← Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
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- [00:00]
Bart Ehrman
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- [00:26]
Mikhail Abakumov
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- [00:34]
Bart Ehrman
Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin. I'd like to welcome you to this special edition of the Misquoting Jesus podcast. This week I'll be doing the interview and it's going to be a very different kind of episode this time because I am dealing with somebody who's a scholar, a, a Christian scholar who works in the Christian theological tradition. I have with me Mikhail Abakumov, who's Ukrainian. He normally lives in Ukraine, but he has had to leave because of the Russian invasion and he's now resident in Poland. Mikael had me on his podcast recently to talk about my book that's coming out on Armageddon. And it was such an interesting conversation that I thought that people on this podcast are certainly wanting to hear something from Mikhail, in part because of the situation that his country's in and that he's in as a refugee from the country, but also because he's intimately involved with ministries. He's a theologian, as you'll see, but also ministries dealing with refugees from Ukraine. And as it turns out, the Book of Revelation is relevant for some of the things happening and that was fascinating to me and stuff I didn't know I wanted more. Basically, I want to learn more about it. So I asked Mikael to be on beyond this podcast. And so that's what, that's what today's podcast. Is. So first of all, Mikhail, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:20]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, thanks for the invitation. It's privilege to speak with you again, Dr. Ehrman. So it's such privilege because I'm although I'm Christian, but I'm very fan of your work and I wrote and study and learn from you. Thank you so much.
- [02:35]
Bart Ehrman
Well, thank you. You can just call me Bart and I'm glad you know that. You say even though you're a Christian, you're interested in what I do. I try to do the history and I don't really, I really don't see myself as anti Christian. But a lot of Christians around here do, especially in the southern United States. Mikhail, could you say something about who you are and what your situation was before you had to flee Ukraine?
- [03:02]
Mikhail Abakumov
Okay. I'm a part teacher at the Christian Open Academy in Ukraine and I am also part of the Reasonable Faith Ministry and also and try to cooperate with some various Christian organization during this old time. So I have many contacts from different Christian organization. My main area of specialization is theology, it's education. So I work hardly in theology sphere in Ukraine. So a little bit about my background. I grew up in a family of former believers who attended, you know, the gospel of the health and wealth. And they see, they saw so many deception in this church and they so many like falsehood and so on. So my parents left the church and left disappointed in it. So until about 15 or 16 years old I was not a Christian at all and was skeptical about the church. But the difficult time in my life became in my life because in 2014 the war began in Donetsk and I was born and lived in Donetsk and Donetsk is a city. From these cities the military conflict began in 2014 and has grown into the full scale world today. But that all start in Donetsk. And I also have got depression. I saw people die and so on. So all this prompt me to search some answers to my questions about the meaning of life, about the problem. I know that for you the problem of evil has become like one of the main problem for Christianity. And I completely understand your concern because I see manifestation of this problem every day, violence, killing of innocent people and so on. But for me, you know, Christ is like living hope because his Sermon on the Mount, his teachings, they changed me. And it is in the light of his teaching. I want to see the church, the society and this war. I found that when Christ speak about the life of the enemies, the justice, the resurrection, this can answer on questions that this possess me in this time of war. And the only answer that can I give for people who struggled with war. So this gives me hope and also hope for people who also struggled with me. So this is like I was introduced in, in theology. So this is like my little background about.
- [05:33]
Bart Ehrman
So you said your parents were involved with the gospel of health and wealth. I don't know specifically what that means, but I have an idea. Can you just say what that is. And is it a big thing in Ukraine? And also is that what you have returned to? Are you involved with a different kind of Christianity now?
- [05:52]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, no, I'm not crazy. That's return to this idea. But, but the gospel of health and wealth is actually very similar to situation in usa. So you all know Kevin Copeland and some this big preacher who talks about that if you believe in gospel, you will be health, you will be well. That Jesus and apostles and apostles teach that you have prosperity and all things. So Jesus have reached all of us and so on. So. And this very similar idea that we have in Ukraine and actually we have before the war, I don't know what about this, what about now. But before the war we have the larger church in Europe. It's the church of gospel, health and wealth. And it's actually church where all people outside this church understand that this is completely falsehood. And we have so many bad examples of this church in, in our life. So it's actually this church attend my parents, but my parents, they just honestly search some churches and they don't understand this theology, ideas and so on. So in practical aspects when they saw these problems they just go out of church disappointment. And when I became a Christian I also started searching some church. But I understood that the church must have some, you know, health ideas about what, what Christ is and what, what Christ teach. Because when I read the New Testament I understood that Christ does not teach that we, we will be health and wealth and so on. So I find some other church. I have some, some, some classical Baptist tradition. This is like classical church in our Soviet Union. And so I attend this church now. But you know, since I have always shown interest in education and in knowledge, in knowledge in general, from the very beginning, I strive to ensure that my Christian worldview was meaningful and reasonable. So I don't just want to have faith. You know, one of the biggest problem in the field of theology in the post Soviet space is the lack of education and critical thinking in the church. So I suppose it's due to the persecution of the church in Soviet Union and the ban of development theology. But now situation is such that almost all aspects of theology, biblical studies, etc. They developed extremely poorly. So people are not aware of elementary things and studies. And this is why my goal is to help change the situation. I want to learn and also develop theology in, in Ukraine and also in, in post Soviet space. But when you do this, as you know, xcourse many people think that you are heretic, that you are apostate that you simply don't have faith in Christ and so on. So many people think that I am just, you know, heretic that don't believe in Christianity and so on.
- [08:57]
Bart Ehrman
Because you, you, you have an intellectual aspect to it and you really want to kind of study it as opposed to just. Yeah, absolutely. Can you say something about the religious situation in Ukraine broadly, but before the war, kind of apart from the war, is Christianity a major component of culture there? Is it. What kind of Christianity is dominant? Is there an Orthodox tradition as an Eastern Orthodox tradition and an evangelical tradition? What. What's the lay of the land? In Ukraine?
- [09:26]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah. In Ukraine, as in Russia, the overwhelming majority of Christians is Orthodox. Orthodox Christians in Russia in general, Protestants are treated rather badly and many churches are simply banned because they have some laws, for example, that you should not have some relationship with American. This is with some European churches and so on, but because maybe all Protestants have some relationship with Americans. So it's maybe all banners in Russia. And I think many of you know Patriarch Kirill, head of the Orthodox Church in Russia, who openly endorsed military aggression, military war in Ukraine, and he is in fact the representative of the majority. So majority people in Russia are Orthodox and majority things like patriarchy, real. However, although practically everyone considers themselves as Orthodox, I must say that the majority are only nominal Orthodox. So. So they don't really believe in Christianity and resurrection and so on. This is just like nominal cultural background in Ukraine and in Russia also. So they just think that this is some tradition and so on. But if we ask them, do you believe really in resurrection? They say of course not. So it's just like good tradition, good idea. In Ukraine, unlike Russia, there is a religious freedom and Protestants feel pretty good, although they're still in minority. But in Ukraine we have some freedom and for example, Protestant church can develop in himself and so on. And we have actually very high political person who. Who also Protestant in Ukraine. So situation is different, but the same idea that Orthodox is like general cultural background in Ukraine and Russia also.
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Bart Ehrman
So within the Protestant church in Ukraine, are there. Are there a range of denominations or is there one that dominates?
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Mikhail Abakumov
I think the Pentecostals is large the denomination in Ukraine, like in usa, I suppose. So Pentecostal and also Baptist tradition is very large also. But Pentecostal is dominated. Absolutely true.
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Bart Ehrman
In the west, it tends to happen that during times of crisis, religion grows and the people become more fervently religious, especially in periods of war. There's never times of peace in the world. But people in America, we tend to Be pretty isolated from the rest of the world. And so we, we imagine that, you know, this is a time of peace when we're not, we're not in the midst of something. Religion tends to decline. And so is that how it's been happening in Ukraine since the invasion or since 2014, that people have become more interested and committed to religion?
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, you know, in 2014, I suppose it's not the case. Because when we speak about 2014,
- [12:33]
Bart Ehrman
it
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Mikhail Abakumov
should understand that in 2014 we have only local conflict. Local conflict in two cities. It's like Donetsk and Luhansk. And I can say something about this, about this, but Ukraine was a part of Soviet Union, as you know. And in Soviet Union we have some like this general idea that Russian languages is its dominant, it's main language and so on. And in Ukraine we have some southeast region where we have some cities. And in this region for historical reasons we have like Russian population. So people prefer speak in Russian, although they understand very well Ukrainian, but they speak in Russian. So in this region, when in 2014 an event began, which event we called the revolution of dignity. When people go against the Russian power in Ukraine and the Ukrainian president go out from Ukraine to Russia and we have some change in power in country and so on. And after this Russian propaganda, they spread some propaganda about, they start this idea. So Ukraine wants to ban Russian language at all. Ukraine want to persecute some Russian people in southeast, in Donetsk, when I live in Ukraine, in Lugansk, it's near city. So if you want to live, you should disobey, you should kill, you should search some independence and so on. And in this of course all of this nonsense, because Russian languages is never banned in Ukraine, it's complete nonsense. But people in that time believe in it. And the strikes began in Donetsk and Lugansk. And after this, as a result of support of Russia, these two cities in southeast Donetsk, when I live and Lugansk, they declare their independence. There was Donetsk people republic and Lugansk people republic. It's like two independent city independence from Ukraine. And for eight years these cities have conflict because Ukraine obviously sent troops to these cities to liberate from occupation. And for eight years we have local conflict in these two cities and Ukraine. But for most people in Ukraine, it's like just local conflict. Some is there and for them personally it's nothing else. But after the full scale war in 2022, then we see some changes in mind of people because for now all people understood very well what war it is. And we have some Growing in church, in religious understanding. We have, for example, main figure in political sphere in Ukraine and they openly said that, for example, they go to church, they pray to God about this. So we see some huge changes in religion understanding of Ukraine now. And like you said, this is pretty general for all humanity.
- [15:33]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah, seems to be. Yeah. Okay, thank you. That's very interesting. You are, in addition to working with refugees, you are studying, you are trying. I don't know how you do that, but are you working on a degree now in, in theology, is that right?
- [15:48]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, yeah.
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Bart Ehrman
Doing a. What kind of degree is it that you're working on and what school is it that you're working at?
- [15:53]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, in this year I've. I finished my BA degree and I want to continue to have some A degree and of course it's not. It's all dependent on so many factors now in Ukraine and in this situation of war, but I want to. To do this and my school is actually, I suppose you don't know this in usa, but yeah, we have local schools in Ukraine, like for example, Ukrainian Evangelical Theological Theological Seminary and we have some, for example Filial of Talbot School of Geology and, and so many like this school. And one of the school is Ukrainian Evangelical Theological and I study in the seminary for. During this time of war.
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Bart Ehrman
And you're doing a thesis now, is that right?
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, and now I'm writing my thesis. Since the beginning of the whole square war, my interests have shifted to questions about the Christian attitude to war, pacifism, like, you know, just war, Christian realism and so on. And of course, for many Christians, the personality of Dietrich Bonhoeffer is like, remains an example of what the Christian response to the problem of political evil and tyranny should be.
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Bart Ehrman
Let me just interrupt there, Mikhail, because I'm not sure people understood the name Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, yeah.
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Bart Ehrman
And. And if they don't know about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, they really should especially particularly relevant Christian responses to war. So. Yeah, okay. I just wanted to make sure everybody knew who we were talking about, so. Yeah, go ahead.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a. It's a German German Lutheran pastor and theologian who reign of Hitler openly rebelled against his regime. But as a Christians, his emphasis was always on, of course, on the church. And the German church was for the most part accepted. I'm teaching on Hitler and Nazisment without any problems and changed Christian doctrines. For example, they crossed out the story of Israel. They considered their race, it's like high race, and they actually sinless and so on. So we was someone who back in the early of 1930s saw this as a huge problem. And he openly spoke against this distortion in the church. And then he actively participated in the ecumenical movement spreading information about the Nazism. He participated in conspiracy against Hitler. And so he was arrested and killed before some one month before the war ended. So it's, it's. It's very tragic figure, but it's very inspirational. His life is amazing because he's not only practically set out of example of his theology, but he also he was first, first class theologian, you know, who studied in Tubingen and Berlin. And on my estimation, I don't know if you agree with this, but in my estimation in that time Berlin was like most prominent place on theology in the world. So he received like 2 degrees PhD and he interacted with Adolphon Harnack and other great mind like Ray Katnabur. So he was some. He was brilliant in, in his theology. It's this connection of his practical theology and his theory. It's amazing. And that's why for many Ukrainians and Russians this is like very inspirational figure, especially during the war. But of course in our languages we have very little information about him. The only biographies that we have available on him in Russian in Ukraine and the biography of Eric Metaxas actually I have, I have this one and it's similar cover in. In usa it's very popular biography but for all academics that it's very poor biography because this like Metaxas have some portrait of conservative Christian who don't understand some liberal theology and so on. But von Hofer was one of the most in his liberal understanding theology because he participated in conversation with Harnack, with some other scholars. He understands liberal touch very well. He was not fundamentalist at all in his understanding.
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Bart Ehrman
No.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah. And for this reason we have some poor situation. Some people who understand Bonhoeffer like this, they just think that this is like conservative Christians, but who don't understand Bonhoeffer more like some liberal theologians, they say for example that actually Bonhoeffer was not actually a Christian. He was just like, you know, some theologian who thinks it's not important, but it's also untrue because everyone who study Manhefer knows that he was very serious in his Christian convictions. And so my main idea that I want to show a more accurate portrait of Bonhoeffer for Ukrainian people. And I want to wrote some his biography, his see his estimation of his life and also practical aspect of how we can apply his theology to our Ukrainian Russia war and how we can understand his personality in this time. So now I'm just reading all his work. I try to understand, and I see, as usual, so many distortion of his ideas among Christians. So it's. Yes, it's a sad situation. But.
- [21:17]
Bart Ehrman
Well, you know, Bonhoeffer, he's one of the major theologians of the 20th century, but was very active politically. So if those of you listening to this don't know about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, it's worth knowing. And one of the things we have from him are letters that he wrote from prison. He was involved with this plot to assassinate Hitler and was caught and was executed, as you said, Mikael. But in prison, he wrote these letters that are very moving and on the American scene, at least when I was in graduate school back in the 70s and 80s, he was popular across a wide range of theological persuasions, because in evangelical circles, he was very popular, but also in more kind of liberal Christian circles because he. He had both things going. He was a very serious student of theology. And, you know, I mean, he was an expert in theology, and he did study with all these greats, but he also had this kind of. So, I mean, he knew that this had application to the world and that evil had to be fought, and he, you know, he literally fought it to the death. I think it's a really important project if he's not well known in Ukraine, because it seems like he would be just a figure that people really need to know about. Mikael, I want to move on to something that might seem less relevant, but maybe it's not the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation really is about the struggle against the powers of evil. And, you know, I don't know.
- [22:45]
Mikhail Abakumov
We.
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Bart Ehrman
We actually haven't talked, Mikhail, you and me, about your understanding of Revelation. But my. My understanding of it is that it really is against the political structures of the day and the city of Rome and the exploitation of power and wealth in Rome. And it's a statement that God is going to destroy this evil presence in the world. And so that, too, would have some obvious kind of resonance with your situation. But could you just say something about, like, in the Christian communities you're involved with, or more broadly in Ukraine, is revelation like a big deal? Sometimes in America, when. When things are going badly or people look around the world, they go straight to the Book of Revelation to see that, you know, the signs are being fulfilled now. And so I wonder if that's happening in Ukraine at all among maybe, you know, among. Among the devoted Christians there.
- [23:33]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, absolutely. This is, like, huge topic, and during all my life, I see this example, for example, in 2010 began back I was still a teenager. And I. And I remember very well that I heard that some tribe of Maya, you know, have prediction about the end of the world in 2012. And some people also connect this with Revelation and say, so in 2012 we have an end of the world. I remember that I. The day before the supposed date of the end of the world, I watched some documentary where some scholars talked about all those things. And one of them said in the end that I hope I'm wrong. And well, he was clearly wrong.
- [24:18]
Bart Ehrman
Can you tell us why they had picked 2012? I don't think that was a big deal in America. Maybe there have been other dates that were a big deal, but why 2012?
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, if I remember correctly, Maya have some calendar. And is this calendar end in this date? And in this estimation they calculate that it was 2012. And also they connect with some ideas in revelation, in Matthew 24, we see some, I know, bad things on earth. So it's just happened in 2012 and so on. So I see this as this idea all my time. For example, during the period of coronavirus two years ago and the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, we also have some very popular idea in our churches. And there was a very popular video that called last time signs of the end. And this video have some detailed calculations from Revelation, from book of Daniel, from Gospels. And we have, for example, some. Some idea like this. We have formation of Israel in 1948. And formation of Israel is a sign when it's. We see in the Gospels when Jesus say about the fig tree and this is sign of formation. And we also know that Moses in Psalms say that 80 years, it's a maximum of period of living for people. And we have simple mathematical calculations. For example, 1948 plus 80 is 2028.
- [26:03]
Bart Ehrman
Okay, now hold on a second, let me get my mind around this one. So, okay, so the fig tree. Okay, yeah, this is it. In the Gospels, Jesus says that when you see that the fig trees has come back to life, you know that the end is near. And so they're saying, okay, that's 1948. Right. Because of this foundation. And then Moses says in the Psalms that the longest a human can live is it's given for a person to live, whatever it is 80, it's 80 years. Right. Okay, so 1948 plus 80, that's how they get. So they end up then with 2028.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Okay, that 2028. Yeah.
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Bart Ehrman
Okay, we'll see.
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Mikhail Abakumov
And Actually on that time they, they said that 2028 and we can have minus seven years, because seven years in Revelation, it's seven years only for Israel. And so in 2021 should be the Rapture of the church.
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Bart Ehrman
Okay, wait, wait, seven years. So because there's going to be a seven year tribulation on earth according to evangelical or fundamentalist thinking. So the 2028 is when it's going to end. But it means the Rapture will happen seven years and it just happens to coincide with the COVID 19.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, yeah. So and this means that the Rapture will be in 2028 and the end of the world in 202021 and the end of the world in 2028. And they also have some other ideas from the book of Revelation. For example, great sign in heaven, a woman caused with the sun, you know, this idea in Revelation, under her feet a moon. And they see some astronomical ideas in the history. For example, in 2017 we see like some other, some planets then became in one line and so on. And they said this is a woman and this is a like moon under this planet and so on. So in plus this, plus this, plus this, we all like have general pictures that it will be rapture 2021.
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Bart Ehrman
Okay, so the 2000. So that's, yeah, the revelation 12 thing about the woman with the child. So they do that, they do that. Some kind of astronomical calculation. Okay, so in 2021, so you know, in the US there's this passage in Revelation in chapter 13 about the beast that comes up out of the sea. And everybody's going to have to have a mark put on them in order to participate in the economy to buy or sell anything. Now in America, some very conservative groups were saying that the COVID jab was the mark of the beast. I don't know if you got that over there, but you know, the government was forcing you to get these, these jabs and that's, that's the Antichrist. Was that over there too?
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, people was very afraid about this and they, they afraid of vaccination and they saw this. Like we see this and especially when we see, for example on China and like governments of China have pressure on the people. They saw, wow, that's like, it's clear prediction in Revelation. And we see fulfillment now. So and, and we also have some videos, for example, where people saw this idea of chips in the here and here, and they say, whoa, this is like a rapture will be very soon. Because we see this is like fulfillment of this prophecy.
- [29:19]
Bart Ehrman
These are Computer chips that are being implanted in people. Is that, Is that what you're talking?
- [29:24]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, not in head, but in, in hand. And so we already see some examples on this in, for example, in Japan. Yeah. Some people do this and some fundamentally explain that.
- [29:35]
Bart Ehrman
So is it, is it like having a credit card in your hand or something? I mean, it's like, I mean, what's the chip? Somebody was trying to sell this to me the other day. I wasn't quite explaining it. But you get a chip in your hand and so you don't need to carry your credit card with you. And so you just go to the, the reader and you put your hand. It's a great idea. So. But that's a mark of the Antichrist.
- [29:55]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah. Yeah. Well, for some people it is like coronavirus vaccine and this. So this is like fulfillment of the prophecy. And you know, this. There's so many other details. It's such like, you know, I don't know how it explained, but for example, they, they can take seven years in Genesis, seven fat calls and seven big calls, and they say, for example, this seven years, and we can apply it to Revelation, seven years. And it's wow, how this happened.
- [30:28]
Bart Ehrman
So, yeah, so Joseph has this dream. The pharaoh has the dream, right, that he sees seven very fat cows around the Nile and then seven really thin, skinny, starving cows come up and eat the fat cows. And Joseph explains that that's they're going to be seven years of good times and seven years of bad times. And so they apply that to the book of Revelation. I don't think I've heard that one before.
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Mikhail Abakumov
And they say this is. This is the same idea. Seven years of tribulation, same idea.
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Bart Ehrman
Okay. Is this view widespread or is this like a really tiny margin of fundamentalists or what? How does it work in Ukraine?
- [31:03]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, I suppose that this particular understanding of fulfillment, for example, that will be the end of the road in 2028. This is minority, but the general idea that Revelation is talking about the future in detail, that will be some chips in our hands and so on. This is overwhelming. It's quite popular. So it's. Maybe all Christians think that way. Exception. It's only academics, but some general population seems all in this way, even among the Orthodox. Among Orthodox, it's not slightly similar, but also similar. For example, they also believe in antichrists that will come in in literal sense. They also believe in some. This general idea, but not strictly similar, like Protestant.
- [31:54]
Bart Ehrman
Okay.
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Mikhail Abakumov
Huh.
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Bart Ehrman
Do you know anything about the history of how long that's been going on in Ukraine because in, you know, in the west it's been kind of up and down over the years. It really started big time. This interpretation arose in the 19th century in England and then came over to America. And as often happens, it exploded more in America than it did in England. And this too is the common view among Christians here. I think that even, even people who aren't Christian assume that revelation is predicting what's going to happen in the future. They just think that's what it's about. And the irony is that for many, many centuries, nobody, almost no very few people interpreted it that way. So I would assume that in, in Ukraine it was similar. Right. That this is a new, like I mean fairly recent in terms of broad span of Christian history. Or was there always kind of a tradition to interpret revelation this way?
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Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, you're right. It's amazing how people believe that this is like traditional understanding because when I saw these things I wrote and for example an article where criticizes approach that I think this is pure exegesis that Bible doesn't tell at all about the Rapture, the revelation doesn't tell about the prophecy in the future and so on. And many people think that I'm just heretic. For example, they just some text me some that you are, you are good at the fighting with atheists, but you're a very poor theologian. Then others have warned me that, that I'm misleading the people. But at the time when I realize this that I mistake it will be too late because we all have to go to heaven. So you know this idea. Yeah, but I suppose we have our Protestant tradition from 19th century and 18th century it's very little. But in 19th century we have growing of Protestant tradition and in Protestant we have almost it's like Baptist or for example slightly late. It's Adventist of seven Day and as you know, Adventists of seven days they believe in literal interpretation of Genesis of Revelation and they believe in literal all this idea and I suppose from these churches like Adventists and some old Baptists we have this interpretation. And so they also have their roots from 19th century like in USA.
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Bart Ehrman
I want to get to some other specific things about revelation in a second. But where are you living in Poland. And what's the religious situation there?
- [34:30]
Mikhail Abakumov
Is it very different in Poland we have Almost I suppose 90% and atmo is a Catholic, it's very Catholic country, it's very traditional country. So Protestant is really minority in this country. So and Catholic doesn't have some this interpretation of revelation like Protestant. So Catholic doesn't care about this detailed exegesis of Revelation and so on. So in Poland, this is not the same at all. So we have some different situation. And I don't see, for example, some, some pastors or theologians speak many times about this idea. It's like unique for Russia and Ukraine. But in Poland, situation is very different.
- [35:16]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah. No, it's amazing how when you move, because it's some places you have to say, look, the book of Revelation is not talking about that at all. In other places you're saying, you know, the book of Revelation is in the Bible. Right. So could you say something about how Revelation gets interpreted in terms of the current political situation? Just as background, I'm sure you know this, that in the United States, the modern interpretation of Revelation as referring to events is usually directed to situations going on either in the Middle east or with what was the Soviet Union. And so in the 1970s, how Lindsey's late great planet Earth was all about the Soviet invasion of the Middle east with this confederacy of European states and leading to an all out nuclear war. And then people had all these interpretations of things and various Soviet leaders, of course, became the Antichrist predicted in Revelation and Gorbachev especially, there was a book, I think I told you this on your podcast. There's a book written when Gorbachev, because of the birthmark, people say that's the mark of the beast. You know, there it is. It's right there for everybody to see. And I always thought he was kind of a strange one to cite as the, as the Antichrist in America because. But in any case, so the bad guy is always, you know, the, the person who's going to have a very negative effect on America. I assume that's not how it's interpreted over there, but maybe you can enlighten us.
- [36:50]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, it's true that for many people and even in Ukraine, we have some other things that, for example, Russian president is Antichrist, Russian president, it's like bad guy. And even in Revelation there is some name. I don't know how it will be in English, but the names like King of Rosh or Rush, something like this, and they're saying this is King of Russia and so on.
- [37:14]
Bart Ehrman
And the way they used to do is they. In the book of Ezekiel, you have Gog and Magog and you can work out Magog to sound like Moscow.
- [37:23]
Mikhail Abakumov
Right?
- [37:24]
Bart Ehrman
Okay. Okay. So Ukrainians have no trouble with imagining Putin being the Antichrist. Is that, is that how you're.
- [37:30]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, but not all. For example, one of the most Popular video in Christian communities. Video from Adventist of seven Day. And this video about this video has names for example like war in Ukraine and the biblical prophecy of the final conflict in world history. So and for Adventists, as you know, the Antichrist is a pop of Rome. It's a papal system system. And they say this very seriously. And I also felt sorry for pop of Rome because it's such nice guy but. And he is very supportive for Ukraine. But they, they find some bad photos of this. You know, webhop is not very good. You see this Antichrist, you're a nice
- [38:20]
Bart Ehrman
guy, even you can be the Antichrist.
- [38:24]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah. And this denomination claim for example that first that first beast who can have responsibility for selling, buying and so on. This is actually USA because after the second war the Roman Empire gave his credentials to USA and so now symbolically we have USA have power of Roman Empire.
- [38:49]
Bart Ehrman
Hold on a second. So the first beast, that's the beast from the sea, that's the Antichrist, right? Yeah, I mean that's the Antichrist figure. And so this is a common interpretation in Ukraine that the US is the Antichrist because it controls the economy and the beast controls who can buy and sell anything. And who is that in the world? Okay. Most Americans will be surprised to find out that we're not the ones who are on the good side. We're the Antichrist. Wait now. Okay, so this is a widespread understanding
- [39:18]
Mikhail Abakumov
in Ukraine among some denominations. For example Adventists of seventh Day. It's widely, almost all Adventists believe in this idea.
- [39:26]
Bart Ehrman
The seventh Day Advent has started in America. How does that work? Okay, but has the situation with the U. S support of Ukraine changed their views about this?
- [39:42]
Mikhail Abakumov
Not at all. It's strange idea in religion that religion is very. It's not like to some to have some progression in. In theology. So it's true for Adventists, for Adventists because they don't think that their theology is like can be changed, for example. So they continue to talk about the pop of Rome is Antichrist. But it's such a strange idea because actually pop of Rome doesn't have any influence on the political world today. So just like very minor figure. But they continue to speak about this and also they continue to speak about usa. So the general idea goes like this. The USA win in the war between Russia and Ukraine. So just Ukraine is under and USA power. And after Ukraine win war with Russia USA have unipolar world. And when we have unipolar world we have like USA can commence. And for example you can't sell you can't buy, you can't go on. And so economic will be under power of only USA and this when Antichrist begin to have rain.
- [40:54]
Bart Ehrman
So the beast is the USA and so the lot. Okay, do they actually map out a scenario that kind of precise scenario that US Support of Ukraine is going to. Ukraine's going to win. Then US Will control Ukraine and then there'll be battle with Russia and US Will control the economy. So you. Wow. Really? So US Is the US the is the ultimate force of evil in the world.
- [41:18]
Mikhail Abakumov
And why. Why will be final war in final war in the history? Because after this we have in the book of Daniel the two kings, the king of north and the king of south, that battle. And for. For these people, the king of north is USA is the Antichrist and the king of salt is the China. Because China is really very ungodly country.
- [41:42]
Bart Ehrman
Yes.
- [41:43]
Mikhail Abakumov
So. And we have like final war between China and USA in the final world's history.
- [41:49]
Bart Ehrman
But sounding increasingly plausible. Things aren't going well on that front. But it's amazing. And so this is a view that you find among some Protestants in Ukraine, especially the Seventh Day Adventists. But I think you said earlier that the majority of the population isn't Protestant, it's Orthodox. And is this creeping into Orthodox thinking at all?
- [42:14]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, Orthodox have some similar concern, for example about chips about unipolar control of. Of USA and especially for Russian Church. For Russian Orthodox Church. They almost all people see in USA Antichrist. So because Protestant is almost all Protestant for USA and against the Russian regime. So all Protestants see slightly different situation. Yeah. But Orthodoxy in USA like general. General concern for the government, for the religious freedom and usa it's like, you know, this is a beast. Or this is some. Some Bible on prostitution in Book of Revelation. Because we have in USA some lgbtq, we have some transgenderism and so on. And this is for Russian Orthodox. It's like the signs of the prostitution of the. This last figure in Revelation. So they just see in this slide this idea.
- [43:13]
Bart Ehrman
Interesting. So the horror of Babylon, the prostitute of Babylon in. In chapter 17 is actually the U.S.
- [43:21]
Mikhail Abakumov
yeah, it's actually U.S. or European Union. They also have this similar bad ideas for these people. Yeah, it's not almost all Orthodox things like this, but many Orthodox seems like this.
- [43:34]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah. Wow. Amazing. Okay, could you just say something about what your ministry is in Poland just so people can know because you're obviously. It sounds like you have evangelical connections. That's the form of Protestantism you're connected with. But you'd be One of these who are really a thinking person and isn't just kind of jumping on the current theological bandwagon, but on the other hand you are very active, I think in helping refugees and such. Is that right?
- [44:06]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, I suppose, you know, there's some accusation on Dietrich Bonhoeffer side, for example, that Bonhoeffer, for example, don't believe in literal understanding of Genesis of 6000 years old. And as I do, I also don't believe in these things. But the main idea goes like this. And when we see the really serious problems, like Bon Hofer, like myself, we see the war, we see the killing innocent people. So this ideas doesn't matter at all for all of us. So this doesn't matter how old is the orphan? Or what about, you know, contradiction in the Gospels. It's important questions, but it's not necessary at all in this situation. So we just don't think about it more time. Yeah, it's for myself also when I see such problems, such in Ukraine, such problems with people when people die every day, it's like, doesn't bother me how about contradiction in the Gospels or how about what is the age of the earth and so on. So it's my general understanding. I just want to concentrate on some very important thing, like for example, the sermon of the Mount, the teaching of Christ on how to trade people in this situation and so on. This is my, like my general approach to this, to these questions and some background about what happened to me. In 2022, everything changes for. For the worse because Russia announces general mobilization in these two cities that occupied in Donetsk when I live and in other city. And they announced general mobilization that all people should go to war against Ukraine. So we, we should all kill our other Ukrainian people. And this just crazy idea. And also they ban any religious connections with usa, with Europe and so on. And as you know, I have so many contact with USA religious organizations. So I was completely against the law in this situation. And I also have some disagreements about the Russian aggression. And I speak about this and so I am against the law and I have only, only free variant. I can stay in Donetsk and I go to jail or something worse or I can run away. And I decided to run away because I have no any option for me. So I ran away and left through Russia to Poland. And now I am in Poland, in Lublin, this city with. In the near. With the border of Ukraine. And since the full scale war coming on, we have so many Ukrainians who run away to Lublin and to Poland in general. Most of them Are mothers with children, large families, some disabled people. And we decided with some churches in some organizations, we decided to open some houses of refuge to these people. And due to some sponsors or most often it's just like just kind people, we can rent several larger houses. And in these houses we have some refuges. Refugees can live for some time in these houses. And we also collect and distribute some humanitarian aid in the form of food of some management. We provide psychological and spiritual assistance. So during this time we have already seen and helped hundreds of people. We have tons of humanitarian aid has been transferred in Ukraine and also in Poland. So everyone contribute in some way to this cause. Each of us individually can do little, but collectively it has a significant efforts. And one of the main reason why Ukraine is still holding on is because we have mutual assistance of people. We have like love for each other, we have love for our country. And this is one of the main reason why we can still live in independent Ukraine.
- [48:17]
Bart Ehrman
Mikhail, do you have a. Is it an organization? I mean is there or is it just kind of people getting together to do it?
- [48:24]
Mikhail Abakumov
No, it's actually volunteer. So we have just Christians or just kind people who, unbelievers who want to help. And we have some people who just decided to help other people. We have some connection with some organizations, but it's not, it's not stable connection. From time to time some organization help, some people help and we collect all of this and after we collect we buy something, we help refugees and so on. So we just volunteer who have idea about that we, we should help other people.
- [49:02]
Bart Ehrman
If people over here wanted to contribute to what you're doing, contribute some funding. Do you take money from the Antichrist? Is there. So do you have some source that you get funding from?
- [49:20]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, we have some font that, that was founded after the full scale war began. So we have some funds, some church fund and, and also some in this local, local area that collect some funds and after this we buy something. We can rent some things and we also, we also have some, some people who can donate on this if, if they want. So it's just. Okay. And anyone who wants, they can contact me. Okay. Or can contact these organizations our font and can donate everyone.
- [49:57]
Bart Ehrman
Well, I'll get some information from you when we get off the podcast and try and circulate it a bit here because it sounds like you're doing, you know, you're doing the really the real, the real work and sounds like it's, it's obviously such a desperate situation and not, not getting better anytime soon. It looks like in that context that you're working in dealing with women and children who are fleeing and having family and friends in danger. And you mentioned the Sermon on the Mount a couple of times. And in Jesus teachings he talks about love your enemies. Can you say what that means to you in this. In this kind of context?
- [50:35]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, that's really hard one, because even for many Christians, love for Russians, it's very, very difficult idea, especially when we see so many atrocities and killing innocent people. So some Russians do. It's very similar that Nets is doing. So we see this all the time. And I see from inside donates can also inside from Ukraine as Ukrainian. So it's. It's very difficult to love enemy in this context. But for my understanding, and I borrow this idea from CS Lewis, CS Lewis say something like this, that love of enemy, it's not like good feeling for enemy, but it's like general idea that you want that these people have some good, for example, that they have salvation or, or they have repentance of their, of their bad, bad doing and so on. So it just like good attractiveness to these people. It's not like good feeling. It's not like literally some passion for this feeling for these people. You know, it's. It's impossible. So for me, it's just like I want this Russian people to understand that they're doing very bad things. And I want that these people change their minds and that they have some with us, with us, some have connection, some relationship, some understanding of how we can resolve this conflict without killing and so on. So for me, love of enemy is this idea. So it's not just good feeling.
- [52:09]
Bart Ehrman
That's really, really helpful. Thank you. It's really helpful and noble because most people want the worst for their enemies. And it is a distinctive teaching of Jesus that it's very, very difficult. But it's helpful that it's not just having gushy feelings for somebody, it's actually wanting something good for them, which would be in this case, turning away from evil would be good for them as well. So.
- [52:35]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:36]
Bart Ehrman
Well, Mikhail, thank you very much. You know, people in America, we really are behind Ukraine and what's happening, and many of us want to give everything we can to help you all in your crisis. And thank you for what, what you yourself are doing, because it's obviously hugely important and significant in people's lives. So, yeah, it's nice to see a Christian who's actually acting on his Christian convictions in this kind of way. So thank you.
- [53:04]
Mikhail Abakumov
Yes, thank you. So much. And, and I should say last thing, that some people may have some wrong impressions that all Christians believe in this, in such nonsense. Yeah. But for some people like myself, I don't think that USA is Antichrist. And we love you say and we really appreciate you help because without you, it's all, it's all will be impossible. It will be impossible. So thank you so much for your help. Thank you for your support. And we see you say it's a good things.
- [53:36]
Bart Ehrman
We all hope for good things ahead for both the Ukrainians and the Americans, maybe all of us together. Yeah.
- [53:43]
Mikhail Abakumov
Okay.
- [53:43]
Bart Ehrman
Well, thank you, Mikhail, and thank you all for listening into the podcast. And this has been a special edition. Next week we'll get back with Megan and interviewing me about some aspect of early Christianity. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday. So please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out from Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis. Thank you for joining us.