← Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Charged With Murder at 19, Sentenced to 40 years, and Came Out Freer Than Most People Will Ever Be — Shaka Senghor on Forgiveness, Shame, and Escaping the Prisons Nobody Talks About
01:00:39
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- [00:00]
Shaka Senghor
I was certain that I was going to die in prison. When I was 17 years old, I got shot multiple times. I wasn't safe unless I had a gun. Found myself in conflict and I fired four shots that caused a man's death. I was sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison.
- [00:15]
Mayim Bialik
Shaka Sangar, best selling author and globally recognized resilience expert, shares how we can free ourselves from the invisible prisons we find ourselves in.
- [00:24]
Shaka Senghor
When I was 13 years old, I ran away and I found myself seduced into drug culture. Crack cocaine. I spent a total of seven years in solitary confinement. I fell into depression. I wouldn't have survived that without being literate. I was reading all of these philosophy books, started journaling and asking these hard questions like how did my life end up here? I taught myself how to publish a book from prison. If I can get through the pain of the moment, I can come out on the other side of anything. I'm going to get out of here. Society has got us into a space where we're like, I can't talk about my shame. No, that's your hidden prison. You deserve to get out of that too. We're all deserv are the best of what it means to be human.
- [01:03]
Mayim Bialik
Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car.
- [01:07]
Shaka Senghor
Was she brave?
- [01:08]
Mayim Bialik
She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required.
- [01:15]
Shaka Senghor
Did you have to fight a dragon?
- [01:16]
Mayim Bialik
Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ollie's science bag support is made with a blend of melatonin and L theanine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep solutions for the whole family@ollie.com that's O L L Y dot com. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.
- [02:03]
Jonathan Cohen
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
- [02:04]
Mayim Bialik
And welcome to our breakdown. What are the prisons that we are entrapped in? You might not be thinking of a literal prison, but the prisons of anger, of shame, a lack of forgiveness, a lack of hope, a lack of joy. We're going to be speaking to someone today whose transformation from someone solitary confinement to the C suite is absolutely inspirational. We're talking with Shaka Senghor, talking about his book, how to be a Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons. And he's a globally recognized resilience expert. He's inspired leaders at global organizations. He's written three books. And we're gonna be talking about how to be free. I don't know that I can communicate the journey that Shaka has been on. What he did to get into prison, what it was like to be there for 19 years, including seven years in solitary confinement, and what inspired him to not only free himself, but teach others and guide others on how to free ourselves from the prisons that we keep ourselves in. Sometimes without even knowing it.
- [03:17]
Jonathan Cohen
This is an unbelievable conversation. And for anyone who wants to imagine a life different than they're living right now, this is an episode that you can't miss.
- [03:28]
Mayim Bialik
We are so excited to welcome in person to the Breakdown, Shaka Senghor. Shaka, welcome. Break it down.
- [03:36]
Shaka Senghor
Hey. I'm so excited to be here. Truly an honor, and thank y' all for having me. It's so dope.
- [03:41]
Mayim Bialik
We're. We're very eager to talk to you. Obviously, how to be a Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons has so, so many incredible nuggets of goodness which we will get to. You talk a bit about the framework of your story in this book. Although this isn't your first book for people who may not know who you are, I'm gonna give you the opportunity to kind of lay it out for people so they understand the framework with which we're gonna be talking about.
- [04:09]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, no, that's a great, great, great question. Who is Shaka Singor? So I grew up in the city of Detroit in a household that, on the outside looking in, Lily was, like, the model for, like, working class America, black, you know, middle class America, tree lined streets, you know, beautiful brick bungalows. And, you know, a community, a real community, you know, before things changed. But on the inside of our household, there was just, like, a lot of physical abuse and a lot of emotional abuse. And when I was about 13 years old, I ran away. And I thought that, you know, someone would see this little, handsome, smart little kid and, like, take me in and just wrap me in a warmth that I believe all children are deserving of. And sadly and unfortunately, that didn't happen. And like many young kids, I found myself seduced into the drug culture and specifically, like, crack cocaine. This is when crack first like invaded the Midwest. We didn't even know what. Clearly I did not know. I was like a naive kid. But I don't think anybody in our community, community knew what, you know, lay ahead of us and the devastation that would happen within that culture. But, you know, first six months in, I experienced like all the horrors of the culture. You know, I was robbed at gunpoint, I was beaten nearly to death, my childhood friend was murdered. And then I became addicted to crack cocaine. And that was one of the, one of the things when I look back on my life because I talk a lot about resilience, I was able to quit that addiction just cold turkey. And largely because it was very, it was a very kid oriented decision. I was like, I need to make money because I like cool sneakers and I can't do that if I'm like smoking crack. So. But I stayed in that culture. And then when I was 17 years old, I got shot multiple times. And when I got shot, you know, I'll never forget what that experience was like, of like waiting on an ambulance that never came. And my friend happened to take me to the hospital and then going into the hospital and just being treated like, you know, a car in a factory. They extracted two bullets, left one bullet in, patched me up, and like, literally within a couple of days I was like back in my neighborhood. And at that time I didn't, I didn't understand, I didn't have language for all the things that was happening inside of me. But I remember this moment, you know, very vividly. A couple of days after I'm back in the neighborhood, I'm on crutches and still hanging out with my friends. And we were just like on a corner. And when I got shot, the shooter was driving a car. And so I'm hanging out on this corner and a car is coming up the block. And I just remember my body just like shaking, like, and I'm like. And I can't tell my friends that like now, you know, when I see cars, I don't think of like somebody just driving through the neighborhood. Like, I feel all this anxiety. You know, we didn't have language for anxiety back then, but, or PTSD or ptsd. And you know, the worst thing that happened as a result of that is the story. I started to tell myself that I wasn't safe unless I had a gun. And if I found myself in conflict, I would shoot first as opposed to risking being shot. And 16 months later, I got into a conflict about 2 in the morning. This was July 1991. And the conflict escalated. And there was a moment where I turned to walk away, and I didn't. And I turned and fired what turned out to be four shots that tragically caused a man's death. I was subsequently arrested. I was charged with open murder, and I was sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison. I was one month into my 19th birthday when I got arrested. And I remember just being in a courtroom and thinking, like, my life is over. You know, like, at 19, you can't even see two weeks down the line, let alone, like, two decades. And so in that moment, I just was like, I gotta serve time. And within the serving of time, I'm just angry, I'm bitter, and I'm just getting in tons of trouble. And that's literally how my journey in prison started.
- [08:18]
Mayim Bialik
When you were shot, was there ever a thought of, this is the time to try and pivot, or were there no options at that point for you to try and even turn away?
- [08:31]
Shaka Senghor
That's a great question. You know, I talk to a lot of young men who are in environments where gun violence is, like, extremely high. And myself, I was the third of my mother's children to get shot. And I remember my older brother got shot. Like, we had. It felt like a family crisis in that moment. And I think that was the last stage where I ever felt like gun violence felt like a crisis. And then it became normal. So, like, so many of my friends have been shot have been murdered. And so in that moment, you know, there was a couple of things that happened when I was in the hospital. Like, I remember the officers coming in and being like, who shot you? And I was like, I. I don't know. I genuinely didn't know. If I knew, I probably. I definitely would not have said anything. Like, I was living a very particular lifestyle. But their reaction to that, like, stuck with me, like this just kind of anger and this kind of blame the victim. You know, it's like, you're the reason why this has happened. I'm like, dude, I'm. I'm a kid. I got shot. You know, I was 17 years old, and I. I wish there was an intervention at that time. I think if someone would have said, hey, you should talk to somebody, or here's somebody you could talk to, or here's what you're feeling, and all the things. And maybe that would have been opportunity for a pivot, but because it was just like, patch up, you're back in it. And I had already seen that playbook. You know, my older brother was Shot. I was actually in a car when my second oldest brother got shot. I was in the passenger seat. He was driving. This guy shot through the car window, and he was hit. And, you know, and it was just like he went to the hospital, patched up, and he was home a couple of days. And so I wish there was a moment like that that I can identify, but I don't see one in that story.
- [10:20]
Mayim Bialik
There's one thing you talk about, and this is something that, you know, those of us who feel very strongly that the system is completely broken and that prison is not any system of rehabilitation, and it actually creates more pain and suffering than even was occurring when people are sent in. You know, one of the things you talk about is that your entire life is set in motion based on the worst decision you ever made.
- [10:49]
Shaka Senghor
Absolutely.
- [10:50]
Mayim Bialik
And I don't. You know, this is the stuff that for many people, we hear about these things in the news, or you see it in a TV movie or a movie, and it's very easy to gloss over. But this is not just your experience. This is the experience in particular of men of color all over this country, in particular.
- [11:08]
Shaka Senghor
Absolutely.
- [11:10]
Mayim Bialik
What does that mean when you are right about 19 and you have this possibility of being in prison for 40 years? How do you conceptualize that?
- [11:22]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, I conceptualize it in the most destructive way possible is like, my life is over, so why not just further destroy what's left? Like, I was. I was certain that I was going to die in prison. Like, that was the thing that I had. Just accept it. You know, when I got that sentence and, you know, getting that sentence, there's this moment where it's almost like, you know, you. You imagine, like, you had this file cabin, like this file cabinet of life, right? And you just have all these folders, and, like, that's what it felt like. It's like, okay, let me close this folder. Friends are going, girlfriend is gone. I got a baby on the way. I won't be there for parents, you know, so you just started mentally, like, I started to really shut down feelings of, like, having attachment to anything. And, you know, it's a very volatile environment. Like, I, you know, I went into. In the county jail. I mean, I was. I tried to escape from the county jail. That was my first, like. That was my first real rebellion against the system, was like, all right, well, let me just try to break out first.
- [12:27]
Mayim Bialik
Did you try and break out, like, in a laundry basket like in the movies?
- [12:30]
Shaka Senghor
No. So it was actually. It was a pretty. Pretty daring and kind of ridiculous escape attempt. But what happened was this guy, he was in the cell block with us. And this is an old jail, so things are broken. He finds this is like broken pipe and he smuggles it black to the tier. And he, you know, we're in the cell talking and he pulls out this pipe and he's like, I'm gonna escape. And he's like, you know, I'm gonna hit the officer in the head. And then I'm gonna take the uniform and I'm gonna let everybody out. And I'm like, dude, that is definitely not going to work. So I was like, I have a better idea. I was like, well, what if we just start to like, collect as many sheets as we can and we'll take this pole so we can pop the doors on ourselves. And basically you just take a torn sheet, you tie a knot, push the knot under the door, pull it up into the door jamb, and you just kind of rock it. And then it eventually pops open.
- [13:21]
Mayim Bialik
You'd think it would be harder to open.
- [13:23]
Shaka Senghor
Oh no, we would be out on the cell block like in the middle of the night, just because that's back then you could smoke inside the buildings. And the only way we can get a light, there's like this lighter on a thing. So we would pop the cells all the time and we called it shaking out. Cause you like shake the doors and eventually they pop open. And so I was like, if we gather these sheets, then we just take the pole and we break the window at the tier and we bend the beam. Now, you know, we're not the smartest at this time in terms of like engineering. And so these beams are encased in like this, this aluminum looking thing, but inside it's like more beams. So we break the window out first. We start breaking the window out the glass. And then we started to bend what we thought was bending the beam. It was really just bending the casing. And there's a moment when I'm like trying to see if I can fit out, but the thing is not really bending. And then there's a beam of light that just hits the window. And you can hear, like, you can't really hear what this person is saying because we're so far up. But basically we're like, they're like, you know, we're busted. And so we all scramble back to ourselves. And it took them probably about a half hour to figure out which cell block we were in that was we was trying to break out of. And they came in like gangbusters. You know, snatching everybody out, roughing us up a little bit. And yeah, that was, that was the attempt. When I got out of prison, I went back and I looked to just see like where we were at, like how far we really were up because we were on the sixth floor. But the sixth floor don't really actually start to like because the building is, they don't count the other floors. We probably was about 12 floors up. And I'm like, we definitely did not have enough seats. I was going to fall to my death. Like, it's ridiculous.
- [15:03]
Jonathan Cohen
Also, where are you going after that?
- [15:05]
Shaka Senghor
You know, that's the thing about being young is that your plans don't kind of extend super far.
- [15:10]
Jonathan Cohen
Yeah.
- [15:11]
Shaka Senghor
Or have any like rational, you know, processing there. Like, oh, you're definitely, once you get out, you're getting arrested. My dad didn't work far so I think I had ideas like I'll go and get the car for my dad and just be back in the neighborhood. But yeah, that didn't, that didn't happen. So yeah.
- [15:30]
Mayim Bialik
So you've just mind.
- [15:31]
Jonathan Cohen
Bialix Breakdown is brought to you by Rula.
- [15:33]
Mayim Bialik
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- [16:49]
Jonathan Cohen
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- [16:55]
Mayim Bialik
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- [17:39]
Jonathan Cohen
I especially like the mint chocolate chip. That's really really good. But yeah, I there's never a bad
- [17:45]
Mayim Bialik
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- [18:11]
Jonathan Cohen
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- [18:14]
Mayim Bialik
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- [20:38]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, the early years I went in, I was rebellious. You know, I was getting into all type of trouble. I accumulated, I think, a total of 36 misconducts, like, within my first five years. And they ranged from everything dangerous, contraband, drug, you know, drug trafficking, you know, assault on inmates, assault on officer. I was just like, in the thing I went. The first prison I went to was called the Michigan Reformatory, was called the gladiator school. So every day there's a fight. Every day somebody's getting stabbed. It's like, it's a very volatile environment. And just being thrown into that world of chaos was just like, all right, I gotta survive. Like, it's either lion or lamb, which one you want to be. And so, you know, just got into that space of conflicts. And, you know, basketball courts, always fights, always happening. But within that first year, I had what I call, like, my first miracle where I met these, I had my security level increase to maximum security. So I turned 20 years old in maximum. I'm like, one of the youngest guys at the prison at the time. The warden is just like, you're like, you're so rebellious. You're like, we just Gonna. You can't even get a job here. You just, like, you always into something. But I can go to the library. And so I would go. I was researching, like, how to appeal my case, and then I met these, you know, these older gentlemen, and they're the most incredible mentors that I've ever had. And they were serving life sentences, and they would say to me, like, you're gonna get an opportunity to get out one day. And I would be, like, going on over here. What are you talking about? Like, I'm 19. I'm never getting out of this place. And they just were. They were so strategic, and so just, like, their ability to figure out a way to reach young people was just unparalleled. And how they got to me really was through books. I had met this one guy, and he had wrote a book. It was like 12 pages, handwritten book. It was the most fascinating story about just his neighborhood. And it was, you know, it was familiar to me. And he was like, you know, go to the library and look up Donald Goins, this. This writer who writes these gritty city books. He served time. He had actually served time in Michigan, and he is from Detroit. So I go over there and I get these books, and mine is just blown. It's. I mean, it's. They're super graphic. They're super inner city, and. But it has a lot of social commentary, has a lot of this kind of underbelly. And they were like, short reads. Like, you know, the books might be 200 pages, you read them in a day. But these men, they started to challenge how I thought about life. And they would give me books, and then when I would come back, they would just, like, ask me a question. It was like these intense interrogations.
- [23:21]
Mayim Bialik
It was a book club.
- [23:22]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, basically. Basically. And part of it was that they didn't think I was reading all the books because I read fast. And so, you know, what I tell people is that I was super lucky to be literate in an environment where the average reading grade level was third grade. And I think there was something about that that was intriguing to these guys, that I was one of the young men who could read. And we would have these intense debates about everything, culture, world history, philosophy. But I was still rebelling against myself. You know, I had read Malcolm X's autobiography, and that was like, one of those moments of, like, there is a possibility that there can be something different. But I just wasn't ready. Like, I was so hurt. I was so. Just disappointed with my life outcomes. You know, I Didn't I didn't. I never imagined that I would be in prison. You know, in my conscious mind, I never thought, like, oh, my life would end here. And so I just. I got into a ton of trouble and. But there was all these little moments where something was happening to push me towards something different. And I was just fighting it, you know, I was fighting it, though, kicking and screaming, you know, kind of tell people it's like the cartoons, remember you had a angel on one shoulder, a little devil on one shoulder, and Malcolm X was kind of like that angel, like, yo, you can actually have a different life outcome. But the old me was like, nah, I'm sure I'm gonna die in this environment.
- [24:41]
Mayim Bialik
There's so many statistics here that I think are important. Three out of five incarcerated individuals are illiterate. I mean, this like, breaks my heart. 70% of people in prisons read below a fourth grade level. Those who remain illiterate have a 70% chance of returning to prison. Only 6% of the people behind bars are receiving reading education. People who gain literacy in prison have a 16%. Am I pronouncing this right? Recidivism rate.
- [25:12]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [25:12]
Mayim Bialik
So that means the more literacy, right, you have, the less chance that you will end up back in prison. And I think most importantly, 70% of banned books are educational or self help.
- [25:26]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Mayim Bialik
And it's funny because my son's school this week is doing a book drive for women in prison.
- [25:31]
Shaka Senghor
Oh, wow.
- [25:32]
Mayim Bialik
And I was looking at the list and I was thinking, like, these are the books I want, you know, to be able to send to empower women. But the notion also that there are so many books that they have decided should not be given, it's astounding. I love that not only reading, but writing was also sort of part of your transformation. Before we get there, though, tell us about some of the kind of the aspects of solitary confinement, what that sort of challenged in you and what it brought out in terms of this transformation you underwent.
- [26:10]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, it is. It is what I describe solitary confinement as most barbaric and inhumane thing that we allow to happen on our watch. Consciously and largely because we've looked away from it. Whether, you know, we're aware that we're looking away from it, or whether it's just been concealed from us in such a manner to where we don't even know what actually happens. And so it's one of the reasons I've written extensively about that experience. I spent a total of seven years in solitary confinement, the longest period of time was four and a half years straight from 1999 to 2000, I think it was 2004. And it was, it was the hardest part of my life to wake up in this environment and see just a level of madness and cruelty. A lot of the men in that environment had pre existing mental health challenges, everything from schizophrenia to bipolar disorder. And to see, you know, officers pile on, you know, to these men and to see them punished because their brain doesn't work the way that our brains work, that was part of the, that was probably the hardest thing to, you know, bear witness to. And so we rebelled a lot. We were just like, whenever the officers were being like overly cruel to somebody who we knew couldn't defend themselves, we would like flood the tear or we would just beat on, you know, doors and toilets and lockers. So it was always some form of like rebellion happening, some form of like, you know, chaos. And the goon squad coming to extract people from the sales. And the, the hardest thing I experienced in there was there's a guy about three or four sales over who set himself on fire. And they took him out of the cell and they brought him back like two days later. And probably within a week, like he burned himself up like really bad. And it was because he was being harassed every day. I, I think he was, I'm not even sure if he was homosexual because I didn't know him personally, but that's what they used to antagonize him just like non stop, just this kind of sought on, you know, who he was. And he just, you know, in response to that, set himself on fire. But the, the chaos in that environment wait at the men wage war against each other, storm feces and urine on each other. And you know, you may get two guys that's in sales next to each other and they get, they get into a beef, which is like ridiculous when you think like, how are y' all beefing with each other? But, you know, and one just takes a breath and knocks on the toilet for like hours, you know. And so it's just always this random noise and chaos and you know, it's 23 hour lockdown. So it's this for five days a week. I was locked down for 23 hours. You can go out to the outside cage and they're lily dog kennels. They're not like. Yeah, that's really what it is like a dog kennel. And so when they take you out, they attach you to handcuffs that's actually attached to a leash and they walk you out to the dog kennels, put you out there. And one of the. One of the hardest experiences I had is one morning, which I never. I rarely went out in the winter time. But growing up in Michigan, you know, you get used to the cold. So there's like a threshold of like, oh, if it's over 18 degrees, I can go out and handle that. And so we go out and one of the guys got into a beef with an officer. This is a verbal beef, that morning. And basically they just left us out longer than an hour. And we were out there just. I mean, like, I. I've never been this cold in my life. And it's the one time where I felt like it was. It was the closest I've ever come to, like, breaking. And it was just so cruel because, like, when you're in solitary, you don't have, like, layers like you have in general population. You have these very flimsy, thin shoes. And I mean, it was like a level of cruelty that was just unlike anything that I've witnessed. And so it happens, that environment. And then other two days you're locked down 24 hours. And I was, you know, I was. I was very. You know, again, my luck was that I was literate. And, you know, I was reading all of these philosophy books and, you know, I came across this passage from Socrates, said unexamined life isn't worth living. And that's when I started journaling and asking these, like, hard questions of like, how did my life end up here? You know, when you're. When you're at that moment of like, coming to just a hardcore truth of where you at. Because for years it's like, you know, my brain was like in this denial loop. Like, this is not going to be my life. This is going to. One day I'm going to wake up and this is all going to be over. This nightmare is going to come to an end. And then there's acceptance of, like, no, this is it. This is really where you're at. And they're telling you you're going to die in here. And, you know, you're looking around in this environment. It's a guy who's in solitary for 20 years and a neighbor who's in there for 10 years. Actually, one of the. One of the guys that I met who's my neighbor in there, he did 10 years, name is Peter. He now he's like doing some incredible legal work and, you know, in the University of Michigan. But I mean, that was the world of like, you're never Getting out of here. And they. They don't tell you when it. When it ends. So you don't know how long you're going to be or when it comes to an end. And it's that instability beneath your feet where you can't even just grasp 1, 2. Like, okay, if I'm working toward 90 days, I can put a plan together. Or if it's a year or two years. And so you're just in this, you know, limbo, you know, and that. That was. That the cruelty of that and what it does to you as a human being, the inability to communicate, you know, like, we would have to lay on the floor. And I would lay on the floor and talk beneath the floor to, like, my neighbor. And sometimes I would, like, pop the electrical socket. I could talk to the guy downstairs. And some guys would just take all the water out of their toilets. And then you can talk through the toilet to different cells. So that was like our communication system. And it was really one of the things that spoke to the desire as humans to actually connect. And so we would find ways. We would figure out, you know, how do we talk, how do we exchange letters. We would make fist lines to, like, send letters down the hall. And basically, you take all the string out of your underwear or your socks, and then you attach it to, like, a toothpaste tube that you squeeze all the toothpaste out and then you wet some toilet paper, put it inside there, smash it down, let it dry, and then you just slide it up under the door. And it's funny because, like, you really start to get good with, like, geometry because you gotta. You gotta learn how to angle a thing. And, you know, it's all these different ways, but that's how we communicated, you know, we figured out how to connect, you know, as humans. And I remember, so I had the last sale, and there was a guy next to me named Peto. And it was. It was like, he was very smart, he was very knowledgeable. Puerto Rican guy, knew a lot about, you know, his history. And so we would like, lily lay on the floor and. And, you know, I would talk to him about culture and hip hop and poetry. And he would try to teach me Spanish. And then I started to set my days up, where I would structure my days like I was at a university. And so I would just, like, study world history in the morning. I would study philosophy. Then I would, you know, and then I would write the rest of the evening all the way until, like, you know, late, late, late. And that's how I was able to navigate it. You know, it took time to get there. Having a structured day, figuring out like, okay, this is my exercise period, this is my study period, this is my writing period. And I know I would not have. I wouldn't have survived that without being literate. I'm, I'm. I'm 100% positive that I would have went crazy in there like anybody else. And there was one. One thing that even being literate, I don't think that's enough, is being aware. And there's a book called Cages of Steel that was written by these two professors. And I remember reading this book, and there's one section where the psychiatrist is explaining what locking someone in a cell does to them. And this is at the time I think they were designing the maximum security prison in, in Miriam. I think it's in Illinois. But he lays out this list of probably about 40 or 50 behaviors that happen the longer you keep somebody in prison. Hallucinations, the inability to just have a normal conversation because you're talking from behind a steel door. And it was just all these things that he laid out. And so when I would feel any of those things arising, I would just grab a book, and sometimes it was just whatever the nearest book was, and I would just turn it open and start reading. So sometimes it's fiction. I'm just going into these worlds. And other times it's like, you know, Nelson Mandela's, you know, or Maya Angelou or somebody who had been through hard things. And just a page, a paragraph, a sentence sometime was enough to just move my mind forward. And what I realized about that, it was like that process of being able to move your mind forward. It's the difference between committing suicide is, you know, when you have a suicidal ideation, it's almost like your brain can't move off that one part that's telling you that this is too hard to deal with. And so those books were able to jar me into a space of like, oh, I can get through hard things. And then I. I came up with this understanding that if I can get through the pain of the moment, I can come out on the other side of anything.
- [36:13]
Jonathan Cohen
Mayim Bialik's breakdown is supported by Open Door Media.
- [36:16]
Mayim Bialik
If you've ever found yourself feeling like you've got more questions than answers, then guess what, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bitton and Noam Weissman dig into the biggest questions about life through the Jew Cleanse. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, you'll learn something new. You'll probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Noam tackle the hard stuff. Anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the future of religion with guests like Brett Stevens, Michael Rapaport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this May, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they'll be celebrating the Jewish lives and institutions that shaped America. Thoughtful, joyful, and always honest. That's wondering Jews with Michal and Noam. A production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure you hit subscribe. REI has ultralight backpacking gear. So for you, Graham counters and ounce shavers, we made this ad ultralight with a base weight of just 13 seconds. The next 17 seconds pure trailer. Find more with less in store and@rei.com tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
- [37:50]
Shaka Senghor
And then it was like figuring out what are those tools to get me through the pain of the moment? And sometime it was reading, other times it was meditation, Sometimes it was mindfulness, and a lot of times it was writing.
- [38:00]
Mayim Bialik
Was God any part of your journey?
- [38:03]
Shaka Senghor
God was a part of my journey in terms of like, the place where I directed all of my anger toward, you know, I wrote in my journal some very, Some very deep thoughts about how I felt. This contradictory idea was that there was this all seeing power that would allow lives to be trapped into these environments. And I had already always had like this very conflicted relationship with the idea of God as good. And it stemmed from my childhood. Like, my mother would go to church on Sunday morning and then beat us on Sunday night. And so it was just like, okay, if this is like what God is like, I don't want any parts of that. But like many, you know, kids that grew up in black households, just grow up Baptist. And that's the thing. And then when I was reading Malcolm X's autobiography, that interested me in like studying Islam. And then when I really started reading, the thing about Malcolm that I think gets lost is that he was really an organic intellectual. He was super curious about how the world worked. And so that led me to reading everything I could. It's about theology in general So I would study, I mean, every spiritual book, which I think those books are like the most amazing. The stories are like unparalleled, the wisdom, but I've read them all. Dhammapada, the Klan, the Torah, you name it. I would read and study all these books and these lessons. And then I would write about how angry I was with the idea of like this God who just, you know, just allow all these horrible things to happen to this, to this kid. But where I, where I ended up landing was that, you know, I'm a. I'm a big nerd. Like, I'm a big nature nerd. I love nature. It's like one of my favorite things. And I always find myself in awe about the idea that the sky is infinite and that there's places in the ocean we have not yet ventured, and that there's even place on the earth that we inhabit that man has not even come in contact with. And I was like, between those three things are the greatest scripture ever. Because what it shows is that as wise as we think we are, as amazing as we think we are as humans, like we don't even know a tenth of what this world exists in just on this planet alone. Which to me speaks to like a higher. And whatever people choose to call it is what they call it. But for me, it's like those reminders of going into these spaces of curiosity with nature, to me is just the greatest testimony of a higher being.
- [40:57]
Mayim Bialik
In the book, you show us the letter that you wrote to the warden requesting to be placed back in the general population. It's very, very powerful. I want to, I want to go from there to what happened once you wrote that letter. And you can tell us about the letter and how did you get out?
- [41:19]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, so that's a great question. You know, it's really interesting how that letter came to be. So I had started reading like all these philosophical books. And one of my favorite books of all time is James Allen. As a man thinketh, basically what happened is I had this moment where I call it like my ride or die moment, where I started journaling. And I wanted to answer that essential question. How did I get here? And I went back and I started to write out all the harms that ever happened to my physical body. And it was mind blowing. Like the molestation, the attempted molestation, the physical violence, just all these things. And I started to reassign responsibility because I had internalized all these things. Something must be wrong with me for these things to happen. And that the power of Reassigning and then accepting the things that I was responsible for was just like, you know, one of the most enlightening things I'd ever done. And when I was reading James Allen as a man thinking it, talked about this idea that the thought seeds that we plant will assuredly blossom into whatever they. Whatever they are, right? And so when I started to track back my life, I'm like, oh, I began to believe all these negative thought seeds that have been planted. Your life can only end with you dead in jail before 21. And I'm like, okay, if this is. This law of attraction is true in a negative, how do I prove that it's true in a positive? You know, because I was still skeptical. I'm like, ah, this. This foo foo stuff doesn't work. And so the first thing was, okay, what do I want more than anything in the world right now? And at that time, I had written two and a half books because I fell into depression when I started the third one, because I realized this dream I had was born in a nightmare scenario. So now I realize I got this talent, I got this gift of storytelling, and now I'm in an environment where I can't do anything with it. So what I wanted more than anything was just to get to a typewriter. If I can get to a typewriter, I can see if I can make this dream come true. And that's when I was like, okay, universe, I want to test this idea of you can attract into your life what you believe. And so I wrote the Wharton, and I positioned it in a very philosophical argument. And the argument was, if you believe me to be a man of my word and a negative, which I told him when I came to prison, listen, I'm not following the rules. Clearly, you look at my record. I have been a man of my word. If you believe me to be a man of my word in a negative, all I'm asking you to believe me to be a man of my word and a positive. Because the only thing that matters here is the truth. And that was the first time the warden ever wrote me back. And I just asked him, I said, if you let me out of solitary, I'll focus on two things. One, I will type up the books that I've written, and I'll continue to write, and I'll mentor the young man and the older men in my environment and help them learn how to read. And he wrote me back, and he was like, despite my hesitation, your letter presents a very compelling argument. And I'm gonna advocate for you to get out. And so he started to advocate. But getting out of solitary confinement requires, like, multiple layers. So he had to send it to his higher ups. They denied it. The first time he came back, they accepted it. They sent it to their higher ups. They denied it. And so it wasn't until two and a half years later that I actually got out of solitary. But what that did, that response to that letter, it gave me just enough hope to keep going, and it gave me just enough of an idea that somebody is advocating for me. And eventually I'm going to get out of here. And so what do I need to do to prepare my mind for when I'm back out there so that I can honor my word? And so I just took the rest of the time, and I just kept studying. I kept writing in my journal. I couldn't quite get back into writing books because it was just, like, too much. The intense desire to have that. It was just so hard to not have certainty. But I just wrote, I journaled. I mentored the young man in the cell block. Whenever they had some young men around me that was trying to figure it out, how to read, I would work with them. And then I got released from solitary, and that's when it was like, all right, now it's, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? And how are you going to figure it out? And I got out. I took all those books that I handwritten. I typed them up. I finished the third one, and then I wrote a fourth one. I started writing essays, and I would just send out. I would, like, send my work out all over the place. I would, like, write random publishers. I would send them query letters. I was just like, go to the library. And I remember reading in the Writer's Digest, it was like, okay, you gotta write a query that I had never heard the word query. So I'm like, okay, what does that mean? And so I would just go and find. And most of the time, these books were, like, so outdated. It'd be like Writer's digest from, like, 1979. I'm like, all right, is these addresses even still real? And so I would just type these manuscripts up, and then I would take them to the guys in the cell block who, like, if they worked in the school. And I'd be like, yo, I got. I got five ramen noodles. Can you go and photocopy and smuggle this back over to me? And so they would, like, copy the books and smuggle them back over to me. And then I Would mail them out. I would, like, hustle up on stamps and take. Because I was, you know, still hustling. And I would, like, take all the stamps and put them. Like, this is so ridiculous. These envelopes would be like this thick with, like 80 stamps all over it. I'm like, this is getting mailed out. But I would send them out to all these. I mean, I sent letters to, like. I was sending letters to, like, rappers. Like, yo, you're talking about the stuff I'm writing about. You should publish my book. I actually still got a letter that I wrote to, like, Jay Z. I got one. I wrote to Vibe magazine. And then later on, I ended up meeting, like, one of my best friends. He used to be the editor in chief at Vibe. And he was at my house one day, and I was actually looking for something else, and I came across this piece and I was like, yo, I sent this to, like, you know, the magazine way while I was in prison. And I was just like, I was shooting in the dark. And nobody ever responded. Like, I never got. I mean, I'm sure there's probably, like an envelope somebody's, like, discarded somewhere. It'd be great, like, if somebody stumbled in, like an old storage room. Like, oh, what is this? I've seen this name before. But I was just taking my shot. And then I got. Sometime I did get here back, and, like, it would be rejection letters. Like, we're not publishing this type right now. And I had this moment where I was like, okay, maybe this doesn't work, you know, maybe it's, you know, nobody's gonna believe a guy in prison could write a book. And I ended up feeling sorry for myself for a short period of time. And I was like, no, get it together. Figure it out. And I was reading a magazine article about a self help publishing book, and I. I ordered that book. I got it. I read that thing from, like, Lily cover to cover, like, multiple times. And I taught myself how to publish a book from prison. And so I published my first book in 2008 from behind the Walls. And then I got sued by the prison for the cost of my incarceration. No, they sued me. They thought I had got a book deal, and they sued me for a million dollars. Yeah.
- [48:51]
Mayim Bialik
Then what happened?
- [48:53]
Shaka Senghor
So they didn't anticipate that I actually knew more about the law than they thought when they sued me. And so basically what I did is I backdated a contract saying that I would only accept 10% of the proceeds of the book once it recouped. Its production costs. And so basically what that did is it took them from being able to sue me for 90% of $15 to only being able to sue me for 90% of $1.50. And they could only get the money if we recouped the production costs while I was in prison. And so I just made sure we only sold enough books to like not meet that threshold. And then. Cause once I got out of prison, the lawsuit was gonna be non binding. And I remember being on the call, cause I did everything with the court was all on the phone and the, the, the, the attorney general, her, the prosecutor, whatever she was. I mean this lady was like so mean spirited of just like he shouldn't be able to publish books from prison and you know, he shouldn't be able to do a book deal. And I was like, you know, I was talking, I was like, well, freedom of speech is fundamental to our constitution and that doesn't stop in prison. Or at least it shouldn't. And so I put together this persuasive argument that I'm, I'm literally arguing with the, you know, with this woman in front of the, the, the judge. And the judge's name is Daphne Curtis Means. And this is the wildest thing. I literally just met this judge about actually last month in Detroit. I was going to speak at an event. The woman who was hosting it, she introduced the woman and she was like, this is, you know, my friend Daphne Means. She used to be a judge. And I was like, I was like, I think she oversaw my case. And she actually ended up overseeing two cases. And I told her and I was like, I was like, is it judge like Daphne Curtis Means? She was like, yeah. And I was like, you navigated this case when I was in prison. I never forgot what she said. And she was like, I have to rule in favor of the state on the principles and the merits of the, of the case. Because that's just what it is. If you're in prison and you make any money, they can take 90%. But I think that you should be able to do what you want to do creatively. And so we had this great profound conversation and yeah, they ended up not getting any money.
- [51:21]
Jonathan Cohen
So what a better way to spend your time? Like, right, like you're actually doing something. Building yourself.
- [51:27]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [51:27]
Jonathan Cohen
Rehabilitating yourself. And they're gonna chop that down and make it as hard for you as possible.
- [51:32]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. I mean when I went up for parole the first year, so at that point I had self published a novel. I had edited and contributed to publishing a children's book. I had been published in, like, all type of college magazines and local newspapers. And, you know, I was just writing essays and things of that nature. And when I went, they was just like, we don't think you're prepared for society. And I'm like, okay, I got it. You know, I wasn't a model prisoner the first, you know, the first part of my incarceration. So, you know, they're going to give me the punitive denial. Then I went back up a second time in 2009 and had a better experience, and they denied me again. I remember having this thought of, like, only thing I'm guaranteed is this 40 years. They don't have to give you a parole, you know, they don't. You don't. They don't have to give you a pro. You're guaranteed the 40. But you come up your minimum part of your senses when you come up for your hearing. I just remember, like, saying to myself at that point, I had 18 years in, and I was like, if I don't know how to do anything else, I know how to do time. And it was hard to watch my dad, like, get his hopes up to be dashed. And I'm like, I don't want to send him through that. You know, if I have to do my time, I just have to do it. And, you know, I remember that moment and kind of, you know, I definitely had a moment of feeling sorry for myself because I was so excited to, like, get out and, you know, pursue this dream that was, like, burning inside me. And even during that time, I remember getting, like, the first copy of, like, my book. It was like, the galley and getting it inside the prison and just like, walking through those prison corridors. And just like, the guys were so proud of me because I was, you know, guys in prison always talking about what they're going to do. I'm gonna get out, I'm do this and become a real estate investor and this, that and other. It's very, very audacious and ambitious dreams. And. And as mine was, it was just like. It was like, ridiculous. Like, I. I was like. I wrote down everything I wanted to happen in my career as a writer. And even when I first wrote. I want to take you back a little bit. So I wrote the first book in solitary, and I got on the floor and I'm like, yo, anybody want to read this book? I just remember this guy was like, don't nobody want to read that shit. Saint Oprah. And I was like, damn, that Was crazy because I'm like, at this time, I'm a big, I'm a shot caller on the yard. Like, I'm, you know, I can have some things taken care of, you know, and I'm like, you know, you can't disrespect me. Like, you know, I'm, I'm, I am who I am. And, and it was like one of those moments, I'm in solitary and I was like, oh, this is, this is like one of those tests. It's the universe saying, who, who are you? Are you the person you say you're becoming or are you this old person? And so I had to sit with that, that you're not going to like, you don't just transform without the challenges, without the adversity, without the mirror. You know, this mirror came back and I'm like. And my ego was bruised, like, yo, you can't talk to me and blah, blah. And I remember just sitting back with that for, you know, just literally sitting on my bunk thinking about that. Like, why would he say that? You know? And then I, it was literally just like, let me interrogate myself the way that Socrates would. It's the unexamined life, right? It's like, now let me examine this. What is it? What's. What is that bringing up for me? And what it brought up for me was this thing that I battled, like a lot of people that I've learned. It's one of the reasons that I wrote this book is self doubt and negative self talk. So it triggered that thing, you know, how dare you? Who do you think you are to write a book and think that somebody's gonna read your book? You know? And it was like, okay, well what do I want to happen with my work? And I started writing down all these ridiculous goals. I want to be a best selling author. I want kids who come from where I come from to read my work. I want Oprah to read one of my books. I want to write across a variety of mediums. I want to write for newspapers and magazines and I want to review hip hop and I want to just write and write and write because I was just reading. And so when I got that denial, that's the volume of the dream that was there was like, man, it's crushing me, you know, it's cr. Like I can't get out and do the things that I want to do. But I decided to go back up the third time. And the first time there was my interview was with an older white woman. She was just that interview probably lasted like 60 seconds. My dad drove 12 hours to come up in that hearing. The second time, it was a younger white woman and she was super cool. She was like. I later learned that she was like a professor at a community college. I'm like, it makes sense, right? But she was cool. We was flirting. It was like we had a whole situation going on and she voted for me, but the second guy that she had to take it back to went against me. And so it went to a third guy, and this guy sided with the guy who didn't see me, and so they denied. And then the third time, it was this older black man, and he was a preacher, I think a preacher, Pastor Bishop, one of those in a city outside of Detroit. And he talked to me for probably 30 seconds. And the rest of the time he directed this conversation at my dad. And he just asked my dad, who have you watched your son become in his last 18 plus years? And my dad really walked him through who he had witnessed me becoming. Letters. Me and my dad would write these letters a lot. We would write. We would write a lot. Actually just wrote him a letter recently, just as a. A throwback moment to like, I got this super cool stationary that reminded me of a letter he wrote me when he was in Japan. And so I wrote him a letter on the stationary and sent it to him. And that third time was the term. And, you know, I'll never forget the day that I learned I was getting out. I was coming back into the unit from walking the yard and working out, and, you know, I got, you know, did my little phone call like I normally do, and this officer, this woman, she was like, she was like, yo, get off the phone. Go down to the cell block. And I'm like, like, what's happening? I got. Got time. What are you talking about? She like, no, she's like, it's important. And so I go down there and I'm just like. I'm like, what's. What is happening? I'm thinking I'm about to pack up and transfer again. I've been. When you get toward the end of your sense, they're always moving you around. She was like, guess what? And I was like, what? And she was like, like, you're getting out? And I was like, man, get out of here. She was like, no. She's like, seriously? She's like, I just went to talk to the counselor because they were trying to find somebody with a. Trying to find a bottom bunk. And because I had a knee injury, I had. What's Called a bottom bunk detail. And the counselor was like, oh, yeah, don't worry, White. My legal name is White. He'll be leaving in a couple of days. And she told me that. And I was like, I just remember just sitting there on the bunk, like, man, I need, like, concrete evidence. I need, like, some tangible. So I go around to the counselor office. I'm like, I'm just about to make up some reason to go in and talk to this counselor, you know, And I go and talk to her, and I was like, hey, can you check my account? Blah, blah. And she was like, oh. She was like, I'm so happy you actually popped in today. She was like, you've been transferred to reentry program, like, in a couple of days. You've been granite parole. And I just. Man, I went back and I just sat on my bunk, and I was like, when they passed out mail, they gave me the paper. I still actually had a paper at my house now. And I just, like, kept, like. I was just, like, kept doing this to it. Like, this is, like, really real. It's like 19 years, and, like, now I'm going back to society. And I was so fired up to get out. I knew what I was coming to do, and, like, I was just so excited to. To get started with it.
- [59:32]
Mayim Bialik
You were in prison for as long as you had been alive before you went to prison?
- [59:36]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, half and half. Yeah. I got. I actually got out of prison one day after my 38th birthday.
- [59:43]
Mayim Bialik
And you had a boy.
- [59:45]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [59:46]
Mayim Bialik
Did you have any relationship with him in those years? I mean, you were essentially away for his formative years, right?
- [59:53]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. So my dad. My dad would bring my son to see me. We wrote a lot of letters early on, and then when he got to be a teenager. And I don't. I don't know this to be factually true, because we can't, you know, this the way that our medical senses system and our mental health system is set up. Like, you can't force a kid to get a diagnosis. But, you know, I came home, he had some very apparent, like, mental health challenges. And, you know, in the inner city, a lot of times, mental health is just, like, diagnosed without a real diagnosis. So it's like, is it schizophrenia? Did he smoke some weed that was laced with something? So that was the story that I kind of got, was that, you know, at some point he had smoked some weed, and he just was never the same after that. And so it made. It made our relationship very complex coming home. And, you know, we did. Did A little dance early on with, like, okay. And I. And, you know, part of the thing that I learned through the process was that I came home more as a mentor than a dad, you know, because I was just like, don't ruin your life the way that I ruined my life. You know, he actually got locked up with something he didn't do, which was a whole nother challenge. You know, I was lucky that I actually did have a knowledge base that I had, because it helped him end up not serving a prison sentence. But it was tough. You know, it's one of the things I talk a lot about in my work, is that prison is not a singular experience. When a person is incarcerated, your whole family goes with you. Anybody who loves you, cares about you, thinks about you. They're a part of that experience. And, you know, the consequence and the cost of it is just unbelievably harsh on families, you know, both financially, but really, like, mentally and emotionally. It just takes a toll on families and. And you lose. You probably. You pretty much lose everybody in your life, you know, and, like, that's tough.
- [62:13]
Mayim Bialik
We're going to hit pause here on our conversation with Shaka Senghor. There is so much more in part two, which we cannot wait for you to hear about, including how he finally met Oprah Winfrey and how his book got into her hands. He's also going to talk about the universality of his experience, how even though you may not be in a physical prison or even understand what that's like, how this book and the lessons that he teaches can inspire all of us to break out of the prisons that we are in.
- [62:46]
Jonathan Cohen
Often those prisons are hidden, but he walks us through how to identify them and the steps to break out of them and to transform our lives. He also talks about receiving a letter from the family of the man whose life he took, as well as, what does it mean to forgive, how does he forgive himself, and how does he forgive others?
- [63:09]
Mayim Bialik
And in a very surprising turn of events, he also describes what it was like to learn about the man who shot him when he was 17.
- [63:19]
Jonathan Cohen
The second part of the episode also touches on what it was like coming out of prison. The changes in society and technology that he had to interface with, how he re acclimated to coming back into society, the things that he loves the most now that bring his life joy, and the importance of prison reform itself.
- [63:37]
Mayim Bialik
Shaka's also going to explain how seeing the light at the end of the tunnel is something we can all hope for. But not all tunnels are created equal. We can't wait for you to hear part two of our conversation with Shaka. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.
- [63:53]
Shaka Senghor
It's Maya Bialik's breakdown.
- [63:55]
Mayim Bialik
She's going to break it down for you.
- [63:57]
Shaka Senghor
She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. And now she's gonna break down to break down. She's gonna break it down
- [64:08]
Mayim Bialik
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