Former CIA Spies on America’s Decline, The Potential of WW3, & What’s Really Happening Behind the Scenes in the US Government

Summary

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Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown

Episode: Former CIA Spies on America’s Decline, the Potential of WW3, & What’s Really Happening Behind the Scenes in the US Government

Date: September 16, 2025
Guests: Andrew & Jihee Bustamante, former CIA operatives, authors of Shadow Cell and founders of Everyday Spy
Host: Mayim Bialik (A)
Co-Host: Jonathan Cohen (C)

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Mayim and Jonathan sit down with Andrew and Jihee Bustamante, a husband-wife team of former CIA officers, to discuss the stealthy decline of the United States, why the global power structure is shifting, the murky realities behind headlines like the Epstein files, and how institutional self-interest runs Washington. The conversation deftly weaves geopolitics, history, personal stories, and practical advice—offering both diagnostics on America's wounds and tools for personal resilience. The tone is candid, unnervingly honest, and at times darkly humorous, providing unparalleled insight from true insiders.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Life as CIA Operatives and Partners

[06:56–13:35]

• Andrew and Jihee share the unique perspective of being both CIA operatives and spouses, delving into how trust and deception work in their marriage and the challenges of transitioning to "normal" life.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “Being married to a fellow operator… I don’t know how people do it any other way.” (B, 07:25)
  • “Are there moments where you realize you’re married to someone trained to lie, cheat, steal, and kill?” (A, 07:56)
  • On lying: “There’s bold lies, white lies, lies of omission, and lies of misdirection. Jihee will do three of those before 9am without even batting an eye.” (B, 10:30)
• Discussion of CIA skillsets, teachability, and the surprising roles for creatives and even psychics in intelligence.

2. The Transition from the Secret World to Civilian Life

[18:19–22:47]

• The difficulty and loneliness of living a secret life, even from one's family. Jihee describes the challenge of outing herself as an ex-CIA officer and how both miss the adrenaline and camaraderie of the Agency.
• “No one cares about you until they find out you were CIA. Then you’re just a conduit for that curiosity.” (B, 22:06)

3. Manipulation & Theatricality in US Government

[25:16–28:10]

• The group explores just how much of what the public sees is theater—highlighted by examples of public antagonism on Capitol Hill that quickly evaporates when cameras are off.
• Quote: “It’s all theater in the US Government… At the end of the day, they all want the same thing.” (B, 27:29)
• Both parties are “equally culpable” in misleading the public and are fundamentally motivated by self-preservation, not public service.

4. The Epstein Files: What Is and Isn’t Revealed

[28:10–43:41]

• Discussion of how self-interest prevents government transparency on damaging cases like Epstein.
• Quotes:
  • “There is no draining the swamp… You can’t change it from the inside.” (D, 28:23)
  • On information suppression: “Everybody in government works in their own self-interest… That’s why nothing’s going to happen [with Epstein].” (D, 29:14)
• The duo stresses that the government acts to preserve itself, not the people—a principle highlighted in national emergencies.

5. American Power Decline: Tracing the Arc

[39:24–48:48]

• Andrew traces the erosion of US global influence from the Bush years’ focus on terrorism to today’s destabilization, arguing attention diverted to endless war let rivals like China surge.
• The group addresses the growing economic divide, collapse of the middle class, and how both parties are stuck in dysfunction.
• Quote: “You can count on certain inevitable truths, and one of those is that human beings will pursue their own self interests.” (B, 48:12)

6. Precedents and the Strongman Presidency

[32:04–34:37; 49:13–52:13]

• How Obama’s use of executive power set new norms, seized on by Trump, and created a pattern making it nearly impossible to hold presidents accountable.
• Quote: “It took eight years [for Obama] to use these privileges. And now we're going to be feeling the ramifications for many decades…” (B, 33:32)
• The expansion of presidential power at the cost of Congressional weakness aligns with the histories of Latin American countries like Venezuela.

7. Parallels to Venezuela & Signs of Societal Decay

[56:20–63:24]

• Jihee, with Venezuelan family roots, draws sharp parallels between today’s US and pre-crisis Venezuela: widening inequality, rising economic instability, brain drain, and creeping authoritarianism.
• Quotes:
  • “What we are experiencing is almost exactly what happened in Venezuela… It’s slow, viral… not violent, but insidious.” (B, 56:20)
  • “[Venezuela] was a beautiful, wealthy country, then came Hugo Chavez… voted in on promises, and everything tanks.” (D, 61:21)
• Warning: Societal collapse is rarely abrupt; it’s a “slow burn” that people only see in hindsight.

8. Personal Agency and How (Not) to Effect Change

[53:12–55:48; 67:37–68:56]

• On activism: “You have to play the game. You can’t go out there and hold a sign and hope… You have to invest time and money and have a good strategy.” (D, 53:20)
• Two ways to effect change: fight the system strategically from within, or “do what’s best for you”—increasingly, that means securing second citizenships and options abroad.
• Voting for third parties, even if they don’t win, can begin to shift the narrative.

9. What Global Power Shift Means for Americans

[58:27–65:44]

• The potential for equality between US and China is described as “the peak of conflict,” not a panacea.
• The dollar’s erosion, attacks on education, and the brain drain all signal long-term decline.
• “If your grandkids want a career, they might need to learn Chinese—not by choice… but because they’ll have to.” (B, 58:50)
• The US penchant for ideological conditionality in foreign relations is making it less competitive globally, as rivals use transactional, pragmatic diplomacy.

10. Safe Havens and “Geo-Arbitrage” for the Future

[70:40–74:45]

• Alternatives to staying in the US are discussed with pragmatic realism—don’t flee to a rising competitor like China, but find temporary, stable havens (Portugal, Switzerland, Croatia) as the global landscape shifts.
• “It’s not about finding what’s better now, it’s about getting more options in an uncertain future…” (B, 72:21)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Trust and Deception in Marriage:

• “Jihee will do three of those [types of lies] all before 9am without even batting an eye. The only thing she kind of stays away from is bold lying.” (B, 10:30)

US Political System:

• “It’s all theater in the US Government. They all want the same thing… reelection, another term in office.” (B, 27:29)
• “The government is not there to serve the people. It’s there to serve the government.” (B, 29:39)

Epstein Scandal:

• “There is no draining the swamp. You can’t do it… and the American public is [hopefully] waking up to the fact.” (D, 28:23)
• “Everybody in government works in their own self interest.” (D, 29:14)

Global Power Shift:

• “The return on investment [for US wars] is pretty low… not that much was accomplished.” (C, 40:37)
• “Equality is the peak of conflict. There’s a promise out there that equality will make everyone happy, but equality just makes everyone hungrier to get a little bit ahead.” (B, 57:52)

Parallel to Venezuela:

• “It was a slow burn… the gap grew between wealthy and poor. Chavez was brought in, but then everything tanks, huge brain drain, massive inflation.” (D, 61:21–62:37)

Advice for Those Worried About the US:

• “If you want to do what’s best for you, and that’s leaving—do it. You’re actively writing the future for your kids.” (B, 54:19)
• “Don’t leave the United States to go to China… find a more stable place for the next 10–15 years. Gain a second citizenship—to give your children options.” (B, 72:09)
• “Every wealthy person I know is already diversifying their lives, not just their portfolios.” (B, 54:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:56–13:35] – Inside the life of a CIA couple; trust & deception
• [22:06] – The isolation of post-spy life
• [27:29] – “It’s all theater”—The nature of government
• [28:23] – “No draining the swamp”—Epstein and systemic rot
• [33:32] – How executive power changed under Obama/Trump
• [39:24–48:48] – The arc of US decline and rise of China
• [53:20] – “Play the game”; how real change happens (or doesn’t)
• [56:20–62:37] – The Venezuela parallel: from prosperity to collapse
• [58:50] – Learning Chinese: America’s possible future
• [67:37] – Voting third party; shifting the electoral dynamic
• [70:40–74:45] – Where to go if you leave: geo-arbitrage and options abroad

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Conclusion

This episode stitches together geopolitics, personal experience, and actionable advice. The Bustamantes challenge listeners to recognize the often-invisible tipping points their nation is approaching, to take personal agency seriously, and to be strategic—whether that means fighting for systemic change or diversifying options for themselves and their families. The message is sobering: America's direction isn’t inevitable, but denying hard truths ensures history repeats itself.

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For future exclusive content and more on this conversation, subscribe to Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown on Substack.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

You need a functional and thriving middle class for economy and a society to be safe.

[B]

What you're seeing is a decrease in value of the US dollar. You're seeing the decline in international influence of US politicians and US power. What does that mean about your 401k, your bank account, your small business?

[A]

Andrew Bustamante, he's a very, very famous for former CIA operative. You are married to, in love with and in partnership with someone who has been trained to lie, cheat, steal and kill.

[D]

I think with me, he felt like he could be honest.

[C]

Weakness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Weakness.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And she jumped on it.

[D]

The Epstein issue shows the American public that there is no draining the swamp.

[B]

Until you've been on Capitol Hill and actually watched these assholes yell at each other on camera and then have lunch together and give fist bumps. You don't get it.

[D]

You can't go out there and hold a sign and hope that everybody sees that you're right. You have to play the game.

[B]

Everything changes as the United States declines from its role of global superpower. You're seeing Vladimir Putin. You're seeing Xi Jinping. You're seeing people stand up in ways they've never stood up before. That is a bad thing for the United States.

[C]

Are we moving into a third world war?

[A]

Hi, I'm. I am Bialik.

[C]

And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[A]

And welcome to our breakdown. Have you ever thought about what it takes to work for the CIA?

[C]

All the time I think about it. I also think about World War Three, the decline of the U.S. whether or not we're in a hot war, and if I should be thinking about getting another passport.

[A]

I also wonder about what kind of personality features might lend someone to be more or less trustworthy and to be open to understanding different perspectives on the level that you might make life decisions based on those different perspectives.

[C]

This episode is such an interesting mix because we talk about systemic issues that are happening, the future of democracy, how the US May be mirroring Venezuela in terms of its imminent collapse, and if so, why that might be. We also touch on Epstein and what's really going on in these files as well. We balance it with some really introspective work on how to protect your energy, what to say no, and how to learn to say no in order to make sure that you're living your life not being subject to what other people expect of you.

[A]

Who could possibly address all of these things? Well, you may not be surprised. Andrew Bustamante and Jihy Bustamante, authors of Shadow Cell, An Insider Account of America's New Spy War and the founders of Everyday Spy. So Andrew Bustamante we had on the podcast a year or so ago and he's a very, very famous former CIA operative. His wife, also a former CIA operative. They run Everyday Spy together and they are a fascinating couple. She comes from a very peace loving Buddhist home and ended up entering the CIA. They met amidst her anxiety diagnosis. She used to vomit every time she saw him. We're going to hear all about that, how they ended up working together in the CIA, what they learned both as a couple and individually about who to trust and how, what the news is telling us about what is true in society. And it's a really, really fun episode where we get to talk to two different sides of a couple that has been immersed for decades in the deepest recesses of government secrets.

[C]

It's fascinating. Mayim describes it as a really fun episode. I describe it as a breakdown and an evaluation of how America got to this point. Looking at the Bush administration, the power dynamic of the Obama administration and how that led to Trump, as well as why you can't put a former president in jail and what that says about global power structure of the US we're.

[A]

Going to be sitting in different seats today because we have two guests in the podcast studio. It's been a minute since we've had two people in the studio, but we're very excited to welcome Andrew and Jihi Bustamante to the breakdown. Break it down. Welcome Andrew and Jihy Bustamante to the Breakdown.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

We're very excited to have you here in person. We spoke to you just this half of you last November. You have a book called Shadow Cell that you wrote together, an insider account of America's new spy war. And what's really cool about this book is you literally write it together. And when I heard about that, I was like, how are they gonna combine their voice? Easily solved because it ping pongs between each of your voices and each of your experiences, which is especially cool because so many aspects of your lives as a couple involved. Things that you had to encounter as a couple, but also things that you had to deal with separately and reflect upon within the couple. So I have to say, and we'll get into more of the details of the cell and how this sort of in many ways, tells the story of how wars are being waged. But I also just sort of wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about what it was sort of like presenting as we both used to be in this completely other world. And this is a story of not just being a spy, but being partnership in these kinds of activities. So I'll ask you to go first. Yeah. Just a little bit of perspective about sort of not just what it was like writing the book, but what this life has been like.

[D]

So I think it's been wonderful having a partner, because I think it would be very lonely otherwise. So even writing the book, we have our different perspectives and our different experiences. And I think being able to share that with somebody that I trust wholly is a powerful experience for me.

[B]

And Jihee doesn't trust anybody wholly. Don't think for a second she trusts me completely.

[A]

Oh, I don't think she does.

[D]

Like 98%.

[A]

I know enough about you. I can't trust you.

[B]

But I will say that being married to a fellow operator, I can't imagine not being married to an operator. Now that we've done it, I don't know how people do it any other way, because the only thing that stands between us is legal obligation of need to know. That's it. So anything that doesn't have that very clear need to know barrier, I get to share. And if it does have that need to know barrier, I can say I legally can't tell you that and vice versa. Right.

[A]

But I want to know if I want to know. Just like on a personal level, are there moments where you realize that you are married to, in love with, and in partnership with someone who has been trained to lie, cheat, steal, and kill, and you have to decide, like, do I know what it feels like to trust that person?

[B]

So I'm going to answer first because jihee usually lies first. I think it weighs on me all the time when I talk to you. It weighs on me all the time that you are a trained, like, deceptive, undermining saboteur. Like, I know it. I know it. So it's hard because that's what all.

[C]

Men think about their partners.

[D]

Especially after he met my mom.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. And then I realized there's, like a. There's like, a genetic element of predisposition. So it's. It's powerful. But I think about it constantly. I do. I will admit, though, I don't think you look at me that way. I think you look at me as.

[C]

She'S like, I can outspy you any.

[B]

Day of the week.

[C]

You, sir, hold nothing on me.

[D]

That is absolutely true. Yeah. So I grew up in a family where I used to argue with Andy all the time because lying is a big deal for me. My ex cheated on me, and it was a big deal, but he was like, you lie by omission. And I was like, that's not really lying. That's how all the women in my family do it. He was like, oh, no. Lying by omission is still a lie. So he definitely has reasons to question. Question me further, which is fine, and I respect that. But, yeah, I trust Andy. I think he's easier to read. I think he.

[B]

To you.

[D]

To me.

[C]

Is it because you've been out of the game a little bit? Was he harder to read while he was practicing?

[D]

No, I think. And I think with me, he felt like he could be honest. So. Weakness.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Weakness, yes.

[D]

And she jumped on it, and I jumped on it. I was like, oh. I was like, I can read this guy. This is great. And after my experience with my ex, where I actually did, like, I did a full targeting package on him even before I had ever joined the CIA. Like, I was like, okay, so I have the skills to weed out a lie if I really need to.

[B]

CIA teaches us there's four categories of lies. So that's why there's a. There's an element of academia here. Right.

[A]

She does the lady lying.

[B]

But they teach us that there's bold lies, white lies, lies of omission, and lies of misdirection. So Jihee will do three of those lies, all before 9am without even batting an eye. The only thing she kind of stays away from is bold lying. Yeah.

[C]

Which then really isn't Lying at all. It's just giving partial truth.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's funny because I. Jonathan is a creative, and a lot of times he will see or imagine things or create things that don't yet exist, but it gives him a different perception of reality, as it were. And he'll say, well, that's what I wanted to be true. Like, I said what I wanted to be true. And I was like, but that's not true. It's not the same as true. You would not be a good CIA operative, though.

[B]

There are places where you would probably fit in very well, though, just based off of what you just said.

[C]

Tell.

[A]

Tell me downtown Toronto.

[B]

So keep in mind that everybody who creates our alias docs, everybody who creates our alias identities, our cover legends, the people who actually go through the process of. Of filling in a backstory, what we call backstopping, all of those people are largely creatives. Yeah, they're creatives who CIA can basically empower with the legal permission to transform reality. Actually take down one website and put up a different website. Change your whole degree, change your educational background, transform your face and your name on your high school yearbook if they wanted to.

[C]

There's a whole avenue for creatives that they do not know is possible. We found out that the CIA was using psychics to do remote viewing. Psychics didn't know that there was an outlet for them. And now people going through creative degrees are like, wait a second. I don't need to work for the movie studios.

[A]

People are saying, AI is going to take over jobs. We're creating them. Creative people. You can't make a TV show, but you can write a backstop backstory for a CIA operative. And if you're a psychic and you're like, what am I going to do with my life? Go work for the CIA.

[B]

And if there's. If there's. Anything I won't be able to replace, it's remote viewers. That's going to be a hard thing for AI to do.

[C]

Although we heard that maybe they're not using them as much now. In the age of AI, because so much information is being gathered by AI, what is the story with how remote viewers are currently being used?

[B]

So there's a lot about the metaphysical sciences, if that's the right word.

[A]

Psi phenomenon.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot about that that that CIA outwardly rejects, and there's an element of it that we know they have to maintain, but they can't admit that they maintain it. So I understand that sensitivity. I was never privy to any of the activities that CIA is actively doing. I was able to investigate some of the activities that they were alleged to have done and there is a lot of really powerful evidence behind things like remote viewing that is kind of scary.

[C]

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[A]

So we had Angela Ford on, who, you know, she started as just like, I'm a government worker, like, just like sweet little lady with like funky glasses. And she literally was recruited and they were like, oh, if you don't know how to do this, we'll train you. We're going to. And I was like, what? And then we said to her, well, did you have ability? She's like, oh yeah, I used to leave my body all the time as a child and soar into the trees. I was like, of course you did. Right, that makes sense. But what she said was that all they needed was someone. And we talked about this in our first episode. All they needed was someone kind of susceptible and pliable enough to be able to have information kind of given to them and be given directions. You know, I would not be good for that because I'd be like, why? What's happening? Tell me more. No, that's not how it works. She said they would just teach this skill. But I think it's really interesting that you mentioned that it, it is kind of separate from what many people are like, oh, they're feeling into the ether and the energy and this. And to me it's almost like more proof that there is a scientific, scientific basis for it not just because, like, oh, if the CIA is doing it, that's fine. But the notion that these are skills, just like you've talked about, and just like the book talks about, there's a variety of skills that many people don't have. And there's a reason that, like, my dad was a teacher and you're a CIA operative and we make a podcast. Right.

[B]

So I would love for you to actually weigh in on this, because we talk about this in the book a little bit, but Jihy didn't want to be part of CIA, and then she ended up as part of CIA against her every effort not to. And then you excelled in that freaking place. So I think this ties in exactly to what Mayim is saying. Like, there's an element of just teachability, skills, and the learning index that CIA teaches us.

[D]

Yeah. And one of the things I love about CIA is they mold everybody who comes in, which I personally love, because I felt like I had potential, but I didn't quite know how to hone it. And so the hiring process is so extensive, but they are looking for something very specific when they hire. And one of those is teachability.

[A]

And.

[D]

And so they can give you all of these different skills. I mean, whether it's to be a, you know, disguise, you know, person or a targeter or, you know, anything. And the other thing I like that you guys were just touching on is they have this enormous budget, so they have the ability to experiment with all of these things and see does it scientifically prove out, can it actually help us, Which I love, personally.

[C]

You're making this sound very appealing.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, maybe I should join. It's not too late.

[C]

I want to talk about some. Some of the stuff that's happening in the world that you two have a very unique perspective on because you are able to or you have experience seeing what most people don't. Right. How information travels across the world, how governments are interacting, how geopolitics plays out behind the scenes. Before we get into that, sort of just wrapping the couple conversation, I'm always fascinated about how does it feel trying to be normal people after living such intense lives? It's like, you know, the gambling addict who's, like, primed for a high level of adrenaline and scanning all the time, trying to now be a suburban human being. What is that? Like?

[D]

I miss the secrets, I will admit that. For sure. I read the news, and I'm like, oh, there's more behind this. I know it. And I know somebody who works in that office. And I wish I could call them and ask. So for sure. You know, I miss the people I worked with like immensely. But I also miss access to the secrets. I also find it strange when I tell people like, oh yeah, I used to work for this, you know, because I never know.

[C]

Do you don't have a cover story of what you normally did. I guess now you're a public person, you kids.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

Yeah. But the first time, for example, I told my sister and her boyfriend who were very. Yeah.

[B]

I don't even know what the word. Creative. Yeah, no.

[D]

Yeah. So I wasn't quite sure how that was going to go because what did.

[C]

They think you used to do?

[D]

They? I had another government agency as a cover.

[C]

Got it.

[A]

Wait, so even your family doesn't get to know that you work for the CIA?

[D]

My parents knew. I chose to tell them and then I had to report that.

[A]

Peace loving Buddhist parents.

[D]

Yes, well, because when I first joined, all I had watched were the, you know, like the James Bond and Jason Bourne movies. And I was like, if I disappear, I need somebody to know to come look for me.

[B]

She didn't trust them.

[D]

I didn't trust.

[B]

Imagine that she didn't trust CIA. So I told her own backup plan, 100%.

[C]

Why would you.

[B]

Now I feel like the idiot. I was like, I can trust them. I told nobody. I left that whole life behind. I flushed my old life down the toilet and I like waved as it went away. Totally different.

[D]

Yeah, well, yeah, so for me it was it the initial telling, the initial coming out was always a little bit scary for me because I don't know if somebody's going to have like a very violent reaction or if somebody's going to be like, oh yeah, that's really cool. You know, it's just iffy. You never know these days.

[B]

Yeah, it's lonely. That's, that's my only description for it is it's lonely because nobody cares about you until they find out about CIA. And then they care about CIA, either pro or against or curious. And then you're just a conduit for CIA. So it's not like we ever exist as people, which is, it's okay, but it's, it's lonely. It makes it so that you don't, you want to avoid conversations. You don't really want to have a lot of conversations. It's actually easier to be a public figure in front of a camera or with other public figures because at least you guys know what it's like to get approached at the airport or have Someone who doesn't know you until they recognize you, and then all they want to know is about your old life, not your current life.

[A]

I was watching the documentary series about the hunt for bin Laden, and it was very interesting because Obviously, I remember 9, 11. I was in grad school at that time anyway. I mean, I remember every moment of that day. I remember, you know, being glued to the news and just all the information that was like, I was so tuned into it, but I had forgotten a lot of the details of the actual hunt because it took the time that it did. So it was kind of interesting watching with, you know, my kid who's now trying to learn about this aspect of history that's, you know, a distant memory, right? So when we were watching it, you know, some of the operatives, like their own wives, did not know what they were doing. And even, I mean, that shocked me. One of them, he was talking about, like, his daughter had, like, a concert or something, and he was like, I won't be there by. Because they were like, literally the helicopter was landing, and he was, you know, in. In DC Monitoring it, but his own wife was like, you never show up for our child. You know? And then finally, once they caught bin Laden, he was like, turn on the news, honey. Like, this is, you know, and that shocked me, like, the level of subterfuge, right, that you kind of have to live in. I mean, I'm assuming that's not part of the attraction, you know, but it is sort of part of what happens, and it is what people are fascinated about.

[B]

So I would say that what attracts people to CIA and that lifestyle is youthful. That's why they recruit so heavily. What's the average age? 20. The average age is 32.

[D]

I think it's like mid 20s to very early 30s. Like, think mid 20s is.

[B]

And that's because the vast majority of hiring is under 30. And then there's a few outliers that are late 40s, early 50s, usually because of their extensive knowledge or skill set in one particular thing. Finance, information management, something like that.

[A]

Ability to go undercover as an older person.

[B]

There you go.

[D]

I think that would play into it more, but I don't think it does.

[B]

But, yeah, there's. There's certain things that. That make the job predisposed to youthful, younger people.

[D]

Right?

[B]

So then you don't start. You don't have mature thoughts, right? Until you're, what, 34, 35. And then you start thinking about, do I want to get married? Do I want to have kids? Do I want to Have a savings account? Do I want to have a retirement account? Right. Everything before then, you're totally blind to those things. And that's kind of what is in CIA. Sweet spot.

[C]

You mentioned you miss the secrets.

[D]

I do.

[C]

So you read the news.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And what is happening? I mean, this is too broad a question, but, like, what is happening behind the scenes that people don't realize? How much of the news is just total propaganda and just missing 50%, 90% of the detail?

[B]

So I want to pin that on you because that's the right question, and I want you to answer it honestly, because he's asking the right question. How much of the news is wrong?

[D]

Well, I mean, I think if it's a proper news source and they are reporting facts, right, like observable facts, then they're getting those right. The problem is that so much of news media isn't reporting facts. It's so much opinion. And when you start getting into the opinion, so much of that is just. What's the word? Conjecture. Right. They're guessing. So there's a lot going on behind the scenes. Just like you were saying, there's a lot of backroom conversations that are happening that the media will never see. Right. What they see is what the governments want them to see. When the U.S. government or the government of France comes out and makes some kind of big, like, oh, we're doing this now. Who knows what's really happening behind the scenes? Something is happening behind the scenes, but we will never be privy to that until the next big announcement.

[B]

And I just want to chime in, because what Jihee said there is with the very professional journalistically sound news sources, what they report that's observable is factual. Well, we all know your journalistically sound news sources are increasingly shrinking. There's probably three that you can think of. Right? Like Reuters. I would say Reuters is journalistically sound. The Economist is journalistically sound.

[C]

Do you think that one political party or another is better at providing a broader clarity as to what's happening? Or they're equally culpable in their facade that they're presenting to the world.

[D]

Equally culpable? Yeah. I do not think the political parties until.

[B]

Until you've been on Capitol Hill and actually watch these yell at each other on camera and then have lunch together and give fist bumps. You don't get it. It's so twisted.

[C]

So it's all theater.

[B]

It's all theater. It's all theater in the US Government. It's all theater because at the end of the day, they all want the same thing. They all want a reelection, another term in office. They all want to make sure that they don't have to go find a real job. They all want to make sure that they can vote and control their own salaries. That's really what they want. And then they want to make sure that any newcomers that come in understand this is how business is done. And then the American people, we give them permission to do that because we only show up at like 30% to vote anyways. And they know that. So they know exactly who the one out of three people is that's going to show up to vote and exactly what to say to get that constituent to come out every midterm. And that's what they do when the time comes to do it.

[C]

So I'm going to ask a difficult question that a lot of people are talking about and is probably not fair to put the weight of this question on you. What's happening with Epstein? What is it that people don't actually know?

[D]

I think the Epstein issue is so interesting because I really think it just shows the American public that the government is the government. No matter who's in there, there is no draining the swamp. You can't do it. Just like Andy was saying, the government functions the way it functions. Anybody new who comes in is told that this is the way it is and you can't change it from the inside. And so it's nice for me to see the American public slowly, hopefully waking up to the fact that we can't change it from the inside. There's nobody who's going to enter the government who can change how it functions. Because once they're in there, they're in power.

[C]

If you have the head of the FBI, the deputy director of the FBI, who potentially have control of what information gets out, who is controlling the information if not them?

[D]

Everybody in the government works in their own self interest. So if it's not in their own interest to release the information, which is probably not, and there's also laws and regulations that probably hinder some of the things that they've been asked to do. But for the most part, they're just working in their own self interest. And that's why nothing's going to happen. Because it doesn't help them or the current administration to release that information.

[B]

Correct. The self interest piece is the piece to understand. Because what most Americans get wrong is we believe that the government is there to serve the people. Maybe it was written somewhere, but it's not. The government is not there to serve the People. The government is there to serve the government. Right? In the event of a nuclear war, as long as the government of the United States exists, then the United States exists, even if all the people are lost.

[A]

I've seen that episode of succession. Whoever's in the safe room is all who they care about.

[B]

And it's real. It's real because the government is what defines the national identity.

[A]

I don't want this to be a partisan statement, but I think before the first Trump presidency, things felt a little bit different. For sure, they felt a little bit different in terms of news, press, media, just even the conversations about them. You know, I'm not like, putting this on Trump, but something definitely has shifted in that it feels like, you know, if you look at kind of political perspectives as a bell curve, it feels like news is now operating from these two tail ends, you know, and we have kind of like the most extreme on the left, and we have the most extreme on the right, which sound very similar because it's all a circle, right? And it feels like that notion of kind of a middle has sort of fallen out. And, you know, it's paralleled by sort of like the loss of the middle class that we talk about, you know, this kind of like stratification, you know, based on class and things like that. But I think that there's still, you know, for the bleeding heart liberals among us there, there's still, like, I'm just gonna say this, like, someone like Bernie Sanders, this, like, grouchy, crotchety, you know, he's pretty consistent, right? And kind of seems like that renegade that, you know, many of us thought the left could be. So many people in the Obama era, right, were like, there's a new wave of hope and we're gonna all make nice, you know, And I think of people like aoc, who I think has. Is challenged by exactly what you're talking about, because she came in, you know, kind of like, oh, we got like a Bernie vibe. But then, like, it starts teetering, and then it's like, oh, is she more right? Meaning, like, right wing people now are. It's like everybody's picking on everybody. Is that just sort of the inevitability of this system? Like, is Bernie Sanders the only holdout who seems to be, like, riding his ship all the way into the sunset?

[B]

Well, you've got a couple things. I think that's a great question, and I think Bernie's a great example, because what you have with Bernie Sanders is somebody who's so consistent, he's even fucked by his own party.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. And, and he is so true to his vision that he can be like sidetracked or derailed by the people he trusts because he trusts them to be of the same vision.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's just a great example of how things are falling apart. I agree with you that things seem radically different post Trump. What we learned at CIA is that we really started to see the change in the first two years of the Obama administration. Because in the first years of the Obama administration, Obama walked in and he was young enough and youthful enough that he saw the problem and he was like, I'm not going to play this game anymore. And he took the presidential powers that were given to him by all the congressmen that didn't want to have responsibility. Right. He took those presidential powers and he used them. He was the most lethal president in history, using covert action, which is his wing, his right as a president, as a chief executive, to use the most lethal president in history. He was the first one to use a record breaking amount of executive orders to push his agenda across. And when the, when the, when the Congress turned blue, he used that leverage to get across policy that mattered to him. Whether or not you like that he did that, that set a precedent. And then when Trump took office, he was like, well, this has already been done before, so I'm just gonna do the same shit that's been done before. And you can't say that it's my fault. So that's when we started to kind.

[A]

Of see now he's really the most lethal president in a different way.

[B]

In a different way. But we have this waffling now and it's gonna, it took eight years for Obama to basically exercise these rights. These privileges is the right word. He took eight years to use these privileges. And now we're going to be feeling the ramifications for many, many decades as presidents have to choose to reel themselves back in or the other two branches of government have to step up and do what they're supposed to do and be that check and balance.

[C]

It doesn't seem like we're ever going back.

[A]

Well, there's no check and balance now. I mean, you know, the Supreme Court used to be for again, like the bleeding heart liberals among us, like, well, at least, well, not anymore.

[B]

I agree with you. I completely agree with you that I don't think there's, I don't think there's any going back. And I think that the amount of time it's going to take for us to find some semblance of stability is such a long period of time that we have to be asking ourselves the question, do we? Do we want to be here in the middle of all that adolescence? Or do we want to go somewhere else and exist somewhere else while the American community why the American people Figure it out?

[C]

Mayim Bialik's breakdown is supported by Better.

[A]

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[C]

Mind B Alex breakdown is supported by Defender.

[A]

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[C]

Explore the Defender 110@land roverusa.com My MBIAlex breakdown is supported by Mud Water.

[A]

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[C]

After your purchase, they'll ask how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Let's get to the power structure of the world that has basically been uprooted since it was established after the Second World War. Because that's what you're talking about, right? You're talking about the change in global power dynamic after the Second World War. And for a long time there was American superiority, control. And what you're saying is in this infighting and instability that's now at risk.

[B]

Correct. And it's even worth going back. You can actually see how during the first Bush administration, the policy was set in motion for, for other countries to start taking advantage of what we weren't focused on. So we were focused on terrorism and war on drugs and global policing, also.

[A]

Known as the war on people of color.

[B]

But we were engaged in all this activity. That's where our money went. If you talk about it like an everyday person sitting at home looking at their budget. Exactly. Your, your paycheck came in and you chose to put this much money towards this global war on terror. Well, that's not what your neighbor's putting their money in. And that's not what China or Russia or North Korea or Iran were putting their money into. They were putting their money into other efforts. Right. And that's how we woke up at the end of the global war on terror in 2022 to a modernized China that controlled those, that controlled shipping and supply lanes, that controlled rare earth minerals, that controlled new loan agreements with third world countries, that had basically cloned telecommunications and had cloned the ability to make microchips. We wondered like, how did they do this so fast? They didn't do it fast. It took them 20 years. It's just that for those 20 years, we had our heads so deep in the Middle east that we weren't focused on anything else.

[C]

And the return on investment is pretty low. Like not that much was accomplished in terms of the progress made.

[A]

We made a lot of people hate us who might not have before we.

[B]

Broke international laws, which just like the Obama administration, before the Trump administration, created a new precedent. And that empowered countries like Israel, like Syria, like Turkey, like Russia, to just completely abandon the idea when it's convenient of international order and international justice. It's tough.

[C]

We're going to get to global Order in a second. But I want to circle back to the Epstein answer that you gave because implicit in that answer of it not serving their interests is an implication that there is damning evidence in those files otherwise it would serve them to release them.

[B]

And I'll, I'll add to this because I know Jihee, her face is twisted. You all. It's recorded her face twisted.

[C]

If you're only listening in audio, she just left the room and she is in her car. That's what her face said to us. She's like, do not put me on the spot. I will not answer this.

[D]

My face always betrays me.

[C]

So it could be a CIA spy.

[B]

The, the. You're correct. What jihy is implying is, is what she's implying intentionally. It doesn't serve their public, it doesn't serve the interest of the people in power.

[C]

But take that to the logical conclusion.

[B]

And then why, why doesn't it serve them now? The why is what we don't know. And that's where conspiracy lives. We don't know whether the reason the Epstein files aren't available to us is because he's got a picture hamming it up with some 14 year old girl with the President. We don't know if that's why.

[C]

Michael Wolf. Have you been following what Michael Wolf is putting out? That guy is supposedly the Epstein biographer and making claims that, you know, I have zero evidence to support. But he claims to be the expert and has seen Polaroids and has seen things that would be otherwise if true, completely damning.

[A]

Yeah, but these people are so slippery. Apparently you can be in a photo with a 14 year old girl and still be like we were just posing for a photo. I mean that's what happened with Prince Andrew.

[C]

Michael Wolf claims that these are topless 14 year olds or younger. So that's a little bit harder but doesn't imply guilt of, you know, and.

[D]

This is, this is the legal issue is that. And also, you know, feeds into, does it, does it feed their self interest? Because the prosecutors have a lot of discretion on who to prosecute. They do not prosecute unless they have enough evidence to bring it to trial and convict. So they have to look at the evidence. And even if they have damning evidence, number one, if they think they're going to bring a case in the future, they can't let that out. Number two, if they have evidence but there's not enough to bring the case out to charge somebody, they can't let that information out because how many, how many people of power are you going to bring down with circumstantial evidence. Right. Because that's what those people are going to say. That's circumstantial evidence. You don't have enough to prosecute me, and now you're defaming me.

[B]

And the thing to understand is America survived as long as the American political structure survives. All the politicians understand that. So what can't happen. And this is a big part of the reason why two years ago, I said Donald Trump was never going to go to jail. Never. Because you can't put a former president in jail. If you were to do that, that's sending a signal to the entire world, hey, America doesn't have their shit together. Hey, we're not as stable as you think we are.

[A]

I mean, I thought electing a person who is not a politician, who used to be a reality show star was already evidence of that.

[B]

And I think we're seeing that.

[A]

I clearly was wrong.

[C]

What about the convictions he has?

[B]

That's. I think these are all great points, right? He's got a conviction in New York City or in the state of New York. That clearly didn't sway the voters.

[A]

No, it made people more excited.

[B]

And, and what you're seeing, parallel to all the stuff that people are talking about with Donald Trump, what you're seeing is a decrease in, in value of the US Dollar. You're seeing the, the decline in international influence of US Politicians and US Power. You're seeing Vladimir Putin, you're seeing Xi Jinping, you're seeing the. The North Korean leadership. You're seeing Israeli leadership stand up and push back against their own commitments and promises to Donald Trump, to the American president. Right. You're seeing people stand up in ways they've never stood up before. And that's all indicative of the fact that people are losing confidence in the American power base. That's not a bad thing for the globe, but that is a bad thing for the United States, for the average American.

[C]

So you think his indictments in New York actually weaken the US Global power structure?

[B]

I think a big part of the reason that New York was willing to prosecute when so many other states weren't, was because New York believed in justice.

[C]

Over the power, over the global power structure.

[B]

Correct. And what we're seeing now, in hindsight, is just what Mayim said when you prosecuted the guy. We made him a victim. And then there was a rally cry behind him of people who. The silent majority, which is the majority that the politicians fear the most, is the silent majority, the people who don't really say what they really think. People who don't talk politics at the dinner table.

[A]

Well, they're also the people that I did not realize there were so many of them who would say this is a disgusting person with abhorrent, you know, tactics, treats women horribly, speaks poorly about the disabled and women and people of color. But, but. And then insert reason here. My bank account is real, like, meaning, you know, there's all these voters who are going to do whatever they're going to do despite all that. And for me, like, you know, I was like raised as like this hopeful, like grandchild of immigrants of like, we're the greatest country in the, with the melting pot. Just be a good person, you know, and for a lot of people that, yeah, that's not their driving force. I'm not saying they're not good people. In many cases, I do believe, I mean, I think we have to believe that or we're a completely divided nation. That many well meaning, good natured people were willing to gamble those certain aspects of things that they may believe in for a leader who again, fill in the blank of what you needed your president to do for you.

[B]

And let's not forget that the alternative, because we're America, we only gave ourselves.

[A]

One alternative, for Pete's sake.

[B]

Right. We were stuck between two bad choices.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I think all Americans understood that. And I think your point is right on the nose.

[A]

I don't like to call Kamala bad.

[B]

There are. Well, we are well meaning. Right? All people are well meaning.

[A]

No, the Democratic Party stepped in it and is still having trouble recovering. And that also has shocked me. Like there doesn't seem to be a spiral that the Democratic Party can come out of.

[B]

And that's hard. And in a, in a weird sort of parallel, the Republican Party is also in a spiral that they didn't create.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

And they also don't know how to get out. They're like in a whirlpool that, that's just sucking them in.

[A]

There's a lot of, there's a lot of complicit and I think really disgusting things going on. And you know, it's exactly evidence of what, what you said, what, you know, my cynical, liberal parents told me, you know, people will always, you know, like, they'll always cower to power, to money, to greed. You can't trust anybody. Right. I didn't want to believe that was true, but I, when I see certain, you know, Republican leadership really failing to step up, like, to me, that, that denigrates the Whole system.

[B]

There's a. I would also say that it reaches beyond just the two parties. It's. It's international. It doesn't matter what language you speak. It doesn't matter where you went to school, if you went to school. It doesn't matter what part of the country or what part of the city you're in anywhere in the world. You can count on certain inevitable truths, and one of those is that human beings will pursue their own self interests. We are still biologically wired to do what we believe will help us survive. We have not yet evolved cognitively to the place where we're willing to accept that we might actually thrive if we were to take different actions.

[C]

I 100% agree with you, and it is an evolution. I want to circle to your comment on. You can't put a US President or former US President in jail. And the Supreme Court has basically upheld that and supported that by saying anything done in the act of a presidential. In the presidential act can't be prosecuted. Doesn't that put us further and further towards dictatorship?

[B]

Absolutely. I would love for you to weigh in on this, because we talk about. This is what happens. Welcome to the Bustamante family dinner table.

[C]

This is just dinner.

[B]

The Bustamantes.

[C]

That's the episode.

[B]

This is what we talk about, you know, over our shared glass of scotch or whatever else is, you know, what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? What is the new precedent that we're setting for the future? And what you're saying is exactly right. This puts us on a path where. How can we really be a just nation?

[C]

Because it used to be that. Oh, even the guise was that the US President was acting on behalf of the country, not merely just the party. The party or themselves or their family.

[A]

Right. Even the guy you didn't like. You know, I talk about, you know, I think my dad voted for Kennedy, and that was, like, the last person he voted for, you know? Um. And yeah, there was this notion, I remember the Reagan years, you know, and it was like, oh, this sucks. And like, oh, they're not helping poor people. Like, that was the conversation. It wasn't at the level that it is now. When I talk with my kids, where everybody's, like, screaming at each other and crying and, you know, like, over what is happening to this country. Like, what does this government represent?

[D]

Well, I mean, when I joined the agency, I think so I grew up in a very liberal family as well. And we were all, you know, a melting pot and hope and peace and, you know, we're Buddhists. So when I went to law school was the first time I started really broadening my perspective and becoming centered. And when I was at the Agency, the same thing happened. I became more and more centered. And when I voted for Obama, I was really excited for President Trump. We went to the inauguration, the first inauguration. But over the course of his eight years, there were things he did that I did not agree with. And that was the first time where I was like, I liked this guy, but he is doing stuff that I really disagree with. And every president since then, whether I voted for them or not, has done things that I'm like, okay, let's see how that goes, or, I really kind of think that's a bad idea. So I do think that we have been on a trajectory like, democracy was always an experiment. They say it in the history books. Right. And when they first created our government, the president had, like, almost no power because the Congress was supposed to take care of it.

[A]

We are a representative republic.

[D]

They are supposed to represent us and make the decisions for us. But over time, the President has gained more and more power, which now reflects the governments that South America has, that Latin America has. Strong executives, weak Congress. If that's the direction America wants to go, then that's inevitable. Then that's inevitable. Right. Then that is the choice that Americans are making today. If this is not the direction we want to go, we need to do something about it as voters, as the public, because Congress, we can see. Congress is not going to change it on its own. We are on this trajectory until the American people step up and say, this is not the America we want.

[A]

How would you like me to step up, though? Like, I don't know how many signs I can hold up and how many pussy hats I can wear. I mean, literally. And I think this is, like, what a lot of people are feeling fatigue about, in particular, you know, people who do align with more liberal values. Like, I. I don't. I mean, many people are leaving the country.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And to me, that also feels like, gosh, I. I don't know. I mean, for me, this is the place we came to because no one else would take us. Like, that's my family story. So, like. Like, I'm American. This is like, I don't. I'm a citizen of nowhere and everywhere. Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I don't. I don't even know what that looks like. I. I don't know what marching does. My parents did it against Vietnam and, you know, like. And that was a thing, but it's like, I watch everybody marching. I'm like, we're marching for Instagram. Like, with all due respect, it's like when people show me the marches they went to, it's like, look at my cute costume I wore. And I'm like, what? What's happening?

[D]

So Andy knows that I have a horrible person inside of me.

[B]

So a very evil person.

[D]

A very evil person inside of me.

[C]

Can we speak to that person now?

[B]

See what I'm saying?

[D]

So my advice is that you have to play the game. When I first went into college, I was very hopeful, and I thought, I can change things from the inside. I can play the honest game and still win. That is not true. You have to play their game. The reason that the. That the conservative right has gotten so far is that they have spent the last 20 years prepping go. They have strategically used court cases to change law. They have strategically invested money into people that hold the values that they want to propagate. Right? That's what you have to do. You can't go out there and hold a sign and hope that everybody sees that you're right, and we'd all be better off if, you know, we sang Kumbaya together. That's not going to work. You have to invest time and money and have a good strategy to shift hearts and minds and laws.

[B]

I would say that there's. To your point about people leaving, there's. By and large, I think there's two ways that we can affect change. One is do what's best for you. And if what's best for you is leaving, I understand that your family's story was one story, but that doesn't mean it's your story. Right? You. You are a standout person in so many ways. You can write a whole different future for yourself and for your kids. The more that we stop holding on to the past and the more that we realize that we're actively writing the future, if we make that a very personal choice, people will notice. What? What will? The UK Is struggling right now because people become millionaires in the UK and then you know what they do? They leave the UK So the UK Is watching wealthy people leave and go somewhere else. Same thing's happening in the United States right now. Every person I know with a net worth of $5 million or more, if they know me well enough that we have this conversation, they have property investments or plans. Maybe they even hold already a second passport or a golden visa to go somewhere else. They're not exclusively American in an American passport with hopes and Dreams that are tied to the American economy. They are diversifying their lives, not just their portfolios. And that's important because as, as the government watches people be incentivized to leave, they're going to do everything they can to try to bring those people back or claw back what they can from those people. Because you're right that the middle class is being crushed.

[C]

Let's game this out a little bit because we talk a lot about, oh, we're moving into dictatorship. And I think a lot of people, it just is, they're like, it doesn't mean anything to them, right? They're like, okay, some of my rights are being taken away. And this is just how government works. And it's always a crisis from this generation to that generation. And this is just the next version of that. Right? But what, what actually happens? Because we're talking about the destabilization of the currency. We're talking about potential uprising, violent uprising. Like why are people that have $5 million leaving?

[B]

Jihy's families live through this. This Ji's family is from Venezuela. Like her father was born in Caracas. Like left as a Venezuelan citizen, became an American citizen. Because what we are experiencing is almost exactly what happened in Venezuela. And it's not violent. That's the most insidious part of it. It's not violent, it's not abrupt, it's slow viral kind of infection. So in a nutshell, as the American dollar loses power, it incentivizes other countries to decouple from the American dollar or to diversify into currencies other than the American dollar. Whether that's the Japanese yen or whether that's the Chinese renminbi, or whether that's the, you know, you name it, whatever currency they choose to diversify into. And keep in mind, China for a long time wasn't part of the World Bank. They, their currency was never part of that basket. It was only in the last 15 or 20 years that they became part of the basket that is, you know, part of the imf. So that brought them legitimacy and that's legitimacy there that is increasing for the Chinese currency and legitimacy that is decreasing for the US Dollar. So as the US economy reduces its power, whether you count that in GDP or PPP or currency value, whatever, as the United States decreases, other countries are increasing, whether that's one country like China or whether that's a group of countries like the BRICS nations. So you have a superpower that's decreasing and a rising power that's increasing. What that means is that the parity between the two countries is getting closer and closer, which means other countries are becoming more and more wealthy and successful, while Americans are becoming less and less wealthy and successful. At some point, you're going to reach equality. Equality is the peak of conflict. Equality is the peak of conflict. There's a promise out there that equality is going to make everybody happy. Equality just makes everybody hungrier to get a little bit ahead of their competitor. Right now, no one's trying to compete with the US except for one or two countries, right? What we call global power competitors, GPC countries. When the time comes that the United States is basically a paradox with China, that means Americans have to learn Chinese. It's not an option anymore. Right.

[A]

That's why we don't like to learn any language except English.

[B]

If you look at the languages spoken around the world, only 25% of all the people who speak English are native English speakers. 75% of the people who speak English worldwide learned it as a second or third language because they knew they needed it for success.

[A]

That's how we knew we're winning. I mean, that's what people would say.

[B]

At a minimum. Just imagine that your grandkids might have to learn Chinese, not by choice, not as an elective, but because if they want to have a career as an adult, they have to learn Chinese. That's a scary thought, and that's a very simple thought to understand if that's what they have to learn to speak. What does that mean about your 401k? What does that mean about your bank account? What does that mean about your small business? What does that mean about policy that's being levied that impacts everything from your health care to your job to your minimum wage? Everything changes as the United States declines from its role of global superpower.

[D]

And so my first professional job was with a nonprofit organization who began by working with Holocaust survivors, and then it expanded its services to work with torture survivors and refugees. And so that exposure made me realize that just like Andy was saying, it doesn't happen quickly. There are always. It's always a slow burn, and there are always signs along the way. I mean, if you look at, you know, from the time that Hitler was, you know, Hitler took power to when things were really obviously bad, it was a couple of years, and there were things happening all along the way that, you know, people either thought, well, it can't get any worse than this, or they were like, well, you know, maybe we'll wait it out a little bit longer, because I don't want to uproot my business. And then next thing you know, it's too late. So, you know, for me, and then, you know, my family's from Venezuela and we watched that happen too. And it was a slow burn of everything.

[C]

Give us a little thumbnail for people who haven't followed it or don't know the history.

[D]

Yeah. So Venezuela and the, you know, Venezuela used to be 1980s. Yeah. 70s, 80s, late 70s, early 80s. So it's an oil country. They were, they had lots of oil money. It's a beautiful, beautiful country. Amazing people, amazing food. But over time, there was a bigger and bigger gap between the wealthy and the poor. And the poor in Venezuela are really, really poor. So over time, because of that gap, eventually Hugo Chavez was brought to power because so many people were suffering. And I think people forget that people can only suffer and be oppressed for so long before they are going to make a change, either through uprising or voting and voting, you know, a strong armed president into power who says, I will take care of it, I will take care of you, I will take care of all of your needs. And that's what that was. The promise from Hugo Chavez.

[C]

And they were, the country was, you know, people were suffering and almost they were brainwashed. They just needed something to believe in and they empowered someone to take care of these problems, whether or not he had their best interest in mind or not.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

And the Chavez, the Chavez administration was buying votes, in essence. Yeah, like buying it with promises, buying it with eggs, buying it with milk and bread. Because at the time, the country was, was such that every vote was equal. So if you get a vote from a poor, uneducated person doesn't even understand what they're voting for, or whether you get a vote from an educated elite, doesn't matter. The vote is still a vote.

[D]

Right. And so, you know, he, he's voted on all these promises and there's this legitimate suffering that's happening, but because the previous administrations never, never tended to it, now we have somebody who's basically inept at running a country and everything tanks. He makes everything state owned. He takes the pd, which is the oil company, he kicks out all the foreigners who were doing the, you know, the oil processing and the, you know, finding the oil, things like that. All of their other sources of income, he made it state run. Nobody really knew how to do it because it was his cronies. And the whole country tanks. And now massive inflation.

[C]

Yeah, their currencies devalued. Anyone who had savings lost everything.

[B]

Lost everything.

[D]

And millions of people left, anybody who could leave. It was a complete brain drain, it was a complete money drain. And now everybody who's left there is all, they're all suffering.

[B]

And now, decades later, it's not any better.

[D]

Right?

[B]

And that's, that's the thing that we need to understand is that so much bad can happen in such a short period of time, but it takes such a long time to build something good and robust. I don't believe that our country's doomed, but I do believe that just like you're saying, we are at a place where the conversations that we have around our dinner table, the conversations that we have with our teenage children are way more mature and radical than we ever had when we were teenagers. And that should be a sign that we have to ask ourselves what kind of conversation do we want our children having with their teenagers and what can we do now to shape those conversations then?

[C]

I think what you're talking about in terms of strategy and going after in a legislative way, impact and how to have impact is important. But what are some of the signs that you're looking at that are happening in the US not to again fear monger, but to sort of parallel and understand where we are. For example, the privatization, is that equivalent to having impact where our allies are no longer allies and we're treating them in a way economically that is pushing them away. Like what are the things that you're seeing currently in the US that are causes or red flags?

[B]

For me, a large part of it is the currency. What's happening to the US Dollar, the fact that the currency isn't stable and the fact that other countries are learning how to make their currency more attractive by kind of turning to a more pragmatic term of agreement rather than an ideological term of agreement. What I mean by that is the United States for a long time since World War II has basically said if you want to do business with us, you have to believe in democracy and you have to fit these certain rules. We even have rules about like anti corruption and non corruption acts where we won't do business with corrupt officials in foreign countries. Well, we say we won't. Right. Where, where? Other countries. Yeah, other countries don't put those stipulations in place. Business is business. It's transactional. It's either, it's pragmatic, it's not ideological. So when I watch our currency decline, that's a big part of what frustrates me. The other thing that that is a sign for me is when we see education be something that is, is driven by policy.

[C]

The research, the, the attack on research. Even if you don't like the dei, which I can understand, look, there's, there's a lot there that we're not going to tackle. But the attack on research and the brain drain that comes from restricting the brightest people in the world who once saw the US as a beacon from coming here is a serious concern.

[B]

When you attack universities, when you start to use funding and when you start to use banking and funding as penalties, when we seized Russian assets as an example in support of Ukraine, you can't do that. If you seize someone else's money because they put their money in your bank in good faith and then you seize their money because you disagree with them, all that does is tell everybody else.

[C]

Out there, don't put your money in.

[B]

There, don't put your money in that bank, because if they disagree with you, they're going to take your money. And that's exactly what China did. They pulled their money out of American banks, decreasing the power of the American dollar. But you're exactly right, these are signs for me because it's not something that affects us today, it's something that affects us for the next five years, 12 years, 18 years or more. When you attack liberal institutions, when you attack schools of thought, when you reduce research, when you use funding as a penalty or as a reward, I mean, I wasn't happy when I was, even when we were like in our 20s or in high school and they started talking about whether or not you can say one nation under God, I didn't understand why that was a thing. And now I realize that calling into question education at all has incredible long term impact.

[D]

Yeah, for me too. Watching the educational institutions be attacked, and I'm watching them, watching them acquiesce to the demands is very concerning for me. I keep my eye more on civil rights issues. So as rights begin to be taken away, and it's not necessarily as they begin to be taken away, but it's as they are taken away and nobody says anything.

[B]

I think there are many signs that we should all be paying attention to. And there's personal signs too. And every one of us is seeing signs in our personal lives that show us the trajectory that we're on is unnerving. At the very least, it's not confident. We don't know where it's going. It could go up, it could go down. And nobody likes to gamble for real. And that's essentially what we all have to do right now, is either gamble or stand up. And one of the ways that we've always talked about, like standing up, that doesn't involve a sign or an Instagram selfie, like you said, one of the ways that we've always talked about really stepping up is voting for that third party. What happens when we have a record breaking voter turnout and a record breaking amount of voters for a third party?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It still means that one of the other two parties is going to win. But right now, everybody goes to the polls thinking, I don't want to waste my vote. So they vote not for who they want, but for their second or third choice.

[A]

Well, and I think that's a good point, you know, also is that the, you know, if we talk about sort of removing a partisan voice from our universities. Right. From liberal institutions.

[D]

We.

[A]

We don't want to live in a country where kind of like the loudest, wealthiest voice wins. And I think that's sort of the danger. And if the president, let's say, is not the party that you like, you're not going to like anything they do. Right. Unless they're doing something that personally serves you. And that's also not the way we sort of make decisions, you know, and I think that's complicated. I think the university example is a great one where civil rights has to be a foundational bottom line of us as citizens of this country. And that's always true. And there always has to be a conversation about what is a defense of free speech, how do we protect people's rights, while also not making it a partisan argument of my side's gonna win and so your side has to pay. And I think that's also what a lot of people don't understand and are still trying to negotiate around what we believe.

[C]

You know, back to the Leaving America part. If one chooses to leave America, you know, there's only a certain number of places that they may want to go if they want to continue to be in one of the superpower options. Right. You can think that China's on the rise, maybe they want to go there. If you're thinking about your economic stability and you're concerned about your investments in the US declining, then you would want to place them into a rising competitor. Right. So then the options are the eu and is the EU really better off than the US like, trying, you know, because I think people hear this and they're like, it's hyperbolic. Right. For some, it's like, well, can I really uplift root my life? Many people can't. The people who can. So, like, I'M curious because I had this conversation. My father is in finance and we sort of do this. Our dinner table speculation is how is the world going to collapse and if so, what do you do about budget? Right. And his perspective is that every country besides Germany has a massive amount of debt. The US's debt, especially with the big beautiful bill, is skyrocketing. You know, our mutual friend Tom Billu is like, this is going to guarantee that the US is going to go bankrupt. And in that becomes this increasing divide between the rich and the poor. And when the poor are poor enough, then massive civil unrest happens and no one is safe. You can't have a huge economic divide. It's just not. You need a functional and thriving middle class for an economy and a society to, to be safe and to be healthy. So does Europe, is Europe better off in that regard? If everyone is in debt or is like, you know, because there's so much turmoil, some people will say, well, there's just this turmoil and there's no real path through it. I'm curious.

[B]

Well, I would say that your, your foundational argument is flawed, okay. Because it's not necessarily about going to another competitor. Think of it like a, if you're, if you're a superstar athlete, you don't just go to your rival. You don't especially go to your rival right away because to do that creates all sorts of secondary and tertiary issues that become difficult. Right. What's your contract rate going to be? How are people going to view you, what's your fan base opinion, et cetera, et cetera. So you don't go to a superpower. So you're not going to leave the United States to go to China. Please, whatever camera is looking at me, which camera's looking at me? That camera's, do not leave the United States to go to China. If there's anything that we should have learned in the last six months or so, it's that China has zero problem detaining you. Just because you're an American, you're not going to thrive in China. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do business with Chinese businesses from a safe place like Switzerland. But you don't go to fucking China. You don't leave the United States to go to a competitor. You leave to go to a more, a more stable, not, there's no place better, no place is better than any other place, but you can find a place that's going to be more stable, say for the next 10 or 15 years, while the United States will be Unstable for the next 10 or 15 years. You can go to Portugal, you can go to Costa Rica, you can go to Switzerland, you can go to Croatia. You can go to any number of these places where they. They're not better than the United States, but the stability for the next 10 or 15 years will look differently. And then one of the beautiful things about being American is that we still have a strong passport, we still have a strong currency. For now, that could change. Well, conveniently, it takes about 10 years to change your citizenship. So you could go to another country not to give up your American citizenship, but to gain a second citizenship.

[C]

Just to keep options open.

[B]

Just to keep options open. And guess who gets to keep whatever second citizenship you gain? Your children. So you're literally giving your children additional options. Right. And that's how professionals in the intelligence world see it. It's not a matter of finding what's better right now. It's a matter of what can I do now to give me more options in an uncertain future?

[A]

Croatia.

[D]

I've heard some things.

[A]

I mean, I've been there. I actually went on a USO tour. I did a USO tour several years ago, so I got to see army bases all over the world, which was really amazing. Croatia is beautiful.

[C]

Portugal's nice.

[A]

I was. I was not on an army base in Portugal. I was in Djibouti.

[B]

Not so nice.

[A]

I was in the Middle East.

[B]

It was, you know, beautiful or not beautiful is not really what I'm talking.

[A]

Well, some people think, like, Croatia and it's like. What's that like? But they're. It. There are also, like, Picturesque. Enjoyable.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Beautiful things.

[B]

It's on the cusp of, like, a.

[A]

Lot of people here like that, and they think like, war, and it's, you know.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, that's. Yeah, that's fair. But it's on the verge of becoming a member of the eu on. On using the Euro like, it's on the rise in a lot of ways. It's a. It's a place where not just Americans, but. But successful people, digital nomads from all over the world are kind of flocking in that direction because of the low cost of living, of the stability, especially stability for being a foreigner in Croatia, which never forget, when you're an American and you leave the United States, you're not. You're not a local in that country. You are a foreigner in that country. In the United States, we don't treat foreigners very well. In other countries, it's the opposite. A lot of countries treat foreigners very, very well because they see foreigners as an injection point for a foreign currency into their economy, whereas here we just see foreigners as people who speak funny.

[A]

We're going to hit pause here. We've got a lot more with Andy and Jihi Bustamante coming up in Part two. We open part two with are we going to be involved in another world war? So we get a little bit more into geopolitics. We talk about ir, talk about the differences between an interstate and an intra state war. And Jihee's gonna explain what she believes the biggest problem is for U.S. citizens. And we're also gonna do a little bit of a deep dive into the anxiety disorder that Jihee was diagnosed with and how and why the CIA prefers people who are struggling as the perfect recruits.

[C]

If you haven't already subscribed to Mayimbialik's breakdown on Substack, head there now. Check it out. We release exclusive content there that you cannot find anywhere else. And we have a really hilarious behind the scenes take video of what it was like for Mayim to sit down in my seat. It's hilarious and you can only get it at Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack.

[A]

And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.

[B]

It's Mayim Bialik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience science PhD or two.

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