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- [00:04]
Ben
The world is not just stuff.
- [00:11]
Brian
Minus 111.9.
- [00:23]
Ben
Widely publicized mystery of the flying saucers may soon be solved the.
- [00:40]
Brian
Wall stared back at the man in a taunting beige. It was littered with the pictures and awards of an illustrious military career. But none of those things mattered. The wall was not conquered. It still held its power over the man. His name was Albert Stubblebine. He was a major general in the U.S. army, overseeing some 16,000 troops as the chief of that branch's intelligence BR program. The year was 1983. His reasons for staring back at the wall were not founded on any actual ill will. He felt for the wall. He just wanted to know it completely. He wanted to master it. How could he not master something as simple as a couple layers of sheetrock and a few pine studs? But after so much time spent without success, his feelings toward the wall started to become personal. So he sat at his desk and studied it, looking past the awards wall's essence. He muttered strange things under his breath. It's just made up of atoms. Atoms are mostly empty space. So am I. Why shouldn't I be able to do it? He was lucky to be alone in his office. Doubtless he looked somewhat like a maniac speaking and staring this way. Stubblebine stood up, never taking his eyes off the wall. He side shuffled around his mahogany desk and stood tall at its side. He visualized it over and over again in his head. He reminded himself once more that the wall was there for him, not he for it. Without a blink of further hesitation, he leaned forward, eyes still piercing the wall, and ran as fast as he could across the wide office. He jumped forward in the last few feet and slammed his lunging body, his feet first and then his face, hard into the still unyielding wall. From his new position on the floor, he looked up at the wall staring down at him. He hated that wall. Why wouldn't it let him through? 30 years before this singular incident between Stubblebine and the stubborn wall, the then director of the CIA, Alan Dulles, stood before a group of Princeton alumni that he was lecturing and stated the dark Prophecy. Mind warfare is the great battlefield of the Cold War, and we have to do whatever it takes to win this. With those words, Dulles began a chain of events that led to intrigue and horror beyond what he possibly could have predicted. It led to the death of Frank Olson, the macabre practices of Sidney Gottlieb, and even the killings of multiple prominent US Statesmen, things our listeners are familiar with from previous episodes. But it also led to less prominent oddities. Things like General Stubblebine trying to phase through the wall in his office, for example. And while that particular example is more funny than anything else, the line of thinking it represents was prominent in many dark corners of the United States military and intelligence complexes at the time. Perhaps it still is today. And the strangeness it led to is something we may only just now be beginning to reckon with. Guy Savelli was playing with his young children in the backyard when he received the call. It was the summer of 1983. The man on the other line called himself Colonel John Alexander with the Army Special Forces out of Fort Bragg. Savelli remained silent for a long moment before asking what Alexander was calling for. We understand you have expertise in a particular form of martial arts, Kuntao, I believe. Yes, well, I'm in charge of some specific type of training for the Green Berets here at Bragg, and I could really use your help. We want our soldiers to be holistically elite these days. That means incorporating some mystical type methods into their arsenal. Do you understand? Savelli did not totally understand, but he knew well enough what type of expertise he could offer. He accepted the opportunity to showcase his skill set for the world's elite soldiers. And so he found himself on a flight down to Georgia the following day. The facility was not a very impressive it was a bit ramshackle and closed off from the rest of the base. Savelli felt like he was going into a dark corner of the complex, one that knowing eyes did not want unknowing eyes to pay much attention to. When he entered, he saw a room filled with plastic chairs, all pointed towards a podium like a sort of miniature lecture hall. The incandescent bulbs flickered in some spaces, adding to the eerie and dreamlike feeling. His escort waved him forward through the two metal doors and into a hall lined with what seemed like observation windows. He followed his host down the pale lit hallway and looked into each window in turn. What he saw in the ones which were not empty was so uncanny it nearly frightened him. The rooms were filled with quite possibly the very last thing Savelli had expected to see in such a setting. Goats. Goats staring back at the window. Even more strangely, many of them wore plaster casts on one of their legs. And by about the third window he passed, he noticed that though the goats opened their mouths to bleat, no sound came out, and the rooms were definitely not soundproof. He could hear their hooves clacking on the floor. He asked the soldier walking before him what they were doing, why they have these casts? Why can't they bleat. The soldier replied that they had all had their vocal cords severed as part of a medical training exercise for some local Green Berets. This also explained the strange plaster casts, which apparently covered gunshot wounds intentionally inflicted on the animals for the training exercise. At the end of the hallway was a final room without a window. A soldier opened it and stood to the side to let Seville in. First he entered and found a fairly well put together office containing four or five men. One of them, he assumed it was Colonel Alexander, sat at the massive wooden desk on the far side of the room. The other men filled the plush chairs lining the walls. After the normal introductory pleasantries, Savelli sat down in one of the chairs. From there it was right down to business arranging the next morning's trial, for which Savelli demanded a healthy goat, no broken leg, no severed vocal cords, and said that he would try what they wanted at first light. The following morning was typical of a Georgia summer. The sun beat down through the heavy humidity, making the world feel like a preheating oven. Despite the oppressive heat, it really was actually a beautiful place. But this external beauty only served as a foil for the ugliness unfolding inside of that dilapidated building on the base's far corner. Guy Savelli knelt on the cold floor of one of the observation rooms. He stared blankly at the blank wall which separated him from the next one. In that adjacent room stood a single goat next to a soldier who sat in a folding chair beside a video camera set up and recording. Savelli started to feel that familiar conviction well up inside him. He focused his mind and leaned slightly.
- [08:02]
Ben
Forward toward the wall.
- [08:04]
Brian
In his mind's eye a golden road fell before him which led into the whitest clouds in a bright sky. He said that he saw the Lord there, or someone claiming to be the Lord God. Savelli walked into this being's outstretched arms and felt a brutally cold chill run through his whole body. He knew then that he would succeed. He pictured a painting he had once seen of St. Michael the Archangel bearing down on the satanic dragon with a gleaming spear. He replaced the dragon with a mental picture of the goat standing in the other room. Michael slammed the spear into the goat's side and pinned it hard into the ground. He bent all of his will upon this image until he believed in his core that it was true, that it was something which was really happening already. After 15 minutes of this, he stood up, exited the room, and told the attending officer to check on the goat for him. When the officer peeked into the window of the Next room, his mouth fell open. The goat had fallen over onto its side. It lay there for a while, about another 15 minutes of shallow breathing before slowly standing back up again. Savelli had done it, but it was not enough. The next morning he knelt once more in the same spot as the day prior. He stared again at the same spot on the wall. In the next room, per his request, stood 30 healthy goats, all numbered with spray paint markings on their sides. Around the perimeter of the room stood armed guards for the protection of the sanctity of the experiment. Savelli chose the number 16. And thus began the second trial. But this time it was different. His vision was clouded with visions of an angry and face painted green beret yelling at him, Kill the goat. When he entered into the arms of his familiar spirit, the imposter Lord. He heard the shouted command when he saw Michael stabbing downwards onto the goat. This time he heard the shrill sound again. Kill the goat. He labored to focus all his psychic energy, pushed to his mental and spiritual limit by the swirling distractions. Finally he exited the room again and told the officer to go check number 16. But number 16 was fine. Goat number 17, however, was crumpled to the ground, limp and dead from the unseen attack through the wall. This gruesome episode at Fort Bragg was another product of Dulles charge to the intelligence apparatus to engage in the warfare of the mind. Its almost comical absurdity has since been immortalized in a book by author John Robson, the Men who Stare at Goats. But this was still not the deepest part of the iceberg. In 1972, as part of the effort to ensure American espionage supremacy at the height of the Cold War, the CIA began investigating the legitimacy of psychic powers in self proclaimed spiritualists. Keeping the reality of the new mental theater of war at the forefront, the agency wanted to formally study the feasibility of training their own undercover agents in the use of psychic power powers. It began with sponsoring psychic research at places like the Stanford Research Institute before slowly morphing into agency led studies with psychics like Ingo Swann and Pat Price, who specialized in what is known as remote viewing. The art of extending the mind to another place to gain accurate information about that place. Allegedly, these studies proved unexpectedly fruitful with Pat Price producing an accurate layout with of a top secret Soviet military installation in far off Siberia. After six years of this, the CIA sponsored the army's official launch of something called Project Stargate, A black budget operation spearheaded by the army and CIA that took the practice of remote viewing to the furthest corners they could. The man they chose to lead the project was the aforementioned Major General Albert Stubblebine. From the project's inception to its official closure in 1995, it generated reams of classified documentation on the validity and real world use of remote viewing in the Cold War and beyond. Once 1995 hit and the project shut down, all the documents were declassified. The modern world has still failed to properly reckon with all the effects and potentialities of this 20 year investigation into the strange and esoteric. What happens when man seems to extend beyond himself, when he tries to sunder the soul from the body, not in death, but to go forth as a shade into the world, spying out hidden things? And if he sets his face to this work, what strange things might he find in the attempt? Remote viewer Number one entered the dimly lit room and laid back onto the leather chair. He could feel the raised brass pins and leather grain of the chair beneath his arms, but this faded to background noise as he listened intently to the coordinates given to him. With stunning rapidity, his mind fled from his own place and time and entered into an ether of endless potentiality. He flew as if on the wind over the Atlantic and on over Western Europe until he reached territories of icy cold. There he sensed that he had arrived at the coordinates fed to him and so lowered his flight to only a few dozen feet above the ground. He told the residing officer that he reckoned himself to be somewhere near Finland or the Eastern Bloc. The officer's pen scratched against the notepad in response. Number One expressed the feeling of intense cold, along with the perception of being over a kind of wasteland trapped in the snow. In the center of the cool desert he could see a large industrial building, brutalist in its style. Smokestacks lined a portion of one of the walls and they spat jet black smoke out in what seemed like an eternal exhale. The smoke and the building were the only breaks in the vision from the endless rolling white. Near enough to be seen in the distance was what seemed to the viewer to be a vast ocean covered in ice. The attending officer called the viewer out of his trance and confirmed that his description matched precisely with what little intelligence they had about this troubling place, hoping it would allow the viewer a man he had come to Trust named Joseph McMonigle, to see deeper into the facility's secrets. He showed him the image they had acquired from their traditional surveillance assets. The picture showed the icy setting, the ice covered ocean, the industrial building, and stacks of shipping containers all around it. What the containers held was a mystery. The exact location of the building also remained a mystery. The product of the building's industry was a mystery. All of these were what the army and CIA hoped that McMonagle could help them discover. For his part, McMonagle had been named remote viewer number one for Project Stargate in 1978, when the project officially began. Since then, he had cultivated a reputation among the men he worked with of being sincerely and actually psychic. His ability to accurately and remotely view things he had no previous knowledge of was, at the time of this session, a given at Stargate. Prior to his introduction to the project, McMonagle was a fairly ordinary army officer. What separated him from his contemporaries was was his reason for enlisting in the army in the first place. He did it to get away from family and the strange effects his family's troubles had had on him. You see, from the earliest time that McMonagle could recall, he always remembered escaping into realer than real visions of the night. Anytime his family was enduring a particularly violent bout of abuse or poverty. He could never explain the visions, but he could also never ignore them. By the time he was brought into Project Stargate, they had read his psyche vows and wanted to explore the meaning of his visions. He was sure that the visions were some sort of coping mechanism he had developed to escape from where he was, if not physically, then at least in every other possible sense. Back on the leather chair, the officer asked McMonagle what he thought could possibly be inside the building. McMonagle closed his eyes in response and sank once more back into the leather cushions. They held him as if in a cloud while his mind's eye flew back over the arctic dunes. He found the building again. He descended upon it again. He came all the way down to the flat roof of the structure and he passed through that as well. He hovered just beneath the ceiling of the gigantic building, staring down in shock at what lay below. His first surprise was just how massive the building truly was. It appeared far bigger from the inside than it had even seemed from without. He described it as being the size of maybe two or three full size shopping centers all shoved together under a single roof. He couldn't see any of the perimeter walls, only two load bearing walls running straight down the middle with enormous cased up openings frequently peppered within them. He tried to recall without breaking the connection that he was not actually flying inside the building in body, but only in soul, only in mind. He pressed himself back into the cushions with an effort to keep his body from falling forward onto the floor. He re examined the space between the walls. Each cavity was filled with webs of scaffolding around some kind of large cigar shaped metal object. The one furthest from him appeared old and rusted out, and so McMonigle turned from it, concluding that it couldn't possibly be the main point of the facility. Instead, he bent all of his will on studying the enormous thing in the center cavity. Amid flashes of light from welding torches and unseen overhead spotlights following workers around the object, he could discern what were like two separate cigars being molded into one. A reverse mitosis by mankind's mind of metal. And somehow, in the crystal clarity of his psychic reach, he knew what it was he was looking at. It was a new submarine under construction. He could not point to anything concrete for his certainty, only an impression. The light did not light up the rear of the vessel, and it was too incomplete to see really any telltale submersible signs on it. But he knew, and he knew that if he was right, it was by far the largest submersible that had ever been made on the Earth. The building sang with disjointed noise of men shouting and metal clanging and sparks firing out of grinders. Things were dropped and their falls echoed around the entire monstrous facility as they hit the scaffolding. During their descent, smoke began to cloud the vision from all of the forges and torches being operated. McMonagle started to lose the clear vision that he had taken for granted for those first few precious seconds. All of these inputs made him confused. It made the mind's world spin and fold in on itself until he could not report on what he was seeing in real time whatsoever. He only said that he saw something big, something he thought was a submarine being made inside of the great building. Three days later, McMonagle journeyed back into that same building. Now knowing what to expect, he refused to tarry at the size of the building and the object in its central cavity. He rushed as ethereal spirit to the side of the massive thing and hovered around it, studying it. He pushed all the cacophonous noise and sparking lights out of his mind until all that existed in the cosmos were he and the hulking machine hovering in black before him. Now he knew it was a submarine. It could be nothing else. Else but its apparent twin parallel fuselages confused him. He did not think this was possible in a submarine. The propulsion system was cloaked to him in the rear of the vessel, but its outline of shadow made him think it was some sort of new technology that had never been seen before. The canted tubes which would hold its world Ending ballistic missiles meant it would be able to fire those missiles even while it was in motion. But the size of it. The size is what he could not get around. He estimated it to be fully 600ft long and 70ft wide, with another 70ft or so making up its height. It almost seemed to go forever in any direction from his hovering vantage point. He wondered at it over long before finally returning to his body there in the room and providing a detailed report. He spoke, wrote and drew until he had recorded everything that he knew. He was shaking with excitement at having found something so monumentally important, for he was sure it was monumentally important. The report was sent and McMonagle eagerly waited for the response. But when it came, it only deflated him. All of his report was rejected out of hand by the National Security Council. They chastised the finding as ridiculous. How could a submarine so large be launched from a facility so far from the water? How could it be launched at all into water covered with thick ice? McMonagle provided for this, saying that he looked into the future and found machinery cutting an enormous channel in the earth from the building straight over to that icy sea that those same machines joined with icebreakers to rid the shore of ice and snow. They only laughed him away. He told them it would be done in four months time. They laughed even harder. But four months later new satellite images came in from the site. They showed a man made canal running from the building to the sea. Near the end of the canal sat a new class of submarine the likes of which had never been imagined before. It had canted missile tubes and came in at almost 600ft in length and 70 in height. Its width was an oblate oval shape of 40ft or so. Later drawings would show the length to be a metal shell around two fuselages that had been molded together. It was the Soviet Typhoon class submarine. The largest submarine ever made. To this day, the nighttime is crawling with dangerous creatures. Bigfoot, Sleep paralysis demons. The Mothman. Now imagine what would make them even more terrifying. That's right. Guns. Cryptids with guns. That's where Armored Republic comes in. They equip law abiding citizens to stand against the unthinkable. Even if it's a gun wielding devil worshiping Bigfoot. From combat tested coatings to high performance carriers. Every piece of their ballistic armor and tactical gear is built to protect. Visit armoredrepublic.com or text join all CAPS J O I n to 88027 to get involved in the preparedness effort.
- [23:47]
Ben
Brian, I got bad news the other day, I was using one of the big box soap products to wash myself, and I got this weird urge to go buy a Stanley cup and fill it with iced coffee. And it started to feel a little cold in the house. I just wanted to wrap myself up in, like, a heavy wool blanket. And then also I started googling ticket prices to Taylor Swift concerts.
- [24:09]
Brian
Ben, what are you doing? Don't you know that these big box soap companies just jam all their soaps full of hormone disrupting chemicals? They're probably turning you into a girl.
- [24:18]
Ben
Well, I know that now, but what am I supposed to do about it then?
- [24:21]
Brian
You ignorant Normie? All you've needed to do is go to indigosundrysoap.com and support a great Christian family business that's making all sorts of soaps that are completely free of hormone disrupting chemicals and other nasties.
- [24:34]
Ben
Okay, I am literally going to indigosundrysoap.com right now. Tell me what to buy.
- [24:39]
Brian
Ben, what I would recommend doing is clicking on bundles and then selecting the best one for you. You could get the men's six pack. You could get my favorite, the clay bundle.
- [24:47]
Ben
Ooh, I like the pipe and jug bundle. That seems cool. Or a men's six pack, because that'll make me feel like I have something that I actually don't.
- [24:55]
Brian
So true King. And you know what else I heard? Because there's good friends of the show, Indigo Sundry Soap Company is offering 10% off your order if you just use all caps, discount code, Haunted Cosmos, no spaces.
- [25:07]
Ben
Wait, Brian, you're going way too fast. I didn't get all that. Is that information in the show description?
- [25:12]
Brian
Ben, you ignorant Normie. It's always in the show description.
- [25:16]
Ben
Okay, so I'm going to go to indigosundrysoap.com I'm going to pick the men's six pack bundle, and I'm going to use code Haunted Cosmos at checkout. All caps, no spaces. And if I forgot all that, it's in the description of the show.
- [25:28]
Brian
Of course, Ben. And if you just do that, then you will stop wanting to do all of those girly things and maybe you'll, I don't know, maybe want to buy a classic car to restore or something. Dignified man, Ben. I knew we were handsome, but I didn't know we were that handsome until I saw our recent Haunted Cosmos thumbnails.
- [25:47]
Ben
Yeah, your skin looks so velvety smooth.
- [25:50]
Brian
I mean, it's unbelievable. Chris at New Dominion Design Company did an absolutely fantastic job, not only on those thumbnails, but on Our recent book cover as well.
- [25:59]
Ben
Yeah, exactly. And if you need some design work from Chris, you should go to newdominiondesignco.com, get started there. And he'll serve you right, man.
- [26:07]
Brian
He will make you look 50% as handsome as Ben, guaranteed.
- [26:16]
Ben
Welcome, everyone, to season five, episode two of Haunted Cosmos. Wasn't entirely sure of season number.
- [26:23]
Brian
We're kind of like remote viewers because we're in the future right now.
- [26:26]
Ben
Yeah, we're kind of like remote viewers because we are in the future right now.
- [26:32]
Brian
It's currently, like, I don't even know. The date's March something, right?
- [26:35]
Ben
It's March 10th. Hey, my son's birthday is tomorrow.
- [26:38]
Brian
Is it really?
- [26:38]
Ben
Ambrose.
- [26:39]
Brian
Happy birthday, Ambrose.
- [26:40]
Ben
Little Broshi.
- [26:41]
Brian
What a. What a. What a kinglet.
- [26:43]
Ben
What a guy. He is the. Anyway, can I just say, first of.
- [26:46]
Brian
All, we want to apologize.
- [26:48]
Ben
Fort Bragg is in Georgia.
- [26:50]
Brian
It's not. It's. No, it's not. It's in North Carolina.
- [26:53]
Ben
Hey, Fort Bragg is in Georgia.
- [26:55]
Brian
Okay.
- [26:55]
Ben
I was thinking.
- [26:56]
Brian
We're not changing it.
- [26:57]
Ben
When I was. No, we're not changing it.
- [26:59]
Brian
We're not fixing it.
- [27:00]
Ben
When I was writing it and I kept reading about John Alexander at Fort Bragg, I was thinking in my head of Fort Benning, which is. I thought it was weird because that's where the Ranger school was. And they kept talking about Green Berets, Green Brays.
- [27:11]
Brian
I was like, what are the Green Berets doing at Benning?
- [27:13]
Ben
Yeah. I was like, well, whatever. It's clearly forthpinning. Yeah. So anyway, all of you braggers. Sorry about that.
- [27:20]
Brian
Hey, listen, every other aspect of that cold open was correct except that.
- [27:24]
Ben
Yeah. And at the end of the day, this is for the troops.
- [27:27]
Brian
Yeah, for the troops.
- [27:28]
Ben
So. Yeah. Welcome to this episode of Hana Cosmos. We're going to be talking today about remote viewing.
- [27:33]
Brian
I have been excited to do this episode, Ben, since. Since that fateful day in the Chili's.
- [27:39]
Ben
Yeah.
- [27:40]
Brian
Like years ago when we scrawled out a bunch of ideas. Remote viewing is one of my absolute favorite topics because it brings together so many questions that we like to consider on Hana Cosmos. Like innate human abilities.
- [27:54]
Ben
Yeah.
- [27:55]
Brian
Spiritual abilities, like Ben.
- [27:57]
Ben
Sorry, I'm yawning. I'm yawning really bad.
- [27:59]
Brian
Ben just personally gave birth to a baby, so he's pretty tired.
- [28:04]
Ben
I did Cordelia, but my wife sure did.
- [28:07]
Brian
That's fair. Fair. Anyway, familiar spirits like witchcraft, the modern expressions of historic occultic weirdness. It's got everything.
- [28:17]
Ben
Yeah. Modern versions of government doing weird government conspiracy.
- [28:20]
Brian
Okay. What does the Government have against goats.
- [28:24]
Ben
Can I just say. Here you go. You ready for a hot tip?
- [28:28]
Brian
Okay.
- [28:29]
Ben
Okay. All you young men out there, who.
- [28:31]
Brian
Are unmarried, do not listen to this.
- [28:33]
Ben
First of all, get married.
- [28:35]
Brian
Okay, that's.
- [28:36]
Ben
And here's maybe how. Okay, this part.
- [28:38]
Brian
Don't listen.
- [28:39]
Ben
Let's say you're trying to woo a lovely woman, and you're like, I'm gonna win. I'm gonna win her. I'm gonna win her heart. Yeah, it's gonna be great. Kay. But you keep running into this problem commonly faced by many men.
- [28:48]
Brian
No, we all. We've all been there.
- [28:49]
Ben
Is that the woman keeps running away.
- [28:51]
Brian
We've all been there.
- [28:52]
Ben
Just shoot her in the leg.
- [28:55]
Brian
We're gonna get censored on. Hey, don't do that.
- [28:59]
Ben
I know that we say that things were a joke when they really weren't. That was.
- [29:02]
Brian
It's not cool to do crimes.
- [29:05]
Ben
No, it isn't. Unless that crime is something cool.
- [29:08]
Brian
It's still not cool to do. No, it just. It cracks me up. They're like, okay, we don't want to get the goats. Them running away, but also, like, the Green Beret. They need to, like, practice their medical attention for gunshot wounds. Two birds, one stone.
- [29:22]
Ben
Two birds, one stone. We shoot all the goats in the.
- [29:24]
Brian
Leg, and we sever their vocal cords so they can't yell.
- [29:27]
Ben
And I love how Savelli was like, yeah, I'm gonna need a helpful goat.
- [29:32]
Brian
He's like, I don't want. But also, why, when I mind kill this goat. I don't want anybody to be. No, it's because he didn't want to be like, oh, it was the blood poisoning from us from all the freakish surgery we did on the goats.
- [29:44]
Ben
This Green Beret got his dirty knife all up in the throat.
- [29:48]
Brian
Seriously, like, he goes through all this effort to mind kill this goat, and then some scientist comes in and he's like, but did you shoot the goat in the leg and cut its throat, like, days before?
- [29:57]
Ben
Because that may be relevant.
- [29:58]
Brian
Because that could be relevant.
- [29:59]
Ben
So Savelli's like, hey, workaround.
- [30:01]
Brian
Find me the healthiest goat. Find me the goat of goats.
- [30:04]
Ben
Give me a live goat, a healthy goat that I can then kill. A scapegoat, if you will. Hey, all those goats, by the way, were probably demons.
- [30:15]
Brian
Oh, 100%. I'm just gonna say goats are just basically demons.
- [30:18]
Ben
Yeah. So let's be real here. I have completely forgotten what we were supposed to do in these.
- [30:24]
Brian
What we do need to say, just real quick, is, welcome the show. If you Love Haunted Cosmos. And you want to support the work here, you need to go to Haunted Cosmos Supercast.
- [30:34]
Ben
Yeah.
- [30:34]
Brian
And you need to sign up for one of our patronage tiers for two reasons. Three reasons.
- [30:39]
Ben
Hey, you say the first and then I'll say the second, and then you say the third.
- [30:42]
Brian
The first reason is because you just want more Haunted Cosmos and so you want to gain access to our patron exclusive show, the Dusty Tome, a weekly storytelling, 100% scripted show. It's like a cold open.
- [30:56]
Ben
Yeah. But usually a little longer.
- [30:58]
Brian
It's called Oops Only Cold open.
- [31:00]
Ben
Yeah, Like Oops Only Openly Berries for Cap' n Crunch, which is one of Brian's favorite cereals.
- [31:05]
Brian
All the tiers get access to the Dusty Tome, right?
- [31:07]
Ben
Yep.
- [31:07]
Brian
Every single patron tier every week.
- [31:09]
Ben
As if you did.
- [31:09]
Brian
Well, I didn't remember, actually.
- [31:11]
Ben
Okay. Hey. Well, here's reason number two to consider signing up to support the show. If you sign up for one of the top two tiers, there's three levels of support. If you sign up for the two upper levels, you will have all of season five at your disposal to binge.
- [31:30]
Brian
At your will at your leisure right now.
- [31:32]
Ben
Because we're recording this on March 10, 2025.
- [31:36]
Brian
Yeah.
- [31:37]
Ben
I don't know when this is coming out, but it's like sometime in May months. Yeah. So that means that we're way ahead of the ball game for once. And that means that if you sign up to be a patron at the upper two levels, you get all of season five.
- [31:50]
Brian
You can stream the season on demand, free to you. Yes, the whole season is up on demand right now. You can go stream it. And the third reason. Just stole it.
- [31:58]
Ben
Oh, I'm sorry, that seemed like more.
- [32:01]
Brian
We're basically mentally linked.
- [32:03]
Ben
Yeah.
- [32:03]
Brian
The third reason is that all of the tiers always get all of our episodes ad free.
- [32:06]
Ben
I already said that.
- [32:07]
Brian
So the first. First year doesn't get it early, but they get it ad free when it comes out public. So if you're one of the people that complain, like, we actually just recently found out that YouTube was running like 50 ads on our show. First of all. Sorry. Yeah, we fixed that.
- [32:21]
Ben
That's our bad.
- [32:21]
Brian
If you were bugged, go back and. And we're. We're not doing that. That wasn't us. That was the Google people, the Indians at Google.
- [32:29]
Ben
So we fixed that. What was us was the staunch belief that we couldn't do anything about it and that people were overblowing the problem.
- [32:37]
Brian
And then we were.
- [32:37]
Ben
It turns out both of those things were wrong.
- [32:39]
Brian
We can fully control this.
- [32:41]
Ben
We are 100% to blame. We're sorry.
- [32:43]
Brian
The problem is we're dumb.
- [32:46]
Ben
Yeah, I mean it's right there on the YouTube.
- [32:49]
Brian
It's right there on the YouTube. So if you want to listen ad free. Cause the problem is, let's say that you're the average Hana Cosmos listener, you're listening to the podcast, you get to our ad breaks which are tasteful and few and far between. First of all, may I just say.
- [33:00]
Ben
And hilarious.
- [33:01]
Brian
And hilarious. You start skipping them, let me say every time you hit that 30 second ahead button, what happens is another hundred acres of pristine Bigfoot territory is converted into cheap condominiums that are going to be overtaken by very loud neighbors and you're going to be forced to live right next to them.
- [33:19]
Ben
Versus. Okay, Versus. Every time a bar of seed oil free indigo sundry soap is purchased and used, a demon loses its wings.
- [33:28]
Brian
It loses its wings.
- [33:29]
Ben
That is a scientific fact.
- [33:31]
Brian
Yeah, scientific. We scientifically made it up just now.
- [33:34]
Ben
Yeah, exactly. Empiricism. Hey, now let's try to give a direction for the show. Yeah, we're talking about remote viewing. We want to talk about all these aspects of remote viewing, but I think first we should define what it actually is. We should just make very clear when we're telling someone a story about this weird esoteric thing of their mind or their spirit, whatever, going somewhere else, what actually are the mechanics of what we're discussing?
- [34:01]
Brian
Yeah, so the first thing they do is, and you heard a description in story form of what it looks like typically. And there's variations which we'll see later in the episode, some variations on the theme, maybe a little automatic writing, other demon stuff. But the main thing is that they take somebody, typically somebody who has alleged parapsych psychological or psychic ability. Allegedly. We'll talk about it.
- [34:25]
Ben
We'll talk about it. Brian says allegedly. I'm like, yeah.
- [34:29]
Brian
They sit them down in a room, you know, often a place with few distractions and they will give them a target. So the targeting is really important. The idea is most of the time, at least at first, they have no idea of what the target is. It'll be coordinates.
- [34:47]
Ben
That's a really important point. It's something. We try to bring it up in the stories a lot, but maybe it can get a little lost in the storytelling. They're just giving GPS coordinates. They're just feeding them coordinates. I don't know about you, but if someone tells me a Latin long, I'm not going to be like, oh, I know that's in Cahoopsa, Missouri.
- [35:05]
Brian
Exactly where it is.
- [35:06]
Ben
Yeah.
- [35:06]
Brian
No, so you know where it's not? It's not at Fort Brack, Georgia.
- [35:09]
Ben
It's not Fort Brac, Georgia. That's dang right.
- [35:12]
Brian
Because it doesn't exist.
- [35:14]
Ben
So even that's the crazy thing. What if Dan. But what if even that's the even that's already crazy. Their mind is just kind of cooking on these coordinates and it just suddenly then knows where to go.
- [35:24]
Brian
Yeah, they like fly over there and you might think, well, hey, if, if a trained person was given Latin long, they could know like generally where they are. But it's to the point of specificity. We'll see where it's beyond what somebody could reasonably have just memorized and know ahead.
- [35:38]
Ben
Yeah.
- [35:39]
Brian
So they give them a target. The person is focused on the target, and then they. They enter typically some sort of meditative state. Or they go deep in their own mind and they basically send. Their mind.
- [35:49]
Ben
Yes.
- [35:50]
Brian
Or depending on who you're asking, their immaterial self.
- [35:54]
Ben
Yeah, their spirit.
- [35:55]
Brian
Their spirit over to find those coordinates. So it's not just that they're like telling you sort of whispered things about the coordinates that they just pop into their mind. They're actually going. There is the idea. They're allegedly giving you firsthand knowledge of the scene of whatever it is at.
- [36:14]
Ben
The place that they're seeing in real time. And that's the other thing. They are in this meditative or some of them would go into like a trance state, like a full on trance. But they can still hear the questions that are being posed to them by the interviewer or like a handler that's near them in the room. And they can also still talk. So there's still some kind of connection there. There's still some kind of psychic connection. Brian, what do you think about the mind versus the spirit? Like the self? What do you think is happening?
- [36:48]
Brian
Yeah, I mean, wow, there are layers to this.
- [36:52]
Ben
I have my opinions.
- [36:52]
Brian
Yeah, there are layers to this. I think starting at the most basic. We know that the world is not just stuff.
- [37:00]
Ben
Dude, I could not have said it better myself.
- [37:02]
Brian
See our published works.
- [37:03]
Ben
Yeah.
- [37:03]
Brian
Oh, our published works aren't spinning in a minute. All day.
- [37:06]
Ben
See our other published works.
- [37:08]
Brian
See our published works in one second with the magic of editing.
- [37:11]
Ben
2, 1.
- [37:14]
Brian
See, there it is. See how well this works? So we know that the world is not just stuff. We know that we are not just stuff. Meaning that we're not just physical atoms that were baked in a supernova. And Lawrence Krausian, sort of. It's just a roiling sea of moving.
- [37:32]
Ben
Particles, like a Carl Sagan. You're not just stardust.
- [37:34]
Brian
Hey, think about it. This is so crazy. The atoms from your left hand might have come from a different star than the atoms for your right hand.
- [37:42]
Ben
And we're supposed to think. That's a profound point.
- [37:44]
Brian
What can man do with wonders?
- [37:45]
Ben
Meaning?
- [37:46]
Brian
No, that would be a world of nihilism and meaninglessness. So we're not just stuff, we're embodied souls. There's an immaterial self and a material self. We have a soul, body, mind, spirit. There's debate about what the division would be. Trichotomy, dichotomy, that sort of thing. Is that what you're getting at?
- [38:04]
Ben
Yeah. So I'm more of a dicot.
- [38:07]
Brian
You're more of a dicot.
- [38:07]
Ben
I'm more of a dicot kind of guy. I see body and then spirit, soul, and they're one. And so your mind, like the subterranean psyche of your mind, is just an extension of the heart, which is the house of the soul. So anytime you're having a remote viewing experience, as one does.
- [38:32]
Brian
Hey, let's be clear. Do not do it.
- [38:34]
Ben
Don't do it. Don't do it. But let's say you're Paul, okay? And you are being taken up into the third heaven. This is something that will.
- [38:41]
Brian
And he said, I don't know.
- [38:42]
Ben
Yeah, out of body. In my body. Oh, God knows.
- [38:46]
Brian
Which is like, 1st Corinthians 12, 2nd.
- [38:48]
Ben
Corinthians 12, 1 13. My grace sufficient for you? I was. By a whole letter. Yeah. That's bad. That's really bad. Almost as bad as being 1 Corinthians 12.
- [38:57]
Brian
I know.
- [38:58]
Ben
First Corinthians. You honestly think it would be in First Corinthians 12.
- [39:02]
Brian
Almost like.
- [39:03]
Ben
Like Fort Bragg, dude, Georgia. More like Fort Humble Pie. You know what I'm saying? Okay, so the Paul thing, we'll touch on that later. But to me, that's clearly a vision of the mind, at the very least. But it's a vision of the mind that was definitely himself, where he's like, that was me seeing that it wasn't just like this implantation or a dream or something like that. So I'm a Dicot kind of dude.
- [39:32]
Brian
I tend to think this is just an illustration. I think you can take it maybe too far, but I tend to think of the union of body and soul, or of the immaterial and material self as being something like the relationship of a musician to his instrument, that the Body is kind of like an instrument that is played by the immaterial self. I think there's more to it than that. But this is helpful because it accounts for things like. So when somebody gets brain damage and their personality changes, what's happening? Well, doesn't that discount the idea of an immaterial self because your self seems to be shaped just by your physical body? I would say, whoa, whoa, whoa. That would be like discounting the presence of a musician playing a guitar. Because the music changes when you break one of the strings or put a hole in the body or somehow, you know, in another way damage the instrument. So I think about it in that way. I also tend to be more of a dichotomist to think that when the scriptures speak of soul and spirit, even to the division of soul and spirit, it's speaking by way of analogy or by way of illustration.
- [40:34]
Ben
Yeah. Analogous and hyperbolic language in that sense. Where if something is able to separate soul and spirit, that's akin to Christ saying that you shouldn't fear man who can only kill the body, but you should fear God who can actually kill body and soul in hell. And we think of the soul as something immortal. And it is. And so the fact that there is a being is powerful enough to destroy that immortal thing is a testament to God's power.
- [40:59]
Brian
So some questions we need to answer. At least give some thoughts. One of them would be there's sort of a fork in the road when we're talking about remote viewing, about what is actually happening. I'm assuming right now that it does happen.
- [41:13]
Ben
Yeah.
- [41:13]
Brian
So I am persuaded that there is enough evidence that people have done this, that it's real, that it's a real thing, that people have actually done similar. And you might say that's crazy, Brian. Like you're just, you're not being credulous. You're being too credulous. Like you're just believing anybody. Well, no, lots of people lie about it. People make up crazy copy paste creepypasta stories all the time. But even somewhere like Acts 16 in Scripture, we see the girl that has the unclean spirit who's. She's fortune telling, she's doing this. She's getting information about things she should have no possible way of getting information about and able to turn a profit on it. We see occultic practices and ancient religious practices like astral projection. Basically the same idea of sending your immaterial self somewhere out in the cosmos or in the world and even through time.
- [42:08]
Ben
Yeah.
- [42:09]
Brian
So assuming that it is happening for a second Go ahead.
- [42:13]
Ben
Also just Bell witch.
- [42:14]
Brian
The bell witch, yeah, same thing.
- [42:15]
Ben
Sorry. I just thought of an example. It's true. I wanted to share it.
- [42:18]
Brian
Assuming that it is happening, I think there's a fork in the road about what is happening when it's happening. One line of reasoning, and this is more of the modern, I think the Project Stargate type of people would think about it this way as a first order what's going on sort of answer that human beings have latent abilities, like psychical abilities, and some of them have more than others. In the same way that some people have better eyesight than others. Probably everybody, these people would say have some sort of psychic ability. That's why you have like deja vu or that's why you have these strange little experiences of like knowing something is going to happen or even really ahead.
- [43:02]
Ben
Of time, really vivid dreams. This is actually something Carl Jung talks about in his psychoanalysis of different dreams, where people do have this connection to a collective unconscious that is a sort of psycho or a psychic bank of.
- [43:18]
Brian
Memory like the bandis mundi.
- [43:20]
Ben
Yes. And so if you have a certain dream that really sticks with you, it probably means it's because you're fearing some major archetypes of the universe that your ancestor was fearing. Like it's very, very weird. And it's not the same thing as remote viewing. He's not saying that.
- [43:35]
Brian
No, it's not.
- [43:36]
Ben
But he's touching on a similar vein.
- [43:37]
Brian
It's at least the idea that people have this ability. Like the hair on the back of your neck sticks up and you feel like you're being watched. Lots of people posit the idea that human beings have some sort of latent psychic ability.
- [43:51]
Ben
And it's a decent idea because if you think about the senses of the body, the physical senses, it does kind of stand to reason that if a whole part of the human is also this immaterial thing, then what if the soul have senses as well? Like there's some kind of sensory relationship between the soul and the world in the same way that there's a sensory relationship between the body and the world.
- [44:16]
Brian
Yeah. So there's. You could. You could go lots of different directions. That's one basic fork in the road. The other fork in the road is that this is accomplished by teaming up with another spiritual being that is giving you information that is able to go to a different. That really is immaterial and able to, you know, basically demons or some others even non Christian idea. Like there are non Christian occultic and esoteric ideas that Also believe this. They don't necessarily think they're demons or give a Christian answer for what they are. But even in the UFO phenomenon, you can see like the Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind documentary. Is that Steve Greer? Yeah, the guy. So they basically do transcendental meditation to make mind contact with ultra terrestrial, spiritual or some kind of multi dimensional. Ultra dimensional beings they call them lots of different stuff to try to contact them across space.
- [45:18]
Ben
He's even doing the coordinate thing where he's like forming a star map in his head and saying, I want you to show up there in the star map. And then he looks up in the sky where he, you know, the corresponding spot in the sky. And he sees the light, he sees the being.
- [45:32]
Brian
They'll even think of like the Milky Way galaxy in relation to other galaxies. And then here's where our solar system is in the Milky Way galaxy. And then here's where the Earth is in relation to the sun. And then here's where I am on the Earth. And so they're mentally zooming from out in to guide spiritual beings into their presence. And they'll explain it with things like, well, these are highly evolved beings. They're still not necessarily like demons or anything. They're just at a certain point in evolution you transcend the need for a body even and you become pure mind.
- [46:09]
Ben
Yeah.
- [46:10]
Brian
And you can maybe manifest yourself in different way. They ascribe what end up being quasi divine characteristics to these beings and essentially reinventing a temu version of demons.
- [46:23]
Ben
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wish.com demons and saying that man can get there if he evolves.
- [46:27]
Brian
It's all the same idea.
- [46:28]
Ben
Yeah. Leaving the psychic braille or trail of breadcrumbs, braille of treadcrumbs to get back to earth. Yeah. There was something that I was gonna say about that and now I can't remember what it was.
- [46:39]
Brian
I will say that I don't think these two forks are mutually exclusive. I think that there are blends of them that work where you're saying that basically a person in his spirit has the ability to commune or communicate with spiritual beings. That is a non physical activity. It's not merely brainwaves and electrical impulses in your neurons. It's not merely your physical body interacting with spiritual beings. It's saying that the soul and spirit has the capacity to commune with spirit directly. And if you call that psychic or parapsychological, you know, you're just giving a word for something that theologians have talked about for a long time, which is the idea that we can Commune with spirit. We were actually made to do this just with the right one.
- [47:26]
Ben
I remember what I was gonna say. And this kind of. Maybe this shows the hand of my conclusion a little bit early, but I don't want to forget. So going back to the whole physical body, senses versus spiritual sense type thing, I think that that analogy can be helpful in the same way that a child has to grow up in the world, the visible world, and be taught how to use the senses that he has. Like, he has to be taught, when you see this, you're seeing rightly, you can have an optical illusion and you're seeing wrongly. When you taste this, it's bad. When you taste this, it's good. Et cetera, et cetera, et ceter. In the same way, man actually does have a spirit, and therefore he really does have, if you want to call it this, psychic powers in the sense that he can commune, like what Brian said, with spirit. That's just very, very plainly true. But man is especially poorly practiced at that. Like, we're especially bad at that because the body and things that we can see are such overwhelming data points that it really is hard for us to have any clue whatsoever of how to properly use and sense things spiritually. That's why, partly, I think, why the Lord was gracious to give us his word. And so he tells us very clearly, like a father would tell a son, how to see and taste and smell things properly, how we ought to see and taste and smell properly with our spirit. And that is that we're not to be confusing ourselves with God or with these kind of entities. And we're also not to be using those entities in order to achieve things contrary to the will of God. And so our spirit has the ability to commune with spirit. Yes, but it is also for communing with spirit.
- [49:12]
Brian
It's for communing with God.
- [49:14]
Ben
Yes. The thing that it is for is communing with the true Spirit, the true God and Father of all, not for commercializing with spirits to bring about things that we want in the visible world.
- [49:27]
Brian
Even. I mean, Paul speaks in a way that is very similar to how you're speaking in 1 Corinthians 5. I just preached on this literally yesterday. And he says these strange things in First Corinthians 5, 1:8 that strike our ear as weird. He's actually talking about church discipline for sexual immorality in the passage. And he's saying, like, I'm not in Corinth, but there's this case of sexual immorality in the church that they're not properly judging in church discipline. And he says this strange thing like my spirit, when my spirit is present with you and the Lord Jesus, you need to pronounce judgment on this man who's in the sin. And he speaks as if Paul, not just the Holy Spirit, but as if Paul's spirit is able to be present with them in the congregation. Now, Paul's not talking about something where he intends, on the Lord's Day, some upcoming Sunday, to schedule this with them, where he's going to lay down on a couch and astral project his spirit to Corinth. What he's saying, though, is more fundamental than that. He's saying our spirits altogether were made to commune with God. And in doing that, we are the body of Christ. We're all one. We have this objective unity as we commune with Christ. And so in a sense, wherever the body of Christ is, we all are there. We can properly say that we are with them in spirit. Yeah, and it's not an astral projection thing, but it is a real communion. It's not just an analogy either. There's a real sense in which all of us are one, which is why Paul can speak elsewhere of our lives. Being hidden with Christ in God at the right hand of the Father. The truest me really is hidden with Christ at the right hand of the Father. Which is one of the reasons why I don't need to fear what happens to. To me here. Because they can't. Don't fear the one who can destroy the body. Your truest self is in union with Christ. You're a partaker of the divine nature, not becoming a capital G, God, but partaking of the nature, communing with God in fellowship with God, being what you were made for, you're doing what you were made to do. And so what sin tells us to do is it sunders us first spiritually from God, but then it seeks to attach us. We don't cease from seeking communion with spirit. It convinces us and persuades us to seek union with evil spirit.
- [51:48]
Ben
And that's what we do via a pseudo death. Yeah, and this is one of the big points. And I think from here we can go into our second story. But it's convincing you to do this. And it's your own sinful desires via a pseudo death where you are intentionally trying to sunder your body from your soul in order to get to some higher place that you think the soul is meant for, but that the body has to be left behind for. Okay, that's just A kind of death. The death is the sundering, the official sundering of the body and the soul until the day of judgment. And so if you're trying to do that yourself and separate your body from your soul as two intelligences, kind of you're actually just longing for death. And the proverbs say that you're being a fool. Those who hate wisdom love death.
- [52:34]
Brian
And it's so like this is so real. This is not made up, woo woo, spooky dookie kind of whatever. It's so real that the government spent two decades investigating this and has documentation that they claim it bore real results. Yeah, I mean that, that example from the cold open of the discovery of the typhoon class of submarines. Dude, I mean it's insane. Insane that people have. Then there are other ones. Allegedly. I think it was even the same guy, McMonagall who. And I by the way, I just want to call him Professor McGonagall so bad.
- [53:05]
Ben
And he like Wingardium Leviosa, the submarine, his soul over.
- [53:09]
Brian
He was like accio my soul back please. I'm sorry.
- [53:16]
Ben
So accio Stargate.
- [53:18]
Brian
He I think was it the hostage crisis? There was some kind of crisis where he accurately described the base where they were holding the hostages, US hostages.
- [53:31]
Ben
It was like an embassy from remote viewing. It was a foreign embassy in tehran that the U.S. didn't know the layout of. And they took American POWs to that embassy. And yeah, McGonagall, Professor McGonagall was like here's the exact layout. U.S. commandos go in and it is the exact layout. And they were like thanks Professor McGonagall. Also RIP.
- [53:53]
Brian
Let's go to the next story.
- [54:04]
Ben
In 1993, a baby was born to a young couple living in Telluride, Colorado. His name was Ingo Swann. For the first years of his life, Ingo seemed to be nothing more than an ordinary baby. Then toddler. But all of this began to change when his third birthday rolled past. In a semi emergency surgery to remove the three year old's tonsils, Ingo experienced his first period of self awareness. He had his first memory that would stick with him for the rest of his life and in large part would go on to define his life. The toddler was suddenly outside of himself, but was yet still himself. He drifted as if in spirit above the operating table upon which his body lay, watching the doctor remove his tonsils. He was still three in his out of body self and couldn't come up with the terms to describe what he felt or what he saw. He babbled to his parents after the fact about how, quote, I could see the doctor, I could see myself, I was flying, and other simple things like this. His parents thought little of his revelation, and who can really blame them? But for Ingo, this out of body experience at such a young age had a profound impact. But he never could shake that memory. And for the remainder of his childhood and into his adult life life, many other similar memories were added to his storehouse of strange recollections. Out of body experiences in his teens and 20s and early 30s turned Ingo into a student of the esoteric psyche, A sort of journeyman in the world of man's apparently innate power of the soul. When he was 37, he entered himself into his first official parapsychological study. That first study opened the floodgates for Ingo's new life purpose. To master the craft of psychic power before sharing that craft with the world. It was a winding road full of controversy and mind bending stories that forced the onlooker to reckon with existential questions he has likely never thought to ask. Ingo's legacy is a library of books and reports written both by him and about him. And all of them are fascinating to behold. But only one of his many tales concern us today. One that displays the transcendence of his alleged abilities better than most. If you wish to study Ingo's work further, be warned, it is a minefield. Tread carefully and with your eyes open and fixed upon the cross of Jesus Christ. The year was 1973. Ingo Swann was already an asset for the CIA's Stargate program. In fact, he was arguably the project's chief asset at the time. He had earned himself a reputation that was equal parts supernormal and surprisingly credible to the people who actually worked with him. He had used his gift of remote viewing to spy on foreign intelligence communities to find weapons caches, and even to provide the layout for a POW camp that American forces infiltrated to mount a successful rescue. In all of it, he was proven right. It was astonishing. But In April of 1973, he set his sights on something greater, something more cosmic. He turned his eyes from the things of earth upward to the heavens and began to wonder if he might not explore the regions of the universe beyond the moon. Ingo wanted to know what it was like beneath the stormy clouds of the king planet Jupiter. His CIA handlers, knowing his endeavor would be useless to them and knowing the data would be too far fetched to ever publish, were hesitant to give Ingo the time. But he was persuasive and on the evening of April 27, they found themselves in a room with notepads in hand, watching as Ingo descended into his trance. It took him 30 minutes of utter silence. Even a cracking knuckle made him twitch and lose a bit of ground in his focused effort to fly through the vastness of the cosmos. Finally, though, he began to speak. There's a planet with stripes. I hope it's Jupiter. I think it must have a large hydrogen mantle. So I'm approaching it on the tangent where I can see it is a half moon. In other words, it's half lit, half dark. If I move around to the lit side, it is distinctly yellow. Very high in the atmosphere there are crystals. They glitter. Maybe the stripes are like bands of crystals, maybe like rings of Saturn, though not as far out like that. Very close to the atmosphere. Now I will go down through it feels really good there inside. Those cloud layers, those crystal layers, they look beautiful from the outside. From the inside they look like rolling gas clouds, eerie yellow light, rainbows. The atmosphere is very thick. I'm near the surface. I get the impression, though I don't see that it's liquid. It looks like sand dunes. They're made of crystals and they slide. Tremendous winds very close to the surface. The horizon looks orange and rose colored, but overhead it is kind of greenish yellow. To the right there is an enormous mountain range. I feel there is liquid somewhere. The mountains have a polished surface like obsidian or amber. They're yellowish and seem light. The wind blows them and they slide around. Thus the session continued for some time more. And then it was over. Ingo came out of his trance and re entered his body. He was back Earthside and the smile on his face betrayed his certainty that he had succeeded. He had visited Jupiter and come back to tell about it. The handlers, however, were not as sure. Ingo had not mentioned any of Jupiter's moons. There are 95 of them known to us now. And they nearly laughed at the notion that Jupiter had crystalline rings within the atmosphere or without. They also thought his description of the surface of the planet would be far out from reality. But six years later, when the Voyager probe flew by the planet collecting data, they were proven wrong and Ingo was proven right. Not far off of the outer limit of Jupiter's atmosphere, a faint but unmistakable glowing ring like a halo was discovered. Jupiter was the king and the glittering halo was as crowned. What's more, later probes confirmed the crystalline atmosphere that Ingo mentioned as well. Previously unseen bands of ammonia ice crystals were found in the northwest corner of Jupiter's Great Red Spot by NASA Galileo craft. Further data collection went on to confirm that the surface of Jupiter, for though it is a gas giant, it still has a surface, was made up of something called metallic hydrogen, a hyper condensed form of solid hydrogen that nonetheless undulates in swarms like a dense liquid. As the years provided these findings, the Stargate handlers grew more and more amazed at how Ingo was able to predict predict all of these things before they could have ever been known empirically. But they checked themselves. Perhaps it wasn't a prediction at all. Perhaps he had just actually seen it all firsthand. Ingo would go on to make similarly audacious claims about the planet Mercury before the Mariner 10 flyby of 1974. His findings contradicted all of the greatest astronomical models NASA could offer. Yet he was again correct at every point. He spoke of its thin atmosphere, its magnetic field, and its helium tail spewing away from the sun along the magnetic field lines. The scientists scoffed at him until later. Empiric verification served them up a large platter of crow, forcing them to admit what seemed impossible. Ingo Swann had been right about all of it again.
- [61:57]
Brian
Hey Ben, I just read that our great grandparents probably experimented with butter on their dry skin as a moisturizer. Is that why you look so radiant?
- [62:06]
Ben
Maybe it's Grandma's Butter Recipe. Or maybe it's Gray Toe Tallow.
- [62:11]
Brian
Their tallow products are 100 organic and naturally contain the good stuff your skin craves. No mystery there.
- [62:18]
Ben
So say Sayonara Sammy to kitchen experiments and say hello to healthier skin. Gray Toad Tallow Trusted by Skin, Envied by Great Grandma's Butter Recipe.
- [62:31]
Brian
For more information and to get a sample pack, check out gray toad tallow.com don't forget to use the code COSMOS15. That's all caps COSMOS15 for 15% off your order.
- [62:50]
Ben
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- [63:45]
Brian
I actually woke up this morning and thought to myself, I want to know what Ben's drinking more of lately.
- [63:49]
Ben
Coffee. Can you believe that?
- [63:50]
Brian
Unbelievable. I thought you were into tea.
- [63:52]
Ben
No, no, I'm into coffee now. And you know who makes the best coffee in the world? Who? Is it Squirrely Joe's Coffee. Oh, are that.
- [63:58]
Brian
Is that that thoroughly Christian business that doesn't hate you in everything you believe in?
- [64:02]
Ben
Yes, yes. Not only that, but they also love their neighbor by donating many of their proceeds to a worthy cause called Operation Underground Railroad Man.
- [64:10]
Brian
Everybody should check out Squirrelly Joe's Coffee at squirrellyjoes coffee dot com.
- [64:14]
Ben
That's right. Squirrelly Joe's Coffee. Share coffee. Serve humbly. Live faithfully. How many demons, ghosts or vampires are lurking in your investment portfolio? If you're invested in the s and P500, it's probably more than you think. Since it's full of companies that actively oppose your faith. Stonecrop Wealth Advisors is here to help. Their faith based portfolios redirect your hard earned dollars away from destructive agendas and into companies making a positive impact on society. Get the demons out of your portfolio and invest in God's kingdom while you grow your wealth. Contact Stonecrop Wealth Advisors today by visiting StoneCropAdvisors.com Haunted Cosmos investment advisory services offered through StoneCrop Wealth Advisors LLC, a registered investment advisor with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission.
- [65:04]
Brian
Okay, I think we can both agree that the name Ingo Swan is the.
- [65:08]
Ben
Name of a completely legitimate person. Do you think Ingo is a fraud?
- [65:14]
Brian
Okay, here, here, let me give. So that. So that people don't.
- [65:17]
Ben
Because I won't stand for it.
- [65:18]
Brian
Have fallen out. No, I'm. I do think that this. So the skeptical case against like Project Stargate against a lot of these. Cold open. Cold open.
- [65:28]
Ben
Dude, we are. We are killing daylight savings time was yesterday and we're. You can sense the struggle.
- [65:36]
Brian
It's so true.
- [65:37]
Ben
We.
- [65:38]
Brian
There was a government psyop that stole an hour of sleep from us. That is true. And it was the demons and it.
- [65:44]
Ben
Was a remote viewer who said that it had to happen.
- [65:46]
Brian
Yeah, definitely. 100% no. So here's the skeptical case. Whenever you start talking about parapsychological phenomena or psychics or mediums now, on the one hand, we know that these things are legitimate phenomena. Remember that, like biblically speaking. And we'll get into this more. We know these things actually do happen.
- [66:03]
Ben
Yeah.
- [66:04]
Brian
However, that doesn't mean that sometimes people don't pretend that they're doing it when they're not actually doing it. So there are techniques like mentalism and cold reading that people will use to read the person across from them and pretend to be accessing information about them. Some of them fraudulently research ahead of time or have help. Some of them they will use like leaked. You know, people have criticized the Stargate protocols and said it allowed too much, there was too much slop where the person could have used cold reading. And Ingo. Ingo is a funny guy because he also, like, he makes all this. There's a couple things that stand out as, like, what people point to as it's legit.
- [66:47]
Ben
Yeah.
- [66:47]
Brian
So maybe either he is like, partly like he did it sometimes, but also like the thing about someone who communes with demons is that I wouldn't expect them to be super truthful all the time.
- [66:58]
Ben
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:59]
Brian
And not self aggrandizing.
- [67:00]
Ben
One might actually think that they could have the capacity to lie.
- [67:04]
Brian
Ingo would do stuff like he wrote books. He would talk about how he got into psychic battles with aliens on the moon.
- [67:11]
Ben
Dude, this man wrote so many books. If you just go to Amazon, type in Ingo Swann, okay.
- [67:19]
Brian
And then don't buy anything.
- [67:20]
Ben
Filter by author name. Definitely don't buy any of them. But there's like dozens of books. He wrote one on Marian apparitions. Now, I'm not gonna lie, I was.
- [67:28]
Brian
Tempted to buy it and Ben bought it.
- [67:31]
Ben
He.
- [67:31]
Brian
But he would say all kinds of outlandish stuff. And he claimed that he saw aliens on the moon. And then a shadowy government organization tried to stop him from getting the information out. But based on the number of books that he's published, it doesn't seem like there's a shadowy cabal of government organizations trying to stop him from getting this information out. Since he publishes three books a year.
- [67:52]
Ben
About the information, he seems to be more of a megaphone guy.
- [67:56]
Brian
He's a showman.
- [67:57]
Ben
Not as much of a drip guy. Now. Well, I will say there's also a case to be made even for the stories that we just told with Jupiter and Mercury and stuff that the language was. Especially with Jupiter. The language was so vague that you could almost fit it into anything. The things that really blew me away with Jupiter were the surface, the metallic hydrogen thing. And then With Mercury. I thought Mercury was pretty fascinating because he was disagreeing with all of the NASA predictions very confidently. Now one could just say he's a contrarian and he got lucky, which is legitimately. That's a theory.
- [68:42]
Brian
There were minority opinions about Jupiter. Some of the stuff he said. There were people who had postulated these things before. It certainly wasn't mainstream and it did contradict the current consensus and it wasn't so.
- [68:55]
Ben
Especially with the metallic hydrogen thing. So the Voyager 1 probe flies by, sees the rings around Jupiter.
- [69:01]
Brian
Classic probe.
- [69:02]
Ben
And everyone's like, shoot. Yeah, classic probe, dude. I heard a story about Voyager one that I have to tell.
- [69:08]
Brian
Let's do emergency story mode.
- [69:10]
Ben
Emergency story mode. Voyager 1, you better enhance this facade. This man, house dog and may talk. It's the comment on my size, not my physique. Okay? Voyager 1 was the probe that had the golden record in it that Carl.
- [69:27]
Brian
Sagan was like, we have to include this, otherwise the aliens won't know what we. Was it bo Intelligent? Like, what was it?
- [69:33]
Ben
I don't know. I can't remember. It was probably like rolling.
- [69:36]
Brian
Who let the dogs out?
- [69:39]
Ben
Can you imagine?
- [69:41]
Brian
The aliens were like. And then they were like. This actually kind of goes hard. They're like, where is this place?
- [69:46]
Ben
Dang, dude.
- [69:47]
Brian
Let's get a drink here.
- [69:47]
Ben
Okay, so anyway, the. The. I don't know how they know this. I'm just gonna say the story as I heard it. I don't know the mechanics at all, but the probe is going go and gone, dude. It leaves the solar system. Apparently somehow they know that it lost the record. Like the record got lost. Or maybe it was that the probe got lost. Like it stopped sending the signal right at the edge of the solar system. Ten years later, the Voyager probe starts signaling again from the same spot that it had gone missing the 10 years. And then this is where I. Dude. And then we get a message back from the. That said basically like, for your own sake, stay quiet.
- [70:36]
Brian
Okay, here's what I want. And Ingo's I want a question mark on my head. Like, did it happen? Made up?
- [70:43]
Ben
Yes. No, it was not made up. I'm kidding. It was probably made up.
- [70:48]
Brian
Okay.
- [70:49]
Ben
Anyway, I saw that on Instagram and I thought was really interesting. Dude.
- [70:51]
Brian
There was an Instagram reel once where a guy was like. He had like the green screen and the background was like the Voyager Pro. He was like. And then it disappeared and everyone was like, sharing it. This is crazy. Can you imagine tagging Hana Cosmos?
- [71:02]
Ben
The account was at Ingo Swan.
- [71:05]
Brian
Okay. Now back to the. We need to remember that, you know, there are frauds, people, fake stuff, whatever, lie for attention, blah, blah, blah, for their own reasons. We know this stuff does happen, though. We know that this is a capability or this. This has occurred in the Bible.
- [71:19]
Ben
We know that the human being has the capacity to do something like this, talk us through it, because it's happened numerous times. My favorite example currently is Ezekiel. Ezekiel is in exile with the Northern Kingdom of Israel. So they're somewhere in the outskirts of Babylon or they're on the way to Babylon. And in one of the prophetic visions that Ezekiel has, he gets taken. He actually gets. It's funny, he's in the spirit, but it says that he gets lifted up by the hair, which I'm like, okay, first of all, spirit hair, very strong. I don't know how big Ezekiel was. Maybe he was a small guy, but very strong spirit hair. And it's funny that he knows that he gets picked up by the hair. Like you're in the spirit, but somehow you have hair. Yeah. Anyway, the spirit is a very strange thing, very weird. And he gets taken to the temple in Jerusalem, and he sees what's happening in the temple, which is this sort of Egyptian kind of worship of Ra and Ptah and things like that, and ga and da da. Anyway, eating some za and he gets zhug zhuang. So Ezekiel, he remote views, more or less, but it's like God sanctioned.
- [72:35]
Brian
Like God is the one who is taking him.
- [72:38]
Ben
And. Yeah, it's clearly not a normative thing. No, but it did happen. Like, his spirit had the capacity to leave his body while his body still is alive in the wilderness of Babylon and be taken by his spirit hair to Jerusalem to see the worship that was going on there.
- [72:52]
Brian
You also have instances, like in 2 Kings, chapter 6, where Elisha is. It's his servant Gehazi, whom I always felt really bad for.
- [73:00]
Ben
Two kings, dude, two fast two kings.
- [73:04]
Brian
Wow. We was kings. And his servant Gehazi, you know, Elisha does this healing for a super rich guy. Super rich guy offers him a bunch of money. He's like, no, no, no, I don't want the money. Just, you know, basically repent, whatever.
- [73:16]
Ben
Yeah.
- [73:16]
Brian
So then the guy's leaving, and Gehazi, his assistant, his servant, is like, hang on, Elisha, I gotta go get my laundry.
- [73:23]
Ben
I gotta go use the bathroom.
- [73:24]
Brian
He runs out. He chases the guy. He's like, hey, Elisha changed his mind. How much can you give me? And the guy gives him. He's like, all right, whatever. Gives him a bunch of money and stuff. So Gehazi comes back and he's like, elisha will never know which. First of all, this is the dumbest plan of all time.
- [73:40]
Ben
Wasn't Elisha blind at the time? Why am I thinking that?
- [73:43]
Brian
Elisha just. Here's what we do know. Elisha is like the most powerful miracle working prophet in the history of the Old Testament Israel. I mean, arguably, Moses, Elijah, Elisha. There are three periods of miracles in the Bible that are intense.
- [73:57]
Ben
Yeah.
- [73:57]
Brian
Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and then Jesus and the apostles. Three periods. So in the middle of the second one, and he's like, I know what I'll do, I'll fool him. So Elisha says, basically, more or less. I think it's like verse 26, he says something like, I know what you did. Yeah, like my heart went out. I know what you did. And he doesn't say, like, I remote viewed it. But he.
- [74:22]
Ben
That would be weird if he said.
- [74:23]
Brian
That he has knowledge of something that happened far enough away from him that he shouldn't have had the knowledge of it. You know exactly what happened. So who did that? Well, God did it.
- [74:33]
Ben
What about, what about which apostle was the one that was sitting under the tree that Jesus was like, oh, it.
- [74:39]
Brian
Was, I saw you. Was it was, was, was it Nathaniel?
- [74:44]
Ben
Yeah, it was. It was Nathaniel.
- [74:46]
Brian
Yeah, yeah. He's sitting under the tree. And then, and then we still don't know exactly what Christ is like, yeah.
- [74:51]
Ben
I saw you sitting under that tree. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [74:53]
Brian
He just immediately follows Jesus because whatever. It was, like a lot of commentators think he was considering something specific or it was like related to what happened. And the implication is that Christ had demonstrated supernatural, miraculous knowledge. Yes, clearly something no one else could have known.
- [75:10]
Ben
He's not just the most easily duped person in the world.
- [75:16]
Brian
God has omniscience, which means an omnipresence. So he is present everywhere and he has all knowledge. So whenever a servant of God in union with God has this sort of thing, one of the ways that we might explain it is to say that God that through the union with the Spirit of God, he's given access to a specific piece of knowledge. And I think that's how I would primarily explain it. Mechanically. Mechanically, like in terms of process, actually.
- [75:45]
Ben
Even to Ingo's point about seeing beings fighting on the moon. Our buddy Ingo, our guy Ingo Swan.
- [75:51]
Brian
Could have been demons. Probably was. Aliens are demons, first of all.
- [75:55]
Ben
I mean. Well, think about Daniel. You know, Daniel remote views a Lot of things. One of the. I'm using that term. Okay. But Daniel, you know, he sees actually, like, the divine council taking place, and he sees Jesus be presented to the.
- [76:12]
Brian
Father, the Son of man, like the ancient of. Presented the ancient of days, like at the Ascension.
- [76:17]
Ben
Yeah. Dang. So he sees forward in time.
- [76:19]
Brian
In time also. Ooh, man.
- [76:21]
Ben
Which is. I never made that connection until just now. That's actually crazy, dude. That's actually. That's actually insane. That's crazy.
- [76:30]
Brian
Hey, we haven't done enough ethnic impersonations this season to lose 10% of our audience every time.
- [76:34]
Ben
All right, let's start here.
- [76:35]
Brian
Only the strong ones can remain.
- [76:38]
Ben
Hey, Martina McBride is a Mexican, and people have been asking to see his face.
- [76:43]
Brian
We don't face Dox him.
- [76:44]
Ben
No, I'm not going to face dox him. Here's what we do. My guy Martinez, let's put a picture.
- [76:47]
Brian
Of Martin's face floating. If you go to the center camera, float Martina McBride's face right here. Martin actually make it like Ricky Martin.
- [76:57]
Ben
No, make it Martina McBride, the lady, the actual Martinabright.
- [77:01]
Brian
Okay, perfect. There you go.
- [77:03]
Ben
So that's that. I think that we really sleuthed through that story with expert analysis.
- [77:09]
Brian
What we need to do now is go into the next story is gonna bring in a wrinkle that is going to further solidify, in my view and in your view and in our view, these overt spiritual, occultic connection between remote viewing and what's actually happening.
- [77:28]
Ben
Yeah. Don't remote view kids.
- [77:30]
Brian
Don't remote view the son, the father, the whole Trojan line. I should have wiped them out, then hurled myself on the pyre to crown it all. You, sun, whose fires scan all the works of the earth. And you, Juno, the witness, midwife to my agonies. Hecate, greeted by nightly shrieks at city crossroads. And you, you, avenging furies and gods of dying. Dido Virgil's Aeneid book 4. In the project Stargate offices, at a nondescript desk that saw a steady parade of passing psychics and handlers, there sat a short woman of darker complexion named Angela Delafiora. She was commonly seen dragging on cigarettes while busying herself with stacks of logic puzzles, but she would always put those down to chat and laugh with her colleagues as they passed by. Many say that Angela's laugh was one of the most contagious in those days. Her method of remote viewing was slightly different from most of the other cycles. Instead of laying back in the darkness and then narrating what she perceived, she sat up at a desk while in her trances and scribbled at a sheet of paper set before her. It was a kind of fusion of remote viewing and automatic writing, one that sometimes made her contemporaries very uncomfortable. But hang on, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here. Angela Della Fiora was born in western Pennsylvania, sometime in the 1940s or 50s. From an early age, her connection to the seemingly intangible was evident to everyone close to her. Premonitions and dreams, foreboding senses before major family or historic events, etc. All of it was experienced by a little girl, and so was communicated through the mouth of a little girl. It made her family know something was perhaps different about her, but it left them at a loss as to what exactly the difference was. As she grew into her teenage years, though, the automatic writing began. Automatic writing is the practice of allowing oneself to be controlled entirely by spiritual beings or familiar spirits in transferring messages from the unseen to the seen world. Often it will entail a person with alleged psychic abilities sitting at a table with a writing instrument in hand, closing their eyes or entering into a kind of trance trance and waiting for their hand to begin tracing images or words onto the paper, seemingly controlled by an unseen and hidden force. When they awake from that trance, automatic writers rarely remember writing anything at all. Allegedly, though with practice, they can see what the spirits wrote through them and discern its meaning with relative clarity. This is just the type of practice that Angela threw herself into. She longed for the communion of the entities she came to know her own familiars. She worked for years to hone her skills as a conduit for them, but she eventually hit a snag. You see, Angela was raised in a staunchly conservative Roman Catholic family. According to Angela, her familiars did not like this. They told her that they could not use her as they would wished. If her mind was so closed on what truth was and was not, she needed to be more open and less dogmatic. Thus it was that Angela willingly left the Church and apostatized from any semblance of Christianity she had held to before. After this step of trust in her familiars, they rewarded her with steadily increasing powers. As part of this power, Angela found that she had the special ability of combining automatic writing with remote viewing, where automatic writing generally saw the psychic as a purely passive conduit. For the unseen spirits, remote viewing was a more free method of psychic power, which saw the practitioner exercise more liberty. They chose where they went, where they looked, and how to interpret all that they saw. For Angela, the fusion between passive conduit and one who was actively able to inquire with her familiars about certain things was a potent one. She could bid them go and inspect something far away or even in different times, before coming back and reporting on it via her writing. This dark amalgamation of wicked craft made Angela a prominent member of the psychic team inside Project Stargate. But it did not come without its friction. For what happens if the familiars, for one, do not take a liking to another working with her? Angela sat in a leather cushioned chair next to her partner for the session, Gene Lessman. What their objective was then is of little importance to this story. For some sessions prior, Angela had begun to inform Jean of the exact moment when her familiar entities would arrive. She had three that she primarily interacted with. They named themselves Mr. Goodman, Dr. Einstein, and Maurice. But each time Angela brought Gene into the knowledge of their presence, the session would take a downturn and quickly run to failure. Gene was frustrated. Angela had come in with a new method that he was unfamiliar with, and it was now making him look bad. He felt like the entities brought some kind of psychic interference with them. For this particular session, therefore, Gene told Angela that he absolutely did not want her to use her familiars. He wanted it to be just them, just plain remote viewing. Angela, willing to accommodate the wishes of her colleagues, nonetheless replied with some trepidation. Gene, they won't like that. You want that. Well, I don't care about that, he responded. Reluctantly, Angela agreed and assured Jean that she would not welcome her familiars into this session. Even then, though she knew her say in the matter only went so far. The two psychics descended into the depths of their mental cosmos until the trance had fully relaxed them. They could hear the interviewer. They could hear one another. But they could only see that which the unseen world gave to them. As Gene settled into the search for the prompted location, he felt a kind of tug on his spirit. It's the best way to describe it. It was as though another layer of perception from even deeper within, like a consciousness, was pricked. He stopped his spiraling descent into the world of the soul, and, a bit taken aback, looked around. He saw the shades of three entities rushing towards him. Their faces were grotesque mockeries of what could be a man or a humanoid demon. They jeered at him, felt alone, exposed in the dark, with the only light in the universe on him, and the only other living things being these malicious spirits. Then they turned physical. Here Gene's memory is somewhat fuzzy. All he knows is that his spirit suffered a hard shove or punch More like being hit by a car than anything. And the next thing he saw was the ceiling of the room he and Angela had been working in. His chair was turned completely over, and he had been thrown, it seemed, some feet back from it. The psychic jolt of the familiars had actually moved his body, even in the waking world. Angela merely looked down at him, not the least bit stunned. A look of fear washed over her. Let me take us in.
- [85:24]
Ben
Okay.
- [85:28]
Brian
Okay, we got. We don't have time for this, Ben.
- [85:30]
Ben
Yeah, I know. I. Dude. Hey, let me add another layer to this before we actually unpack.
- [85:35]
Brian
Like another store?
- [85:36]
Ben
Yeah. Another kind of emergency story mode thing? Not really, dude. This episode's full of them. Yeah, everyone should like and comment on this episode and then go support us on Haunted Cosmos.
- [85:46]
Brian
Wow. Everyone should be like, wow, they're so thoughtful. They put so much work into these episodes. I just really want to support this project.
- [85:52]
Ben
There's nothing I'd rather do than smash that, like, button.
- [85:54]
Brian
Smash that.
- [85:55]
Ben
Subscribe. Smash that notification bell.
- [85:57]
Brian
Share with all my friends.
- [85:58]
Ben
Anyway, so this lady, Angela. Her name is now Ford. Angela Ford. But at the time. At the time, all this. Yeah, it was Della Fiora.
- [86:07]
Brian
Della Fiora.
- [86:08]
Ben
Yeah. So she was recently on the Shawn Ryan Show. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that show, but vaguely. It's hosted by Sean Ryan.
- [86:15]
Brian
Is he like one of those I'm an operator kind of guys? Yeah, he's a lot like us.
- [86:21]
Ben
He, like us, used to be Navy seal, and he, like us, you know, has killed dozens of people with his hands.
- [86:28]
Brian
Dozens.
- [86:29]
Ben
Yeah, dozens of enemies of the state. So, yeah, he's an operator, and he has people on. He talks to them. That's the whole premise of the show.
- [86:35]
Brian
Okay.
- [86:36]
Ben
He had Angela Ford on, and Sean Ryan, every once in a while, will dabble in some religious commentary, which is always cringe, but it is what it is. And one of the things that he asked her was, have you ever used your remote viewing just for purely personal interests and curiosities? And she's like, yeah, I think, but what do you mean? And he's like, well, if it was me, I would want to go and look at, like, the flood, you know, or watch Jonah, you know, observe riding.
- [87:04]
Brian
An elephant around on the ark for fun. Like, you got to do something.
- [87:06]
Ben
Yeah, well, Jonah wasn't on the ark, but few know this. Few know that.
- [87:11]
Brian
Did I say Joe?
- [87:12]
Ben
No, I said Joe.
- [87:13]
Brian
Okay.
- [87:15]
Ben
Anyway. And she was like, oh, oh, sure, yeah. Like, you know, I've looked at historical stuff, but it was Actually an interesting point, she said you have to be careful doing that because you could see something inaccurate. You know, you could interject your own premise into it and it could be wrong. And you have to make sure you're looking at other sources when you're done to see what actually is legit. Which I'm like, well, what's the point anyway? You just have to read a book. When it's all said and done, just read the book. Anyway, I don't think that's quite what she meant. Then he was like, okay, what about, have you looked into religion? And she was like, yeah. Now what's interesting is that before in the show she said that in order for her to really get her skills going, like we mentioned in the story, she had to drop her Catholic upbringing. She had to leave the Roman Catholic Church, totally reject Christ and everything that she'd grown up with. And so he asks her this, dude.
- [88:13]
Brian
That doesn't sound like something a demon would make her.
- [88:15]
Ben
Yeah, it doesn't sound like a demon.
- [88:16]
Brian
Would never be like, hey, Jesus is getting in the way of you, of you, of you doing all this demon stuff. I mean, remote viewing, like achieving your dreams, these entities.
- [88:25]
Ben
She talks to Maurice. Yeah, dude, Maurice.
- [88:29]
Brian
One of them's like, I'm Dr. Einstein. Another one's like, I'm Maurice. You're like one.
- [88:35]
Ben
Hey, hey, hey, I'm Maurice. Hey, let me tell you some stuff. Oh, what's your name, Maurice? Dr. Einstein.
- [88:44]
Brian
Okay, I'm sorry, keep going.
- [88:47]
Ben
So then Sean Ryan goes, have you ever looked at the crucifixion? And the whole show, this is an hour and a half in. She has been bubbly, she's been eager to answer questions. She goes stone faced and she starts shaking. Her hands start shaking and she's like digging at her mouth, which is really weird. Old people do that sometimes. It's really weird. It grosses me out. And she just kind of nods. She's like, yeah, I've looked at the crucifixion. And then she gets super uncomfortable and Sean asks, do you not want to talk about it? And she just goes, no, dude, it's messed up. I'm telling you. Those beady Latin American eyes that Angela Ford has were seeing some crazy stuff. And she was terrified of Christ, dude.
- [89:43]
Brian
Imagine she's trying to remove you. The crucifixion with her demon familiars. And then the Archangel Michael comes down and just looks at her and says, I see you.
- [89:51]
Ben
Yeah, and he's got, watch yourself. And he's got that spear that he used to kill that goat in his hand.
- [89:58]
Brian
That wasn't the real. Okay. Oh, yeah. Let's circle back. Okay.
- [90:02]
Ben
We.
- [90:02]
Brian
We. What we want to talk about in this segment is just the obvious religious elements of this.
- [90:07]
Ben
Yeah.
- [90:08]
Brian
Phenomena. So all the way back, how did McMonagle. How did McGonagall. Professor McGonagall.
- [90:15]
Ben
No, that was Savelli.
- [90:16]
Brian
That was Savelli. That's right.
- [90:17]
Ben
Because he was the man who.
- [90:18]
Brian
McGonagall would have never done that.
- [90:19]
Ben
McMonagle. McGonagall would have done it. McGonagall.
- [90:23]
Brian
McGonagall would never do the Avada Kedavran ago dude.
- [90:27]
Ben
McGonagall would. We'll find out. Okay. We'll find out what?
- [90:31]
Brian
Monogonical though. He's like embracing this false Lord God figure in heaven. He's like picturing the Christian scenes and clearly perverting them to get his demon to go kill this innocent goat. Who may also be the.
- [90:48]
Ben
Probably a demon, not an innocent goat. There's no innocent goat to.
- [90:52]
Brian
To go kill this goat. We get automatic writing with like, literally. It is literal.
- [90:57]
Ben
Witchcraft is the point.
- [90:58]
Brian
This is literally what witchcraft is. It's the same thing as the DMT episode. I know people laugh about this and literally made the Facebook group so that they could tag it that just says haunted. Cosmos investigated this and determined it was a demon.
- [91:10]
Ben
Yeah.
- [91:10]
Brian
But it lit. In our defense. Sometimes it is in our defense.
- [91:15]
Ben
This is reformed pub. Because this is witchcraft. If you don't think it's just literal witchcraft, you're actually just. You are stupid.
- [91:23]
Brian
When people are doing ayahuasca, dmt, all this stuff, magic mushrooms, they're gaining access to a spiritual plane. When they're, you know, and then doing demon stuff. Okay. When they do the remote viewing, they're gaining access to a spiritual plane through some kind of meditation and all this stuff. And then they're doing demon stuff. When you're, you know, witchcraft. When you're doing witchcraft, you're gaining access with bruise and all this stuff to a spiritual plane and getting the spirits to do stuff for you.
- [91:45]
Ben
When you're sacrificing a human being, it is literally all.
- [91:48]
Brian
All the same thing.
- [91:48]
Ben
Yeah, it's all the same thing.
- [91:49]
Brian
It's just rebrand. Someone did like generic Walmart brand version of witchcraft. Remote viewing. Someone did it. That's what it is.
- [91:55]
Ben
Dude. You could be listening to Jefferson Airplane and smoking a. A fat. A fat roll of shroom doobies. Yeah. I don't know if you smoke shrimp.
- [92:05]
Brian
You could be doing alcohol or you could be.
- [92:08]
Ben
Or you could be listening to Maurice and Dr. Einstein talk to you about the crucifixion and then hear the Archangel Michael tell you, like, I'm going to kill you.
- [92:16]
Brian
Like, repent.
- [92:17]
Ben
Right? I'm going to kill you. And it's going to be fun.
- [92:19]
Brian
Get out of here right now.
- [92:21]
Ben
It's the same thing.
- [92:21]
Brian
It's the same thing.
- [92:22]
Ben
By the way, I hope Angela Ford repents and believes in Christ.
- [92:24]
Brian
Absolutely. And one last thing on this Beyond Skinwalker Ranch, the series that spun off ironically with another CIA guy. Like, it's always the CIA.
- [92:34]
Ben
What's the guy's name? Michael.
- [92:37]
Brian
Michael. CIA guy.
- [92:38]
Ben
He's also an operator, though. And he's been on Shawn Ryan.
- [92:41]
Brian
He has been on Shawn Ryan. He's like, dude, here's what I would do. I'd get a credit card, US$20. I could go anywhere.
- [92:46]
Ben
Here's like, here's the craziest people in the world. Delta Force. Yeah, it's kind of a kiss up. Because he wasn't on Delta Force. He wasn't on Delta Force. He just constantly talks about how great they are.
- [92:55]
Brian
So in Beyond Skinwalker Ranch, they use remote viewers several times. Where they will. There's a strange location where there's been some sort of UFOE or weird phenomenon. They'll go, let's get some remote viewers. Not like 100 of them. Go remote view with the target location. No other information, but just set to the place. And the ones that they have talked about in the show, almost every single one of them will have some sort of overt spiritual element where there is an entity or there is some kind of intelligence or some kind of evil dread. And it's just like, guys, you're just doing witchcraft with extra steps.
- [93:33]
Ben
Yeah, yeah. So in one of the episodes, there was this house outside of Taos, New Mexico, that was supposedly possessed by a demon. Like the house was the habitation of a demon. This woman had crazy stories. If half of them are true, it's crazy. But they had remote viewers look into it, look into it, investigate. And they gave them the GPS coordinates and that was it. And then they had the remote viewers try to draw whatever they saw. That's crazy. Which is like arts and crafts time. Also.
- [94:04]
Brian
What if you're a remote viewer but you sucked at drawing? I mean, I can't explain this.
- [94:08]
Ben
Yeah, if I was a remote viewer, that that would be me.
- [94:11]
Brian
It'd be embarrassing.
- [94:12]
Ben
I've actually. Brian likes to draw doodles in his notebook sometimes, so they're very good. They're not good. No. They're not good, but all of them were. You know, they kind of showed a cabin or some semblance of the shack, of the house, whatever. And the landscape was surprisingly legit. Yeah. Now, if you happen to know that latitude is in New Mexico, then maybe you can guess that. But something that I think it was like 90% of the drawing showed was a black portal in the sky above the house with some kind of like ethereal serpentine entity swimming out of it. A doorway to hell looking towards the house. Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. Genuinely crazy.
- [94:50]
Brian
Obviously spiritual.
- [94:51]
Ben
Say what you will about those remote viewers. There were many of them. I'm sure most of them were charlatans and hacks.
- [94:56]
Brian
Yeah.
- [94:56]
Ben
I don't know. Maybe not most of them.
- [94:59]
Brian
You know, most of them, I can guarantee you what they didn't do. They did not wash daily with Indigo Sundries soap.
- [95:05]
Ben
It's so true. And so that means that Dr. Einstein could get to them.
- [95:11]
Brian
They didn't subscribe for 10% off of their recurring soap order for their family@indigosundries.com.
- [95:18]
Ben
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah.
- [95:20]
Brian
Definitely didn't do that.
- [95:21]
Ben
They hated their skin. I think we can just settle on that.
- [95:24]
Brian
Let's draw some conclusions here. Yep, here's mine.
- [95:28]
Ben
Let's hear it, dude.
- [95:29]
Brian
Here's mine. People aren't just stuff. We have the ability to commune with spirit because we were made for it. And beware that you commune with the right spirit, have discernment. This is the discerning of spirits, where you say, test the spirits. Test the spirits. I am made to commune with the living God and with his people. I am not made to commune with unclean spirits. But what people are doing in all of these different parallel witchy sort of things is they're communing with the wrong spirits for the wrong reasons. And what they think it's going to do is give them great power. But what it actually does, it ends up ruining their lives. It ends up bringing destruction and death to them and all of the knowledge that they receive. They would trade it all if they could be healed of what happens to them. I think we even see this. I think it's in the final story that we're gonna talk about some of the damage to the life of the remote viewer.
- [96:21]
Ben
But yeah, it reminds me a lot about how in the DMT episode one of the. Through themes from these people that. That frequently went on trips and met with the machine elves and. I can't believe that's a real sentence.
- [96:32]
Brian
It's a real thing.
- [96:32]
Ben
That I'm saying unironically is the machine elves would give them something, they would get some knowledge, some encouragement, whatever, but they always felt as though they were giving them more than they were getting, right?
- [96:43]
Brian
They were giving far more.
- [96:44]
Ben
And it reminds me of this verse in Proverbs. I think it's Proverbs 30:12 and it's the leech has two daughters, give and give. And so in the same way that a machine elf and a DMT trip or familiar spirit in witchcraft or Maurice, when you're remote viewing would give you something, you would also be giving them a piece of yourself. And so remember that you're not supposed to just commune. You're not made to commune with just any spirit. No, you are made to commune in perfect harmony, glorifying the Lord that made you not even with angels. Like we shouldn't be seeking to commune with angels. That's not our task. Scripture makes that very clear. We commune with angels in a corporate sense on Sunday morning when we worship the living God. That is when the angels are also present. But all of us aren't trying to just commune with one another to get what we want. We are communing with the living God that made us all so that he could be glorified and we could be served with his love. So do that, know what you're for and don't give in to any of the lesser temptations or the lesser knockoff offs of spiritual communication that will actually just endanger your soul and lead you to perdition. No.
- [97:56]
Brian
That's great. Perfect ending point. Keep a ready sword, guys. We're going to take you out of this episode with one more story. Another just mind blowing story from the remote viewing world. And I think you're going to see some of the ways that there's danger.
- [98:10]
Ben
Yeah. To close, we return to the man at the center of this episode's cold open, the man who found the Typhoon class submarine, Joe McMonagle. For Joe, remote viewing became an all encompassing mode of living. His division between the life lived in the ether and the real embodied life began to thin in the later years of his professional work. The negative consequences of this obsession were myriad. Divorce, loss of contact with his son, a second marriage that became just as tense as the first, and a depression stemming from a kind of loss of knowledge of himself. He was breaking and was at his breaking point. Outside of the calming and dark viewing rooms, Joe's life was a cacophony of misery on every side. Occupational hazards, one might suppose. For all of those sorrows, though, Joe's professional life was yielded astonishing results, chief among them being his supposed ability to not only move through space, but also through time. He figured since space and time are a connected continuum anyways, it only made sense. Thus he began to try his hand at the prediction of future events and the firsthand reading of past ones. Some of his handlers in Stargate attested to this ability in Joe, verifying his repeated claims of once predicting major news events months into the future. Of course, not all of his predictions came about. Joe himself rated his viewing confidence between 65 and 95%. But many of them did. And that was enough to shock the men behind the curtain. Eventually, Joe was ready to try and take his viewing to new heights of control. He began working with a man named Robert Monroe, a man with his own firsthand experience of extended consciousness, who ran the Monroe Institute, or tmi. TMI was founded as a non profit dedicated to exploring the limits of parapsychology and human consciousness in general. It existed to help people like Joe hone their esoteric skills, while it as an institution sought to learn the mechanics of those same skills on an empirical level. It was here that Joe's space and time viewing hit its stride to the detriment of his personality life, but the flourishing of his professional one. His training regiment was simple bod. Monroe and an interviewer would stand in another room while Joe relaxed in the viewing room. Nodes and wireds would track Joe's brain waves while the interviewer gave Joe prompts on things to find around the world. He found the St. Louis Arch, Pompeii and dozens of other great landmarks, all from Bob and or the interviewer merely prompting Joe with GPS coordinates. But there was a twist. The GPS coordinates were hidden from Joe, written down on a piece of paper sealed in a folder in the room with Bob and the interviewer. They never actually told Joe what they were. They just told him where the folder was and then let him read the coordinates as part of his viewing. They did this to test both Joe and another twist they had implemented to the sessions. Bob had developed a soundscape of various frequencies for Joe that in his words, made him feel as though his entire body was vibrating and hovering about 6 inches off the bed, end quote. That he laid on these sessions were some of Joe's most impressive and some of TMI's most groundbreaking. Joe could read coordinates that were in a sealed folder in another room with his mind and then go to those exact coordinates again. All in his mind. Mind. It was astonishing at the end of Joe's Time at tmi, Bob organized, unbeknownst to Joe, a kind of grand finale test for him. It started out similar to other tests. Bob and the interviewer would accompany Joe into the room and see to it that he got comfortable on the bed. They hooked up their probes and brain wave reading electrodes before telling Joe where the coordinates were written down. This time they were sealed in a folder that was folded up a bunch of times and stuffed into Bob's shirt pocket. Joe could hardly see the yellow tint through the white shirt pocket as Bob left with the interviewer. He knew it would be a greater challenge somehow, but not too great to be really that difficult for him. So Joe laid back and listened to the soothing soundscape. The world became bereft of all save himself. His spirit free to travel wherever and whenever it's so pleased. Out of that dark room, it had already been 10 minutes. The monitoring system showed Joe to be utterly relaxed, as if in sleep, but actually far from it. The interviewer told him over the speaker to find and read the prompt. Joe's mind exited the room and entered the adjacent one containing Bob. He peered through the shirt, through the folds in the envelope, and discerned the coordinates written on the page paper inside. They were unlike any coordinates Joe had been given before. He knew then that this session would actually stretch him further than the ones before it. Had his mind cooked on the prompt before firing off into a dizzying whirlwind of color and space and sound. He could not keep his bearings as he traveled what seemed like a great distance for the soul into a land that was foreign to him. Him. One he could not recognize for any clear markers. He informed the men that he had arrived. Thus began the following conversation between Joe and his interviewer. Interviewer. Okay, Joe, really focus your attention now. Focus on 4.89 degrees north, 9.55 degrees west. Joe, I want to say it looks like a. Well, it looks like a great view of some pyramid. It's very high. It's sitting on a large depression in the ground. It is dark yellow or olive colored. Move to the time indicated in the prompt and tell me what you see. Severe clouds. A dust storm. It seems like. I can't iron this out. This is weird. Report your raw perceptions. I'm seeing the after effect of some major geological event. Like a geological trunk trauma. Okay, go back in time to before the trauma. This is very different. If I switch between the two, it's like massive mounds of dirt suddenly appear that were not there before. There's a large Flat surface, smooth angles and walls, like megalithic stuff built out of stone. What activity do you see around the things? There are shadows of people, very tall shadows. It's only a shadow, though, like a memory of some people that were there once. I just keep seeing large people, very thin and very tall. They wore some kind of skin type garment. I almost can't see it. INTERVIEWER okay, now stay in this same time period, but move to a new location. Same time period. Go to 46.45 north.353.23 east. Joe I think I'm in a cavern. No, no, not a cavern. It's a canyon. The walls are very tall and very straight. There are massive carvings in the walls. Structures. Structures are carved into the walls. Do the structures have insides? Yes, I'm inside one now. The ceilings are high and the hallways are very wide and smooth. Interviewer okay, we're going to cycle through some locations faster. I want you to tell me the first thing that you perceive at each of these places. Joe okay. Interviewer 45.86 North. 354.1 East. Joe I see an obelisk at the end of a road. 35.26 north. 213.24 east. Joe I'm in a circular basin surrounded by jagged and high mountains. Everything is too big to see the detail of. Interviewer 34.6 North. 213.09 East. Something very large, flat and white. Where is the sun? As you look at this thing that reflects white. I'm to the sun's left, but the sun is weird. 80 degrees south, 64 east. Pyramids again. They have insides and outsides. They're very massive. They look like shelters for storms or something. I see they're for hibernation. I see savage storms and shadows. Sleeping through storms. The. The large people are sleeping through the storms. But. But they're dying. They're ancient. Their time has passed. They're looking for some way to survive or for some way to return. They want to find a new place to live. INTERVIEWER why is their environment failing? Joe I see a globe in a comet's tail. It's all very comet. I see deep space images around this point. The session ended. Joe knew he was somewhere different, somewhere far off. But he could not have guessed where he had been and the full implications of what he had seen. Had he been forced to give an estimate, he would have placed himself sometime in the very ancient history of Egypt. That would have been wrong. On that fateful day, Joe McMonagle was given coordinates for different locations in time on the planet Mars. His locations lined up precisely with geographic anomalies on Mars that were captured by the Viking 1 orbiter in 1976. Only he was supposed to be viewing them uncounted years in the past. A primordial history of the young solar system's red planet. The pyramids he saw were the exact location of the famous face and single pyramids on the Mars Martian surface. The Face pyramid is famous on Mars because it looks eerily similar to a giant face. The second location was a sharp and deep crater with a pyramid at one end. And on and on it went. Bob in the interviewer, showed Joe the Viking 1 satellite images. And Joe felt as though he was looking at the memory of something he had seen in the prime of its youth each time. And all of it was laced through and through with Joe's memory. Memory of the tall, slender beings, the Martian humanoids that seemed afraid and sad, eager to find some escape from their dying world. Joe began to wonder if he may not have been seeing reality as it was in the ages before the oldest ages of time. Joe McMonagle still lives today. He's still active in the fields of remote viewing and parapsychology. His life has been deeply, some might say severely affected by his constant, willful sundering of his own body and soul. His conviction is that mankind ascended up from the primordial sea creatures who were created in a lab by cosmic scientists who seeded the Earth before departing. How he came to these convictions, of course, cannot be certainly told. As for man's end and purpose, well, what end and purpose is there for a lab rat, Sam?