← Healing + Human Potential
Healing + Human Potential
This Reframe Will Change How You See Love, Boundaries, and Self-Worth | EP 92
01:04:40
What if your need to prove your worth is actually the wound you’re here to heal? In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Thema Bryant to explore how trauma, people-pleasing, and overgiving often shape our sense of identity — especially for service...
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- [00:00]
Dr. Tama Bryant
The parts of me that don't feel sacred or enough are based in a lie. It's not the degrees or the resume or who I'm affiliated with. It's just in and of myself, I'm sacred.
- [00:10]
Alyson Abriga
We're conditioned to equate love with self sacrifice. How do you work with and empower people to start setting those boundaries?
- [00:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Let people love you. If everyone in our lives only depends on us and we're not receiving, there is something we're doing that is co creating that pattern. It's not just a matter of can you make it without the nourished, but do you choose to be nourished or not? When someone really cares about you, there's room in your connection for disagreement. If you have to agree with everything they think and say, that's not really a friendship. They just want a clone or a puppet, but they don't actually want to connect with you.
- [00:50]
Alyson Abriga
Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast where today we're diving into the power of healing, specifically around how to stop over giving in relationships, what the impact is of being the parentified child in adulthood, and how to heal from patterns of self abandonment. We'll also explore the importance of boundaries breaking free from survival patterns and reconnecting with our true self. Joining us is Dr. Tama Bryant, a psychologist, author and advocate offering transformative wisdom on personal growth and self empowerment for creating lasting change. I'm so happy to have you here.
- [01:23]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Oh, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [01:26]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. I'm just blown away by how profound work is that you do, not only in therapy, but in art and activism, poetry. I'm curious about your upbringing and if there was a moment in childhood that really shaped who you are in the work that you're doing today.
- [01:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. So both of my parents were in ministry and very much into what we would call liberation theology. So with liberation theology, it's not enough to just have services Sunday morning, we're open seven days a week doing things for the community. So having like a. A degree program, an elementary school, a place where you could get free clothes and shoes, job training, like holistic care. And so growing up, seeing that really touched me to, I would say minister to the whole person and to connect with community in ways that will be empowering. And it's not when I was growing up, but when I was early in my career, I was invited to speak somewhere at a medical school. And the person who was introducing me talked about me as a poet and a psychologist. And so I was interweaving the poetry with my talk. And so when it was over, this guy comes up to me and he got a doctor comes up to me and says, well, like which one are you? Because I'm just very confused by you. So when I left, I got in the parking lot and I called my mom and she has like this very distinct voice and she goes, tama, single gifted people will rarely understand multi gifted people. To them you will always look scattered, just be everything you are. And that I have held on to that and being all the things right. Of like, I don't have to choose, I can be all of myself.
- [03:24]
Alyson Abriga
That's beautiful. It sounds like you had really inspiring parents and leaders in the community.
- [03:30]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, very much so. And like I say, none of me is an accident. It's like formed and influenced by them. So my mother dedicated years of her life to what was called women's ministry and would do like these women's retreats. And so one of my first leadership positions actually was becoming president of the Society for the Psychology of Women and looking at, you know, what are ways that we can be whole and well and not just be in survival mode, but thriving. So I really have a heart for girls and women's mental health.
- [04:04]
Alyson Abriga
The more I learn about you, the more I'm inspired and blown away. And now your family lineage and I. Yeah. And I know that in service providers a lot of us get into this work with a really good heart. And on the other side some, there's some shadow work around over giving. And I'm thinking about my audience, audience and people who may overextend in relationship trying to fix or save or heal their partner. What are some ways we can look at ourselves and do some of the art inner work so that we don't burn out, we don't betray ourselves or get resentful.
- [04:37]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [04:38]
Alyson Abriga
What are some things that we can.
- [04:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Do to be aware of this is so important because those of us who go into this work are for the most part very compassionate, giving people and are used to being the strong one. Right. The contained one. And, and let me like people please or heal or help or be a little mini messiah and go around being a guru, rescuing people. And that is not only exhausting, it's unsustainable and it denies our own humanity. So one of the things I teach in the graduate program at Pepperdine University and while kind of professional advancement advice is important, one of the topics I think we often neglect is relationships for people who are in our position and the importance of being with People where there's mutuality and reciprocity. I like to say, like, let people love you, right? Let people show up for you. Because if everyone in our lives only depends on us and we're not receiving, there is something we're doing that is co creating that pattern.
- [05:40]
Alyson Abriga
Yes.
- [05:41]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And often it's when we're struggling, we hide, we isolate and then we just show up when we're shiny and strong. And so people just think, oh, you have no issues, no problem, don't need any help. And it causes us to miss ourselves. So self neglect is a big thing for helpers and healers.
- [06:02]
Alyson Abriga
Yes, it is, yeah. And I think a lot of people misunderstand. Empathy is being with someone when they're hurting, whereas sympathy is feeling for them. It's like projecting what we imagine we would feel if we were in their shoes, suffering with M and S therapists, you and I know if we were to do that, we would burn out. It's not sustainable, like you said. And yet being with someone while they're feeling, when we're present and connected with them, when they're feeling something, not only helps them move through it, but then it's actually more effective. And I think people don't, they may know that, but they don't really feel that. I think a lot of us didn't have models and examples and I think somehow we unconsciously think it's loving to suffer with someone.
- [06:45]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And I think along those lines, the more you do the work, the more you can trust the process. So when we're first starting off, we don't trust the process. And we may handle the therapy time the way we would do a friendship. So with a friendship, like we don't get off the phone till you feel better, right? We're going to be on the phone all night, we're going to stay up all night, like until there's some shifting, we're just there. And so when we first start off doing therapy or coaching, if you don't trust the process, you don't know how to end the moment and say, like, we dropped a seed here and that's okay. And the suffering people are experiencing usually didn't happen in one moment, Right. It's been years in the making. So it's going to be more than a single moment for like the shifting. But when I trust it, when I trust what we're doing here and I trust the work, then I can end the moment and know, like this, this isn't the end. So it's okay. It's okay. That it's not neatly packaged.
- [07:46]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. And you said something earlier, which I didn't remember the exact words, but it was essentially like honoring the dignity of their own process, that they have all the inner resources to navigate their inner experience and having a compassionate space held for them while they find that. And again, I even know this mentally. But are there some deeper processes to. Because I did a ceremony with my dad this summer. My dad does shaman, and I was learning from the trees about receiving. I was like, the trees in the environment were teaching me that as I learn to receive the way that they do, then I'm part of the whole, that it's not self sacrifice. And so I'm wondering if there are any practices, somatic tools, or processes that really help people go from knowing it to living it.
- [08:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, the compassion holds are really helpful. The compassion holds allows us to tune into what's happening in the body, to feel our feelings. And I like to say to take sacred pause, right? Because when my anxiety and rescuing is driving, then I have to, like, fill the moment. I have to fill the silence. And some of the silence is where the work is gonna happen. Right. Like, they can't even sit with it because I'm so busy trying to pull them out of it.
- [09:01]
Alyson Abriga
Right.
- [09:02]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And so when we're sharing or either when someone has said something difficult or even if they give like that, the typical answer of I don't know or I don't know or I don't care, instead of, like, now I gotta ask you 10 more questions. Let's pause there with the not knowing, Right? Let's pause with the not caring. So one compassion hold is a hand on your belly and a hand on your heart. And we inhale in through the nose and exhale out through the mouth. And then one hand on the heart, one hand on the forehead, inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through the mouth, and then embracing yourself. And some people have gone a while without a hug. So I can give that to myself, show up for myself. Inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through the mouth. And then, because we want to honor that, we're the expert on ourselves, that big word, interoceptivity, which is just bodily awareness. I'll say, you know what? Most aligned with you. So I invite you to go back to the position that Most was nourishing to you in this moment, whichever one it is. There's no right answer. So you just reflect in which of the three. This one or this one or this one. The hug. Yep. And I'm going To go to this one and we just give ourselves an extra one of the one that met us where we are in this moment. And the gift of that is to honor that you're the expert on yourself. Like, I don't know what feels right to you in the moment, but you know that's right.
- [10:59]
Alyson Abriga
What I love about that is that it's helping then the client pay attention and also feel like the expert in their own healing journey.
- [11:07]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And agency. Right. I work a lot with trauma survivors where choice was taken from you. So any opportunity to let people choose.
- [11:16]
Alyson Abriga
Yes.
- [11:17]
Dr. Tama Bryant
That body sovereignty. Right. You get to say what your body does or doesn't do.
- [11:22]
Alyson Abriga
That is healing in and of itself. To see that. Yes. And a lot of people learn to be what everybody else wanted them to be. So practices like this, not the somatic practice, but also the way you are being as a therapist in session with them is also helping remind them and rewire and offer a healing experience.
- [11:41]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And that's in part why it's so important for us to be like grounded and clear. People who have been in stressful, toxic, abusive situations become very good at reading people.
- [11:55]
Alyson Abriga
Hyper vigilance.
- [11:56]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. You gotta like be on it and see where is this other person sometimes even before I figure out where I am. And so because people are being vigilant, it's especially important to know it's not just like a script. Right. Of like, it's not just a matter of like, do I say the right thing? Right. Because more than what you say, people are feeling you. Right. So it's more be authentic and the rest will flow from that.
- [12:23]
Alyson Abriga
And like you said, a lot of this is not just the moment. And so don't to put pressure and to think that you need to help resolve it. But I'm even thinking like questioning that something is wrong in that moment. I loved your pause around let's be with the not knowing or the not caring. Because the not knowing or not caring can come from defense.
- [12:40]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [12:40]
Alyson Abriga
And if we're not trying to know and we don't know whether it's a defense or we genuinely don't know, there's more peace around it and there's more trust and their innate wisdom and capacity.
- [12:52]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And then it also takes it out of being like this tension. If I'm trying to pull something out.
- [12:57]
Alyson Abriga
Of you that I'm the expert, I'm going to heal you.
- [12:59]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right? Right. Like tell me, tell me, don't know.
- [13:02]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. And more dependency.
- [13:03]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [13:04]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [13:04]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [13:05]
Alyson Abriga
I love this.
- [13:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Leaving it to us to tell Them their truth.
- [13:09]
Alyson Abriga
Right, right, right. Connecting them back to their own agency, like you're saying. And a lot of us learn this in childhood. I mean, yes, it can be trauma responses as well. And some of that trauma response can be from being the parentified child. For those that don't know what that is, it's where you're caretaking for your parents physically, emotionally, or both. So caring for the siblings, managing the house, being there for the parents when they had a hard time. And I think what that does is it teaches children as adults to abandon their own needs for a functioning family or to fight, feel safe and loved.
- [13:46]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [13:46]
Alyson Abriga
And so some of this stuff then can show up in adulthood where we're continuing to abandon our needs and attract somebody who supports that, or us overworking and burning out. Like, there's lots of different manifestations of it. What have you found helpful with people to just keep coming back to what their truth is around and really checking in with themselves rather than that hyper vigilance and maybe if they were parentified children, because it runs deep.
- [14:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. I think a part of it is releasing the aspect of us that has made that our identity. And it's the point of our pride. Right. That as a kid you were told you were an old soul. Hey, that sounds wonderful. Like, oh, I've always been wise since I was 10 years old. Well, no, you were in a circumstance where you couldn't really be a kid. Right. So now instead of having to hold on to, like, I'm the old wise soul, it's like, I want to get my play. I want to recall that, reclaim that, or claim it for the first time. And so not needing to have all the answers, being able to get in the practice of saying, I'm not sure or I don't know, instead of making things up. And also that sacred pause before to check in with myself. I especially say that for people pleasers when people ask us to do something, especially me being raised by two ministers. Like, the thought was like, anyone who needs you or wants your help, you have to say yes. And so learning, like, you're not a bad person to say no. Right. And you don't need a big long explanation for your no, it's just okay for you. Right. Thinking about putting other people's needs first as well, and then wanting to parent in a different way. In some ways, you know, growing up, a part of my, I would say, both cultural and religious community was kind of. Children needed to be obedient, and that included around physical touch. So if adults wanted to hug you like you had to be hugged even if you weren't comfortable, even if you didn't like it. And you'll see these examples of adults who are laughing about children squirming. Right. Like, come on, you're going to give me a kiss. And they're holding them. And the more upset the kid is, the more hilarious the adults think it is, which is like severely problematic. And it teaches the message of it doesn't matter what you want, what do other people want from you? And you better give it to them. Right. Which is a terrible setup. And so, you know, some people, when I share that will push back and say, well, I don't want rude children. There's a difference between being rude and being able to say you don't want physical contact. Right. So you can say like, oh, my children have to speak. If an adult says hello, you say hello. Okay, we could do that.
- [16:38]
Alyson Abriga
Right.
- [16:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So learning as we want to break cycles, how do I model for people and teach people around their own consent not only to touch, but just their own energy, their time, their space, what they need, what they want, and giving people space and affirmation to do that.
- [16:58]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. It's so important because if a child learns to abandon their no, they're going to consistently do that and then they can be manipulated and they continue to confor form and lose connection with what their truth is.
- [17:12]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, absolutely. And once you're disconnected from that, that's one violation often leaves you vulnerable or at risk to future because you just learn to freeze and kind of wait for the moment to be over or try to make sure everybody else is approving of you.
- [17:28]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just. And if there's a parent that's like, oh, I'm doing that. Just offering ourselves compassion and then learning a different way. We're just advancing the past generations.
- [17:38]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Absolutely. Because we repeat what we know and we can be well intentioned. And often our parents and grandparents were well intentioned. And to know as you're naming, to acknowledge another way or to acknowledge the consequences of the old way is not to say like that people were monsters. We're human beings and did some things great. And I want to model it just like that. And some things, no, thank you. I want to do it another way.
- [18:06]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. And I think sometimes people are like, well, I did know better. There's like mental knowing there's integrated in your heart and your gut. And so just again, just like offering people compassion. If we had really known differently, we would have. And we are Further advancing our past.
- [18:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Generations, doing our best and a beautiful gift with our learning. And knowing is even when we can go back to people, whether it's our children or friends or partner to, it can be years later and still make that acknowledgement that can be healing for people. Because so many times people never get an apology or never get an acknowledgement of like, I can see how that was hurtful to you now. Right. That can be very freeing.
- [18:46]
Alyson Abriga
We can do that without the guilt, right? Yeah. Just to be like, oh, I, I'm learning differently now and I'm sorry for the way that I showed up in the past. Yeah.
- [18:55]
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- [21:18]
Alyson Abriga
Anytime we abandon ourselves to make a relationship work, it was never going to work. And you talk about how sometimes we're conditioned to equate love with self sacrifice and the power and the sacredness of honoring our truth and our no. And it can be really hard for people to set boundaries and have the sacredness in their no. How do you work with and empower people to start setting those boundaries?
- [21:44]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. So I find role plays are very helpful.
- [21:48]
Alyson Abriga
Yes. They are.
- [21:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. To give you an opportunity to feel it in your body to think about what you want to say. And an important part is preparing people for the range of possible responses. Sometimes you'll set a boundary with someone and great responses. When people are like, oh, thank you, I didn't know that like that you felt that way. You know, now I know and they shift and like, wasn't that beautiful?
- [22:09]
Alyson Abriga
Ideal. Right.
- [22:11]
Dr. Tama Bryant
But then other times where people are going to get angry or people will act like they're okay with it, but then continuing doing the old way, some people act confused. Right. I don't know what you're talking about. And like I've never done that before. And so preparing, especially when we have anxiety about upsetting people and to know that when someone really cares about you, there's room in your connection for disagreement. Right. If you have to agree with everything they think and say, that's not really a friendship. Right. It's they just want like a clone or a puppet, but they don't actually want to connect with you.
- [22:51]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. There's so much in what you just said and I'm just seeing how that influences. Yes. Every relationship, but also team dynamics. Like any relationship, you want to have healthy conflict. You want to be able to support and respect somebody's other opinion and to find your okayness with them being disappointed that we can have the tools to navigate their disappointment. And it's okay if it's hard for us.
- [23:16]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It is.
- [23:16]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [23:17]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And I love that you're applying it to teams. I think about this when we have diverse people or underrepresented people in a space, but, like, don't want anything to change. So basically that's like tokenism. So we want, like, their face on, like, the brochure or the website or to be able to say, I had one. But, like, if they come with a different perspective, then that's the discomfort. Yeah. And can I recognize, like, growing pains, stretching pains, as opposed to the idea of, like, if anyone's uncomfortable, something's wrong?
- [23:49]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, that's right. And I think redefining that healthy relationships include disagreement and healthy confrontation. I think if people really just got that, that they can find their okayness even when others aren't, that we can work with the parts of us that feel scared or it triggers abandonment or I'm not going to be loved and safe. That would change every relationship where people are playing this out and teams. And that is the ground of, like, really starting to shift, that that's normal and healthy to have conflict. And it's how we navigate it because it's going to make us better as a result of hearing diverse opinions and ways of thinking about collect, like, creatively problem solving. But you also mentioned role play and some scripts. Do you have any that you can help ground us? Because I know people want to be more honest with their nose and speak their truth. And I would encourage people to start with the relationships they feel safest with. Kind of like building that muscle, Right?
- [24:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Absolutely.
- [24:47]
Alyson Abriga
Before those bigger ones.
- [24:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And, you know, when we're creating maybe, you know, our list of people we want to become more honest with. To start with the ones that feel safer.
- [24:58]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [24:58]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Because let's say if the hardest one is some powerful person. Right. And if you start there and then kind of shut down or it's not effective, then you're going to give up and say, like, oh, it doesn't work. Let me go back to silencing myself, censoring myself. So I start with the people who I am most likely to think will be receptive to hearing a different perspective. They don't have to agree with me, but there's room with them. They have, like, a spaciousness about them of like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Right. Because it does build our confidence. And to start in a simpler way, I give as like an activation exercise is this week, let's say three to five times. When someone says, how are you doing? Give an honest answer. Ooh, right. Instead of finding you, that's the script.
- [25:50]
Alyson Abriga
You're right.
- [25:50]
Dr. Tama Bryant
How are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm Fine. It means nothing. Like, the fine means nothing. And we can feel more than one thing at the same time. So maybe, like, I'm tired, but I'm excited about something or feeling disappointed because I was waiting for something to happen, it didn't happen. Now, I'm not saying for your three to five people to be random people.
- [26:11]
Alyson Abriga
In the supermarket, actually, do you have a minute? Right, exactly.
- [26:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's like, hold on, I'm not doing well.
- [26:18]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
But that's a way of having more genuine intimacy and for you and the other person to be in practice of there being room for you in the relationship. Right. Because sometimes we'll talk about people who call us, who take up all the airtime, and then if we shift to ourselves, like, then they end the call. Right. They all gotta go.
- [26:38]
Alyson Abriga
Okay, so what would be something powerful? Because I know there's a lot of service providers, helpers, listening that are like, yes, yes, that's them.
- [26:46]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So when someone calls and they have said, kind of gone on for a minute to say, let me jump in for a minute. Is this a way to acknowledge, like, I'm. I'm interrupting this flow. Let me jump in for a minute. Because I'm really appreciative that you're reaching out to tell me about what's happening. And I want to share with you my thoughts about what you just shared. But I also want to let you know there have been some things happening for me as well. So I'm hoping we'll have enough time for both of us to get to talk.
- [27:16]
Alyson Abriga
Beautiful. It's like a microscopic truth. You're sharing your experience. You're making yourself important in that relationship and not just being bulldozed.
- [27:23]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. Waiting to, like, the very end where they're like, oh, is anything going on with you? And you're like, no, no, no, I'm good.
- [27:28]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. You're like, it's already been an hour. I gotta go. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
To say, like, you know, I wanna hold space. And then I should also say for us not waiting for other people to initiate contact. Right. Because then you're like, oh, they only call when they need something. And it's like, and when do you call?
- [27:44]
Alyson Abriga
And was your role.
- [27:45]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. Yes, yes.
- [27:47]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [27:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So, yeah. Initiating exchanges. And there's also the boundaries and the know. When I'm clear that something isn't going to be mutual, then if they're calling, I check in with myself to say, do I have energy to pour? Because all I'm going to be doing is pouring. This is not a Friendship. So then I can say like I have it or I don't have it, like I'm willing to do it in this moment or no, that's not how I want to spend my Saturday afternoon. So I'm not answering.
- [28:17]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, that's self honoring.
- [28:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [28:19]
Alyson Abriga
So what I'm hearing you say, just to ground it for myself is to first become aware of what your needs and desires are, what's your truth, and then feel safe in that relationship to start speaking it.
- [28:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [28:29]
Alyson Abriga
And maybe that's seeing what it instead of being a victim in the experience. What's my role? And how can I interject letting them know. I would also like to share some here.
- [28:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And a part of what we sometimes have to shift is this. If we ask ourselves, can I do this? Then the reality is many of us are quote unquote long suffering. Right. We can like, I'll be fine, like they need me, but I'm going to be fine. So then I would say it's not just a matter of can you make it without being nourished, but do you choose to be nourished or not? Right. Which is different than like, am I strong enough? Because yeah, I could have like 10 one sided relationships and go through my life like that. And maybe many of us have, but I make a different choice for myself now.
- [29:21]
Alyson Abriga
Right? Yeah. And I think the first step is seeing it the second step and seeing it compassionately because we can see it and judge ourselves, like, oh, I'm doing the thing again, which further traps us. Or we can see it compassionately. Be like, wow, I learned that from childhood. It worked then it was a safety strategy and now I'm learning differently now. And so if somebody asks us to do something, we can pause before answering, giving ourselves space or take the vulnerable invitation to share more authentically in that moment in those safe relationships. But also I think helping remind people that relationships that are already established are harder to shift. So like being graceful and patient with ourselves versus newly established boundaries in relationships are easier.
- [30:03]
Dr. Tama Bryant
That's an important piece because some long term friendships or relationships can shift, but people aren't going to guess that like, you know, you had this internal awakening, but they don't know that. Right. And so sometimes as a culture we're very quick to just like cut people off. It's like New Year's resolution. Cut them. It's my birthday, cut them. Well, just cuts a new season. Cut them. I had a dream. So we're quick to cut sometimes.
- [30:32]
Alyson Abriga
This is important. I love that you're sharing this.
- [30:35]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And so the reality is, especially when it's been a pattern, this is how we operate. People may not one guess that you now have a problem with it and to have a sense of what you would like. And so for us to actually communicate that before eliminating. Because sometimes we'll say, well, they should know. Well, how would they know? It's been like that. Like, this has been the pattern.
- [30:58]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [30:59]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So to speak up and give people an opportunity to shift and also to commit to ourselves. In my new relationships, I want to show up differently from the beginning. So then that tone is set.
- [31:12]
Alyson Abriga
I love that you bring this up because I think a lot of people just start cutting people out and they really think it's about the person and they miss the pattern. They miss where they participated in it. And again, through compassion. Okay. I learned this in childhood. I'm learning differently. But what I hear you saying is setting up people to win. Let, like loving them to be like, this is how you love me. This is, I'm setting you up to win with me. And if they can't, I get it.
- [31:35]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [31:36]
Alyson Abriga
You can cut that off.
- [31:37]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And to know sometimes we attach a judgment to something that isn't necessarily bad or unhealthy. Sometimes it's just different, you know, like, we were raised differently. Our personalities are different. And so people may be doing it and expecting from you what they would do in that circumstance. And you're just different people.
- [31:56]
Alyson Abriga
That's right. Can you give an example of this? Because I think it'll help ground it for people.
- [32:00]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So this is like a dating example from my early years. So my growing up, both my parents, like, would go and speak and do, like I said, these retreats, like, very deeply loved each other, but also very much like, did their thing. And when I was in graduate school, I was dating this guy who. His father was a dentist. His mother worked as the receptionist for the dad's office. So they're together all day and then on the weekend he would go, the father would go play golf. Mother would bring the father lunch to the golf course. And if she went to get her nails done, unless they was gone more than an hour and a half, they. He and the dad and the brother would be calling to see where mom is. Right. So, you know, then he meets me. And it's one of those things where it's like having like a full life is thing would be like, I would be going to these poetry coffee houses and performing my poetry and all that. So it's not that having your thing is bad. And it's not that if your spouse is like your only and your best friend, it's not that it's bad. It's like it wasn't aligned. Right. So then like let's just be released and find people we're aligned with, knowing that neither way is like necessarily wrong or bad.
- [33:16]
Alyson Abriga
Yes. I think it's so important that you bring that up and that you can also choose differently because it was similar with my husband where there was more codependence in his family from Mexico. There was just like the women were very much the second example of your, your boyfriend. And I was much more independent and he had to reprogram. This can be love too. It doesn't mean that she's not interested.
- [33:41]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:42]
Alyson Abriga
And so that re patterning and that choosing that agency can also happen.
- [33:45]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Love that.
- [33:46]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's true.
- [33:48]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
That shifting of being able to see and like take our narrative off. Like we all have stories.
- [33:55]
Alyson Abriga
That's right.
- [33:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So like what's the story I'm telling myself about her life or her choices or what does that mean as it relates to me and as you said, like being open to a retelling of the story.
- [34:07]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. And I'm thinking about so much of this can play out in relationships, but also in business and in work and in teams. And you talk about performative love and how it's really tied to our self worth in earlier you mentioned how people are busy sometimes as I think as a safety strategy to hustle for proving their worth.
- [34:27]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [34:27]
Alyson Abriga
And I think a lot of the times we are afraid and this was pre pandemic because I think the pandemic really helped people slow down to feel what they were afraid to be confronted with if they weren't hustling for their worthiness, essentially. I know that those same patterns we're talking about how they show up with work, if we abandon ourselves, we can burn out. We don't set those, you know, for me speaking, I've definitely done that with my team. I definitely as a child was self appointed, the glue in my family, trying to make sure everyone was okay. And then I started doing that on my team and over performing and making sure that yeah, there's a lot of hyper vigilance that was going on. And so in your experience, what have you found supportive to help people really deprogram and decondition and performative love.
- [35:14]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. One of the things is recognizing and enjoying the winds. Right. Because when we're in that driven space, like it's never enough.
- [35:25]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [35:25]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Like we're on to the next. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm. And like, none of it is actually enjoyed. Right. And so, like, to cultivate joy and creating joy together and that starting to heal our sense of unworthiness requires that even, like just sitting still, I'm enough. Right. I have to do like 10 million things in order to, like, prove it. Because when that comes from the trauma wound, it never is enough.
- [35:58]
Alyson Abriga
That's right.
- [35:58]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. You can do all those things. And then sometimes, not only are we missing the love that's present, but also we can carry the weight or the baggage of other people's decision making. We can do that with our partners, we can do that with our children. This idea of, like, everything is my fault. Right? Because I'm responsible. I'm responsible for everything. And so then we don't celebrate our wins and we hold on to other people's failures or mistakes, giving ourselves permission to embrace the joy. And then also we have in behavioral psychology, this idea of acting as if. So instead of waiting till my heart shifts, let me just treat myself as if I loved myself, you know? What would a woman who loved herself do in this moment? Let me try that. See how that feels.
- [36:49]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, you're making it up. The fantasy. Anyways. Why not, when this keeps coming back? You play. I'm really. This word keeps standing out. I went to a personal development program, and I think the hardest day for me was a week long retreat. The hardest day was around play. And I think that there's so much healing and importance in play. And I'm wondering if you could speak to some of this because you've had some seeds in our conversation, but I'm hearing you.
- [37:17]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So play is, in a lot of ways, ease. Right. And it's healing the nervous system. We talked about that. Vigilance. Right. When I'm guarded and on and performing, sometimes I can do that out of like a survival strategy. Right. Or a safety strategy. But learning to breathe, allowing myself to laugh, allowing myself to play, it is reprogramming myself, which communicates to my essence, I'm okay. Right. And so again, it can be that. When did you lose the ability to play? And some of us never had it. We're born into very stressful situations. And even though I use the word reclaiming, you can still claim it for the first time. And so you never, like in your home, it just was not safe to play or play wasn't encouraged. You, like, either had to be vigilant for toxic People that were around or it was, like, just filled with chores, or you were like, you know, just have to always be on and on and on. And so to give myself ease is healing. Healing to my body, my mind, my heart, my spirit. And then play is. It requires a trusting of letting go. Right. So it's like, who do I play with? Right. It's like some people, they talk about, like, when people feel safe, you'll see more like the child version of them show up. And, like, isn't that glorious? Right. That's. That's what it's about that I so like, what people and in what places do I feel safe enough to let go.
- [39:01]
Alyson Abriga
I love this. Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like we're rewiring the nervous system to know that play is safe.
- [39:07]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [39:08]
Alyson Abriga
That it's okay to let go. And as you're talking, I'm just thinking of the play that I like.
- [39:13]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [39:13]
Alyson Abriga
I don't like board games. I love dance.
- [39:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Oh, me too.
- [39:16]
Alyson Abriga
And so, like, you know, like, we can also just have our own ways of playing. And it doesn't have to mean, like, I love all types of play. Yeah. So I'm just hearing this. This is permission and healing for me.
- [39:27]
Dr. Tama Bryant
As you're speaking, some ways of play you'll already know. Like, we both are like, oh, we love dancing. And then some plays may be things you've never tried before. So, like, being open to explore. Let me see. Maybe it will be and maybe it won't. But I, again, honor my truth. Like, was it stressful for me or was it enjoyable?
- [39:46]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. Yeah. And not to make it wrong if it's like, yeah, just find your form of play. And I think that this coping mechanism is hard to heal because we're so validated through the success that sometimes can come from the wound.
- [39:59]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [40:00]
Alyson Abriga
And so just for people who learn to earn love through success through, you know, and that approval that outsource validation, I'm just thinking they're hearing a podcast like this, they're like, yeah, that's me. And one of the things that has really helped me unwind this is in the spiritual dimension, waking up to who I am beyond any patterns of looking for love, attention, and approval in the world, knowing that that may be a part of me, it's not the whole of me, and really come home to myself. And I know you speak about this, so let's take it to more of the spiritual level, really coming home to ourselves to embody our inherent worth.
- [40:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So it is recognizing as a sacred being, I'M already enough. It's not the degrees that make me enough or the resume that makes me enough or who I'm affiliated with or who my network is. It's not even popularity. It's like just in and of myself, I'm sacred, and each person has that. Then what I start to do to heal. Is a friend of mine, Asia, who's a poet, has this line in the poem where she says, who lied to you? Right. And I love that because it's like the parts of me that don't feel sacred or enough are based in a lie.
- [41:17]
Alyson Abriga
That's right.
- [41:17]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So identify the lie and say, I am actively working to reject the lie of my unworthiness.
- [41:25]
Podcast Announcer
Oh, I love that.
- [41:27]
Alyson Abriga
I am actively working to reject the lie of my unworthiness.
- [41:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [41:32]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [41:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. The truth is, I am worthy on the days I believe it and the days I don't. And no matter who agrees I already am, I'm still worthy.
- [41:40]
Alyson Abriga
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Two practices that have helped me know that more deeply are inquiry, questioning my thinking. Thinking and just meditation. Just being.
- [41:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [41:49]
Alyson Abriga
I think of the Enneagram as who we are, not. It's our personality, not who we are. And I type as a three. An achiever, helper. So I like to achieve things and help people do the same. And I really got to sit with, who am I when I'm not achieving? And I know that you talked about identity and so really, deeply inquiring into who was I taught that I am and what's the truth of that? Yeah. Who am I when I'm not thinking myself into existence.
- [42:19]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So a part of it. I would encourage people to try morning rituals. Right. To not start your day running and taking care of everybody, even your household. Right. So that requires, like, waking up before I have to get up so that I have a way to start my day sacredly. And as we said with, like, the play, what's sacred to you and what's sacred to someone else may be different, but if I can wake up early enough to walk in nature or sit in nature or to meditate or to listen to a podcast or listen to. I like for people to pick, like, a theme song. What's the song that, like, just resonates and feels like you for this season, because the song will change. But to make a commitment of, I'm going to wake up before I have to get going, and I'm going to nourish my soul. So then what are the things that feed your soul? And that's the way I start my day. So then I'm not running on empty, and then I'm not building resentment. Right. Instead, I'm showing up for my overflow.
- [43:23]
Alyson Abriga
I love that. I've been coming back to my morning practice, which I like the variety within it. So sometimes I'll do breath work. A lot of the times meditate. I'm wondering if I should incorporate some dance after talking with you, more of that play.
- [43:37]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's so wonderful.
- [43:39]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [43:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Because then it's. You're embodied. Like you're in yourself. You're aware. And the way it shows up, the movements will be different. Some mornings, like just slow and, you know, and some more ready to go.
- [43:51]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. Even this morning I've been trying to get out with like natural sunlight. I took our questions out in the sunlight. I was like, okay, I can. I can merge. I did a meditation and then was like, so more nature, more connection with ourselves, paying attention and then honoring that, even if it's just that sacred pause.
- [44:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And I will say being intentional about spending my time with people who make me feel sacred. Right. Because sometimes it's hard to heal it. If we're around people who don't treat us sacredly, then that reinforces like, I gotta prove it or contort myself or convince or chase, you're making me think.
- [44:26]
Alyson Abriga
It'S kind of like an addiction. So then it's like, okay, can I get out of the bar for a little while? What are the patterns and people or dynamics that cultivate that lie? And do I need to pause from.
- [44:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Those to rebuild a deeper truth and knowing 100%? Because sometimes it's not just like the one person who lied when I was 10, but the person I'm calling a best friend or partner is promoting the lie of my unworthiness. So I gotta press pause on that.
- [44:54]
Alyson Abriga
Take space from that and really do projection work. Because usually it's not the current relationship. It usually goes back to those origin, family, parent dynamics and the misunderstandings and to do self forgiveness and really reclaim.
- [45:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [45:07]
Alyson Abriga
What's true.
- [45:08]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, what's true. And to know that sometimes the lie, the earlier lie affected my choices. So then I chose people who would agree with the lie.
- [45:19]
Alyson Abriga
Let's talk about that.
- [45:21]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's, you know, it's familiar.
- [45:23]
Alyson Abriga
Yes.
- [45:23]
Dr. Tama Bryant
You grew up having to convince or to fight for attention. And then as we're older, what can be the most attractive are the people not wanting us. Right?
- [45:33]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, because it's familiar.
- [45:34]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Oh, yeah. But also, instead of just feeling like, insecure, you can have an Overconfidence of I know I can win them over. Like, I've done this many times. I'm gonna figure them out and do what I need to do and show up in this way instead of questioning or not believing the people who already see your worthiness. Right. And say, we'll call that boring.
- [45:59]
Alyson Abriga
That's a good one. Yes.
- [46:00]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Like, oh, so boring.
- [46:01]
Alyson Abriga
I'm not attracted because then my trauma wound isn't connected.
- [46:04]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I don't have to do anything. Yeah. What's wrong with them? But they just like me.
- [46:08]
Alyson Abriga
I think this is so important because if we haven't done the healing work and we just look to remove ourselves, kind of like we were talking earlier, when people just say, I'm cutting you out, then those people that are healthy are going to feel boring. And so when we do the work to heal at the root, it naturally shifts in our life.
- [46:24]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [46:24]
Alyson Abriga
And if we don't, we can then keep people and patterns and dynamics that are validating an insecurity or a lie.
- [46:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. And so that's why it's also good to take healing time of like, I call it pulling the wisdom out of my wounds. Right. So these were hurtful experiences and I don't want to keep repeating them. So what do I need to shift? What do I see not just in them, but in me.
- [46:50]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. Can you share it with as a story to ground that whether yours or a client you've worked with?
- [46:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. An example would be people who have consistently dated persons who were emotionally unavailable. And I'm going to say in particular a client who consistently is with married men, that feels safe. It also feels chosen because, like, even though they're still with their wife, that somehow, like, I'm the special one. Right. I'm the adored one, that they're there out of obligation, but they choose me. Right. So this like, false sense that you are being promoted or elevated, but also feeling the not enoughness that people come in briefly and then leave, it doesn't require like that deep emotional connection, which for some people can be scary. Right. And so then it becomes. I'll say for the client, I'm speaking of what need to happen for a relationship where you are first to feel safe. Right. And so then often it's healing those earlier wounds. And then I will say on the flip side, because I've worked with a number of clients. I've worked with men who. It could be a men or women. But in this, this example, men who have consistently been unfaithful with their spouses and will say it's like the adrenaline rush and the esteem boosting. Right. Because your partner, like, sees all of you, right. Sees the part you didn't win in, the parts that aren't so shiny. But if I just, like, go and pick up people at the club and I look fancy, then they affirm that and adore that. So it's like, I miss the unadulterated adoration, like, I'm amazing. So then eventually what happens is, like, that wears off because anyone who gets to know you more is going to see you more. And when they see you more, then, like, that's going to take off the magic. So now you got to go find another one.
- [48:57]
Alyson Abriga
Unsustainable.
- [48:58]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yes. Because at the root, again, like, how you're feeling about yourself.
- [49:05]
Alyson Abriga
That's right. And it's almost like it's creating experiences that reinforce the lie that you are not worthy and that without going to the root, you're just going to keep recreating those. And also that pain and suffering can. Can be motivators to heal, to actually look within. And so for people, because we talked about self betrayal, now we're talking about betrayal in relationship. What would you say to somebody that has been betrayed and they want to heal without carrying that heavy burden?
- [49:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, it would be to start with, what are the lies that the unfaithfulness told you about yourself? Right. And we as a culture, like, reinforce those lies of, like, oh, you must have not kept yourself up. You weren't cute enough. Right. These messages are so ridiculous of like, yeah, you didn't know enough tricks.
- [49:55]
Podcast Announcer
You didn't know.
- [49:56]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, like all the, all the things, all. Or, you know, one will be the lie that I should have kept my opinions to myself. Right. Because the notion of, like, you're not supposed to, like, having opinions is nagging. Right. So you, because you nag, they went to a soft place to land someone who's always pleasant, as if it's their fault.
- [50:16]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. Yeah.
- [50:17]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So it is. You know, we were talking about, like, the story we tell ourselves. It's the illusion of control. If I believe I can pinpoint, quote, unquote, what I did wrong, as long as now, like, I always have my hair done or always have my makeup on, like, it will never happen to me again. I think that's why so many people were, like, outraged when the story came out about Beyonce. They were like, if Beyonce, what hope do we have? Right? So it's like disrupting the lie. And so when I do that, to know there are multiple reasons for some people, some People I've worked with just have never been faithful their whole lives and don't know it's possible and don't know if they even want to. So I had nothing to do. Like they could have married anyone or been with anybody and this was going to be the behavior. So to give ourselves room to know. There are parts of my life that I co create and there are some things that come into my life that are not invited by me.
- [51:18]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. So letting go of some. Yes. Looking at. In some situations, did I participate in this dynamic? And if I didn't participate in creating it, then did I participate in maintaining it? And if so, then can I choose differently? I forget sometimes that people really think it's about appearance and surface level things and that we know that the root of it is within. And so a lot of people that are looking for the outside in, it's just, it's only a matter of time till we realize it's deeper.
- [51:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. And it's unfortunate because people promote those messages not just like the unfaithful partner who's looking for a narrative, but like in our society, like those messages get put on repeat.
- [52:03]
Alyson Abriga
I know.
- [52:04]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And then I should also say another one that of course comes up is around ageism and particularly for women. Right. Is this idea that the older you are, the less attractive you are. So then your value diminishes somehow.
- [52:17]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. I want to bring my mom back on the podcast. She's. She's more in love at 75, long silver hair, like traveling the world. I'm like, we get to have more stories of. Of everybody, but particularly women. Just like life keeps getting better. Right.
- [52:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It's.
- [52:33]
Alyson Abriga
So we need more stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:36]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Again, like disrupting the light. That's right. And I love how people have been talking about, let's not just highlight people who are like single and dissatisfied, but people are single and happy. Right?
- [52:48]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [52:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And there are people who are married and happy and people who are married and miserable. Let's like leave room for. Because the reality is like our status is not like the point. Right. Like that inside job and what's happening in the dynamic is. Is really going to be the fruit.
- [53:09]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, yeah. 100. We need more examples and stories like this. And one thing I really appreciate about your work and I watched your TEDx talk where you're such a leading voice in decolonizing psychology. So important. I was sharing with you how in undergrad I knew it wasn't just from the mind. We have to understand the context. Because I made up my Own major with psychology, religious studies, sociology. It wasn't quite it. I feel like you've got it. But in I only had a few options in undergrad. Talk to us about what decolonizing psychology is why it's so important for people that haven't watched your TEDx talk.
- [53:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. So a criticism of psychology is an overemphasis on the individual cognitions and ignoring of context and history. We are shaped by multiple things. There's social psychology, there's political psychology, there's gender studies. So all of the different aspects of us shape us. And so it is inaccurate to think that the reason someone is struggling is just they have unhealthy cognitions.
- [54:15]
Alyson Abriga
Right.
- [54:15]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So if you just shift the way you think, everything is going to shift. And yes, thoughts can be powerful and the way we think is important. And it is victim blaming to convince people that the only reason you have difficulties is because you're not thinking positive thoughts. Yeah, it's just, you know, an example would be, you know, women struggling with body image. It's not just like women randomly woke up and decided to, like, hate their bodies. Right. Like, we are bombarded with all of these messages about, like, what is beautiful and what is not. What does the leading lady look like, who is the rejected one even on these apps. Right. Who is attended to and who is ignored. Then to say to that girl or woman you just should think better about, you just need to love those thighs. You just need to.
- [55:05]
Alyson Abriga
Right?
- [55:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And it's like, yes, like, ultimately, I have to get to a place of loving myself, but I also give myself one grace and compassion for the lies I've been told that made it hard for me to see my own beauty. I also recognize that a lot of the people around me who didn't choose me have been indoctrinated by those same systems. So then are not able to see me and appreciate me and then, you know, go about the journey of healing my view of myself.
- [55:37]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, yeah. I love that you bring in this piece in the context because I love mindset work. I love even somatic work, you know, and it's more than both of those things. It's the culture, the environment that we were raised in. It's. It's all of it. It's a holistic way to heal.
- [55:54]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, it is. And what's amazing is when you start to acknowledge those things, some people will say, well, that sounds political and I don't want to be political. It's like our whole lives are political. The DSM is political. The mental health process so it's like that some political perspectives you don't want to see or acknowledge, which is also a political stance. Right. Is to say, pull yourself up from your bootstraps. Right? Yes, that. I believe that if people just think positively about themselves, things will work out. It's like, come on.
- [56:31]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah, we need to go a little deeper. And I think that you're inviting that and I love that. And I love this quote that you said in your TEDx talk. One of yours was, when did you stop singing? Like, that's really stayed with me because you talk about play also. And I'm thinking animals play, children play. When did I stop playing? When did I stop singing?
- [56:50]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [56:51]
Alyson Abriga
And that, that can be also an indicator of when trauma came into my.
- [56:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Life to look at with solutions, focused therapy. There are things we know that we do when we're our best, when we're thriving. And sometimes the stress and trauma of life takes us, disconnects us, takes us on a detour so we're no longer doing the things that actually nourish us. And so as you're naming, to notice when that stopped and to reclaim those practices of, yeah, I used to like, meditate in the mornings or I used to go to brunch with my girlfriends before I got like, so busy I didn't have time for that. Right. So to re. Institute the things that nourish us. And the key part, don't wait until I break down to do them. Right. But it's like I exhaust myself and we'll say like, oh, I'm so drained now. I get. Get to like go have a massage. Which massage is wonderful, but it also can't be an aftermath to a neglected life. Right. So what's my consistent practice going to be of honoring myself? And I love part of it with the holistic, you can talk about decolonizing or decolonial psychology. We also can think on the flip side, indigenizing psychology. And so what are those indigenous practices like, like singing or arts or spirituality, moving our bodies, dancing the ways that we know to heal.
- [58:18]
Alyson Abriga
I mean, almost every culture around the world from the beginning of time, has had music and arts and community.
- [58:24]
Dr. Tama Bryant
And so wonderful. Right? It's healing.
- [58:26]
Alyson Abriga
It's an.
- [58:27]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Our cultures are healing, community, art, spirituality, our storytelling is healing. And so to do the things we have access to so that we can be whole.
- [58:41]
Alyson Abriga
And for somebody that's listening to this, who's going through a hard time, that has trauma, what would you say to them? What do you feel like is really important? Because we said A lot already. But is there anything else that feels important to say to people so that they can really let it land?
- [58:56]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. So I would say, along the standpoint of storytelling or narrative therapy, to look at the story I'm telling myself, and it may be the story the offender or perpetrator told me as well, so that I'm not blaming or shaming myself, but I'm also not remaining in a place of powerlessness. So in the moments of violation, we were powerless to stop whatever someone did or group of people did. But I get to say in this present moment, I do have agency and I do have voice. So what do I choose to say about myself, and what do I choose to do to reclaim my sovereignty, to reclaim my power? And I like to say people may have written on the pages of my life, but now I have the pen. Right. So it's like, now I can still write a beautiful story with this life.
- [59:55]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. Yeah. I love that message. It's so empowering just to remind people, especially that have seemingly had that power taken away to give it back, that that agency. That's been such a theme for today.
- [60:06]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [60:06]
Alyson Abriga
And I have kind of a wild question. Not wild, but maybe off the. Off the cusp. Just in closing, I know you're so involved with psychology and the field and the movement of where we're heading, so thank you for all of your contribution. And I'm curious your thoughts around AI and just what either you hope or you're concerned about. I personally would love to find a way to not have a job, you know, to make healing scalable and accessible through an iPhone or through EMDR and mapping. I think it's somehow possible if we really focus on it. And I know there are also concerns people have. I'm just curious where you're at around this conversation.
- [60:45]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So I will give, like, a positive to it and then, like, a negative.
- [60:51]
Alyson Abriga
Sure.
- [60:52]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So a positive. I had a client who was dealing with major depression, and one of the times she was, like, in a very deep, difficult place. One of the things that was, like, very helpful for her to have, like, this breakthrough was she told AI some facts about herself and asked AI to write her life story. Oh, my goodness. They wrote this incredible story. It was using her names, things that were important to her and saying, like, that she created this nonprofit and she's, like, traveling and all these things that felt to her, like, possible. So it pushed her out of, like, that hopelessness or despair to see, like, how could my story turn out.
- [61:29]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah.
- [61:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So I think, like, that's beautiful. And it worked. It was helpful. A challenge is unregulated and we've seen that it's faulty and not culturally attuned. It's, you know, manualistic. Right. And so that can be very dangerous. Yeah. If you have a machine who's listen just to some information and now like guiding people, it's not a, a sound process. So I would say where I see it going or what could be helpful. AI interventions that augment the therapeutic process, like where it's like something very specific like creating your story. You know, I've seen the one where they have little kids say what they want to be when they grow up and then they see the image of themselves like in the outfit of whatever that fireman or whatever. The kids are like excited and kind of hold on to like that, like that could be my future. So I think it could be used in beautiful ways. But I think to release the therapeutic process to a machine could be quite.
- [62:36]
Alyson Abriga
At this phase for sure. Yeah. And it sounds like also how it's used and how it's programmed is really important and maybe we'll have some regulation around it. I just want to say thank you for who you be and how you show up in the world. It is such a pleasure to know you and I know my audience is going to want to stay connected. Talk to us about what you're up to. How do they stay connected?
- [62:55]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Absolutely. So my latest book is Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship with yourself and those you love. It's available in hardback digital and audiobook. Before that I recommend Homecoming, which is for healing from trauma. And Homecoming has a workbook called Reclaim yourself. My podcast is called the Homecoming podcast with Dr. Tama and my website is Dr. Tama.com and I invite those who are in social media to follow me under Dr. Tama.
- [63:28]
Alyson Abriga
Yeah. And if you were inspired by any of this conversation, feel free to share it on social tag us. I'll put all the links to your work here below the show notes. Thank you for being here. What a gift you are in the world.
- [63:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Thank you for having me and for holding this space.
- [63:42]
Alyson Abriga
Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself. It truly does make a difference. And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost free way to support us is by following us. It does help us grow and we are so grateful. Leave a review on Apple or Spotify. Submit a screenshot of that and upload it to Alysonabriga.com as a thank you gift. We will be sending you one of the most powerful tools that you can use on any area of your life.
- [64:08]
Podcast Announcer
To help you tap into your full potential so that you don't let fear hold you back from really stepping into your dreams.
- [64:14]
Alyson Abriga
I have so much more magic I want to share with you, and I cannot wait to do that soon. But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world. Sa.