← Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Part Two: The Holistic Psychologist: Why Childhood Wounds Block Intuition, How Trauma Pulls You Into The Past & The Science of Reparenting Your Nervous System | Dr. Nicole LePera
00:47:08
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- [00:00]
Jonathan Cohen
Mind Breakdown is supported by Helix Sleep.
- [00:04]
Mayim Bialik
Spring is in the air and so are all of the allergens that come with it. Spring allergens means you need more sleep, but there are a ton of factors that can prevent us from getting a good night's rest. Night sweats, back pain, feeling the person next to you when they roll over a million times. We were so excited to hear that Helix wanted to partner with us. I've had my Helix mattress for about five years now and I have been sleeping so much better. Jonathan and also our kids love their Helix mattresses and all of those issues. Night sweats, back pain, motion transfer. Those things are significantly better with a Helix mattress. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door, which is so much fun. With free shipping in the US they have a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Plus they're happy with Helix Guarantee Rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix Guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure that you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. Go to helixsleep do for 27% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com breakdown for 27% off site wide. Helixsleep.com breakdown.
- [01:10]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
You know what they say. Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home.
- [01:15]
Mayim Bialik
Book early and save over $120 with Robo because early gets you closer to the action, whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks. Well, whatever you want it to so you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with Vrbo's early booking deals. Rise and shine average savings $141 select homes only. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.
- [01:45]
Jonathan Cohen
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
- [01:46]
Mayim Bialik
And welcome to part two of our conversation with the holistic psychologist Dr. Nicole Lapera. We're talking about her new book, Reparenting the Inner Child, the New Science of Our Oldest Wounds and How to Heal Them. But what we actually talked about in part one of our conversation with Dr. Lapera is how the different wounds we receive in childhood manifest in adulthood, in our relationships, in our work, in our lives. If we're not in touch with our intuition, it's likely because these wounds are acting very, very strongly in our adult life. We also talk about what it's like to be the child of emotionally immature parents, why it's hard to do work on the inner child, and what survival mode looks like. We hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with Dr. Nicole Lupera. Break it down you devote, you know, a healthy and deserving part of the book to shame. I would love to talk about shame. The acronym I've heard is should have already mastered everything, which is what I think of when I think of shame. And that's usually what it feels like. I wonder if you can talk a little bit. I mean there's many kinds of responses we have to feeling shame. And I hadn't thought of people pleasing, avoidance, isolation, projection, body consciousness, overcompensation, being controlling, having secrets, being defensive, self harm. I hadn't thought of those as what if we view these as responses to shame? Can you talk a little bit about what shame is? How we feel shame, how we distinguish that from guilt and what it looks like when a child experiences shame.
- [03:35]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
So in contrast to guilt, which is a feeling that we have about a behavior, right, we feel badly about something that we've done. Shame is a more pervasive identity based feeling where we feel badly about who I am and shame. Right. Again, back to this idea that I was referencing earlier about we learn who we are and what we're worthy of in childhood. For more often than not, shame originates in childhood where we weren't seen as enough just for being who we are, right? And I think so many people fall into that category, right? Where we were only seen to be enough conditionally when we were preferred forming in some way or when we were easy and quiet and not rocking the boat or when we were over performing or caretaking like we talked about in terms of reparenting. So we and our inherent worth, right, Gets defined then more by action and shame. We can, in my opinion at least we can even map it on to a nervous system state of disconnection, of a shutting down down, right? Of where we're actually kind of disembodying ourselves, where we're disconnecting from our inherent worthiness, right? Only living the certain parts that or showing the world, right? Hiding the things that we think would cause us to be rejected or abandoned again, just like in childhood. So for so many of us, right, the actions or inactions of our earliest caregivers, again because of the way our brain developmentally couldn't zoom out and defer responsibility because none of it ever was ours, right? We assign that meaning you didn't show up for me or you abused me, parent, whatever it is that you've done because of something unworthy about me in childhood, this is the most ultimate form of control. Why I can't pack my bags and leave. But what I can do is notice those Cues. And children are very observant. They will notice what pulls a parent closer and maintains connection or what pushes the parent away. And then we become. Right. Shameful. If we don't have a parent that says, you know what, maybe I don't like what you've done. So to be clear, we have to, of course, you know, teach children boundaries. And they have consequences if they do things. Shame is very healthy because it preserves bonds. Right. We can't get rid of shame, but
- [05:43]
Mayim Bialik
we can identity, like, healthier. Right. We identify. And I'm trying to think. You know, I once peaked on a spelling test. We used to have those desks where there was like a little shelf. There was like a little shelf underneath. And I was pretty sure I knew how to spell. I believe the word was disappointment, which is ironic. The irony is not lost on me. And I just peaked and confirmed it. Right. And I ended up confessing because I. I felt guilt. Right? I felt guilt. But when I think about what is shame, you know, and she. And Mrs. Cass was a. She was a wonderful, wonderful teacher. And, you know, there was nothing negative that came of that. But what I can imagine would lead to shame is what's the matter with you? And if anyone has ever had that screamed in their face by an adult, what's the matter with you? Right. And that's shame. Right. I'm bad. I'm the mistake. Right. It feels like a personal flaw. I'm reading the chart. You know, leads to hiding, self criticism or withdrawal.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
Oh, let's also factor in the school system, too, right? This is even beyond parenting in our homes. I mean, I'm just thinking even back to. Thankfully, the school systems are somewhat changing and there's alternate schools you can go into to perhaps more individualize a child's needs. But when we grow up, still mostly
- [06:57]
Mayim Bialik
for elite people, wasn't the case.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
Right. You know, and so children, I can't tell you my partner being one of them. Lolly sent shares horrifying stories of. She was told very young that she did some aptitude test. And when she was very young, she was told that she was going to be a tugboat captain. I mean, she. This lives in her mind until today. And she is the most brilliant. I mean, stands right next to me, builds this business. I mean, I look up to her in so many ways. And so these things are so hard to do.
- [07:21]
Mayim Bialik
Not that there's anything wrong with being.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
No, tugboat captains are great, you know, to all the tugboat captains out there, but I know it's not her Body type just wouldn't be a tugboat captain. She's just not built for it. The life on the sea is not her. But that aside, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's sad the messages that were given. You know, sometimes I have a memory too of I. My mom demanded straight A's. My family did. And that's because again, they thought that, you know, success and achievement were the way to me to be financially secure in adulthood. Which they were somewhat wrong, but not in all ways. So anyway, it turns out that psychologists don't make all that much money, nor
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Mayim Bialik
do they need to get all A's, nor do they.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
But I have this memory again in a childhood I cannot recall yet I can recall the day that I did not get an A. I may have gotten like God, 78, say, for instance. And we had to have our test signed. And I was now met with the most ultimate dilemma. Do I tell my mom right? And show my mom my 78, which isn't even like that bad of a grade, you know, I had, you know, it happens, it happens, you know, and I didn't instead. And my mom had the most hard signature to plagiarize.
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Mayim Bialik
Forged her signature.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
And I did it so badly that I like wore the paper like it was so silly looking that I'm sure my teacher. I did not confess. I was very good at hiding secrets. There's still time. My mom, I did surprise there in the next room and yeah, but I did. I. My teacher probably knew and felt bad for me because I always got straight 80s and nothing was ever said. But I remember the amount of stress and turmoil because I felt so shameful that this 78 right. Was going to reflect so poorly on who I was and my mom wasn't going to love me anymore that I tortured myself to the extent that it's one of the few memories I have is like sitting there laboring over with white out, trying to sign my mom's name.
- [09:01]
Jonathan Cohen
When we're talking about shame and when you were talking about oh, it would have prevented you from pursuing the life that you ultimately have. Can you talk about how these unprocessed emotions, especially shame, can prevent us from following our instincts, following the life path. I believe that each one of us has a unique life path that we're here to experience. And it's by being able to follow the signposts, the moments of intuition that we get there. Can you talk about what it's like to have access to intuition and then what blocks that?
- [09:34]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Yeah. So Just to kind of continue the conversation with shame. Shame is a shutdown, right? We're actually disconnecting from our intuition. So, right, we begin to live in our mind separate from our body, outsourcing, asking other people what they think because they're more worthy. And so we're not even tuning in to where intuition, right, lives inside of us. Some of us kind of take what I would call loosely, the opposite, right? Where we are so tuned into someone else, right? We're hyper vigilant, we're always scanning, always bracing, always looking for every shift in mood. Again, because at one time that unpredictability in our early environment, we need it to be attuned in that way, right? So now again, we're not only we're not this, we're disconnected to some extent, but we're overly kind of like activated, we're misperceiving. I mean, there's really powerful studies where the more trauma, especially when it's relationally based, the more likely we are to misinterpret neutral stimuli as threatening, as aggressive, right? So now when we talk about instincts,
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Mayim Bialik
that's having your guard up. Having your guard up, right?
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
Thinking like you read earlier, that everyone's unsafe, that the world is unsafe, that no one is trustworthy, even in a moment where there is safety that is present. So all of the adaptive ways that our nervous system learn to survive in unpredictability and unmet need, right? Follow us and then become what feels instinctual, right? Where we're just sure that we can't trust this person. We don't know why, right? Because they've not given us any logical reason not to trust them. It's just that feeling. So it's confusing, right? Because we're like, oh, feelings are internal. It's my compass. And we have fused survival states for so long, like we're talking about earlier with the jaw, right? Always being on guard has felt so normal that we do think it's our intuition talking that's telling us that no one is safe. But again, it is really an intuition that has been colored and is really a survival mode that is functioning.
- [11:32]
Mayim Bialik
And also, and I think this speaks to kind of, you know, the whole concept of this book. And I want to get into reparenting next, but the notion that you think you're walking around with an inner child is incorrect. Your inner child is on the outside. It's interacting with every single person. It's getting offended, it's getting hurt, it's crying, it's not being able to regulate emotions. It's filling the God shaped hole. Your inner child's on the outside of you. So all of these wounds, right, that we think are inside and nobody needs to know and you don't need to know what my mom was like and like, I'm fine, right? You're, you're just pissing them out all over the street.
- [12:05]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
They're visible.
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Mayim Bialik
You're not pulling anyone.
- [12:08]
Jonathan Cohen
Can you take us a little bit further, one step further on this notion of intuition? What is it like to have access to that inner compass?
- [12:16]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Having access to an inner compass is having moments of calm, grounded presence. It's the ability to be flexible, right? We lose flexibility where we become certain things are all or nothing. We're just so sure that we know your motives, we lose kind of nuance. So we gain that we see possibility and alternate solutions too, right?
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Mayim Bialik
We can become so locked and loaded creativity, right?
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Jonathan Cohen
Can we expand on that part? Because I think that may be the biggest piece that people don't understand. We see our lives as they are, not what they might be able to be. And how does doing this work and reconnecting with that inner compass show us a much wider range of possibility.
- [13:03]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
So first just kind of focusing on why we can't see or we limit sight. Again, a very practical, you know, kind of function of our nervous system is to do just that, shrink awareness so that all we're focusing on is what we need to focus on, which in a moment of stress is the threaded hands. Which is why we become hyper fixated on what's bothering us, what's upsetting us. We ruminate on it in our head and we only then again can see very limited solutions, right? Usually what has once worked in the past again worked being used loosely, meaning the quickest way kept you alive, kept us alive. And the quickest way to ease the discomfort in that moment. But literally our nervous system, our eyes even turn inward. We become hyper focused on what we need to focus on, which is the thing that's stressing us out. So then we limit, right, any other possibility, solution factor that might be contributing to someone's behavior. And so until we again, through not just insight, begin to practice regulating a nervous system by first noticing when we're stressed, right? Taking moments to rebuild a connection with our body so that we can determine how much stress we're under, right? If we are kind of in a moment of activation, I mean, I know more often than not in a moment of upset, I am certain that how I'm feeling is correct. I will always feel this Way. The only solution usually is for you to do something different or say you're
- [14:24]
Mayim Bialik
sorry or for us to break up or.
- [14:26]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Oh, love that I even sometimes I'm so sor. Lolly. I will say this on air. I sometimes still throw that out right. In a moment of upset. Why? Because that's what I learned in childhood, right? Oh, if this isn't working, any sign of tension or conflict, any sign of disagreement or definitely disappointment, I'm out. Right? And so my protection is to remove myself emotionally or sometimes say something really hurtful like maybe this isn't going to work. You know, and that's not what I mean. Time goes by, I take a walk, I actually allow my body to calm down, and then I'm feeling a little bit sheepish, shameful, right? Because I see another solution. I see a couple that very much loves each other, is safe and secure, but had a hard moment. How many times, right, in time does our perspective naturally shift?
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Mayim Bialik
That's something that so many of us never had modeled. And I guess it depends what generation you're growing up in. But most of us never had healthy emotional regulation modeled.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
And definitely not repair.
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Mayim Bialik
Right.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
What to do after.
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Mayim Bialik
Right. Like anger. Like, I don't know what anger supposed to look like.
- [15:24]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
No. My mom would give me the silent treatment and then sometimes days, weeks, even months if it was a really bad thing, like when I came out, which was not to be, you know, not the desired outcome. And then it was as if just one day, just out of nowhere, we're just talking again, right? So no resolution.
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Mayim Bialik
That's crazy making. I mean, that's reality bending, right?
- [15:42]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
That's reality bending, right. You're left to wonder. I mean, obviously you get the sense that you cause that in, you know, you caught. So what happens now? Any movement of distance, right? I. Or tension, or you're not responding to me in the way or as quickly as I want. Right. The inner child is there and it's like, oh, I know what this means. This means you did wrong, Nicole. This means you did bad. And sometimes, right. The best solution is to push you away before I'm hurt even more.
- [16:05]
Jonathan Cohen
And it will happen in friendships. It will happen in work dynamics. It will happen with other family members that are not your children, your cousins. Like, it happens everywhere.
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Mayim Bialik
Well, because you're the common denominator and
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
how often at work, right. Feedback comes and you're convinced you're losing your job. You get an email about a standard meeting tomorrow and you're spiraling, right?
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Mayim Bialik
Or you want to quit, or you're gonna leave, right?
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
Screw you. I'll leave you first before you fire me. When in reality, like, there's a part of your mind maybe that knows you're doing well at work, you just got a great evaluation. But in that moment, right, the inner child is online and is convinced that someone's mad at you, that you're not, you know, appropriate at this job anymore.
- [16:42]
Jonathan Cohen
And if you're trying to do your own thing, if you're an entrepreneur, you're like, well, how do I see a solution to problem? Life is really just a series of problems that we have to navigate and a series of disconnections. And if we don't know how to navigate those disconnections, then we don't have options in front of us. This episode is sponsored by Wondering Jews, an open door media brand.
- [17:03]
Mayim Bialik
If you've ever found yourself feeling like you have more questions than answers, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bittone and Noam Weissman, dig into the biggest questions about life through a Jewish lens. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, learn something new, and probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Noam tackle the tough topics like anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the future of religion with guests like Bret Stephens, Michael Rapoport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this past month, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they've been celebrating some of the Jewish lives and institutions that have shaped American life, from food to music and comedy. Thoughtful, joyful and always honest.
- [17:48]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
That's one.
- [17:48]
Mayim Bialik
Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam, a production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure to hit subscribe. Check out Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam podcast and subscribe at Unpacked Bio NMX
- [18:05]
Jonathan Cohen
Mayim Bialix Breakdown is supported by Bioptimizers.
- [18:08]
Mayim Bialik
You know, I struggled to get good quality sleep and I just assumed it was stress. But as I learned during perimenopause and menopause, your hormones shift in a way that affects your magnesium levels. And low magnesium. It makes everything harder. Not just sleep. Focus, mood, your tolerance for stress. That's why I have added magnesium Breakthrough Bye bye optimizers to my nightly routine. It's a blend of seven different forms of magnesium designed to support relaxation and overall sleep quality. Try it. See if you wake up More rested and refreshed, you've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Bio Optimizers offers a 365 day no questions asked money back guarantee. Magnesium breakthrough is a huge breakthrough to improve hormonal balance, to help with focus, decrease brain fog, improve sleep hygiene. Overall, Bioptimizers makes it very easy. Jonathan, what do they get when they go to bioptimizers.com breaker and use the code breaker?
- [19:00]
Jonathan Cohen
You get 50% off your entire order and a free bottle of Mass Zymes
- [19:05]
Mayim Bialik
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- [19:11]
Jonathan Cohen
That's a $20 product, free on top of your discount already.
- [19:16]
Mayim Bialik
This is a limited time offer and while supplies last, you can't get it on Amazon, you can't get it in stores. This offer exists in one place. Our link, our code. That's it. So maybe you were already thinking about it. This is the sign. Go to buyoptimizers.com breaker. Use the code breaker. Grab it before it's gone. Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again. You talk about the different kind of spheres, right? The spheres that we operate in that we kind of as primates need to operate in. And the section of the book that is dedicated to reparenting methodically and really beautifully goes through each of these spheres, right? So if this is a desire that was quashed, here are the exercises, the thoughts, the, the actions you can take to repair that. And you go through each of the spheres. So we're not going to be able to get into all of them. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit for people who again, might kind of like me, roll their eyes at this notion of like reparenting. That sounds so soft, right? It sounds like I don't have access to that. You talk about reparenting as rewiring and I feel like that's a really great place for you to help us understand why this isn't some like floofy, get in touch with your inner child and kumbaya. This is like your brain is operating a certain way. And if you are having any dissatisfaction within yourself, in your relationships, at your work, with friendships, if something's not right, if people are accusing you of being sensitive or reactive or aggressive, or you feel like your pickers off with who you're dating, right? It's likely because there's something going on that is wired into your system. How does reparenting change that wiring? Yeah.
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Dr. Nicole Lapera
So Those dysfunctional habits, right, usually come online in moments where there's a similarity to those earliest experience, whether the similarity is the first sphere that I talk about. The foundation of any change is creating safety and security in our body, reconnecting with it first, right? Noticing when our body is feeling unsafe, noticing when our muscles are clenching, our heart is racing, our breath is quickening, or we're holding our breath and slowing down our movement, slowing down our breathing, right? Releasing that tension not just one time, but consistently over time, right? Where we're sending signals. So this is right for all the people who are like, I know I'm safe, but I can't rest, I can't relax, I can't sleep at night, right? I know my partner is coming home to me, yet I have all of these racing thoughts of how unsafe I am. So by noticing, of course, all change begins with awareness first, then choosing small shifts that we can make to create safety. Because with reparenting really is. It's a journey where we're kind of accompanying ourself on development and becoming the safe, nurturing, compassionate, supportive, not only in thought, but in action, caregiver. And that thought piece is important because once we have an understanding of, right? These were habits that were formed in an environment where safety was scarce or unpredictable or security or I could not just show up or I didn't feel worthy being who I am, right? So for a lot of us, that part of us gives us compassion for these parts because I think we're all agreeing they're not going away. We keep ourselves, though disconnected from our fullness when we're shaming those parts, when we're not understanding that some. For some of us, our inner critic is that the intention of it is protection, right? We learned in childhood that being a little too dramatic caused mom to scream or yell or for me to stop talking to me. So I learned to be a little less dramatic. Now I have that voice that's reminding me of what's going to happen when I'm too dramatic, right? That is protection. So everything that we're struggling with, if we can just soften to the reality that A, it's there, B, it's there for a reason, right? It formed at a time where that's the only option we had. That was what we needed to do to create safety. And then C, expand our awareness to the possibility that we can begin to show up in a new way. Because that's what reparenting and healing really is. It's learning how to experience the current moment in A new way with a new choice.
- [23:19]
Jonathan Cohen
And I think it's important to emphasize that you don't need to heal all of your trauma before you notice any difference. Right. It's like when we say you need to calm down, you need to relax. We're not saying that you have to be in a relaxed state all the
- [23:32]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
time, and nor can you. So another disclaimer here is, there is no, I have not found. If any listeners have, please, the holistic psychologist dot com. Um, please find me. There is no kind of, I'm done, I'm healed, I'm Kumbaya Zen all the time. The human experience is colored with difficulty, with emotion, with struggles, with disconnection, with disagreement. Right? So the goal is to just equip ourselves, to show up with intention and alignment, right? Where I can choose how I want to move forward. And the reality of it is, is change does come in gradually. It doesn't happen in one lightning strike of a dramatic, insightful moment where now the wand has been waved and I just totally feel differently. And more often than not, we don't feel differently for some time. Right. We have to show up. And this is what I think prevents a lot of us from starting, myself included. I want to wait until I feel like starting or to I feel inspired, until I maybe feel comfortable speaking publicly to bring my story back. Right.
- [24:31]
Mayim Bialik
I.
- [24:31]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
If I would have been waiting for that, I would still be waiting. Right. I had to show up uncomfortably at first. Right. Talk myself off of every ledge of how terrible I am and what people are going to think, sometimes even get verified about how terrible I am and what people think. Right. And I had to keep doing it anyway. Right now my speech, my experience and my feeling has begun to shift. But again, if we go in with the expectation to wait till we feel differently, that it's not going to take committed action, we're going to continue to be frustrated or maybe blame the world around us.
- [25:00]
Mayim Bialik
Like, guess what? This is life. Right? Meaning, like, there's not. I mean, obviously there's a beginning and we're kind of always in the middle, but we never know when the end is. Right? So the work that we're doing, like, that's the work of your life. So every relationship that you're in, that's an opportunity to practice. And for those of us who, you know, think of a higher power or of God, like God or the universe, if you don't like God, the universe will keep giving you an opportunity. Sure. Well, to repair.
- [25:28]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Right.
- [25:28]
Mayim Bialik
It will keep saying, how about now? How about now, like we're trying to give you the lesson, correct? This is the story of the flood, right? And the fireman knocks on the door and the guy's like, God's going to save me. And then like a boat comes along and he's like, God's going to save me. Helicopter. He's like, God's going to save me. And he gets to heaven and God says, I sent you a fireman, I sent you a boat and I sent you a helicopter. Like what? You know, reach your hand out, right? So this is kind of that work. It will follow you. It's, you know, emotions are like peeing, right? They, they, you can try and hold them in, but they're going to come out.
- [26:01]
Jonathan Cohen
I'll share a personal experience of something that I think I experienced very early in my life that repeated and repeated and repeated. And it's going to tie back to this idea of, of sibling abuse, which I think a lot of people haven't even considered that someone very close to them could be causing a huge emotional conflict. I had a very intense relationship with my older brother. I loved him unconditionally, like he was the greatest thing in the world. And also he was much bigger than me. And I almost as a way to interact with him. When he was ignoring me, I would taunt him like crazy and then he would attack me and then I'd be really upset. And we had this back and forth dynamic. And especially as we got older, like he would hurt me. The rage I felt towards him was like no rage I could possibly ever experience because I loved him so much that when he got to that place where I was so physically hurt, I was like, I would just be like I was out of my mind angry. That rage followed me into another relationship years and years later. And that person angered me like no one else. And most people who know me, they're like, I've never seen you mad. I've never seen you.
- [27:21]
Mayim Bialik
I've seen you mad.
- [27:23]
Jonathan Cohen
It takes a lot. It takes a lot. When that anger would come out, it was like a mystery. It's like, where did that come from? Why would something so innocuous seem to anger me so much? So the first moment and you never
- [27:37]
Mayim Bialik
connected it to this?
- [27:38]
Jonathan Cohen
Never connected it. And I thought it was the person's problem who I was dealing with, like, why are they acting like this? This is so unreasonable. And like in the worst of it, when I was really in conflict, I was. Very rarely would I externalize anger. It would just be stuff I would feel inside I threw my phone across a room. It hit a brick wall. The phone cracked. And I'm like, this is maybe a sign that things need to shift.
- [28:07]
Mayim Bialik
I've broken many phones. He's an amateur.
- [28:11]
Jonathan Cohen
The beginning of the shift was to identify and say, okay, externalizing that rage is a red circle behavior. I don't want to get there. So I have to identify. Oh, wait a second. I am now experiencing something that is likely not attributed to that person. There is something happening going on here.
- [28:32]
Mayim Bialik
It's hysterical, it's historical, and I have to pull back.
- [28:35]
Jonathan Cohen
Doesn't mean the anger goes away. Doesn't mean that. But I put some parameters on myself, like a child who is going to tantrum. You're allowed to be upset. You're not allowed to break the house. And starting to work with that part to say, okay, I acknowledge it, I see it. And so when you're talking about first identifying it as we have to be aware of it, well, how do we start to then contain ourselves and provide that container?
- [28:58]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
I mean, anger is an incredibly important motivating emotion. It signals when our boundaries are being crossed and when our needs have gone unmet for too long. It is kind of the final stop. And I, like you, have. Have had a habit of. And this kind of, like, collude it with my, you know, desire to overanalyze.
- [29:15]
Mayim Bialik
I.
- [29:16]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
My habit is to zoom out when any. Anytime someone did anything that possibly could have been upsetting to me, whatever the upset might have been in the moment, and explain away my upset to the extent of, like, over understanding. Oh, well, right. This is. And this has followed me up until even, like, you're saying things don't go away. They just. The universe says here again, here again, here again. Right. So a more recent relationship. Right. Explained away because I had understanding of this person's past and what caused them to have these explosive moments. And so I know they didn't mean it and it wasn't about me. And so I made it. I removed me from the equation and I overstepped in my own boundary. So to be clear, some of us think a boundary is about putting an ultimatum or an expectation on someone else. No, it's me saying, oh, I'm not going to, you know, be involved or communication with you when you're at this state of elevation. I'm going to remove myself. But I didn't do that because I held space, and I held space, and I held understanding, and I held understanding. And then what I got done with it, and then I became.
- [30:11]
Mayim Bialik
And you're holding it all angry person
- [30:13]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
who's screaming and yelling and maybe throwing a thing or two myself, you know, in a understandable moment of pent up anger that came from so many moments where I removed myself, my needs, my perspective from even the conversation and you
- [30:26]
Jonathan Cohen
become unreasonable and then tried to help with you.
- [30:30]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
You know, why are you, you acting like this now? You're the problem. And in reality, yes, I was acting in a problematic way. 100 but my problem started in childhood where I couldn't say, hey, I understand that you're not equipped, you know, mom or dad to show up in the way that I want it. But you know, like I still need it these things and my needs are now unmet and I need to find a way and take responsibility. Right. To find safety in myself and other relationships with people who aren't either explosive outward or disconnecting so that I have to manage you.
- [31:02]
Mayim Bialik
Jonathan, thank you for sharing also so honestly about this kind of sibling dynamic. This is not something that people like to talk about and we're glad that you do talk about it. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between normal sibling tension, roughhousing, fighting, what constitutes sibling abuse and what additionally does that do to one's inner child? I guess both inner children. Right?
- [31:28]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Thank you Jonathan for sharing that. Because I think it is something that isn't talked about because it's shameful. Because it again, I think people assume then if one is to acknowledge that they were abused at the end of their siblings, that somehow the parents are at fault. Which isn't to say that again, parents do play a role. And of course, you know, there is modeling of behaviors and actions and you know, that are then repeated again, so many dynamics.
- [31:49]
Mayim Bialik
But a lot of times kids are also playing out tension in the home.
- [31:52]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Exactly. As I say, it's kind of the tension or the, the dynamics that they see or tension that they're experiencing at school is now coming home and bullying. Or again, the parents doesn't have tools themselves so they're maybe engaging in different bullying behaviors and then the child is enacting it. Because again, children don't have language, they don't have logic, they are just being the reaction.
- [32:11]
Jonathan Cohen
Also the children may be playing out and then the parents get back and they don't know what actually happened.
- [32:16]
Mayim Bialik
Right.
- [32:17]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
So, so there is normal children developing alongside of each other. Of course there's going to be developmental challenges, there's going to be birth order challenges again, personality differences, personal differences, attention differences. Right. Children are attuned to the child who gets different treatment by parents or is, you know, kind of. There's so much that will then play out between siblings. So to be clear, you know, disagreements, conflicts, like any relationship, that is a normal part, especially when you're living in the pressure cooker, especially around some developmental ages, like pre adolescence. Adolescence, Right. A lot of hormones every year of their life, all of it. Right. I, I have two older siblings, but they are so older, 15 and 18 years older than me. That is as if I am an only child. So it's very unique experience. So I'm like, I have siblings, but it's not. We never had that. Like, I can't relate to like the sisterly, brotherly dynamic that some people can. But there is still a limit where it does cross over and into abusive behaviors, which can sometimes look like physical violence. Right. Where there's like physical escalations, altercations, it can look like more emotional where there is teasing or, you know, kind of defamatory statements or name calling, there can be ostracism if there's multiple children, right. Where one child is left out and there's just so many, again, interpersonal dynamics that will come and especially come out in the home again, that trickle down, you know, that a parent will often be modeling directly or indirectly or be the result of a child not having an outlet for the feelings.
- [33:52]
Mayim Bialik
And also, just to clarify, you're not saying that all teasing is abusive, you're saying that there's a level that, that can go to among siblings where it, it crosses that line 100.
- [34:06]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
A lot of it has to do, right.
- [34:07]
Mayim Bialik
With the person experience and frequency and intensity.
- [34:10]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
The teasing too. Right. You know, like there can be good natured fun and then teasing where the person is or says or is clearly uncomfortable and it is kind of crossing beyond good nature. But yeah, frequency, duration, things like that.
- [34:26]
Mayim Bialik
Things like that.
- [34:26]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
And especially if and when the child acknowledges, hey, this is hurting, stop, hey, this is making me uncomfortable. And it then when it continues, then I would say that's a good marker that it is.
- [34:37]
Mayim Bialik
How prevalent is sibling abuse, do you think?
- [34:40]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
I think it's probably more prevalent than we can even imagine because I think very few people, you know, want to share. It's kind of like it's hard sometimes for some of us to share our parents and what really happened or didn't happen in our home because again, we want to protect, we don't want to. We feel shameful that we've allowed those things to happen. Right.
- [34:58]
Mayim Bialik
Or it happened without our purview. Right.
- [35:00]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
All of for all of the reasons. So I don't know if there's like a person, a number that has even been landed on, but I would have the idea if there were to be a number out there that would probably be lower than because again, children are learning and they're taking in and they don't have and a lot of times, again, children are spending more time with the siblings, the parents. If parents aren't physically present in the home or emotionally present most of their time, I have the idea at least or with their siblings. So those then become the relationships where these dynamics play out.
- [35:29]
Jonathan Cohen
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- [35:32]
Mayim Bialik
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- [36:57]
Jonathan Cohen
Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again.
- [37:01]
Mayim Bialik
I think the jury has has given their verdict on hitting children. And I know that there are distinctions that people make between a swat on the tush when somebody runs out into the street versus a routinized you're going to be spanked versus also Being hit in anger, which is very, very disturbing and upsetting, obviously. But there's been kind of this seesaw, and I've heard more and more conversation about this is what's wrong with America is that kids don't have any respect because nobody's hitting them. And let's go back to the good old days where they knew who was in charge and they got a whopping once in a while, right? And I wonder if you can speak to a little bit about what happens, you know, kind of neurologically, somatically and also psychologically when a child's receiving someone else's inability to control their anger. Which as a parent, I can tell you every time I could imagine wanting to hurt my child, it was only because I did not have the support, the resources or the tools to handle what was otherwise pretty normal behavior. Can you talk a little bit about this?
- [38:23]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Yeah. I mean, the first thing I want to say to that is nothing degrees respect more than physical violence or boundaryless behavior in that way. Because that's what that is. It's a boundary violation. You've crossed the physical line and you've hit me and caused harm. In addition, it activates when someone is under physical assault, even when it's with a parent, which is even more confusing then, right? When the person that's supposed to love and care and support and protect you is now the person whose hand is causing you now physical pain, right? That immediately will even just a hand coming at you, right? Our nervous system that now is the threat. The hand doesn't matter that it's attached to my mom or my dad. It's a threatening hand. So now my nervous system is activated, right? I'm in a threatened state. And that is not going to elicit the respect that we're looking for.
- [39:11]
Mayim Bialik
And that's not teaching resilience because a lot of people will say, the world's hard. You gotta be prepared. And that's gonna just, you know, get
- [39:18]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
you ready for life to be clear. Boundaries teach resilience, right? Limits of two behavior, right? Teaching a child that a stove is hot, right? Limits the child's ability to be burnt or the possibility that the child is burned. So limits are absolutely right. But I think the question here is how do I. How do I kind of communicate the limits and then the consequences when limits are passed? And again, to be clear, physical violence is going to scare a child and not elicit the respect we're needing. So it's about, you know, communicating, right. Actions that have consequences, right? And allowing to some Extent when it's safe and appropriate, right? The child to live the consequence of the action and also to be the home safe base, right? When a child is overwhelmed and needs to then come back. But we need limits and we need to. And we can communicate, right? Consequences of actions in a different way, that doesn't activate because again, when a child is scared or threatened or abused by a parent, right now we have such a conflict that quite literally their biological wiring is saying, no, this is the person that you need to connect to, right? That's your safe space. And at the same time it's saying, but don't get too close, right? Because this person, if you act poorly or wrong or whatever, they're just in a bad mood from work. I mean, sometimes it's not even really you at all, right. Then they also could be the cause of your trauma and your wounding. And so now, right, we create a conflict within ourselves where again, as a child, we can't see our parent realistically or we can't allow in their inadequacy or their abusive behavior because that feels even scarier and more threatening, right? So we idealize them and degrade or shame ourselves.
- [41:06]
Mayim Bialik
And that kind of confusion is sort of like the best way to wound the inner child. That is that confusion. And even like when parents are, you know, even if there's not sexual abuse, right. If there's boundary boundaries crossed in terms of what you know about them or their lives, or there's comments or there's things. Those kinds of boundaries can be very confusing for a child. Right. And confusion is very upsetting to that inner child.
- [41:28]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Yeah. And so can a lack of. While you're just communicating. Confusion came to mind. So can a lack of conversation, Right. I think some of us were raised with parents who didn't want to the child to be exposed to anything. Everything happened between closed doors. Yet you knew that mom and dad were in a fight behind the doors because you felt the tension or you heard the yelling and then they come out like, don't say anything. So can silence, right? So sometimes, right, Boundaries and what's happening and just realistically communicating, you know what is happening. No, nothing can be more confusing. Especially in a divorce, right. When a child isn't told why separation is happening, a child will assume that they're the cause of it.
- [42:05]
Mayim Bialik
Oh, nobody knows what to tell kids, right?
- [42:07]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Even just acknowledging that it's not you. It can be as simple as we don't have to tell what happened in the relationship, but hey, I see you, I hear you. It's not you. It's okay to be sad. I might still hate the partner that I separated from, but I can understand why you still love your co, you know, the parent. And so there's just so much that, you know, parents, I think, again, try to do with well and good intentions, but even hitting right to some extent. The intention is to, you know, have a child who does not do unsafe things and has a resilience and can cope with the world. But that is, again, it is not the path to create that or instill that or even model that for a child.
- [42:43]
Mayim Bialik
You talk about shadow work. What would you like us to know about the forces that are operating that we don't see that may be having more of an impact on our lives than we even realize?
- [42:57]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Yeah. I think the takeaway for this whole conversation, I hope, is that there are forces that we're not seeing. Right. One of which is known as this kind of shadow or this, like, dark side. Even just kind of springboarding from the conversation about shame. A lot of what is contained in our shadow are all of those qualities or attributes about ourself that weren't welcome that did get us rejection or abandoned or shamed or ridiculed or abused in some way. Right. We've marked them as, you know, intolerable, unacceptable. They are still part of who we are. But because we've kind of been told that they are inappropriate in whatever way, we continue to keep them kind of of below the surface, feeling, again, that if we were to share those aspects of ourself, that we would be shamed and abandoned just like we once were. And then something else magical that we do with them is we project our shadow onto other people. And so we can tell, but with our reactions sometimes to other people. Right. Sometimes the things that bother us about there is the thing that we're kind of desperate to hide or desperately want to see within ourselves.
- [44:08]
Mayim Bialik
Can you give us some examples? Like, is this the same as, like, the disowned self, the exiled self? Is that what these.
- [44:13]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Because, yeah, this is common to those similar to those concepts.
- [44:16]
Mayim Bialik
And those are going to depend on the family. Like, so, for example, if you're in a family where being loud is not appreciated. Right.
- [44:23]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Loud people will be the bane of your existence. What's with, oh, they're so, so rude. So, you know, brass, or whatever it is that you might call that person too much. Right, Right. So we can kind of project loudness onto other people.
- [44:35]
Mayim Bialik
So that's my shadow being projected.
- [44:37]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Right. The things that we are annoyed for me, my shadow does not like when people can directly assert their needs. It can even be something helpful. I think you're selfish. Who are you? How dare you? You're inconsiderate. Another thing I love to write, really, because there's a part of me that desperately wants to be able to be assertive in that way, and I am still learning how that. To communicate my needs in a way that doesn't come out explosively or not come out at all, because. Well.
- [45:04]
Mayim Bialik
And I think this is like one of the most helpful kind of guideposts for the work that you do and the work that you share with people. Like, guess what? The way you're interacting with other people, even the things that bother you about other people, is actually not about them. And it's not necessarily about acceptance, Right. Because some people would say, like, oh, you need to be in acceptance and nothing will bother you. But this is about. If you spot it, you've got it. And what part of you hates the things that you hate in other people about yourself or what were you not allowed to express?
- [45:37]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Right.
- [45:37]
Mayim Bialik
I was recently talking with a family member of mine and we were talking about the different relationships our family has to money because there was none. So when there's poverty, right, you either have people who continue that poverty mindset and adjust it and kind of try and hide it. Right. Or you have people who are like, fuck it, I'll just spend it, all right? Like, once it exists. And so you have these two reactions that are both kind of the same thing. I'm afraid that there's not enough. Right. And so when you see people, if you're the poverty mindset person who's continued it, people who spend are frivolous and they're disgusting, wasteful, because you've disowned the part of yourself that deserves to have your needs met financially. Right.
- [46:19]
Jonathan Cohen
Help us leave this conversation with some
- [46:23]
Mayim Bialik
hope, a glimmer of hope for what
- [46:26]
Jonathan Cohen
life can be like. We've established that it's never going to be the perfect scenario. But give us a sense of what you hope for people to do this work and on the other side, what they can experience.
- [46:38]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Yeah. On the other side of this work is life, so to speak. Right. Is a life of connection, of awareness, of joy, sorrow.
- [46:47]
Mayim Bialik
Right.
- [46:47]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
All of these very complicated human emotions, again, that none of us get a guidebook for. It's. That is what is creating this human experience. I think we're all trying to figure out why we're here. And I think to some extent, it's for this reason, right? To have these more tangible experiences, to have an opportunity to learn and grow from another person. I mean, it really is. Relationships are mirrors. There are reflection, right? They bring up parts of us that we didn't know existed that we can be proud of and parts of us that we didn't know existed that we could, you know, kind of shift and change. It brings awareness for some of us who aren't certain of who we are and what we're doing and awareness of who we are and what we want and our desires, which then leads to fulfillment of those desires and purpose and passion. And to be clear, it doesn't have to be lived on a huge, you know, grand stage. Like, you know, we're obviously here doing this more publicly, but I mean, purpose is just showing up in our own creative action and impacting the lives around us. We become then reconnected to kind of all that is whatever the language we want to give, but the fact that we are not alone. Even those of us that feel so deeply alone. I can't. I remember throughout, up until my 30s, really, I was a little girl living in New York, feeling alone in a crowded room, no matter who was around me at all times, right? So. So we can re establish a connection that even if we are living alone for whatever reason, that we are connected to something beyond ourselves and kind of a transcendental state of just greater, you know, knowing. I do think that that's possible for all of us as we begin the journey. And the final takeaway is again, there's not a like, too late, it's done. I'm setting in stone. Even though some of our parents. My dad likes to tell me how he just is how he is because he's 88 years old now and. And we might hear that from some loved ones, though the reality is we can truly create change and impact and transform at any time.
- [48:39]
Mayim Bialik
I'm also 88 years old, so I do believe I can change. I highly recommend, and I've already recommended this book to many, many people because so many of us also were like, doing the work and we're going to 12 step and we have therapy and we're doing somatic work and we're trying to take the supplement. But honestly, like this book, it's a workbook. This is the kind of thing we need. This is that you had a life and you went to school and you got this degree, but you didn't decide to save it only for yourself. And this book is a way like this is it purchase this book, download this book. It's a workbook. And if you work through it, treat it like it's your therapy. If you cannot afford therapy, we know there's a lot of people who can't. This is what you do in therapy and treat it like it's serious work. And all of it's in there. Do the questions, do the exercises. Learn to calm your vagus nerve down. This is really it. So really, really, it's. It's a fantastic book. And your practice is unbelievable. I also can't believe that you copy wrote holistic psychologist and that gets to be your name. It's amazing. I know.
- [49:45]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
I couldn't believe it. I knew. Yes, I know. When I first signed on, I felt like, okay, now the universe is telling me I have to do this too, because who would have ever thought that six years ago no one was kind of thinking in this way? I mean, it blew my mind and it was the universe begrudgingly telling me to walk.
- [50:00]
Mayim Bialik
It's amazing. Thank you so much. Dr. Nicole Lapera. Thank you so much.
- [50:04]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
Thank you both for having me. This is really great.
- [50:09]
Mayim Bialik
I absolutely see this as not even the future of growth. It's the present of growth you cannot avoid. Like, you can, you can try and avoid it, but yeah, you can't avoid all of these patterns. You know, I think of people who are really into cognitive behavioral therapy, which I absolutely believe in, and I think it's very useful. But I think in some cases it really does make sense to say, not that my parents were wrong and not that I'm broken, but to say, oh, this is why that happened. Like when you shared that realization you had that you were having anger that you even realized was not proportional to the situation. For you to be able to say, ah, it's old, you know, and, and I think you've done some healing from that as well. Sometimes just learning about it is actually transformative, you know?
- [51:05]
Jonathan Cohen
Absolutely. And if you're someone who is spiritual, who wants to get in touch with their intuition, who likes to think about consciousness and how the universe works, guess what? Your universe, your individual, personal world is being impacted by this.
- [51:22]
Mayim Bialik
Yes. And I think this is a really, this is a great place to start. And yes, from this leads to being more in touch with yourself. Knowing who you are, knowing what your needs are, knowing where you keep getting blocked, and possibly even knowing why jobs aren't working for you, relationships aren't working for you, and why your path isn't working for you. It's literally the path to intuition.
- [51:43]
Jonathan Cohen
It's about knowing how you interpret the world. If you think, oh my gosh, that person is some way, guess what? It's likely the result of something going on inside of you.
- [51:52]
Mayim Bialik
Really hope you check out Reparenting the Inner Child So grateful we finally got to speak to Dr. Lapera. I think that's it. We hope you join us on Substack. We've got a really, really great bonus content from this episode where Dr. Lipara walks us through three vagus nerve exercises to try and encourage your body to rewire.
- [52:13]
Jonathan Cohen
Additionally, on a Substack live where Mayim and I break down these episodes and expand on the content that we talk about here, we're gonna touch on Glimmers, a practice that allow you to find little moments of awe in the world that actually activate you on a emotional level, on a biological level, and help you feel more alive. Join us Mayimbialix Breakdown on Substack and
- [52:37]
Mayim Bialik
from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.
- [52:40]
Jonathan Cohen
It's Maya Bialik's breakdown.
- [52:42]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
She's gonna break it down for you
- [52:44]
Jonathan Cohen
she's got a neuroscience PhD or two non fiction and now she's gonna break
- [52:49]
Dr. Nicole Lapera
down so break down she's gonna break it down.