PART TWO: The Science Behind Trauma: The Connection to Inflammation & Depression & How You Can Heal

Summary

Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown
PART TWO: The Science Behind Trauma: Inflammation, Depression & How You Can Heal
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Host: Mayim Bialik
Co-Host: Jonathan Cohen
Guest: Dr. Amy Apigian

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

The second installment of Mayim Bialik’s deep-dive with Dr. Amy Apigian explores the intricate connections between trauma, inflammation, depression, and physical health, focusing on the cutting-edge science that links the biology of trauma to common chronic conditions and autoimmunity. Dr. Amy, a double board-certified physician in preventive and addiction medicine, shares the latest research and her clinical experience bridging mind, body, and biology to help people heal—sometimes even reversing autoimmune diseases. This episode is packed with practical insights and surprising revelations about gut feelings, the nervous system’s role, somatic healing, gender differences, and how to reclaim presence and purpose in post-trauma life.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

I. Expanding the Definition of Trauma-Driven Illness (00:54)

• Mayim and Jonathan recap Part One, referencing microglia, fatigue, shutdown states, caffeine/alcohol, and trauma’s impact on basic cellular function.
• In Part Two, they shift focus from general trauma physiology to its role in depression, anxiety, autoimmune disorders, and even gut intuition.

II. The Nervous System as Master Regulator (04:30)

• Dr. Amy reframes the conversation: "Everything in the body is driven by the nervous system, because the nervous system decides our inner state. ... Helping my patients learn to shift their inner state in the moment did them more good than writing the prescription for any medication" [04:30].
• The nervous system constantly chooses between three states (not just stress and rest, but also trauma/shutdown), influencing every symptom from migraines to IBS.

III. IBS: Origins & the Fluctuating Nervous System (05:40)

• Dr. Amy shares research: IBS often results from early childhood experiences where the nervous system rapidly oscillated between stress and shutdown, setting a lifelong physiological pattern.
• Mayim highlights the complexity: genes, epigenetics, diet, social factors, and even vaccine status interact to shape biology [07:41].

IV. The Cascade: Trauma→Inflammation→Disrupted Neurochemistry (08:43–13:41)

• Depression and anxiety are explored as logical outcomes of failed stress responses and chronic adrenaline overload:
  • "Anxiety isn't bad. It's just, well, what are we doing with it? ... When we can't see how to change our situation, that's when depression sets in." [10:05 – Dr. Amy]
• Trauma and the resulting inflammation disrupt serotonin and dopamine, fueling further trauma—a self-perpetuating cycle. 80%+ of serotonin is made in the gut, compounding the gut-brain connection [10:05–12:30].

V. Trauma Patterns: Emotional & Behavioral Echoes (13:11–15:34)

• Mayim connects cellular and emotional patterns: seeking drama, high-risk behaviors, and cyclical relationships can reflect biological driving forces.
• Dr. Amy: "What makes a person feel safe is familiarity. If chaos is familiar, peace can actually feel threatening." [13:41]

VI. Visualization, Escapism, and the Limits of Mindset (19:01)

• Many 'healing' visualizations and meditations can become another means of escape: "Many forms of meditation are just a way of escaping our present reality ... Escape is how trauma lives in our body." [19:20 – Dr. Amy]
• The key is building the capacity to be present, not just 'mindset work'.

VII. Microdosing Safety & Somatic Healing (20:18–25:44)

• Dr. Amy shares her journey: therapy actually made her worse when attempted too quickly, leading her to create "microdosing safety"—gradually teaching the body brief moments of presence and calm.
• Progress can be measured in real-life tests: handling change, goodbyes, or unfamiliar experiences without resorting to old coping mechanisms [24:16].

VIII. Demonstration: Somatic Tools in Action (30:22–33:23)

• Dr. Amy leads Mayim through a simple somatic exercise: holding a pillow to the upper belly, tuning into physical sensation, and noticing feelings of coziness and settling: "Look at how fast that happened. ... This is why I have a weighted shawl at my desk at all times." [32:02]
• The stomach, unprotected by bone, is a key area for primal safety and tension; nurturing this area can quickly downregulate stress.

IX. The Science of Gut Feelings (35:27)

• "Gut feeling" is explained as interoception—the brain's perception of internal body states.
• Trauma can blunt or distort these signals, but healing restores a more accurate and helpful intuition [36:12–37:42].

X. Productivity, Purpose, and Energy (41:42–45:30)

• Dr. Amy: "We are intended to have the energy to find what makes us most happy. ... Not having a purpose is a sign your body's in that trauma biology state" [42:51].
• Jonathan discusses the value of 'white space' and rest for clarity and letting purpose emerge naturally rather than grinding for it.

XI. High-Functioning Women & Autoimmunity (53:48–58:08)

• Emotional patterns and attachment wounds shape disease risk. Dr. Amy shares clinical stories of women "who run businesses ... and then have this autoimmunity"—linking it to early experiences of not being held enough [55:08].
• Autoimmunity often stems from internalized anger, loss of voice, or codependency: "It's an internal attack ... anger turned inwards" [68:25].

XII. Healing & Reversing Autoimmunity (70:07–73:41)

• "When we stop seeing ourselves as the problem ... when we do the mind, body, and biology work ... autoimmunity is very reversible." [71:22]
• Dr. Amy explains her own healing from an autoimmune precursor, now symptom-free and off medication, and highlights client cases.
• Essential to address all three levels: mindset/self-relationship, somatic/body work, and biology (inflammation, oxidative stress, etc).

XIII. Menopause, Trauma, and Opportunity (73:53–76:12)

• Menopause can be a time of profound renewal—or a storm of symptoms—depending on past trauma load and unaddressed stress/imbalance.
• "Because these hormonal shifts surface old traumas, it’s actually the best time for a woman to do trauma work." [73:53]
• Mayim underscores the link between adverse childhood experiences and later reproductive/menopausal problems; standard treatments (pill, antidepressants) miss the mark.

XIV. Presence, Productivity, and the Artist’s Dilemma (79:09–85:32)

• Host banter: Is productivity rooted in trauma or inspiration? Does suffering fuel creativity? (Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Poe, Rumi referenced).
• "There's another fuel source for creativity ... presence, connection, and safety." [82:31 – Jonathan]
• Mayim and Jonathan unpack how present-moment living, rather than stress-driven busyness, can unlock deeper, more effective creativity and action.

XV. Final Thoughts: The Macrocosm of the Cell (86:21–89:40)

• "The words you use for a healthy cell are the same as for a healthy person ... you are your cell. You are a macrocosm of the cell." [87:11 – Mayim]
• Biology, thought, and emotional patterns are intimately linked: trauma on a cellular level becomes trauma in the mind and life.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

• “Everything in the body is driven by the nervous system, because the nervous system decides our inner state.” (Dr. Amy – 04:30)
• “IBS is a result of early childhood experiences where our nervous system fluctuated very quickly between the two survival states… that created the baseline for IBS to develop.” (Dr. Amy – 07:41)
• “Trauma only begets more trauma. It's one of the saddest things in life. You didn't just get hit once, you're going to keep getting hit…” (Dr. Amy – 12:25)
• “What is safe to a person is what they know. It's the unknown that is unsafe.” (Dr. Amy – 13:41)
• “Many forms of meditation are just a way of escaping our present reality. … Escape is one of the forms of how trauma lives in our body.” (Dr. Amy – 19:20)
• “[Healing] is microdosing safety. Because too much safety—and they were like, ‘Whoa, whoa, whoa, this doesn’t feel safe.’ ... Feeling safe, relaxing, means I’m vulnerable.” (Dr. Amy – 21:36)
• “This is why I have a weighted shawl at my desk at all times… It's a very different response than if I'm like, ‘I don't know if I'm going to be okay.’” (Dr. Amy – 32:02)
• “Autoimmunity often targets high-functioning women... It's about not being held enough—attachment pains from early life.” (Dr. Amy – 54:36)
• “Autoimmunity is an internal attack. ... It’s the anger turned inward.” (Dr. Amy – 68:25)
• “When we stop seeing ourselves as the problem… we can reverse autoimmunity.” (Dr. Amy – 71:22)
• “Menopause is the best time for a woman to do trauma work because it will surface traumas that have been stuffed pretty deep.” (Dr. Amy – 73:53)
• “The words that you use to describe what a cell looks like when it's healthy are the same you use to describe a person when they're healthy… you are your cell.” (Mayim – 87:11)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR CORE SEGMENTS

00:54 – What this episode covers: trauma, depression, intuition, autoimmunity 04:30 – The nervous system as master regulator, patient empowerment 07:41 – IBS, early trauma, epigenetics, and gut health 10:05 – The protective logic of depression and anxiety, biochemistry 13:11–15:34 – Emotions echoing biology, seeking danger/familiarity 19:20 – Visualization and escapism, the danger of bypassing presence 20:18 – "Microdosing safety": building presence after trauma 24:16 – Real test of healing: handling change/closure 30:22 – Guided somatic exercise with the pillow 35:27 – Gut feelings, intuition, interoception 41:42 – Passion for life, energy, and the nervous system 53:48 – Emotional patterns in autoimmune disease, attachment wounds 58:58 – Resilience: cultural myths and building real strength 63:39 – Why women get more autoimmune diseases: social/biological reasons 70:07 – Reversing autoimmunity: real-life examples and approach 73:53 – Perimenopause/menopause as opportunity to heal trauma 79:09+ – Banter on productivity, creativity, and the biology of inspiration versus trauma 86:21+ – The cell-person macrocosm, and the “emotional echo” of biology

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TAKEAWAYS & PRACTICAL TOOLS

• Trauma regulation requires a holistic approach: mind, body, and biology must be addressed together for the deepest healing.
• Somatic interventions (like the “pillow on belly” exercise) are often the fastest and most effective entry point to shift nervous system states.
• Emotional and physical symptoms are not purely “mental” or “chemical”—they’re the ongoing echoes of the body’s attempt to be safe.
• Purpose, presence, and productivity are natural outcomes of a well-regulated, nourished, and safe nervous system.
• Autoimmunity and chronic illness in women follow patterns rooted in societal, developmental, and attachment wounds—but can be reversed when root causes are addressed.
• Menopause can be a portal to deep healing if met with curiosity and presence.
• To heal, we must learn to microdose safety, build presence, and tune in to our bodies’ internal signals—a process that rewires not only mind, but also cellular function.

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FOR MORE

• Dr. Amy Apigian: biologyoftrauma.com
• Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown: Substack & YouTube for bonus content, discussion, and follow-up episodes.

This episode is a rich, hopeful conversation for anyone seeking to understand (or heal from) the deep links between trauma, mind, and body—especially if you have ever felt dismissed, misdiagnosed, or told “it’s all in your head”.

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Note: All ad/promo segments were omitted. This summary reflects core, content-rich sections, preserves the hosts’ inquisitive, collaborative tone, and attributes all expert statements to Dr. Amy Apigian or the hosts by name and timestamp.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Mayan Bialik.

[B]

I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[A]

And welcome to our breakdown. Welcome in particular to part two of our conversation with someone who is a specialist in the biology of trauma. We're talking to Dr. Amy app again and we hope that you will check out part one of the episode where we discussed so many aspects of trauma. The cellular mechanisms underlying trauma, the different stigma states of shutdown that our body will engage in when it doesn't feel safe, all about caffeine, about alcohol, how your body is fighting to stay alive, and what we're doing that's countering that. That was all in part one.

[B]

And we cover how when we're shut down on a biological level, our body stops producing the energy we need to be excited for life, to feel happy, to use our intuition and to be productive.

[A]

Also, shout out to anyone who's interested in microglia a whole conversation about those supportive neurons in episode one. Episode two, which we are here to talk about right now, goes into how trauma informs depression and anxiety. We're also gonna talk about what is the biological mechanism behind intuition? Is there a way to explain a gut feeling? Also, we go deep into autoimmune disorders, why women are disproportionately affected. And Dr. Amy believes that you can absolutely reverse an autoimmune condition, which shocked me and I'm very interested in this. We also talk about emotional patterns of disease. What kind of personalities are more likely to get sick, what kind of different personalities lead to different kinds of sickness, and what is the impact of trauma on. On perimenopause and menopausal symptoms? There is so much in this second episode, we cannot wait to share it with you. Make sure to also go over to Substack. Learn about substack. Go to substack.com, mayimbialics breakdown has more on this and so many other topics. So please check that out. And without further ado, let's welcome back double board certified physician in preventive and addiction medicine, Dr. Amy Appagan. Break it down. You've mentioned brain fog, you've mentioned lethargy, you've mentioned sleep problems. And you, you kind of, you vaguely mentioned chronic pain, but I wonder when you talk about these things and the other ones that, that you have spoken about, you know, surprising physical symptoms of unresolved trauma. Right? Brain fog, lethargy, sleep problems, chronic pain. You also talk about migraines and you talk about irritable bowel syndrome. And I don't have irritable bowel syndrome. I have Been given that diagnosis for a lot of fascinating reasons which we don't need to get into. But for people who have ibs, for people who have migraines, for people who have chronic pain or sleep problems or lethargy or brain fog, we've already been told by the medical establishment what's wrong with us. We have migraines, we have ibs, we have chronic pain. And here are the medications you take. And here, if you're lucky, are some of the lifestyle changes you should make, right, with migraines. Like, oh, caffeine, chocolate, check out your hormones. Maybe if you've been a woman in the last five years before then it was like, we don't know. But when people are given these diagnoses, what you're suggesting is that under these things is a long running cascade of biological processes and a shutdown, a shutdown state that has been induced because of increased and prolonged stress which led at some point to trauma. How do we start to make an inroad into arenas of the medical field that we've been told are, are handled? Don't worry about it, we got you. Here's the medication. Maybe try and, you know, not drink caffeine the three hours before you go to sleep. You're suggesting there's a completely different approach to some of literally the most common complaints that I would argue most Americans are experiencing. I don't mean to, you know, hold your feet to the fire, but please help us understand how do we reframe how we think about some of the most common things ailing people?

[C]

The way that I've come to see it is that everything in the body is driven by the nervous system, because the nervous system decides our inner state. We have three different operating modes or inner states. We are in one or the other at all times. And knowing that the nervous system is changing, that is what gave me the insight to realize that when I could help my patients learn to shift their inner state in the moment, I was doing them more good than writing the prescription for any medication, supplement or diet.

[A]

Wow. Can you talk about those three states and talk about what are some of the ways that again, that we can frame some of these common ailments? Talk about ibs. That's one that I was like, I don't know, it seems like it's a genetic thing and it runs in families. Right? And you get it. And, you know, people used to be told like, it's all in your head. And then we finally started to understand, oh, well, I guess my stomach gets upset when I'M nervous. Maybe IBS is just a more exaggerated version of that. What do we know in particular about something like ibs?

[C]

We actually know a lot about IBS and its relationship to the nervous system. And this information has been in the medical literature for decades now. And they're still not listening. Not that that's going to be a surprise to anyone here, but it's not that we don't have the science. I think that we're. We've run into is that we, we haven't known what to do about it. I remember talking with Dr. Vincent Felitti and he's saying, look, just asking them, what happened to you? Improved patient outcomes. But yet when he told his colleagues this, they looked at him and they were like, but what do I do with that information? And he was like, you don't have to do anything. That's the whole point. You just ask. It's the asking that changes the outcomes, not the doing something. But we as practitioners are so programmed to do something. We do something, we prescribe something, we solve problems. And so what do you mean I don't do something? And a lot of times, honestly, it's. We don't want to, we don't want to hear. We don't want to hear because in some way it's going to resonate with something we've been through and we haven't resolved it ourselves yet. So this idea then, that there is so much nervous system regulation behind every physical health symptom, condition and diagnosis, and especially ibs, I get really excited about because we have some specific data that will blow your mind. Here's what we know. IBS is a result of early childhood experiences where our nervous system would have fluctuated very quickly between the two survival states. The two survival states being stress and the shutdown or trauma. And it's the fluctuation between those two that created the baseline for IBS to develop.

[A]

And not everyone who's fluctuating between those will develop ibs. Some people will develop other fun things that will depend on what gen, what genetic imprint you are bringing. That will depend on epigenetics. It'll depend on also environment, a variety of things that can pull all of these levers. It will also depend on diet. It will depend on, and this is not a political statement. It will depend on vaccine status. It will depend on access to healthcare. It'll depend on what kind of dairy you're eating and what hormones you're eating. Like everything matters, right?

[C]

And this is why. This is the. Exactly the concept of the biology of trauma, all of those things at the end of the day, create an internal biology that is either one of safety or one of fear. And those things, your diet, your environment, toxins, vaccines, they're all cues of safety or danger to your nervous system. And it's the cumulative effect.

[A]

Can you talk a little bit about depression? You know, depression and anxiety? I don't have the stats in front of me, but this is one of, I'd say, the most common complaints, you know, things that people present with. And what's becoming even more and more common is, you know, internal medicine, doctors basically just writing prescriptions for antidepressants. Well, look, I mean, I, I get it. So many people are coming in with symptoms of depression and of anxiety. I mean, this is a, it is a, an, an epidemic in this country, right?

[B]

And even before clinical depression, you have exhaustion, you have hopelessness, you have people who are considered the quote, unquote, langu generation who, they just don't have a passion. They're feel lost, they're aimless, they don't know what they want.

[A]

In what ways is depression protective? You've talked about some sort of protective mechanisms, potentially of depression and anxiety, but is there a way to get to the root of those besides antidepressants, besides talk therapy? Why are those things not necessarily going to work? And, you know, the evidence on SSRIs versus many other interesting modalities is actually not looking so good for SSRIs. What's going on with this epidemic of depression and anxiety? And where does an understanding of trauma inform the way we possibly start to try and actually get people help?

[C]

I love this conversation because it really, again, kind of highlights the nature of the nervous system and what it does and what that looks like. When we are in a stress response, response biology, we are anxious. The sympathetic nervous system generates adrenaline. Adrenaline causes anxiety. It's supposed to, it's intended to. So the anxiety isn't bad. It's just, well, what are we doing with it? What we are designed to do with it is to take action, to move. We discharge all that adrenaline through the movement of our muscles. This is why even when we're completing a stress response, or maybe we're watching an animal complete a response because they do a much better job at this than we as humans do. They will tremble. Trembling is these fine motor fasciculations. And the fine motor fasciculations are discharging adrenaline. It's so powerful because we got to get that adrenaline out of our system to get out of the anxiety. But as I mentioned before, we can get to the point where there's so much adrenaline, our panic reaches a high point that it just causes the paralysis. And we reach that point where we don't see how we could take action. We don't see how we could do anything to make this stop. We don't see how we could make a difference by doing anything. And thus enters depression. Depression is just that. I don't see how anything that I could do could make a difference. So what's the point? What's the point of trying? What's the point of going out? What's the point? What's the point? And when we're in that trauma biology, because of the effect on our mitochondria, we don't have the energy. And so there's all this going at play. However, it's really important to bring in the neurochemistry into the equation. And the serotonin and the dopamine, the acetylcholine, the gaba, these are all neurochemicals intended to generate the different sensations and responses that we want to have in order to be in our best self, Aligned with our body's rhythms. And inflammation is going to disrupt the levels of these neurochemicals. More than 80% of our serotonin is made in our gut. Well, what if you have ibs? Oh, no. And this is where we get to this idea that trauma only begets more trauma. It's one of the saddest things in life. You didn't just get hit once, you're going to keep getting hit. Because now the inflammation that the trauma create is going to feed back and change your neurochemicals. They're going to create oxidative stress. They're going to do all of these other changes that further promote more and more trauma responses.

[A]

And in many cases, the emotional response will mirror that. As we are seeking high risk behaviors, we are seeking out partners that maybe cause some sort of turmoil, but don't really give us a sense of peace or safety, or we feel alive in a state of crisis. Right. We keep creating drama in relationships. We create breakups, we create fights. We have these kind of dramatic interactions even with friends. Those are ways that the emotional response is echoing, the cellular response.

[C]

Absolutely. And we look at this idea of, you know, the body is ultimately seeking safety. It's what we're seeking. We're seeking safety. And if we're always in danger, we're seeking relief from that danger. We're seeking safety. And what is it that actually makes a person feel safe. According to neuroscience, it is familiarity. Well, what if what is familiar to you is the drama, is the chaos, is the stress? Well, then that's where you will feel safe. You won't like it because you're always anxious and you're always stressed. But if you were to actually go to a yoga retreat where you just meditate, meditate and there's no drama, you would be so uncomfortable, you'd crawl out of your skin, you'd be so bored. Because that's not what's safe. What is safe to a person is what they know. It's the unknown that is unsafe. And so even a person who has felt depressed, they may actually have a part of them that doesn't feel safe to be more alive. Because what if I were actually more alive? What if I actually had more energy? Well, more might be expected from me. I might actually be expected to take that higher position in the office and manage other people. And I don't want that. I may be expected to be seen and be more on the stage or take on these other responsibilities. It's safer for me to stay depressed. It's safer for me to stay small, not be seen. Even though I will express that I don't like it. It's ultimately what feels safer than this other way of living where I'm actually more alive.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yes. And correct me if you have a different perspective, but part of that visualization is slowly introducing yourself to these ideas to make them less foreign, less scary, and sort of start to integrate something other than what is in what is only in your comfort zone.

[C]

Yes. And many of these forms of meditation are really just a way of escaping our present reality. And escape is one of the forms of how trauma lives in our body. We continue to find ways to escape, whether that's the alcohol in the evenings, whether that's the meditation. Just get me out of my reality, because I don't like my reality.

[A]

If we are diving into so many aspects of escapism and that's masquerading as I'm healing, I'm healing my trauma or I'm okay. What actually is the way to process trauma? Begin healing from trauma and adjusting to a new normal, if not by escaping?

[C]

Yes. This is the very question that I had to ask myself because I didn't know how to do this. And when I realized that I was carrying a lot of trauma, my first thought was, well, I guess I better go to therapy. And I did, and I went to therapy and got worse. So. And to your point, it's because I tried to do too much too fast. It was like, okay, I know I need to do this, so let's do this. And my body was like, oh, hell no. Are you kidding me? You want me to open up all of that pain? No, I need to protect you because you clearly don't know what you're doing. So it would put me back into fatigue and autoimmunity and rashes and migraines and depression and all kinds of stuff in order to protect me from doing more in therapy. So I have then looked at, well, then, what could I use as a measure for change? And it really is this idea of, how can I help myself or you be more present right here, right now. Because that's what needs to change. It's our ability to be present. Not to escape, not to distract, avoid stuff, numb. All of those are ways to not be present. And so I now started to teach my patients somatic exercises that would help them be present. Just come back to being present when they notice themselves in anxiety. Okay, what can you do right now to just come back and be like, okay, right here, right now, I'm creating the sensation of safe enough. I actually called it, maybe you'll enjoy this micro dosing safety. Because too Much safety. And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This doesn't feel safe. And I'm like, you're telling me it doesn't feel safe to feel safe? And they said yes, because feeling safe, relaxing means I'm vulnerable, I might get hurt. So that's why I realized I needed to micro dose safety. Allowing them one step at a time to start shifting their inner state to this idea of ventral vagal parasympathetic. I call it calm aliveness, where we're just doing moments at a time. We're not trying to do a whole day at a time or even a whole hour at a time. We're just taking one moment at a time throughout the day. One moment at a time. But it's starting to build those muscles, those neural pathways to be present, because those pathways haven't been built. The only pathways that have been built are the ones to escape, not to be present. So it's a muscle that has to be built and then reinforced. And as we do that now, they're able to be more and more and more present. And here's what I saw was one of the best ways for me to tell anyone's healing journey. Are they making progress? The real test came when something would happen in their life that was a change. Change is not something that a person who's carrying a lot of trauma is well equipped to deal with. Change means a triggering of all kinds of memories, all kinds of previous losses that they've never processed. It's a triggering back into something uncertain. I don't know if this change is going to be good, if it's going to be bad. I don't know what to do. Am I okay? It's the whole shebang.

[A]

It's that I order the same meal at every restaurant that I go to. Like, I have the meal that I order at this restaurant and I have the meal that I order at that restaurant. And I don't try new things. I'm just trying to justify my existence right now.

[C]

And what if one day both of those restaurants closed?

[A]

I don't eat ever again. That's what happens.

[C]

So this would be my test of, well, let's put your somatic skills to the practice. Let's see how much you have changed. And for me, I look back at one of my patterns that had been one of the strongest since childhood, which was saying goodbye. I hated saying goodbye. I hated closures. I would avoid them and then fall apart later all by myself. Because I didn't like to be emotional on other people. Because I'd been made fun of. And so goodbyes and closures were something that I could never be present to, certainly not emotionally. And then one day, a friend was dying, and I decided, I don't want him to die alone. And I watched myself show up and not need to distract myself with chores, busy myself with work. I could just be with him in the discomfort, knowing that these were his last days. And that was, for me, when I said, amy, this is working. You've been able to show such a dramatic change in your ability to be present and not use all those old coping mechanisms that you would have before. That is progress.

[A]

So what are some of the things that we can share with our audience that are even just a taste of some of the somatic tools that you use? Because also, I wanna be clear, you're not saying no one needs medication or therapy or doctors. Just put your hand on your heart and breathe deep. That's not what you're saying. When you treat patients, you're looking at functional components. You're looking at psychiatric components that might need addressing. You're addressing physiological things that are happening. I don't want people to feel like the biology of trauma is like, throw out everything and just breathe and be present. But can you give us an indication of some of the kinds of tools that you're giving people so that if someone is interested in pursuing a different road, they know what they're even heading towards?

[C]

Yeah. And to answer that question, let me start by saying the patterns that I see in people who have trauma are that when it comes to practitioners, they are either completely dependent on them, meaning, like, they see them as their hero and the one who's going to fix them, and they don't question anything, or they're the opposite extreme, they question everything and they don't trust anybody. There's not many people in the middle. And so, again, this is kind of the right. Like, the telltale signs of trauma is you're on the extremes. You're either on one extreme or the other. You're clinging on to other people as if they are the expert in your own body and they know you better than you know yourself, or you can't and won't trust anybody and won't do anything that they say. And when we look at how to bring this all together, then I'm always looking at it at the three levels, and there's always something to do at each level. And the more that I can integrate and have a person be working at the mind level, at the body level, and at the biology level, all at the same time, we see so much faster progress than if we're just trying to do the mind piece or just trying to do the biology piece. And, yes, biology means all kinds of tools. And sometimes that tool means a medication, because that's exactly what would be most helpful for their body at that time. But in working with my patients, and this was when I was now working only with addiction medicine patients, so patients that I was working with to help them detox off of alcohol, heroin, pain pills, anxiety pills, sleep pills, and talk about a nervous system being on edge, coming off of these dependencies. And they had all kinds of physical ailments because their nervous system was so on edge. Right? All of their ibs, their anxiety, their eczema, everything was coming out of this time because it's nervous system driven. So it's very expected, but it was a real time of fear for them. And that was when many people went back on their substances because they're like, if this is what life is like off of them, numb me back up. Let me go back to how things were. And so I realized that I needed very quickly to be able to help them shift their nervous system in order for them to have less of all of these physical symptoms that were surfacing. And I looked at, well, what would be the fastest way? If I only have a week, and I need to give them and show them a way that, no, you don't have to go back to your substance. This other thing will work. If I only have one week, what could I use? What would make the fastest difference? And it was. It was incredible. As a physician, as a medical physician, I'm realizing that the fastest way to shift these physical health symptoms driven by a nervous system dysregulation is somatic work. It made me mad. I spent how many thousands of dollars going through medical school to learn what medication to prescribe? And actually, the fastest intervention is somatic exercises. Are you kidding? So let me show you one of the ones that I would teach them, because these aren't your traditional somatic exercises. So let me teach you one of these. If you want to look around you and find a pillow or a sweater or a blanket or anything that you could just grab and put on your lap, it really doesn't matter what it is. It could even be a book.

[A]

I have a pillow.

[C]

You have a pillow, okay. So I want you to put it over your belly.

[A]

I'm cured. I feel better. That's it. I put the pillow on my belly, and I am cured.

[C]

Is it on your belly or on your lap?

[A]

Well, it was on my lap. Now it's shifted to my belly.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. And as you put it there, I want you to notice what. What is. How does your body like it best in terms of pressure? Do you like it pulling the pillow into you? Do you. Does it like, no pressure at all or in the middle, what feels best?

[A]

I'm kind of holding it so I feel it against me.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I have my fingers interlaced in front of the pillow.

[C]

What do you notice different inside of you?

[A]

Well, I can feel, like, my belly against the pillow.

[C]

Yeah. Is that a pleasant sensation or an unpleasant sensation?

[A]

I'd say it's neutral.

[C]

Neutral. Yeah. And how do you know that where you have your fingers and the pressure that you have is what your body likes and enjoys right now?

[A]

Oh, there's like a sense of sort of feeling settled that right there. Like, things are settled.

[C]

Tell me about that. How. How do you know that it feels settled?

[A]

Well, thanks for asking. I don't feel, like, any muscle tension.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I guess there's like a. A vague feeling of coziness.

[C]

Amazing. All by putting a pillow over your stomach. And look at how fast that happened.

[A]

Do I have to walk around with this pillow all the time?

[C]

That, my dear, is now up to you. That is your choice. Now you know what it feels like. This is why I have a weight, a weighted shawl at my desk at all times. Because sometimes in the day when I'm working, something will feel like it triggers me or my body just gets a little anxious. And I'll just be able to put that on my belly and be able to settle my system back down. And then I can focus again. Then I can come from a place of, everything's okay, I'm okay. And it's a very different response than if I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to be okay. Is, like, all of that amped up. So this was what I needed to be able to help my patients realize that they didn't need to reach for the bottle. They could reach for a pillow, put it over their stomach and notice what does it feel like to feel that settling? And then I would see, do you still feel that drive for the bottle? Well, now it's reduced to just. Well, it would be nice. I miss it. Yeah, I can understand that. But it's no longer that I have to have this to survive this, because my inner world is getting amped up, and the only way I know to calm that down is with alcohol.

[A]

So can you explain now on a sort of like psycho clinical level what is actually happening? Like on a more practical level, when you ask me to do that, you're asking me to shift my focus, right?

[C]

No, no, no, no. It works whether you focus it on. On it or not. And the reason is, is this is the anatomy of our body. So the anatomy tells us that our stomach, especially the upper stomach, not just. That's why I didn't want you to have it on your lap. I'm like, no, it needs to be up over your stomach. Because our stomach is actually the most area that we have. If you think about our heart being precious to our survival, absolutely. But look at it like it's encased with bones. You're not going to access that heart very easily. Same with our lungs. It's got all of these ribs and bones to protect it. But our stomach, it doesn't have protection. And that's why a lot of people, when they are living with these trauma fears in the background, their stomach muscles are always bracing, trying to protect itself, trying to protect us. It's going to happen unconsciously. And so I know that if I can bring in something that allows my stomach to say, oh, thank God, something else is protecting me right now, I can let down and relax a little bit.

[A]

Is this what many people would then call a gut feeling? And is this why people have intuitive abilities when they feel something in their gut? I don't feel much in my gut at all. We're sort of cut off at the gut, you know, over here. And then when you talk to people like Jonathan who have intuitive abilities and, you know, have worked in energy realms, it's like, oh, I just feel it. I can sense it. And I'm like, what's that? Like, can you talk about a gut feeling?

[C]

A gut feeling. The scientific term for that is interoception. Interoception ception, meaning perception intro, meaning the my insides like my internal organs. And this is true whether we're talking about that gut feeling or whether we're talking about I can sense when I'm thirsty, when I'm hungry, and not have to wait until it's so late that now I have to eat right now because I. I missed those messages. I'm not as connected to those signals from my body that it tries to give me a gut feeling. Is the nervous system trying to give us a message, Ooh, this feels a little off. And we get that little twist or maybe the knot in our stomach. These are messages from our nervous system that tells us that they're getting messages of danger and it wants us to do something about it. But again, so many of us by default are not doing something about it. We are avoiding it, we're numbing it, we're saying, no, no, no, I'm too busy. No, no, you don't understand. This person loves me. They would never hurt me. Like, we override those messages all the time. And eventually it stops giving us those messages because we're not listening. And then it really is running on its own, operating on its own, and you end up in a situation like me where the only way that I listened to my body was when it could not get out of bed one day and it had developed such severe fatigue, the autoimmunity. I was on two mood medications for anxiety, depression, burnout, because I just, I wasn't connected. I was not connected with my interoception and the messages of danger coming from my nervous system. And at the same time, I want to balance that with this idea that we talked about earlier where when we still have unresolved trauma, we see danger where there is no danger. So we can't always trust our gut intuition at the beginning. But trauma work actually makes our intuition better because we're able to take off those perceptive glasses and see reality.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Wandering Jews, an open door media brand.

[A]

If you've ever found yourself feeling like you have more questions than answers, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bitton and Noam Weissman, dig into the biggest questions about life through a Jewish lens. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, learn something new, and probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Nuhom tackled the tough topic like anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the future of religion with guests like Bret Stephens, Michael Rapoport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this past month, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they've been celebrating some of the Jewish lives and institutions that have shaped American life, from food to music and comedy. Thoughtful, joyful, and always honest. That's Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam, a production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure to hit subscribe. Check out Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam podcast and subscribe at Unpacked Bio nmx Book a loved by guest property with vrbo. And you get a top rated vacation

[B]

rental that's loved for all the right reasons.

[C]

Ugh, I love my VRBO for the location.

[B]

Good reason.

[A]

Oh, and for the pool. Cause pools are cool.

[B]

I feel the love book a VRBO that's loved by guests.

[A]

If, you know, you vrbove. I'm processing this and thinking. Thinking about all the opportunities we have to hear messages that in many cases we're not tuned into hearing right. And in many other cases, we've piled so many other things on top of that ability to hear that we just like, I can't hear anymore. You know? And it's funny because our somatic example is, you know, the first time Jonathan, like, saw the sheets that I had, he's like, these are made of burlap. Like, you're sleeping on, like, like, literally like a. A wool pad, you know? And I was like, I don't know, it's fine. You know, and like, it never. Like, it. It didn't occur to me. The only time I ever thought about it is when I had kids. I was like, oh, this is really soft. I knew it would feel good to a newborn to wear X, Y or Z. But I'm. Jonathan was like, you're sleeping on sandpaper. Like, what is happening? And it's funny because I just, like, I don't think about it the same way. I don't think about the sensation of my clothing on my body right now. Right. Like, my brain is. Like my thalamus is working. Over time, it's like, we will filter out any shit that's not relevant, including the sandpaper that we're sleeping on. Because are we going to be attacked in the middle of the night by a bear? That's more important.

[B]

No, the bear will be afraid of the sandpaper.

[C]

Very logical. The bear will smell the burlap and want nothing to do with it.

[B]

The bear will, like, I will be more comfortable just laying in the street.

[C]

I'm not sure that that's the kind of human being that I would want to eat. There are some ones that she don't burlap.

[A]

Oh, you just made Jonathan laugh so hard.

[B]

That's the best line so far.

[A]

And that's why she's single. Meaning me. I don't know about anybody else.

[C]

No, it's because all of the men have these head traumas that they're, you know, they're.

[A]

They're all those athletic men. I better not date any athletic women.

[C]

Can't find good, good men anymore. Or women.

[B]

There are so many other things I want to talk to you about. But a lot of them have been filtered through this conversation. Like I'm going to go back and re listen to this conversation and I'm going to reserve the right to circle back with you because we brought up so many topics that need expanding.

[A]

This is your bedtime story. You're going to listen to this podcast every night before bed.

[C]

Not on the burlap sheets though. Not on the burlap sheets.

[B]

You said something in the first part of this podcast that you don't hear many medical doctors talk about, which is, have you lost your passion for life?

[A]

Yes. Oh, you weren't asking me.

[B]

I wasn't asking you. And you spoke about it when you were talking about the indicator that you use when people, what's the first thing that they think when they first wake up in the morning and have they lost their passion for life? It makes a big assumption that people should have a passion for life. Right? Like that's not a medical condition. We have a medical condition for depression and anxiety. Those are in the dsm. Talk to us about your belief. If everyone should have a passion for life. I mean, I'm biased. I believe that we're all here and we all have some unique gift or ability to have.

[A]

But do you mean a passion for living or do you mean like, what's my passion in life?

[B]

Open ended question. I'm curious your medical perspective about that term and what you feel people either should be connected to or aren't.

[C]

What I have come to understand about the nervous system and then its larger relationship with the world and others, spiritualism, all of that, is that we are intended to have the energy to find what makes us most happy. And that is having a purpose in life. My purpose in life is building these beautiful gardens that I can go and enjoy or invite other people to come and enjoy. It doesn't have to be a specific thing and it can be very different for different people. But there's this idea that we're designed to find and create meaning for our life, which is having purpose. I know why I get up every day. It energizes me. I know that I bring value to the world. But so many people don't have the energy to have the clarity to figure out their purpose, let alone live it out.

[B]

And when you say energy, you're talking about the biological energy of their system to give them a much enough emotional energy to have that.

[C]

Exactly. And that is why then not having a purpose in life is a sign that your body's in that Trauma biology state, it's in the depressed state. And by depressed I mean your energy is depressed. Because if you had the energy, this is what your nervous system would do naturally. You wouldn't have to plan it out, you wouldn't have to make a decision about creating a beautiful, meaningful life for yourself. It just would happen. And so this is the silent impact of trauma on people's lives is that it drains their energy to a degree that they may not call it depression yet, they may not call it burnout yet, but they haven't even had the energy to have the clarity on what their purpose is. Having clarity takes energy. But even if you have that clarity of what your purpose would be, you don't have the energy to live it out. This is where we come back to this idea of our rhythms, our cortisol. We're intended to have time every day where that is what we do. We are working towards our purpose and then we rest. It's the combination of stress and rest that leads to growth. But we're not stressing the right way and we're definitely not resting the right way. And so there's the lack of growth and the lack of purpose.

[B]

Having clarity takes energy.

[C]

Yes, we know this from the science on entropy, that without the input of energy, systems fall apart. To maintain systems, to maintain order. To maintain order. This is from Einstein, this, I mean this, these are, these are the science principles to maintain order, cleanliness, clarity. It takes an investment of energy.

[B]

The term that was introduced to me, I don't know, many, many years ago, was this idea of the brain needing white space, which is basically downtime in order to wander, to process, to solve all those problems that we can't figure out that aren't immediately evident to us. You know, in, when I was running a startup, if I didn't have time to be like, what for my brain basically to work out all those interactions and signals that I had throughout the day in back to back meetings, then there would be a backlog and like, it's like the interactions weren't drained out of the system to make room for the new ones. And I see people, you know, I think about my son who will fill every moment of the day when he's not on the tennis court with social media or flipping and consuming and analyzing videos. And I'm like, if your brain doesn't ever slow down, how do you refill the energy so that you can then just take on the next day or, or have. And so I go back to like, I think about this idea of Clarity. I love the concept that clarity will unfold naturally. Like we don't have to take a 12 step class to figure out our life's purpose because we can move through the world and be shown signs. And this kind of brings me back to the other thing you talked about, which is the power of presence. And I loved your example of being with a friend who is passing away. But can you talk a little bit about the power of presence to also navigate our life on the small things every day that will lead us to being able to feel more clear about our presence, to find the things that we enjoy, and then to be guided without sort of these massive crises that most people find themselves in where they hit a wall and you're like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to make a living. I don't know who to date, I don't know where to live. And then all of a sudden it feels way too, too overwhelming to sort out.

[C]

I didn't realize how not present I was in my life in the daily things. I didn't realize how much I was doing on autopilot. And when I started doing these practices myself, I realized that I was never present. I was either ruminating about something that had happened in the past or worried about something in the future, but I was not actually present for what I was doing. Now, in all fairness, that had allowed me to do quite well in medical school and all of these other life responsibilities where you have to be able to multitask, you have to be able to be disconnected from your body, that you don't feel your body's needs because you got to keep pushing on, you got to keep learning more. But at this point I realized I want something different. And so I started practicing. No, when I'm choosing my clothes, I'm going to choose my clothes. I'm not going to be on autopilot when I go to make my morning tea or what. Whatever it is I'm doing, I am now going to be fully present for that thing. It drove me crazy because I felt like I had gone from, you know, super fast to slowly doing everything. But slowly I started to see these changes where I actually realized I was fully present. I was staying engaged in my body. I wasn't leaving my body and only living in my head like I was used to. And it allowed me to be a very different person with others because I was able to be present for myself.

[A]

Can you explain what your nervous system is experiencing when you are being present in this way? What's actually happening.

[C]

What's actually happening in the nervous system is a true sense of safety. And the reason for that is when you think about the nervous system's job to keep you alive, it needs to know, is there danger right here or not? And when I am right here, and I've been able to orient to my space and I'm fully present, I know, and I feel that I am safe right here, right now.

[A]

Because a nervous system that's agitated would be constantly scanning, constantly doing, receiving input. Adrenaline is going.

[B]

Because if I do something, then I'm doing something great, and I can feel good about myself. And I know that I'm taking care of myself because this thing is getting done, and I'm getting a little hit of dopamine or adrenaline or I'm.

[A]

I'm substituting productivity for true safety. Safety.

[C]

And I'm a perfectionist. And I don't feel that I will be loved if I don't get this thing perfect. So I will obsess over it. There's so much that goes on in our unconscious that we have been completely unaware of. That's what I mean by autopilot. And when I started to become more present, I realized, like, why, why? Why am I obsessing over this? What is this really about, Amy? Oh, it's really about this. And so, I mean, it just opened the veil for me to see all of these subconscious reasons that would have been driving my stimulation and my hustle and bustle that I was doing before.

[B]

Can people still be highly productive without moving through the world in a trauma response way?

[C]

I want to say that people can be more productive because I see the busyness as being on the hamster wheel. You're doing a lot, but you're not getting very far. And what you're doing is sometimes making messes because you're not fully present. And then you have to take the time to clean up those messages. What if you could get off the hamster wheel so that when you ran, you were actually running down the track and not just in a circle? And that's what happens when you make this shift. Your productivity is actually translated into real forward movement in your life. So I am way more productive now than I used to be. I'm less rushed, but I'm more productive.

[B]

And I want to talk a little bit about how presence fuels into this. The more we're present, the more clear we are on the steps we need to take, which allow us to get off the hamster wheel. So your actions are more targeted towards where you want to go.

[C]

Which is the beautiful thing for me because this whole conversation has really been, how do we be more strategic? How do we be more deliberate and intentional, not just throwing things and trying to solve the problem. Oh, I feel depressed. Well, take this medication, go on this diet, go talk to this person. I don't know, do something. But what if we actually understood what's happening where a person is stuck and what would be the best deliberate leverage to pull that would make the biggest difference? And so it really is not about doing more, it's about doing smarter. Because we have more of the science of what is actually driving this, that we can target our interventions to that. And sometimes it's a very small intervention, but small hinges move big doors.

[B]

Something that was spoken about when we spoke to Gabor Mate, and I think really the conversation around it expanded when he released his book was the idea of emotional patterns of disease. And he talked about people with. It's not just that trauma primes the system to have certain diseases, but he talked about the potential for a specific type of emotional pattern for autoimmune diseases, a certain type of pattern for ms, a certain type of pattern for cancer. Have you seen what? Well, I guess, one, do you believe in that? And two, have you seen emotional patterns in certain disease states?

[C]

So I have seen these emotional patterns in certain disease conditions. And one of the most obvious is autoimmunity. It's very interesting to me to see that autoimmunity really targets the high functioning women. And we're talking about women who run businesses, who are in corporate, they have a lot of responsibility, they are showing up in a big way in the world, and then they have this autoimmunity

[A]

just kicks you right in the keister.

[C]

Yes. I actually start my book in chapter one with the story of Elena. Elena had a car accident and one year later she was diagnosed with autoimmunity lupus. For her, it came out of the blue. And we were able to see that it actually didn't come out of the blue. And what were those things that had happened in her life 20 years earlier that had started this biology that then finally surfaced after a car accident? But so much goes back to our early years, and I want to emphasize one's early attachment. Many people will think, well, no, I don't have any attachment issues. And yet I look at it in terms of attachment pain. What was a pain that you experienced? Was it a pain of not being heard? A pain of not being seen? A pain of not being held enough? There are Certain developmental sequences for what we need. And if we don't get what we need at that time, we will have one of these attachment pains. Autoimmunity is associated with not being held enough. It actually forms a pattern in the nervous system in somatic experiencing. We call that pattern the global high intensity activation. It can come from birth trauma, it can come from being in the nicu. It can come from these early experiences where you were not held enough because you had to have a life saving measure, or maybe you were colicky, or maybe your parents were busy and they had to go back to work and put you in daycare. And it just was a shock to your system because you didn't know these people and you were so young. So these attachment pains form so much of these emotional patterns that then develop, especially in autoimmunity. But I'm also seeing them in IBS and cancers where it's this common theme of I didn't know that I was going to be okay and I had to adapt in order to get through. There are many people with autoimmunity who had an alcoholic parent or a parent with another substance use or a mental health condition where it made them unstable and the child became the parent. That is the formation of a biology of trauma that becomes autoimmunity later on. I think of Kelsey, who developed Hashimoto's thyroid in her early 20s. By the time she's going off to college, she already has this. And it's also not a coincidence, I think that it really targets the thyroid which is in your neck. And she never had the voice to be able to say something to her mother. She was the invisible one. The invisible, but the responsible one. Having to actually save her and her brother from when her mother would get into car accidents because she was driving a little drunk.

[A]

Sorry. Graves disease, 23 years old, right here. One thing that I do want to make sure that we let you speak to, where is resilience in your sort of model of treatment and understanding of trauma? Because over 50% of people, I think, is the current statistic, you know, use daycare. Right. Infants are frequently put in daycare now. It's the way that most people can just survive to pay rent. You know, so many families are single income families. Many families have someone on disability or who can't work. And sometimes it's the only way, like, are we setting ourselves up, you know, to sort of frame an entire nation. Right. Of traumatized individuals? Where is the room for resiliency both on a cellular level and on, you know, A larger kind of emotional level.

[C]

Resiliency is the gift that we give ourselves when we know how to work with our nervous system and our body. And when we see that we are misaligning with what we are naturally designed to do, we are disrupting our resiliency. One of the biggest lies that we have been told, our children are resilient. They are not. They developed the Graves disease at age 23. How is that resilience? Yes, they survive their childhood. That's how you're defining resilient. Yes, our kids are resilient. But if you're defining resilience as they're not left with a mark, they're not still living with the impact, well, then no, kids are not resilient. And when we look at everything again, we have to look at everything that's involved, the social systems, the health care system, the daycare system, everything, everything goes into that equation. For how safe am I or how much danger am I in? And for a small child, it is not their natural design to be taken from their safe parent and put into daycare. But what if that is the best that a parent can do? Well, let's shame that parent. That is for sure the best solution and the best for that child. Absolutely not. I would rather have a parent put their child in a daycare and pick them up with a happy heart, with an open heart, with, with the biggest hug, because now we can spend the next several hours of the evening together then to pick up their child and feel ashamed, feel embarrassed, because that's what's going to be communicated with the child. And the child always assuming that the world revolves around them. They're going to think, look at that. My parent doesn't even want to be picking me up from daycare. I'm not loved, I'm not wanted, I'm not seen. And it makes this situation worse. So we're working in a toxic world. We're working with a toxic environment. There's no way around it. So it's just being able to see then where can I come in? And I can I can I do my best, can I do my best to be, have the, the calm interstate myself? And how can I help others around me have that as well so that I can inspire that in them so that we can do the best given the toxic world that we live in.

[B]

And I would just even adjust from toxic world to a world that is going to increase inflammation that we have to deal with if we just bring it back to, for me anyway, the biological level, I'M like, if I think that my body is going to have these responses, then how do I mitigate against that to decrease the inflammation? And we know it can be food, it can be exercise, obviously somatic work. Can you touch on why women are so much more likely to have autoimmune disease than men?

[A]

Sorry, I'm laughing because if you were a woman, you would know, you would know what it's like.

[C]

I think she does not feel understood right now.

[A]

Why do we have to explain it?

[C]

Just look at the world. I will go back and I will, I will first say that, you know, speaking of the inflammation, knowing the world that we live in, that again, given the importance of the nervous system state, that is the most important work of anyone every single day of their life, their nervous system state. Not did they exercise and go to the gym, not did they do their visionary planning. It's the state of their nervous system that is the most important. So given inflammation, when that parent picks up their child from daycare, knowing the stress that it is on their child to be in daycare, I would love for them to have an evening dinner that consists of a lot of broccoli to reduce that oxidative stress and that inflammation. Knowing the impact of trauma at the cellular level and how I want to help their body at their biology level build their resilience and not build up all of this oxidative stress. But, but if they are going to serve that broccoli with a sour attitude,

[B]

you better eat this.

[C]

Exactly. I would rather them serve the most gluten filled, sugar filled cake but with love than a plate full of broccoli with shame.

[B]

Plateful of broccoli with shame. Good memoir title.

[A]

Plate full of broccoli I like, but I think also the. I think it's important to point out that. And Gabor Mate talks about this in the Myth of Normal. A tremendous amount of emotional and physical labor does fall on women. And part of that is evolutionary complexity that stretches back long before we had tables, chairs, cars, horses and things that go. This is sort of the, the anatomy in many cases. You know, Freud was wrong about many things. But biology is a certain aspect of destiny in that if you are the one who has to get pregnant, if you are the one who keeps the baby alive as a mammal, right. And that is the, the basis of your nutritive needs, you know, your caloric needs, your emotional needs, you typically, as a human primate were surrounded by a group of females who were helping you share this labor. And I'll be honest, you didn't have to deal with men and trying to please them and think about what they need because they hung out with dudes and they went out hunting. And you and the men with poor vision would, you know, make baskets and talk about feelings. And if you didn't feel well, someone else nursed your kid. And if you needed something emotionally, it was carried by a group of primates. And the system that we live in has had men enter the birthing world, first of all. So women have been removed from providing support for other women, which historically is what we did. And there's been a medicalization of the female experience. And also we've been given all these amazing advances. We can go to space, we can be doctors, we can do all these things. And yet, even when women are the primary breadwinners, they still, statistically speaking, bear the childbearing costs, the cooking costs, costs, the cleaning costs emotionally. And on top of that, and I'm a, you know, a lover of equal rights. We're also told you should look like you did when you were 25, when you're 35, 45, 55, and 65. And we're living in a society that's not really supporting the health of women and families. Meaning we don't have a system that says, be home with your kid and we'll pay your salary. There are some countries that do it, but we're told, have a baby and then get back to work. And you need to be the CEO and don't act too much like a man. I mean, I'm sorry. Now I'm just doing like the monologue from Barbie. But then we wonder why women get autoimmune conditions. It's cause we're so tired. We don't want to know what you want for dinner,

[C]

and we don't want

[A]

to have sex unless we want to have sex. And then we have sex, and it's like, I don't want to have sex. And then you don't have an orgasm. You have to fake it. It's exhausting. And then we get diagnosed with an autoimmune condition, and everybody's like, why did this happen to me? I don't know. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Dr. Amy.

[C]

It sounds like you kind of do, and that's okay. I, you know, kind of listening to you is like listening to all of my patients. No, like, this is what they say. And so what I find so helpful is to look at the kinds of things, questions that we ask, because the kinds of questions that we ask are not the kinds of questions that men ask. We ask, what's wrong with me that I can't do this all? And men ask, what's the problem with you that you're holding me back? Women ask, am I going to be okay? Men are like, I don't care if I'm going to be okay. Let's go bowling and have a beer. It's just. It's a completely different process. It's a completely different questions. And the questions that women ask are much more internal around like, what's wrong with me that I can't look like I'm 25? What's wrong with me that I can't hold this all together? What's wrong with me that I can't juggle all of this and still have a smile on my face and put dinner on the table? What's wrong with me? And men don't ask those questions.

[B]

No, we complain that the system is broken and that other people's expectations are wrong. And f everyone else, there you go.

[C]

And that's why they don't get autoimmunity as much, because autoimmunity is an internal. An internal attack. Whereas when we can take that anger and we're like, no, what's wrong with the world? What's wrong with the system? What's wrong with you? And that anger goes outward. It doesn't create autoimmunity. It's the anger turned inward, anger towards myself or even anger towards someone else, but I can't express it because I would compromise the relationship. So let me turn that anger towards myself, and I'll even hate myself for not being able to speak up for myself.

[A]

And to use another flashy word that we often try and break down more codependency will kill you. What you just described, I care more about what you think and what you feel than what I'm experiencing. That's the definition of codependency. And that's the story that will kill you eventually in one way or another, emotionally, psychically, spiritually, and in some cases, physically.

[C]

So some women then think that the solution is to be more like men. And they practice it, right? Like they practice saying, like, what's wrong with you? And they go around and they. And they. And they start trying to lash out in anger, not realizing that, no, women are designed to be different. It's not turning that anger inwards. It's not turning that anger outwards. It's a completely different way of living. And that's what we want to find so that we can be in our authentic self. Because when we are living as our authentic self, there is no autoimmunity. And every person that I know who's reversed their autoimmunity got to that point where they were living their authentic life.

[A]

Reversing autoimmunity. For those of us who are given an autoimmune diagnosis or two, it's a weird flex. You know, we're told that our body just doesn't work and it's attacking itself. And here are the medications that you take to make it stop attacking itself. And if you stop taking these pills, it's gonna go right back to doing what it's doing. What a radical notion that we could reverse autoimmunity not just by thinking differently, but by training ourselves to experience their cellular life differently.

[B]

I want to hear more about people who have reversed autoimmune disease.

[C]

Yeah, what do you want to know?

[B]

Well, I just want. I. I almost want you to just like start from that. You've seen it. Because, you know, I think people need to hear the connection between aligning with yourself, aligning with your purpose. You know, it's. I believe in that, but I'm not a doctor. I don't have the biology. It's. And when it comes for me it sounds, oh, super hippie or you've no experience in this, but you know, you can feel someone who is energetically off, who's trying to be someone they're not. And you can feel someone who shows up as exactly who they are. Can you talk more from your perspective in a non hippie fashion?

[C]

So if the essence of autoimmunity is I'm attacking myself because I don't even like myself, then that is going to be part of the process for reversing autoimmunity. Just like every other form of biology of trauma, it's going to need all three levels of repair. Mind, body and biology. We can't cheat any of those. We have to address each of those and then it is possible. I remember sitting in the rheumatologist's office and I'm staring at this piece of paper with my test results. A N a antinuclear antibody, 1 in 640 titers. And I was like, how, how did this happen? What's wrong with me? Why is this happening to me? Those are questions of autoimmunity, by the way. Why is this happening to me is a question of autoimmunity. And I asked the rheumatologist what do I need to do to not develop a full blown diagnosis. His answer? Of course, nothing you can do. It's just going to happen. It's just a matter of time. So that's when I went and I found functional medicine. I started my trauma work. I was determined for that to not be my life. What I've been able to do is get off all thyroid support, all autoimmune support, and my numbers are completely healthy in the normal range Now. I don't have any symptoms of autoimmunity. So for me, when I talk about reversing autoimmunity, that's what I mean, where symptom free and your levels are normal. And this has now happened in many people who've come to my program because this is what is possible. When we stop seeing ourselves as the problem, that's the mind level. When we stop seeing ourselves as the problem, then when we work with our body and the stored trauma that it holds and be able to complete those responses that are still being held by our body. And then we do the biology level where we're addressing the oxidative stress, the toxins, the leaky gut, all of these aspects that are involved with autoimmunity. It is very reversible, which gives me so much hope that even after a diagnosis, a person can reverse the impact of trauma on their body. It is not a life sentence.

[A]

Can you speak to what happens in perimenopause and in menopause to someone who has trauma, especially if they don't know it? What does that look like?

[C]

Menopause is intended to be this amazingly beautiful period of life for a woman where she can shed that phase of her life where her body's in reproduction mode and really now just focus on making and living out her best purpose. It's what it's intended to be. What actually happens, though, is that because our body's been holding trauma, our hormones are already imbalanced. There's high cortisol, often, not always, but often the adrenaline is still driving that cortisol. And that cortisol is stealing the other hormones. That there's less estrogen, there's less progesterone, they're imbalanced. And so then we come into this phase of life where it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be something that is aligned with our body's rhythms. And it's smooth and it's beautiful. It's a beautiful opening up into the best years of our life. But because we're coming into it already off balance, then these changes are not smooth. It's like being on a Bumpy roller coaster where it's like constantly jolting you. And it is not the opening up into our purpose that it was intended to be. But the beautiful thing, though, is that because of these hormonal shifts that happen in perimenopause, it is actually the best time for a woman to do trauma work because it will surface traumas that have been stuffed pretty deep. It will open up things that we didn't realize that our body was storing. Now, one option is to stuff it right back down, or another option is to get curious and say, if my body's bringing it up, it must be ready for me to look at it. Let me work with my body, let me be friends with my body, let me not ignore these messages from my body, but actually establish a friendship, a relationship.

[A]

The reason this feels so incredibly powerful to hear is I can't tell you the number of friends of mine who have either endometriosis or pcos. And I don't need to tell you about the adverse childhood events that those women experienced. But when women show up to a doctor as a teenager with this kind of crippling pain and this kind of abnormal bleeding, what do they do? They put you on the pillow, they put you on the pill, which leads to its own complexity in terms of emotional reactions and the things that happen to your body and your chemistry, which we were told doesn't make a difference, right? And then they throw whatever the current, you know, menopause medication is that's approved for teenagers, they throw that at you, and then they put you on an antidepressant. Like, this is the train that you go down. And no one ever. The only, the first time I ever heard about lady problems being associated with anything adverse was when we first started talking about rape education when I was in college, and it was a dirty word to even talk about rape. It was like, take back the night, right? But that's the first time that I heard that women who have experienced rape may later develop other problems. And I was like, oh, wait, and I'm studying neuroscience, right? And we weren't even talking about this. But now that I look at the research, the research is there. So you're looking at pcos, you're looking at endometriosis. And then to me, menopause is. It's just a later extension, right, of a hormonal message that your body's trying to give you that's saying, guess what? Whatever you thought you could medicate, distract from, fill the God shaped hole of your pain with it's Gonna visit you again, and you're gonna get that opportunity again. So that's where we can look at that phase of life as a potential opening to say it's not just about what medication they're gonna put you on or you need to leave him or her or whoever. But is this the time in your life when you're actually gonna show up? And guess what the answer is. Do less. Get off your phone, learn to meditate, do some somatic work, and actually find a doctor who believes your symptoms, believes your experience, and also read the Biology of trauma. And your podcast is fantastic. Every episode is like a different little sliver of this prism of the experience of trauma. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Amy. Where can people find out more about you and the incredible work you do?

[C]

Well, first of all, thank you for the work that you do in the world.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

It is incredible to see how you have showed up and the impact that you're having on people's lives for the better. Thank you. My website is biologyoftrauma.com so that is where they can find the book, the podcast, the programs, and more information about me.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you so much. We really cannot thank you enough.

[C]

It's been a pleasure.

[A]

I agreed with, like, 99% of everything she's. I literally, I agree to so many things. I feel like she. It's not that. I mean, I don't know the things she knows. I loved this conversation so much. The only thing I took issue with, and I didn't want to bother her about it, but I want to bother you about it. My favorite drug is distraction through work.

[B]

You're so good at it.

[A]

I'm so productive when I'm stressed. So productive. And she said. And what I believe when she said that you can be even more productive than you ever imagined if you're living your best life being present all these things. She's got a different idea for my life than I do. Meaning I'm still limited by thinking I need to achieve all the things that I want to achieve and do all the things and cross them off the list. But I remember when I was. When I first started this YouTube channel, which you may be watching right now. I started it with my friend Emmanuel, Emmanuel Shalev. He works at Aleph Beta right now. And Emu said whenever I had a huge emotional relationship upset, he knew that we would get the best content because I was super focused. I just wanted to, like, work, write. He would be like, write these six scripts. I would have them done in, like, a day. Because he said he knew that that emo. And what I realize now, it's not so much that the stress was powering me. It was what the work was doing for me to distract me from the pain and stress that was leading to what I call productivity.

[B]

I think it takes a really, really, really big change of perspective to go from being fueled by distraction to being fueled by inspiration or some larger connection to a consciousness system. And you could say, well, if I'm happy, I never want to sit down for the number of hours that I otherwise would when I'm distracted and write that many scripts. So you're like, I'll never have the same output.

[A]

But, I mean, every. Every artist says that, right? Like, they do the best writing when they're in pain.

[B]

The change of perception, change of perspective could be that the one or two scripts that you write from inspiration may have a different frequency to them, a different resonance. They may go from getting a million views to getting 8 million views. You don't know that, though.

[A]

Have you ever read Elizabeth Barrett Browning? It's so beautiful because there's pain in it. And if you've read Edgar Allan Poe, like, he died alcoholic in the street with, like, a knock on his head, like, he wrote Beauty in Darkness. That's just.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

I'm not saying you have to be depressed or alcoholic to create good work, but there's a different quality of melancholy that you resonate at 100%.

[B]

But there's also. There's also the inspiration.

[A]

That's. But that's why people are, like, afraid to, like. I mean, it used to be, like, I'm afraid to go on medication. I still want to be myself. Like, you know, I think it's a different conversation now, but I think a lot of that is, like, I don't know, who am I? You know, am I this artistic, creative person? And, like, I'm super productive, and I stay up late and I smoke my cigarettes and I drink my coffee. Like, that's my vibe, you know?

[B]

Rumi reached millions and millions of people. He was an inspirational part.

[A]

If we're all Sufis, we could maybe, like, achieve. I mean, Rumi was an enlightened, mystical being.

[B]

And if we weren't also traumatized and inflamed on a cellular level, she be my zadie.

[A]

But it's like, yes, you're right. If we were all living in this, like, state of spiritual grace.

[B]

Yeah, I don't even think it's spiritual grace. I think it's a level of roomy.

[A]

We can't just be like, oh, Rumi,

[B]

that's this is R U M I that we're talking about that he's just the one example that comes to mind. Most artists are fueled by depression and anxiety and, you know, working out their demons. I think that goes to the state of the world that we're in. But I don't think that is necessarily the only paradigm. And I think we are moving into a place knowing more about our biology, knowing more about what makes us safe. And you know, like I joke that I was fueled by sunlight and the Lord without coffee. I do think there is another fuel source for creativity. And you know, I struggle too. I don't know that you can be a super productive and very high achieving person without putting the hours in right. Like when you're, I mean, I'm just

[A]

thinking about what you're like before coffee. No one's getting anything done.

[B]

Well, I, I'm functioning differently, but I don't use coffee first thing in the morning. I don't wake up and be like, I feel like junk, I need to caffeinate. I actually use it several hours after. And I usually use it when I'm sitting down to work and getting myself going. And I know that when I wake up first thing in the morning, I don't have to be moving a million miles an hour. I don't have to be on a podcast, I don't have to be writing and having a stream of ideas. So I liked what she said about using it strategically well.

[A]

And I think also, well, sometimes if you are in a state of addiction to caffeine or really any substance, what will happen is that you experience symptoms that can only be satisfied by consuming that substance. That's the definition of addiction.

[B]

You love a definition.

[A]

And withdrawal is the notion that you will experience these symptoms until you have that substance. So perhaps if you were in a state of not being, let's say, or feeling like you're addicted to it, then I could see using it topically as it were, which, you know, you could say the same of alcohol, you could say the same of weed. You know, it's different if you are a person who has an addiction and like, I can only be okay when I insert this substance into my body versus I am inserting this substance. Why am I saying inserting? It's a weird thing to say. I'm only, I'm only taking this.

[B]

How are you taking the substance?

[A]

Coffee suppository. People do it. Part of it on Yom Kippur,

[B]

took a dark Turn.

[A]

I'm only taking in this substance because I enjoy the effects in a way that is non, you know, dependent. And, you know, we could also entitle this as an episode. We take away all your fun or

[B]

we're gonna microdose you some safety.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Increase your intuition and presence and you're going to be able to navigate your life more clearly, more easily. Get to your destination faster, because you're not going to go on these detours emotionally. Emotionally. Think about how exhausted you were when you were on your emotional detours, using work as your coping mechanism.

[A]

This is my emotional detour. That's what we almost called the podcast. Welcome to Mayim Bialik's Emotional detour.

[B]

One thing Dr. Amy spoke about was the emotional response. Echoing our cellular response. We think, oh, I gotta fix my emotions. But what if our emotions are actually coming from our cellular biology? And I actually want to take one additional step in that circle.

[A]

I mean, that in and of itself deserves a little bit of love. That's like, very Bruce Liptony of like, guess what? What's happening in your cell? It matters. It has an impact. You can shift it and it's reflecting, like. And I don't know if it's necessarily. I don't want it to be like, oh, the cell is an analog of your behavior or your behavior is an analog of the cell. But.

[B]

But it's creating the condition by which the cell is functioning in it.

[A]

The words that you Look. The English language only has so many words. And the words that you use to describe what a cell looks. Looks like when it's healthy are the same words that you would use to describe a person when they're healthy. And I'm speaking objectively. And the words that you would use to describe a cell that's under stress are the same words that you would use to describe a person that's under stress and the same words you use to describe a cell that is experiencing trauma.

[B]

And what we mean by that is prolonged stress that makes it not function the way it otherwise would correct.

[A]

Prolonged stress that leads the cell to start compensating. Compensating for what is happening because of the prolonged stress. Those are the same words that you use to describe the behaviors that that person will exhibit. You are your cell. You are a macrocosm of the cell. And, you know, sorry, I'll stop there.

[B]

So I agree with everything, and I think this is.

[A]

And I'm not, sorry.

[B]

Such an important point. I mean, if you were not having an autoimmune condition, you would say, not only am I not sorry, but why isn't there more space for me to continue that conversation? Emotional response echoing our cellular response. Now add the narratives that we make up based on our emotional responses. Meaning when she said nothing's gonna work out. And some of this more critical macro black and white thinking or catastrophic thinking, it could be evidence of low functioning or stressed cellular biology.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think also the, the gut brain connection, the serotonin receptors in your gut and how much functional medicine is looking at, gosh, what is the profile of a person with issues with serotonin have to do it. But there's also studies saying that serotonin has, quote, nothing to do with depression. Like, there's an interesting new kind of way to look at serotonin, which I don't want to because it's so hard because I'm just getting used to understanding this way. But yes, the fact is there's a profile, there's a chemical profile that we can look at that are, are contributing to what many of us assume are organizing principles. It's just the way that we're born. It's just the way that like nothing's

[B]

gonna work out for me, no one likes me, I'm gonna do everything wrong.

[A]

It's an extension of depression. It's.

[B]

But it's more than emotion. We could say, oh, we talk about our emotional profile. I feel depressed, I feel like there's lethargy, I feel anxious, I am languishing. I'm not sure what my purpose is. But if we actually look at the quality of our thinking and the types of thoughts we're having could also be indicative of our biology.

[A]

Sure. Those rumination thoughts, all that obsessing and

[B]

that when our biology is in a better, more active, more energy producing state, then we may be geared towards more positive thinking, more optimism, more solution focused.

[A]

Well, we didn't even get to sort of like what are the diagnoses you get when you actually might just have trauma, you know, on a cellular level. Right. Besides the diagnoses of IBS or chronic pain or all these things. You know, many people are, We've talked about this before. Many people are labeled bipolar. Oh, you're bipolar too, Right. Cause you're not having like that extreme mania of bipolar I. But your depression's really bad. Oh, maybe you're just clinically depress depressed. You have generalized anxiety disorder, you're having panic attacks. I, I was talking about this with Dan Harris when I went on Dan Harris's podcast years ago as a journalist, he said, why do you have all these diagnoses? Why you got all these things like, what? What's wrong?

[B]

Like maybe your cells aren't making enough energy.

[A]

Well, I didn't know to tell. Damn that. But what I now see in this framework of what Dr. Amy is giving is like, you're allowed to say, I had some adverse experiences in my childhood

[B]

and I no longer feel safe.

[A]

I no longer feel safe. I don't feel safe with you asking me that now. I feel unsafe that we even had this conversation. But the notion is many of us were like, shifted around. And then you finally show up with an autoimmune disorder. Oh, we got something we can treat them with. Oh, okay, now we've got a name. I'm gonna write it in the insurance form. They're not gonna cover it because no one's ever heard of it. Yeah, know. And then I'm paying out of pocket and I can't afford it and I'm more depressed. And the cheapest thing to do is for Big Pharma to be like, take

[B]

an SSRI or a steroid.

[A]

Or a steroid.

[B]

The treatment system is so far away from the problem, like by the time you get into the system and there's something that is clinically viable to treat that has an insurance code that can be re reimbursed for. It's so far away from the problem as to be unrecognizable from the actual thing that's going on Mime. There are literally so many more questions that we are going to talk about on Substack. If you have liked this conversation, we're going to talk about the idea that someone might not feel safe to be more alive despite that they want to change. Meaning that if you feel lethargic, if you are a person. Procrastinator. That was a huge one. That procrastination can actually be a hit of adrenaline in order to get you going in the morning. The fact that people with autoimmune diseases tend to turn their criticism and attacks on themselves. I mean, I can go through a list here, but we're going to talk all about this on Substack. Mime and I are going to break this down. If you haven't already gone over to Substack, it is a website and check it out. Google it. You can join us there. There's an amazing breaker community. We want to hear your reactions to this episode on Substack.

[A]

Also, if you like this episode and want to have more personal interaction with us and other people about it. That's what Substack is for, really trying to encourage people to learn about the substack world so that you can have a different kind of experience than you have just from listening. It's a deeper experience, and it's a more personal one. So we hope to see you over on substack. Go to substack.com and just put in my ambiotics breakdown. And there we are. And, yeah, make sure you're subscribed to this channel. Hit the bell icon if you're watching us on YouTube so you can get notified. And for more breakdown to the one we hope we never have. We'll see you next time.

[B]

It's Mayim Bialix Breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. And now she's gonna break down, so break down. She's gonna break it down.