Re-Air: Nora McInerny: Move Through Grief Paralysis

Summary

Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown: Re-Air: Nora McInerny – Move Through Grief Paralysis
(August 29, 2025)

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Episode Overview

In honor of National Grief Awareness Day, Mayim Bialik and co-host Jonathan Cohen revisit their candid and deeply moving conversation with author and grief advocate Nora McInerny. The episode explores Nora’s extraordinary journey through multiple profound losses and her process of “moving through grief paralysis.” It unpacks the realities of mourning, the unpredictability of grief, the inadequacy of social expectations, and the ongoing integration of painful loss into life. The conversation also considers spirituality, healing, and the ways we can form enduring connections after tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nora's Personal Story: Catastrophic Loss and Shock

• Background: Nora recounts her “charmed” early life, her ambitions to be a writer, and her ordinary experiences until, in her late 20s, she meets Aaron—the man she would marry.
• Meeting Aaron: Their relationship deepened quickly, unmarred by drama, and led to early discussions about marriage and children. (09:24)
• Aaron’s Diagnosis: After a seizure at work, Aaron is diagnosed with a stage IV brain tumor (glioblastoma) just a year after their relationship began. They marry a month later, aware his time is limited. (12:56)
• Losses Multiply: In a short span, Nora suffers a miscarriage, her father dies (from cancer connected to Vietnam service), and then Aaron dies weeks later—all while raising their infant son, Ralph. (34:14)
• Quote: “I just had a very, very charmed life that I did not realize was charmed until I didn't have it anymore.” – Nora (08:45)

The Uniqueness and Universality of Grief

• Human Isolation: Mayim and Nora discuss how in grief, “nobody really knows” your experience, yet the sense of separation can reveal a deeper connection to suffering. (04:11)
• Physical Symptoms: They acknowledge that grief is not just emotional but also manifests physically—insomnia, tension, rage, bodily pain. (12:22, 45:35)
• No Set Timeline: Grief’s duration and expression are unique to every individual; the idea of a one-year “expiry” for mourning is a myth. (41:11)
• Quote: “The best part, I think, of grief is just that blind, indiscriminate rage.” – Nora (04:11)

Social Expectations, Support Systems, and Cultural Rituals

• Judgment & Advice: The hosts lampoon the awkward, sometimes offensive, and often well-intentioned yet inadequate things people say to the grieving (“You’re still beautiful—you can find someone,” “Have you lost weight!”). (64:37)
• Rituals Matter: Both acknowledge the value (and lack) of public grief rituals in modern American culture—Mayim describes Jewish customs, Nora Catholic traditions, and the importance of symbols and status for mourners. (42:16, 59:41)
• Quote: “Those traditions are so important because they signify something...to the outside world that tells people, ‘I am a mourner. These are the things that I need to do.’” – Nora (42:15)

Grief Paralysis, Productivity, and Moving Through

• Paralysis vs. Frenetic Action: Nora and Mayim discuss the twin phenomena of being “frozen” by grief versus compulsively staying busy—writing, starting foundations, pouring energy into anything but stillness. (43:55)
• Healing Requires Surrender: Ultimately, Nora finds that only “being with it”—allowing herself to fall apart—actually aids healing. Action helps until it doesn’t; emotional processing cannot be bypassed.
• Quote: “Emotions can't hit a moving target.” – Mayim (44:00)

The Role of Community and Shared Experience

• Peer Connection: Support groups, especially with others who have lost spouses early, provide critical validation. “One stranger who understands you completely can do what all the friends and family in the world cannot.” – Nora quoting Laura McKowen (56:49)
• Lasting Friendships: Relationships formed in grief, like with fellow widow Mo, endure and provide unique support.

Integrating Love and Loss: Remarriage, Blended Family, and Dual Joy/Sorrow

• Building Anew: Nora remarries (to Matthew, a divorced father she meets through a friend), blending families and having another child while keeping the memory of Aaron alive in their home.
• Identity Complexity: Navigating remarriage as a widow—addressing jealousy, honoring both the past and present, and teaching children that happiness and pain can coexist. (65:54)
• Quote: “You are allowed to love what you had and love what you have, and those things do not need to be at odds with each other.” – Nora (67:12)

Faith, Spirituality, and Meaning-Making

• Relationship With God: Nora’s childhood Catholicism provided ritual but didn’t shield her from questioning. She describes moments of profound holiness during death and mourning, recognizing God now in the presence and support of other people rather than in doctrine. (60:11)
• Memorable Incident: Arranging for last rites for both her father and Aaron: “It was so beautiful...I felt like, at least for a brief moment, I could see through this keyhole and...got it, you know, like why we're all here and like, what it all means and how holy it is to exist.” – Nora (61:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Feeling Understood in Grief:
  “One stranger who understands you completely can do what all the friends and family in the world cannot.”
  – Nora citing Laura McKowen (56:49)

• On Productivity as Avoidance:
  “Emotions can't hit a moving target.”
  – Mayim (44:00)
  “I thought I was a genius. I thought, one year it will expire. I will no longer be a mourner. So if I just stay as busy as possible, it'll be like it never happened.”
  – Nora (44:13)

• On The Reality of Loss:
  “Your suffering does not preclude you from ever experiencing happiness again.”
  – Nora (65:54)

• On Advice to Others:
  “You don't have to. Every person who's lost like a child or a husband or a parent to some horrible disease is like, ‘I need to start a thing to keep their memory alive out in the world forever.’ No, you don't. And people live inside of you. They live in, like, the stories you tell.”
  – Nora (52:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Nora’s Story Begins: Childhood, Meeting Aaron, Diagnosis: (05:35–12:56)
• Getting Married, Parenthood, Facing Mortality: (16:15–27:12)
• Multiple Losses (Miscarriage, Father's Death, Aaron's Death): (31:36–34:55)
• Writing and Productive Grieving: (35:05–45:35)
• Physicality of Grief, “One Year Shift”: (45:35–48:46)
• Remarriage and Blending Families: (47:15–65:47)
• God, Ritual, and Spirituality in Grief: (59:41–64:37)
• Social Awkwardness, Widows’ Club, Enduring Relationships: (64:37–65:47)
• Children, Trauma, Emotional Openness in Parenting: (65:54–71:21)
• Book Recommendations and Nora’s New Projects: (71:56–73:30)

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Takeaway Messages

• Grief is Both Incredibly Specific and Universally Human.
• There’s No Right Timeline, No “Moving On”—Only Moving With.
• Healing Often Requires Stillness and Surrender, Not Constant Doing.
• Community and Validation Can Come from Unexpected Sources.
• The Past and Present Can Coexist in Love; New Happiness Does Not Erase Loss.
• Rituals Matter—But So Does Finding Individual Meaning.

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Recommended Reading by Nora McInerny:

• It's Okay to Laugh (Crying is Cool Too)
• No Happy Endings
• Hot Young Widows Club (TED book)
• Bad Moms (movie tie-in, humor)
• Bad Vibes Only (essays)

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Memorable Closing:
Nora’s humor, honesty, and insight make this a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand or navigate the unpredictable landscape of loss.

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(For additional resources and community, listeners are encouraged to visit Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack or YouTube.)

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

[B]

I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[A]

And welcome to our breakdown. So tomorrow actually is National Grief Awareness Day, and we thought in honor of this day that we would revisit another oldie, but a goodie. It's an episode we did with really wonderful author and podcaster and kind of expert on grief, Nora McInerney. Nora is known for being very outspoken, giving practical tips on moving through grief paralysis. Her personal story, which she will talk about. She had a heartbreaking miscarriage and lost her father and her husband all within weeks of one another. A really unbelievable story of grief and also of healing and resilience.

[B]

She gives us a lot of practical tools on how to combat the struggle of dealing with other people's expectations during the mourning and grieving process and why it may be difficult to relate to others. Moving through the grieving process, I could really relate to what she was talking about, feeling alone and isolated. But how grief is such an important part of the human experience, bypassing it can have really detrimental impacts on our mental health, physical health. And by actually embracing this and understanding this process, we can move through it much more easily and actually get a lot of love, compassion and joy even from experiencing these emotions.

[A]

She also talks about why there's no set timeline for grief and kind of how that plays out. Also how specific and unique everyone's mourning experience will be. She's also going to talk about some of the physical symptoms of grief and the benefits of getting support. And we just couldn't think of a better guest than to have Nora on In honor of National Grief Awareness Day,

[B]

just before we get to this episode, a reminder that there's a place to get exclusive content not released anywhere else that places on substack. Check out Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack and join the growing Breaker community there. Ask questions and participate in the AMAs that are now living on substack. And again, check out mayimbialix Breakdown on Substack to join the community.

[A]

And now we hope you enjoy taking a look back at our episode with Nora McInerney. Break it down. You are not unfamiliar with a variety of aspects of breaking down, as it

[C]

were, one of my favorite pastimes.

[A]

And you know, there's so much about, you know, kind of your journey that is, that is exceptional, meaning it is outside the realm of so many people's understanding. But, you know, a tremendous amount of the work that you do, which seems to obviously have started from a very, very personal journey, is one that you've really been able to expand out to sort of COVID a variety of grief experiences without, you know, kind of some of the things that many of us often fear when we experience grief. Right. That no one will understand. No one will be able to relate. And, in fact, that is very true. You know, I. About three months after my father of blessed memory died, a woman came up to me in synagogue. And she was trying to be so nice.

[B]

They're always trying to be nice.

[A]

And what she said is a very banal thing. She said, I know exactly how you feel. I know.

[C]

So.

[A]

So here we are inside.

[C]

Was he your dad, too?

[A]

So that's what that meant. So this was literally. It was. There are certain services that you go to when you've lost someone. So it was a specific service for people who had lost people. Also, I'm a public person, so, like, everyone knew certain aspects of my father's passing. And I did choose to write about it a lot. And about three months is when you get that really angry irritability that comes with grief, when no one can do anything. Right.

[C]

The best part, I think of grief is just that blind, indiscriminate rage.

[A]

Well, this poor, sweet woman, she. I mean, I. I kept it together. But, you know, I remember saying to myself, like, this is exactly the point of grief. Is that you. You absolutely. You don't know. You don't know him. You didn't know him. You don't know me. That's like, what was going through my head. But, you know, the place where you've really, you know, made this very specific mark, you know, and as you say, it's very, very niche is you've taken something that is not just your experience. Your experience in particular is even outside of the realms of what anyone right, can imagine. You said that's what people say. Like, I can't even imagine. But you really have, you know, built this kind of understanding around it. And it's, you know, really, your life's work has been really making something that could be the least accessible thing for so many reasons. Accessible. So I would like to know a little bit about, you know, the years before.

[C]

Let's say I can tell you what my life's work used to be.

[A]

Yeah, I'm very. I'm super curious. So tell us, Tell us where you're from. Tell us. Like, you know, did you have experiences with grief or anything like that when you were a kid? Or were you just like a normal person growing up thinking that life was gonna be fine?

[C]

Well, first you wanna know what My nickname was growing up Blossom.

[B]

Me, too.

[C]

Blossom. Yeah. Cause guess what? I love to wear that kids didn't really understand in the 90s. Hats. Okay, sorry. I wore a bowler hat to my third grade photo. Okay, sorry. You rubes in Minneapolis didn't know fashion. It's called style. Okay? I look like, you know, the fourth stooge. Get over it. I look cool. I felt confident, never lived in town, did not stop. I was like, guess what? Hats are cool. You will see them on tv. I grew up in Minneapolis. My family's Catholic. We also love funerals. Right. But I do think that, you know, growing up now, I realize, like, Jews do death best.

[A]

We kind of do. I don't wanna brag.

[C]

My God. I'm like a yard sight. Candle.

[A]

What?

[C]

Like, oh, it's so beautiful. Like sitting shiva. Like everyone else having to just shut the fuck up until you want to talk.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Brilliant. Like, brilliant.

[A]

Yeah, we've definitely got death down.

[B]

Living. Not so much living.

[A]

We're not so good at dying.

[C]

Very good dying. We can talk. But I grew up Catholic. My life was. I always wanted to be a writer. And I remember telling my mom when I was a kid, like, I don't think it'll happen because, like, my life is too good. Like you. Nothing is going to happen to me. Thanks a lot for loving my dad, you boring person. And, you know, my parents worked in advertising, both of them. So I worked in advertising when I graduated from college, and I wrote tweets for great clips for years and, you know, put together social media strategies for, you know, an unnamed fossil fuel brand that absolutely did not be. Need to be on Twitter and would not believe me. They were like, I think, you know, I think we should be there. I'm like, I. I'm gonna disagree. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree, but you do you. And so I just had the most boring life, truly. Like, nothing had happened. And, I mean, aside from wearing that bowler hat, getting a bowl cut, also in third grade. So I also looked like Macaulay Culkin. That was like, an unfortunate thing, but I just had a very, very charmed life that I did not realize was charmed until I didn't have it anymore. And I did all the stuff that, you know, you have to do in your 20s, like, just go around tapping terrible men on the shoulder, being like, well, you love me. You're the wrong guy. Could I be the right girl for you? I'll change my personality. Like, what do you like me, too? Oh, sports. Sports and music. I same beer. Love it. And then I met this guy named Aaron, and it turned out we'd followed each other on Twitter. This is such a 2010 story. We followed each other on Twitter, and I had tweeted these. Like, Twitter was such a different place. It was so joyful. And I tweeted that I was gonna be at this art show to really just, like, prove how cool I was. And he was like, I'm going there tonight. And he broke through this group of friends. By friends, I mean only my first cousins, my only friends. And was like, you're Nora McInerney. I was like, yeah. And he's like, I'm Permort. We tweeted each other. And of course, I knew he was coming. He had mentioned he was coming. I had clicked on his little icon. I knew he was cute. I knew he was cute. And I looked through all his tweets. I was like, he loves Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift. I had stolen from our office the Taylor Tells all issue where it's like, they break down her lyrics. And I brought it to him, and I handed it to him, and he held it to himself, and he kept it forever. He kept it. I still have it. And we just, like, you know, all the boring stories. Every love story is so boring because they're all the same, right? It's like I found him. Like, it's just.

[A]

And how old were you when y' all met?

[C]

I was 27. Which, in the Midwest, it's like, you are going to die alone. My parents. Well beyond my dad's primary fear. He was like, when I was your age, I had two kids. So, you know, and Aaron was 30. He was 30 or 31. I just know that he was in his 30s, and that felt, like, huge. I'm sorry. He's, like, older. He's an older man. He's older. He, like, owned a home. Was the home a tiny little shack that was like falling into the earth that he definitely should not have paid any dollars for? Yes. But it was his, and I was so impressed. And it was just so easy. And we were together for a year, and then he had a seizure at work. And that night, we found out it was a brain tumor. And then four days later, they took it out of his skull. And a month later, we were married, and he had stage four brain cancer. And then. And then. And then. And I do remember standing in the hospital hallway before we knew, but you always kind of know. But we had just that magical thinking where we had just joined this thing called Instagram. And he was like, take a picture. Take a picture. So I've got my iPhone4 and I'm, like, taking a picture as they're closing the doors to the MRI room. And I just thought, like, okay, this is one of those moments that's a before and an after. Whatever happens after this, like, I know my life will be different. And it was. And you mentioned, like, everything is so personal. There is no, like, knowing exactly how someone feels. But I think in those moments, in those, like, first weeks after he had brain surgery and then got his diagnosis, like, I felt simultaneously like I had been separated from the normal world. We were sitting in a hospital room for so long. Like, our world had just shrunk down. There was all this possibility we were gonna be together. We were gonna get married and have babies and, you know, wear matching outfits and family photos and all of that stuff. And then we're just in this little room. But so is everyone else in this hospital. Like, so is everyone else. Like, no one is here because they want to be, except the people who work here and are being paid. Everyone else here is, like, hear against their will because something terrible happened. And I felt so separated from the world and also so connected to it in a way that I just hadn't had to before. Like, I just. I had so much sympathy, like, so much pity, I should say, for people who are going through hard things and almost no empathy, because I just refused to imagine. I refused to imagine.

[A]

Well, and I think that's sort of, you know, I want you to. If you don't mind, you know, I'd kind of like to go back a little bit, because, you know, when you think of kind of the first year of a relationship, you know, I kind of. I break things up in kind of three month, you know, phases. I think that's kind of how a lot of human. A lot of human cycles go that way. So, like, the first three months is like, it's lust and it's bliss. And it's like, oh, my gosh, this is it. I mean, usually, of course, there's a whatever. And then you kind of get to, like, the next three months. And then it's like, oh, we've been together six months. It's like half of a year. And the next anniversary is like, the big one, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, like, you. You curve around nine months, and by then it's been someone's birthday, some parent has had something happen. Like, you've been through a couple things, and you're like, wow, we made it through. Or like, I wish he would this or I wish she would that. But like you're there and then when you come round to a year, you're like feeling if you're still liking each other and sex feels good, you're like, we made it to a year. Like the world is our oyster, right? So then to have to have this happen, like as both a scientist and a human, I'm like, I think you were probably in shock, you know, totally. You know, for a large extent also of this kind of experience.

[B]

So this episode is sponsored by Wondering Jews, an open door media brand.

[A]

If you've ever found yourself feeling like you have more questions than answers, you're in good company. The Jewish people have been like that for thousands of years. Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam is a podcast where two of today's most dynamic Jewish voices, Michal Bittone and Noam Weissman, dig into the biggest questions about life through a Jewish lens. It's the kind of conversation where you'll laugh, learn something new, and probably shout in disagreement at least once. Michal and Noam tackle the tough topics like anti Semitism in America, what happens after we die, and the future of religion with guests like Bret Stephens, Michael Rapoport and Sarah Hurwitz. And this past month, in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, they've been celebrating some of the Jewish lives and institutions that have shaped American life, from food to music and comedy. Thoughtful, joyful, and always honest. That's Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam, a production of Unpacked. Find it on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube and make sure to hit subscribe. Check out Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam podcast and subscribe at Unpacked Bio J nmx

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Here's the question. And so many people have spoken to you and you speak so beautifully and you say many incredible things, but I'm really interested in. In these kinds of things. And I hope you'll kind of go with us.

[C]

So I will.

[A]

Yes. Had y' all talked about getting married?

[C]

Oh, yes, we had.

[A]

And because you're from the Midwest, you talk about it.

[C]

And honestly, we talked about on Date two, and I'm not joking, Date two. It was just. Everything was so easy. It was just so annoying. And to other people. Cause I was like, God, I like him so much. And actually on our second date, you know, I did like, the whole, like, so, like, you know, like, have you had, like, recent. Have you seen anyone recent? I don't know why, like. Cause I was just in that unhealthy, like, let's pick our scabs for each other kind of thing. I would never do that now. But he'd only had one other girlfriend, and they had been together for 10 years, and they'd broken up weeks before we went out. And I was like, oh, well, I guess this is over, because that's not gonna work. Like, no. Like, of course not. And then we went out, like two days later and. And we were talking and he was telling me all about his family. And I have. I come from a family of four. He comes from just, you know, a family of two. Him and his sister. And I was like, well, I want four kids. And he was like, I could do two. And I was like, well, three. And we shook on it. And he was like, if we have three kids, I stay at home. I was like, absolutely. I would never do that. I would never, ever, ever do that. You can be a stay at home dad. And I had just moved into his house at the one year mark. My lease was up and I hadn't told my parents because. Not because, oh, I'm an adult and I don't care what they think because I'm afraid of what they think.

[A]

Correct, we get it. So you had moved in?

[C]

Yeah, I moved like on October 30th.

[A]

Got it.

[C]

And then maybe a few days before October 30th was like our last normal night. He used to throw this party called Halloween. And like he would DJ and it was like $5 at the door at some, you know, it was at this bowling alley, Elsie's, in northeast Minneapolis. And it was. He was the kind of person who really made like everyone feel like the party couldn't happen if they weren't unless they were there. So when he said like, invite anyone, he really meant invite anyone and everyone he knew invited anyone. And it would be like hundreds and hundreds of people that he didn't know. And I got so drunk, I got so drunk I puked on his car and I puked in his car and I puked the whole next day. And then we went to work on Halloween and he had a seizure. I was just like, God, I ruined our last normal weekend, like by just laying in bed being like, like, I'm gonna die. I'm gonna die here. This is where it goes. But yeah, we talked about getting married and you know, and, and having kids. And I was, you know, painting the bathroom because he had painted it green screen green because he thought that was funny and he was just. Because he was funny and he was like, yes, if everyone do a green screen video in here.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

The bathroom was like this, just like the size of a toilet. It was just like a toilet with a shower, like over. It was so small. It was like, where would you shoot a video? Like, where. What, what scenario are you planning for here?

[A]

So did he have any other symptoms? I mean, like looking back when you look back?

[C]

Sure. But they were all now. Now having met so many people with brain tumors, so many people with glioblastoma. My mother's friend's husband died of glioblastoma. I actually had to reschedule my first date with Aaron to go to that funeral. And. Cause it was a night funeral. It was very classy and his had presented like he was reading the newspaper upside down. And this normally mild mannered man was rude and mean and Aaron didn't have any of that. He Was it was in a part of his brain that apparently he didn't need. Like the upper right. You probably know what I mean?

[A]

You need all of it. But yes, it was. That's a part that you didn't see.

[C]

Seemed like a vacant part.

[A]

You didn't just open for rent. No, but, like, one that didn't cause, for example, behavioral changes or.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Personality changes or visual stuff.

[C]

Place for a bad stage four brain tumor.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So he had headaches, but, like, don't we all? And, like, he couldn't fall asleep, but, like.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Isn't that normal when you're, you know, in your 20s and have. Or 30s and have a stressful job?

[A]

And I'm curious about this also because, you know, you are a writer and you have, you know, a different way you look at the world, as writers tend to. So what was that moment of getting engaged? Was it in a flash? Was it a. Like, how did it come about?

[C]

We had talked about it, and we were like, we'll get married the summer after next. So that would've been the summer of 2012, but there was no, like, formal anything. We'd just been talking about it, and we didn't know what kind of brain tumor he had. And it was Halloween night, and he had had his MRI and they had told him that there was a brain tumor. And I had decided that it was benign or just like, maybe like a conjoined twin they had forgotten about, or it was just gonna be something that would be scary, and then it would be over and we would be over it.

[A]

That's the bargaining stage of grief.

[C]

Oh, the bargaining stage. And I was like, yeah, no, that's. We can. That's totally acceptable. It'll be, like, such a great story. You'll have a handsome scarlet awesome. And I remember we were in this dark, dark hospital room, and his mom, who I love and who is just so sweet, was like, can I stay here, too? And I was like, yes. Like, of course. Like, can I? I'm only his girlfriend. Like, where do I fit in here? And she stayed in, like, the chair that reclines into a twin bed. And I stayed in bed with him, which felt incredibly scandalous, even in this situation. I was like, but in, like, a little hospital bed. And I remember him whispering to me, like, you can't marry me now because I'm going to be sick. And I was like, no, you won't. And also, like, no one tells me what to do except my dad. And there's, like, the heart monitor light illuminating, like, his beautiful Profile. He had the best nose. And I remember telling him, like, you're. We're gonna get married. We're gonna get married as soon as you're out of here. And, like, that's that. And now we're engaged. So, like, he was like, okay, but you. Like, you really shouldn't. And I was like, well, I'm really going to. So there we go. And I told. We told his mom the next day,

[A]

you didn't wake her in the middle of the night.

[C]

I'm sure she, like, heard and was like, okay. But she was a flight attendant, so she literally can fall asleep anywhere with no. Like, she was like, okay, yeah. Oh, it reclines. Even better. Great. Luxurious. So that was it. And we didn't have a date. He was diagnosed a few weeks later.

[A]

What was the prognosis at that point?

[C]

You know, we had walked into the oncologist's office. Bargaining. We had walked into the oncologist's office with the belief that only an oncologist can tell you you don't have cancer. Like, truly, that is what we thought. We were like, yeah, so we just have to go there. They'll tell you it's nothing, and then we can go. We made lunch plans, so we had a place to go. We had taken the whole day off of work. Which. America. I love it. Greatest country in the world. I was like, can I take a whole day off? Like, my boyfriend had a seizure, and they took a brain tumor out of his brain. Totally no big deal if not. But it would be cool if I could go. I can come back in the afternoon. Which I did. Right. Great. So we went to the oncologist's office, and they told us that it was stage four glioblastoma. And we had said before, no matter what. And I don't remember if Aaron said this or I said it to the doctor, but we had talked about it beforehand, and we told them, like, we never want to know how much time there is, like, ever. So even if right now you're saying, like, he has four days to live, we don't want to know. Like, we just never, ever want to know, and that's that. And we never want you to even bring it up, ever. And so they never did. But I Googled that word once on my phone, and the first result, how you get, like, that little preview. It says expectancy three to five years. And I remember trying to close my phone so quickly, but he saw it, and he saw me see it, and then we just pretended that neither of us had Seen it.

[A]

You did get married?

[C]

We got married. We got married one month later at the same place where we met.

[A]

Wow. And when did you get pregnant?

[C]

The next I. God, it's so hard. I always forget how years work.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I'm like. And then. But I had a baby in January. We got married December 2011. Ralph was born January 2013. So you're gonna have to do that math. Cause I was an English major. Yeah.

[A]

So. Yeah. So you were married less than six months, let's say. And you got.

[C]

For sure.

[A]

Yeah. And you got pregnant. What was that?

[C]

Through science. Through science. Like. And all this happened. It had to happen as you were

[A]

praying hard and asking for a virginal.

[C]

Got it. As opposed to just, you know, like, there was no spontaneity to it. It was like, you're gonna go jerk off in a cup. I'm gonna lay down. And a nurse is gonn. And set an egg timer. A literal egg timer. So before he started chemo, there was a lag between brain surgery, diagnosis, chemo, and at the appointment where we were told he had cancer, I asked about, like, is it going to be safe to have kids? And they looked at me like, well, no, because he's going to be radioactive, and he's going to be taking this chemo that is so dangerous that he. You can't share a water glass with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And your toothbrushes should be in separate cups, and you shouldn't exchange fluids. Very sexy. And I looked into immediately. He was like, well, I want to have kids. Like, what are we going to do? And we. He went and froze his sperm for, like, a couple months. And IVF was so expensive. We were both young. We had no money in the bank at all. And so we did iui, which is intrauterine. Intrauterine insemination, which I literally asked the IVF doctor. I was like, do you have, like, a freer version? Like a. What if you just put it in me? Is that possible? And he was like, yeah, we could. I was like, great, then just do that one, and we'll do it. And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. No big deal. And now we have Ralph. And now we have Ralph. And now we have Ralph. Yeah.

[A]

Were there conversations about what that would be like in terms of the decision to parent, knowing, you know, that at a certain point it might be not the two of you?

[C]

Yeah, there were. There were. I think the. When I think about that time in our life, people kept saying to me, like, wow, it's so good of you. Like, so good of you to stay with him. Or like, oh, this has to be. Like, this is so brave of you. And I just think, like, not really. And when I look back now, especially having Ralph is about to turn nine next week, I just think, oh, my God, I don't know that I could do what Aaron did for me, you know? And I'm so glad he got to be a dad. And we decided to go forward with it when we took our niece and nephew, his sister, and her children to Disney World. I had never been. Aaron had been so many times, he was, like, on a first name basis with it and called it Disney. I was like, okay, well, it's Disney World. You should use the full name. Not everyone here knows what all the rides are, okay? So we took them to Disney World, and it was like the end of the night, and every kid on the shuttle back to the hotel was, like, crying, losing their minds. And Aaron was holding our nephew, who was also losing his mind. And he was like, I want to do this. Like, I want to do this. And you think, like, you think you know what you're agreeing to. You know what I mean? Like, you always do. You think you have, like, a sense of what you're doing, but you really don't, you know? Like, I mean, I knew I would most likely be raising Ralph without Aaron, but you can't live in that knowledge and still live, you know what I mean? Like, when people say things like, well, we're all gonna die eventually, which people said to Aaron when he had cancer, well, we'll probably all get cancer. It's like, okay, well, then you get it right now. Like, if it's so, so easy, well, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Yeah, but you don't think you will, you know, that's why you get out of bed. Like, if you truly live believing, like, it could end at any moment, you wouldn't get up. And it's like we had to live these parallel lives where we were, like, planning for the worst. Like, we had a date with an estate planning attorney to plan out. We had no money. What were we even planning for? It was like. And we made medical directives so that he would know what I wanted in case I was, you know, who knows what happens during birth? Like, we all. We did this stuff together, but we also lived like we were just going to be like a normal couple, you know, like, he was still putting money into his retirement. He was like, we were making decisions about having a child, about how to raise this child as if he were going to be there forever. And I think that's so generous. And I also think it's just because we were so naive, and thank God for that. I want everyone to have, like, the gift of not knowing, like, of. And of not anticipating and living with this. You're already, like. When you're already living on that ledge, like, on the knife's edge, where, like, it could just end, like, any. It could just truly end. And you both know that it really is a gift to, like, not be able to project that far into the future. I think that's what anxiety is. That's what worry is. Like, sort of trying on those feelings in advance. There's no preparing. No amount of worry, no amount of, like, trying to imagine what it would feel like that could prepare me for that. And Aaron was just very, very much in the present moment all the time, like, just bizarrely mentally healthy. I've never met a person like him. Like, I tried to explain, like, what depression was like to him, and he was like, oh. Oh, man. It's like, you just feel that every day. I was like, yeah, just like, all the time. Like, I just feel like, you know, like, what's the point? Should I get up? And he was like, what? Like, oh, my God.

[A]

And I think this. This, you know, feels like an appropriate time to. To also mention that you had had a hell of a month the month before this, your October leading into.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So. So just kind of to. To flash forward.

[C]

Yeah, we just had this beautiful, normal marriage, truly. Like, we really did. Like, where I would be. Like, I told you to take out the trash. And I meant now. Like, I literally meant now. Come on. And like, when he was dying, he was like, I'm not gonna know how Game of Thrones ends. And I'm so glad he doesn't, because he got to die when it was amazing. Okay, so.

[A]

And then. So you had Ralph.

[C]

We had Ralph.

[A]

And you got pregnant with.

[C]

Yes, I got pregnant again. And when I talk about, like, truly being naive, I do think now part of it. You mentioned shock. I think I spent a lot of those years in shock. And I did not know anything about trauma. I did not know anything about. At no point did any medical professional say to me, like, are you okay? Like, do you need something? Yes. I could have used, like, every Ativan that in the world. That would have helped. I could have used, you know, therapy. But when would I have gone? Like, when. Between work and having a baby and taking care of Somebody, like, there was just no way to do that. We decided to have another baby. And it seems delusional now. Part of it, you know, like, it really does, but I wanted Ralph to have a sibling. I wanted him to have a sibling that was, you know, Aaron's child. Like, Aaron, we had all this extra sperm. It felt like I didn't want to waste it. And what do you do, you know, like, is it moral to have a baby with a man who's not there anymore? I don't know. And I wanted him to be there for it. I felt like Ralph had these magical powers and had, like, kept Aaron alive and so would two babies keep him double alive? I don't know. But I got pregnant and it felt miraculous, and it felt amazing, and it felt so sad to watch this disease progress and know that I was, like, growing a life while I was also watching, like, a life end. And it was obvious, like, it was obvious that, like, that tumor was growing and, like, clipping into other parts of his brain. So I lost that baby on October 3rd, and then my dad died five days later. And Aaron is like, wow, he just had to scoop me, huh? Just had to.

[A]

Was your father ill? Was it sudden?

[C]

Yeah. My dad was a Marine in Vietnam, and he was exposed to many chemical agents that are not good for a 17 year old and an 18 year old and a 19 year old to breathe in. And he had all kinds of cancer, and he told us about it in May of 2014, and he died in October. Wow.

[A]

So, yeah, so that.

[C]

Yeah. And then kind of got to skip through some stuff.

[A]

Well, no, but. But then literally approximately six weeks later, and you. You lost Aaron, so.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

So then you did an amazing thing in that you were very productive in your grief, and you were so productive.

[C]

You wrote. So productive. I wrote, I wrote, I wrote two days after Aaron died, it was Thanksgiving, and we had Thanksgiving. Just insane. Just like, talk about shock. Talk about. Just like.

[A]

That's also very, very Midwestern Catholic. Like, I'm. Nothing will stop you. I mean, that's.

[C]

No, no, no. We will give thanks.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

There is still much to be thankful for. Thank you. Thank you. Let's count our blessings. Died quickly. It was the worst dinner of my life. I hated every minute of it. I think we made the kids watch, like, the. And all of our kids were very little. I'm pretty sure that was the night they all watched Die Hard and we, like, left the room. Like, my mom was mad at me because I was just on Tumblr all night. You know, like responding to 14 year old girls who were like, OMG your husband died. I'm so sad. And I was like, thanks, thanks. Stay young. Being an adult is the worst. Stay 14. It does not get better. It actually gets a little worse and then maybe, maybe much worse. So that was a terrible Thanksgiving. And I had been writing, I'd been writing since Aaron was sick. I'd been writing my whole life. And Aaron was the first person I dated whoever cared about it and read my writing. Even though this is, you know, this is like height of the blog era. So I was writing for all these little blogs and writing really interesting things like our leggings pants. And I believe they are to this day. I was ahead of my time because that was 2010. I was saying, yes, they're pants. You don't need to, you don't need to cover it up with like a long cardigan. You can just, you can just wear them as pants. And now I just feel like the

[A]

wrong time to have that conversation.

[B]

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[C]

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[A]

Um, so. So you wrote and. Yeah, and I guess I would like to, you know, I know it's hard to encapsulate, but because I am a Jewish person of the traditional variety, you know, I remember and it's not the same. It was my father, not my husband. Like, I'm not at all comparing, but, you know, I did read Year of Magical Thinking, you know, the Didion book, which my mom and I both read. Essentially the only book I could read, I could not read during my first year of grief. I don't know what short circuited, but I couldn't even read magazines. It was very strange. But what I learned is that while all grief is different, there are certain things that are similar and things like I mentioned that, like, rage sets in around three months. Like, I found that to be universally true of everyone I've spoken to, no matter what the loss was, that there's like. So certain things happen. You start dissociating at this month, you start, you know, anyway, so what I remember of that year was that it really did take a year for something to cycle through. And I don't know if it's because, like, you know, you've lived every day once without that person existing. And, you know, the Jewish custom is very, very specific. You know, there are restrictions we have obviously for the first eight days, and there are restrictions we have for the first 30 days. But then there are restrictions that carry on for an entire year, which I held to. So what I know is that, you know, when that year's up, you know, you host a kiddish, like a little, you know, wine and cookies thing. And then, you know, something shifts. Your identity shifts. You're no longer a mourner, meaning you're no longer required to, you know, say the prayer three times a day and all those things. So, you know, obviously your first six months were very productive. When did something shift for you where you felt, okay, this was one phase. And now like, I gotta, like, you know, whatever it is, I have to shower more regularly. I need to parent this child. More actively. How long was that?

[C]

So long. So long. And I think one of America's biggest shortcomings is even if you have beautiful and useful, helpful, transformative grief traditions like you are so fortunate to have, it doesn't matter, because we mostly care about productivity. And you will get. I got three days off for my dad dying. The average person gets three to five business days off for bereavement leave. I did not have a job anymore. I found it impossible to read, impossible to wake up, impossible to go to bed at night, impossible to do anything, really, other than watch Bravo and rearrange my furniture in the middle of the night, take everything out of my cabinets. Just another phase of grief that I found is just straight, weirdly purchasing things that you can't afford, like, just being like, you know what I need? I'm gonna need $300 worth of old Navy workout clothes. How do you spend $300 at Old Navy? I'll show you.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

I will show you. And I think those. Those traditions are so important because they signify something, right? And they signify something to the outside world that tells people, like, I am a mourner. These are the things that I need to do.

[A]

Status. And we don't have that, really, in our culture anymore. Like, what's your status?

[C]

Yeah, no, it's like, let's go. Let's get out there. And so I. I was productive in so many ways that were unhelpful and in so many ways that really represent the financial reality that I was in, which is we. Aaron did not have life insurance outside of, like, the nominal amount that you get by just being employed. I was no longer employed because I couldn't go to work, and then they didn't want to pay me.

[A]

And you had a toddler.

[C]

Yeah, and I had a toddler. And, you know, there had been this, you know, sort of GoFundMe thing that was set up, and I was so ashamed of it, like, so ashamed to have needed it, that I paid off Aaron's medical bills and I paid for the funeral. And then I just would get wasted at night and give the money away, because I would go through and see people who. Whose communities couldn't raise $500, who couldn't do, you know, whatever. And I started to do all of these things. Start, you know, started an organization that gave money to people who didn't have it in. In tragedy. Started a. A widow's group because I was forced to meet this woman whose husband had also died, who I didn't want to meet. And now she is one of my best friends, Mo and I. I wrote my first book in the six months after Aaron died. And I got that book deal because

[A]

she's my kind of depressed.

[C]

Yeah, Let me. I will do anything to not feel.

[A]

Yeah. Emotions can't hit a moving target.

[C]

They cannot. And I truly, like, I thought I was a genius. I thought, one year it will expire. I will no longer be a mourner. So if I just stay as busy

[A]

as possible, it'll be like it never happened.

[C]

It'll be like it never happened. I will be the smartest person ever. I will never have to get super sad. I will never have to get my sad on other people.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And, you know, Aaron and I had written his obituary together. I don't know if you knew that. So his obituary went viral, like, 2014 viral. And the woman who would become my agent had reached out to me and said, someday you should write a book, and if you ever want to, we can talk. And I literally emailed her, like, maybe a day after in Spooner. I was like, yeah, I'll write a book. I'll do it now. And I wanted to do it in that moment because people kept handing me books and all these books. One, I could not read. But two, they were all, like, told from this really safe distance, like, 10 years later, 20 years later, like, oh, this is what it means. And I was like, it doesn't mean anything. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, obviously I didn't write a book, but it was actually something that my book agent asked me to do. He specifically asked me to compile my essays on grief, specifically for that reason. Because writing in moment of grief is very, very, very, very different. And when I read them now, when I read my essays, I'm like, who was that person? Like, it's very, very strange. So was that kind of. Did you feel like a year was like, oh, a shift?

[C]

Almost a year to the day that Aaron entered hospice. I could feel that grief in my body. My neck and shoulders are locked up. I'm, like, completely unhinged. I'm rage tweeting. My friend Mo was like, you should come over. I know you're having a hard time. Like, I couldn't, like, move my neck and shoulders. Like, everything was so tight. I'm all over the place. She's like, come over and burn things. I love fire. I brought a bag of, like, those. This is not a bill from, like. Like, why would you send it if it's not a bill? Why would you send.

[A]

So you can burn it when you're in Greece, right?

[C]

They're like, it's a pre bill. So, like, just anticipate. Like, this is what you'll. Like, this is not a bill. But if we wanted it to be,

[A]

this is to make you mad enough, so when the bill comes, you pretend it didn't come.

[C]

Like, if it was a bill, it would ruin you, okay? Because this brain surgery costs more than your house is worth, you loser. So I burned all those things, and then the side gate opened, and this guy showed up, and I was like, ugh, God. I have to pretend to care about, like, whoever this person is. And he just basically sat there all night and listened to Mo. And I said, dead husbands. It was my husband. It was Matthew. And it was like, after a couple hours, I was like, what is your deal? Like, is your wife dead? Like, what. Like, what brings you here? And he was like, oh, no, I'm divorced. And I truly was like, that's the worst thing I've ever heard. Like, someone stopped loving you, and I don't know how you're still alive. Like, I would die. I would die. And he was like, oh, no one's put it to me that way. I was like, yeah, she just decided not to love you anymore. That's crazy. That is crazy. Your life is horrible. Like, and you have kids, and you had to explain that to them. Like, he was just like, okay, that's

[A]

also a little bit of, like, if we look so hard at you, we don't have to look at me, right?

[C]

Yes. Like, yeah, it's like, I could. I. You know, the thing. The difference with Matthew and so many other observers is, like, I knew he didn't feel bad for me. Like, I knew he was just interested, and he was curious, and he wasn't judgmental. And Mo and I were saying crazy things, crazy things, crazy things. And he was, like, just listening, listening. So quiet, so handsome. And I went home, and I found him on Facebook, and I sent him a message, and I told him to ask me out. And a year to the day of Aaron entering hospice, that's when Matthew could go out. Matthew was like, I have Wednesdays free. That's the only day I don't have my kids. And I was like, okay, we'll go out on Wednesday. And I had had this moment where I was like, this is the day that Aaron went into hospice, and it always will be, and it can also be something else. And so I went out to dinner with him, and we just talked for hours and hours, and it happened so similarly. To how it happened with Aaron in that it was just easy and I didn't have to ever wonder. I didn't ever have to think, like, oh, am I texting him too much or not enough? But the presence of Matthew truly made, like, made my grief hit.

[A]

Do you know why that is?

[C]

I think just his, like, one. His physical presence, I'd not had, like, a man around. And, like, his presence, his aliveness, knowing that there would be more with this person or maybe another person, but there would be no more with Aaron. It's like knowing there would be more, possibly with Matthew made it more real that there would be no more with Aaron. Matthew's like, he was just a. He was such a safe place to be and so many people aren't. And I remember one of the first. First few times we hung out, like, I couldn't get a babysitter. Ralph was in bed. And so Matthew came over and I was on the floor reading Mary Oliver's Felicity, this book of poems she wrote after her partner, like, her lifelong partner, died sobbing on the floor, like, reading him these poems. And he was like, it's really beautiful. It's really beautiful. Like, do you want me to, like, rub your back and you can just, like, cry? And I was like, yeah, I do. That's exactly what I want. And I didn't have, like, I didn't. I don't want to say I didn't have the safety, but kind of like, I didn't have a place to just do that and feel that

[A]

because I

[C]

was afraid to show people who had known me for so long, like, how much it hurts. And I thought if I showed them that, then that would be all they could see and they would never see me any other way, and they would just feel bad for me. And I didn't want anyone's pity. I didn't want to just be like, this sad story, which I could kind of sense that, like, it was just a sad story for people to repeat, you know, And I didn't want that. And it wasn't. It was sad to Matthew, but he didn't have the burden of having known every previous version of me, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. And what would you say? You know, obviously there's going to be a lot of people who, you know, who hear this conversation and may not relate specifically, but I think that it might be helpful maybe for you to tell us sort of what things most kind of moved you forward. You know, you talk a lot about. And we do as well. Like, we don't really get over things. We get through them, you know, but they, they don't. You know, it's kind of like grief shifts, but it doesn't really go away. Like, it's a thing. Like I still have these moments where it's like, oh, I gotta call my guy, my dad, I gotta tell him that, like, like, literally, like that's. And it's been, you know, years, and there's still that weird notion of, like, I didn't get to know this or I didn't get to go there emotionally, you know, like all those things. But what. I'm curious if you can share sort of what has, you know, been enduring meaning, like, are you a, you know, are you a therapy person? Are you a meditation person? Are you a get up, get out there person? You know, was writing, you know, essentially for you, an anchor? Like, what, what has helped? Because a lot of people get into a grief paralysis and it's very, very hard to get out of it or to move through it.

[C]

Yeah. You know what I see more, more often is what you and I do, which is like this frenetic need to try to alchemize it into something else, to try to use it for self improvement. Oh, I'm going to help people. I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to do this thing. I tell everybody, like, what if you didn't? Like, what if you didn't? You don't have to. You don't have to. Every person who's lost like a child or a husband or a parent to some horrible disease is like, I need to start a thing to keep their memory alive out in the world forever. No, you don't. No, you don't. And people live inside of you. They live in, like, the stories you tell. And I spent so much of that time. And I don't regret it. Right. I don't regret the things like I did. I think they were helpful until they weren't anymore. But I also look back at those years and I think, oh, my gosh, that is a person who's just like. Who's just too afraid to be with it. And the only thing that has helped is actually being with it and actually allowing myself to fall apart. I didn't also have, like, the luxury of being able to. And most people don't. Like, most people have, like, no safety net. And so I don't think that you're stuck if you are still sad years later. But I do think, you know, my mom's friend, the one who had lost her husband, had Said to me, when Erin died, she sent me an email. I love boomers. Sent me an email from her work email and was like, I believe we have a sacred responsibility to live fully in the face of our losses. Next line. It's a bitch, though. That's the whole email. That's the whole email. I was like, yes, that is it. You do have this sacred responsibility to live fully. But living fully does not mean accomplishing and performing and trying to do things. Like, living fully is so much smaller and quieter. And it, for me, has meant that I got married and I blended a family. But it has also meant that I try to actually enjoy my life, which for a long time, I think a lot of those things that I was doing was me trying to prove that, like, I still deserved to be alive. Because Aaron was so young. He was 35, and he was so kind, and everybody loved him. And I'm kind of an asshole. And I just wanted to, like, Earn it. Right? Like, I wanted to earn my survival over his. And you don't have to do that. But the things that have been enduring for me are. I've gone in and out of therapy. Sometimes I think maybe we have, like, too much therapy. Or, like, sometimes I think you could just, like, it's a whole different topic.

[A]

That's also very Midwestern of you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, do we really need to talk about feelings until we get through them?

[C]

Do we need it? Do we need it?

[B]

Eventually, they'll just shift.

[C]

Eventually, they'll just go away. They could just go. They could just go. I literally, in my first book, wrote a chapter about how I didn't need therapy because what were they going to do? Tell me that I'm sad? What? No. Like, I absolutely did. I had ptsd. I was like, oh, is it not normal to, like, flashback to your husband's, like, skeletal face? Or, like, be looking at a live man who's around his age and watch him die in front.

[A]

Is that weird?

[C]

Is that. I just thought that's what people did. It's very cinematic. So I don't.

[A]

I was also gonna mention, though, that, you know, one of the things most recommended is to go, you know, to, obviously, grief groups, but especially for. For. For, you know, people who lose someone who are not in the, quote, normal demographic of when we typically. It's a very, very hard thing to kind of break into. You know, I've heard. I think it was Moshe Kashler who described what it was like to get sober when he was 15 in a room full of, like, 40 and 50 year old dudes. Like, it's, you do you need to have some, some peer experience, you know, that's specific. And so I do want to, you know, mention that, like it's, it's extremely significant and important to acknowledge that while all grief has things in common. Yeah, it's, it is, it's exceptionally specific.

[C]

The writer, Laura McCown is also a sobriety person. Had said, one stranger who understands you completely can do what, you know, all the friends and family in the world cannot. Like, that is the necessary palliative for change. And I did not want to be friends with any widows. Like, I did not want that to be my identity at all. I was forced into it and I'm so glad for it. And what endures is not the formal organization, but so many of those relationships. And I can open up my DMs, get an email, I get a message at least once a day from a fresh widow. And I feel that connection to them. Like it really is like it is a siblinghood of people who have experienced that, that kind of loss. And Mo is still the person that I call. You know, she came to when I was pregnant with the baby that I had with Matthew. I thought that I was miscarrying again and she took me to the hospital. Like she's the person that I called to go with me. And those relationships are very enduring and so are the relationships that I have with people who loved. And I think I am really lucky. Not everybody gets that sometimes a family just falls apart when, you know, the hub to the wheel dies. And I'm so glad to have. I had lunch with Aaron's mom today and she and Matthew's mom are taking all the kids to a movie on Monday because they don't have school. I'm very lucky for that. I'm very, very lucky for that.

[A]

Well, and I think also, you know, when I, especially when I obviously I have teenagers, I have a 13 year old and a 16 year old in particular. When I hear people talk about like, you know, heartache, you know, in their teen years or, you know, when I think back to being, I didn't find any point to dating in junior high or high school anyway. I mean, I don't think anybody found a point in dating me either. But the notion that I'm trying to get to is that like true adult relationships often do come from sharing really, really deep, really emotional, really intellectual kind of things. And while it's important to have all different kinds of friends and friends that you have light time with and friends that you, like, go get drinks with and, like, you laugh, you go to clubs with, like, oh, all that fun stuff. When it comes down to it, the relationships that will kind of see you through are ones that often involve a real connecting of deep and important information. Whether that's, oh, we shared someone we lost, or we have that kind of connection. Like, so when I hear young people who are like, but I love him so much, and it's like, well, live a little bit, you know, have a little bit of life before we decide we, you know, can't move on from this particular situation. Here's an awkward question. Yeah, Where's God for you? Did you have a relationship?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Meaning, did you have a relationship? Cause, you know, a lot of people wonder, like, you know, like, this could rock anybody's faith in anything in the universe, and you don't have to have a relationship with God. But I. I am curious. You were raised Catholic, and sometimes that means that you don't want to, you know, have associations. Yeah, but I also don't know if you had a. Any sort of religious, spiritual, mystical notion of what this transition, you know, for Aaron was or could be.

[C]

Yeah, I was raised Catholic. I, like most of us, I was like, yeah, I'm, like, Catholic in a way. Like, I will go when my parents asked me to go. And my dad was very Catholic. And Aaron was there with us when the priest came. And they renamed it. They keep renaming things, I think, so they know who, like, you know, is a fair weather friend and, like, who's really up on it. They change all the responses and was like, I knew it. I knew it. And so they don't call it last rites anymore, but I think they should because that's more beautiful. So the priest came to do last rites, and it was my siblings and my mom and Aaron standing around my dad's bed. And it was so beautiful. And we said the same prayers that, you know, my dad would say to us when we were with us when we were little to put us to bed. And I hadn't said them in a long time. And Aaron had this tank top that he liked to wear that said Satan in rainbow colors. And he was just not raised religious. He just didn't take anything that seriously. And we left there and Aaron's. The left side of Aaron's body was no longer working. He had a sling. He couldn't lift our child. He couldn't drive a car. And I remember that night before we watched Game of Thrones, he said, I don't Know what that was? But it was so beautiful. And please make sure I have that. And we did that for him. Same priest, you know, they don't, like, check your membership card or anything. They'll just show up. And it was like Aaron's mom and my siblings in. It was so beautiful. And I was the only person there when Aaron died. And I felt like, at least for a brief moment, I could see through this little keyhole and, like, I got it, you know, like, why we're all here and, like, what it all means and how holy it is to exist and how beautiful it is to. To be with someone when it all ends. And that was, I think, the closest to God that I will ever feel besides giving birth is being present for his death. And when Aaron was sick, I could not have believed less in a God. I was, like, cool and, you know, was just sure that it had just been so dumb, all of that effort as a child and an adolescent. And I think now I see. I see God in people and in the way people can show up for us more than I do in, you know, a specific institution or a specific structure. But I will say that the smell of incense and a Hail Mary will always just.

[A]

Oof.

[C]

That'll always do it for me.

[A]

Thank you for sharing that. You know, specifically, I think it is. I think it's important also. There's such a. You know, there's. There's such a variety of reactions to, you know, to sickness. I mean, there's a variety of reactions to just existing every day in our healthy bodies. But I think especially, you know, if people are raised with this notion of, if you do these things, things will be good for you. It can be very, very difficult when life, you know, happens. And I think the notion also of, like, everything's for the best, like, that doesn't always feel so. You know, it doesn't really always fit. Which is another thing that people, you know, I'm sure, said to you at some point. And mostly it's people don't know what to say. Like, I really give most people the benefit of the doubt when trying to, you know, interact surrounding grief.

[C]

And I think the worst thing, I mean, I can forgive all the dumb things people said to me. I mean, at the funeral, more than one person was like, you're still beautiful. Like, you can. You can still find someone. I'm like, oh, like, tonight, like, what is. Like, what are you. Is it you? What's going on? Or like, oh, my God, have you lost weight? It's like, yeah, I Have, like. Yeah, I'm extremely stressed out. I'm six feet tall. In no way should I be a size four. Yeah. I've lost weight. Thank you. Like, well, it looks great. Like, thank you.

[A]

Right. You should have more depth around.

[C]

You love a thin woman. They're like, tell me, oh, how'd you do it? How'd you do it? Oh, you just didn't eat.

[A]

I love it.

[C]

Oh, God. Good for you.

[A]

So you. You. You did.

[C]

You.

[A]

You married Matthew?

[C]

I married. I married that guy from the backyard.

[A]

You have Ralph, and he had children from his previous marriage. Relationship. So there's four.

[C]

There's four. There's four. We had a baby one year after that first date.

[A]

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. So he had to. You had Ralph. I see. So we truly blended.

[C]

We truly blended.

[A]

And what is your life generally like now? I mean, obviously, that's a very, very full house.

[C]

It's a very full. I know. It's like one of the. The oldest just moved into his first apartment.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And the youngest just learned how to ride a bike. It's like, we just have a very big spread of humanity. And I do think that it's, like, really easy to be like, oh, like, what a happy ending. And also. And this kind of gets back to the comparison stuff, too, you know, where people are like, oh, God, I'd rather. Would I rather date a widow, or would I rather date someone who's divorced? You know, like. Or, like, isn't he jealous? Isn't Matthew jealous? I'm like, yeah, he can't wait to be dead. What are you talking about? What is he jealous of? But, you know, you can't have a blended family unless two other families have been destroyed. And so all of our kids, except for baby know what loss is, and they know what trauma is. And I want so badly for my life's work to be making sure that they know that your current happiness or your future happiness does not, you know, eliminate any suffering, that your suffering does not preclude you from ever experiencing happiness again. That you are allowed to. To love what you had and love what you have and that those things do not need to be, you know, at odds with each other.

[A]

I mean, I think adults need to hear that.

[C]

Adults need that. Like, it's true. It's like, I. I'm always so surprised at the number of widows I meet who are like, oh, no. I just cannot find a guy who can, like, handle, like, my dead husband. I'm like, what does he want to fight him? Like, what's.

[A]

Like, what's the.

[C]

And. And, like, this is, you know, a family portrait of me and Aaron and Ralph. And then that's.

[A]

You're doing great.

[C]

This is. It's like, we have photos of, like, all of our family, like, up on one wall. Because it's all, like, it's all fine. It's all fine. And it does not need to be a competition, and it doesn't need to be that way. I don't know. It's. The people are so. And I think I was like this, too, like, on that second date when I was like, ugh, you had a girlfriend before and you just broke up with her? Ick. Never. You could. We could never be in love. It's like, why not? Like, why not? Like, we are all, like, the sum of all of our experiences. And that is okay. You're never going to find a person who is tabula rasa. And if you do, that is a red flag.

[A]

Divorce, obviously, is a different kind of. You know, it's a different kind of grieving. You know, it's like the lowercase G. But also, I think that's something really important that you point out, because also, you. You feel like, gosh, well, this happened to my kid or my kids, so now I need to try and avoid anything that even makes them feel negative. And, I mean, I think so many of us fall into that. It's like, we put a lot of. It's projecting also. You know, it's putting a lot of like, oh, here's grief I can feed with candy. Here's grief I can take to Disney World, right? Like, this grief I can dress up nice, right? And, yeah, I remember that was, like, one of my first. Not mistakes, but questions, you know, when we got divorced, like, I said to the. To our family therapist, I'm like, well, what if he wants to, like, see his. And she's like, no, you don't have to call every time. You don't have to write a letter. You don't have to be able to produce the image of your ex who might be at work or whatever. Sometimes you just have to sit in shitty feelings. Like, it's like, a terrible lesson. It's terrible for adults to do, you know, which is why we drink and do drugs anyway.

[C]

And. And, like, keep so many therapists employed. Like, and we do this for our kids so that the next generation of mental health professionals have job security.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Okay. It's like. But, yeah, we want. I don't know. We all were built to. We're built for comfort, right? Like, we're not built to be, like, God, how can I, like, just step into this and, like, feel as bad as possible?

[A]

We're built for. We're built for survival, you know, and. And exceptional things happen to humans when we exist. And, you know, we also. We don't grow up typically anymore in ways that put us in touch with nature, life cycles. Like, we're just. We're very, you know, removed from that. We have a very, you know, pristine image of what we'd like. And, you know, the media delivers it to us for sure.

[C]

Yeah. I didn't know. Like, when Aaron died, I was like, do I have to call? Do I have to get him out of here? Like, now? Like, it felt like. Like, I have a. I have a. I have a crime scene or something, and I need to. And it's like, no. He could have stayed for, like, hours. Like, we could have taken our time, but I just didn't know. And I do think, you know, I never saw death. I never saw, like, grief really up close. And I do think it's helpful for kids. They can. They can. They are attuned to how adults feel.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you think you're hiding it.

[C]

They can tell you're a bad actor.

[A]

You're always a bad actor.

[C]

Yeah. Your kids are like, I'm not buying it. Really. Things are good. And you're like, things are so good that my mascara is on my chin because that's how I like to wear it. So thank you for that. Kids know. They know. And it's scarier for them when we act like it's not a thing.

[A]

When a child's internal reality does not match the external reality, it feels like they. If it makes you feel crazy as a child and kids don't really know how to process. I feel crazy. And what it looks like is I don't trust my feelings or yours. And you get all sorts of defenses and all the things that Jonathan and I love to talk about. Nora, it's really, really a pleasure to talk to you. We really appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability. And just so I can get this right, your first book was, it's okay to laugh. Crying is cool, too.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Then we have second memoir, as it were. No Happy Endings, which is about sort of the happy ending, which everyone's like, oh, look, you figured it out. Everything's fine. And then there is a Hot Young Widows Club book.

[C]

That's the TED book. Yep.

[A]

There's also a bad moms book, which is.

[C]

There's a bad moms book.

[A]

I actually didn't even realize that. And that's super important.

[C]

Nobody does. I love that so much. The guys who wrote the movie, I think, like, the studio got a book deal, and they were like, will you write this book?

[A]

It's a hilarious and heartfelt book based on the movie.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I went to labor in 2016.

[C]

It put me into labor. And I love. I love that movie. And I love the guys who wrote it. They're so kind and generous. It was supposed to be a ghostwrite, and then they were like, no, you wrote it.

[A]

Okay. But then we have a new book.

[C]

Then we have a new book.

[A]

And tell us briefly, what's that one?

[C]

So bad Vibes Only is essays about funny essays about hard things in modern living, like parenting and your children's privacy and growing up as millennial in the tackiest generation. It's not our fault. Just like the tackiest era of media that was just hell bent on giving us all eating disorders. And then now having Gen Z be like, actually, it's body neutrality and being like, we're working on it. Okay? We're working on. Your mom didn't give you snack wheels cookies. Okay? Like, your mom didn't give you, like, 100 calorie packs in your lunch. All right? So just. Just give us a minute.

[A]

We're.

[C]

We're trying.

[A]

Thank you, Nora. And we look forward to seeing what. What. What you write for us next.

[C]

Yes. Thank you.

[A]

When I asked her that question, what did I say? How did I say it?

[B]

You said, do you. First of all, you started with, do you know? And anytime Mayim says, do you know something? She's not asking because she's curious what you think. She has an entire thesis written out that she wants to explain, but she just wants to warm.

[A]

What did I say?

[B]

You want. She just wants to warm you up enough to get that in.

[A]

What did I say? I said, do you know what. What it was? Well, because she said she finally felt.

[B]

She finally felt grief when Matthew was around. It made it hit. I think she said. And you said something to the effect of, do you know I'm making my

[A]

jello pudding pop paste.

[B]

Do you know why having Matthew around made it hit.

[A]

Finally, she had a very good attempt at an explanation.

[B]

She was like, I having a man around.

[A]

And, well, she said it reminded her of all the things that Aaron wouldn't experience.

[B]

And also, sometimes having someone else around is a grounding force. It helps us sort of not just cycle in our own little world.

[A]

You want to know what I think?

[B]

Yes, I do want to know.

[A]

Well, so one of the, one of the funny things about grief is grief bleeds into every emotion.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And specifically, you know, in that more acute phase, you know, for me, for sure, in that first year, you know how, like, when you see a commercial that, like, makes you sad or, you know, it's like that but times a million when you've lost someone, especially someone, you know, very close to you. So what happens is it's a, you know, there's a certain conservation that the brain has and when you feel other things, grief feeds in. So if it's not so much that like, oh, I'll never feel joy again, it's that physiologically and neurologically, in that acute phase of grief, every emotion, like love, feels like guilt and death and grief. Meaning it's like a, all roads lead to grief. And what it is, is it's, it's partially protective.

[B]

Well, she had been not feeling anything.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So she had been like this sort of.

[A]

Well, she had, she had been feeling other things.

[B]

I mean, she was trying to distract enormously. So as soon as she slows down enough.

[A]

Well, and also starts, starts feeling the other things the body can feel. It's that reminder of like, oh, but the overwhelming feeling is grief. That's how deep it is.

[B]

Maybe that's the Ask Miam. Anything. Why did Matthew make it hit? She also said that she didn't want to have people see her like that and just feel bad for her and that if they saw her break down like that, they wouldn't see her any other way. And there's this notion that we can't be sad broken around other people. They're like, how many times you say it's going to be okay? Well, it's only going to be okay if it's, you're allowed to not be okay for a while.

[A]

Jonathan, maybe you could speak to this a little bit because you have a very specific reaction just when you're sad. Sometimes when you're deeply sad. I cannot say the right thing.

[B]

No, you can't.

[A]

Like, I literally, I, I, we had

[B]

to have a talk about, we did

[A]

have to have a talk about it, but maybe do you want to speak to it a little bit? And everybody's going to be different. Like, you know, a lot of people say, like, oh, I don't really want to, I don't really need to like, bore you with the details about my dead. I will bore you with it. Like, I will tell you about every freckle on my dad's face.

[C]

I'll tell you you made a movie about it?

[A]

I said, I made a movie about dad's dying. No, but I'm saying, like, everybody's got different thing, you know? And also, like, the Jewish grief that I come from, people were like, he wouldn't want you to be sad. I'm like, oh, well, you clearly didn't know my father. He would want me to make a movie about it, throw my body into the grave with my mother, cover ourselves up like, everybody's got kicks, just to claim your space screaming, a mess. A mess. But you have a very different kind of emotional processing I have experienced than I do. So what, what is it when you're deep? And I don't just mean like, oh, I'm sad. Like, when you're experiencing something deep, what is it?

[B]

I, for a very long time, had a very difficult time accessing grief.

[A]

For yourself.

[B]

For myself. So I would not want to feel sad. If I felt sad, I couldn't let myself cry.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So then when I actually would access it, and if I felt safe enough around someone, it wouldn't take me years often to feel safe around. And there's only a selective group of people on this earth that I will sort of go there with. It's a weird club, very small and exclusive club. No one wants to be a part of it. But when I do allow myself or I'm able to, I say, because it's not really. I don't really feel like I have a choice if I'm okay. So if. If I'm able to get to that place, I can be distracted. So I can't just, like, open the floodgates and go there. So if someone's like. If I feel like I'm imposing on that person, if I feel like they're like, shh, it's going to be okay, and I'm like, be quiet, it's not going to be okay. And then it will, like, pull me out of this, like, because I'm trying to ride this, you know?

[A]

You know when you're like, drunk or stoned or whatever and like, some. Some real shit happens, like, there's a car accident and all of a sudden you're sober. That's what it is. It's like you're in grief, but if anything disturbs it, you're like, now I can't feel my grief and it's your fault.

[B]

Yeah, I get grief constipated and it's grief stabated. Grief stipated. Exactly. But no, it's a real thing. And like, if someone touches me too Much. And they're, like, trying to comfort me, and I'm like, no, get away. It's not about you comforting me. I just need to feel my thing, and I just need you to pause.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And just exist for a moment without distracting me.

[A]

Well, and I think also, you know, to kind of bring it back to, you know, to what Nora was talking about. Like, it sounds like there was a lot of distraction that she did, which, you know, I didn't want to, like, poke at her life any more than she let me.

[B]

I wanted to ask. And I don't know how she does. Yeah, I'm sure. How does she not look at Matthew and think at any moment, something's wrong with him?

[A]

Oh, you know, I. I did. I. I almost asked that, but I. I do feel like the process she's been through sounds like it has truly brought her to a place of kind of being present, meaning, like, literally doing what's in front of her. You know, I think having another child was probably a really, really, you know, huge transformative shift and kind of, you know, kind of creating that family. But. And I actually thought of you when I thought of asking her that, because, you know, again, and this is something we lean on a lot here, there's a tremendous variability, you know, to people's tolerance, to people's processing, and even the fact that, like. And I wasn't really, you know, like, to say it's very Midwestern to be, like, how much therapy do we need? Right? Everybody's gonna kind of have a different, you know, path and way around it. And you and I are much more, like, sit in that melancholy kind of zone, you know, really deep, deeply, like, feel it to a place that it marinates. Like, I'm a real marinator, you know? You're sunshine roses. I'm sorry, did I. Am I just meeting you?

[B]

I don't know how I would be now. I mean, the biggest grief I experienced, I was a kid for. And at that time, I think there was an enormous amount of shock I can relate to. And then the other component was just, like, I just shoved it all away.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But I mean, just even with general emotion, like, she seems like a person, is what I'm saying. Who. Who naturally, you know, has an ability to move through things, you know, in a way that I was not gifted with.

[B]

You know, she's a faster emotional metabolism.

[A]

She's just different, you know?

[C]

Just different.

[A]

Everybody's different.

[B]

Different is okay.

[A]

Different is okay. All right, for those of you who are not following us on Instagram, please go to bialikbreakdown. Make sure you subscribe. You can subscribe on the YouTube channel. Listen to us anywhere that you get podcasts. If you'd like to watch us, though, definitely go to my YouTube channel. Subscribe. Hit the little bell. Icon ding so you can get notifications and go to bialikbreakdown.com if you want to ask me anything. You can submit a question there. B I A L I K breakdown dot com.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

[B]

It's Maya Bialik's breakdown.

[C]

She's gonna break it down for you.

[B]

She's got a neuroscience PhD or two

[A]

do one fiction and now she's going to break down to break down she's

[B]

going to break it down.