easily. Now, I happen to believe it's real, but let's say you don't believe that the photo reflectors that we. That the hot. The not hot clothes. It was hot, but it wasn't a clothes.
- [120:58]
A
It was a lukewarm clothes. Yeah, that's what's. That's one of the things that did it for me. Yeah. So, like, first of all, I had forgotten just how many of the objections the mythbusters did cover yeah. And how. How compelling? Like, yes, they worked with NASA scientists. Okay. I get the conflict of interest. There's. But at the same time, like, they did what they did.
- [121:21]
B
Yeah.
- [121:21]
A
You know, and it is. It would be very difficult to falsify all those things for everyone to see. And everyone always says too, like, never mind. That's not going to really be relevant. That would actually be a point in the opposite's favor. So I'm not gonna say that the.
- [121:37]
B
Photo reflectors, though, just to be biased. You can shine a laser like you could with existing technology that's available over the counter or you know, that you could assemble. You could do this experiment.
- [121:47]
A
Yeah.
- [121:48]
B
And show that there are retro reflectors on the moon that are man made.
- [121:52]
A
And that's huge.
- [121:53]
B
That's. That's. That's giant. That's almost as big.
- [121:55]
A
As big as your mom.
- [121:56]
B
Yeah. I mean, first one in this episode.
- [121:58]
A
And you want to think that the moon is big, you got another thing coming.
- [122:03]
B
Now, I don't believe that the moon causes the tides. I think we know it does.
- [122:07]
A
Brian's mom.
- [122:08]
B
Okay. But anyway, the retro reflectors are a big one. Not going to beat it to death. Let's talk about some of the objections. Some of the. The. More like the ones you hear a lot.
- [122:16]
A
If I, If I can talk about the shadows for a second.
- [122:20]
B
Yeah, let's.
- [122:20]
A
Let's discuss the shadows because again, that's the Bart Sibol says like that it's.
- [122:24]
B
A nail on the coffin.
- [122:25]
A
The moon landing denial stands or falls on the shadows.
- [122:27]
B
And you find this over and over that people overstate things like that in their conclusions about this. Like it's one and done. If the shadows aren't the same angle, it's physically in impossible. If this is exposed and this is exposed.
- [122:37]
A
Here's the thing.
- [122:38]
B
Yeah.
- [122:38]
A
Walk us through it now in the not hot clothes. Yeah. The Mythbusters did this. They did a miniature.
- [122:45]
B
Yeah.
- [122:46]
A
Okay. I've thought more about it. Here's why they did a miniature. Because the Earth's atmosphere doesn't properly conduce itself to recreating the environment on the moon, where there's one major light source, one receptor of that light source, and nothing in between that would refract the light and cause it to be a problem. In analyzing the direction of the stars, the Earth does have something in between the atmosphere. And you can see this all the time if you have multiple light sources, which the atmosphere effectively causes there to be multiple light sources because of things like clouds, for example, more densely packed areas of Air and water vapor. You'll put your hand down and it's happening right now on the table. There's two shadows, one and two. And they're lesser than they would be if there was just more angled to one of the light sources. Okay. That is why they had to do a miniature model in a vacuum that they created. So what they did was they put the mini model of the lunar module, it's in the vacuum room that they had access to at the Space center, and then they put the light source that would be a scaled proportionally. Yeah. A proportional distance away from the sun, to that scale model of the lunar module. And there they were able to find that. Yes. Especially if you take different camera angles and you take pictures in different places, it can give the appearance of the shadow lines either converging or diverging. So to me, I'm like, yeah, this question answered.
- [124:19]
B
You have to understand what the Moon is. The Moon is a giant reflector in the sky that God hung there to reflect the light of the sun.
- [124:28]
A
Could belong to you.
- [124:29]
B
It's also, if you become a. That's right.
- [124:32]
A
It could literally be.
- [124:33]
B
Thank you for reminding us. It could be yours for one easy payment. No, the Moon's a giant reflector. It's also not perfectly smooth. So it has multiple angles that are highly reflective that this very bright sunlight, unperturbed by an atmosphere is hitting. And what that does is several things. It can create different angles, angles of divergence of shadows. It can also illuminate things in shadows that then make it so that there actually is a gradient of light and expose multiple different subjects. So basically, we get what we would expect. If the Moon is what we think the Moon is, which is giant light reflector. It does all sorts of things to the light. It's not just perfectly smooth. And so a lot of that light stuff that was like, this is definitive from the beginning. Actually, it's not definitive.
- [125:25]
A
The Moon. I think that I'm right. No, I'm probably not right. What I was about to say. So the Earth at scale, if the Earth was the size of a cue ball for billiards, it would be Louis Giglio. If the Earth. If the Earth was a golf ball or ping pong ball.
- [125:42]
B
Go ahead.
- [125:43]
A
Okay. So if the Earth was shrunk down to the size of a billiard ball, it would be about as smooth as a billiard ball. Okay. Mount Everest, the Grand Canyon. It's about as smooth as a billiard ball. The Moon, I was going to say the Moon is probably smoother, but since the Moon is smaller, I don't actually know if that's true, but it's likely similar. Okay, so at a big scale, when you're looking at the Moon, it makes sense that the albedo would be as gone as it is. Like, it's either light or it's dark, and there is literally no in between because you're looking at something that is about as smooth as a billiards ball with no atmosphere. But when you go down, what are you smiling at?
- [126:25]
B
I'm just smiling at you because you're making a great point.
- [126:28]
A
You're looking good while you do it. Well, you're making me nervous. You're making me think that, like, oh, it's focused.
- [126:35]
B
So someone's gonna make the meme again. Find someone who looks at you the way Brian looks at Ben. And you know what?
- [126:41]
A
It's true. Well, I don't know if this is a good point. I don't know. But what I was gonna say was if you zoom in and it's as rough as the Moon surface is, and it is, like, pitted with kinds of craters and rocks and all this stuff, then now you have things that can be reflected off of that you didn't have at the big scale.
- [127:03]
B
Yeah. Like, this room is full of. If you were zoomed out all the way, just like nothing. But here he's reflecting light in all sorts of.
- [127:10]
A
Just like, literally, if you cut a piece off of a billiards. Paul. And I hate the Louie Giglio thing, but it's so true. If you cut a piece off of a billiards ball and put it under a microscope, and when it's sitting on the table and you had one light shining on it, there would be no massive diffraction of light or anything. But if you zoom in with a microscope and it shines with the light, there's going to be a ton.
- [127:31]
B
So it's not all the atmosphere.
- [127:32]
A
It's not all the atmosphere. It's all the surface. And when you. When you introduce the lunar module, you've introduced a new thing that wasn't there before. And there's plenty of rocks that can reflect off of that surface.
- [127:43]
B
The other thing people say is, how did they film him getting out for the first steps? Like, they had a thing. They planned for it. They deployed a camera automatically with a robotic mechanical device to film it. So it's like, how did they take so many pictures? It was so perfect. Well, because it took, like, 8,000. Well, they had chest rigs that were perfectly designed for this exact thing. You know, people say, how did the flag wave? Well, again, they replicated it.
- [128:10]
A
You're putting it in and you're moving it around and keeps moving.
- [128:13]
B
They'll say, the Van Allen belt, it's toroidal. There are thinner portions of it. They wore dosimeters. Dosimeters record radiation. And in the like three to four hours total between both there and back trips, they received about the amount of radiation that you would get from a year of Earth's normal average radiation. So you're being exposed to radiation from the Earth as well as the sky. Right now, pilots who fly at 30 plus thousand feet, they get exposed to more. And in fact, they have higher risks for certain things like cancer, because we're talking about radiation risk is it adds up. It, it gets bigger and bigger the more you're exposed over time. And it can cause your DNA to mutate, cancers, things like that. One of the things but the dosimeters show that they received it was more radiation. You know, yeah, it's not a year's worth, but that's not enough to really cause concern.
- [129:08]
A
Right.
- [129:09]
B
For a person. And you see most of these astronauts, many of them live to old age.
- [129:14]
A
One of the things that Bart Sibrel claims in his documentary is that one of the space shuttles, I can't remember which one, I think it was the Odyssey, tried to go into high Earth orbit again. They tried to be like the first one to go back into high Earth orbit, but they had to turn around and come back down because they were passing through the Van Allen belts and the astronauts were starting to see sparks and spots and they were getting very, very sick. And so they basically aborted it and came back down. I could not find anything to verify that.
- [129:44]
B
No. And also radiation exposure, like, let's say that you're a sailor in the US Navy or a submariner, and they run all sorts of drills that relate to reactor safety because they're driven by nuclear engines. And it's hugely important that they don't have radiation problems. They wear dosimeters. They have all sorts of things that would show if you were exposed to radiation, lethal dose, you wouldn't necessarily know it.
- [130:10]
A
No, the guy. The biggest moment of exposure for a single human was that guy with the blue light ball thing. Oh, yeah, the plutonium orb.
- [130:19]
B
And.
- [130:20]
A
And he, like dropped the container onto it.
- [130:22]
B
Horrible.
- [130:23]
A
It was really bad.
- [130:24]
B
He was dead right then. In a way.
- [130:26]
A
Yes, he was. He basically was a zombie at that point.
- [130:29]
B
His cells were no longer able to replicate. No.
- [130:31]
A
And so he, he died a few days later. But it Wasn't an immediate. He didn't immediately start vomiting and pass out. No, it's just his. His body died, but it took time for those cells to die off.
- [130:44]
B
In fact, horrible way to die because your body basically dies.
- [130:47]
A
It's one of the thousand ways to die that Spike TV talks about. Terrible show. Don't watch it.
- [130:53]
B
The Van Allen belts are not actually a problem. People say, like they would have needed all the shielding. Actually they don't. They didn't go during a solar flare activity. Yeah, there were no solar flare activity. And so there's different types of radiation. This can get technical. There's different types of radiation. Actually the thin aluminum shielding is effective against a lot of the normal types. At this thinner area, solar flares could have genuinely caused a lot more damage to them because they have different types of high energy particles that come through that the aluminum wouldn't. But in that case, actually lead shielding can be worse. This is one of the problems of colonizing Mars. Technical problem is that let's say that you're able to, with a lot of rocketry, send materials to even build a big radiation shield on the surface of Mars because there's no atmosphere to stop or not same atmosphere to stop the radiation. Much higher radiation on Mars. Even if you built a big lead shield over you in on Mars, that actually ends up trapping and re emitting radiation in a very dangerous way to the people inside over time.
- [131:55]
A
Yeah.
- [131:56]
B
So lead shielding can actually be a problem for shielding from certain types of radiation. So they like, believe it or not, these Christian men who got us to the moon. And it was Christian men who got us to the Moon largely. They had deeply studied these things. They were aware of the dangers. They knew it was very dangerous. People died doing this, of course, but they were thoughtful and they planned and they did tests. So another big one is that we have like thousands of pounds at this point, after all the missions and unmanned missions as well of lunar material.
- [132:35]
A
Yeah.
- [132:36]
B
And you can test lunar material against other samples of lunar material from lunar asteroids, things that come off the moon in impacts and land on the Earth. And we just have, I mean, the number of scientists, lab technicians, chemists, et cetera, who would have to be in on it at this point to say that yes, this sample really, it was from a no oxygen environment and it is unlike anything on Earth. And it is consistent with the lunar surface material that we have. We just have this material. It can be tested. It's been tested by hundreds of thousands of people at this point. And all of them would have to be either duped. And it becomes. There's so many points of information leak for something like this that it becomes implausible that even the US government with all of its abilities would be able to do this and pull it off. And especially without the communists finding out. Yeah, immediately they published like a page 13 newspaper article like the day after like the Americans went to the moon and they did.
- [133:41]
A
You know, like there have been massive projects that were undertaken that work at Totally, totally, you know, the Manhattan Project comes to of mine where they were able to keep that a secret. And all those people kept their mouth shut. But the thing is that was a fewer number of people. First of all, it was like 100,000. It was also a much smaller timeframe because it wasn't always going to be a secret.
- [134:05]
B
So we knew that it was going to get out that we could do this. But this is a good case in point because within just a brief period of time, spies who were convicted of this and I believe put to death for treason leaked it and the Soviets got it and so did all these other nations.
- [134:24]
A
And that's why we have such a.
- [134:26]
B
Big geopolitical problem today. Because what is a feat of a genius the first time is the feat of a competent engineer the second time. Once you figure out all the theoretical can this be done and how would you do it if it could be done? Questions then a competent engineer can now make a nuclear bomb when before it took the greatest minds on earth several years and a vast amount of money in research.
- [134:51]
A
I'm ready to conclude because I'm hungry.
- [134:54]
B
There's more now. We need to go through a couple more.
- [134:56]
A
Okay, well, before you do that, I'm going to conclude because I am kidding. I just want to say, I do want to say while it's fresh on my mind, yeah, it is easy to get, I think swept in to the moon landing denial thing for the same. I think for the same reasons. It's easy to get swept into the flat earth thing. You have been lied to a lot by people that you are supposed to be able to trust. And that calls everything into question. I'm not saying not to question that. It does call everything into question. However, it is sensationalism, like the moon landing denial thing. You get swept up in it because there's a lot of drama and theater that come in with the moon landing denial. Bart Sibrel is a sensationalizing guy. Bill Kayson was the same. A lot of these people that continue to propagate this not false counter narrative and I do think that there's aspects of it that should be called into question. And they did actually fake and lie.
- [135:53]
B
About some of the footage, some of the film.
- [135:55]
A
Yeah, I totally think that. But at the end of the day, this is not an example of your government is trying to lie to you, to harm you and withhold things that are pertinent to you, like JFK and Martin Luther King and Richard Nixon and the virus that must not be named and things like that. This is like the great achievement of the Christian west, technologically speaking. And in terms of the exploratory spirit, the manifest destiny of the Christian West. And they want to take it away from you. Why? So that the Communists can have it. I'm sorry, Just at a basic level of cosmic justice, I reject that.
- [136:34]
B
Commies can take the L. Commies can.
- [136:36]
A
Take the L. Russia can take the L. We went to the moon first. You never went. Take it.
- [136:41]
B
Okay, couple more. The communications were scripted. Of course they were scripted.
- [136:45]
A
It was the end.
- [136:48]
B
It was stage theater. They scripted a lot of it. They knew there were going to be lengthy delays between statement and response. So they were literally scripted. They had stage managers on the line saying, now you say this, now you say that. All scripted. They knew exactly what they were going to say ahead of time on all this stuff. The whole. Well, my cell phone doesn't work sometimes. So therefore, okay, if the government, if anybody today, wanted to make a cell phone that never dropped the call. Easy, it wouldn't even be difficult. No, the problem is that we have, like a billion cell phones, and we are trying to basically keep most of them most of the time working, because the cost of making one work every time, it'd be astronomical.
- [137:34]
A
Let me tell you. This is how it's done. You have a phone and a satellite dish, some bones, okay? And the satellite bones are the size of a satellite bone that would today support thousands of phones.
- [137:49]
B
Yeah.
- [137:49]
A
Thousands of thousands of phones. It's dedicated to one.
- [137:51]
B
And you zap a huge amount of one.
- [137:52]
A
One, one, one, one.
- [137:53]
B
All right?
- [137:54]
A
You give it all the energy that it needs, and then guess what, where it's going. Somewhere where there's nothing in between you and it that could stop the signal from there.
- [138:05]
B
Okay?
- [138:06]
A
And so obviously, it never dropped the call.
- [138:10]
B
And they used multiple of these around the Earth. Because the Earth rotates.
- [138:13]
A
Yeah. Like, this is not. This is actually one of the pretty simple, easiest things to explain.
- [138:17]
B
It sounds kind of good when you say it out loud, like. Well, yeah. But once you think about it, you're like, no, that. That's actually not difficult. We can do that. Another one that people will point to is some of these mysterious. Like, well, there was the death. There was this, There was that. But a lot of them, again, when you just look at the details, they're either. They either depend on a single source, and that source can have a reason for. Like, when I hear of, like, a sensational story about an alien abduction or something like that, and there's just, like. There's no. The most compelling ones to me are the ones that involve multiple people. Like the. The Kelly Hopkinsville encounter, where you have, like, police that are called that multiple times. There's physical evidence here and there. Like, there's stuff that's involved in them. I'm not just one person sort of making things up. Oh, they'll say the telemetry data was lost. Okay. Well, the telemetry data, there was a vast amount of it. We're talking about, like, the data from the movement of every single component on the ship over multiple missions, over a decade plus, stored on magnetic tape reels that are large and actually kind of cumbersome and annoying to store. And then we're also talking about something that's valuable. You can reuse these, wipe them and reuse them. And it's a government bureaucracy.
- [139:38]
A
Yeah, that stuff.
- [139:39]
B
It's not that hard to see how this would happen.
- [139:41]
A
You mentioned it earlier. I was an engineer for the A10. The A10 was designed by Fairchild Aerospace Corporation. Fairchild was then bought, like, three or four times. Eventually, it got wrapped into Northrop Grumman, and I was subcontracted to Northrop Grumman, who was contracted by the Air Force. I. Part of my job was to look at old stress reports written by Fairchild employees when the A10 was being built to determine load path patterns, to figure out how much load would be on one fastener. Yeah. Okay. So that I could replace the fastener with an equivalent.
- [140:13]
B
Yeah.
- [140:14]
A
Most of those reports were lost.
- [140:16]
B
Yeah.
- [140:17]
A
And the A10 was still being flown.
- [140:20]
B
That's crazy.
- [140:20]
A
Like, and here's the thing. It's so easy for that to happen because this is what the government does. They go through a round of funding and congressional debate and all of these committees and all this stuff, and they. And they determine, you know what we're going to do? We're going to discontinue the A10.
- [140:34]
B
Yeah.
- [140:35]
A
And then a few months later, after the Marines and the army and the Navy all asked to buy. Buy all the A10s from the air Force. The Air Force says maybe that was not a good idea. Maybe we'll king the A10. But it's too late. Because so much of the work that had been done 30 years prior already got thrown out because they were told, well, we're going to discontinue it, so there's no need to keep that stuff. You keep the new stuff. But then they backtrack and you realize, shoot, now we need that old stuff again. But it's too late. It's gone. We lost it. And this happens all the time.
- [141:03]
B
All the time with important stuff. Like, my daddy again, he worked in ICBMs. And there are stories from the ICBM world of this one component in the Minuteman program. This is like 60s level 60s, 70s, 80s type of stuff. Now, the government's actually in the process of building the next generation of these, like, right now. So they'll find some component that has to be rebuilt or they have to manufacture new ones to replace in the old Minutemen. And they'll be like, where did we get this? Yeah, it was this contractor in 1982 that made it. That company no longer exists and hasn't since 1987.
- [141:40]
A
Yeah.
- [141:40]
B
And so they'll go find. And sometimes they're like. They found three guys that still know what this thing was from that company, and they're like, can you make us more? And they're like, yeah, that'll be $15 million.
- [141:48]
A
Yeah.
- [141:49]
B
For, like, a little widget. And because of the processes that it has to go through in an ICBM to, like, have be certified. This is why they have $20,000 bolts on jets. Because they have to go through these processes to make sure that we know that that bolt is going to work for this thing and not risk life.
- [142:07]
A
And I've seen loading grid data sheets for entire, like, important parts on the A10 that if it fails, the plane is falling out of the sky and Ethan's screwed, covered in stress data and loads and all this stuff grade. And like, half of the data points are circled in a big red marker with a question mark beside it. Because ever since the guy at Fairchild wrote it in the 1960s or whatever, no one has been able to figure out where he got that data from. No one's been able to reproduce it in any of the computer models that we now have. And guess what? It still flies. But the plane flies planes, big tolerances like the. You know, these things. It just. It's so easy for this to happen.
- [142:51]
B
Yeah. There's hundreds of thousands of people, multiple government agencies, multiple contracting, which are private firms that are manufacturing these things. The things about private firms. This is also to. The technology doesn't exist. Private firms don't have any reason to keep doing something that they're not getting paid to do.
- [143:08]
A
Right.
- [143:08]
B
So the government says, we're done with the Apollo program. We're not gonna do it. Yeah. There's a bunch of data that still. This is gonna be overblown. A bunch of the stuff does exist. Like how reports of how they did detail schematics, whatever. But they don't keep all of the ability to tomorrow turn it back on and manufacture all the Apollo stuff.
- [143:27]
A
Why?
- [143:27]
B
Because they don't get paid to do that.
- [143:29]
A
There's no money in it.
- [143:30]
B
There's no money to do that.
- [143:31]
A
Yeah. So it. It just. And you know, maybe that's a flaw of the. Of the. The NASA structure and its ties to capitalism and. Sure. But like, the fact is that's just.
- [143:42]
B
The way that a bunch of nefarious stuff happens in this process too, where some of the $20,000 bolts are. $20,000 because the bolt costs $18 and $19,982 went to the CIA to go do something in Nicaragua that was bad.
- [143:57]
A
Or to prevent there being a surplus in the contract so that the next year they would get the same amount. And there's also that, like, you know, these companies have interns and those interns are stupid. I was one. And they make a ton of m. Mistakes like this. Literally, people. Yeah. So. So, dude.
- [144:14]
B
100%. All that said. 100%.
- [144:15]
A
We went to the moon.
- [144:16]
B
We went to the moon.
- [144:17]
A
We went to the moon in 1969.
- [144:19]
B
Not.
- [144:19]
A
Not 1970, but a year sooner.
- [144:22]
B
We went to the moon in 1970.
- [144:26]
A
You can listen to Brian serenade you into this beautiful conclusion of the episode. If you enjoyed this content, follow us on YouTube. Subscribe to us on a podcast. Go check out our patreon. We would love to see you there. And we will see you next time on Haunted Cosmos, known moon landing affirmers. And thank you guys for listening. We did. We went. This episode was one small step for man, but one giant leap for mankind.
- [145:01]
B
Disguise giant angel cries we hear other lies Moon ey children here to steal your soul Bigfoot skin walkers are from my control I'm dangerous fools I'm so.
- [145:17]
A
Scared all this mystery I'm not prepared.
- [145:26]
B
On table God save us now take.
- [145:32]
A
Our hand show us how.