How to Break Free from the Trap of Constant Achievement | EP 94

Summary

Podcast Summary: Healing + Human Potential
Episode: How to Break Free from the Trap of Constant Achievement | EP 94
Release Date: June 24, 2025
Host: Alyssa Nobriga
Guest: Emilio Diaz Barroso

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Introduction

In Episode 94 of The Healing + Human Potential Podcast, host Alyssa Nobriga engages in a profound conversation with her husband, Emilio Diaz Barroso. This episode delves deep into the challenges of constant achievement, the journey towards spiritual awakening, and the integration of spirituality into daily life. Emilio shares his personal transformation from a high-achieving individual to someone embodying profound inner peace and presence.

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Emilio’s Background and the Trap of Constant Achievement

Emilio begins by recounting his upbringing in a highly achievement-oriented environment in Mexico, where his family's prominent media company set high expectations. This environment instilled in him a relentless drive to excel in every aspect of life—from academics to business endeavors.

• Key Insight: Emilio explains, “I wanted to be the best at everything. That was really challenging. It was tiring.” (00:00)

His pursuit of success was fueled by a deep-seated fear of abandonment, leading him to continuously seek validation through accomplishments.

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The Onset of Spiritual Awakening

Despite achieving numerous successes, Emilio felt an underlying sense of anxiety and discontentment. Spirituality entered his life as an attempt to find fulfillment beyond external achievements.

• Notable Quote: “A lot of people get into spirituality as a way to opt out of their human experience, and then you go deeper into it and you realize it's about fully opting in.” (00:40)

Emilio describes a pivotal experience of oneness in the forest, where he felt entirely connected to everything around him, yet recognized it as a transient experience.

• Personal Story: “I had a very powerful experience of oneness where I was out in the forest and I was one with everything. The trees were alive, I was the trees.” (00:00)

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Understanding Enlightenment and the Present Moment

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the true meaning of awakening and enlightenment. Emilio distinguishes between the common misconception of enlightenment as a perpetual state of oneness and his own understanding of it as a continuous living mystery.

• Notable Quote: “Awakening is the hollowing out of the structures that keep us looking somewhere else.” (11:19)

He emphasizes that enlightenment isn't about achieving a static state but about being fully present in each moment, embracing both the extraordinary and the mundane aspects of life.

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Surrender: Types and Misconceptions

Emilio explores different forms of surrender, clarifying misconceptions often perpetuated in spiritual circles. He differentiates between conditional surrender—where one surrenders only under certain conditions—and unconditional surrender, which involves letting go without seeking safety or specific outcomes.

• Notable Quote: “There is no ultimate safety. All of our strategies for control are trying to get something that does not exist.” (34:04)

He underscores that true surrender involves embracing uncertainty and relinquishing the need for control, allowing life to unfold naturally.

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Integrating Spirituality into Daily Life and Relationships

The conversation highlights how Emilio integrates his spiritual insights into various aspects of his life, including relationships, parenting, and business. He shares experiences of handling emotional triggers with openness and curiosity, transforming them into opportunities for deeper connection and understanding.

• Personal Story: Emilio recounts a poignant moment with his daughter, Mila, where he allowed himself to deeply feel and process heartache instead of suppressing it. This led to a profound shift from experiencing pain to embracing joy at its core.
  “The tears of sadness turned into tears of joy.” (23:12)

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The Role of Psychology and Spirituality

Emilio and Alyssa discuss the intersection of psychology and spirituality, advocating for a holistic approach that honors both the human psyche and spiritual awareness. Emilio introduces the concept of "spiritual psychology," which involves embracing humanity’s imperfections while recognizing the inherent divinity within.

• Notable Quote: “Spiritual psychology is reminding those little parts of our humanity of their already infinite and perfect nature.” (17:30)

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Practical Tools and Healing Processes

Emilio outlines his personal healing process, which involves embracing triggers and emotional contractions with curiosity rather than resistance. By welcoming these experiences, he transforms them into invitations for deeper connection and self-awareness.

• Notable Quote: “How curious can I get with what is here?” (19:00)

He emphasizes the importance of living with an open heart and mind, allowing emotions to surface and be processed without judgment or the need to fix them immediately.

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Conclusion: Embracing Presence and Letting Go

As the conversation draws to a close, Emilio shares a heartfelt poem that encapsulates his journey from formlessness to form and back. He offers a final truth to listeners:

• Final Thought: “Notice what's already awake and place your attention there.” (58:00)

Alyssa and Emilio encourage listeners to embrace their true selves, let go of the need for constant achievement, and live authentically in the present moment.

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Additional Resources

• Book by Emilio Diaz Barroso: Freedom is Closer Than You Think – Available on Amazon and at emiliosbook.com
• University of Santa Monica: Discover more about transformational education rooted in spiritual psychology at usm.edu

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Note: This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Alyssa Nobriga and Emilio Diaz Barroso, focusing on their exploration of breaking free from the constant pursuit of achievement through spiritual awakening and psychological integration.

Transcript

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I wanted to be the best at everything. That was really challenging. It was tiring. Sometimes it was fun when I would get to some level of accomplishment. But what I was running away from was that if I wasn't valuable to anyone, I could be abandoned. And that was really scary. I had a very powerful experience of oneness where I was out in the forest and I was one with everything. The trees were alive, I was the trees. It was all soul vibrant, and I was simultaneously aware that it was just an experience. As convinced as you are that everything you've done is incredibly valuable, you need to be willing to let all of it go. All your insights, revelations, memories, and experiences of what you're trying to get back to.

[Alyson Abriga]

A lot of people get into spirituality as a way to opt out of their human experience, and then you go deeper into it and you realize it's about fully opting in. What does it look like to live with deep inner peace while parenting, leading, and doing business in the world? In this episode, we're going to explore the intersection of spiritual awakening and daily life, from the search for validation to the surrender of seeking. We'll talk about spiritual bypassing the illusion of enlightenment and what it really means to heal from the inside out.

[Unknown]

Our guest today is somebody who quietly.

[Alyson Abriga]

Embodies these truths, my husband, Emilio Diaz Barroso.

[Unknown]

So we've had him on the podcast.

[Alyson Abriga]

A few times, but I've never really.

[Unknown]

Shared about the work that he does.

[Alyson Abriga]

In the world, so. Emilio's the president of the University of Santa Monica, where they lead transformational education rooted in spiritual psychology. He also runs two family offices, is.

[Unknown]

A partner at Bold Capital, and serves.

[Alyson Abriga]

On over a dozen boards shaping the future of wellness and technology. But I think that his most profound journey has been inward. And in this episode, yes, it's personal, but it's also universal. And we'll be offering a look at.

[Unknown]

What it's like to have a life.

[Alyson Abriga]

Guided by presence, deep depth, and surrender. Hi, baby.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Hi, baby. You like my sexy voice?

[Alyson Abriga]

So we've had four episodes together so far. This is the first one of this form. We've done two episodes behind the scenes of our relationship. One episode, you interviewing me, and now I'm interviewing you. And I wanted to have you on because. Because I don't know anybody else that lives with the amount of peace that you live with. It's almost like you're unscathed by life. You know, I'll just ask you a question, and you'll be like, yeah, we started that company. Or made or lost this Amount of money. And it doesn't touch you the way that most people get hung up on things. And you're somebody who doesn't really. You don't need to be seen in it. You just silently live it, and you don't talk about it unless you're asked. And I think it's of service in the world. And I'm somebody that sees it behind the scenes as your wife. And I think that's a lot to say. But I also know that this hasn't always been the way for you. I know that you are very much searching, the search for more recognition, validation. And it's almost like you woke up out of that trance. And I think it would be helpful to hear people. Your story around where you were.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. I love you, baby. A lot of searching, a lot of seeking, a lot of running. I grew up in a world, as you know, that really valued achieving, really valued getting somewhere. And whomever wasn't at the top of that food chain was perceived as less than. So that was a lot of motivation for me throughout my life to really try to prove myself, and even more than that, to be seen as valuable, as worthy, as special. I stumbled on this later on, but what I was running away from back all those years was that if I wasn't valuable to anyone at any given moment, I could be abandoned. And that was really scary. So I did my best to win at everything, and that was really challenging. It was tiring. Sometimes it was fun when I would get to some level of accomplishment, but there was always something that would arise that would then knock that down relatively quickly, and I'd be back running. When spirituality entered my life.

[Alyson Abriga]

Well, before you go there, ground it a little bit. So paint a picture of how did it show up in your. In relationships, in business and in life.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. I wanted to be the best at everything. I thought that because I had been raised in a place where I had enough of a platform, then I had to use that platform of stability and financial and economic whereabouts to be able to go that much bigger, grow that much faster, and.

[Alyson Abriga]

And share what that platform is. Because people don't know some of your background.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. So I, growing up in Mexico, my family had a very large media company, and so it was very prominent. And wherever I went, most people would so identify me with that company. And the way that I held myself throughout all my upbringing was that I was so lucky and blessed to have that and that I had to build on top of that.

[Alyson Abriga]

Like a responsibility.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. Responsibility that I had to be more Successful than my predecessors, more successful than my. I'm a fourth generation on that line of the business. And it was really confusing because on one end, I wanted to grow and be more, and on the other end, I wanted to do my own thing. And since very early, I. I strived to get the best grades, and I did. I strived to go to the best college, and I did. I strived to get the cutest girl. And I did and had, like, all these things that were so relevant for me. And it was a lot of. A lot of running.

[Alyson Abriga]

It's almost like I'm hearing your story for the first time, which I kind of like because I'm interviewing you, and I'm just realizing how much more courage it takes to let something go that was working to a degree. So a lot of the times people get into spirituality because they're deeply depressed. Something's not working. But in the relative, it was working to a degree, it was getting you things. And yet there was still, I imagine, a background hum of anxiety or discontentment.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, I got really good at winning. And I think what that gave me was the opportunity to relatively early in life see that. That wasn't giving me what I thought it was going to give me and how impermanent those moments of satisfaction were. Right? And I think that's part of the challenge that people experience more towards midlife, where they've gotten to a certain place in their career, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, now what? This didn't do it for me. And it's like, well, let me go change careers. Let me go get the car. Let me go get divorced. I mean, all these things that. For me, that got accelerated a bit because I did have a lot of fuel and capacity to go and achieve and execute. So I was running at one point, like, 12 different companies, and I would say probably 11 of them failed. But it was my way of saying having FOMO for anything that presented itself. So if anybody came to me with an idea like, yes, we're doing it, I had to keep, like, a sheet back before Excel even was common ground writing down, because I lost track of the businesses that I had. And it was fun, but hard. And the motivation behind it was one that was really thirsty. And I would always make sure that I was seen in it. So I really perfected this quality of notice all these things and how amazing I am. And what that brought up was I would see other people that were more successful than me in whatever category I valued, whether that was financial or otherwise. And it would bring up this intense contraction in my body, and it's like, must run faster. Not there yet.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah. Competition.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

I remember before I started my business and started doing well, I used to tell myself that you had just, like, hit financial success, that you had won, and so that's why it was easier for you. Like, I made that excuse up, and then I started looking at other people in your lineage. It was like, well, that wasn't all of their story. And then I had a level of success and was like, oh, it's not about the outer world. It really. You take the same programming to the next level of success. And I had to walk that journey to really discover that. But I apologize, because I really use that as an excuse not to feel confronted with my own patterning or my own competition that I had in my early 20s when we met.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things that happens is that oftentimes, when we hit that wall, will turn our attention to things that are more important. A balanced life, quality, time with those we love, experiences, spirituality, consciousness, which is wonderful, but we are still. If we're still operating from that same orientation of not okay here, must get there, then we just change channels. And I changed channels, and spirituality became the new carrot, the new win. I would pursue. And I would see these enlightened masters, and I was like, okay, they've got it. And if I run fast enough and if I win here, that'll be it. Then I'll be really special, and then I'll never be abandoned. I'll be really valuable, and people will look at me and say, wow. And I won't feel sad and alone, and I won't meet this deep hole in the pit of my being that I was trying to escape my whole life.

[Alyson Abriga]

So taking that same operating system, searching outward, and now towards enlightenment.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

And so then what?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Well, that had a lot of fuel. And it pointed me in the direction of what I originally thought was happiness, joy, escaping, transcending. And I ran really quick in that direction. And as you know, we committed a lot of time to sitting in silence, going to dozens of silent retreats, just really head down, pedal to the metal. We're storming the gates of heaven here. And that was incredibly valuable. I don't know how necessary it was, but for my own personal unraveling, it was valuable.

[Alyson Abriga]

What did awakening mean to you in the beginning and what does it mean to you now? Because I think we play around with different terms, and I don't think we all mean the same thing.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. When I was chasing enlightenment or awakening, I think I thought it to be this state where I would then be in a constant experience of oneness. Because I had many moments of spiritual insights and revelation, even since I was young, where I remember like just everything seeming more vibrant and alive and just feeling things differently. And almost like that veil of separation fading. And I thought that that was what enlightenment was. I'm going to get there and that's going to be my experience all the time. And what I've realized is that that was still very much focused on a someone getting somewhere, experiencing a something. And that whole construct is what we awaken out of.

[Alyson Abriga]

Say more. Because I think this is really gonna. The more we ground this for people, I think the easier it is to see through it.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Awakening. We can buy into all these concepts, particularly if we've been seeking for a while. And if we're spiritually oriented, we can make it mean so many things. But in its simplest way, for me, it's very much a arriving so much into the moment that the discovery, instant to instant, becomes the lived mystery. It's not as something that is achieving. It's not a state that we're maintaining. It's a hollowing out of the structures that keep us looking somewhere else. I think spirituality, we're really. What we're talking about is being and becoming to some degree, right? And the becoming is in the realm of our human stories and our experience. Even if that becoming is becoming more awake, becoming more enlightened, becoming more conscious, whatever those are, it's still very much then and there when we realize that what we are has always been here and that no amount of becoming was ever going to deliver that. When we really stumble on that revelation, it's both like, huh, it's not the grand like, oh, my God of some of those big spiritual insights. There are some of those, and those are incredibly valuable. But it's. It's the simplicity of it that is so daunting.

[Alyson Abriga]

I think one of the biggest revelations that I had and you are pointing to was these chasing of states. I get really spiritually high and then think that was it. Rather than the deeper inquiry of let what comes come, let what goes goes. Find out what remains the simplicity you're speaking of in every moment. I can't be more of what I am at some points and other points. And so chasing this spiritual high was a cul de sac that I was just looping in. And I remember you pointed to that we have this beautiful teacher, Adyashanti, who has Been a guide for us. And he's now in retirement and just having that pointing to really supported me being like, oh no, it's here now. Oh no, it's here now. Even in this, everything is the one. It's not some things, it's all of it. And it's this backdrop of awareness, this foundation of what is. And so are there any other cul de sacs or misunderstandings that you see? People think enlightenment is like who is enlightened?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I think that is the tricky one. Right. There's still this identity with the one that is experiencing something. And then sometimes we think that we need to completely lose the ego or the me. But in reality is in that recognition that the me is just a part of the 1. This egoic construct is just one way in which life gets to experience itself. The embodied awakening is one that recognizes how much space is already available, how much freedom, how much permission is already given to whatever is here. And if what's here is contraction, if what's here is wanting to get somewhere else, if what's here, all of that is already allowed and recognizing that we are that field of allowance, that's powerful. And then what do I do? And then when the mind kicks in, yeah, okay, sure, but I've got bills to pay, I've got this, I've got children, I've got. And that was my excuse for a long time. I postponed and said, well, yeah, I hear you, it's here already. Great.

[Alyson Abriga]

Nothing to do.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, nothing to do. And yet here I am getting triggered and having to navigate my life and having kids back then, other teenagers and running businesses, and that's fine for the monasteries. And what I really here to say is it's available everywhere in the middle of the chaos and the trigger. Yeah. And I think part of the challenge is that we hold it as something so precious, so unique and so special, so reserved for those that have committed their lives to sort of silence to those monks. Yeah, it's here. And the. I think we're. We're very well versed in psychology, particularly at saying look inward. And it's become cliched.

[Alyson Abriga]

I'm just thinking another misunderstanding that I caught on was that if I'm fully realized, if I wake up to. To myself more fully, I wouldn't be triggered that I bought into that. And I think that's another thing just to question and look through. And I want to double click on what you said earlier. It's like there's this idea that then the sense of me of separation would Go away versus it being. Waking up to the sense of me and not so much holding on to that as truth, but it still can be here. Thoughts, feelings, all of that is still here. The personality is still here. Can you speak more to this?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's unconditional. These deep revelations to who and what we are make our conditioning simpler, more translucent, if you may. Less sticky. Only because we make it mean less about someone.

[Alyson Abriga]

This is not so personal. It's not such a big deal.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

When I had a strong spiritual. I probably still have a strong spiritual identity. But when that was associated with the sense of me, and I would get exposed as triggered or whatever it would be, he would be challenging that. Right. And that just in itself created the stickiness. Now when. When its palms open like this and there's a trigger that happens, and there's no defending or aggrandizing a particular identity. It's just like, oh, trigger happened to this conditioned personality.

[Alyson Abriga]

Mm.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's less rules, less ideas of how things should be.

[Alyson Abriga]

I'm curious how you see the intersection between spirituality and psychology.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

You know, we. I think some of us that are spiritually oriented think that we are going to enlighten as we've been speaking of, and that'll deal away with all of our humanity, and we'll be great and perfect. And those that go more down the spiritual path or the psychological path think that they're going to heal enough to sort of resolve all of their humanity. And these are both two paths that are. That are innocently trying to sort of avoid what is. And if spirituality or psychology are either used as tools of avoidance, then you're just trapped in this egoic construct that's pretending to know better. But if we're able to reside in this spiritual context and bring our humanity so intimately close, where we get to pick up the pieces that are wounded, that are sort of disoriented, disenfranchised, and we reclaim them and redeem them and recognize them as already perfect. That's spiritual psychology. It's reminding those little parts of our humanity of their already infinite and perfect nature.

[Alyson Abriga]

Human being.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

The divinity within the humanity, you said. Yeah, yeah. Break it down for us. Your healing process. You. There's a trigger that happens. What next? What's your process?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, I wouldn't even call it healing anymore.

[Alyson Abriga]

Okay.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, I would just. You know what? The images came up. It's like a soup where ingredients get dropped into the soup and they just become part of the soup. I am this. Embodying this Soupness. So I go through something that's going on in life and there's an emotional contraction because I get triggered because you don't want to play with me. And it triggers my wounding my psychological part that doesn't. Didn't feel wanted when I was young. Right. And felt unimportant with my dad. So I can, in that moment, I can sort of track that experience directly in my body. And it's an energetic and I can feel it. And then I drop in so curiously into it. And anybody listening to this can try it with whatever experience is. It can be positive, it can be negative. It's like, how curious can I get with what is here? And then that trigger becomes an invitation for more connection, for more intimacy, for life to get itself even more. And I am attentive to any kind of agenda to say, oh, I'm feeling this and I need to do something so that I stop feeling it. When in reality it's like, no, let me be so welcoming that this has an open door policy in this system that it can show up whenever it wants to and then I can deal with it relationally. That doesn't mean that I. I'm not able to give feedback, but then I'm able to give feedback from a place that is not charged and energetically heavy. And I think that's very different than how I used to approach my triggers. When I used to get triggered, it was like, oh, shoot, here's this thing again. It's back up. I thought I had dealt with it. Let me go and do what I have to do. All my psychological training to get rid of it. And spiritually, I would say I'm not really getting rid of it. I'm loving it, but then it goes away. Let me love it to death.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Walk us through the story with Mila and a more recent trigger.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Oh, yeah, that's another fallacy of. Of awakening. Right. We think that if we are living in this place of reciting, in this awakened recognition that we won't experience things as strongly. And I originally, part of my motivation was like, make this hurt less. And I had a situation with our oldest where she was having a fight with her sister, younger sister, and it was girl clothing catastrophe. And I did the very smart decision to get in the middle of it and suggested something that obviously didn't sit well with her, and she kicked me out of her room. And I have such a close relationship with her, as you know, and it's the first time that she's actually kicked me out of her room. And it deeply hurt. And so I walked out of the room, really hurt. And I went into my car, I went outside, I sat in my car, and I bawled and I cried. I don't think I had ever cried like that. Like, just heartache. I let the. That pierced me so deeply. And I realized that I had obviously experienced moments that had been a lot more hurtful in my life, But I was always trained to somehow karate my way around them. And I would do that through blaming them, through being a victim, through shutting down, through closing my heart, through even healing it and seeing what does this mean about me? And how do I resolve this? Why did I get triggered? But in this moment, it was just like, how deeply can I experience heartache? And it took me down to this pit of sorrow. You would imagine, like, the worst thing that happened to me, but it gave me access to that place that I had never actually, like, Almost like I rappelled down to this cavernous place that I'd never met before.

[Alyson Abriga]

Abandonment.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even label it. It was just like pure, raw sensation, Energy. Beautiful.

[Alyson Abriga]

What happened as a result of that?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

The tears of sadness turned into tears of joy.

[Alyson Abriga]

That's when you know you've really touched it to the core.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

That the thing that you are avoiding actually becomes the thing you deeply desire.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. And now then this thing that I had managed my whole life around, which was heartache, it's like, oh, make sure you do this so you don't get hurt. So you don't this. It's like, oh, I can. I get to experience heartache so deeply. And there's joy at the core of it. Wow. And then it's like, what else is there joy at the bottom of? You know, what else haven't I allowed myself to experience? And it can be something from the really big experiences to the really subtle and mundane ones. I had never experienced, truly, hunger or tiredness. I had always experienced the desire for hunger to stop or desire for tiredness to stop. It's like, oh, well, let me go get a coffee or let me go take a nap or let me. Let me eat if I'm hungry. It's almost like the. The itch had always been associated with the scratch, whatever that was. And then I drop into the body and experience hunger directly. And the aliveness inside of that sensation.

[Alyson Abriga]

Just living.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

That's life. Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Undefended heart.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Freedom.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Openness.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

And that's something that has been wonderful in relationship. When I feel something between us, I notice that the impulse to close down is an immediate reaction. But if instead of doing that, I move in closer, which sometimes feels like death.

[Alyson Abriga]

Turn to everything you want to do.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. It's like, what? And yet if I move in closer and open my heart, it's wonderful. It's very rewarding.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

And I get more of what I want.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah, you're good at it. And I would just encourage people to lean in when it feels safe in that relationship to start there.

[Unknown]

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[Alyson Abriga]

You've mentioned this a few times, and I think it's good to kind of highlight. But I think a lot of people get into spirituality as a way to opt out of their human experience. And then you go deeper into it and you realize it's about fully opting in. And I want to talk about spiritual bypass, because a lot of people use concepts that they hear spiritually as a way to avoid and bypass. Can you highlight or speak to this a bit more?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. I think there's wisdom sometimes in spiritually bypassing. You know, sometimes our system can't handle things and it's not ready to handle things. And it's like, okay, let me opt out for a moment. Let me go into this concept of it's all divine, it's all love, it's all God, and. And that sort of very smart coping mechanism at some point. Right. And it can be a transcendent quality. And even in our. In our. In the journey of awakening, there is a period of time when the revelation of who we are and by definition, who everyone else is makes everything so light that all the stories start losing meaning. And it's a very comfortable place for the ego to be, not to diminish the value of those experiences and that level of revelation. But it's like, oh, nothing is true. Nothing is real. It's all illusion. It's all a dream. Oh, my God, this is. And it becomes a little bit of a hiding place. So I am meeting humanity and relationships and all of this with almost like a comfy distance.

[Alyson Abriga]

Analyzing it, being above it.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Separate.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, yeah. And it's a natural state. You know, it's a natural part of the process. I think certainly it was for me. And then at some point, something happens where it matures and you realize that this spiritual heart just wants to dive in deeply into it. And it's very counter. Right. It's like I spent all this energy trying to escape and sort of not deal with this and not suffer. And. And now you're inviting me back into the den of the lion. And that's just what it does. And that is sometimes what I think is often missed in spiritual context. That second part of the circle, which is a continuous opening to that intensity and aliveness that is always available.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah. And I just am hearing a clear sign just to speak to, because there are. People can have psychotic breaks and go to the den and that depth very fiercely without safety. And I would say that as you embody what you are more fully, as you wake up to what you are, that is the safest, most healing, nourishing nervous system regulation. So just to remind people to make sure that there's some level of attunement to an awakeness of who and what you are, or psychological safety when doing some of the deeper work, because you're right, there can be a place for bypass. You can conjure consciously say, this isn't healthy for me to go into that right now. I don't have enough resource or nourishment. And I think you and I are both a fan of Ken Wilber's work around growing up, or at least the frame growing up and waking up. Because you can be totally awake and have a really messed up life. And you can have a really perfect life in terms of. You talk about this example of living in a jail where your jail cell is really clean, but you're still in jail. So you're not awake to who and what you are. But just to remind people to really have a level of nourishment and nervous system regulation as you do some of the deeper shadow work to meet the disenfranchised parts of yourself and the energy and different shadow work is going to be really helpful. Just as a psychotherapist, I feel my responsibility. Yeah. And not that, you know, and it's not ultimately that anything bad would happen, but it can just be a lot more graceful in terms of the integration. I know you also talk about different types of surrender. Can you talk to us about that?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. So I think there are different types of surrender. And when I hear the word surrender and there's. There's a popular sort of book about surrender and living from this place, I would misconstrue it to mean something that I think I understand now very differently. So let me. Let me elaborate. There's the surrender where you hit rock bottom, right. That surrender where the rug gets pulled under your feet. And we know people that have gone through those processes, Right. Where. Whether it's alcoholism or just life circumstances, and they take you to a place where you're just defeated and you're on the floor metaphorically or literally. And you see through the. The fact that your strategies are not going to Continue working. And if you are graced in those moments by. Not sort of have the new strategy come up, but there's enough momentum in there to really unravel. That's the kind of surrender that is incredibly powerful. Now, I don't recommend that path. That's a. That's. That's one option. One option, yeah. I don't necessarily endorse that. That's the one you should go pursue. Then there's the other surrender, which I think we can call the spiritual conditional surrender. The one that's in mainstream spiritual conversations, like, just surrender, let go, let it be, let go, that God, thy will. And that's lovely as a concept, but it's. We're really. What we're saying, or at least what I was saying. And what I've noticed a lot of people say when they're saying that we're going to surrender is like, I'll surrender as long as I'll surrender as long as it's going to be okay. Wherever you find you're okay. Maybe that my soul is going to be okay. I'll surrender because I know that. And you know, in some traditions, it's like, I'll surrender because my next life is going to be better. And it's always this way in which we condition our surrender. It's almost like those trust falls, you know, and. And you have your friends behind you and you're going to do this total surrender. And before you drop, you kind of look back and make sure that they're there and you kind of give them that look and kind of say, you better not drop me. Kind of surrender. That's like, yeah, I'll surrender to the degree that I trust that there's a net that you're going to catch me. Because that's the ego trying to surrender. Because the ego is looking for safety. Yeah, but there is no safety, period. There is no ultimate safety. All of our strategies for control are trying to get something that does not exist. We are this human body that is fragile, that will die.

[Alyson Abriga]

No safety in that world, in that.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Dimension, in any dimension.

[Alyson Abriga]

Let's unpack that.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Safety is only from the perspective of someone that wants an outcome that is controlled.

[Alyson Abriga]

Okay. To me, safety is presence. So maybe it's just a different definition.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, maybe. To me, the idea of safety is let me control circumstances. So who I think I am is okay.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah. That game will never never.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

So that's the conditional surrender. And then there's the other surrender, where I think a lot of our true spirituality takes us to the edge of the cliff. We think we can surrender, but we won't. But we'll be able to stay at the edge of the cliff. And when Gray shows up and gives us the nudge, we'll have a millisecond of capacity to say okay. And that's a surrender that is not rooted in any rationale or any conditioning. And to me, that's the purpose of seeking. That's the purpose of what we're doing in our spiritual path. Show up and be prepared for when that moment arrives that you're really able to let all of who you think you are unraveling.

[Alyson Abriga]

Was there a story in your own journey that you can share about that?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, there have been many little ones, one that comes to mind. I was on a nine, ten day silent retreat and it was probably about day six and I was tired, I wasn't sleeping so well. That's great place to be. What happens in silent retreats is that all of your stuff, all of my stuff comes up. Right. And all of the ways in which I manage around it. Some of the those strategies are seen more clearly. And at some point I felt like I was at a bar and I was looking for my next drink as an alcoholic. And I had that moment of thinking like, shit, it's never going to be enough.

[Alyson Abriga]

Like the searching for more spiritual enlightenment, more whatever in life, because people search in relationships and money and success.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. In this situation I was actually experiencing deep discomfort. And it was a combination of jealousy and a combination of just not feeling good enough. And I had always found ways to stay just above it. And in that moment, I lost. So it wasn't a spiritual moment of like, oh, let me. I really saw that I could not win. And how I describe it, it's almost like if my whole life had been this balloon that I was continuously inflating. And I was inflating it with accomplishments, with achievements, with being seen a certain way, with all these things that made my balloon grow to a certain degree. And I felt good about myself in terms of how big my balloon was at any given point compared to how I thought it should be or how other balloons were. But it always had this like little pin prick hole in it. So be blowing in credits while fighting this constant force that was pulling the air out. So it was this continuous struggling and striving. And in this retreat experience, what seem to have has happened is that this hole kind of became a gash. So this balloon that was so precious to me all of a sudden lost its entire container. And all of its contents were. Have had no place to be held. And all my fuel that was dedicated to inflating it had nowhere to go. And it's almost like one of those pilots in a stove, like the pilot just got snuffed out, like. And no matter how much gas comes out, no fire. And that was very strange and new and disorienting, but disorienting in a way that it wasn't uncomfortable. It was like spacious, vast, what now what? But it didn't really matter.

[Alyson Abriga]

I think a lot of people get to that place and then go to meaninglessness.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Can you speak to that? Because I don't want people to get stuck there.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's easy to have meaninglessness. And the reality is that there is a meaninglessness.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Things lose meaning. And it's comfortable, you know, it's comfortable to some degree and it's uncomfortable in another degree. Right. If the mind kicks back in and starts trying to make it wrong, it'll find all sorts of reasons why it's wrong and it'll go into hopelessness or meaninglessness or despair or whatever it is. And it doesn't feel like the whole thing collapsed, if that's still happening.

[Alyson Abriga]

Okay. Yeah. Because some people also go through depression and they've had their whole life around achievement. And then it's just like seeing through the game and being like, what?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. That's a psychological experience in my sense. That's a logical, rational, like, oh, okay, this is not going to do it for me. Crisis.

[Alyson Abriga]

So for that person that is listening and is there.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

What would you say?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's a great place to be.

[Alyson Abriga]

Okay.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

That hopelessness is your rock bottom, metaphorically speaking, and all you want to do is find a way to get back up. But if you're able to stay in that space of hopelessness and meet hopelessness and see truly through the whole mechanism that you've been oriented your whole life, then hopelessness can be used to unravel that which has always been okay.

[Alyson Abriga]

And to meet hopelessness as a direct experience, not as a story in your mind, because that's where you start looping again and again.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

That's right. That's right. What does hopelessness feel like in your body in that moment, in this moment.

[Alyson Abriga]

Directly, that divinity meeting your humanity fully.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, but it's. It's. It's a hard thing. Right. It's a challenge because it. There's. We've been trained to not experience hopelessness or despair or whatever it may be.

[Alyson Abriga]

And I think a lot of the times it's the resistance to feeling something that is harder than the direct experience of it. Whatever the emotion or experience is. Sensation.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. I often. I'm really busy with things and the kids and picking up and doing things and. And I find myself in mind, like busy. And then I just drop into the moment. At any given moment, it's like, oh, it's right here. What is true right now? At the core of all of this is this longing, this desire for truth. What is true? Whatever you want to call it, maybe liberation or. But at the core, it's what is true. And no one can tell you what's true. It's like what is true for you right now. Not what was true then, not what you think should be true. One of the most important questions been confronted with is what do I know to be true to such a degree of certainty that I would bet my loved one's life on it? Now that really raises the stakes. And it starts showing me all the concepts that really don't hold ground when my loved one's life is at stake.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah. It takes you to the edge of your knowing.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. It's that cliff that we're speaking of.

[Alyson Abriga]

And so for people that have been on the path for a while, they've been seeking. They want to know themselves deeply. They're interested in ultimate freedom. What do you want to share?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I get it. And as convinced as you are that everything you've done is incredibly valuable, you need to be willing to let all of it go. All your insights, all your revelations, all your memories and experiences of what you're trying to get back to. Because that is the phenomenon of the seeker. Right. It's I had it, I lost it. And it's stopping for a moment. All that postponement of who you really are, and using your spiritual longing to pull you back into the source of that longing, just reversing that course in this moment right now. What is it that is longing? What is it that is seeking?

[Alyson Abriga]

What is seeing through these eyes?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. Because what we see has always changed. Right. What we listen to right now, we're listening to this where has always changed. But that which is doing the listening, that which is seeing, that has never not been here.

[Alyson Abriga]

For those watching, I'm having one of those moments that we go into where it feels like there's just this deep seeing. And it's almost like a paintbrush has just washed through everything.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's very compelling to think that this is it.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yeah.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

One of the greatest gifts I got, one of the last retreats I went Was that I had a very powerful experience of oneness where I was out in the forest and I was one with everything. There was no. The trees were alive, I was the trees. It was all so vibrant. And I was simultaneously aware that it was just an experience. And at the moment it was strange. But then later I realized it was this amazing gift, saying even that it's just form, the most precious, most insightful. Just an appearance, just a wave.

[Alyson Abriga]

Nothing to hold on to, no one.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

To hold on to it. Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

And it's similar in relationship. Like when it's really seen through. There's so much misunderstanding that happens in relationship. People searching for a relationship to give them something so they feel whole. When that's woken up to when we realize we are the source of love, that we project what we are onto everything. It is. It is. Then people ask, how do you choose a partner? And it's so unromantic and so much more freeing to just align with seeing everyone as the one and to a lie. For us, it was a lot about it being out of our control. Just the surrender of. And it's still a story. It's still, you know, even in our vows, it was like, I will let go of who I've imagined you to be and wake up to you anew. And the willingness to let each other go.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, yeah. That's profound. And I know that when I made those vows, there was an element of safety in that, an element of I'm fully here until I'm not, which I think is beautiful. And it just depends where it's coming from. And if I'm really honest right now, there's a small, slight piece that keeps its. I don't even know that that's totally accurate. But I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there is currently a maturing in that experience of relating to you, even from that place of knowing that this is all just that that really claims you, that really leans in, that really is like. So it's almost like this freedom that I thought was going to liberate me from my preferences is more fully embodying my preferences. And it's maybe more fully embodying my preferences because there's also a knowing that it's all okay. So it's almost like you. You manage your preferences when you don't know if you're going to get them, because if you don't get them, you'll be hurt or disappointed. But if you don't mind getting hurt or disappointed, then you don't have anything to manage.

[Alyson Abriga]

Freedom.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

That is freedom and the realization that someone else doesn't give you something. You are me. There's no separation and in that there's more freedom. There's no managing control, manipulation. Everything that I thought somebody else gave me was me already.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

And so there's a deeper freedom in that and there's stages of this. But then you end up lining up with people who match your values and. And maybe you have some non negotiables. You want to be in partnership with somebody that will help meet you spiritually. Elevate a deeper knowing and embodiment of what you are. Maybe that's important, but it's less romantic and it's more poetic and it's more. It's a bigger love affair with all of life. Self love, all of life. Not just egoic special love to certain people that match or you think you're going to get your needs met. And so I didn't mean to go there, but it just. It's awake, it's here now in this.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

And then a place to. To business. It applies to parenting. It applies to everything.

[Alyson Abriga]

Tell me, in business how what you realize shows up differently now than before?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I don't know that it's that different in form.

[Alyson Abriga]

Yes, Very different in experience.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Similarly to relationally. I'm able to venture into things with this deep curiosity and interest while simultaneously knowing that it's just a story.

[Alyson Abriga]

There's like a holding of it lightly. I experience you holding it lightly.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. And it's very strange. It's paradoxical. It's like deep care and deep blah. Like from one perspective it doesn't really matter. And from another perspective, which is not different, just another side of that coin. Deep care for things, deep care for people. I find myself caring more deeply for humans than actually for animals too lately than I ever have. And I think that's partly why these teachings were reserved for people that were really committed to this path before. Right. You had to spend many years before you had access to these kinds of teachings. And there was a wisdom in that because for an ego, the idea that it really doesn't matter, that it's all one, that it's a story, that it's all an illusion, all those things. It's like free reign. So you had to really spend time in a monastery or in the mountains or wherever it was learning under a teacher before you had access to this level of exposure. And now we can get it everywhere on YouTube or anywhere. So I think it's important to be attentive to those parts of the ego that want to hijack this and still use it in its own little.

[Alyson Abriga]

And to stay true.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

To really honor your truth over any teacher teaching that you have that orientation and a, knowing you already are awake, and to trust that above all else, because any good teacher is going to point you back to yourself. Yeah, I know. I asked you about a poem because I like your poetry. Are you open to sharing one with.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, I found one that I can share. One of the things that really unraveled things for me was a. And a part of what I really like is that my mind is very skeptical.

[Alyson Abriga]

So you also have an engineer mind. You really see things in a different way.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I get curious and I'm like, let me. Let me. Let me slow that down and really check it for myself. So anyone that's listening to this, that this feels metaphysical or ethereal. It's actually quite the opposite. It's very rational. And I used my rational mind to take me to the edge of what it understands. And I used my rational mind to say, okay, this concept of time we talk about, be here, now, the present. And it's like, where is this present? Let me really try to find it, because I identify it as this line with a future over there, a past over there, and the present somewhere in the middle.

[Alyson Abriga]

Linear.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. And then where is this present in the middle that I need to be available for? And it's like, well, it's here. And it's like, well, is it really here? Like, well, I'm feeling something, but by the time I'm feeling something, it's sort of neurological impulses that went up to my brain that are telling me that I'm feeling something. So that's already in the past. So anytime I'm trying to be here, I'm just catching up to what just happened. And what just happened is in my memory. It's not here anymore. So then I'm continuously in memory recalling what is. So then what is truly here that is not dependent on memory. That's the construct of time that starts really falling apart. Like, if every thought I have about anything, including what is, is a fabrication of my memory or a recollection which can be altered, then what is true? And then this time, which is. Acts like a canvas for our stories because we need a past, we need a future for our stories. If that's not solid, then all these stories have nowhere to stand.

[Alyson Abriga]

And that's a more advanced inquiry.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's advanced to the degree that you're willing to Stay with it.

[Alyson Abriga]

That there's not even a now, because the moment you think it's now, it's already passed and filtered. And I remember with our oldest, when the kids were younger, they didn't understand the concept of time. So there's the psychological time that's made up. And it's very obvious with kids. And I remember thinking, do I teach them? Do I musical to ruin them? But it feels like a stimulus stage of evolution, egoically and ego, not bad. But to see, to play in the world of time, but then to wake up beyond the illusion of time is a more mature or advanced inquiry.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, it's super functional. I mean, thank God, I think in terms of time, like I wouldn't, wouldn't do anything if I wasn't. If I didn't have a linear understanding. This is how this 3D world operates with, with past, present and future. And that's phenomenal. But when we are not bound by that, and it doesn't take a metaphysical or spiritual approach, takes just a very inquisitive, scientific approach almost of like, let me get very granular here with what really is here in my direct experience. And when I'm not going to my memory to tell me what is here, even if it's my immediate memory, then what is here? And I give a reference to people. Imagine there's a water faucet, right? And there's water coming out of the faucet. And by the time you're catching the water, it's already left the faucet. So this now is almost like at the mouth of the faucet, the water emerging. You can't catch it, you can't conceptualize it now. It's this continuous unfoldment that is happening here. It's formlessness giving birth to form, timelessness, giving birth to time. And to be able to embody time from a ground of timelessness or formlessness, that's incredible.

[Alyson Abriga]

I know you and I both value self inquiry, questioning who am I? Will you share the story that you've shared around identifying who you are if you're in the hospital?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Something I used to do to the kids where it's like, okay, who are you? And they're like, well, I'm me. I was like, oh yeah, you're you.

[Alyson Abriga]

You're pointing to the body.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So they would point to their body. So I was like, oh, great. So you're your body. Okay. And anybody listening to this or seeing this, just do it on your own. Okay, so where are you? Right this, me that you reference a million times a day, where is this me? Where is this I? And you know, if you have a sense of self in your body, okay, you point to, but try to be very specific. Where in the body is this eye? And my kids. The kids would say, well, it's everywhere. Everywhere. It's like sometimes it heads sometimes hard sometimes. And then I would go through this exercise of like, okay, I'm going to cut your arms off. Is there still an eye? And they'd be like, yeah, okay, got no arms. I'm cutting your legs now. Still an I. Yeah. Okay. I am chopping your abdomen. We're getting very close to the chest. Still an eye. Yeah. And start taking pieces out. And all of a sudden I would take their eyes out and I'd be like, okay, is there still an eye? Like, no, no more eye. It's like, oh, so your eye was in your eyes? Like, no, no, I guess there still is an eye and your ears and your nose. And eventually, if we slowed it down, we would end up with a brain and a heart. And they still think it was an eye. Right. And then I'd substitute the heart with like a machine that was pumping and there was still an I. And then the brain sort of took up pieces of the brain. And it's this ever elusive I that we take as such for granted. We don't question this sense of self that we operate out of that our whole experience of being humans is based on. And something so fundamental goes unquestioned for.

[Alyson Abriga]

Most of our lives, then this is the invitation.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

That is the invitation not to find the answer, but to live that question. To sit at the edge of that cliff in that question and let grace reveal what's always been true.

[Alyson Abriga]

And for those who are very mental, the notice different stories that come up and be in the stillness and in the silence and just get curious that it doesn't need to come. The answer is not going to come in thought. But what is your direct experience when you remove all of the stories and identities of who we've thought we've been.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. Use your mind. Run it as an experiment. Use it as this tool. One of the most praised teachers in non duality, Ramana Maharishi, would say that the mind is like a stick that you use to toss the fire. And eventually even the stick goes, but you use it.

[Alyson Abriga]

Beautiful.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Do you want to share that poem or do you feel complete?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I can share it.

[Alyson Abriga]

Okay.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

It's ten pages. No, I'm kidding. Formless. Grabs the hand of form and lets it Take it on a stroll Formless goes where it is taken it knows these streets it knows them all form is looking for a something it once heard would make it whole but all this searching and this looking Began to take its toll One lucky night it lost its balance and had a fatal fall Formless grabs the hand of form and takes it out to play but now this form seems different it lets formless show the way.

[Alyson Abriga]

Beautiful. Thank you. Just in closing, if you could whisper one truth into the heart of everyone on the planet, what would it be?

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Notice what's already awake and place your attention there.

[Alyson Abriga]

I love you.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

I love you, baby.

[Alyson Abriga]

And I know you have a book and I know that you are available to serve and support in different ways. Talk to us about your book and where people can stay connected. For those that are interested.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah, it's emiliosbook.com is a website called.

[Alyson Abriga]

The Mystery of you.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

That's the book? Yeah.

[Alyson Abriga]

Freedom is closer than you think.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Yeah. And that's on Amazon and I have some blogs and I'm currently running the University of Santa Monica where we teach spiritual psychology. You can check that out. Go usm. Edu.

[Alyson Abriga]

Beautiful. We'll put all the links here below. I love you.

[Emilio Diaz Barroso]

Me too. Thank you.

[Unknown]

Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself. It truly does make a difference. And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost free way to support us is by following us. It does help us grow and we are so grateful. Leave a review on Apple or Spotify, submit a screenshot of that and upload it to Alysonabriga.com podcast as a thank you gift, we will be sending you one of the most powerful tools that you can use on any area of your life to help you tap into your full potential so that you don't let fear hold you back from really stepping into your dreams. I have so much more magic I want to share share with you and I cannot wait to do that soon. But for now I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.