Creation Myths in the Ancient World

Summary

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman

Episode: Creation Myths in the Ancient World

Date: July 11, 2023
Host: Bart Ehrman
Guest: Dr. Joseph Lam (Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Religions, UNC–Chapel Hill)
Main Theme:
A deep dive into the creation myths found at the beginning of Genesis, contrasting biblical accounts with earlier Mesopotamian creation stories (especially Enuma Elish), and exploring what these stories reveal about ancient Israelite religion and its relationship to wider Near Eastern culture.

---

Episode Overview

Bart Ehrman interviews Dr. Joseph Lam about ancient creation stories, focusing on the two distinct accounts in Genesis and their relationship to the broader tradition of creation myths from Mesopotamia. Dr. Lam explains how biblical creation stories were shaped and edited over centuries, how they differ in structure and theology, and how they both drew from and differed from older myths like the Enuma Elish. The discussion offers not only scholarly analysis but also accessible explanations for listeners curious about the Bible's origins and the evolution of religious thought.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Genesis: Two Creation Stories, Not One

• Genesis contains two creation accounts, not one sequential story.

  • The first story runs from Genesis 1:1 to 2:3—the familiar seven-day creation.
  • The second story begins at Genesis 2:4b and runs through the end of chapter 3—the Garden of Eden narrative.
  • "[Genesis is] a collection of different stories that are gathered together over a course of centuries." — Dr. Lam (06:23)

• Editorial Insertions:

  • Genesis 2:4a (“These are the generations of the heavens and the earth...”) acts as an editorial heading, appearing 11 times in Genesis to structure the text. (05:04)
  • Verse/chapter divisions, created in the Middle Ages, often obscure these textual seams.

• Contrasting Structures:

  • Genesis 1: A highly structured, symmetrical account with God creating the cosmos in six days and resting on the seventh, emphasizing separation (days 1–3) and filling (days 4–6).
  • Genesis 2–3: A more narrative, less structured story where man is created before plants, animals, and woman, with a focus on life in the Garden and the origin of human relationships.

Contradictions and Differences

• Order of Creation:

  • Genesis 1: Plants created on day three, humans (male and female) simultaneously on day six.
  • Genesis 2: Man created first, then plants, then animals, then woman from man's side.
    • “[In Genesis 2,] the man, then the plants, then the animals—...then the woman. I mean, in a way, it just looked... they just look like two different stories.” — Lam (19:27)

• Style and Theology:

  • Genesis 1: Transcendent, mysterious God (Elohim) who creates by speaking.
  • Genesis 2: Anthropomorphic, hands-on God (Yahweh Elohim), forming Adam from dust and walking in the Garden.
  • Divine names differ: “Throughout the first creation story, God is referred to by the Hebrew word Elohim...throughout Genesis 2 and 3, that is the second account, God is referred to as Adonai Elohim or Yahweh Elohim.” — Lam (23:06)

• Literary Purpose:

  • Genesis 1 provides a theological explanation for the Sabbath (six-day workweek plus rest).
    • “You’re establishing a six-day work week and a rest on the seventh...explain the Sabbath.” — Lam (12:42)

• Gender of Adam:

  • Unclear if Adam is gendered before the creation of Eve; only with the introduction of the words ish (man) and isha (woman) does clear gender differentiation appear (21:14–22:33).

---

Documentary Hypothesis & Dating

• Source Criticism:

  • Genesis 1: Attributed to the “Priestly” source (P), likely post-exilic, influenced by Mesopotamian thought.
  • Genesis 2–3: Attributed to the “Yahwist” source (J), likely pre-exilic, reflecting a more agrarian, local context.
  • Genesis 1 probably written later but placed first to reframe the book (29:08–29:29).

• **“What we have is a collection of traditions...there’s a tendency to want to preserve materials and add them side by side.” — Lam (27:15)

---

Ancient Near Eastern Parallels: The Enuma Elish

• Discovery & Impact:

  • In the mid- to late-19th century, cuneiform tablets from the library of Ashurbanipal (Nineveh) revealed the Babylonian creation epic “Enuma Elish,” dramatically reshaping scholarly understanding of the Hebrew Bible’s context (31:59–34:24).
  • “Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like to be a scholar in that second half of the 19th century, you know, when all of these new discoveries were coming to light...everything that you had understood before had to be rethought...” — Lam (31:37)

• Summary of Enuma Elish:

  • The world begins as a mingling of two primordial water gods (Apsu—freshwater, Tiamat—saltwater).
  • Creation proceeds from conflict: gods are born, rebel against Apsu, Apsu is defeated, Tiamat seeks revenge.
  • The god Marduk battles and defeats Tiamat, splitting her body to create heaven and earth (40:06–40:39).
  • A firmament (sky) is established — a motif mirrored in Genesis, but with mythical combat made implicit or excluded.

• Key Parallels and Contrasts:

  • Both Genesis and Enuma Elish start with primordial waters (“chaos to order,” not “nothing to something”).
  • The Hebrew word “Tehom” (the deep, Genesis 1:2) shares an etymological root with “Tiamat” (39:23–39:43).
  • Both have the theme of separation—heavens from earth, waters above from waters below.
  • Genesis lacks explicit divine conflict and is monotheistic, whereas Enuma Elish is polytheistic with creation through battle (41:22).

Purpose and Function

• Enuma Elish justifies Babylonian kingship and the centrality of the god Marduk and his temple (“the whole story...is all about Babylon and Marduk as the supreme God...” — Lam 36:06).
• Genesis 1, potentially composed in exile, reframes the world as God’s temple and the human as God’s image (47:09–47:30).
  • “Genesis 1 is a story imagining...we don’t actually need a temple in Jerusalem, the whole world is God's temple.” — Lam (47:30)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Biblical scholars have recognized for a long time, centuries...that there are two distinct accounts of creation at the beginning of Genesis.” — Joseph Lam (03:57)

“It is this sort of patterning, right? It’s clearly not a kind of scientific account the way we would understand it.” — Lam on the structure of Genesis 1 (11:47)

“The God of Genesis 1 is a much more transcendent, exalted God...The God of chapter two forms the human out of the dirt of the ground...it’s a more down-to-earth, if you will, portrayal.” — Lam (25:34–26:57)

“Enuma Elish...it’s the most complete account of creation we have from Mesopotamia...and there are features…strikingly similar to Genesis 1, but...it’s not telling the same story.” — Lam (36:07–36:38)

“Genesis 1 as sort of the Israelite answer to Enuma Elish...it's intriguing to think of Genesis 1 as one of the products of that intellectual grappling with exile.” — Lam (45:15–46:06)

“Scholars read the Bible this way because you actually understand more about what the texts are about...It’s more interesting and it brings it to life.” — Ehrman (50:11–50:12)

---

Important Timestamps

• Genesis creation stories analysis: 03:57–27:15
• Contradictions/order of creation: 13:36–22:33
• Divine names, style, and editing: 23:06–29:55
• Documentary Hypothesis (J, E, D, P): 29:42–30:29
• Enuma Elish and Mesopotamian parallels: 31:59–49:01
• Image of God and temple theology: 47:09–47:30
• Purpose and function of biblical/Hebrew creation myth: 49:01–50:34

---

Episode Tone & Language

The discussion is accessible, engaging, and scholarly but inviting, offering analogies and comparisons to help listeners without specialist background. Dr. Lam provides nuanced explanations suitable for “mere mortals” (as Ehrman jokingly puts it), and the conversation includes both technical details and broader reflections on why these ancient texts matter.

---

Summary

This episode offers a rich, nuanced look at the origins, composition, and meanings of biblical creation stories. By placing Genesis within the broader world of ancient Near Eastern mythology—especially the influential Babylonian myths—Ehrman and Lam illuminate both the common roots and unique developments of the biblical tradition. The conversation underscores how understanding the Bible through critical scholarship reveals a more dynamic, historically rooted, and meaningful text than traditional readings alone.

Transcript

[A]

When people turn to telehealth for weight loss, they're looking for real support. That's why more people are choosing orderlymeds.com orderlymeds connects you with real doctors and access to proven GLP1 medications like semaglutide and Tirzeptatide. No guessing, just a more supportive experience and all shipped directly to your door in discreet packaging. Do your research, ask questions, then visit orderlymeds.com podcast for an exclusive offer. That's orderlymeds.com podcast. Individual results may vary.

[B]

Not medical advice eligibility required.

[A]

C site for details.

[B]

Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman, the only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity.

[A]

I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin.

[B]

I'd like to welcome you to the special edition of the Misquoting Jesus podcast with me, Bart Ehrman. This week I am not being interviewed by Megan, I'm doing the interviewing. I've asked my colleague in Hebrew Bible and ancient Near Eastern religions and cultures, Joseph Lamp, to join me for a discussion about a topic that he's a he's an expert on and that I'm not. Joseph has recently done a lecture course, a 12 lecture course for Wondrium, the great courses on the creation stories of the ancient world. And this is obviously of relevance to anybody who knows anything about the Bible because the Bible itself begins with a creation story or two. As we'll see, Joseph has been around us here at Chapel Hill for I guess about 12 years. He did a PhD at the University of Chicago in 2010, 12 in the field of Near Eastern languages and civilizations. Those of you who follow the podcast closely will know that this in fact is the field that Megan Lewis works in. So Joseph knows all of these languages that Megan sometimes talks about and teaches a wide range of ancient languages from Hebrew and Aramaic to things like Akkadian and Ugaritic, which are very important languages. For anybody who wants to an expert on ancient Hebrew philology, you have to know comparable languages from that region and that from antiquity. And so that is Joseph's. One of his major areas of expertise is a Semitic philology. He has published an important book unrelated, I mean it's related, everything's related to this field. In 2016 he published a book with Oxford University Press called Patterns of Sin in the Hebrew Bible and he's written a number of articles and he's a high level scholar who is able to communicate to us mere mortals. And so that's why I wanted him on the show. So, Joseph, thank you for joining us.

[A]

Great to be with you.

[B]

So, right. Creation stories in the ancient world. I think many people have heard various kinds of creation stories, Native American, for example, or they might know some, some other stories from other cultures, from religions of Asia and so forth. But most people will be more, more familiar with what we have in the book of Genesis, which begins with creation. Scholars for a long time have known that the creation stories in Genesis are not simply kind of stenographic notes taken, taken at the moment. Can you just tell us something about some of them? Begin Genesis begins chapter one and then give us the kind, the very brief thing I think most people are probably going to know about. But what are these stories in the book of Genesis?

[A]

Well, I mean, yeah, so it's right in the beginning and makes sense to begin a book with the beginnings of the world. Biblical scholars have recognized for a long time, you know, centuries, probably at least since the 18th century, perhaps earlier, that there are two distinct accounts of creation at the beginning of the book of Genesis. So the Bible as we have it now, we read it obviously sequentially. It's, you know, chapter one, two, three. But modern biblical scholars understand two distinct stories. The first story is chapter one from one one all the way through chapter two, verse three. So this is the seven day creation story, right? Creation, six days plus one day of rest. The reason you have to link those first three verses in chapter two because those are the, it's the description of the Sabbath. So it goes with the first chapter.

[B]

Whoever did these chapter divisions wasn't paying attention to this modern scholarship on creation.

[A]

So I mean, the chapter divisions are a whole other story. They go back, I guess to the Middle Ages, you know, not too familiar about the exact history of that. But in any case, so we have that story. It's a coherent story. We can talk more about the details of it. It's a very intricately structured account as well then. And I have to, you know, try not to get too technical here, but I would understand the first half of chapter two, verse four, as an editorial insertion. So that's. This is the phrase if you open your Bibles, it says, these are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. This phrase these are the generations occurs, I believe, 11 times throughout the Book of Genesis. It looks like a kind of broader structuring principle, a sort of heading that was inserted at different points in the book of Genesis. So that's More of a feature of the entire literary structure of the book of Genesis as a whole.

[B]

Okay, so let me make sure I understand that. So you've got this phrase, these are the generations. And what you're saying is you have the story in chapter one, basically in chapter one. But then you have this thing about these are the gener. And you're called. I forget what you just called it. An editorial.

[A]

Yeah, an editorial insertion or a heading, something like that.

[B]

Yeah, somebody's taking a pre existing story or several stories and stringing them together into this longer narrative of Genesis. But this is a way of kind of connecting. So in the 11 places, it kind of structures the book in a way.

[A]

Exactly. And really the broader point is that we really should understand a book like Genesis. You know, a lot of ancient literature is like this. It's a collection of traditions. It's not one person sitting down in one sitting and writing, you know, chapter one through 50 in one go. It's a collection of different stories that are gathered together over a course of centuries. And then, you know, we have a form of the book of Genesis today. But that was the kind of final result of this long process.

[B]

Okay, so you've got this editor, so you got chapter one up to two, three. Then you got this editorial insertion. And then.

[A]

Then I would see. And again, this is not controversial within biblical scholarship, unfortunately. You know, the verse divisions fail us again. The second half of verse four.

[B]

Oh, dear.

[A]

Is the beginning of the second account. And it goes something like on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. And that account then goes through, all the way through the end of chapter three. This is basically the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the tree, the fruit, the serpent. Like that whole story.

[B]

So 2 and 3, basically.

[A]

Yeah, basically. 2 and 3. Yeah.

[B]

2 and 3 come from a different story, from a different source, meaning written at a different time by a different author than chapter one. Yeah. Okay, so just briefly, you know, we don't need to get into the. Into the weeds too much, but can you just say what. Why scholars think that, and why not just take the whole thing as a unit, chapters one through three?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it is. You know, many reader. Readers to this day continue to read them as a unit. I mean, there's a tendency to harmonize what we read. Right. But scholars, again, for a long time, couple centuries or more, have recognized many distinctions, differences in logic, content in basic assumptions between these two stories, between style. It's the sort of thing that you could suppose that it's one story, but when you separate the two stories and work with the assumption that they're distinct, you actually see and explain a lot more of the details in the stories.

[B]

Okay, so let's go through and. Because one of the things I'm going to want to know about is like, are there like contradictions between them or, or what the stylistic differences are? But let's, let's maybe just quickly kind of review what happen in the two stories separately. So you said the chapter one is this. You've got the seven day creation that climaxes. And so can you just kind of take us through what happens in this?

[A]

So, I mean, I think, you know, most people know seven days, right. Six days of God working and creating everything, and then he rests on the seventh. But there's more structure than that. There's a symmetry between days 1 through 3 and days 4 through 6 in

[B]

relation to each other.

[A]

In relation to each other.

[B]

So one is kind of like four and.

[A]

Yeah, one matches four, two matches five, three matches six.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the distinction is that on days one through three, it's acts of separation that take place. So acts of separation that create a sort of structure. So day one, light is separated from darkness. Day two, the waters above are separated from the waters below, making, you know, the sky and the land. And then day three, the waters are gathered to one place, separating land from seas.

[B]

Okay, so. So within that sequence, so God creates the light. You know, God says, let there be light. There's light. So God doesn't create darkness.

[A]

No.

[B]

And God doesn't create water. Water's there already, right?

[A]

Water's there from the beginning. So that is actually another really important point. Just at the beginning, there's all this water. But so even though God creates light, it does say he then separates light from darkness. It's a little bit kind of confusing perhaps, but that's how it's phrased.

[B]

But the darkness. Yeah. Okay. Okay. One through three are separations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then four through six.

[A]

Four through six are fillings of, of those structures. Right. So on day four, you get the sun, moon and stars. So that corresponds to light and dark. But, but these are the objects, the, the, the beings that kind of generate the light, if you will.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Day five is sea creatures and birds. Right. So it's like the inhabitants of the waters.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And also of the waters above, if you will. Like the sky, like the sky is imagined as sort of this dome that holds up the water. Yeah. So, you know, birds and fish, basically. And then day six is land animals, which makes sense because day Three was the creation of land. So day six is land animals culminating in humans.

[B]

Okay. So you get the sun, moon and stars inhabiting up there. Then you get the air and the sea animals. Where do plants come from?

[A]

They actually emerge on day three already. So as part of the separation of land and seas, at least Genesis 1, this will become an important point of possible contradiction with Genesis 2. In Genesis 1, the plants already are created on day three with the land.

[B]

Okay, so I'm just making sure I get my mind around this. You get light before there's a sun.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Moon and stars. And you get. Get plants before there's a sun, moon and stars. Right, so this author was not a big believer in photosynthesis.

[A]

Probably not. It's a deliberate literary structure, I think we can say that much. And it's this sort of patterning, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's clearly not a kind of scientific account the way we would understand it.

[B]

Okay. These aren't separate days. And does it mean day? Does it mean like geological period?

[A]

It's the word day. I mean, the Hebrew word is yom. That would be the word you would use for a, what we would call a 24 hour day. But I'm not sure that, you know, I understand the question. Like there are a lot of, you know, modern readers who are really perhaps hung up about whether it's 24 hours or not. It just doesn't seem like that would have been an issue that mattered to the ancients so much.

[B]

Probably not, but. But it also, I mean, he said he identifies these days as evening and morning.

[A]

Right. I mean, so I mean, they are, there are bas, you know, like days as we would understand them. Really what we have is a justification for a certain rhythm of time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're establishing a six day work week and a rest on the seventh. And probably, you know, in view of how I might tend to understand the historical setting of this story, it also has a religious purpose to justify, you know, explain the Sabbath. Right. As a practice. So God established Sabbath rest on the seventh day from creation. And so we should do that too.

[B]

Okay, so yeah. This ordering isn't just kind of an innocent, like, you know, saying what really happens.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In some ways it's trying to make a point.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Why should we as Israelites or as Jewish people, why do we take a seventh day off? Because that's what God did. And so justifying a religious practice.

[A]

Okay, exactly.

[B]

So roughly, that's, that's the first.

[A]

Very rapid.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so then what happens in the second story in chapters you know, just in chapter two, I guess, what happens.

[A]

Okay, so, you know, you spoke of possible contradictions, and I think we can see some of them. Again, if you accept the division of the story, as I articulated it halfway through verse four, you have this phrase. And not every English translation does it this way, by the way, but I have the NRSVUE in front of me, the updated edition, and they do translate this in kind of a precise way here. So chapter two, verse four, halfway through. In the day that the Lord God made the earth and heavens, comma. And so it's one long sentence, it keeps going. But we just. If you read Genesis 1, you just read this very carefully crafted story of creation taking place over seven days, right? Day one, day two, it's like this big deal about what happens on which day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then we get to this story where it says, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. Well, which day? Right. I mean, already there's this question. I mean, we just read a seven day account where different things take place on each of the six days and then the rest on the seventh. You know, it's a kind of, it would be a really peculiar way of phrasing it to say, you know, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's the same word. Yom.

[A]

It's exactly the same word. You know, the Yom, Asot, adonaiohim, et cetera, et cetera.

[B]

Yeah, so.

[A]

So, so it. Yeah, I mean, that's sort of one of many.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Features of this story that already clues, you know, scholars into the fact that this. It looks like the person writing the story isn't aware.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, this happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so what happens on this day?

[A]

And, well, you know, right away we see. So on this day. So if creation perhaps is envisioned as taking a place on one day rather than seven, it goes into this extended tangent of saying, before plants were created because there was no water. And again, that's. That's weird too, because Genesis 1 started with all water. And here it's like water wasn't there. Everything was dry. God had not yet made water to, you know, soak up the earth, and there was no human to work the ground, so there were no plants. Okay, so, so it's saying what hadn't appeared. So there were no plants yet. Then God creates the man, creates the human, the Adam. So the human is created first before the plants. Right. Genesis one, plants were day three, human was day six. Here it, you know, explicitly says before the plants came because you need someone to till the ground, to have plants grow. So God creates the human, and then he plants a garden. So then the plants are there in the garden, and then it goes on. So even just a few verses in. Right. Like, we're talking like, two, three verses into the second account. There are some, like, if you're reading carefully, that, you know, you do a double take.

[B]

So Adam. Adam, which is. I guess there's a question whether that's a proper name at this point or is it?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it really is. I mean, it's. It's kind of mythological language. I mean, it's really human with a capital H. Right. Adam. The word in Hebrew means humanity, human being. So it's a person named Human. So he's kind of both, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

All right. So he creates Adam, and then Adam is just an individual. There's one thing, Adam. You're not creating, like, a race of humans. It's an individual.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Then God creates a garden and places the man there to work the garden. Really, I. I think the. The way to Understand this Genesis 2, 3 story is imagining the man as a farmer. Right. It's really kind of. The story kind of has a setting that is reminiscent of, you know, the kind of subsistence farming, if you will, that we might understand from ancient Israel. Like the vast majority of ancient Israelites took part in. This is. It's a story explaining that. Envisioning the original human as having that role. The man is placed in the garden to take care of it. Yeah. So then it goes into this. Talks about the trees in the middle of the garden. It talks about these rivers, you know, kind of goes into a diversion. But then God recognizes that the human being is lonely. He's got no other, you know, friends, no one else to, you know, be with. So he creates the animals. And it specifically says birds of the air and animals of the field. No mention of sea creatures, just, you know, land animals and birds, and brings them to the human to see what the human would name each of them. And he does. But then, you know, none of them was suitable to be his companion. And then we get the creation of woman, the famous story of the rib. You know, God puts Adam into a deep sleep, takes out something from his side. We suppose it's a rib or something, and then fashions the woman from that rib. If we're again talking about the progression of these very pretty important elements of creation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Genesis one has plants on day three, sea and air animals on day five, land animals on Day six. And then humans, male and female on day six. The order is completely different here in chapter two, you have the man, then the plants, then the animals, but not sea animals who just aren't mentioned. Then the woman. I mean, in a way, it's not even. It just looked. They just look like two different stories.

[B]

Yeah, well, they sure do. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so in the first one, it looks like male and female are created at the same time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And in the second one, since these animals aren't very useful to Adam as companions, then Eve comes out of his side.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, it does kind of sound like Eve is the afterthought who's just around to help guy out.

[A]

It could be, yeah. I mean, it. It's obviously, there's a lot of debate about that. I will say, though, that there's an important phrase in chapter two that describes the woman, you know, as a helper comparable to him. Ezer Connecto. So it's. It's kind of. I think it shows up a couple of times. It's the way the woman is described before she's created. Right. So God saw that there was not a helper suitable for him or comparable to him. That phrase doesn't, to me, in the Hebrew, really necessarily imply subservience. The word helper. This has, you know, been mentioned, you know, a lot. The word helper is not a kind of subservient helper. It's. It's the kind of. It's the same word you would use if God was your helper. Right.

[B]

I see.

[A]

I see someone who can provide help to you that you cannot provide for yourself.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, I mean, there's not. I don't think you necessarily have to read it as the woman being subservient. That said, it does, you know, the man is created first chronologically. Right.

[B]

In the story. So others have said that, you know, God saved the best for last.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe last is the best. Right? Yeah.

[B]

Is Autumn gendered before Eve shows up? In other words, is Adam a man or is Adam an androgyne? Or what. What is Adam before?

[A]

That is actually a really fascinating question that, you know, so there have been scholars who have argued. I mean, the language is kind of ambiguous. Right. Because you have this being Adam, just again, that's the word human. Human with a capital H. And then his wife. Right. And in chapter two, you know, so maybe in partial support of possibly the argument that Adam was not gendered originally, you have, throughout most of chapter two, this man referred to as Adam, which is. I mean, it is a masculine word in Hebrew, but it could be a collective, like humanity. It's not until the creation of the woman that you get the gendered words ish and Isha. So these are other words in Hebrew that also mean. But specifically man or husband and woman or wife. So those words show up in this kind of snippet of poetry that Adam breaks into poetry. This is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She's be called woman, Isha, because from Ish she was taken. So there are scholars that argue that really, really wasn't until that differentiation that the genders came into being. But it's kind of hard to tell from.

[B]

From the story. Part of the problem, I would think, is that if Isha came from Ish, that meant the east was there before you Shaw was taken out. Right, right, right. So. But it's. But I know it is. It is debated and there's been some interesting feminist scholarship on this.

[A]

Yeah, obviously, definitely.

[B]

For a long time. Yeah. You know, we could go in a lot more of this. But you are pointing out that there are some fairly serious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Contradictions or discrepancies between these two. What about things like style and other. Other hints that long ago scholars noticed that, thought maybe there are two things here.

[A]

So I haven't even mentioned divine names yet, but, you know, that's been, you know, historically a major factor. So I think you can make a case even without the divine names. But it just also happens that throughout the first creation story, God is referred to by the Hebrew word Elohim, which is the word we typically translate. God with a capital G. It's a title, you know, a divine being, the one God. And throughout Genesis 2 and 3, that is the second account, God is referred to as Adonai, Elohim or Yahweh. Elohim. So the personal name Yahweh, which is the personal name of the God of Israel. Right. So that's God's had names in. In the ancient world because there were many gods. So this was Israel's God. You know, sometimes I say Adonai, because in modern Jewish tradition, you know, it's.

[B]

Oh, okay. So when you said Adonai a while a minute ago, you were actually translating Yahweh.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

So Yahweh is the tetragrammaton, the four letters. That is. So since it's God's personal name, it's so sacrosanct that you're not supposed to say it.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So people will. They have different ways of saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Without saying the name. And one of them is Adonai, which just means what.

[A]

Which means Lord in Hebrew. Yeah, but.

[B]

But in Hebrew, in. In Jack, too, if you're just reading it in Hebrew, it says yahweh Elohim. Elohim. As opposed to in chapter one, where it's just Elohim.

[A]

Just Elohim, yeah. And it's a consistent difference throughout. You know, I'll add there's. There's other stylistic features that, you know, that, you know, I mentioned that in chapter two, you know, the human being is viewed more as a farmer, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You have another play on words. Adam, human, and Adama, the ground. Okay, so this is a. You know, it's unmistakable in Hebrew. I mean, the two words are probably etymologically related. But in any case, right. The Adam is formed from the Adama, like the humans form from the soil. And he's kind of made to work the soil. So really kind of. It's completely. You know, he's tied to the ground. I taught Intro to Hebrew Bible last semester here at unc, and as part of the course, I gave my students my translation of Genesis 2 into English. And the way I rendered it there was earthling and earth. So, I mean, there's. There's. Yeah, I mean, there's different ways to do it.

[B]

It does have kind of a science fiction feel to it.

[A]

Right. Earthling, you know, just trying to capture the sense that it's very explicit in the text that there's this connection. So, yeah, I mean, so there's distinctions in kind of vocabulary, in style. So, you know, Adamah I don't think occurs in Genesis 1. I think it's only arets. But certainly the word Adama shows up a lot in Genesis 2 and 3. And really that the two stories that they have different presuppositions. Right. The God of Genesis 1 is a much more transcendent, exalted God. He speaks things into creation. Right. He just speaks, let there be light, and light comes into existence. The God of chapter two forms the human out of the dirt of the ground and, you know, breathes into him, and, you know, later he walks around in the garden. And, you know, like, it's the sense of, like, he's just kind of like an anthropomorphic being. And there's a sense in which perhaps we may even say that the God of Genesis 2 and 3 is kind of limited in knowledge. You know, like, yeah, like, why are you hiding from me? You know, where were you? You Know, it's a. It's a more down to earth, if you will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Portrayal. I mean, at least stylistically there. There is that difference.

[B]

Okay, so I want to just. Maybe one more question before we move on to comparable other narratives, but can you just give us kind of the very brief thing about, like, why you got two stories here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are they from two different authors? And like, if they're by authors is a way to say which one was earlier than the other or anything like that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I mentioned earlier that kind of the big picture is that what we have is a collection of traditions. Right. So I think that's really the starting point, that we have a desire to not jettison stories that have been handed down like, however it was. But. But like, you know, you have this story that, you know, was written at some earlier stage in ancient Israel, you might have a different account, but there's a tendency to want to preserve materials and to add them side by side. So there's obviously a lot of debate about this. But, you know, I would tend to see Genesis 2 and 3 as the older story. It seems, you know, to make sense in a pre exilic time period. So before the Babylonian exile. I don't know really have a strong opinion about how early it is. It doesn't have to be super early, but it does make sense in that pre exilic kind of ancient Israelite hill country, you know, farming context. Whereas Genesis 1, I think. I mean, even Genesis 2 and 3 has ties with Mesopotamia, but Genesis 1 really has a lot of interesting connections. It is, in some ways, seems to be responding to certain views of creation we understand from Mesopotamia. And so for that and other reasons, I see that as the later story. So that's the later story that's placed first probably at some time during or after the Babylonian exile, when Hebrew writers were in contact with Mesopotamia in a more direct way. And also, this is a feature of text editing, when you're the final editor. Right. The person who's able to place the story at the beginning that reframes everything else.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. So Genesis 1 is paradoxically, it's the later text, but that's because it's the later text that was placed at the beginning to reframe everything else. So the way we encounter the Bible today is partly through this Genesis 1 story, which scholars call priestly. So.

[B]

All right. So, yeah, I do need to ask this because some people will be wondering about it. A lot of listeners will know about source hypotheses for the documentary hypothesis for The Hebrew Bible and the, the traditional thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

J, E, D and P are thought of as four sorts. So, you know, and there's a lot of debate about those things these days. But within that schema. So you've got four sources that are called different Je. Right. We don't need to get into.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The details. But for those who do know something, are these two stories thought to be from two of those sources?

[A]

Right. So Genesis one, in that scheme, Genesis one would be P, would be the priestly story, the priestly creation account. And then Genesis 2 and 3 would be J.J. right. The. The Yahwist. And then you have the redactor in that first half of chapter two, verse four.

[B]

Okay, so the redactor being the two together.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But the redactor is probably someone from a priestly persuasion or, you know, aligned with the priestly outlook.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That put everything together.

[B]

Right. Okay, good. So, you know, when scholars started finding these differences and started paying attention, of course, you know, Jewish scholars from way back notice that you had these differences. But, but when modern scholarship, especially, you know, after the Enlightenment started finding these kinds of differences, they started thinking, you got two stories here. And they started somewhat doubting whether they can both be right because they're at odds with each other. And, and then, you know, sciences came along and, you know, all of a sudden you get, you know, in the 19th century, you get Darwin. And then you start getting people estimating the age, the actual age of the earth, geologists. And so science now is going after it. But also you start finding other accounts that sound. Look like they were written long before this. And by golly, it sure sounds like a lot like what we got in Genesis. Those three things ended up really kind of causing problems for people reading this as a literal account. And so what we're interested in here, I think some of these other things that really threw some shockwaves and when they found out. Wait a second, there are other stories like this before these.

[A]

Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like to be a, you know, scholar in that second half of the 19th century, you know, when all of these new discoveries were coming to life. Light. I mean, I just imagine like, you know, everything that you had understood before had to be rethought and re. Evaluated.

[B]

Tell us something about like one of the key discoveries or.

[A]

Yeah, so, I mean, I think it makes sense to start with Mesopotamia. Right. So, you know, in the second half of the 19th century primarily, there was a number of really important discoveries of cuneiform tablets, cuneiform is these. It's the writing system of ancient Mesopotamia. Clay tablets with triangular wedge images impressed upon them. So, you know, people might have seen these in museums. So that was their form of writing. They wrote on clay rather than on paper. You know, cuneiform was the writing system of ancient Mesopotamia because they wrote on clay. Remarkably, tons of their texts have survived in the archaeological record. I mean, if they wrote on some perishable material, you know, we'd have lost it all. But, you know, it's clay and, you know, kind of it stays physically in the ground for thousands of years. And so at that point, you know, already tens of thousands of tablets were being discovered, particularly in this ancient city of Nineveh. So this is in northern Iraq, modern Mosul. If you've heard of the library of Ashurbanipal, this king of assyria in the 7th century BCE, it's an ancient king of Assyria, which is northern Mesopotamia, who had this extensive library. It's the first systematically organized library in the world, basically. And that library was being excavated, coming to light starting around 1850. And in subsequent years, those tablets are in the British Museum today. It's, you know, close to 30,000 tablets that were shipped off to London from, you know, what is today Iraq. So among those texts were really a lot of the texts that are still famous to this day from Mesopotamia. Think Gilgamesh, right? The very first tablets of the Epic of Gilgamesh, including the famous Flood tablet that parallels the biblical flood. For our discussion now, there is the Babylonian creation epic, or Enuma Elish. Enuma Elish is the ancient name of the story. It's the first two words of the story means went on high. That text was also among these tablets from this library. And really already, like, from the earliest days of that field, the study of cuneiform texts, these texts were known.

[B]

And did anybody know how to read this stuff before they discovered these tablets?

[A]

No. So the decipherment of cuneiform really happened in the 1850s. Basically, there was, I think, in 1857, there was some progress. And it was, I think maybe the Royal Asiatic Society issued a challenge to four scholars to translate and previously unknown texts. And they worked on their own for three months. The four scholars submitted their translations in sealed envelopes. And when they compared the translations, they were similar enough that the panel, the committee declared cuneiform officially deciphered. Yeah, but there was. There were like, a lot of, you know, as these texts, again, thousands of texts were coming to light. Cuneiform was. There were major breakthroughs in terms of scholars analyzing it. And since Akkadian, like, the language is a Semitic language, it made it easier to decipher because.

[B]

Okay, so these are in Akkadian.

[A]

Yeah, these are in the Akkadian language, which is a language related to Hebrew and Arabic and so on.

[B]

Okay. They figure out somehow how to do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then you have this Enuma Elish, which is. You call it the Babylonian creation creature.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, we can describe it as the Babylonian creation epic because it's all about Babylon. Babylon is this capital city in the southern part of Mesopotamia. And the whole story, this Enuma Elish is the most complete account of creation we have from Mesopotamia. It was a text originally written across seven different cuneiform tablets. It took seven tablets to write the whole story. So it's. It's this. It's a very extensive story.

[B]

Do we have these seven.

[A]

We have fragments of all seven. I mean, I think we. I mean, today we have something like 150 fragments, total of, you know, different parts of it. It's a pretty. You know, as cuneiform texts go, we have a pretty complete picture of it. We have, like, 90% of it. So it was story written across seven tablets. The main character is the God Marduk, who is the patron God of the city of Babylon. And Marduk is also the God of creation, if you will. He's the God that establishes and eventually creates everything and then establishes the city of Babylon at its center, where all the gods convene. So there's a strong political element to this story. It's all about Babylon and Marduk as the supreme God. But there are features of this text that are strikingly similar to Genesis 1, but similar in the sense that it uses the same kinds of symbols, but it's not telling the same story. Okay, okay, so for instance, we mentioned in Genesis 1, you know, in the beginning, when God creates the heavens and the earth, there's water. The earth was formless and void, and there was, you know, water. And the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. So there's this. This picture of water, chaotic waters being there in the beginning. It's the same concept in Enuma Elish, except specifically in Enuma Elish, it starts with two different water deities. So Apsu is a male deity of freshwater, and Tiamat is the female deity of the saltwaters. And in the beginning, you have Apsu and Tiamat, these gendered bodies of water, fresh water and salt water, and they're just mingling. It's just this chaotic mix of these two waters, and then the gods are born within, like in the union of these two gendered deities, and they then create the various other generations of gods, and then creation proceeds from there. But that is certainly a similarity, a broad kind of conceptual similarity. Right. So I'm not saying that Genesis 1 is copying Enuma Elish, but I think it's not implausible to assume that the Author of Genesis 1 knew about this story.

[B]

So you have, in both, you have this kind of chaotic water at the very outset. Because I think today, if somebody's thinking about coming up with a creation story, they're probably not going to think chaotic water.

[A]

Yeah. I think, you know, that through. Partly through the influence of Christian theology, there's this concept of creation from nothing. And, you know, we have big bang and, you know, we tend to think like there's nothingness and then creation in these ancient accounts, and this is a very common view, is it's chaos into order. Right. It's not so nothingness into somethingness. It's the progression from chaos into order is the way creation is understood.

[B]

So back back in the Pleistocene age, when I was doing my graduate work, people were talking about Tiamat etymologically as having some relationship to Genesis.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So the word Tiamat, by the way, the word tiamat itself also means the seas. It's the deified sea.

[B]

Right.

[A]

S, E A. And in Genesis 1, whichever verse is verse 2 or verse 3, the word that's translated the deep or the abyss. Right.

[B]

The.

[A]

The darkness covered the face of the deep. That word deep is Tehom, which is etymologically related to Tiamat in Akkadian. Again, it seems like there are some common traditions, common symbols that are being combined in different ways. Right. In the two stories. Yeah.

[B]

So is there also a separation going on here, then? If you've got Apsu and Tiamat, there's.

[A]

Yeah. Now, I mean, I'll jump to later in the story, because a lot goes on later in the story. There is a separation. In fact, Marduk eventually has to fight Tiamat. It's like, you know, this final battle between the younger Marduk, who's like a later generation of God, and this primordial goddess. Marduk defeats Tiamat, unsurprisingly. He cuts her body into two, slices her up like a fish, and one half establishes the sky and the other half establishes the earth.

[B]

So God is separating, using something firm to separate the. The waters.

[A]

Right. So the body of Tiamat, but Tiamat is the salt water. So it's it means, again, it's like. It's. It's very similar to Genesis 1, where you have, you know, you're separating the waters above and waters below. It's just that it's personified in.

[B]

In English, the way it happens in Genesis is, I guess, God puts a firmament.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the idea, I guess, is that the water up above is what comes down through the sky when it rains.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Springs.

[A]

Right. And I guess there's holes in the firmament and that's how the rain comes down.

[B]

Right. Okay. And so. Okay, so. But it's a similar thing you divide up is the idea of a battle of a God is that.

[A]

Well, that's. I mean, so that's maybe. I mean, we could say that that is an interesting difference between Enuma elish and Genesis 1. Genesis 1, of course, is monotheistic account. I mean, it has one major God. If there are hints of other divine beings, they're minimized in the story. Like, you do have sun, moon and stars, which in some cultures, they're deified. There's a mention of sea monsters, I think, somewhere in Genesis 1. But overall, it's Elohim. God is the one who's in charge in Enuma Elish because it's a fully polytheistic story from beginning to end. Creation happens through these rounds of conflict. Right. So actually, you know, I skipped ahead. Before Marduk fights Tiamat, the other gods, they revolt against Apsu. They kill Apsu. Okay. Don't have to go into all the details. And then Apsu gets established as the underground freshwater ocean. So it's the groundwater. Right. So when you dig a well, you get fresh water. So that's why you have a freshwater ocean under the earth. Every single one of these parts of the story is explaining something about the natural world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. So they, you know, Apsu is like. When Apsu is killed, basically, it means that the God is rendered inert and it becomes a kind of passive part of the environment. Maybe that's a way of thinking about it. And then, you know. But since Apsu is killed, Tiamat. The other gods kind of goad Tiamat on is like, why aren't you avenging your husband? Your husband was, like, murdered. So then she get. Gets angry, and that's how the conflict between Marduk and Tiamat takes place.

[B]

Okay, you got all that. Then, like, does the rest of the world get created somehow?

[A]

Yeah. So really, the other parts of creation occur after the defeat of Tiamat. So you have the sky estab. So her body is, you Know, cut, split into two. Then Marduk creates the stars and the planets. It says he establishes them to kind of mark seasons and times. So there's the establishment of time that you mark by observing the heavenly bodies. He creates the Tigris and Euphrates. I think they flow out of the eyes of Tiamat. So the story kind of goes on to describe Marduk establishing all of the features, the major features of the world as the ancient Mesopotamians understood it. And then at the end, he creates Babylon, he creates his temple, the A Sagila, and all the gods, you know, convene there. And also they create humans.

[B]

Ah, good.

[A]

Right near the end, it seems like a little bit of an afterthought, but humans are there to, you know, like, worship the gods, basically.

[B]

Huh. Okay, but so are the humans created before the city, or is the city created before the humans?

[A]

That's. I think the humans are created after the city. But I kind of. I mean, it. The order is a little bit, you know, all the.

[B]

In all these ancient stories, you have this funny thing about humans and cities, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the. Of course, in chapter four of Genesis, you have Cain who goes off. You've got Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cain kills Abel, then he goes off and start. Founds the city.

[A]

Right, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Three people left on the earth. Exactly.

[A]

But so, I mean, I guess, I mean, you know, in the Enuma Eilish case and the idea that, you know, the gods already there, you know, they. They reside there.

[B]

Right, right, right, right. There does sound like a lot of parallels. All right, you get Marduk. Even though you've got a kind of a polytheistic system, you've got. You got Marduk as the creator God. He's. He's, you know, Yahweh in the. This case, Elohim.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In Genesis 1. And with lots of other parallels.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a possible way of seeing it is to see Genesis 1 as sort of the Israelite answer to Enuma Elish. You know, Enuma Elish, we happen to have, you know, lots of copies of it. It clearly was a pretty important text in ancient Mesopotamia. It was copied a lot. We have evidence it was read every year at the New Year's festival, the spring New year festival, the Akitu festival in.

[B]

So we don't have just one copy of it. We. Lots of.

[A]

Right. We have multiple copies. So as I mentioned, 150 fragments. Some of these are fragments of the same lines. Right, so. Okay, yeah, so. So we have multiple copies of Seems like, you know, reasonable to assume this was a kind of standard story. Right. It's sort of like the. The Babylonian account.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

And we're imagining the Israelites being exiled, Judeans being exiled into Babylon, be immersed in that world, their temples destroyed. Right. They are taken from their land. Genesis 1. I mean, it's. It's intriguing to think of Genesis 1 as one of the products of that intellectual grappling with exile. The other thing with the temple, I need to mention this. I didn't even mention this with Genesis 1. A feature of Genesis 1 is the creation of the human, the. The man and woman in the image of God. Yes. Now, that word image, among other. In the Hebrew, the word salem could mean cult statue. Right. It's. It's not only image, but it's also potent. It's the same word that would be used for a statue of a God in a temple. Like the repress, the. The physical representation or. Or the embodiment of that God. Like all ancient temples had, you know, the God. Ancient temples were basically the. Where the God resided.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So then you have the statue that. That is the embodiment, the presence of the deity. So the human being is the presence of the deity. So it's. It's Almost like Genesis 1 is a story imagining, like, okay, we don't actually need a temple in Jerusalem. The whole world is God's temple.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So again, that's not, you know, somewhat more debated, but I think it's an intriguing way of thinking about why the story of Genesis 1 takes the shape that it does.

[B]

I mean, so it sounds like the Enuma Alish is. One of the points is that. I mean, it's. It's Mar. Marduk.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

The God of Babylon. This is like the head God. There are other gods. But this is like. And it's gearing toward why worship of martyr. Right, right. Genesis 1 is doing that with Elohim, with the God of Israel. It's an interesting idea. So the idea is basically, they get familiar with this kind of story. They. And of course, they've got to translate it into their own idiom, which.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Now there's one God. Yeah, right. To be worshiped. They generate their own creation story related to the other one. Yeah, yeah. And that it's quite different from one that was floating around earlier, whether or not the Author of Genesis 1 knew the J story.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, so, like, you know, like, just to underscore that temple point. Right. Enuma Elish in Enuma Eilish Marduk actually creates the city of Babylon and puts his actual temple there. Right. Because it's still there. Right. In the Israelite, you know, exile case, there is no temple. So you actually don't have, as is often the case in a lot of these ancient stories, that God creates a temple for themselves at the end of the creation. But in Genesis 1, there isn't one. Because, like, maybe this God doesn't need one.

[B]

Yeah. But it does end in a sense, with a. I mean, they both end with kind of a religious emphasis. Right. Genesis 1 ends with Sabbath, the day you rest. And it's a day of worship of God. And in the whole Enuma Elish, it's going toward the worship of Marduk.

[A]

And the rest is also a kind of royal theme.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like kings, when they're. When they accomplish what they need to do, then they rest, they sit down on their throne. And so, yeah, we have to wrap

[B]

this up because of our time constraints. But it's. It's really interesting how, you know, how the historical situatedness of Genesis 1 affects the reading of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we're used to thinking of it as just this standalone thing.

[A]

Right. And I guess I think that is, you know, it's the reason that modern biblical scholars tend to read these stories in this way. It's not only that. You know, sometimes, you know, I. I think certain students. I've encountered others, you know, view biblical scholars that they're trying to, like, destroy the Bible or whatnot. Actually, you know, scholars read the Bible this way because you actually understand more about what the texts are about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's actually more interesting.

[B]

It's more interesting and it brings it to life. Because you realize if. If this is kind of arguing against the Babylonian religion that is sparked by that Babylonian religion, then you understand why it's functioning the way it is and. And how it's. How it's working in its original context. And it just. I just think it opens up interpretation. It doesn't shut it down.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's great. So, Joseph, I. I want to thank you for coming on board there. There's a lot more we could talk about maybe another time. Maybe another time. There are other creation stories out there.

[A]

Check out my course then.

[B]

You know, the other ones. So your course is. It's at Wondrium. Yeah.

[A]

Creation Stories of the Ancient World.

[B]

Yeah. So y' all check it out. And is it released as a great course as well, or both?

[A]

Yeah. So it's got. You can get the DVDs if you want 12 lectures or the one dream is the streaming version?

[B]

Streaming version. Yeah. Right. So, okay. Well, thanks, Joseph. Really appreciate it.

[A]

It's been great, great to talk with you.

[B]

This has been an episode of Misquoting

[A]

Jesus with Bart Ehrman.

[B]

We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on

[A]

your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out.

[B]

From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis.

[A]

Thank you for joining us.