Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown

Episode Summary: Inside the Hidden World of Secret Societies with Dr. Richard Spence

Date: November 11, 2025
Guest: Dr. Richard Spence (Professor Emeritus of History, University of Idaho)
Host: Mayim Bialik | Co-host: Jonathan Cohen

Overview

In this compelling episode, Mayim Bialik and her co-host Jonathan Cohen are joined by secret society expert Dr. Richard Spence to unravel the history, influence, and inner workings of secret societies—from Freemasons to the Illuminati, from occult lodges to political cabals. The conversation spans origins, rituals, influence on the founding of the U.S., gender dynamics, morality veiled in allegory, the Nazi connection, and the continuous impact of such organizations on contemporary politics and society.

Dr. Spence demystifies what “secret society” truly means, unpacks myths and realities, and reframes the discussion about power, secrecy, control, and group psychology, all while indulging in captivating anecdotes and memorable exchanges.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Defines a Secret Society?

• Not always hidden: Secret societies are often public in existence, but secretive about inner rituals, beliefs, and purposes.
• Authority & Exclusivity: The allure centers around being chosen and the accompanying vanity; exclusivity provides status.
  • "You join the organization, you're admitted. Remember, you're chosen... you've become part of something that other people can't get into." – Dr. Spence (10:23)
• Oath and secrecy: Swearing secrecy acts as a test of character and a mechanism of internal cohesion.
  • "If you swear an oath and you break it, what have you demonstrated? That you never were trustworthy to begin with." – Dr. Spence (12:29)

2. Why Are Humans Drawn to Secret Societies?

• Fraternity and protection: Mayim highlights the human desire for community, protection, and boundaries against vulnerability.
  • "We want a brotherhood. We want a sisterhood. It keeps being attacked. It maintains a boundary against vulnerability." – Mayim (06:43)
• Mysticism and ritual: Rituals, symbols, and mystery provide psychological allure; Adam Weishaupt (founder of the Illuminati) is quoted for saying nothing appeals to the mind more than a concealed mystery.
  • "There’s an appeal to mysticism... nothing so appeals to the human mind than a concealed mystery." – Dr. Spence (07:16)

3. History, Gender, and Power

• Male-dominated: The vast majority of well-known societies are historically male-only; Freemasonry, Illuminati, Bohemian Club, etc.
• Women’s involvement: Mayim probes the rare female equivalents—sororities and midwives—and the existence of “irregular lodges” admitting women.
  • "I only think of men and their secret societies. Sororities is one of the only... besides witches, where you have a bunch of women..." – Mayim (19:34)
• Auxiliaries: Female auxilaries like The Order of the Eastern Star and youth grooming groups like Job’s Daughters and Demolay exist, with Demolay named after a Templar martyr hated by the Catholic Church.
  • "My grandmother was always in the Eastern Star... then the Job’s Daughters... And then there's the Demoles, which in American Freemasonry are the Boys Auxiliary." – Dr. Spence (41:24)

4. Freemasons & the Founding of the U.S.

• Truths & Myths: While iconic figures like Washington and Franklin were Freemasons, overall numbers were small; the idea that the U.S. is a “Masonic republic” is an exaggeration.
  • "George Washington was definitely a member. Absolutely... Benjamin Franklin was, but Thomas Jefferson maybe." – Dr. Spence (21:56)
  • "There weren't a lot of Freemasons in colonial America... Less than 5,000 out of 3 million." – Dr. Spence (23:31)
• Class & Power: Freemasonry served as a “rich guys club” where the select educated elite reinforced bonds and perhaps shared political ambitions.

5. Political Influence and Revolutionary Activity

• Safe haven for plotting: Secret societies provide the perfect cover for like-minded, often elite men to strategize, coordinate, and sometimes foster revolution.
  • "You’ve generally created a group of like minded people... you then have a kind of petri dish to create all other sorts of things... There have been whole revolutions plotted within lodges." – Dr. Spence (33:18)
  • Young Turks Example: The Young Turk revolution that overthrew the Ottoman Sultan was famously plotted in a Masonic lodge (33:25).

6. Influence on Modern Politics & Conspiracy

• Morality, symbolism, and power: Freemasonry described as “a system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols,” which, to outsiders, seems a form of thought control.
  • "That's an answer that tells me nothing. That's a non-answer... designed for further obscurantism." – Dr. Spence (30:11)
• Post-war decline & online rise: After WWII, secret societies waned, but digital “societies” (e.g., QAnon) now function under some of the same group psychological dynamics (41:08).
  • "There's also a lot of secret societies forming online. Is QAnon a secret society?" – Mayim (41:08)

7. Secret Societies, the Occult, and the Nazi Party

• Occult simply means “hidden”: The term has been linked with the diabolical, but at root, refers to the hidden, the unseen.
  • "The term really means is that it’s hidden. It is a system of control." – Dr. Spence (18:13, 58:29)
• Thule Society & Nazi Origins:
  • The Thule Society, an occult-mystical group, served as a front for political organizing in post-WWI Munich and ultimately incubated the German Workers' Party, which became the Nazi Party.
  • "The Nazi Party is a direct evolution of this spin-off of the Thule Society... Hitler in 1919 is sent by the army to infiltrate..." – Dr. Spence (65:29)
  • Army as the actual power: The German Army orchestrated much of this from behind the scenes, aiming to maintain control post-Versailles:
    • "The guiding hand is the army... you focus on [the society], but your attention is being diverted because the people actually pulling the strings... is the army." – Dr. Spence (70:44)

8. Are Secret Societies Training Breeding Grounds for Dangerous Leaders?

• Potential for good or evil: The power to shape, influence, and create “better” men can be manipulated for nefarious ends, as exemplified in the Nazi case with Hitler.
  • "They trained him to have influence... It's the philosophy of the guiding organization that's going to drive what the influence is." – Jonathan Cohen (70:18)
  • "The tool can be used for good or evil." – Jonathan Cohen (70:18)
• Frankenstein’s Monster: The creators often lose control over their tool; what begins as a servant (a leader/movement) can become the master.
  • "They created someone who they thought would be a tool... and that tool eventually overpowers them. It's Frankenstein." – Dr. Spence (72:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On secrecy for secrecy’s sake:
  “You may be getting the secrets of the universe explained to you here, and most people just can't handle that. So you have been chosen to receive particular wisdom...”
  — Dr. Spence (10:49)

• On the inevitability of group influence:
  “You exist as an agency to protect the secrets of your government and to acquire the secrets of opposing governments.”
  — Dr. Spence, on CIA (00:42)

• On religious hostility:
  “The relationship historically between Freemasonry and Catholicism is hostile... every pope between about 1738 and the early 20th century said something bad about Freemasonry.”
  — Dr. Spence (46:14)

• On defining 'occult':
  “The term really means is that it’s hidden… people tend to think of it as diabolical… but all the term really means is that it's hidden. And what is hidden is a hidden world.”
  — Dr. Spence (18:13, 58:29)

• On control:
  “What I tend to sense out of it is that it is a system of control, that once I'm within the organization, I then become subject to the organization.”
  — Dr. Spence (51:41)

Key Timestamps

• 00:26 — Conspiracies and revolution in secret societies
• 06:43 — Human need for fraternity and the appeal of ritual
• 10:23 — Exclusivity, vanity, and the oath of secrecy
• 21:56 — Were the founding fathers Freemasons?
• 33:25 — Secret societies as crucibles for revolution (Young Turks)
• 41:08 — The rise and transformation of secret societies, post-war to digital age
• 46:14 — Catholic Church vs. Freemasonry rivalry
• 51:41 — Secret societies as systems of control
• 58:29 — “Occult” — what does the term really mean?
• 65:29 — How the Thule Society and German Army incubated the Nazi Party
• 70:08 — Are secret societies breeding grounds for dangerous leaders?
• 72:10 — Creators often lose control—the Frankenstein analogy
• 73:38 — Tease for Part 2: CIA, cults vs. religion, “brainwashing,” and MAGA roots

Tone & Style

The conversation blends Mayim’s probing curiosity, Jonathan’s sharp skepticism, and Dr. Spence’s scholarly depth and dry wit. The tone is informal, highly engaging, and rich with off-the-cuff humor and relatable asides, even as the subject matter runs dark or arcane. The dynamic interplay and willingness to question, challenge, and amuse make the episode both educational and entertaining.

Conclusion

This episode digs far beneath the surface of secret societies: what draws people in, the psychological and social mechanisms at work, how such societies have shaped political revolutions and world events, and why their mystique persists, now multiplying in the digital age. Dr. Spence warns that, whether for good or ill, the secrecy and exclusivity of such organizations empower them disproportionately. And as history shows, the forces they conjure aren't always under anyone’s control.

Stay tuned for Part 2, which will explore the CIA, mind control, the difference between cults and religions, and contemporary political influence.

For further exploration, visit the Mayim Bialik's Breakdown Substack for extended conversations and insights.