Part Two: Inside the Hidden World of Secret Societies: Dr. Richard Spence On How They Form & How They're Still Influencing Our Politics

Summary

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Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown:

Part Two: Inside the Hidden World of Secret Societies—Dr. Richard Spence On How They Form & How They're Still Influencing Our Politics

Air Date: November 12, 2025
Host(s): Mayim Bialik & Jonathan Cohen
Guest: Dr. Richard Spence (Professor Emeritus of History, University of Idaho)

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Episode Overview

This episode, the second part of an illuminating conversation with Dr. Richard Spence, delves into the persistent influence and evolution of secret societies—from their roles in historical events to their echoes in today’s political and cultural realities. The discussion covers the CIA’s roots in secrecy and deception, differences between misinformation and disinformation, the psychology behind cults and religious movements, the mechanics of manipulation and brainwashing, and the ambiguous power of buzzwords like "greatness" in modern slogans. Dr. Spence, Mayim, and Jonathan guide listeners through the blurry boundaries of truth, trust, and power in both historic and current landscapes, offering both caution and insight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature and Danger of Secret Societies

[01:12] – [05:54]

• Secrecy as Power: Dr. Spence explains that while most secret societies are harmless, their very nature—operating behind a veil—means they are susceptible to dangerous purposes. The key factor is the “intention” behind secrecy.

• Quote:

  “They can be [dangerous]… Most of them frankly are innocuous… but it all comes down to the intention.”
  — Dr. Spence [01:17]

• Secret Bureaucracies: The CIA is cited as a prime example of a modern, bureaucratic secret society. Secrecy and deception are not exceptions but core to its functioning.

• Prevalence of Lies: Dr. Spence emphasizes that deception permeates society:

  “Human beings lie constantly about everything, often for no particular reason.”
  — Dr. Spence [03:37]

2. Misinformation vs. Disinformation

[07:04] – [09:41]

• Definitions:
  • Misinformation: An honest mistake.
  • Disinformation: Deliberate deceit, usually constructed with just enough verifiable truth to be convincing.
• Insight: The more subtle the disinformation, the more dangerous:

  “To be good, disinformation… must be mostly true… nine of them are true, but one… is the lie, which is the product you're being sold.”
  — Dr. Spence [08:20]

3. Trust, Paranoia, and Human Nature

[09:41] – [12:29]

• Paranoia vs. Trust:
  Dr. Spence shares personal anecdotes, suggesting a balance between caution and openness—suspicion is healthy, but not all secrecy is nefarious.
• Friendship & Deception:

  “Actual friendship between people takes a certain amount of time and trust to develop.”
  — Dr. Spence [12:04]

4. The Digital Age: Truth in a World of Cameras and AI

[15:05] – [20:15]

• Challenge: Although everyone “has a camera,” truth is not easier to discern; with AI, reality can be convincingly faked.
• Eyewitness Reliability:
  Dr. Spence deconstructs the myth of objective truth, emphasizing fallibility of memory and perception.
• Quote:

  “There is no actual hard original truth. There are impressions of what happened, and from those… you try to reconstruct as good a picture as you can.”
  — Dr. Spence [19:10]

5. Cults, Secret Societies, and Religions: Distinctions and Overlaps

[21:44] – [29:31]

• Defining a Cult:
  “Excess devotion” to a charismatic leader, secrecy, indoctrination, and cutting off outsiders are hallmarks.
• Historical Roots:
  Cults, in the original Latin, simply meant ‘to worship’ or ‘to nurture.’ Over time, it became a pejorative term.
• Vulnerability:

  “Both of these people are college educated, which I've also learned is no guarantee against anything. In fact, it may make you even more vulnerable.”
  — Dr. Spence [27:43]

• Human Need: Mayim reframes cult and secret society appeal as a universal human need for belonging, specialness, and meaning.

6. Manipulation, Brainwashing, and the Problem with Buzzwords

[31:06] – [34:28]

• Mind Control: Some societies (e.g., the Illuminati as originally conceived) had explicit missions to reshape society; manipulation often uses undefined, attractive terms like “happy,” “free,” and “good” to justify actions.
• Slogans and Marketing:

  “When words like great or good are used in a slogan… they're meaningless. It's just… a buzzword.”
  — Dr. Spence [33:51]

• Echo Chambers: The internet amplifies like-mindedness, but the outcome depends on the intent and values of the group.

7. Cults, Religion, and Modern Leadership

[35:44] – [39:10]

• Religion vs. Cults:
  A provocative distinction:

  “In a cult there is always someone… at the top that knows it's a scam, in a religion that person is dead.”
  — Dr. Spence [35:57]

• The Trump Analogy:
  Mayim draws parallels between modern political movements and cult mentality, highlighting blind devotion.

• Rationalizing the Irrational:
  People rationalize their devotion, even after disillusionment:

  “It was all the fault of other people… It wasn’t just because they were being stupid.”
  — Dr. Spence [38:53]

8. Madness, Group Formation, and Social Reality

[43:05] – [44:41]

• Madness as Universal:
  Paraphrasing Churchill, Dr. Spence invokes the idea that everyone is “a little mad about something.”
• Pragmatic Takeaway:

  “Seek like minded people who share your brand of insanity, swear each other to secrecy, and then take over the world for the greater benefit of everyone.”
  — Dr. Spence [44:42]

9. Final Takeaways & Wisdom

[50:38] – [54:30]

• Red Flags and Caution:
  Both hosts stress caution around anyone—or any organization—amassing unchecked power, demanding money or labor, or radiating excessive praise without question.
• Quote from Buddha: (maybe apocryphal, but resonant)

  “Believe nothing no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense.”
  — Mayim Bialik [54:01]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Human Nature:

  “We want to be wanted, and we want to be important. Right. We want to belong.”
  — Mayim Bialik [28:04]

• On Modern Slogans:

  “Make America Great Again… What does 'great' mean?… When words like great or good are used in a slogan, what that basically means is that they're meaningless.”
  — Dr. Spence [33:23 & 33:51]

• On Trust:

  “I have a wife that I trust as much as I do any human being.”
  — Dr. Spence [09:53]

• On Echo Chambers and Influence:

  “I'm not necessarily sure that all human communities really need to exist. Okay. Because sometimes you can get like minded people together… it all depends what they're like minded to do.”
  — Dr. Spence [34:17]

• On the Flawed Search for Truth:

  “There is no, there's no there there when it tries to come down to what was the original unadulterated pure truth of the situation, because that never existed outside the fallible framework of human perception and memory.”
  — Dr. Spence [21:11]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:12] — Dangers and intentions of secret societies
• [02:52] — CIA as a modern secret society; the mechanisms of secrecy
• [07:04] — Misinformation vs. disinformation
• [08:16] — Why disinformation is so effective
• [15:53] — Technology, cameras, and the (non)-rise of truth
• [16:03] — AI and the impossibility of verifying reality
• [19:10] — Eyewitness testimony and the limits of memory
• [21:44] — Cults, religions, secret societies: Definitions and overlaps
• [27:43] — Intellect does not guarantee immunity to cult manipulation
• [33:23] — Language manipulation in slogans, e.g., “Make America Great Again”
• [35:57] — Scammers in cults vs. religions
• [44:42] — Dr. Spence’s parting tongue-in-cheek advice on forming “secret societies”
• [54:01] — The Buddha’s caution: Trust your own reason and common sense

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Episode Takeaways

• Critical Thinking Is Key: The lure of secret societies, cults, and even some religions is rooted in universal desires for belonging and meaning; these are not inherently bad, but require scrutiny, especially where power and secrecy concentrate.
• Question Buzzwords: Phrases like “great” and “good” are often devoid of real meaning and are used to manipulate. Scrutinize the intent and specifics behind slogans and promises.
• Truth Is Complicated: There is rarely an “objective truth”; history, media, even our own memories are pieced together from subjective impressions and inherently colored by bias, error, and manipulation.
• Be Wary of Excessive Friendliness or Praise: Whether in relationships, organizations, or communities, unearned or swift intimacy can be a red flag.
• Seek Your People, But Stay Critical: Find “your brand of insanity,” but remain vigilant to groupthink, manipulation, or exploitation.

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Closing Words (from the Buddha, per Mayim):

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense.”
— [54:01]

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For more enriching episodes examining the intersection of science, spirituality, psychology and humanity, subscribe to Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown.

Transcript

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Foreign.

[Maya Bialik]

Hi, I'm Imbialik.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[Maya Bialik]

And welcome to our breakdown. This is part two of our conversation with professor emeritus of history at the University of Idaho, Dr. Rick Spence. He's an expert in all things secret society. The occult, Illuminati, Hitler's rise to power and how secret societies played a role in that. In this part of our conversation we're going to talk about the CIA. We, we're going to talk about psychological warfare, the difference between misinformation and disinformation and how it's playing out in our current political climate.

[Jonathan Cohen]

We are going to talk about brainwashing cult leaders, why people fall for unbelievable claims and how vague marketing words like great better leave a lot up to interpretation and leave people vulnerable to, to leaders that have other objectives.

[Maya Bialik]

We're also going to break apart what it means to make America great again. And is it the same thing that our founding fathers supposedly believed in as well? And Here is part two of our conversation with Dr. Rick Spence. Break it down.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

You came to this idea. Are secret societies inherently dangerous because they can do things behind a veil of secrecy? They can be. I mean most of them frankly are innocuous. Nothing really happens. If you knew what the secrets were, they really wouldn't be that interesting. But it is. What other purposes, those things, what purpose? A group of like minded people join together in an atmosphere of specialness and secrecy. What kind of other things can those be turned to? So it can become dangerous or it can become nothing. It all comes down to the intention.

[Jonathan Cohen]

This is where I think a lot of people start to try and find links because it's clear that people who are in these societies have trust and have affinity. They're like minded in their thinking. So if you're a government official, maybe in the CIA and you're trying to execute an operation, you may turn to someone who you trust from your secret society and people are looking for the influence and the connection in government institutions as it relates to have they brought people in. Have some of the interests or philosophies or ways of or objectives of the secret societies been propagated into modern day institutions.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Or you create bureaucratic secret societies like the CIA which even though a branch of government functions separately from most of the others. Because remember, what's the whole essence in an intelligence agency? What's everything about secrecy? You exist as an agency to protect the secrets of your government and to acquire the secrets of opposing governments. Everything revolves around secrecy. The other thing which is common in that in intelligence is Deception, the way you do that is you deceive people. You lie. One of the things that I study in my research are secret societies and occultism and spies. Okay? The kind of trifecta of deception, and this is the thing that still amazes me is just the amount that people lie. And here's the truth. Human beings lie constantly about everything, often for no particular reason. Okay, we don't like to admit that, but that is you're lied to all the time. I mean, look at it. We're constantly subjected to advertisements. We're sort of used to that. And in fact. And advertisements are lies. They're never telling you exactly what this product does. They're never being honest away. It is a finessed information which is meant to guide you to a particular thing, which is to buy their product, because to one extent or another, they're lying about what it actually does. See, we're so. We're so inured to advertising that we don't even notice that they're just lies. Again, people that I've looked at and researched, and I said this about one guy that I've been looking at, is that he's always lying except when he's telling the truth. And that was the thing that became so surprising about him, is that I got so used to him just lying about things, you know, lying about his resume, lying about everything. Then you find out that, no, wait here, he actually told the truth about something. And that's kind of spooky because then you've got to figure that, well, every now and then he does tell the truth. And. But when he tells the truth, it sounds almost exactly like when he's lying. And in fact, what he told the truth about would, on the surface, seem to be more improbable about what he lies about and you don't know. And that, because that's the kind of thing that drives my interest in a way, is just trying to figure out, to eventually be able to parse the truth, the little elements of truth from all of the lies that they're embedded in, because that's often what you'll find.

[Maya Bialik]

Do these kinds of secret societies, including the CIA, you know, kind of breed lies and breed sort of a tendency to also fabricate because of this sort of pressure cooker that you're in. You know, I think of a lot of the conspiracy theories, you know, that. That are so, like, prevalent right now. So much of that comes from. I think they're lying to us. This must be the explanation, right? I mean, are we sort of creating A system where no one can trust each other. And that's where some of these conspiracy theories are thriving because we're losing faith in what we previously thought we could trust. And yes, this is a question vaguely about the current administration, which has told us, you're being lied to. Don't listen to this reporter. Don't listen to, you know, this news story. Don't listen to this doctor. You know, truth itself is kind of up for grabs right now. It seems like a perfect breeding ground for more secrecy and more explanations for secrecy.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, everybody tells you that you're being allied to. I mean, I just told you you're being lied to. So what's that? But. But I have no power, so. And you are. That's. I mean, that simple statement is true. You are constantly being allied to about things. But it's. There's another interesting distinction that has to be made between misinformation and its much more insidious sibling disinformation. Misinformation is a mistake. That's like when somebody stops and asks you for directions and you give them what you think of the directions. Then later you realize that you, you know, you were wrong, but, you know, with the best of intentions, you were trying to. Misinformation is a mistake. Disinformation is never a mistake. It is deliberate. And the purpose of disinformation is to usually, as the saying goes, lead the hounds away from the fox. Now, to be good disinformation, this is the tricky part, must be mostly true.

[Maya Bialik]

I'm getting Jeffrey Epstein vibes right now.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

There you go. Disinformation must be mostly true because part of it will check out. You know, this oftentimes we're kind of lazy and we go through and, well, this guy said this, and I checked it out, and yeah, that was true. Now, at that point, you get lulled into a sense of thinking, and you can go through and you can find it. Well, this is true, and this is true, and that's true. So there may be, let's say, 10 key data points, and nine of them are true, but one of them is the lie, and all the other nine are just to sell you the validity of the lie, which is actually the product you're being sold and which you are now swallow along with the other ones. And that will lead you off into another. It will divert your attention, it will corrupt your thinking. It will lead the hounds away from the fox. And that's what the whole goal is. And the thing that you must appreciate is that none of that is an accident. Someone has spent a great deal of time and effort putting this all together with the specific purpose of deceiving you.

[Maya Bialik]

And that's my childhood. How do you sleep at night? How do you trust anyone? Do you have a partner? Do you have friends? I'm asking you specifically.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

I have a wife that I trust as much as I do any human being.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So. Not at all.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

No, no, no, no. That's not. You know that the. The odd thing is, is that you would think that by this time I would be totally paranoid. I'm only slightly paranoid. No, I can be. Even surprise myself in how trusting I can be of people. Look, I corresponded with a guy for years via email, and I knew the fact that he wasn't telling me his real name. Of course, they never do. And my wife would constantly say, I don't understand why you continue to talk with this guy and why you share information with him. And he won't. And he'll admit this, that he won't tell you his real name. There has to be some reason why he's not telling you his real name because if you knew it, you'd run away. And I kind of suspected that was sort of true, but nevertheless I would continue because it was a useful exchange of information, even though I knew that on the other side of it that this individual was not. Was being deliberately. They were hiding something, but I let them hide it. I eventually found out it wasn't nearly as know. There was nothing terribly nefarious about it. A little bit, but not too much. You know, this is the thing you have to do when you meet people is you have to figure out what their intentions are. And that can often take a while. So. And you have to pay attention and not be overly impressed by outward appearances. Okay, here's. Here's one of the first things that will. That will put me off or raise my. My suspicion was people are overly friendly, but it does the same with you as well. I mean, people you don't know who are. I mean, we like people being friendly, but people can be a little.

[Maya Bialik]

Jonathan and I are very suspicious of anyone who's friendly.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Okay. You know? Yeah. I mean, why that usually. That usually takes time. Actual friendship between people takes a certain amount of time and trust to develop. And someone who immediately you.

[Maya Bialik]

Have you not tried Internet dating, Dr. Spence?

[Dr. Rick Spence]

No. No.

[Maya Bialik]

Because within 10 minutes you can be having sex with someone.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Doesn't mean you trust them.

[Maya Bialik]

Doesn't mean you trust them. You trust them enough to exchange body fluids, but that's just this generation it

[Dr. Rick Spence]

all depends what you wanted out of the transaction.

[Maya Bialik]

So that's true. That is true.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Maya Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Maya Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

How does this understanding about lying, deception, where truth is or isn't, relate to how the country and people can understand what's happening in the country now? Because I would say that there's been a level of deception for as long as politics has been around, but now it's harder to form a collective deception because there's more opportunities for. Everyone has a camera. You can document what's happening on a street, you can share information more easily. So a. Someone who is trying to deceive may have a harder time doing that, even if they're doubling down. What does it mean to know that everyone is lying and. But like we have to have some collective truth as a society, which seems to be getting harder and harder.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, you might assume that if you. Everybody has a camera and they're filming everything, then the truth would become more apparent. But I bet that's not true.

[Jonathan Cohen]

No, doesn't seem to be.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

And then of course, you've also now got artificial intelligence, which is very, very good at doing what you can't trust anything mimicking reality. And it's getting better, and it will continue to get better until the point will come, and it will come soon, where what you're seeing, you do not know whether that's real, whether that event ever occurred, or whether that is simply the creation of AI I saw a

[Maya Bialik]

pig jumping on a trampoline last night and I was like, it looks really real. But pigs don't do that, especially with a chicken on their back.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

And that's how we judge things. Does it look real? Does it seem like that would happen in my, in my frame of experience? Have I ever seen that before? You don't know. You never have known. In terms of what it's a matter of now, from an historian standpoint, one of the things that historians are supposed to do is to figure out what actually happened and then try to explain the you know what, why. That's why it's significant that you should know that. Why does it matter whether or not that happened? And this is what is the tricky part is, let's say that there's an event which takes place, an historical event. And one of the things to keep in mind is that you'll often find that you could get witnesses. You know, it's the whole thing about eyewitness testimony. And what's least reliable is eyewitness testimony, because you'll get three people who are at the same. They're all watching the same thing supposedly, but you will not get exactly the same story from each of them. Now, why is that? Well, it could be that, remember, whenever anything is happening, we only see half the world behind you. So if you were looking in this direction and someone else was looking behind you, and you're at the same event, you're not at the same event. You're not focused on exactly the same thing.

[Maya Bialik]

Well, the simulation's not rendering everything. It's only rendering what you can see in your purview.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

So beyond the individual impressions, which vary depending upon how much you were pending and then also how much they. They change over time, because memory isn't perfect. You know, I've. I've now can say that I watched a movie again recently that I watched 50 years ago. There you go. I saw it and I thought I remembered it, and I watched it and I didn't remember it.

[Maya Bialik]

That's the blessing of being older. It's like you're watching it for the

[Dr. Rick Spence]

first time, kind of. Although I'm somehow it and another film that was similar sort of blended into each other. So, see, the memory I had, which was a perfectly good memory, I like, that I now realize, was a lie. It was some sort of internal AI creation that I'd created out of these things. So when you go back and you try to find out what is the particular truth about an event, here's the secret. There is no truth. There never was. There never was any kind of single recorded image. There were, if you're lucky, just all of these people that were there who had slightly different interpretations of what happened. One was looking in this direction, one was looking in another. And then later on, they forgot most of it and their memories blended together. And that's it. That's what you have to work with. There is no actual hard original truth. There are impressions of what happened. And from those impressions, you try to reconstruct as good a picture as you can of what happened, but it's never going to be perfect.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I think that's helpful. People think that there's an objective truth and they're trying to find it, but understanding that it's piecemealed like that makes it hard for things that need objective truth like crime and punishment.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, that's, I think that's, you know, why if you're going to, in this case of a murder case, you, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Now you get in terms reasonable and doubt, but what it means is that if you're not certain, you know, if you've gone through all of this evidence and you've looked at the different testimony and you're still not certain, then you probably shouldn't hang them because you're not entirely certain. If you're absolutely convinced. If there is no, again, what that term reasonable means, because we would have slightly different definitions of that. But you want to be as sure as you can. But it's, you're even in that case still allowing for an unreasonable doubt, aren't you? There might be a little, you know, a little bit, but it's just not enough to over overcome it otherwise. So there is no, there's no there there when it tries to come down to what was the original unadulterated pure truth of the situation, because that never existed outside the fallible framework of human perception and memory. That's it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Explain the difference for us between a secret society and a cult and potentially a religion. Like there seems to be three distinct groups. Religions obviously much more accepted and, and allowed. Cults, seemingly the most dangerous secret societies. We've sort of covered a bit.

[Maya Bialik]

Religions could be argued to be the

[Dr. Rick Spence]

most dangerous cult is the way that it's generally used is that it's a pejorative, it's an insult, and it's essentially used for some sort of minor religion you don't like. Okay. One that you can get away with calling, calling names.

[Maya Bialik]

Well, hold, hold on, hold on, hold on. I mean, when, when I think of a cult though, I think of, you know, a single authority figure around whom everything specifically revolves, that there is a process of indoctrination, there's a process of secrecy that slowly cuts you off from people who don't agree with the way that this cult is behaving. Like, you know, those things do tend to distinguish cults from religions or even from 12 step groups. Right. A lot of people say, oh, 12 step is a cult. There's actually no authority figure, there's no central, you know, so I just want to give us a little bit of like, I think it's like we, you know, we speak to Steve, Steve Husson, he's a friend of the podcast and he's Mr. Cult. So, you know, he would definitely say that, you know, let's say the current administration has more aspects of a cult. Right. Than it does a religion. And those are very distinct from, let's say, a religious structure or other secret societies.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, I was. What I was referring to is the way in which the term is commonly thrown around.

[Maya Bialik]

Got it.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

All right. And people. And people will come. Well, they belong to a cult or this is a cult. And you're always using it in the same way that people use the term fascist. Okay. Even though they probably have, you know, a vague recollection. But it's a nasty name to call someone. So if you want to make a group sound bad, you call it a cult. So how you would define a cult as opposed to occult, which is something else. There's really not any here. Again, you go back to. Go back to the. To the Latin original part of the Romans mean when they use the term cultus. And in its original form, it basically meant to worship or to adore something. It was simply a form of worship. Remember, the Romans had all kinds of gods and different sort of sects devoted to them. So that may. But then it also had the meaning of cultivation, same root, of growing, of tending, of nurturing. There's also this idea of nurturing as you would a plant, even in terms of a kind of instruction. So even in terms of the original Roman use, the word had different kind of vague meanings as it's since gone on later on. By the time you get to 16th, 17th century, it had basically come to mean any religious sect or a religious practice. There wasn't anything good or bad about it. It was just a particular practice which someone had. And I think in French, it still pretty much has that meaning in terms of a cult is a religious sect in some way. But the way that we've come to think about it today, it tends to be there's almost always some spiritual or religious practice which is involved in it. But Mayim, you hit upon what is one. I think one of the key signifiers of a cult is what's called excess devotion, okay? That there's some sort of leader and that that leader is the recipient of what could be termed by those on the outside, excessive devotion. People see, first of all, this person seems to have absolute control. They are in unquestioned authority, and everybody does what they say. You know, generally speaking, at least since the 14th century, even popes haven't gotten away with that. I mean, there's always someone arguing with them. But within a cult, you know, you look at. Is. Is there some person in charge. And does this person basically have an almost. Well, let's cut to the quick. Have they become the little God of this group? Does their authority carry all kinds of. Here's one of the first places. When I was in the 70s, I was a grad student UC Santa Barbara. And, you know, nice place on the coast, full of cults. But there were a couple of people that I knew, and they had joined one of these groups. They started out going to, what, yoga classes. That sounds pretty simple. Gateway to a call. And from that, in this case. In this case, it was, yeah, they started going to yoga classes, and then somehow their yoga instructor ended up becoming their sort of personal God. And then they're explaining to me with. With great enthusiasm how they're. How he's instructed them to sell all of their belongings and turn over everything they own to him.

[Maya Bialik]

I've seen that documentary, too.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Yeah. Okay. And I'm listening to this. Now, keep in mind, both of these people are college educated, which I've also learned is no guarantee against anything. In fact, it may make you even more vulnerable. And I can remember what I said to them, which is that, have you lost your minds? I mean, what. What's. What's the matter with you? Why. Why would you do that? I. I could not comprehend. This is probably one of the whole trajectory. My future research is trying to figure out what the hell those people were doing.

[Maya Bialik]

For the same reason that people have secret societies. Everyone wants to belong, and everyone wants to feel special, and everyone wants to feel that they matter on this planet that is hurling through space in a universe among universes. I mean, to me, it's like it's so human to want this. And it looked like one thing in 1776, and it looks like another thing now, but it's all kind of the same thing. We just. We want to be wanted, and we want to be important. Right. We want to belong.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

We want to. You know. But it comes back to, like, this question. Why the robes and the owl in the case?

[Maya Bialik]

It's fun.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Why does belonging. Okay, you've now taken all of your money, you sold your car, and transferred your wife's trust fund to the. To this guy, and he's using this money. And, oh, by the way, you're also working in the cult businesses for free.

[Maya Bialik]

Right.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

And. And he's living on a yacht, which he's bought. This really happened, by the way. He's living on a yacht, which he's bought with your money and everyone else's money.

[Maya Bialik]

Correct.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

And I'm Looking, is it, you know, why does your spiritual enlightenment have to be with you? Just what appeared to me being obviously taken advantage of by a charlatan. Okay, you're being, you're being deceived and they didn't see that way. They thought they were getting something out of it. They seem to be really happy.

[Maya Bialik]

Okay.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Maya Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again.

[Maya Bialik]

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[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, it presupposes that there is a mission in this somewhere. I think there's a mission in the Illuminati. In Adam Weishau's Illuminati, there was a clear mission. He created this group with the idea. What did he want to do? He declared it very simply. We are going to undermine and destroy all existing political and religious order, and we are going to replace them with a new order based upon an enlightened elite. And what was the ultimate goal of this, the great thing that every, that all the little people were going to get out of it? We are going to make people happy and free, but first we must make them good.

[Maya Bialik]

No, I don't like any of those words. Happy, free, good.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, see, the words mean nothing. We're going to make them happy and free, which doesn't explain, but we're going to make them. See, there's that whole idea of good men into better men. We're going to make people happy by making them good. But it just leaves wide open what the definition of any of those terms would be.

[Maya Bialik]

You know what? I'm gonna throw this at you. Make america Great again. Dr. Spence?

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Yes. What does great mean? What. What would that look like?

[Maya Bialik]

I can tell you what it means. It means using. Using citizens to arrest other citizens. It means taking away rights of the press. It means taking away free speech. Is that greatness? I don't know. Project 2025, this was the, the blueprint for greatness.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

When words like great or good are used in a slogan, what that basically means is that they're meaningless. It has no particular meaning. It's just. It's a buzzword. It's. It's an advertising term.

[Maya Bialik]

Well, they got a lot of hats that say it.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Okay, so like that, this, you know that the, the, the new tide is better than it was. Well, there's some. Was there something bad about it before? How is it better specifically?

[Maya Bialik]

But that's capitalism. Also. We need to constantly outdo what you already spent all of your money on so that we can get you to spend it on something else. Right?

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, we want you to buy the same thing over and over again. A lot of this is really sort of messing around with people's concept of reality. This is one of the things I've heard is that one of the things the Internet has done is that by creating all of these kind of echo chambers and where every group finds their own community look. And that's one of the things it can do. I'm not necessarily sure that all human communities really need to exist. Okay. Because sometimes you can get like minded people together and it all depends what they're like minded to do. Do you ever think about that? What is the like mindedness?

[Maya Bialik]

Well, but I mean if you look at the history, and I'd hate to throw religion under the bus because I am, you know, part of an ethnic and religious community, but the entire, you know, presupposition of religion was we have the best way, we have the best God, we have the best answers, we have the way to heaven. Right. And for, for all of history this has been this conversation, right? What's the best way to get you salvation? What's the best way to get you happy, free and good in the next world? Right. So we're, we're kind of all living in a, in a juggling of this

[Dr. Rick Spence]

or should you be happy, free and good in this world? Well, here's, here's a troubling thing I didn't. But it's to add to the other troubling thing. It's going to sound like I'm attacking religion, which I'm not really, but somebody else is, but I'm going to repeat comes down to this difference. What's the difference between a religion and a cult? Well, it was once said that in a culture there is always someone at or near the top that knows it's a scam, in a religion that person is dead. It's worth thinking about.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It can also be said that though in a cult the person who may be at the top may be deluded enough to believe that their psychotic manic episodes are actually real and they are leading people towards some kind of salvation or mass suicide.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Yeah. I mean can people become, can you come to believe your own bullshit? Yes, all too easily. That's, that's a lot of what happens. I think a lot of history is just that. But although there's usually someone, I'm going to take a particular group here. Have either one of you seen a documentary called Wild Wild country of Amazing?

[Maya Bialik]

Yeah, it was my Halloween costume that year. Of course.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Well, if you look at that particular group, you know, you've, you've got the Baguan Osho. Yeah, I don't think you can, you know, it's pretty clear who's actually the person who knows? The whole thing is a scam. That is Sheila. Sheila the second. The second in comm. She's running the whole thing. I mean, this is a guy who controls people by not talking to them. I mean, this is. I'm. I've apparently just got bored of what I'm talking about, and I'm not going to go on, so. But you can see why I find this fascinating. I mean, I'm going to move to a small place in Oregon and wear orange clothes and give all of my money to this guy who doesn't talk to me, and I'm going to be happy about that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

First of all, his work and his writing is still circulating around the world. There are libraries and organizations all, like, globally, in almost every country that are teaching his philosophy. And people swear by there being some nature of enlightenment in his poetry, in his writing. And so potentially there's a message in there that was eventually corrupted by the cult in the organization that led people to be drawn to him, probably, maybe

[Dr. Rick Spence]

kind of how many more qualifying terms you would. You know, that's one possibility. Or it was all BS in the beginning, and then people just rationalized the BS and, you know, nobody likes to. By the way, the. The. The couple I mentioned who had given all their money to the guy who bought a yacht with it, did eventually fall out with the group, did eventually come to the conclusion that they had perhaps been misled. But of course, it was. It was all the fault of other people who took advantage of them. It wasn't just because they were being stupid.

[Maya Bialik]

What Steve Husson talks about is that President Trump is actually a perfect example of a cult mentality surrounding a figure that has been given a disproportionate amount of power. And it's a little bit like the emperor wears no clothes. And, you know, like, there's certain aspects of it that no matter who you voted for, what you believe in, there's certain aspects of this that it feels a little bit like we're living in a parallel universe. Like, you can't just make up words and use them, but apparently you can. You know, this is the President of the United States. Like you, he is using a vocabulary of words that is so tiny. And everyone's like, he is a brilliant orator. Like, what is happening. That, to me, feels like a cult mentality. Meaning I'm willing to say we have a flawed leader or we have a leader who chooses to speak in a way that my children are not allowed to speak at my dinner table. But for everyone to sort of be like he's this magical mystical creature and like we are saved and he's the next coming of Christ. Right? Like that feels like something has been swept up that just doesn't feel. It just doesn't feel anything relating to normal.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

It's not. Well, I mean, I want to get too partisan this, but someone, I was talking to him a long ago who was going to this whole thing about that Donald Trump was simply playing, I think they put it, he was playing, you know, fifth five dimensional chess. Okay, Fourth dimension was enough. But somehow he was. And that the reason why what he was saying didn't seem to make any sense was because basically I and other people were just too really stupid to understand this because he's playing at such a higher level, he can't comprehend it. Well, it's either that or my counter to it was is that it makes absolutely no sense at all. And you're trying to explain nonsense, you're trying to take nonsense and turn it into science.

[Maya Bialik]

If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a cart.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So Scott Galloway says he's eating the chess pieces.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

The thing is that we humans, and I'm including myself in this because I'm one of them, we do this stuff all the time and we've always done it. And it is a. It's just part of our habit. We give all of our stuff away to some guy who goes and buys a yacht with it. Okay. And then later we kind of wonder, well, how did that happen? Okay, who did something to me that that would happen? You know, I think we expect more out of ourselves than we actually tend to get. I think it was Winston Churchill. Okay? Because Churchill had something to say about everything, so why not? Who said that he came to his estimate of people was that everybody is a little mad about something. He didn't mean angry, he meant that they were crazy. You know, and this, I've tried this out in an experiment is that, you know, this is the thing with people. Most people most of the time are polite and friendly. I mean, you know, you go into a, do a transaction, you go buy food, what are you doing? And your general exchange is polite and friendly because that's the easiest way for these things. And they seem normal. Most people when you meet them, seem pretty normal. It's the roommate test. Perhaps this has happened to you. You decide you're going to live in this abode with this person and initially they seem to be normal.

[Maya Bialik]

You're describing me and Jonathan.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

After a certain period of time, you realize that you're living with a crazy person. Okay. And most people are like that. I mean, you marry them sometimes, you know, they're normal for the most part. But then at some level, there's some point people are nice and reasonable, insane, until suddenly they're not.

[Maya Bialik]

You bring up pomegranate juice brands and they lose their mind.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Yeah. It's just something that they're going to go off on. So, yeah, I think that most people, I won't say everyone, but I think that most people, present company excepted, certainly are on some level insane about something that at a certain point they will just lose all rationality and just go nuts about it. And for the most part, you know, it's a measure of not whether people are insane or sane, but just how insane you are, how widespread that has been. And that's just this way of having some sort of skewed sense of reality. But that's the world we live in. And that's what kind of makes it scary, also makes it interesting until it kills you.

[Maya Bialik]

And on that note, we say thank you for joining us.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I mean, my takeaway here is find the people who are crazy about the things that you're crazy about in a similar way that you're crazy. And hopefully there's some symmetry there.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Yes.

[Maya Bialik]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Seek like minded people who share your brand of insanity, swear each other to secrecy, and then take over the world for the greater benefit of everyone. There you go.

[Maya Bialik]

Thank you, Dr. Spence, it's really a pleasure talking to you.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

Thank you. Pleasure talking to you as well.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Truth is very complicated and what I found very comforting is that you are on the front lines investigating what is true, what is not true, watching every pig on the Internet to make sure that they can jump on a trampoline or not, and identifying what is fake news and what is real. And I just, I'm comforted by the fact that you're out there doing that work.

[Maya Bialik]

I'm patrolling. And I also like a lot of crazy, weird things. Like visually, I like animals who shouldn't be friends, being friends. But I feel like the era of trusting, amazing thing, it's over. My mother once sent me and both my kids a picture of an insect that looked like a lotus flower. And picture the most beautiful lotus flower of your psychedelic dreams. It was that with legs and a face. And she was like, can you believe that God made this? And we were all like, absolutely not.

[Jonathan Cohen]

The Internet made it.

[Maya Bialik]

But what if it's not that easy to tell? And no joke about the pig on the trampoline. I. I Came at it with a critical eye. The only reason I know that it's not real is because I decided that it wasn't real. Everything else looked 100% accurate. Six months ago, when I was looking at some of those AI things and it was like, I have seven fingers. I was like, I know that's not real. They fixed that. Everybody's fingers look fine. It's all a mess.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I was with the video until you told me there was a chicken on the pig's back. That might have given it away. What about the fact that the video that was uploaded by Trump about the med beds and everyone gets a med bed card and it was like a Fox, Fox News segment where everyone is going to be regenerated by this amazing technology that can regrow limbs. Had you, had you not included the regrow limbs part, maybe it can happen.

[Maya Bialik]

I, we studied some crazy in grad school.

[Jonathan Cohen]

There's just this bed and it has all this technology that can help repair your illness. Like that's almost believable.

[Maya Bialik]

What I, what I really liked about talking to Dr. Spencer, you know, was how much overlap there is between conversations about secrecy, deception, lies, and really kind of like intention. Right? What. And that seemed to be what is the most elusive. And I kept wanting him to answer, I want to know, like, oh, the Freemasons wanted to kill all the indigenous people and, you know, have world domination or take over England, you know, or the Illuminati wanted to. I don't know enough. My kids are always like, it's the Illuminati. But once he described the Illuminati, yeah, it's an elitist, intellectual, kind of overlord sort of secret society. Right. I want to know what they want to do. But it seems that what we need to sort of come away from this with. And it's a much larger conversation than we could even get to with Dr. Spencer, is that through all of history. And we talked about this with Brian Murarescu. If you want to study the Dionysian, you know, the original secret societies, which in many cases were run by women who we would classify as witches, which got co opted by. I sound like such a mouthpiece. The patriarchal religious organizations that started taking over these things, left the organic spaces and became the domain of what male society in many cases determined. If you think about how the women's health care used to be the purview of other women and of midwives. Right. It got taken over. I mean, to me, this is part of what these societies. I don't mean to sound so paranoid, but that's part of what these societies are. And, and, you know, I didn't want to start fighting with Dr. Spence, but I think it's. It should be underlined that this is a dude thing. This is something that men like to do. I think of the. What are the men's therapy groups. They're going, they're drumming at the moon, and maybe it's great. I know there's beautiful wounded warriors projects, you know, that are helping men connect emotionally. I'm not saying that's a secret society, but I think the notion that there are these spaces that historically men are carving out, I think it's very significant. And it becomes a sort of tribal identity. Right? We do this, they do that. We don't do this, they don't do that, or our team against theirs, or we have goodness. We know how to make you good, we know how to make you obedient, we know how to make you a good husband. Whatever it is. There's all these different ways, and maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's a modern tribalism.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I. I don't know modern tribalism, but I think of it a little bit more in terms of the mandate or purview of the leadership that are the organizing principles of the organization. And when you have things like define good, it's defined good to what end? Like, maybe it's just pure Christian values of being a better husband and being there for your wife and raising your children with, you know, whatever religious teachings that they hold true.

[Maya Bialik]

I also want to clarify that when you talk about kind of good Christian values, you're not talking about that there's one absolute way to, let's say, feel about other religions or about LGBTQ community, like anything like that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

No, I'm saying that the organizations believe in their version of values, and therefore those versions, when brought and shared by the community or the organization, are good or the right way. So everyone has their perspective. And it's like what, what Dr. Spence said about collecting like minded people and then spreading those value systems. But I think, you know, when you talk about the Bohemian Club, while it can't be said that they choose the president, again, this is just the Show Billions. I'm not an expert in this, but the Show Billions dramatized this scene in the woods where a potential presidential candidate goes to try out for the elite. And during his tryout, he's like, you know, it's not that they choose the president, but like, the last 12 presidents have all gone there, been knighted, and accepted and then go on to win the presidency. So what is control and influence? What is cause and effect? And what is just coincidence that it happens to be that these organizations have all these places of influence?

[Maya Bialik]

Yeah. Who rules America, apparently? See, these secret societies know, what do

[Jonathan Cohen]

you think people should take away from this episode? Like, I'm thinking about the summary, the wrap up, and I kind of liked his wrap up, which is that, you know, there are all these pockets of people, and people form these little tribes and communities, and each one has the way that they think better should be, and that you should form the ones that are closest to you. I also really like the notion that everyone is their version of crazy. We think, oh, that person's crazy, and we use it as derogatory slang. But what's really happening is that we're all peculiar in our own way and find people who match your peculiarity.

[Maya Bialik]

I think that's a very nice takeaway. I mean, I think that a larger takeaway, you know, would be to behave cautiously around anyone who is amassing a large amount of power. And I think be careful about people who are receiving a tremendous amount of praise without a lot of questioning of some of the deeper meaning behind what they're trying to implement. And I'm literally thinking of, you know, gurus. I'm thinking of the documentaries I've seen where there's an environment where you don't question and where you heap praise and where you start giving up your own rights, your own time. A lot of cults in particular, people are asked to work without pay because it's for the good of the organization. It happens in certain religious communities as well. Be wary, be careful. You know, whenever I talk to friends also who are dating. Right. Or using apps, anytime someone that you barely know is telling you how amazing you are, ladies, that's a red flag. Gentlemen, as well, that's a red flag. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And if some guru or teacher or meditation instructor is telling you to give them all your money and stop speaking to people that you know and love, be cautious.

[Maya Bialik]

I think the place to end would be, I'd say one of my most favorite quotes from Buddha. And I looked up on fake Buddha quotes. Is this real? Believe nothing no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. The Buddha said that believe nothing no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. So we were given reason and common sense and we get to use it. So yeah. Jonathan, tell the people where to get more of us.

[Jonathan Cohen]

If you want to explore science and spirituality and be amongst like minded people who are sharing your brand of crazy, come join us on Substack. Maybe Alex Breakdown on Substack Our Breaker community is growing. Come be a part of it.

[Maya Bialik]

From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

[Dr. Rick Spence]

It's Maya Bialik's breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two on fiction and now she's gonna break down. It's a breakdown. She's gonna break it down.