BONUS: What's New With RFK Jr.?

Summary

Maintenance Phase: BONUS Episode Summary — "What's New With RFK Jr.?"

Release Date: December 20, 2024
Hosts: Aubrey Gordon & Michael Hobbes

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Introduction

In this bonus episode of Maintenance Phase, hosts Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes delve deep into the ongoing saga of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.), following his nomination as the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) by Donald Trump on November 14, 2024. The episode aims to unpack the myriad controversies, political maneuvers, and personal scandals surrounding RFK Jr., providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of why this figure remains a persistent topic of discussion in American politics.

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RFK Jr.'s Nomination as HHS Secretary

The episode kicks off with the nomination announcement of RFK Jr. by Donald Trump, setting the stage for a series of unexpected political dynamics and alliances.

• Michael Hobbs (00:11): Expresses frustration about RFK Jr.'s prominence, stating, "I wanna make this about me."

• Aubrey Gordon (01:12): Highlights the significance of the nomination, mentioning, "On November 14, 2024, Donald Trump officially announced RFK Jr. as his nominee for HHS secretary."

The nomination triggered a flurry of reactions from various political figures and commentators, further complicating the political landscape.

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Support and Criticism from Various Figures

RFK Jr.'s nomination garnered both support and criticism from unexpected quarters, illustrating the polarized views surrounding his appointment.

• Aubrey Gordon (02:07): Notes Michael Pollan's initial support through a tweet, later clarifying Pollan's stance: "Pollan has since clarified that he's not endorsing RFK Jr."

• Michael Hobbs (03:04): Points out RFK Jr.'s involvement in promoting anti-vaccine beliefs, leading to public outcry: "He's also being correctly accused of promoting anti-vax beliefs. Children have died of measles outbreaks that he has been connected to."

Additional support came from figures like Jared Polis, the Democratic governor of Colorado, who expressed excitement about RFK Jr.'s nomination (03:16).

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RFK Jr.'s Stated Policies and Controversies

RFK Jr. has outlined a series of policies aimed at dismantling what he perceives as the FDA's suppression of alternative health practices. However, many of these policies have been met with skepticism and criticism.

• RFK Jr.'s Twitter Statement (04:33): "FDA's war on public health is about to end..." He lists various treatments and supplements he aims to promote, including raw milk and hyperbaric therapies.

• Aubrey Gordon (05:48): Criticizes the feasibility and safety of RFK Jr.'s proposed policies, stating, "He is against industry involvement in health care, he's against regulated industry involvement."

The hosts dissect the practicality of these policies, emphasizing the challenges RFK Jr. would face in implementing such changes, especially given the need for congressional action and regulatory approvals (08:20).

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Ballot Access Issues in Presidential Campaign

RFK Jr.'s independent presidential campaign has been fraught with logistical hurdles, particularly concerning ballot access across all 50 states.

• Michael Hobbs (14:50): Discusses the complexity of getting on the ballot as an independent, highlighting the varying signature requirements: "In some states you have to get like 42,000 signatures on a petition."

• Aubrey Gordon (16:08): Mentions staffing issues and the involvement of controversial figures like Nick Branagh and Trent Pool, both of whom have faced allegations of misconduct (16:36).

The campaign's struggles with ballot access have led to legal challenges, resulting in RFK Jr. being removed from the ballot in states like Arizona due to potential coordination violations with Super PACs (25:50).

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Allegations and Personal Scandals

Beyond political controversies, RFK Jr.'s personal life has been marred by serious allegations, including sexual misconduct and questionable behavior.

• Sexual Assault Allegations (45:12): The hosts discuss incidents involving RFK Jr. and a 23-year-old babysitter, detailing unwanted physical advances and alleged harassment (46:28).

• Personal Scandals (40:32 - 48:12): RFK Jr.'s personal life includes claims of multiple affairs, leading to a strained marriage and tragic consequences, such as his wife's suicide.

• Brainworm Claim (05:11 - 07:00): RFK Jr. alleges having a parasite that affected his brain, which the hosts critique as exaggerated and misleading, especially given the context of a legal battle over child support (05:11).

These personal scandals paint a portrait of RFK Jr. as not only a contentious political figure but also one with a troubled personal history.

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Media Interaction and Public Relations

RFK Jr.'s interactions with the media have been strategic yet often backfire, further complicating his public image.

• Defamation Claims (30:14): RFK Jr. accuses the White House of colluding with social media platforms to censor him, claiming significant follower losses on Instagram (30:14).

• Public Relations Blunders (50:00 - 55:50): Stories such as RFK Jr. placing a dead bear in Central Park and making racially insensitive jokes have been met with public backlash and ridicule from both the hosts and the audience.

• Vanity Fair Feature (16:36 - 35:14): An in-depth Vanity Fair article uncovers various misconducts within RFK Jr.'s campaign team, including allegations against key staff members, further tarnishing his reputation.

These interactions underscore RFK Jr.'s precarious standing in the media, where attempts to control his narrative often lead to increased scrutiny and negative perception.

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Conclusion

The Maintenance Phase hosts conclude the episode by reflecting on RFK Jr.'s enduring presence in American politics, despite numerous setbacks and controversies. They emphasize the destructive impact of his actions, both politically and personally, and express a strong desire to move past his narrative.

• Aubrey Gordon (69:43): Summarizes the allure of the Kennedy name juxtaposed with RFK Jr.'s personal failings: "The Kennedy name, the fantasy and celebrity of it, is its own shield, blinding people to the fine details of Kennedy's actual beliefs and thereby making him an appealing and easy vessel for discontent with Biden and Trump."

• Michael Hobbs (71:30): Critiques the broader implications of RFK Jr.'s influence, highlighting the damage left in his wake: "You've got this wake of damage behind him and yet he himself has only become wealthier, more prominent."

The hosts advocate for greater public awareness and engagement to counteract the influence of figures like RFK Jr., urging listeners to remain vigilant against the spread of misinformation and the allure of baseless political populism.

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Notable Quotes

• Michael Hobbs (00:53): "Supplements because otherwise this administration is going to put us in jail."

• Aubrey Gordon (04:05): "He's not into it. He's also against the suppression of nutraceuticals."

• Michael Hobbs (07:24): "He can sort of shape the kinds of clinical trials that are required of drug companies."

• Aubrey Gordon (10:11): "You can call the Capitol switchboard directly and tell them whether or not you think RFK Jr. Should be confirmed."

• Michael Hobbs (12:10): "We will have to talk about him for the rest of our lives until we die of measles, which I think is about a 50, 50 chance at this."

• Aubrey Gordon (16:56): "Nick Branagh... has faced allegations of misconduct."

• Michael Hobbs (31:09): "800,000 followers isn't even that many followers."

• Aubrey Gordon (40:34): "Michael, I feel like I have a broad sense of what we're in for, but I have generally, like, not done a deep dive into the RFK Jr updates."

• Michael Hobbs (69:43): "The Kennedy name... is its own shield, blinding people to the fine details of Kennedy's actual beliefs."

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Content Warnings

This episode contains discussions of:

• Domestic Violence
• Sexual Assault
• Suicide
• Animal Cruelty

Listener discretion is advised.

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Final Thoughts

Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes provide an unflinching examination of RFK Jr., blending factual reporting with sharp commentary. Their analysis paints a comprehensive picture of a complex and controversial figure whose actions continue to influence American political discourse. For those unfamiliar with the episode, this summary offers a clear and detailed overview of the key points, ensuring a thorough understanding of the multifaceted issues surrounding RFK Jr.'s public and private life.

Transcript

[Michael Hobbs]

You know, my first thought when I was, like, looking at the election results, I was like, oh, we're gonna have to keep talking about this fucking guy for the next four years.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, you're correct.

[Michael Hobbs]

I was like, I wanna make this about me.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The guy who works from home.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know the literal, luckiest person who's, like, literally living his dream as a journalist has to talk about obnoxious paintball.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I absolutely had a conversation last night with a family friend who was fucking fluoride pilled. And I was like, I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't do it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Well, here we are, listeners. We love you. We miss you.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Are you tagging us in? What are we?

[Michael Hobbs]

I guess. I mean, are we even tagging for this? I don't know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I don't really know what the approach is.

[Michael Hobbs]

I mean, I guess we should just say welcome to Maintenance Phase, the podcast that will eventually start recommending raw milk and stuff, because otherwise this. This administration is going to put us in jail.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The Onion bought infowars, but we bought the supplement business. Surprise. Get your brain force from us.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm in so many group chats where people keep posting links and I just keep replying with, we live in hell. I don't know what else to say. I don't even click on the links anymore. I'm just like, we live in hell.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm Aubrey Gordon.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm Michael Hobbs. Let's get this over with.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Let's. We're here for reasons that we don't want to be. On November 14, 2024, Donald Trump officially announced RFK Jr. As his nominee for HHS secretary. We did a follow up on RFK junior when we thought he was sort of riding off into the sunset and this was gonna be the last time we had to talk to him. It's so painful to think in those terms.

[Michael Hobbs]

Sweet Aubrey. Sweet Michael.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We are releasing that bonus episode onto the main feed today, and before we get into that, we're gonna talk a little bit about what has happened since RFK jr's nomination and about how folks in the US can impact this nomination. So the announcement of RFK nomination leads to a bunch of really weird politics, makes for strange bedfellows sort of moments.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

God. And a lot of those feel to me, as someone who's been making this show with you for several years now, like we're getting the band back together.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, I know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

On November 19, Michael Pollan tweets a link to. To a piece from the American conservative called they're lying about RFK Jr.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, what? I didn't even know this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes, Pollan has since clarified that he's not endorsing RFK Jr. But like, oh, no, come on, man. Regardless of whether or not he feels like that was technically an endorsement, he did tweet out something that ostensibly reads as strong support, right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Or at least like, he's being falsely accused of things, which is not the thing to focus on right now. He's also being correctly accused of, like, promoting anti vax beliefs. Children have died of measles outbreaks that he has been connected to. So, like, that's the stuff that people are upset about.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's riding so hard right now on like, RTs do not equal endorsements. In his bio where you're just like.

[Michael Hobbs]

Come on man, why is everyone so dumb? Why is everything so dumb all the time?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Jared Paulus, the Democratic governor of Colorado, tweeted his excitement about RFK Jr. As HHS Secretary.

[Michael Hobbs]

We live in hell. I'm just going to keep saying it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

On November, September 19th, Pete Evans got on Telegram to announce that his new cookbook, Healthy Food for Healthy Kids, is being published by RFK JR's Children's Health Defense Organization. This is getting billed as they're writing a book together, like their co authors.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's not quite it. It's being published by an organization that RFK Jr. Is the board chair and founder of.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm sure the actual recipes are like, we'd like to feed your children a bow of the measles virus. Just a large green bowl of goop, just entirely consisting of viruses suspended in.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Pure vitamin A. Yeah. So that's what I wanted to do next is talk through what RFK Jr has specifically said he's going to do in office as HHS secretary. Right. One of the clearest sort of mission statements that we've gotten from RFK Jr came to us, of course, via Twitter in a tweet on October 25, 2024, he wrote the following.

[Michael Hobbs]

He says FDA's war on public health is about to end. This includes its aggressive suppression of psychedelics, peptides, stem cells, raw milk, hyperbaric therapies, chelating compounds, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, vitamins, clean foods, sunshine, exercise, nutraceuticals, and anything else that advances human health and can't be patented by pharma. Pharma capitalized. If you work at the FDA and are part of this corrupt system, I have two messages for you. One, preserve your records. And two, pack Your bags. Well, if they're. If they're leaving, Robert, what's the point of preserving their records?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Hey, future staff, I fucking hate you.

[Michael Hobbs]

But please help me achieve my goals.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Also, I'm sick and tired of you suppressing sunshine.

[Michael Hobbs]

I love that. It's just a list of things which are not suppressed. Yeah, again, hydroxychloid, chloroquine and ivermectin have been extensively studied and the results indicate that they don't work for Covid. Vitamins are something your doctor has fucking told you about. Go out and get exercise and get some sunshine. Completely establishment advice from like every public health agency. It's like, this is just things that are not suppressed and then it's mixed in with things like raw milk where it's like, yeah, it's actually good to like kill bacteria.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You don't want TB milk. You're not into it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's also against the suppression of nutraceuticals. Nutraceutical is a fucking marketing term.

[Michael Hobbs]

And that's a huge benefit to corporate interest too, that you're basically going to allow companies to market their products with whatever like, oh, this will like cure cancer and then they can sell it at fucking Whole Foods or whatever.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. He's not against industry involvement in health care, he's against regulated industry involvement.

[Michael Hobbs]

Exactly, exactly.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right? Yeah. He keeps using the language of like, I'm going to stand up to these industries and I'm going to stand up to blah, blah, blah.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And you're like, no, you're going to open the door for them and show them in.

[Michael Hobbs]

You want it to be even easier to lie to us in America. Like, I don't get enough scam phone calls, you want me to get more?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I mean, I think this is very similar to what he says and has said about vaccines. Right? Yeah. He keeps saying he just wants the data.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But safety data and long term research are publicly available and have been for a really long time.

[Michael Hobbs]

The funniest possible outcome of this would be that he takes charge and he calls a press conference and he's like, you know, we looked into it and Foushee was actually correct.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, I told you I just wanted the information. Now I have the information.

[Michael Hobbs]

Turns out everyone's trying their hardest and now we'll move on on that basis.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So essentially, on the vaccine front, there are a couple of things that he can do around vaccines. It's pretty unheard of to revoke the approval of a drug or a, you know, vaccine, and that would be exceedingly Difficult since so many states have state level mandates for children to be vaccinated.

[Michael Hobbs]

Good, good, good.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He can sort of shape the kinds of clinical trials that are required of drug companies. He can slow down the review of those trials and the approval processes. Right. There's stuff that he can do to just sort of gum up the works.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But in terms of like broad mandates that like no one's getting a vaccine, like that kind of stuff is much, much, much trickier to pull off. And a lot of it doesn't live at the federal level.

[Michael Hobbs]

Although a friend of mine is a public high school teacher in Seattle and had his first student with pertussis this year, which is the P in the D TAP vaccine. But now people are not getting the vaccine. So we're getting whooping cough or we're making whooping cough. Great again.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He has also said that he wants to defluoridate all U.S. water supplies. This is a future mega episode for us.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, I know you've been working this for months.

[Aubrey Gordon]

His views on this counter the CDC's own long standing recommendation which lauds water fluoridation as one of the greatest public health victories of the 20th century. Yes, he could issue recommendations and like suggest to local governments that they should defluoridate, but he doesn't actually have the power to flip a switch. Right. And actually defluorinate water. What would need to happen is that Congress would have to ban fluoride nationwide or the EPA would have to put fluoride on a dangerous chemicals list. Neither of those are in his control.

[Michael Hobbs]

Solely, but they are in control of the people who run all three branches of government and the epa.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He keeps saying like on day one we're going to defluorinate the. And it's like, no, you're not. You can't do that.

[Michael Hobbs]

It'll be like day three or four. Don't worry everybody.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Many of the changes that we've talked about here would require a process called rulemaking. In the US changing federal rules, which are like the guidelines on how to implement the law, requires a lot of public disclosure and public comment. So there will be these long like 30 or 90 day public comment periods that are opportunities to publicly push back, to organize and to arm staff within those agencies with some additional reasons that that X, Y or Z is a bad idea or a great idea or whatever. I would argue that is where a ton of stuff is going to happen at hhs. So I, I think all of us just got to get better at paying attention to federal rulemaking and being Prepared to, like, submit, comment on stuff and all of that. Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I want to talk a little bit about what happens next, where we go from here.

[Michael Hobbs]

Mike and Arbery lose their minds slowly and just become just a series of vowels.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You think this, what we've been recording today has been slow? In order to be confir as HHS Secretary, RFK Jr has to be confirmed by the Senate. If you are in the US you actually can impact this process. You can call the Capitol switchboard directly and tell them whether or not you think RFK Jr. Should be confirmed. That phone number is 202-224-3121. This is the thing that people tell you to do a lot. The reason that they tell you to do it a lot is that it really matters. Yeah, it's easy to get fatalistic about this kind of stuff, but it's important to remember that this is not actually a done deal.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

When you call the Capitol switchboard, when you get in touch with your senator, there is a staffer who is literally sitting there with a tally sheet for how many calls they get in favor and how many calls they get a post. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

And there's also things like, you know, giving money, and there's also local things that you can do. I mean, I think. I think everybody's really worried that everyone's so fatigued from the previous Trump administration that no one's going to engage. I try not to make predictions as part of my journalism career. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I think complacency is one of the ways that authoritarian regimes flourish, is when everybody gets tired. And I also get it if people just really can't fucking do it at this point. But if you are somebody with the ability or with the finances or with the time or whatever, it's really important to engage to the extent that you can.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that's what's happened since we recorded this bonus episode, like, two weeks ago. Will now sound unbearably lighthearted.

[Michael Hobbs]

God, compared to where we are and also so naive. We're like, maybe we'll never have to talk about this guy again. But it's like, nope.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Lol. Nope.

[Michael Hobbs]

We will have to talk about him for the rest of our lives until we die of measles, which I think is about a 50, 50 chance at this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Hi, everybody, and welcome to Maintenance Phase, the podcast where for Halloween, we're zombies, but we only eat brain's worms.

[Michael Hobbs]

That had so much potential, Aubrey. And then it just. It just didn't land.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That'S me booing myself.

[Michael Hobbs]

Brains, worms.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm not recording here to disappoint you.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm Michael Hobbs, here specifically to disappoint you.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Michael, I feel like I have a broad sense of what we're in for, but I have generally, like, not done a deep dive into the RFK Jr updates. What I'm aware of involves animal carcasses.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dude.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Sexual assault allegations.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And a suspended New York magazine reporter.

[Michael Hobbs]

The body count, both animal and human, of this episode is deranged and HHS secretary rumors. Every time we talk about him, I'm like, thank God we never have to talk about this fucking guy again. But this is gonna be the rest of our lives. So content warning. There's some domestic violence stuff, there's some sexual assault stuff, and there's some suicide stuff in this episode. We apologize for the kind of person that RFK Jr. Is and associates with boy, Michael.

[Aubrey Gordon]

If there's one thing I've learned in therapy, you gotta stop apologizing for other people's behav.

[Michael Hobbs]

So, okay, this. We come to you with great reluctance. This, we did our last RFK Jr episode on, I checked, August 1, 2023, and since then, there have been numerous developments in the RFK Jr. Story. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. And we have gotten a million, a million requests to talk about what's been going on with RFK Jr. Because he keeps fucking popping up in the news. And, like, there's always weird animals involved. There's like, an emu thing that, like, I skipped. I was like, there's too many fucking animals. Like, we can't do emus.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There's, like, a sea creature one too, Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

There's a bear, a whale, and a worm.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This simply must be a fever dream.

[Michael Hobbs]

So I basically, I went on the New York Times website and I did a search for RFK Jr. And I opened every single story they have published since August 1, 2023. And I was like, I'm just gonna fucking read all of these and put a timeline together. And then I did some, like, extra research and stuff. And so we're just gonna go through it, like, basically chronologically. Like, what has this man been up to?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Okay, we.

[Michael Hobbs]

We have to start with just talking about, like, his presidential run. So this is kind of ongoing, so it's difficult to put it in kind of chronological time. But as of August 1, 2023, when last we discussed RFK Jr, basically, he's run campaign. But the presidential campaign is weird because he originally was running as a Democrat, but then he switches and he's running as an independent, like a third party guy. What that actually means in practice is that you have to get on the ballot in all 50 states. And the process for getting on the ballot is completely different in every single state where you have like, in some states you have to get like 42,000 signatures on a petition. And in some states you need like 10,000 signatures. And then you have to file them by this date. And then there's a whole weird subplot where his signatures get thrown out. I can't even remember which state, but they get thrown out because he didn't have the vice president listed on the petition. There's all this weird technical stuff to get on the ballot, which honestly is like, kind of fucked up. I think it should be easier. But also it's RFK Jr. So I don't know how much I care.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It is a super complicated process and usually there's a team of people in every state and a director of states is a position that is usually part of a presidential campaign.

[Michael Hobbs]

Speaking of which, this is exactly what I wanted you to read. Oh, no, we have. Our first excerpt is from a really interesting New Yorker article. This is like the main theme of this episode and something that I don't think I got across in our episode episodes is how much of just a piece of shit RFK Jr is just like as a person. So here is a paragraph from this New Yorker article about him staffing up his campaign.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Kennedy ultimately appointed Nick Branagh, a former national political outreach coordinator for Bernie Sanders and the founder of the progressive group the People's Party, to run his ballot access operation. Two years earlier, Branagh had allegedly tried to force himself onto a female colleague. Holy fuck.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

An accusation that was corroborated by a woman who had walked in on the scene. Branagh has said that the allegation is, quote, false and politically motivated. The campaign and its super PAC have spent millions of doll working with firms associated with a ballot access consultant named Trent Pool. In May, Poole was arrested in New York City for choking and punching a woman. A lawyer for Pool called it, quote, a completely unjustified prosecution. So far, Kennedy has got his name on the ballot in about a dozen states.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is the kind of person that he surrounds himself with.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's people who seem to have kind of crashed out of more traditional politics and kind of can't get hired.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There is a kind of person who gets drawn to short term, large scale campaigns. It's not every person who works on them, not by a long Shot. But it's an environment. It's like a little petri dish that allows them to thrive. Yeah. And those are people who will do anything to get their way.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And to win their thing. Right. Because when you're running a short term campaign, that's a year or less, which a lot of these, you know, styles of campaigns are, you're not really accountable to a community of people. You're not really accountable to like a lasting board or anything like that. Right. You have one job and your one job is to win.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And if you win, whatever you did in the course of winning will be sort of forgiven by your side, is sort of the understanding.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's a good point.

[Aubrey Gordon]

In some ways it's like uniquely bad because it's fucking RFK Jr. So of course it's worse, but it's.

[Michael Hobbs]

Only like 5% worse.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, it's not 5%. It's more than 5%, but it is just sort of like. It's like Glengarry Glen Ross, but of elections, you know what I mean? Whatever you gotta do.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Always be groping.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Brainworms are for closers.

[Michael Hobbs]

But I mean, this leads very well into like the next little chapter of this. So there's two aspects of getting on the ballot in all 50 states. So one of them is you sort of start from scratch in these various states. You have to get X number of signatures, whatever. And so you usually hire a firm to do that. There's like companies that will go and get 100,000 signatures for you. It's very expensive. But like, this is just part of kind of running a campaign. So over the course of the campaign, there start to be questions about the kinds of firms that he's hiring and the kinds of tactics that they are using. So I'm going to send you the first two paragraphs of an article from the New York Times.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Amy Bernstein, a traffic court judge in Brooklyn, was heading home from work one night in late April when a young man carrying a clipboard approached her on the subway platform asking if she would sign a petition to help place independents on the ballot in New York. The top of the petition was folded underneath itself.

[Michael Hobbs]

Huh huh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that the names of the candidates were not visible. Ms. Bernstein said she asked for more details and told the man she was a judge, at which point he yanked the clipboard away and asked, am I going to get in trouble?

[Michael Hobbs]

So they're like, do you want to sign this petition? You're like, what's the petition for? And they just like turn and run Away.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yikes.

[Michael Hobbs]

This New York Times article is really funny because you can tell how it came about. So after it tells the story of the judge, it says more than a half dozen New York City residents, including two who are journalists at the New York Times and were approached randomly.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, my God.

[Michael Hobbs]

Similar encounters with signature gatherers to Mr. Kennedy. So basically, like, New York Times reporters get these people come up to them and they're like, wait, what the fuck is this? And people won't explain what the petition is actually for one guy. These are not New York Times reporters, but one guy says this is a petition to get Biden on the ballot.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Jesus Christ.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is after the primary. He's like, what?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. But before Biden dropped out. So it's not that wild a swing as it might sound now.

[Michael Hobbs]

RFK Jr says, says we. The, of course the campaign says, like, denies anything. Like, oh, we must have hired the wrong third party contractor. We're very disappointed. RFK Jr says we take ballot access, voter rights, and truthfulness extremely seriously around here. Mr. Kennedy said it's the very substance of what motivates us to fight the establishment parties in the first place. So the guy who says that there's mercury in the vaccines is very, very concerned about truthfulness.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Here's the thing that blows my mind about RFK Jr. Among other things, he is an attorney, and law is figuring out how to color in the lines. Right. In a lot of ways. And it's also figuring out how to build a persuasive argument for something. And I think the thing that I find stunning about RFK Jr is how unpersuasive he is for an attorney.

[Michael Hobbs]

Well, keep in mind, Aubrey, he was never really an attorney.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right, okay. Sorry.

[Michael Hobbs]

He was fired in disgrace. Like, he's not a real attorney. And when he was, like, quote unquote, an environmental lawyer, he was mostly like a figurehead who was good at getting funding from rich people.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I love that you're like, counterpoint. Don't forget, he's bad at it.

[Michael Hobbs]

He is fake.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is technically his job, but he is bad at it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Your last shred of good faith that you're putting in this episode, I was.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Really holding out hope for.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, you're like, what a conundrum. It's like, until this moment, just the lifelong failure is also failing at this. So one thread of his campaign is this kind of starting from scratch thing where you need to get a bunch of petitions to get on the ballot. Another thread is he's convincing existing political parties to name him as their candidate. So this is another thing that, you know, when you get the ballot, there's the, like, make Seattle safer party.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

They run a candidate every year. And this is like a weird tangent, but I was not aware of the fact that in California specifically, the third largest political party, bigger than the Libertarians, bigger than the Greens, is something called the American Independent Party.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, my God, Michael, do you know about this? I can't tell you how much I know about and resent. Wait, you know about the Independent Party? Yes. So listen, one of the campaigns that I worked on, Oregon, was one of the very first states to create truly automatic voter registration.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, yeah. There was one political party that threw real shit fit about automatic voter reg. And that was the Independent Party, because before it was Republican, Democrat, Independent. So they were essentially like. People were like, getting confused and they thought that independent meant unaffiliated, and they were accidentally registering with a party.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dude, this is exactly the thing in California. So the reason it's the third biggest party is not because people want this to be members of this political party. Right. They. They endorse Kanye west in the last.

[Aubrey Gordon]

In the last election.

[Michael Hobbs]

Guys, we don't do this in Washington, but, like, in other states, you sort of register as a Democrat or a Republican. People see the choice of. You can register as a member of the American Independent Party, and they think that means, oh, I'm an independent voter.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes.

[Michael Hobbs]

They don't actually want anything to do with this party. So apparently there's been like, a whole celebrity campaign to get people not to tick this box, including the actresses Emma Stone and Demi Moore have both been fooled by this and have, like, come out and a bunch of other. I read a whole article about this. This of, like, other prominent people who are like, I accidentally ticked the box, you guys.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. Yes. Secretary of State also should have been saying, that can't be the name of your party.

[Michael Hobbs]

Look, we do this with vanity plates. We should be doing them. Political parties.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Look, if my friend can't get a vanity plate that says two dykes and has to go to court for it.

[Michael Hobbs]

She's Dutch. She's just talking about infrastructure. Water infrastructure.

[Aubrey Gordon]

She specializes in fluid flow engineering. Well, I guess kind. Never mind.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's below sea level.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I feel like you really missed my fluid flow lesbian joke.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, see, I don't know the lesbian jokes. There's no way. Just give the. As a. As a genre of joke on this show. Aubrey, give up.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Fluid is flowing. That's all.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay, so that is, like, the logistics of the campaign. There's also the content of the campaign. People are so mad. We're not talking about the bear and the whale right now, but we're going to talk about the actual political issues at play. So one thing that I think is interesting, like looking over old articles, is that RFK Jr. At the beginning of his campaign, sort of tried to appeal to more left wing people. And, you know, because he's a Kennedy and he ran as a Democrat and stuff, he was explicitly saying that, like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm like the better kind of Democrat. So we are going to read a relatively long excerpt from a New Yorker interview where I am going to be RFK Jr. You are going to be David Remnick, who is asking the questions. Do like a NPR podcast voice.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I have a podcast voice, Mike.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, wait, shit, sorry. I sometimes forget that we're not just like, talking. Okay. Yes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wow.

[Michael Hobbs]

You'd be good on a podcast, Aubrey. Anyone ever told you that?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, what a voice for a podcast.

[Michael Hobbs]

So here is the first excerpt. We're starting with you.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You're running as a Democrat for president, and I wonder, who in the Democratic Party do you feel is kindred to you? Obviously not Joe Biden, but AOC or Joe Manchin. Or are you something new entirely? How would you define your ideology?

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm something old. I'm a Kennedy Democrat. I believe in labor unions. I believe in a strong, robust middle class. I believe in racial justice and policies that are going to actually help the lowest people on the totem pole.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I don't think Joe Biden would disagree with any of that.

[Michael Hobbs]

Well, then why did he do the lockdowns?

[Aubrey Gordon]

What? Sir?

[Michael Hobbs]

I love it. This is like 30 seconds into the interview.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wow.

[Michael Hobbs]

Remember, remember the plandemic lady, how she, how she was just there like, are you an anti vaxxer? She's like, no, but Fauci's killed millions. Just like zero to 60. So. Okay, that was excerpt number one.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I believe in labor unions. That's why I've partnered with Donald J. Trump.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay, this one is even longer.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm finding it curious and maybe even disturbing that some of your early admirers include Trumpists like Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn and Roger Stone. Do you welcome that? Or do you think maybe, just maybe, someone like that is delighted that a strong Democratic opponent will wound Joe Biden and in the long run help Donald Trump?

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm trying to unite the country, David. I'm not going to do what you do, which is to pick out people and say that they're evil. They should be canceled or whatever. I'm a Democrat. I know what my values are. I've always spoken to Republicans my entire life. During all the years that I was a leader of the environmental movement. Dubious. I was the only environmentalist who regularly went on Fox News. And when Tucker Carlson recently did a special on endocrine disruptors and he was condemned by the left, I thought that was crazy. I think what we ought to be doing is inviting people into our tent without changing our values. I think the kind of tribalism that you're advocating is poisonous to our country. I think it's toxic.

[Aubrey Gordon]

At what point do you say, with respect, that this is not about tribalism or cancellation or the terms that you're using, but just an insistence on a certain level of decency and principle? Somebody like Alex Jones comes forward and he has nice things to say to you. At what point do you say, you know what, Alex Jones, with all due respect, I don't want your support.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm not a cancel culture guy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Good.

[C]

Yes.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's not funny, but it's like, this is the weird ideology of this guy, this thing of cancellation, which no one can quite define, of course.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Of course.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's like the number one issue for him.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's just a really weird, clear sort of front for some, like, bad political action. And it's a place for people to put their feelings. And I think that's part of what I think is happening here with RFK Jr. Is he's like, I'm not a cancel culture guy because he, I suspect, feels like he has been canceled or is being canceled.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Nah, dude. People are just judging you based on your beliefs and actions. I don't know what to tell you here.

[Michael Hobbs]

So this actually leads into the final excerpt from this, which is RFK Jr. Just, like, very explicitly talking about his resentment. So here's this. I think I start this one. Yeah. He says, this is the first administration in our history that has colluded with the press to censor Americans directly out of the White House, including me by name.

[Aubrey Gordon]

How are you being censored out of the White House?

[Michael Hobbs]

The White House was ordering the social media sites to censor me.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You're everywhere in the press. You're in what you call mainstream media. You're on Joe Rogan. Who censored you?

[Michael Hobbs]

I am since I declared for president. But before that, I was deplatformed. I was deplatformed completely. 800,000 followers were taken away from me on Instagram at the behest of The White House.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[Michael Hobbs]

Citation. Citation needed. I don't think the New Yorker bothered being like, this is not a real fact. I don't think the White house cares. Honestly. 800,000 followers isn't even that many followers.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This could absolutely be like the text of a conversation between like an influencer who got locked out of their account and like, shein, God, I don't want a presidential candidate who sounds like.

[Michael Hobbs]

I also think what's so interesting too is that like, it feels very clear to me that this whole thing is driven by resentment, but it's not even like fact based resentment. Right. He's basically mad that like his, his account got taken away or taken down or whatever for like posting deranged anti vax shit. But that has nothing to do with the White House. Companies have terms of service. You can't post. You can't post like ISIS beheadings and shit on social media. They'll block you. And so he's mad at the terms of service of Instagram ultimately.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. If you start a fight at a bar and the bouncer kicks you out there, not like censoring you.

[Michael Hobbs]

Exactly.

[Aubrey Gordon]

They're like, you can't fight here.

[Michael Hobbs]

And also they're not following orders from like the mayor.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, totally. That doesn't mean the president told him to do that.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yes. So this is, I mean, this runs through the entire campaign. He's just like a vessel for all this resentment. And it's really that that sort of leads us to the next couple chapters of this. So over the course of the campaign, he starts to drift. Right. I'm not going to go through every single issue, but one of the things that I remember from researching the first couple RFK junior episodes was that he maintained like a shred of integrity. So he would go on these like super right wing podcasts and talk about like, Fauci should be locked up and all this like anti vax garbage. But then every once in a while, one of these right wing hosts would be like, oh, and the Democrats are lying about climate change. And then RFK Jr. Because he was an environmental guy for so long, he'd be like, actually, climate change is real. That one I'm actually, I happen to be with the Democrats on. It was like, like he had this one thing, but then starting like this summer, he appoints a climate denier, like an open climate denier, as one of the managers of his campaign. And then he starts talking about like, oh, he wants to have climate policy. He says that makes sense to skeptics and activists alike.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[Michael Hobbs]

And then when people ask him about specific climate policies, he can't name a single thing that he would do to rein in fossil fuels. So it's like his one issue, the thing that he dedicated his life to, he just completely sold out to, like, get right wing votes, basically. There's something so, like, I don't want to say sad because I have no sympathy for this man, but it's just, like, kind of pathetic.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's also interesting because normally the way that you do things, if you're like, we're gonna appease everyone and therefore do nothing, is usually what that means. Right. Is like, you make like a blue ribbon commission.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. And you just delay, delay, delay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is the number one thing that climate change activists will absolutely not tolerate at this point. It's like, what if we just talk about it some more?

[Michael Hobbs]

We also, in March and April start getting more signs of his, like, right wing ideology and, like, flirting with the right. In April, he gives an interview where he. He says, this is the reality that every American citizen faces, from Ed Snowden to Julian assange to the J6 activist sitting in Washington D.C. jail, stripped of their constitutional liberties.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[Michael Hobbs]

He then goes on Tim Poole's podcast to say that he's against this move to, like, take down the Confederate statues.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Good Lord.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is a masterpiece of a paragraph from a New York Times article. It says, while defending the statues, Mr. Kennedy also said there were, quote, heroes in the Confederacy who didn't have slaves, comma. Though when he later picked an example of a Confederate whom he idolized, he singled out Robert E. Lee, a prominent general in the rebel army who owned slaves.

[Aubrey Gordon]

When you're that writer and you get to write that paragraph, I have to imagine that you're like, in your office just quietly going like, Lebron James. You know what I mean?

[Michael Hobbs]

Like, yes, you know exactly what you're doing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

1,000 bakers. It's the best day of your week, if not your year.

[Michael Hobbs]

So, okay, but then this is Aubrey bait. So we now get to the Aubrey bait section as he does more of these fucking podcasts. He keeps bringing up obesity.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Great.

[Michael Hobbs]

You know, for all that we bitch about the framing of this issue, it hasn't really been a election issue. Yeah, right. This isn't something that comes up in, like, presidential debates. And so he makes it kind of like the cornerstone of his campaign. He's always talking about chronic disease, et cetera. And he's like, you shouldn't take medications. You should, like, eat foods. You know, this whole, like, food is medicine thing. I Mean, that's what he means, right? If you really don't want to get measles, eat blueberries, like whatever the fuck he's talking about, right? So this is an excerpt from, I believe, an interview with Chris Hayes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, Jesus. Fucking hell.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's so boring. It's so boring.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We're paying more now, Chris, for diabetes than for our defense budget. So when I was a kid, a typical pediatrician would see one case of juvenile diabetes in his lifetime. Today, one out of every three kids who walks into his office has juvenile diabetes, and nobody is talking about it. It is costing us $4.3 trillion a year, three times our defense budget. Okay, so question. Oh, no, it's not.

[Michael Hobbs]

Not a question, but proceed, proceed, Governor.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is fucking garbage. And, like, it's not fucking true. It's not one of every three kids does not have diabetes.

[Michael Hobbs]

This, I mean, honestly, this is like a quasar of misinformation. Basically every single thing that he says is false here. So we do not spend more on diabetes than our defense budget. The defense budget is around $900 billion a year. The actual spending on diabetes, according to the American Diabetes association, is about 300 billion a year. So one third of the defense budget. But that is one of those statistics that is, like, massively inflated. They're basically saying that, like, all heart attacks, all strokes, because they're kind of downstream effects of diabetes. They're throwing in all this extra stuff and saying that's like the cost of diabetes. So we don't really know. But even the high end estimates are one third of the defense budget. So that's just like, not true. He says one in three kids has juvenile diabetes. We talked about this on our zombie statistics. Episodes that that's one in three people will eventually, at some point in their lives, be diagnosed with diabetes, which is also not true because the population as a whole, 11% of people have diabetes in America, and among kids, it's 0.35%. And most of that is type 1 diabetes. Like, type 2 diabetes. Rates are rising among children, but they're very, very small as an absolute percentage. I feel like people get things, like, mixed up in their heads.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I think the alarm around kids getting type 2 diabetes is based in an outdated understanding of type 2 diabetes. Right. We have this idea that type 1 is the blameless kind and type 2 is the, like, you fucked up so hard, you got diabetes kind.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, are you about to say that the type one people need to be blamed as well? We're coming for the type one People.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, they've had it too good for too long.

[Michael Hobbs]

Sorry, guys. It's time for you to suffer with the rest of it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Calls up a series of images. And I think he knows that he's doing that, right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, yeah, he's weaponizing. He's weaponizing all this existing stigma. Yeah. I mean, he's not gonna propose anything that makes anybody healthier. Right. What he wants to do is get rid of vaccines. He's not actually gonna, like, improve school lunches or anything. Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Gross.

[Michael Hobbs]

So that was gross. We now get to the more comedic elements of this story on May. Well, actually, this one isn't comedic. Well, we'll get there. So on May 8, we get an article in the New York Times called RFK Jr says doctors found a dead worm in his brain. Colon. The presidential candidate has faced previously undisclosed health issues, including a parasite that he said ate part of his brain. So this is exactly what it sounds like. They find court filings from 2012 where he says, I have a worm in my brain. And he says he got it from a trip to South Asia where he ate some contaminated food and then the little worm swam up to his brain and then ate part of his brain and then died. And when a little worm dies in your brain, it creates, like, a little calcified little thing, kind of like a tumor, and that can affect your cognitive abilities. What's funny about this is, like, it makes him look quite bad, but he's exaggerating how bad it is. So they actually investigate. And people getting parasites is relatively common in the world. Right. And there are literal brain worms. And this does, in fact, happen, and it can spread through diet. So the fact that he got a brainworm is actually not that weird. Right. And most people who get parasites never have any symptoms. They live the rest of their lives. So in the New York Times, they say it is unlikely that a parasite would eat part of the brain. They also. They also, like, there's different kind of type. You know, there's like tapeworms that, like, sit in your intestine or whatever, and they can be like a foot long. It's, like, so fucking gross to think about. In the article, they say, unlike tapeworm larva in the intestines, those in the brain remain relatively small, about a third of an inch. But that sounds really big to me.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I don't want so big.

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't want a third of an inch worm in my fucking brain.

[Aubrey Gordon]

God. I just absolutely, absolutely caught a chill.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, it's so nasty. There is one funny element of this that I kind of like. This was the one aspect of the research for this episode where I was like, all right, Robert, I'll give you this one. So it says in the article, on Wednesday afternoon, hours after this article was published, Mr. Kennedy posted a comment on his Twitter profile. I offer to eat five more brain worms and still beat President Biden and President Trump in a debate. That's actually pretty good.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Good job, social media manager.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay, but then it's about to get sad. So the actual context of this is this is from a 2012 legal case where he's. Him and his wife are divorcing and she's trying to get child support. And the reason he's doing this is he's saying my cognitive faculties were impaired, therefore I have lower earning potential, therefore she's entitled to less child support.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh.

[Michael Hobbs]

The way that this article is framed in the New York Times is as like, a political fucking horse race story. They're like, ooh, the candidate has emphasized his fitness for office and he's done push ups on camera. But actually he has a brain worm, and he's clearly lying about the extent to which the brainworm has affected his cognition. He also says that he has mercury poisoning, something he hasn't mentioned anywhere else. He's lying so that his wife does not get any money. And this happens so he doesn't have to pay any child support. As we discussed in our previous episode, his wife ends up killing herself.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Jesus.

[Michael Hobbs]

Hell, you know, you never want to attribute it to one cause, but, like, this kind of ruined her life. Right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. It's not helping. Yeah, it's not helping.

[Michael Hobbs]

This whole story is, like, really sad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It feels like the more you sort of scratch the surface with this guy, the more you're like, oh, he's less like a comic sort of political side character and more just like a standard issue garbage dude who's, like, trying to avoid paying alimony and is, like, sexually harassing or sexually assaulting people. Allegedly. Despite all of the, you know, bear heads and whale carcasses and brain worms of it all.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He is just like, yeah, you're fucking your friend's shitty ex boyfriend. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

No.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Where you're like, oh, Todd's back.

[Michael Hobbs]

Fuck that guy. Yeah, no kidding. He's Dennis from 30 Rock. Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This feels very Classic maintenance phase. Oh, did you come here to laugh about the brain worms? Just kidding. It's real sad.

[Michael Hobbs]

I actually. I don't know why I did this, but I actually have a list of late night jokes about the worm. Do you want to hear some of them.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Sure. Let's do some worms jokes.

[Michael Hobbs]

So this is from the Daily Show. I don't know what's worse, that RFK Jr. Had a worm that was eating his brain or that his brain is so poisoned that it killed the worm. That's pretty good. That is good. Stephen Colbert said, cause of death, death, starvation, which I kind of like. So we then in July get a Vanity Fair. Like a big, long investigative feature by Vanity Fair where they interview a million people who knew him. And this produces a series of, like, sub scandals. So we're gonna talk about two of them. The first is. Do you remember the dog allegations? The dog eating?

[Aubrey Gordon]

No. What?

[Michael Hobbs]

And send you. I was gonna send you a link, but that will spoil it for you. So I'm gonna send you a screenshot. Hang on. There's a New York Post headline that says, unsettling photo appears to show RFK Jr with barbecued carcass of dog.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's a picture of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And a person with long hair and their face, mostly censored, holding, like, a big sort of rotisserie, like, spit that has a roasted animal carcass of some kind. Like, roasted animal of some kind on it. I'm guessing that's a dog.

[Michael Hobbs]

He says this is a photo of him in the Chilean Andes, and it's a lamb. And the minute people look into it, they're like, oh, yeah, this. It sort of looks weird the way that it's on the spit. Like, it looks untraditional, but it's like you can find a million photos on Flickr of people doing this. Like, a traditional way to cook goat and lamb and various other things. So this is just like a normal thing that they do in Chile. But then again, this photo, whatever the context of it, is so much worse. So the reason we know about this is that he texted this to a friend and said it was like, a friend who's like, I'm on my way to Asia. Like, a completely whatever, normal text. And so he texts this friend back and says, like, well, you're gonna have to eat a bunch of dogs there because they eat dogs in Asia. And so here's me eating a dog.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, it's just him making a shitty racist joke.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's just like, a racist joke joke that he made. Neat. So the other thing that comes out of this Vanity Fair article is the sexual assault allegations. There's a weird thing where there's one paragraph in the article, and this gets no play in, like, secondary media, that when he was Married to his second wife, he allegedly would send nude photos of the women he was sleeping with to his friends.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, God.

[Michael Hobbs]

It says, because those friends assumed Kennedy himself had taken the pictures, but they didn't know whether the subjects had consented to having their genitalia photographed, let alone shared with other people.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Weird that a Kennedy would have issues with women.

[Michael Hobbs]

No, huh. So this, the sexual assault allegations are around a 23 year old babysitter who lives with Kennedy and his wife. In the fall of 1998, there's three incidents of harassment. So in one, they're having dinner and he starts, like, rubbing her leg under the table. She then writes about it in her diary. And then a little while later, she comes into her room and he's like, in her room? And her diary is, like, on the desk. And she's like, kind of confused, like, what is he reading my diary? But we still don't really know what the fuck happened there. But he has his shirt off and he's like, can you rub this? I think it's like sunscreen on my back or like lotion on my back. And she's like, this is just really weird. He was in his 40s at the time. And then the third one is she's like in the kitchen doing something, chopping vegetables or whatever. And he comes up behind her and just like, gropes her and like, rubs her, like, butt, like up her body.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is somebody who basically was interested in, like, working with him because she wants to be part of the environmental movement. She's someone who's like, really into environmentalism. And after this, she leaves the environmental movement.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

You know, when contacted by Vanity Fair and when the story comes out, he doesn't really say anything about these specific incidents, but he just says, like, I've got a lot of skeletons in my closet.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What a deeply weird fucking way to talk about having. God damn it.

[Michael Hobbs]

But then also this woman, the victim, gets a text from him after the story comes out that says, I have no memory of this incident, but I apologize sincerely for anything I ever did that made you feel uncomfortable, comfortable, or anything I did or said that offended you or hurt your feelings. I never intended you any harm, and if I hurt you, it was inadvertent. I feel badly for doing so. If you feel comfortable, I'd like to tell you this by phone and preferably face to face. I recognize that this might not be possible. I have no agenda for sending this text other than making the most sincere and earnest amends. And her name is Eliza Cooney. This is from the New York times. It says Ms. Cooney did not respond to his outreach and did not welcome it. She told the Times, sending A text at 12:33am is not considering his action's effect on someone else. Me, she said at that time, on Fourth of July weekend, the last thing I wanted to do was talk to him. He claims to have no memory of not one, not two, but three examples of his predatory behavior. He expects a societal pass and forgiveness for saying that he's no church boy. I have paid the cost for his sexual misconduct for decades.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Correct.

[Michael Hobbs]

So, like, fuck, yes, Eliza Cooney. Correct. Was just like, I don't know what the fuck you're doing, but I have no interest in talking to you about this boy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I. It's been a while since I felt such an immediate strong allegiance to someone.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, hell, yeah. Spell it out, Eliza.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Absolutely.

[Michael Hobbs]

We then enter August, which is a very packed month for RFK Jr. So on August 4, 2024, we get the story of the bear.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Are you familiar with this, Jeremy Lyon White? What we're not doing. Yes, Chef.

[Michael Hobbs]

How dare you think that I would get a TV reference?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I know you only get video game references.

[Michael Hobbs]

Exactly.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I only get TV references. Never the twain shall meet.

[Michael Hobbs]

Give it to me in Tekken 3, then I would get the bear reference.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You're. He's. Oh, this is. He took it home and he was like, you're allowed to take it home for meat, Aubrey.

[Michael Hobbs]

I read so much about whether or not you're actually allowed to take it home for me. I really hate that. I know so much about, like, Department of Fish and Wildlife protocol in New York State now. So we are going to watch his telling of this. This is in preemptive response to the New Yorker, which is writing a long feature profile on RFK Jr. They're doing the same thing. They're sniffing around his life. They're interviewing a bunch of people who knew him. The fact checker contacts him right before the story is set to publish and is like, we're going to say this thing about the bear. So to get Ahead of it, RFK Jr posts a video of him telling the full story. So I'm gonna send you a link to a tweet.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wow. Looking forward to seeing how you spin this one New Yorker.

[Michael Hobbs]

So the text of this tweet makes no fucking sense. We're gonna watch a brief part of this, and then we're gonna pause and we're gonna talk about Fish and wildlife regulations. So I know I hate this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's what's making me laugh. Okay. So dumb.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[C]

I was taking a group of people falconing up in Gosh in New York up Knots and Valley, and I was supposed to meet them there at like, maybe eight or nine. I was driving up maybe, you know, really early, like seven, and that woman in a van in front of me hit a bear and killed it. A young bear. So I pulled over and I picked up the bear and put him in the back of my van because I was going to skin the bear and it was very good condition, and I was going to and put the meat in my refrigerator. And you can do that in New York State. You can get a bear tag for roadkill bear.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I have to say, I love the cutaways to the face of the person he's telling this story.

[Michael Hobbs]

Do you know who that is?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Who is it?

[Michael Hobbs]

It's Roseanne Barr.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[Michael Hobbs]

Isn't this so weird? She's like a deranged right winger now. I went to her Twitter profile. It's Dar.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I mean, like, I knew she was deranged. I stopped paying attention to her, but I just wasn't accustomed to her current, like, blonde ringlets thing. And, like, this is just all surprising.

[Michael Hobbs]

And even her, who, like, appears to be a friend of his or something, like a sympathetic listener, she has this look on her face of like, what the fuck is this?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. She's doing a full Jim Halpert at the camera.

[Michael Hobbs]

So this is the story that he tells. He's driving around New York State. The person in front of him hits a bear, not him. And then it is legal to pick up roadkill and, like, eat and use roadkill as long as you notify the authorities. There's a lot of, like, weird fact checking of this. A lot of people say that this is false, but it appears to be that this is true. You just have to notify the authorities. It's not. He says, like, you can get a tag for the bear. And there's this weird thing where it's like, there's some, like, local paper. It's like a hunting license does not apply to roadkill. But if you have roadkill and you want to eat it, you can call the Fish and Wildlife people and they can, like, approve of you eating the roadkill. This whole thing seems very weird to me, but apparently a lot of Fish and Wildlife departments around the country kind of want people to eat roadkill. Like, people find it really disgusting, but it's like these animals are just going to sit there and rot on the side of the road if somebody doesn't.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, totally. This is like a wastefulness thing. Yeah. Like, every government department is understaffed, and they're like, hey, could you do that for us? That'd be great.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's a little bit of a moot point because he didn't notify the authorities, as far as we know. So it's sort of like he's. He's like, well, it's okay to do this as long as you notify the authorities, which I did not do.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

But we'll just go ahead and watch the rest of the clip together.

[C]

And so then I. We went hawking, and I had the bear in my car. And then we had a really good day, and we went late. We were catching a lot of game, and the people really loved it, so we stayed late. And instead of going back to my home in Westchester, I had to go right to the city because there was a dinner at Peter luger steakhouse. And at the end of the dinner, it went late, and I realized I couldn't go home. I had to go to the airport, and the bear was in my car, and I didn't want to leave the bear in the car. You know, at that time, this was the little bit of the redneck in me. There'd been a series of bicycle accidents in New York. They had just put in the bike lanes and saw people. A couple of people got killed, and it was every day, and people had gotten badly injured. I wasn't drinking, of course, but people were drinking with me who thought this was a good idea. And I said, I had an old bike in my car that somebody asked me to get rid of. And I said, let's go put the bear in central park, and we'll make it look like he got in funny for people. So everybody thought, that's a great idea. So we went and did that, and we thought it would be amusing for whoever found it or something. The next day, it was like it was on every television station. It was the front page of every paper. And I turned on the tv, and there was, like, mile of yellow tape, and there were 20 hard code. God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Once again, it's so weird. Bless this editor for the cutaways to Roseanne's phase. I know, like, when your judgment is being questioned in real time by Roseanne bar.

[Michael Hobbs]

No. Also, it's so funny to me that he tweets this with. Looking forward to seeing how you spin this one. It's like, this is a deranged, weird story. There's there's no spin required.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's also like, a couple of things. There's a point at which he says something about like, I guess that's a little redneck in me. And I'm like, you're a Kennedy.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's so weird.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's such a weird, like, caricature of a rich villain thing to be like, it'll be so funny to dump this bear carcass in Central Park.

[Michael Hobbs]

Why would someone think it's funny to find a dead bear? He's like, oh, they think they might get a kick out of it. What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. And the other thing that he doesn't appear to be clocking here is he's like, oh, my God, it was on the news. A, that's a wild ass thing. Of course the cops were called. And B, if it wasn't on the news for there being a dead bear in Central park from question mark, question mark origins, there would be eventually a story on the news that was like, a Kennedy put a dead bear in Central Park. Dude, this was always going to be news.

[Michael Hobbs]

Also, Aubrey, I am in Kansas that you have not mentioned his slander of bicyclists. This is what jumped out to me about it. He's like, I'm gonna make it seem like a cyclist killed the bear.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

A, that wouldn't even really happen. You'd have to. You'd have to be a really fast biker to kill a fucking bear.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

And secondly, why the fuck would you frame a cyclist? God's chosen creatures.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is another weird underscore of his, like, unrelatable rich dude shit where he's like, these cyclists are always worth the money. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is such a weird, shitty guy who's been driving a giant and expensive car for a very long time.

[Michael Hobbs]

One thing I did actually find kind of cathartic about this is that I went back to the original coverage of this, like the AP stories and New York Times stories that were published in 2014 when they. They found a bear in Central Park Park. And the reason it was a big deal is because there are no bears in New York. There's no bears in the zoo in New York. So it's like, how the. Did a bear get into Central Park? So, like, of course it was a news story. They do an investigation and immediately clock it. They're like, oh, somebody hit this with their car elsewhere and drove it here for some reason. Oh, God, nobody falls for this fucking stupid prank. This is from the AP story in 2014. It says the initial details of the case were clear. A woman was walking her dog in Central park when she noticed the dead bear, Cuban, which was lying under some bushes, partially concealed by an abandoned bicycle. There's a bicycle on top of this bear for some reason. This is from the New York Times article. Florence Slatkin, who lives near the park, said that she and a friend were leaving when her friend's terrier spotted something near a bicycle lying on the ground. At first we thought it was a bag of clothes or maybe a dead dog, she told the Associated Press. But then as they got closer, they realized it was a very small bear with its mouth wide open and scratches on the side. The cub's head was on top of a back bicycle wheel, Slatkin said. It was terrible and it was the strangest thing, she added. Why was the bike there? So he seems to have just, like, put this bear in Central park and just like, thrown a bicycle on top of it to act like, I'm a cyclist. I'm biking through Central Park, I hit.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And kill a bear, and I leave my bike. This plan has all the sophistication of those, like, the, like, Chick Fil A billboards that are just cows holding signs that say, like, eat more chicken.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's just very bad at framing people. Oh my God, Mike, when do we get the Ripped from the headlines Law and Order Episode one Tiny thing about this video that I would not have clocked except that this video shows up in my thread with you right next to the picture of the quote, unquote eating a dog. Oh, yeah, is that this whole video is filmed while he's sitting in front of a giant hotel pan of beef ribs?

[Michael Hobbs]

No, I know. It's like these giant ribs, like, huge Flintstones meat.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I get it. You like meat.

[Michael Hobbs]

So that story comes out August 4th. There's all this discourse about the bear starting in July and through August, we start to get stories of how his campaign is running out of money. Basically. There's also this thing in Arizona where they get like, they can't get enough signatures for the ballot. They're supposed to have 42,000. They can only get 9,000. And then out of nowhere, this, like, kind of Sketchy PAC delivers 110,000 signatures to the Secretary of State, and you're not supposed to coordinate. This is the whole Citizens United garbage thing, where it's like, you can't give money to candidates, but you can give money to super pacs. But the super pacs are not allowed to coordinate with campaigns, which we all know they fucking do all the time. Time. And this, according to election law, may count as an in kind donation to the campaign because this PAC was basically doing work for the campaign and that may count as coordination. So this may be illegal. So even before RFK drops out, he drops off the ballot in Arizona because there's all these like legal questions and like legal challenges and he's like, oh, this looks really bad. So he's already off the ballot in Arizona. In mid August, we start to get, get reports that he's speaking to the Harris and the Trump campaign. It seems like he tried to get a bunch of meetings with Harris of like, what are you gonna give me if I drop out? And the Harris campaign was just not interested.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Speaks highly of them. Good job.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then the weirdest fucking cameo in this is that we start getting these sort of like anonymous source quotes about him in like detailed weeks long talks with Donald Trump's campaign brokered by Tucker Carlson. Oh, He Then on August 23, he announces that he's dropping out. Annoyingly, he's still in the fucking media, so he's still around. So on September 16th, we get the story of the whale. The whole thing is basically, it's a clip from like an old obscure documentary where his daughter is talking about they're in some fucking house in Long island or Martha's Vineyard or some bullshit. And. And a whale washes up on the beach, a dead whale. And RFK Jr sees this and immediately runs to the garage, grabs a chainsaw, runs down to the beach and chops its head off and then like drives it back to his other house and like, I guess like mounts it on the wall or does. I don't know what the fuck he does with it, but he does that. This is also illegal. So Noah is investigating this. Who knows, whatever, he might have to like pay a fine or something. And then the final chapter of this, which I really should not have spent this much time on, it is the Ballad of Robert and Olivia.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, this one makes me sad.

[Michael Hobbs]

This one's just a huge bummer.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's such a bummer.

[Michael Hobbs]

We're not gonna go super into this one. This is the only story I've ever looked into for this, like, for any podcast that I'm like, I wanna know less about this. I think everyone should know less about this. This is just so weird.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I started to read about it and then I was like, I don't feel good knowing these things.

[Michael Hobbs]

Anyway, we're both deep into this, so we're previewing it, but this is the story Of a political reporter for New York magazine named Olivia Nuzzi, who's sort of like a rising star on the political scene. She's one of these like 30 under 30 people. I don't know how these people get on these fucking lists.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Boy, spoken like somebody who wasn't on a list.

[Michael Hobbs]

There's no like me too. There's no 40 over 40 people who somehow keeping it together despite their back hurting.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, where's the anemic 40 year old gay man?

[Michael Hobbs]

I feel like I would at least be like number seven on that list. Okay, so she works for New York magazine. In October of 2023, she flies out to California to meet with RFK Jr. They go on a hike. We're not going to go too far into this. I'm actually. I went down like a deep rabbit hole of her work and I think me and Peter are going to do a bonus episode about just sort of this type of journalism that is all based on access. Like, she flies all the way to California. She spends the day with RFK Jr. She goes hiking with him and yields no useful insight. It's like he strode up the trail strongly. He said, ooh, there's a bird in the distance or whatever. And you're like, yeah, he likes birds. Yeah, you don't need like going hiking with him is so that you can brag that like, oh, I went hiking with RFK Jr. It's not about getting any actual useful information. Like this whole form of journalism is like a self aggrandizement. Like he's written numerous books. You can read his fucking books if you want to know what he believes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It seems like the allure is the, like, she knows everybody.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, no, totally.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's the selling point rather than the like, oh, there's an insight here that I find useful. Or there's analysis here. There's context, nothing. Or there's history or there's anything. No, no. It's just like, can you believe Leave. She has so and so's self.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, she has this person on speed dial. Yeah, I don't think speed dial exists anymore.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm gonna star 69.

[Michael Hobbs]

So this. We're just gonna go quickly through this. I hate this shit. Apparently they start after the story comes out. He is unhappy with it. He later characterizes it as a hit piece, which it is not. It's way too nice to him. And then they start like dealing with stuff over text. This text becomes flirtatious. This becomes apparently like a sexting thing. They then have like FaceTime sex or whatever. And it's also a really weird story in that neither one of the participants in this affair are, like, really talking about it. So all of the quotes are from, like, friends of theirs. Like, anonymous quotes from friends of theirs. Like, talking to the New York Post and shit. But then, of course, these are biased actors because they're only getting a depiction of the relationship from the people involved. Right. So all of his friends are like, she threw herself at him. He had to block her. It's like she couldn't stop texting.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It definitely wasn't this serial sexual abuse.

[Michael Hobbs]

Exactly. Who's had, like, numerous affairs, right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Allegedly. Yes.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. And like, maybe that is true. But also, he's not a remotely reliable narrator, nor are his friends remotely reliable. There's one of his friends who's like another like, anti vax weirdo, says this had nothing to do with romance. He was being chased by porn.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wow.

[Michael Hobbs]

Which is not a real thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There's also something about this that just sort of sucks from a, like, media representation of lady journalists thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Which is, like, part of the reason there was like, an undercurrent of the freakout about Spotlight being such a great movie. That was lady journalists who were excited that it was a story about a lady journalist who didn't get the story by sleeping with a sort.

[Michael Hobbs]

Whenever people are yelling and making fun of a woman on the Internet, there's always an under threat of misogyny to it that just makes me uncomfortable. And a weird sex shamey element to it. And even if she deserves a lot of criticism, whenever it's a woman, the criticism just goes to 11 really quickly.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. And it goes to a place that it goes from deserved critique to totally undeserved and personal in the blink of an eye.

[Michael Hobbs]

I also, when I first heard about this, I didn't, like, look too much into the details. And I just thought, like, well, obviously they had some, like, tryst, but, like, they never actually met.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. It was all virtual, right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. It's all just like, phone stuff.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

She was engaged at the time. He was married. Her engagement has now been broken off and they're filing restraining orders against each other in court. And it's all fucking weird. She is accusing her fiance of leaking the story. We still don't know who went to the media with this story. It's sort of weird that we know this. Right. It could have just been an employment issue with New York magazine, which has now put her on leave. But like, the fact that we know about this and also the fact that her boss found out about it. Somebody had to tell him, right? So we don't really know who that person is. She says it's her fiance. Her fiance says that it's not him. It's a whole big ugly, dumb thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's another one of those things where I'm like, I don't feel like I should know this about relationship.

[Michael Hobbs]

The court filing. I was like, trying to get the PDFs of the court filings between her and her fiance. And then I was like, what is my life? What am I?

[Aubrey Gordon]

What am I? Totally, absolutely, 100%.

[Michael Hobbs]

I think as someone who exercised unbelievably poor judgment, I think whatever happens between her and her fiance really isn't any of my business. And whatever happens between RFK Jr. And his wife, also none of my business. He's also a piece of shit due to what he does in public.

[Aubrey Gordon]

For real.

[Michael Hobbs]

There's a really fucked up article in the New York Post during, like, when his diary is coming out and when this whole, like, really ugly divorce case is going on that says, like, he basically has the phone habits of, like, a middle aged gay man. So it says that he has 43, like, women, like mistresses or whatever saved in his phone. It says in the Post at the time it appeared Kennedy had a woman in almost every city, including at least five in Toronto, one in Paris, Paris, others in Palm beach and Pensacola, Alaska, Aspen, Colorado, Miami, Montreal, and Cleveland. One of the women had the note Airplane after her name, while another was denoted with farm and a third with teacher. Yet another was only cryptically referred to as Z. And apparently he saved them all under the letter G for goomar, which is. Remember in the Sopranos that means like, you're. You're like girl on the side, right? Oh, don't make me do that again.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I think maybe I should probably cut that.

[Michael Hobbs]

That was bad. That was quite bad. That was my turn.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Along with us talking about it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Sleep, miserable. But also, it's like there's something darkly funny about the fact that he just has, like, Susan Airplane in his phone. He's like, everyone I know does this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes.

[Michael Hobbs]

They're like, Steve Lawyer.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yep.

[Michael Hobbs]

Todd Seattle.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Like, yep.

[Michael Hobbs]

Because everyone's on the apps now. And it's like, it's. It's not specific enough to be like, Jessica Hinge. There's like three Jessica hinges. Like, I was looking through my phone the other day deleting people, and I have David Bicep. I don't know what that means.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes, you do.

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't know who any of these.

[Aubrey Gordon]

People are, weirdly, RFK Jr. S ringtone was just the Rambler. That song from the 60s. I'm the type of guy who likes to roam around.

[Michael Hobbs]

No, that's the Wanderer. I love that song.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, the Wanderer. Excuse me.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's the original. I've got hoes in different area codes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes, absolutely.

[Michael Hobbs]

I want to end with a really good quote. This, this Vanity Fair article is actually quite good. Just like about him, I think. For the love of God, I hope this is the last time we have to talk about this person. This is a good conclusion. So here's this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Kennedy's personal history is not dissimilar to Trump's. A bottomless well of scandal that over time has immunized people against its real world consequences. The Kennedy name, the fantasy and celebrity of it, is its own shield, blinding people to the fine details of Kennedy's actual beliefs and thereby making him an appealing and easy vessel for discontent with Biden and Trump. Quote. Like all the rest of us, Bobby grew up feeling that being a Kennedy, you could do virtually anything you wanted. Kennedy's cousin Chris Lawford told the authors of the Kennedys An American Drama. It was good because you got away with things other people wouldn't dream of. It was bad because it destroyed your sense of what was worth doing. Bears in Central Park.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dude, I know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Bears in Central Park.

[Michael Hobbs]

Whale heads everywhere.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Whale heads, whale heads.

[Michael Hobbs]

If you think about Kennedy, I mean, we kind of already talked about how he's essentially this like fairly mediocre dude who has like failed upwards into these prestigious institutions his entire life.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Classic fail sun scenario.

[Michael Hobbs]

Fail something, right? Spoiled kid eventually makes good because he has this 85 layers of safety nets below him, right? But then you look at what he leaves behind, right? You've got this babysitter who left the environmental ngo. You've got his wife who killed herself. You've got this outbreak of measles in Samoa that we barely even got to talk about where 83 people died, partly because RFK Jr promoted a bunch of anti vax garbage. It's like you've got this wake of damage behind him and yet he himself has only become wealthier, more prominent. And it just like sucks. We need to not have so many fucking mediocre ass people in American life who just never leave.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You can't see it, but I'm Roseanne Barr grimacing at the Kingdom.

[Michael Hobbs]

You have a giant plate of ribs in front of you.