Are You Highly Sensitive? The Neuroscience of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, 12 Signs You Might Have It and Why Logic Won’t Fix Emotional Pain.

Summary

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Mayim Bialik's Breakdown – Episode Summary

Episode Title

Are You Highly Sensitive? The Neuroscience of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, 12 Signs You Might Have It and Why Logic Won’t Fix Emotional Pain

Date: March 20, 2026
Host(s): Mayim Bialik & Jonathan Cohen

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Episode Overview

This episode is one of the most intimate and personal in the podcast’s history. Mayim Bialik and Jonathan Cohen delve into Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)—a phenomenon marked by intense emotional and physical pain in response to perceived rejection or failure. The discussion covers the science, neuroscience, personal experiences, societal factors, and coping strategies for RSD, with Mayim vulnerably sharing her own struggles and revelations throughout the conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria? (00:17 – 05:29)

• Definition: RSD is not a formal diagnosis but a pattern of emotional and often physical pain when confronted with the possibility of rejection, failure, or disappointment.
• Impact: It is common among people with ADHD, highly sensitive people, empaths, and those on the neurodivergent spectrum—but anyone can experience it.
• Differentiator: Unlike typical disappointment, RSD can trigger outsized emotional reactions—rage, shame, anxiety, sometimes even self-harm or physical sensation.

“There are some of us who experience rejection, failure, messing up as something that feels like it's out of proportion to what's actually happening.”
—Mayim Bialik (03:51)

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2. Personal Stories & Self-Assessment

(Quiz Segment: 10:17 – 14:26)

• Mayim takes a quiz to assess her own RSD tendencies with Jonathan moderating. The quiz covers behaviors like people-pleasing, social anxiety, perfectionism, physical reactions to emotion, and avoidance of new situations.
• Both acknowledge these patterns color both their lives and those around them.

“I have rejection, sensitive dysphoria with insight.”
—Mayim Bialik (10:59)

• Mayim scores 50/60 on the RSD quiz.

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3. Case Studies and Everyday Examples

(16:26 – 28:46)

• Emails & Errors: Mayim recalls sending an unintended email and feeling physically ill for days, as well as social events triggering intense anxiety.
• An article is referenced highlighting RSD’s prevalence in sexual minorities and individuals with neurodivergent backgrounds.
• Physical Symptoms: Stories include actual panic attacks and hospital visits in response to criticism or mistakes.

“Many people feel like they've been punched in the chest or physically wounded.”
—Mayim Bialik (11:56)

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4. Neuroscience Behind RSD

(17:54 – 24:45)

• In-depth look at brain regions involved:
  • The amygdala (fear center)
  • The medial prefrontal cortex (processing social information)
• Brain can process neutral stimuli as threatening; feedback loops can create continual misinterpretations.
• Noted overlap with both ADHD and Autism, but with a particularly strong emotional (vs. cognitive) component in RSD.

“Your brain might be receiving information that is neutral, but because of the way everything's working, it's actually not neutral to your brain.”
—Mayim Bialik (22:09)

• Discussed difference between internal experience and outside perception—public success does not preclude profound suffering.

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5. Societal Context and Critiques

(29:08–36:10)

• Exploration of societal attitudes: Minimization (“just buck up” or “you’re too sensitive”) vs. pathologizing.
• Does knowing about RSD help or hinder? Can labeling become an excuse? Mayim hopes awareness fosters self-acceptance and compassion, rather than self-limiting beliefs.

“Does knowing this label make me more likely to do things, or less so? ...I will feel less bad about it.”
—Mayim Bialik (34:41)

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6. Parenting, Relationships, and Daily Life

(36:10–41:17)

• Intense reactions can show up in parenting (“children don’t give an F about your feelings”), friendships, and even with animals.
• Jonathan reflects on Mayim’s (and his own) tendency to feel deep hurt in seemingly neutral situations, e.g., when not needed by her children or pets.

“Other people aren't brought to tears by a cat not wanting to be pet.”
—Jonathan Cohen (38:09)

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7. Coping Mechanisms and What Doesn’t Work

(41:17–46:13)

• Exposure therapy, physical challenges, and improvisational acting (“improv makes me cry—not good crying”) are discussed as possible (though sometimes traumatic) tools.
• Having a script (as with acting) provides security; improvisation or unscripted life events amplify vulnerability and fear of rejection.

“The fear of how people are going to react if I get it wrong is crippling. The word is crippling.”
—Mayim Bialik (42:20)

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8. Self-Esteem, Codependency, and Repeated Patterns

(46:13–48:30)

• RSD overlaps with self-esteem challenges, codependency, and striving to become someone who’s “acceptable” to others.
• Recounts experience of being extra accommodating after a breakup—a Venn diagram between RSD, codependency, and love addiction.

“Don't make me feel that there’s something about me that is not right for you, so let me make it right for you.”
—Mayim Bialik (48:22)

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9. Practical Solutions & Takeaways

(49:13–53:35)

• Therapy: Especially CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and inner-child work. Awareness is described as an important—but not always sufficient—step.
• Medication: Sometimes helpful, especially for comorbid depression or anxiety.
• Self-Compassion: Most vital is to acknowledge the feeling (instead of using logic to deny it) and then gently pair the feeling with reality.
• Validation: Logic alone does not quiet RSD—acceptance and validation are key.
• Reframing: Techniques include “yes, and” (“Yes, I feel lonely and scared, and I know I won’t always feel this way”).

“Logic does not work. So how can you acknowledge fears without agreeing with their content? That’s sort of the challenge.”
—Mayim Bialik (51:09)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On perceived invalidation:
  “You may say to them, it’s not such a big deal. Why can’t you put this in perspective? …Understanding that some people may have this type of reaction to things that you look at and say that’s not such a big deal can really help you better right-size their experience.”
  —Jonathan Cohen (04:57)

• On public vs. private self:
  “People don’t know what was going on in my head...Every Emmy season, it was literally like Garfield when he didn’t want to leave the house on a Monday. That was like getting me out of the house.”
  —Mayim Bialik (18:07)

• On tools and approaches:
  “Treating yourself with acceptance, validation, compassion, you know, we have to honor these emotions… You cannot just use logic.”
  —Mayim Bialik (51:29)

• On ongoing vulnerability:
  “This is the most personal we’ve gotten on an episode just the two of us.”
  —Mayim Bialik (48:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• What is RSD & Symptom Overview: 00:17–06:34
• Quiz & Signs of RSD: 10:17–14:26
• Neuroscientific Explanation: 17:54–24:45
• Physical & Emotional Impacts: 28:46–29:08
• Societal Attitudes & Diagnosis: 31:16–36:10
• Parenting & Everyday RSD: 36:10–41:17
• Coping Mechanisms/Improv Story: 42:15–46:13
• Self-Esteem & Codependency: 46:13–48:30
• Practical Solutions: 49:13–53:35
• Wrap-up & Final Reflections: 53:35–end

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Tone & Language

The tone is deeply personal, vulnerable, and at times humorous and self-deprecating. Mayim and Jonathan move between scientific explanation and experiential storytelling, rooting their discussion in empathy and curiosity. There’s an ongoing theme of “breaking down” boundaries between disciplines, experiences, and what it means to be human.

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Conclusion

This episode breaks new ground for Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown by exploring the intersection of neuroscience, lived experience, and societal context in understanding Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. Both hosts reveal layers of personal struggle, offer relatable examples, and provide practical—if sometimes imperfect—suggestions for coping. The takeaway: RSD is real, complex, and deserving of both compassion and inquiry, and those who experience it are very much not alone.

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For bonus stories and more, Mayim & Jonathan invite listeners to their Substack.

Transcript

[Mayim Bialik]

This is one of the most personal and intimate episodes we have ever done.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Mime shares things about herself that I've never heard before.

[Mayim Bialik]

What we're talking about today is not a diagnosis. It's a set of symptoms that impact

[Jonathan Cohen]

so many people, shaping their experience and their perception of reality.

[Mayim Bialik]

Have I been called overly sensitive? Do I feel anxious in social situations? Do you assume the worst in commonplace interactions? Do I consider myself a people pleaser? Do I pass up opportunities because I'm afraid I'll fail? We're talking about rejection sensitive dysphoria, a profound and deep emotional pain often accompanied by physical pain when there is a perceived fear of rejection, disappointment or failure. RSD commonly does impact people with add, adhd, highly sensitive people, empaths, and some on the neurodivergent spectrum. There may be more going on than you realize. We're going to talk specifically about what it looks like, what's going on in the brain when this happens, and how can we look to make this better. Hi, I'm Imbialik.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[Mayim Bialik]

And welcome to our breakdown. I would argue to say this is one of the most personal and intimate episodes we have ever done. It is just me and Jonathan here, folks.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Mime shares things about herself that I've never heard before, aspects of her personality. She has, aha, moments that, that we've never experienced.

[Mayim Bialik]

What we're talking about today is not a diagnosis. It's a set of symptoms that I think are interesting. But I never realized how many parts of my own life, including my life here on the podcast, have been impacted pretty significantly by this collection of symptoms.

[Jonathan Cohen]

This episode is far more than just mime's personal exploration. These are things that impact so many people amongst us and they are having reactions that are shaping their experience and their perception of reality in a way that is skewed for a lack of a better word. And people who are around them, watching them have these big emotional experiences or limit themselves in a way that can keep them really stuck, are wondering what is going on?

[Mayim Bialik]

What are we talking about? We're talking about rejection sensitive data dysphoria. It is a profound and deep emotional pain that is often accompanied by physical symptoms and physical pain when there is a perceived threat or a perceived fear of rejection, disappointment or failure. We're going to talk specifically about what it looks like, what's going on in the brain when this happens, what are some case studies and how can we look to make this better. It often occurs in those with adhd, also in neurodivergence. You don't have to be ADHD or neurodivergent though, to experience rejection. Sensitive dysphoria. We're going to explain all about it and there's some really fascinating insights which we think will be very important for you. For someone you love. This is a very interesting episode.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like many of the episodes, we actually also give a quiz that help you identify where you may be on this spectrum. But if you're someone like me, who heard the term rejection sensitivity Disorder and only thought about rejection as these blatant acts that could be clearly defined, you may be missing something really important because there are so many of life's interactions that can fall into this category that you are likely not really understanding. And this episode particularly helped me understand a set of situations that in my life and in Mayim's life that I never would have known fall into this area.

[Mayim Bialik]

This is seriously one of the most personal episodes and one of the most revelatory, might I add. I wasn't expecting to do this when we started this episode. It really, really evolves over the course of this conversation. So please join us over on Substack because we have a very special surprise bonus that Jonathan arranged that goes along with this episode. So make sure you follow us over there. Let's get into it. Break it down. There are some of us who experience rejection, failure, messing up as something that feels like it's out of proportion to what's actually happening. That's the kind of experience that we're focusing on when we talk about rsd. Just going to go ahead and use that. The notion is when you mess something up, there are people who experience that as physical pain. There are people who experience that to a level that it triggers intense shame, anxiety, rage, and maybe even aggression or self harm.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And what's important, if you're listening and you may not have this yourself, is to understand what someone else may be going through. You may be with someone who has this outsized reaction and you be. You may say to them it's not such a big deal. Why can't you put this in perspective? Understanding that some people may have this type of reaction to things that you look at and say they that's not such a big deal can really help you better right size their experience.

[Mayim Bialik]

Let's get started with a definition so people know what we're talking about. Rejection, sensitive dysphoria. It's an intense, intense emotional response caused by the perception that you might have disappointed someone, failed, been rejected. Because of that, you perceive that they will Withdraw their love, you will lose their approval, you will lose their respect. So this same kind of painful reaction can also happen if you have a goal you're trying to hit and you can't meet it. So RSD commonly does occur in people with adhd, and it can cause extreme emotional pain. So we're not just talking about, I lost that job and I'm bummed out, or I'm an emotional person or I'm a highly sensitive person. That's not the level we're talking about. We're talking about people for whom they almost can create an alternate reality based on a potential disappointment, a potential rejection, or an actual one.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Something that stood out in what you were saying is the idea that if they have a goal that they're trying to work towards, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a macro life goal.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That the disruption of that or the lack of success in the way that they have imagined it, they may have a hard time reframing their current experience.

[Mayim Bialik]

Correct.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I'll give an example.

[Mayim Bialik]

Please do.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It could be that you want to get somewhere specifically on time, and that could influence you to have a set of emotions. It may be outsized. And I'm using this word outsized a few times because, as you've described, when we have a different timeline come in, it's like there are emotions from our past that are being channeled into that moment.

[Mayim Bialik]

The thing about Jonathan that's interesting is that he has a way of taking things that happened in our life and pretending like he's not making them the topic of a podcast. But you know what? I'm gonna go there. Jonathan thinks that I have rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, which is not why we're doing this episode. But I will give an example. We were supposed to go to. We were. We're going to an important meeting, and we ended up being late because of something that he insisted on. But I'm gonna set that aside because the lateness. The lateness did feel like it caused an expectation in me of the disappointment of other people, which absolutely felt disproportionate and did lead to some rage.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And what was fascinating about that, because we can talk about why we were late. I think there were many factors in why we were late. I definitely contributed to one of the factors, but not all. For example, we got a little lost. The directions weren't totally clear. They had a very complicated.

[Mayim Bialik]

There was a tree trimmer and a

[Jonathan Cohen]

train crossing at one point. We're going the wrong way, and we have a couple More minutes and the gates for a train crossing come down. It was like an absolute comedic farce.

[Mayim Bialik]

It was like the curtain on my soul just came.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I saw Mayim's face in that moment lose all color and a white rage from the underworld come over her. And basically every suppressed emotion you had started filtering out. But here's the thing. In that moment, you lost the ability to reframe. Right. Like, that is a skill that we talk about when we know that something is hysterical. It's historical.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You couldn't have access to the adult parts of you that could parent you to say, it's okay to be a little late. People are gonna be understanding. I have a track record of being a responsible person. None of that was available to you. And I think that's the most interesting part. I'm appreciative that you allow us to talk about this and that you're open and vulnerable to sharing that. And also, how fascinating is it that you can have all the information in the world? You can have these tools, you can know what the process is, and in that moment, you can lose those. You can lose it. You can lose access to it. So what I would hope people take from this is not a condemnation of themselves, is not adding to the diagnoses of some sort of defect. It is intended to be more information about a pattern that you may have

[Mayim Bialik]

or that someone you love may have,

[Jonathan Cohen]

so that you can take this information and say, what are the skills that I may need to employ and if I find myself in that situation, and how can I have a greater understanding of the people around me about what they may be going through?

[Mayim Bialik]

I feel like this is a good time to take the quiz so that we can sort of start to understand and give examples of some of the questions that might be asked to see if you, like me, have rejection, sensitive dysphoria. All right, Jonathan, you're going to answer this quiz for me. This is fun. Do I experience sudden, intense bouts of rage when my feelings are hurt?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Would you say very often?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Very often is a hard thing to say, but often. I would say often, and I'll give a little caveat here, is that you try and fight it, because there is a strong part of yourself that knows, like, you're almost watching yourself have the experience, telling yourself that the experience doesn't need to be so intense, and yet you have it anyway. So it's a fun battle.

[Mayim Bialik]

I have rejection, sensitive dysphoria with insight. Do I experience sudden, intense bouts of extreme sadness when I think I'VE been rejected or criticized?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Oh, yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Am I my own harshest criticism?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Absolutely.

[Mayim Bialik]

Very often, yeah. Do I feel anxious in social situations because I assume that no one likes me?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Is there 100% option?

[Mayim Bialik]

Do I consider myself a people pleaser, going above and beyond to get on someone's good side?

[Jonathan Cohen]

You sure do.

[Mayim Bialik]

Do I pass up opportunities or avoid starting projects because I'm afraid I'll fail?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yep.

[Mayim Bialik]

Have I been called overly sensitive or a head case? It feels kind of harsh because of my strong emotional reactions. Absolutely, yeah. Do I dedicate more time than is necessary to a project or become perfectionistic to make sure my work has no mistakes and is above reproach?

[Jonathan Cohen]

On one hand, you work very quickly and you don't want to work.

[Mayim Bialik]

But I'm a little bit nutty, Professor.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But. But if there's a spelling mistake in anything, you're going to lose your mind.

[Mayim Bialik]

Do I ever experience my emotions as physical sensation?

[Jonathan Cohen]

So, Jonathan, do you experience them as anything but that?

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, this is actually interesting because this is a particular feature of rejection. Sensitive dysphoria is. Many people feel like they've been punched in the chest or physically wounded.

[Jonathan Cohen]

What about stabbed in the side so that your back hurts?

[Mayim Bialik]

So I will say, often when I have a strong emotion, it will feel the way I describe it, it feels like my chest is caving in. I would assume that's what it feels like to be punched in the chest.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Say yes to that.

[Mayim Bialik]

I'm gonna give that an often. Do you feel shame about the lack of control you have over your emotions? It's better than it used to be.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay. I've not been formally clinically diagnosed with adhd, but some people say that I have it. Have I been told I have a mood disorder? Do you shy away from close relationships or romantic relationships because you worry that if people knew the real you, they wouldn't like you? I mean, it's a. It's a thing, it's a feature. But I don't know that it's. I mean, I feel like no one ever gets to know the real me. Does that count?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Let's press. Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Do you assume the worst in commonplace interactions, worrying you'll be fired every time your boss calls, calls you into her office? When someone calls my name, I assume I've done something wrong. When Mike, when. When someone was crying at the park, I was always like, what did my kid do? Even though my children were very, very nice at the park, I do. I have this sense of over responsibility that, like, I'm always at Fault. Like my, my kid must have smacked your child. And it's like, your kid can't walk yet and she's across the park. Do I think I cannot go on feeling this way. I mean, I've done it for a very long time. I think I'm doing a great job. Do you avoid meeting new people or trying new 100% because your fear of rejection and criticism is so strong? Yeah. I mean, also I will say that being a person that sometimes people notice makes me more self conscious because I do feel that for me in particular, trying new things is hard because it's like, if it's anything like, even when I hosted Jeopardy. Even when I hosted Jeopardy. It was like, why doesn't she know the answer to that? Isn't she a neuroscientist? You know, like there's this notion you

[Jonathan Cohen]

didn't know something about, like a Canadian province and people lost their minds. I'm like, she's not a geography expert. What's the big deal?

[Mayim Bialik]

The most points you can get is 60 points. The higher the point total, the greater the likelihood that you showed signs of rejection. Sensitive dysphoria. And this also I should say. This quiz is from attitude additudemag.com what do you think I got out of 60?

[Jonathan Cohen]

47.

[Mayim Bialik]

More.

[Jonathan Cohen]

52.

[Mayim Bialik]

I'm 50 out of 60.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Valerie literally got the same score. That's why you guys get along so well.

[Mayim Bialik]

That is why we get along so long.

[Jonathan Cohen]

When you're talking to each other, it's just one person thinking the other person is gonna reject them.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, so what's interesting is, and I'm gonna speak for Valerie, I don't think of Valerie as someone who seems to have adhd. If you put me and Valerie next to each other right, I'm like a vibrating squirrel, right? Valerie is very. She's more quiet. Obviously, you don't only get, you know this, but there are very high rates in neurodivergence and adhd.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again. Let's talk about the mechanisms and help people understand what's actually happening on a physiological level that is contributing to what they're experiencing.

[Mayim Bialik]

People with rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, they will often experience neutral content as negative or menacing. So imagine being socially anxious. Some of us are socially anxious. And sometimes when you're socially anxious, you are reading into what other people might be thinking and you're kind of getting in their head, and what if they this and what if they that? That's similar. But further down this spectrum, even mildly negative social cues I will interpret as catastrophic. I mean, I cannot tell you the number of parties I've left. Not like I'm leaving in a huff, but like, I do not belong here. I cannot be here. That's a huge component. I mean, people, you know, oftentimes when I talk to people, they're like, I don't get it. You're a TV star. You were on the Big Bang Theory. People don't know what was going on in my head and what it was like Every Emmy season. It was literally like, you know, Garfield, when he doesn't want to leave the house on a Monday. That's an old school reference. He would literally hold onto the door jam, and John would have to, like, push him through, but his hand, that was like getting me out of the house. That's what this episode is. The this. Even though I don't need another label, Lord knows, it does help me to know that this variety of discomfort, of pain, of shame, of many cases, like, feels like I'm generating something that I cannot put boundaries around. It is helpful to know I'm not the only one. And this is a thing.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And it has nothing to do with your external circumstances.

[Mayim Bialik]

But I can't manage that because my life is about being inside of the unintentional unconscious wishes of people that I don't know.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Let's expand on that meaning. People look at your life and they're like, you were going to the Emmys. You had all the success. You were on the top rated TV show at the time. Look how many people just adored interacting with you. They get so excited. They're like, oh, my gosh, Amy. And, you know, you brought joy to so many people. And yet that doesn't translate. That doesn't overcome whatever is happening inside that makes it so uncomfortable to go out in the world and to potentially experience this rejection.

[Mayim Bialik]

There are many academic articles, and we'll kind of get into some of the. The more technical aspects of this. One of the articles that I found, which is very, very interesting, actually talks about the disproportionate representation of rejection sensitive dysphoria in sexual minorities or in populations that maybe are expecting to not be received as fairly. And I think that's a very interesting component here, that certain populations may be more likely to be experiencing this because of all these cultural factors that actually go into the practicalities of rejection, shame, and acceptance. We've talked a lot about the brain. We've talked a lot about different regions of the brain.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I love a default mode network.

[Mayim Bialik]

You do love a default mode network. Default mode network, interestingly, is not involved in, specifically in what we can understand about rejection sensitivity. There's a part of the brain that we talk about that we usually talk about as the fear center. Do you know what region that is?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Amygdala.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's right, the amygdala. There's actually two of them, and they're on each side of the brain. There's certain obvious connections that we might make to abnormal amygdala processing or sensitivity or signaling, largely because we're having situations that are leading to an imposed sense of fear, of pain, of, you know, alert. Right. And a cause for alarm. But what's interesting is some of the brain regions that have been mapped as important for rejection are the parts of the brain that process social information in particular. Here's one study. Medial. Yeah, medial prefrontal activity when anticipating social feedback. So you don't have to know what the medial prefrontal region looks like, but know that there are parts of the brain that are literally specifically designed to scan for social information and receive information from social situations that then leads to the need for a social output. Keep in mind, the brain is this mass of feedback loops and signaling and receptors and binding and ion activity. There's all of these things that if in an imbalance, you might see differences in the perception and activation of these. These regions that are responsible for this kind of social information. So to oversimplify it, your brain might be receiving information that is neutral, but because of the way everything's working, it, it's actually not neutral to your brain. And I think this knowledge of the brain and nervous system allows us to step out of. It's all your fault, because it's kind of your brain's fault. But what it is is that when we talk to someone, for example, who's schizophrenic and they're having auditory hallucinations, it doesn't help to tell them that those sounds are not there, because their brain is producing the interpretation of sound in a way that it is very true to them. And in the same way, when people tell you you're fine, this is why you're not fine. When people tell you they like you, this is why you don't believe it. And I think that's a really important component here. So many of us who are sensitive in this way are planning social activities around the potential for rejection. It's because our brain may be processing all of this social input in ways that are simply not advantageous or accurate to the situation. And that's a major bummer.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It isn't about reality. It's about the perception of reality or the internal reality of the person. And we talk a lot about how reality is not objective and how there's more to reality than meets the eye. This is more to reality than sometimes we talk about. It is a different perception, not necessarily extrasensory, but it's almost a. Would you call it a misfiring. How would you describe it?

[Mayim Bialik]

It's funny because there's another study that used functional MRI to look at blood flow during various different tasks, and this one shows that emotional processing and cognitive control are very sensitive. They're very, very sensitive. So it's the cognitive information coming in and the way that we're processing it that is not necessarily accurate to the situation. And also to me, that sounds a lot more like neurodivergent in terms of autism spectrum. Because when you think about some of the social complexity of people who are on the autism spectrum, it often involves not necessarily being able to calibrate socially. But the key here is that there's this strong emotional component, which I think in many cases you wouldn't be seeing when we're discussing the autism spectrum with this kind of dysphoria. For those of you who might be strongly identifying with what I'm talking about and what I'm experiencing and what we're talking about here, we do have some tips for reframing that we're going to be sharing later in the episode. But first we want to talk about some more specific examples so that you can really kind of wrap your head around the variety of ways that rejection, sensitive dysphoria can infiltrate your brain and your experiences. There was actually an article very recently in the Guardian. And I've been interested in rejection sensitive dysphoria for quite some time. But I'm glad to see that it's getting more notice. And from this article, the examples that were given is a woman who's 36, when recalling being teased when she was 11, it still brought her to tears just describing what happened. And this is 25 years later. And she instantly felt that like, that, like physical discomfort even remembering it. She also remembers that someone made a joke that seemed like, not a big deal, but she said she felt haunted. And this is years later. So often we're looking at a time course that doesn't seem to refresh. Right. And when we talk about this from the perception of like inner child work, to me, this is a lot of inner child stuff, right? This is a lot of who's that hurt child in me that is persisting in all of my interactions to still produce that kind of reaction years and years later. So to there's this huge overlap between that wounded inner child, right, which we talk about, and sort of that inner critic that's sort of constantly monitoring what that child needs and protecting you, right, from all this rejection. So in rejection sensitive dysphoria, the solution is often like, don't go or leave, just get out. Or, you know, be emotionally anorexic. Don't engage with people like, you don't need the possibility of that. Right. I mean, that's significant. Another example that's described in the article in the Guardian is about email errors. Now, we've all sent an email that, like, shouldn't have gone to the person that it went to, right? Yes. Show of hands, Eitan. Is that. Yeah, Okay. I had this happen to me years ago. And the person that I sent it to. This is kind of a funny story. The person that I sent this email to that I didn't realize that they were cc'd on, that person was Sabbath observant. And the email that I sent was right before the Sabbath. So I couldn't even get a response from them until 25 hours later, when presumably they would either see the email or respond to it. That was a rough 25 hours. And since that day, and this was probably 15 years ago, since that day, whenever I send an email, I compulsively double check compulsively. It stayed with me, shook me to my core.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I can relate to the aspect of typos and other things in emails which they happen in my emails. And I used to be terrified of sending that because I used to think that they were a reflection on intelligence. Reflection on something else different. It is, but it's like a joining issue.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, and imagine if that was coupled with rejection sensitivity, like dysphoria, and how many people with ADHD or people who are neurodivergent also are dyslexic, have other learning disabilities. That would, in theory, make it really, really complicated. The example that was given here is that something was pointed out to this woman who's in this article. It was pointed out to her that she made an error. She said her chest became tight and she started having an asthma attack. She went to the hospital, like, that was the level. And a lot of times you'll hear people be like, I was having a panic attack. No, if you're not in the hospital, having them check your oxygen, be careful what you assume about your panic attack. This was a physical sense of collapse that instantly was unrelated to the subject, meaning, oh, this happened and now I don't have enough oxygen. A lot of times when people describe panic attacks, what they're describing is bad feelings in their body about something that happened that feels unpleasant. Right? This is the point at what physical impacts. Right. Of rejection, sensitive dysphoria. That's what it can look like. And this woman ended up being told, and she did receive an autism diagnosis in childhood. She was on the spectrum, also adhd. And once she heard that this coexists with those things, it gave her a place to start to try and figure out, do I have to live like this? The answer is no, you don't have to live like this. I also wanna point out there's a lot of criticism and you mentioned it. When we talk about diagnoses and putting people in boxes and do you need this label and what does it mean? One of the comments, when this woman started researching about rejection sensitivity disorder, a lot of people are like, you're just touchy. You're just super sensitive. And it could be dismissed as such. And I have many people, many people close to me who'd be like, girl, buck up, buck up, right? I mean, think about my dad, like, when I would get hit if I were to catch the football wrong and I was in pain and crying, he'd be like, get up, get up.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Right?

[Mayim Bialik]

Some people are just like, we don't have room in society for this. Do we have. Do we have room in society for this? Where does this fit? I'm also touchy, but I also have rejection sensitive dysphoria.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Is this diagnosis going to limit your ability to navigate the world? Meaning by by knowing this is going to help you or are you going to use it as an excuse to. To do less?

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, this is a great question. One that we did not. I did not know you were going to propose that question.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And again, I'm going to use my experience, which I'm caveat, caveat, caveat. It is not the same. But I sent an email recently that spelled pacific wrong. Every time you're cc'd on an email and I make a mistake, you point it out to me. It's your rejection sensitivity coming onto me. And while I don't intend to, I

[Mayim Bialik]

want you to know for the next time, not because I'm like, you're a bad person who can't spell.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I would have previously felt way, way worse. Like my experience of that 10 or 15 years ago would have been like so intense and terrified and like, how did this person. And I would have lost a lot of mental energy on it. What changed was, I think, life experience in that I have more positive experiences that prove that I am not the thoughts that I thought I was. And two, I worked with very high functioning executives who also couldn't spell, who also couldn't spell. And they functioned and built companies and sent a lot of things. One of them, English, wasn't his first language and you could barely understand his emails. And I was like, this guy built and sold multiple companies and is very successful.

[Mayim Bialik]

So you were just around the wrong

[Jonathan Cohen]

people and they prioritized a perfection and a level of perfection that for me wasn't achievable.

[Mayim Bialik]

I just feel bad that I'm a great speller and I'm not even allowed to celebrate it anymore. I used to win bees. I was the one everybody came to. Now it's like, oh, I feel ashamed that I'm a good speller.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I used to call my grandmother to ask her how to spell things before the Internet was there. This episode is sponsored by Wondering Jews, an open door media brand.

[Mayim Bialik]

If you've ever found yourself feeling like you have more questions than answers, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bittone and Noam Weissman, dig into the biggest questions about life through a Jewish lens. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, learn something new, and probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Noam tackle the tough topics like anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the Future of Religion with guests like Bret Stephens, Michael Rapoport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this past month, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they've been celebrating some of the Jewish lives and institutions that have shaped American life, from food to music and comedy. Thoughtful, joyful, and always honest. That's Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam, a production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure to hit subscribe. Check out Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam podcast and subscribe at Unpacked Bio nmx the kind of, like, core machinery that is necessary to not have this. I just. The question you asked me, right, the question you asked me is, does knowing this label, does this make me more likely to do things, or less so? In some ways it gives me. I don't want to say an excuse, but I. I feel like my hope is that you will understand better why things are hard for me. Because it's not just, I don't want to. I'm a brat. I didn't get enough sleep. I don't weigh what I want. My hair's too gray and thin. You know, it's not that. It's that the framework with which my brain views people, places and things is different. I mean, we're all different, right? We're all neurodivergent. But this kind of understanding, I think, will make me just as likely to not wanna do things, but I will feel less bad about it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Have we become a society that has so much comfort and so much room for emotion?

[Mayim Bialik]

It's a luxury that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's a luxury to feel like this. I had a friend who was like, depression? No, I'm sorry, we don't have time for that. But at what point you're like, lift weights, move your body, get outside. And yes, you're gonna have emotional reactions, but you have to be able to pull yourself up and parent and hold that part of yourself and almost override that part of your brain that is telling you a signal that some other part of your brain has to know is not true.

[Mayim Bialik]

What is a situation that you most see me exhibiting a very, very strong reaction to rejection from when I'm not

[Jonathan Cohen]

available immediately when you want to talk to me. What is it, my children?

[Mayim Bialik]

When I am not needed in a particular situation, I can tell that I'm having a disproportionate reaction to that situation.

[Jonathan Cohen]

When my child doesn't need me, I'm like, oh, what else am I going to do?

[Mayim Bialik]

No. Correct. And that's a really interesting example, because if they were. Did anybody see the assessment? Highly recommend the movie the assessment. If they had done an assessment before I had children, I'm sure my ex husband would line up to raise his hand in agreement with this one. If they had said, anyone who has rejection sensitive dysphoria is likely gonna have a very hard time parenting small children. I would have been like, oh, small

[Jonathan Cohen]

children, don't give an F about your feelings.

[Mayim Bialik]

And as an adult, we are supposed to be the ones who are able to say, that's a child. It's not a rejection of me as a human. If they say, mama, I've got it right. But that is a tendency that I've been aware that I feel. I feel it from animals. Like if I want to pet a cat or a dog, I feel like you're like checking out on this relationship. I feel it. I mean, Valerie. I'm going to look to Valerie if I want to engage. Yes. With like an animal. And they're kind of a pissy animal. It feels different to me. It's not that I can't manage it, but I am aware now that that level of processing feels disproportionate. Absolutely.

[Jonathan Cohen]

What do you do in that moment? Do you recognize that it's disproportionate what other people don't?

[Mayim Bialik]

Other people aren't brought to tears by a cat not wanting to be pet.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Valerie says, even at the effing zoo, if they don't single me out in a crowd, which is amazing. I really, like. I'm kind of fascinated by. By this because it feels number one, so frequent for me just for people who are walking around the world. Like, it also feels like it's something about the child that just didn't get a moment of connection that allowed them to feel like everything is going to be okay.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, Valerie also brings up a lot of people say, like, I don't care what people think, or. I've often said this. What other people think of you is none of your business. Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

None of it.

[Mayim Bialik]

But that it's like. It feels like just like whizzes right by me. That kind of statement. But I mean, it's. It happens a lot. I don't, frankly, I don't understand how I function.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I'm starting to wonder too, because it also feels exhausting.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's very exhausting because you're on this

[Jonathan Cohen]

roller coaster, this rush of like.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Things being out of control all the time.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, there's a potential for, you know, kind of like rejection at every Corner. I also wonder if it's linked to road rage. Because when someone wrongs you or cuts you off or doesn't let you in, right. In many cases you get that explosion of like, why?

[Jonathan Cohen]

You've also heard the term that everyone is dealing with something that you cannot imagine. Like you have all the knowledge, all the podcasts, all the knowledge, all the we are not our thoughts, we people are going through stuff. It's really 99% of the time it's not about us.

[Mayim Bialik]

What I'm hoping is that people listening who are not public figures can also validate this. Because I think that a lot of this has been put on like, oh, well, you're an actor. Oh well, you grew up in front of the camera. Oh well, this, that, the other. Maybe that's not it, maybe that's part of it and that's like a huge exaggerated version of it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Well, we would never know what was there without the life experience that you have.

[Mayim Bialik]

In my parallel universe existence, who knows? Valerie's never been on television to my knowledge. I'm very interested also in this as a newer kind of set of traits, because I'm wondering how much other overlap there is with other things that we know about people. Like just like there's different kinds of narcissists, Are there different kinds of rejection, sensitive dysphoria? People like, do some people get real haughty, you know, and real like, I don't need to go to that party. Like those people are stupid. F you. Like, does that happen or is it just the like sniveling response that I have?

[Jonathan Cohen]

I think there probably is a lot of externalized anger and blame of the external world, right? Like if, if to protect against the feelings, if that's gonna bring up so much sadness and insecurity, I think a lot of people are gonna externalize and protect themselves.

[Mayim Bialik]

So I'll be honest, I don't feel like there's a protection around this. And I think that's what's so challenging about it. It doesn't feel. And I think this is a great segue into like solutions and what are some of the things that you can do? Cuz it doesn't really feel like you can protect it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I have a horrible solution. I'm like, if someone is doing grueling workouts, yes, five and a half days a week to exhaust the body and to know that you can go through really, really challenging things. And I'm talking about like workouts to failure, like really pushing yourself physically. I'm like, can you still have that level because there's not the resources available. Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's like, you think we can extinguish my rejection Sensitivity to dysphoria.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Look, it's an oversimplification, but, yeah, part of me thinks it's like, if you push yourself physically so hard.

[Mayim Bialik]

Jonathan. Improv. Improv makes me cry and not good crying.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So. Because there's no right or wrong.

[Mayim Bialik]

Nuts.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You need rules. You need to know what is right or wrong.

[Mayim Bialik]

I know that. Like, the. The fear of how people are going to react if I get it wrong. It is crippling. The word is crippling. And everybody's like, you're great. You're so fun. You're going to do is. Nobody cares. Everyone can shut up.

[Jonathan Cohen]

There's an amazing example of this. When you were doing improv at the Groundlings.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, the first time I went, I literally. I was a wreck for weeks, but so this I was revisiting, but they were putting some more structure around it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You were doing, like, great. I think there was, like, two or three scenes that you were in, and they went really well.

[Mayim Bialik]

I was holding back tears the entire

[Jonathan Cohen]

performance, but you did great. People were laughing. I was like. I was there. I was watching it. I was, like, waiting for you to bust out crying. You hadn't cried yet. And I was, like, thinking to myself, this is going really well. And then a scene comes on with an actor whose name I don't remember, and he is a phenomenal improv. Just the two of you?

[Mayim Bialik]

We have to create a children's book. Right. That was like. The setup is like. Like you're both reading to a group of kids, but, like, that's all we got.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I guess he had never heard of Dr. Seuss. That's right.

[Mayim Bialik]

I can't remember why. He had never read a Dr. Seuss book.

[Jonathan Cohen]

He doesn't have children. I guess he doesn't know who Dr. Seuss is. No. And if you don't know who Dr. Seuss Is, the thing about Dr. Seuss is the writing is extremely specific. Right. Like, pull up. It's like green eggs in ham. It's rhyming couplets.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

The stories are, like, very iconic. And he's making things up that are hilarious but totally outside of the Dr. Seuss world. And you are freaking out because nothing that he's saying makes any sense to you whatsoever. Well.

[Mayim Bialik]

And Dr. Seuss is, like, rhyming couplets.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And then there's a dragon, and the dragon starts spitting fire, and you.

[Mayim Bialik]

And I'm trying to rhyme with it,

[Jonathan Cohen]

and you're trying to bring it back to Dr. Seuss. So there are these opposing tensions, and the two of you are moving further and further apart. And as the crowd. Who doesn't know what's happening in your internal world, it's hilarious. People are loving it because there's such a huge juxtaposition, and that's what's making the comedy. And in your world, you're like, this isn't working well, this guy.

[Mayim Bialik]

It also bumped up against my rigidity, which is like. I don't know, like, yeah, it wasn't right. Like, meaning there's a right and a wrong way. And, like, that didn't feel right to me.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Not only did it not feel right, it felt like the worst type of wrong.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, I didn't know that this episode was gonna get this personal, but what

[Jonathan Cohen]

was amazing about that moment, again, is externally how wrong it felt for you was comedic gold.

[Mayim Bialik]

I actually felt some confidence, I remember, in that skit in particular. But like I said.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But that was the breaking point.

[Mayim Bialik]

This. I mean, how many minutes into this episode am I realizing that this explains something so deeply that has plagued me for years? Years, Years. I know a lot of people are wondering, how can you be on stage? How do you do that? The thing about performing is that I have a script. I've got the words that I'm supposed to say. I know the way that I'm supposed to say them, because we've rehearsed it all week, and then we perform it on Big Bang Theory, on Blossom in front of a live audience. That is not the same thing as all of these other things as improv. First of all, it's not the same as that. It's not the same as going to a party. It's not the same as sending an email. It's not the same level of vulnerability and anticipation, of fear.

[Jonathan Cohen]

There really is a huge difference between people who do improv, and there's much more of an overlap between the improvis.

[Mayim Bialik]

They don't have rejection, sensitive dysphoria.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And the standup comedians, because you're standing up there without a script. The standups have worked out jokes, but they never go exactly the way you imagine. There's real time interaction and those people who are given scripts, who are actors, who, you know, maybe they improv some sometimes, or the people who are just like, I know how to deliver these lines.

[Mayim Bialik]

So one of the things that also gets grouped here before we get into actually, what do you do? How can you get help with this right this overlaps very, very strongly with something called self esteem. Right. Because a lot of people would just say you just lack confidence. What you need is to become more confident, do more improv, do more practice, meet with a private improv coach. If you're just more confident, you won't be like this. Well, guess what? I don't think that's true. I don't think it's just about confidence and the kind of improvement in confidence that we are talking about that I would need to function in the world without feeling like this is happening. This is pretty far off from where we are right now.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I would agree with you. And I would challenge to say that at a certain point, more positive experiences of things going well would reduce the fear of things going badly.

[Mayim Bialik]

Do you know what it's like when someone breaks up with me?

[Jonathan Cohen]

No.

[Mayim Bialik]

No, I don't imagine having this kind of sensitivity. What it means as, what can I do? So this is not happening. Who do I have to be so that this doesn't happen? You want more this. I'll give you more that. You want less of this? Okay, I do. Less of that. This. To me, there's gotta be a huge Venn diagram overlapping with some level of, like, codependency and love addiction. Right? Don't make me feel that there's something about me that is not right for you, so let me make it right for you.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yeah, but that is a recipe for disaster.

[Mayim Bialik]

And that's how we got this podcast.

[Jonathan Cohen]

380 episodes later, here we are, folks. It's all because of rejection, sensitivity.

[Mayim Bialik]

You know, Jonathan, I enjoy doing episodes with you alone. This one's been very interesting, though. I feel like this is the most personal we've gotten on an episode just the two of us.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Took a while to get here.

[Mayim Bialik]

Let's talk about some of the things you actually can do. So do you want to give any guesses? I didn't like your first idea of, like, exposure therapy. That's unpleasant.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I have something planned that I have not told Miami.

[Mayim Bialik]

Are you going to reject? Are you going to dump me live and see what happens?

[Jonathan Cohen]

There's been more hand slapping at the table on this episode than any other episode we've ever done.

[Mayim Bialik]

Go ahead. Should I talk about what people can do?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yeah, let's talk about what people can do. But tune in to substack because we have a surprise coming.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't know when he's gonna dump me on substack. Let's talk about some of the things that people can do, but please do Join us over on Substack because you do not want to miss that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Mayim B. Alex Breakdown on Substack I'm

[Mayim Bialik]

gonna say something that's very trite, which is that any of the things that would be suggested for low self esteem indeed could be recommended for this. Meaning if you've been a person who's been like, I'm not gonna work on myself. I'm fine, I don't need to go to therapy. Like whatever happened in my childhood, I don't wanna think about it. If you're one of those people and you're experiencing what I'm describing, that's a great place to start. Some people do find that certain medications that treat depression and anxiety can quiet these voices. And I have experienced that. You know, when I was younger, I tried just about every medication that there was starting very young. Certain things do make these voices quieter. And I'm very interested in the, you know, the chemical mechanisms. Probably be a topic for a deeper dive if people are interested or maybe we could talk about it in a live sometime. So some of those things do help. But you know, cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the things. And my level feels pretty stubborn. It does, it feels pretty stubborn. But here's an example. This is from the University of Rochester Medical Center. Treating yourself with compassion. And these are just some things to think about. Treating yourself with acceptance, validation, compassion, you know, we have to honor these emotions is what they recommend. You cannot just use logic. And I think that's what a lot of people are doing. They're trying to use logic. Logic doesn't work. So that's what I'm also here to validate for you. Logic does not work. So how, how can you acknowledge fears without agreeing with their content? This is a great question because so many of us have fears, fears. And what we're told is like, well, that's not going to happen, or don't be afraid of that. But how do you acknowledge that fear without agreeing with it? That's sort of the challenge. So if you say, let's say I'm feeling scared that people don't like me anymore, right? My heart's beating fast. This is the example they give. My breathing feels blocked. I'm terrified that they hate what I said. What you want to do is you want to say yes and an improv. Too often you love a yes and I love a yes and pair it with an emotion. So, yes, I feel lonely and scared. And I know that sometimes these situations happen, right? Yes. I feel alone and I likely won't always feel the way I'm feeling now. I mean, that's, you know, something we teach children, right? You will not feel this forever. You'll feel other versions of shitty. But we don't want to tell them that too young because they'll be very depressed. Yes, I'm worried that I might get fired. And I see that I got an accolade yesterday from this same boss, right? So it's trying to not deny the feeling because I think that's what so many of us are taught to do. Stop being so sensitive, stop this, stop that. It's just this. You're wrong. But this is to say, yes, I'm feeling this, right? I am feeling this. And here's what objectively can be true, and that's sort of stepping out of that. I call it the timeless inner child. Because it doesn't know what, what time frame it's on. It's always on the timeframe of when it was injured or when it was scared and being able to sort of step out of that. So those are just some things. And you know what? I think this is something that we're gonna start seeing more of because I think it's a very important, a very important set of symptoms. Again, it's not considered its own diagnosis, but this one really, it felt close to me. But as we talked about it more, I learned a lot more. I'm really, really glad that we talked about this. Vulnerable.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I enjoyed the fact that you brought this topic up for us. It is more and more prevalent and being talked about. And so it's very vulnerable. It was very vulnerable. And you shared a lot today. And I think that we're people really appreciate that.

[Mayim Bialik]

I just thought of another place that we've seen this play out. Where is that a behind the scenes thing? Well, think of every time we've had on a particularly intimidating physician. Usually I get very, very. I get angry like before, like, I don't have anything to talk about. What am I gonna talk about? Why are you making me talk? How many times does that happen?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Oh, my God.

[Mayim Bialik]

I think this is it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I say to Mime. I'm like, every time, like every episode, it's the same thing. Like, and I've had to say to, she, she says to me, like, what are we going to talk to this person about? Why are we talking to them? And I'm like, confused because there's a

[Mayim Bialik]

pitch document now, you know, I'm, I'm not smart enough. They're going to call me out on it. I'm going to look stupid. It's going to be horrible. They're going to think that I'm wasted my degree. And they're going to think that why did UCLA give me a PhD? They're going to call up my thes thesis advisor and be like, why'd you give this lady a PhD? And it feels imminently threatening.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And what's doesn't make any sense to me is I'm like, she has a vast more amount of knowledge than I have.

[Mayim Bialik]

Logic. Logic doesn't work.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And all these guests, they're like the episodes you've. You've been listening. The guests keep coming back. They enjoy what you have to offer. They say, no one has read my book as thoroughly as you have.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, I'm not gonna say who and then we'll wrap. But I do have to say that there was one guest I was particularly so scared to speak to. And the only thing that made me feel better was that after the episode, Jonathan made a mashup of all of the deeply vulnerable things this person said when they kind of came clean with us about challenges they have. I sometimes just watch it when I need to feel better because it reminds me that even very prominent success, successful famous people have those vulnerable places. And I love that you made it for me, but, like, that's helpful to me.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And no, we cannot release it. Don't ask.

[Mayim Bialik]

Jonathan, great, great talk. Great episode with you. Thank you so much. Please head over to substack. You are not gonna wanna miss what happens over there related to this episode. Also, we're very, very curious. Very curious. Who else has rejection, sensitive dysphoria? I can't wait to meet my fellow, my fellow friends and strugglers on this journey from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's Maya Bialik's breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two and now she's gonna break down. So break down. She's gonna break it down.