← Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Part Two: Can God Heal Your Gut? After His Father Died Unexpectedly, He Shares the Paternal Messages he Received from Beyond that Propelled His Own Spirituality. Learn How Belief, Safety, and Trust Shape the Body’s Ability to Heal. | Dr Will Bulsiewicz
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A
Mind Breakdown is supported by Helix Sleep
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B
Spring is in the air and so are all of the allergens that come with it. Spring allergens means you need more sleep, but there are a ton of factors that can prevent us from getting a good night's rest. Night sweats, back pain, Feeling the person next to you when they roll over a million times. We were so excited to hear that Helix wanted to partner with us. I've had my Helix mattress for about five years now and I have been sleeping so much better. Jonathan and also our kids love their Helix mattresses and all of those issues. Night sweats, back pain, motion transfer. Those things are significantly better with a Helix mattress. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door which is so much fun. With free shipping in the US they have a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Plus they're happy with Helix Guarantee Rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix Guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure that you're completely satisfied with your new Mattress. Go to helixsleep do slbreakdown for 27% off site wide that's helixsleep.com breakdown for 27% off site wide helixleep.com breakdown With Verbal's last minute deals, you can save over $50 on your spring getaway. So whether it's a mountain escape with friends, a family week at the beach or sightseeing in a new city, there's still time to get great discounts. Book your next day Now. Average savings $72 select homes only. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.
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A
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
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B
And welcome to our breakdown. Welcome to part two of our conversation with Dr. Will Bulsiewicz or Dr. B. Celebrated gastroenterologist, author, author. He's talking about his new book Plant Powered plus, which covers not only critically important information about gut health, mental health, immune health, but did you know that spiritual health is part of an entire plan for your healthy lifestyle? We have a fascinating conversation with Dr. B. Part one introduced a lot of the basics that many of us may not realize about how our spiritual health is can impact the rest of our health. And in part two, we're going to get even deeper into GLP1s veganism versus carnivore diet and all about the circadian rhythms of your immune system.
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A
He explains why we need variety in our diets, why the carnivore diet and specific trends like the sardine diet can lead to nutrient deficiency, why fasting works for some people and the key Benefit to when we should eat. Why consistency matters.
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B
Make sure to join us over on Substack for more conversations that you can only get over there. Bialikbreakdown.substack.com and here is part two of our conversation with Dr. B. Break it down. Even since you know you wrote fiber fueled so much continues to change and evolve. One of the things that's changed and evolved is GLP1s, which obviously have existed, but the use of that drug I think has really changed the landscape of how we view health because I know many people taking it and they're thrilled because they no longer eat and so they're getting really skinny. That's my super layperson's explanation of the way that I have heard people talking about it. Obviously it's an incredible drug. It's an important drug for people who need it for diabetes. Like I'm all about it, but it's really changed the conversation around food because people are also trying to then maximize what they do need to eat. In addition, fasting has become a much more talked about topic and another arena where, yes, if you eat less calories, you're gonna be consuming less. What do those kinds of changes mean for you as you tackle plant powered plus and, and what other things have you seen shifting? I mean I've heard so many more people talking about keto, so many more people doing the like pure meat diet. Like none of this will ever make sense to me, but maybe I also am missing something. What's changed? What do you see as kind of the main features of, of this landscape?
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C
So first of all, it is wild how quickly we can flip from like diametrically opposed diets and make them the trendy diet of the moment. Right? We went from literally there was like nothing in between. We went from basically a vegan plant based diet in 2020 to by 2023. Carnivore was the trendy diet and vegan was way out.
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B
Also our perception of body positivity changed in that time as well. Right?
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C
Our perception of body positivity changed ways. We went from having to rectify what our own lives are, which is that 75% of America was at least overweight. Right? So having to like sort of rectify that and accepting that like, you know, when you look out at America, that's normal. That doesn't mean that that's optimal. But in processing that, that's one of the ways that we sort of processed that and you know, and along came these GLP1s.
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B
We went from me liking the mannequins at Target to, to them not needing those mannequins anymore because we're going to go back to the other mannequins.
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C
That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't thought about it that way. That's. I guess I just haven't been shopping to Target that much. But yeah, so. And I think that, like, the key, the, the key thing, first of all, that I want people to hear is that the thread of science doesn't flip in three years. So it does, it doesn't flip on its head like that. That's completely insane.
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B
I think most people would say, what do you mean? Because I, I'm even like, I don't know.
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C
Science is a, is a, is a build. We're constantly refining ourselves. We're constantly adding new information that we can apply to our knowledge base. And that does cause shifts, but the shifts are small. Right. You. You can continue to sort of refine. So as I write a book, I'm, I'm coming from the perspective of like, I don't start with the outcome or the end point. I start with the science. What does the data show for me to help you to get to the end point? Everyone wants to be in like a camp of like, hey, I'm on this side, I'm in favor or I'm against. Right. When like, the truth is these are nuanced conversations. So for the people who need these drugs, because there are many, I am so glad that we have these drugs. They need these drugs. They are going to be better, they will be healthier, they will reduce their risk of disease because they're using these drugs.
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B
It's a lifesaver for some people.
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C
But at the same time, there's a part of me that's a little bit sad about our process, because basically our process was that we're going to create a lifestyle, including a diet that puts us into such a health crisis that we need a solution. And then the solution that we propose is not to actually examine the lifestyle and diet that got us there. The solution that we propose is to leave that alone. Eat what you want to eat, live how you want to live, but take this drug. And there is a part of me that says, and this is, this is just being upfront and honest as a medical doctor. Like, people who defend these drugs, they're like, well, we know a lot. We've been using them for eight years, 10 years. Right? Every single. First of all, there are many side effects at baseline. And I'm not trying to like, fear monger with that but like, every drug has side effects, and there are definitely side effects with these drugs. But also every single drug, the more experience that we get, the longer the time goes on, the more that we realize unintended consequences that we couldn't see coming. For most of my career as a gastroenterologist, so you have to understand, Jonathan, if you come to see me with acid reflux, there is this knee jerk reaction as a gastroenterologist. You don't even have to think, it's just like, zing. I'm writing a prescription for Nexium. I'm writing a prescription for Protonix. These are drugs called proton pump inhibitors. And for most of my career, the way that I saw it was there's no downside other than the cost. Whatever it costs is the downside. But other than that, there's no side effects.
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B
You're just inhibiting a proton pump. What could go wrong?
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C
Right. You're alleviating, you're alleviating symptoms. People feel better fast. They work. These drugs work.
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B
I want that.
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C
Right? Yes.
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So.
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C
And like, patients, you know, they loved it, right. Because they showed up for a solution you gave.
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B
Everybody was on it.
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C
Yeah. So you put them on it, they're on it in perpetuity. Right. And then the problem is that what we haven't really done is taken a step back to say, okay, well, what role does stomach acid serve in our body? Right? Because it's there for a reason. Didn't just show up for no reason. So. And there were these studies that started to show up about 10 years ago, maybe a little bit more like, think 2010 to 2015. Okay. Where they were like, hey, proton pump inhibitor use is associated with dementia. Hey, proton pump inhibitor use is associated with chronic kidney disease. Hey, proton pump inhibitor use is associated with cardiovascular risk.
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A
And just because you didn't know about the side effects doesn't mean there weren't any.
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C
The way that gastroenterologists process this. And keep in mind that there is a steady drumbeat of pharmaceutical reps providing lunch to your office. And this is sort of the trade is like, they provide the lunch for your office. Your staff is very happy because they get their food and then they get some time with you. And you sit there and you have a chat and they're going to frame this, these studies for you. The pharmaceutical rep to the medical doctor.
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B
And the pharmaceutical rep, I just want people to know is not a medical doctor.
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C
Definitely not a medical doctor.
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B
Like, really not a medical doctor. Like, with all due respect to pharmaceutical
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A
reps, they've been a salesperson, they've been giving. They've been given talking points by their sales lead to say, this is how you can make sense of this.
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C
And there is regulation. There is regulation, to be fair, there is regulation of what they're allowed to say and what they're not allowed to say.
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B
But they are not medical doctors.
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C
They're not medical doctors. But within that sort of regulatory framework, you can figure out, right? These are big businesses that have tons of resources to figure out the right way to basically activate their entire nationwide army.
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B
The series on Netflix about OxyContin, they focus specifically on the pharmaceutical reps and the, the sales techniques that are used by these companies to get their message out.
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C
Well, and to be fair, that's. That's a whole different level.
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B
Totally.
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C
Yes.
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No, but I'm just. No, but I'm just saying in terms of the infrastructure, the way that the business works.
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C
But the issue is, in Miami, you know this from your academic background, that science is very open to debate, right? That, like, it's very hard to make something so cut and dry that you couldn't have a discourse. So the issue is, if it's open to debate, then you take these studies that find these associations with these health conditions and you present the argument that it's not real.
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So what does the rep say when they're over lunch?
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B
I could tell you just like he's presenting it and saying these associations are something to be concerned about. They'll pull out stats and they'll be like, oh, in a placebo study, we found this, and it's not statistically significant. There's every reason that you're saying that it is something to be concerned about. They have something to counter it with.
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C
You've heard of the healthy user bias. So the healthy user bias is when they find that something is beneficial is because really what you're studying is like these are the healthy people who are exercising and sleeping and. Right. So this is like the opposite of that, which is that the argument becomes that you're detecting comorbidities, meaning like other health conditions in people, that the entire reason that they came to the doctor in the first place is because they're generally sick, right? That if they were healthy people, they would have never come to the doctor, they would have never needed this drug. So you basically say, well, the drug
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B
is not, you know, they were going to die anyway.
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C
And they're basically saying it's not caused, right? Like it's not the proton pump inhibitor correlation causing the problem. It's correlation not causation.
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A
So how do you make sense of it?
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C
Basically, fast forward to as I'm like, studying the microbiome, which is this new thing, and I'm like, you know, I would like to think of myself as a pioneer in space because I was thinking about these things and writing about these things before other people were.
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B
You were annoying me about my gut. Before I knew everyone would be worried about my gut.
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C
I was writing about fiber five years before fiber maxing.
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B
That's right.
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C
All right. Which I appreciate those kids for doing that. As I was learning about the gut, you start to ask the question, whoa, time out. Hold on. I've totally dismissed these studies. But what if stomach acid is there because it keeps our microbiome in balance. And if you take that stomach acid away, which is meant to have a specific effect on your microbiome, it allows the overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, which we know with total clarity at this point, that small intestine bacterial overgrowth is associated with the use of these drugs, Sibo. Sibo. And if you have that health condition, then that's indicative of a broader dysbiosis. And if you believe, like I believe, that the gut microbiome is connected to the brain, is connected to the kidneys, it's connected to the heart, is connected to the immune system, then right there, you just identified the potential mechanism where a proton pump inhibitor could be associated with increased risk of Alzheimer's, chronic kidney disease, or heart disease.
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So my ambialix breakdown is supported by bioptimizers.
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B
I struggled to get good quality sleep and I just thought, like, ugh, it's stress. But I learned during perimenopause and menopause, your hormones shift and it affects your magnesium levels. Low magnesium makes everything harder. Not just sleep, but focus, mood, stress tolerance. That's why we added Magnesium Breakthrough by Bio Optimizers to our nightly routine. It's a blend of seven different forms of magnesium designed to support relaxation and overall sleep quality. Try it. See if you wake up more rested and refreshed, you've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Bio Optimizers offers a 365 day, no questions asked money back guarantee. Magnesium Breakthrough is a fantastic way to improve that hormonal imbalance that especially happens with magnesium. And then you have better focus, you have better sleep hygiene in general. Bioptimizers makes it so easy. Here's what you get when you go to buy optimizers.com breaker and use the code breaker. 15% off your entire order And a free bottle of Mass Times. That's BioPhimizer's best selling digestive enzyme added to your order automatically when you use our exclusive code. That's a $20 product, free on top of your discount. This is a limited time offer while supplies last. You cannot get this on Amazon, you can't get it in stores. The offer exists in one place. Our link, our code. That's it. So if you were already thinking about trying it, this is the sign. Go to bioptimizers.com breaker. Use the code breaker. Grab it before it's gone.
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Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again. Mind Bialix Breakdown is supported by Bioptimizers.
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B
You know, I struggled to get good quality sleep and I just assumed it was stress. But as I learned during perimenopause and menopause, your hormones shift in a way that affects your magnesium levels. And low magnesium, it makes everything harder. Not just sleep, focus, mood, your tolerance for stress. That's why I have added Magnesium Breakthrough by by optimizers to my nightly routine. It's a blend of seven different forms of magnesium designed to support relaxation and overall sleep quality. Try it. See if you wake up more rested and refreshed, you've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Bio Optimizers offers a 365 day, no questions asked money back guarantee. Magnesium Breakthrough is a huge breakthrough to improve hormonal balance, to help with focus, decrease brain fog, improve sleep hygiene. Overall, Bioptimizers makes it very easy. Jonathan. What do they get when they go to bioptimizers.com breaker and use the code breaker?
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You get 15% off your entire order and a free bottle of Mask Bioptimizers,
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That's a $20 product, free on top of your discount already.
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This is a limited time offer and while supplies last, you can't get it on Amazon, you can't get it in stores. This offer exists in one place. Our link, our code. That's it. So maybe you were already thinking about it. This is the sign. Go to buyoptimizers.com breaker. Use the code breaker. Grab it before it's gone. Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping again.
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C
Point with the GLPs is that we have kids. Kids that we're putting on these drugs.
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B
We also have adults at a healthy body weight who are being put on these drugs.
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C
Well, putting themselves on these drugs, they're, they're they're.
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B
Well, I've, I've walked into more than one office at a size 8, 10 to be asked if I'd like a GLP to be approached at what would be considered in also any other city. Right. In America, pretty much as, oh, this is a body weight. Yeah. If you live in certain places, that's seen as a detriment.
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A
What do you see for the kids, though? You're starting them so early. Where do you see this going?
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C
Or like someone our age even? Right. Like what happens when you use these drugs for 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years? Because here's, here's the issue is that we, we don't know what's going to happen when you use it that long. But if you take the drug away, the weight comes back.
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B
A friend of mine said she practically, she forgot her medicine or whatever ran out. She said she practically ate the table that the food was on. She said it was like your whole brain comes back. She said she's like, I'm going to be on this drug forever.
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C
And I don't mean for this to sound like a conspiracy. Like I don't think that there's like a nefarious thing. I think that what we have here is these are pharmaceutical companies that they're a business, they're incentivized to sell, and unless we forced them to, they would never do something to undermine their own business. That would be stupid. Right. But the problem is that the study that we need is to answer the question, how do we put a person on this drug, change other things, not just the drug itself, change their diet, change their lifestyle, and then ultimately, at some, at some time point in the future, maybe it's 1, 3, 5 years, we remove the drug and they still maintain most of the weight loss. How do we accomplish that? We need that study. But the drug company is never, ever going to fund that study.
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A
They do not want that as the business model.
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C
No. And so what we have here is we have an on ramp onto the highway of GOP use for life, and you're not getting off the highway.
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A
What is the argument in your perspective for like the worst case scenario for what it might be doing to the body long term?
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B
Is it the perineum swelling one?
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C
Oh, dear.
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B
Don't some of them. Right. Don't some of them have that horrible warning? I'm not sure one of them has a warning where I'm literally having to give my teenagers a biology lesson about what the.
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C
About the perineum.
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B
Correct. I'm like, I did not expect this during Family Feud because a lot of these drugs they have and they have to read all the side effects. And I'm thinking this is more information than Anyone needed at 7pm if we're
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A
following the understanding of potential leaky gut. Right. These people likely don't have great metabolic function to start with. They may be having leaky gut. You're not addressing any of the emotional issues. All you're doing is restricting the need for food. Likely they're on the drugs, their gut is still leaky for the food that they are having. They may be having compromised immune function. They may be, you know, still in a very highly activated state, potentially like. Okay, so where does that go?
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C
Well, so we have to, we have to present both sides of this because. For sure, because the issue is that if you take a person like, if these drugs are properly applied within the context of obesity, when you reduce their weight and you bring them into metabolic balance, actually the expectation is that the leaky gut will improve and that inflammation actually subsides. And there's data to back that up.
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B
Well, they also would need psychological support, nutritional support, you know, support that we don't really have an infrastructure for in this country presently. But they would need tools.
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C
Well, that's where the ball gets dropped because that's not actually part of the equation. Mayim. So basically the equation is basically like you're overweight. We want to give you this drug, here's the drug, we're going to tell you the side effects because we're required to do that. And then you're going to take the drug and then whatever happens, happens. That's not the same as presenting the drug with surrounding support.
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B
Well, or saying the God shaped hole is shaped like all of your favorite junk food. Right. And what this drug does is it makes you think that the God shaped hole is full largely because we are bowing to the God of vanity. Right. Materialism, all these things. I mean, not to paint with again, too broad a brush. But when you take that drug away, guess what? Your God shaped hole is waiting for you. It's like put all the junk food in there. That's the shape that we are today.
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C
The problem too, Jonathan, is that if you cut calories but you don't change your diet, you're taking a junk food diet that kind of got you into this mess in the first place and you're just shrinking it down. It's a total setup for nutritional deficiencies. Who knows where that takes us, right? We already have nutritional deficiencies with a full sized Diet.
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B
And we know that losing weight like that, you don't lose it the same way that you would if you're doing it by other means. You can tell by sort of the structure of people's faces, right? When people call it ozempic face, it's literally that like fat deposits, things are placing themselves in different ways that we are already seeing, do have an impact on muscle mass, on things like that, which especially for women, where we're losing estrogen and all these things that help with muscle mass and building up our strength, these things can also be working in opposition.
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A
What does a nutritional deficiency look like? I think some people will be like, well, I might be a little deficient, but I'll just supplement. But my suspicion is that it starts to present weird problems that then you go to a different doctor for and they're not looking holistically and you start to get this strange patchwork.
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C
You have to look at like, what is the specific nutritional deficiency that we're referring to, right? So like it could be a vitamin B12 deficiency, which could start manifesting with numbness and tingling in your fingers, but then progress into something more complex. From a neurologic perspective, it could be
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B
not enough protein because you're eating two meals a day and one of them is a salad, right. And you're not putting any protein on it.
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C
Right? It could be not enough protein. Although. And the protein conversation we can absolutely
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B
have, I mean, please, I need help.
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C
Okay. It could be not enough protein, but I actually think that like our number one deficiency is fiber deficiency. So 95% of America is deficient in fiber before we calorically restrict them. Right. Can you imagine what we're gonna like? Basically, unless you've made it your mission to focus on fiber, when you go onto the GLP1, you're gonna end up in a dramatic fiber deficiency. And that affects your gut.
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B
95% of people are deficient in that 95%.
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C
So Mayim, here's the data. The average woman in the United States,
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B
no one eats enough veggies.
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C
No one eats enough veggies or any plant based food. Right? Because they all, all contain fiber. So the average woman in the United states consumes about 15 grams of fiber per day. She should be getting 25.
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B
Okay?
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C
So she's like 60% of where she's supposed to be. Almost has to double it just to get to the lowest level of normal men. We're actually even worse. The Average man is 18 grams per day, but we should be getting 38. So we're less than half.
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A
Why do we need so much fiber and how much protein do we actually need?
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C
If I were to separate these two, and I think there's value and they're not mutually exclusive, like they're not in competition with each other. You can have both. All plant based foods have protein by the way. So if I were to separate these two. Protein is the muscle nutrient, right? Like if you want to build muscle mass, you need sufficient protein in order to actually fulfill that nutrition goal. Fiber is the longevity nutrient because not only is it good for our gut microbiome, but it allows us to create from fiber short chain fatty acids, acetate, proprietate and butyrate. These are the most anti inflammatory things that I've ever come across. They have healing effects on your gut microbiome. They restore and repair your gut barrier. They directly affect your immune system to suppress inflammation. They help you get these special immune cells called T helper cells that basically are like the, the peacekeepers of your immune system and help to keep everyone organized and not get out of control and fight each other. And that has healing effects throughout the entire body from head to toe, including your brain, including your blood brain barrier. Short chain fatty acids are powerfully anti inflammatory. So when we are missing protein, it becomes hard to build muscle mass. We get sarcopenic, that's the term, the medical term for having low muscle mass. And when we have insufficient fiber, then we suffer the consequences in terms of our gut health, but also more broadly
- [25:25]
B
health throughout our entire body in terms of protein. One of the most common things that's changed since, you know, fiber fueled is I, I would call it an abnormal obsession with meat. I blame the Internet, Sure. I mostly blame men because there's a huge component of the manosphere that is all about how much meat can you eat. And it went from like as a vegan person, you know, raised when there wasn't any vegan food, you just sort of like ate, you know, noodles with marinara and french fries, right. And salad, until the world woke up and tried to give us more options. But this notion of like, oh, you don't need that much protein, like America's getting too much protein as it is. You can be a vegan and be healthy. And now we're seeing the most unhealthy thing you can be is vegan because there's no way that you can get the massive amount of protein that you need, which can only be achieved through meat. How can these two things exist in the same universe?
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C
I mean, I think that we've Gotten totally twisted up. And, you know, protein is a great sell. Like, if you want to sell in the nutrition space, you make protein the centerpiece. And people go crazy because they love it. I don't know if it's that we've been sort of conditioned to believe this right through like lots of sort of media through the years, or if it's just like our natural desire to consume that type of food that people have. And so, and then they lean into it. The, the issue that I see is the amount that's being recommended is like kind of absurd. And the problem that you're bringing up, Mayim, is that, so you'll hear people who say 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Okay, so like I'm 215 pounds. I'm 6 foot 4, 215 pounds. So I'd have to have 215 grams
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B
of protein per day. That feels crazy.
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C
I want to sort of like position this, contextualize this number. Okay. And I'm going to switch into, I'm going to change the even half that
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B
feels excessive, but I don't know.
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C
So half of that wouldn't be, wouldn't be bad. You would still be. Actually, half of that would. You would still be above the minimum recommended. So you'd still be safe.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So the, the minimum recommended amount in grams per kilogram of body weight.
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B
Yes.
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C
Okay. Is 0.8. Now this is 2.2, 2.2 grams per kilogram. So you're almost triple the minimal recommended amount, the amount that I would recommend for the vast majority of people. Allow me to dive into the nuance for a quick moment because there's not a one size fits all numbers, and male versus female does matter a little bit. But like, we have to talk more broadly. The, the number that I would recommend is 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram. This is the recommended amount in terms of being able to sufficiently provide the amino acids, specifically these amino acids that we would call essential means you have to get them from your diet. You can't, your body can't make them for you. So it gives you the right amount of those amino acids to build the muscle mass that you're looking for. That way you're not actually depriving your muscles and they can stay as big, plump and healthy as possible. Because muscles are not just vanity organs. Muscles are metabolic powerfully. They're really important, and they protect us from falls as we get older. One of the biggest travesties in the women's health space through the years is that we have not encouraged women to do resistance exercise, meaning strength training. We've made it sound like cardio is the only way or yoga. Those are your choices.
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B
Well, because you won't fit into the clothes that they want you to wear.
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C
You need resistance training just as much as I do.
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B
I do.
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C
But Jonathan and I, we need cardio just as much as you do.
- [29:07]
B
Well, and broad shoulders in men is seen as powerful and, you know, clothes friendly. And in women, it's seen as like you have a boyish frame.
- [29:16]
C
If you're going to work out in the gym and you're trying to build muscle mass, then you need more protein. So for example, today I worked out before I came here on that particular day, you would, you would be better off being closer to 1.6. But if you're not actively trying to build muscle mass, you're not working out. The vast majority of America is not working out. Then they don't need to be 1.6 because that's an excessive amount of protein. They would be perfectly healthy to be 1.2.
- [29:41]
A
What about the conversation that animal protein is more bioavailable than plant protein? And actually if you want to get the right amino acids and to make sure that your body is using that fuel that you know, you need even more plant protein than animal protein.
- [29:56]
C
If we were to make this one gram per pound our goal, again, I don't agree with that. Part of why I don't agree with it is that it kind of forces you to either consume animal protein or to take supplements.
- [30:13]
A
I mean, just, just for context, like a pound of ground beef is about 75 grams of protein. So if I'm trying to get to 200, like that's a lot of meat.
- [30:25]
C
That's right. And it would be even harder if you were eating a salad, right, which has like, which proportionally doesn't have much protein.
- [30:34]
B
You'd be eating five meals a day, essentially with a large chunk of protein in each of those meals. That's what you have to do.
- [30:40]
C
This is to me why I push back against this. It's not so much that I'm scared of the protein, it's more so that you're forcing people into a choice where they're going to basically like reduce their plant based intake. We don't need people reducing their plant based intake. Because. Because at the end of the day, if we want to get people healthy, the status quo is a problem. Right. And as we sit here today, only 10% of our calories come from plant based foods. 90% of our calories are coming from either ultra processed foods, that's the tom that's the dominant driver, or animal products. Right. So, so if we want to get people healthy, if we want to address our fiber deficiency, we ultimately need to start to increase and incorporate these plant based foods which will provide you with the fiber that your body and your microbes are starving for. And there's protein in there. I'm not, I don't eat meat. I am not struggling for protein. I have not been restricted in my ability to gain in my 40s. I'm 45 years old. I'm lifting the heaviest weights in my life.
- [31:40]
A
What is your primary protein source? I mean, understandable that it's in all the vegetables, but are you adding like
- [31:45]
C
a. I'm a big bean guy. So to me, beans are the consummate microbiome food because they have fiber resistant starches and polyphenols and they're actually quite high in protein and they're dirt cheap.
- [31:59]
B
They also do have a lot of carbs.
- [32:01]
C
Carbs. Depends on how you look at it though. Because if the carbs are the, if the carbs are.
- [32:04]
B
It depends on how my stomach looks at it.
- [32:06]
C
How your stomach looks at it.
- [32:08]
B
Well, I think.
- [32:08]
C
Does this works your butcher?
- [32:09]
B
I think no. I think like, I think for certain, you know, I'm learning more about, you know, like fat distribution for women. I'm post menopausal and have been for several years. That is hard to not have weight accumulating in certain places. I, it's a, I think it's a challenge for a lot of women, but I don't know a lot of vegan women. So that's what people always say to me, like, oh, you're eating so many beans, it's so carb heavy. You just eat carbs all day.
- [32:36]
C
Well, I would push back against the idea of like reducing things to a macronutrient, which is like when we say carbs because fiber is a carb, resistant starches are carbs. Right, right. Those are not like contributing calories. If anything, they're reducing calories. Right. And they're helping you have better blood sugar control, better gut health, lowering your cholesterol. Right. So there's a lot of good that comes from those carbs as opposed to like sugar. I feel better if I were to sort of like define okay, metabolically how, how would I approach this? I want to basically like get the satiating, I want the satiating nutrients. Right. So fiber and protein are the two main satiating nutrients which you can get these from plant based foods. I'm not saying that it has to be all or nothing. That is not the argument. Right. The argument is that we are insufficiently consuming the plant based food. So if we could take whole plant foods and increase them, you would get satiated when you eat. You would know naturally when to stop eating. You would get the fiber your gut needs, you would get the protein your muscles need, and you wouldn't actually need the GLP one.
- [33:36]
A
This episode is sponsored by Wondering Jews, an open door media brand.
- [33:41]
B
If you've ever found yourself feeling like you have more questions than answers, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bitton and Noam Weissman, dig into the biggest questions about life through a Jewish lens. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, learn something new, and probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Noam tackle the tough topics like anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the future of religion with guests like Brett Stevens, Michael Rapoport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this past month, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they've been celebrating some of the Jewish lives and institutions that have shaped American life, from food to music and comedy. Thoughtful, joyful, and always honest. That's Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam, a production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure to hit subscribe. Check out Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam podcast and subscribe at Unpacked Bio nmx.
- [34:43]
A
Help me understand the Internet phenomenon right now that people should only eat sardines and that butyrate is created from the fat in the sardines, which is actually what's helping line the gut.
- [34:59]
B
I'm so grossed out by sardines. I just want everyone to know that they're all packed in there and they're laying next to each other. It's just a sad fish.
- [35:06]
A
Well, fundamentally, you know, this is talking about ketosis and the need for our body to be in a ketone creating state and that when we are in a, you know, our blood sugar is constantly being spiked. We're never actually using ketones, we're always using sugar. Help us understand this.
- [35:25]
C
Okay, before we jump into talking about like the butyrate and ketones and things like this, because there is an interesting metabolic conversation and I want to, despite my implicit Desire to just dismiss the whole idea. I would rather just kind of explain it. Right. But before we jump in there, any diet where you are told to eat only one thing constantly is a total setup for failure because there is no perfect food. Right? So basically what you're going to take is whatever it is that is most powerfully represented in that food, and ultimately you're going to over consume it. And anything that ends up over consumed becomes problematic. But at the same time, sardines or kale or frankly, any food on the planet is insufficient in something. Right? This is the argument for dietary variety.
- [36:18]
B
There's not one food that covers all your bases.
- [36:20]
C
No, there's not one food. And so if you were to eat for variety, you allow the strengths of the individual foods to basically collectively work together. Right. And it addresses the deficiencies that exist within that collective whole. Right. So, and that's like, to me, the argument for eating variety. And so any diet that tells you whether it were sardines only, whether it's red meat only, or honestly, whether it's like fruit only, right, that's trash. These are horrible ideas. There's no way, there's no way that it's a balanced, healthy diet. Even if, even if I believe that within the context of a balanced diet, sardines are healthy. Right. There are things that exist within sardines that are good for us, like Omega 3s, but the problem is you're going to have like Omega 3s dripping out of your eyeballs.
- [37:07]
B
Like you only need so many Omega 3s is what you're saying.
- [37:10]
C
Yeah, so, so Omega 3 in the same way that like, there's a certain amount of protein that your body actually is going to use.
- [37:14]
B
Right? Right.
- [37:15]
C
If you think about oxygen or water or salt, these are essential nutrients. Our life, our body cannot exist without them. But at the same time, in the hospital, we have the ability to put a person on 100% oxygen, right? The, the atmosphere is like 21%. We have the ability to put someone on 100% oxygen. Guess what? If you do that for too long, it destroys their lungs. It is not healthy. If you take water, we all need water. We need hydration. You consume too much water, dilute all your electrolytes to weed out your electrolytes to the point that you can actually cause a seizure. Right? And if you take salt, we need salts. But if you excessively consume salt, that becomes dangerous. So like with all of these things, there is, there is a proper place, there's balance. But when we go and we just like Mono food, it. That's insane. That'll never be the right answer. So I don't care how trendy it sounds.
- [38:15]
B
And also, I mean with fish, with any fish, we have over farmed the oceans, lakes, streams and seas. There's also a huge concern with mercury. Everything that's in the water is in that fish. That's literally its bloodstream. Right. So that's also a concern as well when you talk about things like that.
- [38:32]
C
Yeah, the nanoplastics. The nanoplastics are like a big concern that's emerging right now, I think.
- [38:38]
A
You know, the other part of this is like, okay, let's say it's not forever. I think what that argument is trying to activate is even if it's on a short term basis, they're saying, okay, the high protein and high fat content is going to allow the body to stay in ketosis. How important do you see ketosis being? And part of the reason that they're suggesting this is for people who can't get into ketosis. So they're sort of giving them high fat satiating food that allows them to try and get there.
- [39:08]
C
This is the pescatarian version of a carnivore diet. Right. Like it says. So it's a zero carb diet. So within the frame it's like basically taking a ketogenic diet but making it so that it will definitely get you into the ketosis because there are no carbs. There's no carbs in your diet at all. And so, okay, let's start from the baseline of acknowledging that the western diet is complete and total trash. That so a western diet is basically made up of sugar, salt and junk fat. Right. And that I found in my book. So in my book I described over 130 health conditions, not just GI issues, not just autoimmune issues, over 130 health conditions associated with inflammation and also associated with damage to the gut microbiome. Okay? So now out of those 130, I also found 55 of them. Where I can pull the study that shows you that the western diet, which is basically the way we eat in America, right. Is associated with an increased risk of that particular disease. Now that's 55 out of roughly 130. The others, the rest of them, they just haven't studied them yet.
- [40:15]
B
That's one of the most powerful things I think that we can try and communicate to people.
- [40:19]
C
So the status quo cannot be accepted. Right. We just can't. So if we move towards a ketogenic diet versus if we Move towards a high fiber diet. These are different directions because the ketogenic diet is zero fiber. The high fiber diet is what I am proposing. Right. Which to be honest with you, it's not even necessarily high. It's just normal. It's just normal. You're just having some. Just getting fiber. Right. Okay, so these are the two proposals. Yeah. When you enter into ketosis, your body starts to produce what are called ketone bodies. And the two main ones are beta hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate. Now, I want the listeners, forgive me for being nerdy, but I just want you to log in your brain these names, hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate. Okay. Now let's talk about the opposite side. Fiber. When you consume fiber and resistant starches, your gut microbes will release acetate, butyrate, and the third one, propionate. Those are the short chain fatty acids. Your body was like, again, this is where we come back to the whole spiritual conversation magically developed. Where when you have a food source, you have the ability to produce short chain fatty acids from that food source, the fiber. Right. So you get the acetate, the butyrate, the propionate. But when you are not. When you don't have a food source, because these things are so important to us and our health, your body will flip into this ketogenic mode to release the acetoacetate and the beta hydroxybutyrate. But they are not the same. It's important to understand they are not the same. They do work at the same receptors. The acetoacetate and the beta hydroxybutyrate is like the, like a messed up key. Like it's not fully entering the lock, but it's kind of entering the lock and it gives you a partial effect. Okay. So basically what we're saying is if you compare this to the western diet, which does not have fiber and is loaded with junk, if you move into ketosis, at least you get the C rate version.
- [42:36]
A
Whoa.
- [42:37]
C
Of the short chain fatty acids, at least you get the C rate version.
- [42:40]
B
Right. But surprise, surprise, like either skipping meals, fasting, or eating ultra processed food and junk. Neither of those things actually give you the most complete, like, nutrition panel. The only thing that can do that
- [42:55]
C
is food, real food. Right. And what if we move to a whole food diet and what we're not even talking about is. Has a specific label. So one of the things I talk about in chapter four is that I basically say, hey, look, there's evidence for a Mediterranean diet. There's evidence For a pescetarian, which is fish, flexitarian, vegetarian, vegan, and these are all plant based diets. And it doesn't matter what label you apply. What matters is the quality of the food that you eat. So when you eat a high quality diet which is made up of whole foods, you have the ability to mix and match these things and bring them together in whatever way makes you happy that you're actually gonna eat. Right? Because if I try to force something on you and it lasts for 30 days, then you bail on me. I have accomplished nothing.
- [43:42]
A
What I'm hearing is that most people are eating such junk that it's better for them just not to eat. Be in ketosis, have their body generate these fake or replica keys and they will feel better. But that is ultimately not the way to go about it. The way to go about it is to get the real keys from, from fiber that we're craving anyway, 100%.
- [44:07]
C
And this is also why like the fasting trend. And that's not. This is not to say I'm against the fasting trend, but this is part of why the fasting trend has helped people is like actually the avoidance of food that is basically shredding you from the inside. You're better off taking a break.
- [44:26]
A
Wow. So it's not that the fasting is actually helping you so much, it's that it's helping you avoid the things that are being destructive versus if you were getting whole foods, nutritional foods that were actually helping you thrive, then fasting wouldn't give you that benefit.
- [44:40]
C
Let's imagine for a moment that you run out to the fast food joint and you get a burger, fries and, and Diet Coke. Okay. And embedded in there is going to be the refined carbohydrate flour that's in the bunch of. Who knows what else is in there. The burger patty isn't actually just meat, it's just other weird stuff that they've managed to put in there these days in the fast food joints. Fillers, fillers and things like this. But there, but there is meat in there and it's dominantly represented by saturated fat. That's the main fat that you're going to find coming from the meat, right? And then the french fries, it's a fried food. So like it's been cooked at high heat. And when it gets cooked at high heat, it basically releases these oxidized products that are really bad for us. They're actually harmful. And then there's that Diet Coke which you can feel however you want to feel about diet Coke. But the problem is it's like a. It's a confluence of chemicals, right?
- [45:37]
B
That it's hijacking your system, that are
- [45:40]
C
hijacking your system, that are making you crave, more, that have negative consequences on your gut microbiome. So. And it's not just the artificial sweeteners. Like Diet Coke is always brown. Why is it always the same color? I've never seen it any other color other than when Pepsi Clear. Remember Pepsi Clear back in the day,
- [45:56]
A
no one liked that.
- [45:57]
C
No one liked it, right? So they have to add back the color. But that's an artificial chemical that has its own health risks. Here's what's happening on your insides. Your blood sugar spikes, right? Mostly in response to the refined carbohydrates. And that blood sugar spike when it goes too high starts to actually erode your gut barrier. So your gut barrier, leaky gut, is getting worse, which is creating inflammation. Simultaneously, your triglycerides, which is a measure of fat in your blood, this starts to go on the rise. Now, that's a combination of the carb of the refined carbohydrates from the bun and also the saturated fat from the burger, right? So. Or like the. The starch, the junk starch from the fries, right? So your triglycerides start to start to rise. But we actually have some research that was done at Zoe, where I'm the US Medical director, where they showed that the triglyceride rise takes about six hours after the meal to peak, and then it starts to come down. But the important point was that actually that was associated with inflammation. So the measure of a person's triglycerides, not fasting, but after a meal, was associated with inflammation. By the way, you want to know what else drives your triglycerides up? Hard alcohol. So you have this meal, and what I'm saying to you is for at least the next six hours, your gut is going into an inflammatory state, right? And then it's going to take some time after that peak, six to eight hours, it's going to start to get back on track. If you have another meal during that time, you just leveled it up, right? But if you were to take a break and you're like, okay, I'm going to take like a 12 hours, okay? It starts to dial down around 8 or 10 hours. And then you're giving your gut a little bit of time to actually enter into repair mode. So it can kind of resettle itself, get reorganized, right? So this is where the idea of fasting time restricted, eating can be beneficial. We know that within the gut microbiome, about 12 hours is when you start to see the benefits and when you get to like, I'm a, I'm an advocate for doing this overnight. So when you get to 14 hours. We actually had a study that we did at Zoe with 40,000 people who were doing a 14 hour fast. And basically what they told us is they felt better, they had more energy, they were less hungry. First two days they were actually more hungry and then that actually faded. They were less hungry and they had less bloating because I think their gut is healing.
- [48:39]
B
Yeah. We should also mention, and we talked about this when we've spoken about it in other episodes. Fasting is not for everyone. If you have, you know, if you have anorexic or restrictive or bulimic tendencies, obviously if you have any disordered eating, that can be a real kind of contraindication. And in addition, if you have an autoimmune condition, you have different needs. If you're in adrenal kind of burnout, if you're having of adrenal problems in particular, this can actually be very not helpful and can actually feel very different. So I just wanted to give that also a quick mention.
- [49:12]
C
So I think it's the, and I think to that it's part of this is being aware of what are the, what are the scenarios where you wouldn't want to do this and also being intuitive about your process. Right. So like, how do you feel? I think that like, this is an important question for people.
- [49:26]
A
I believed in the science of spirituality. I believed in the aspects of feeling a connection to something greater than ourselves. What I wasn't expecting is how I am not showing up consistently where I'm like, I'll eat this lunch at this time and I'll eat dinner here. And I'm in this podcast and to think about almost us as toddlers, like if you have a toddler and you've ever hung out with a toddler, if lunch isn't at the same time every day, they are not pleased 100%.
- [49:56]
C
Yeah. Well, and just think about like how much daylight savings time wrecks us, right? How one hour shifts can like impact us in such a power, powerful way, even as adults. So yeah, I think that it's important to realize that about half of our genes are being clicked on and off during the course of a 24 hour time frame. Right. At specific time points. And then in terms of your microbiome, there are over 50% of your microbes that are rising and Falling at specific times a day to basically serve the needs of your body because they're that embedded into your physiology and they want you to be successful. So during the day, the microbes are designed basically for protein metabolism, because that's what we need, because we're, we're physically active, we're moving around, we're doing stuff right? So we need basically microbes to help us ensure adequate stores of protein. But at night, they flip into rest and recovery mode, and they help us to repair and restore our gut barrier overnight. And our immune. It turns out that our immune system is nocturnal. And I can prove it because there are bajillion people listening to me at home right now who will realize, like, you get congested at night, you get that cough at night, you get more sore at night. You had that big workout, you weren't sore when you went to bed, but you woke up sore. Right? These are all manifestations of an active immune system while you're sleeping. And the reason why you want your immune system active at night is because actually it's preparing, it's serving you, it's doing its job. But what you don't want is your immune system active inappropriately during the day, because that makes you tired, it makes you fatigued, it zaps your energy.
- [51:42]
B
We got to touch a little bit on some of the circadian rhythm stuff, but that's a really, really fantastic chapter, the Rhythm of Time. And it's something that we've been talking about with sleep hygiene. But I love how you kind of connect everything in terms of sort of how we're designed to be planned throughout the day. So people will just have to buy the book to get more on that. Thank you so much for being here. We're so grateful to consider you a friend of ours and a friend of the podcast. Tell people where they can find out all about you and more about the book as well.
- [52:12]
C
Sure. So the book is called Plant Powered plus, it's available everywhere that books are sold. I, of course, am a huge advocate for buying from your local bookstore because those tend to be, you know, mom and pop shops that five years from now, 10 years from now, I'm pretty sure on a Saturday with a cup of coffee, you'd like to sort of browse. And if we only buy from our online purveyors, they're not going to be open for much longer, so we have to support them. And then if you want, my home base is the healthmd.com and if you come to my website, you can sign up for My email newsletter that's completely free. I have all kinds of offerings and things that I'm more than excited to share with you. Many of them are free. Some of them are not. I have courses, I have my clinic, I have my private community. So there's, there's a lot for us to potentially do together. And I basically, I'm here to get people thriving. I want to improve your health. If you want to start with the book, it's a great place to start. And if you want to continue the conversation, I'm here for it.
- [53:08]
B
Awesome. And pronounce your name, your last name one more time for us.
- [53:10]
C
Yes. Well, so we have Americanized this Mayim.
- [53:13]
B
Wow.
- [53:14]
C
So, yeah, so we say Bolshowitz. We read it like a word, Bolshewitz. But if we were to go to Eastern Europe, it rolls off the tongue and they say bolshevitz.
- [53:22]
B
Thank you, Dr. V. Really, really appreciate you.
- [53:25]
C
Thank you.
- [53:28]
B
I know that episode might have seemed a little bit all over the place, but that's because Dr. B can speak to so many different aspects of health. He's not just a gastroenterologist. He's had to learn everything about nutrition, about epidemiology, about pharmaceuticals. Like, he knows so many different aspects of nutrition. It's really very exciting also to have him talking about mental health, about stress, about the sympathetic nervous system, and about religion.
- [53:58]
A
There really was so much more. Maybe we will pick some of the circadian rhythm stuff up over on Substack. Check us out Mind Bialik's breakdown on Substack. And you know, one of the reasons we started the Substack community was to connect like minded people who wanted to feel and create a space on the Internet that was curious, open minded and supportive. I'm really touched and saddened by the amount of loneliness there is in this world. And our substack community, while it is digital, is an attempt to make us feel a little bit more connected to one another. So if you're inspired by any of these episodes, come check it out.
- [54:38]
B
And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.
- [54:41]
A
It's Maya Bialik's breakdown.
- [54:43]
C
She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two now. She's going to break down, to break down. She's going to break it down.