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A
When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. Barth's newest book, Love Thy Stranger will be released on March 24th. But really, how much can you say about Jesus impact on the moral conscience of the West? As it turns out, quite a lot. And this week we'll be getting into exactly what you can expect to read. Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman, the only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholarly uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host Megan Lewis. Let's begin. Our inaugural New Insights into the Hebrew Bible conference is happening March 20th through the 22nd and I am thrilled to be one of the presenters. My talk is titled before in the Beginning the Creation Myths that Shaped Genesis and it explores the striking parallels between Genesis and ancient Mesopotamian creation stories, showing how those earlier myths helped to shape the Biblical account. To celebrate, we're hosting a special live Meet Megan AMA on Zoom exclusively for those of you who grab an NIHB pass between now and March 20th and use the coupon code MeganBonus at checkout. You'll hear from Dan McClellan, Joel Baden and more. Just head to bartiman.com hbconference on the checkout page. Enter Megan Bonus. That's M E G A N B O N U s to unlock a special discount and the instructions for the AMA which will take place in early April. I'd love to hang out, answer your questions and connect with you. So grab your pass, use the code and I'll see you there. Welcome back everybody to Misquoting Jesus, where today we are talking about Bart's newest book, Love Thy Stranger how the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West. We've also got our bonus segment Listeners Questions at the End where I ask Bart if souls were admitted into heaven before Jesus crucifixion. Bart, before all of that, how are you doing?
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B
Well, I'm doing great. I'm looking forward to that Q and A.
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A
It's going to be fun.
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B
Yeah. Okay, I'll give the definitive answer.
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A
Bart knows everything so we can just settle these debates right now.
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B
Yeah, but I'm doing just fine and I've been up in Michigan for a couple weeks and, and it's warming up here, but I'm about ready to go back to North Carolina and resume my normal reality. So. Yeah, it's all good. How are you doing?
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A
Good. It's also warming up here, much to my 8 year old's extreme disappointment because he's been having so much fun. Not even like making snowmen and having snow just sliding down the ice.
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B
Oh yeah, no man, that's right.
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A
Take a running leap and like surf on the I down our front hill, which is quite terrifying as a parent, but he loves it.
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B
Yeah, well, you know, I slid on the ice last week and it wasn't good. Yeah, I'm 70.
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A
Yeah, I fell over holding actually our four year old which was one of the more terrifying experiences of my life. She was fine, thank goodness. My knees would not thrilled by any of the process. So.
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B
Yeah, okay.
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A
I'm glad that it's warming up because everything else, a whole host of seedlings on my windowsill that really need to at some point.
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B
Okay, right. Okay.
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A
Okay. We have our icebreaker question for today. Have you ever said something in a podcast or an interview that you have forever regretted?
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B
Oh, no, that's a good one. I'm sure I've said a lot of dumb things that I would regret. You know, the thing is I never listened to my interviews or my podcast. The only thing I ever listened to is this. I list misquoting Jesus each week to see how badly I messed up the week before. And sometimes like, oh my God, really? But nothing like embarrassing, just wrong something like, you know, some factual thing. But there was one incident actually is many, many years ago. This is the reason I never watch anything like I, I do, you know, I do like TV things like the Talking Head. I never watch those things. And the reason is because, God, it must have been 30 years ago or something. I don't know. Sarah and I were just together. You know, we hadn't been together for very long. We were watching some documentary I was on and the topic came up about the Last Supper, the Lord's Supper. And they were interviewing me about, you know, Jesus last meal and, and about how it was, how it was then practiced in the early church AF after Jesus death. And I was talking about what was happening in early Christianity based on what we know from biblical sources and stuff. And I said that, you know, really it wasn't like today where like in some churches you take a wafer and drink some Grape juice. You know, it's. It was. It was really more like potluck supper. And I said that, and Sarah just thought that was the funniest thing she'd ever heard. She just started laughing at me. A potluck supper? What's wrong with you? She's laughing. They had a meal. They brought their food, they shared it. And it's like, oh, yeah, okay, maybe that's not the best way to put it. And after that, I'm just too embarrassed to listen to anything because they interview for these TV things. They interview you for, like, three hours, right? And then they take seven, you know, eight second or 12 second snips, you know, and so then you. They pick the dumbest thing you've said, so you. And you have no control over it. So. Yeah, so apart from that, I can't think of much because I don't listen to them.
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A
Sensible. I also don't listen to my. My things anymore. I used to when I actually edited my interviews. Now I don't have the time, but.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Do you listen to this thing? No. You're gonna say no?
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A
No, I am gonna say no? No.
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B
I listen to it every Tuesday because I want to see. Okay, what happened.
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A
That's. That's why I don't listen to it. Because if I've said something ridiculous, I can't change it. I. I'm just happy and not knowing.
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B
Ignorance is absolutely. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Okay.
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A
All right. So we are talking about your newest book, which is coming out March 24th. What is the main idea of the book? I know we've kind of talked about it, but I think it's a good idea to remind everyone before we dive into things.
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B
Well, you know, the. The issue in the book is that the. The thing that struck me while I was writing the book is that people in our culture, the people just about everybody. I know when there's some kind of disaster that hits, they. They feel like they got to help out in some way. Like there's a, you know, there's a hurricane or there's flooding someplace, or there's an earthquake, and you feel like you got to contribute past relief. And it's just, you know, it's not that everybody does or that everybody feels it as strongly as others, but. But an amazing number of people in Western culture feel like if people are in need, you need to help, even if you don't know them. And so people volunteer at soup kitchens, you know, where people donate to charities. And it's. And. And that was. That was not part of the human conscience in the ancient world. It wasn't like what people thought about. And in fact there's, what my book is about is how that it just was not taught as what something you should do in the Greek and Roman worlds that you should help strangers in need who are not connected to you in any way whatsoever. I mean, when you send money off for disaster relief, these are people you don't know and you probably will never know them. And if you do get to know them, you probably wouldn't like them, but you give them money anyway or you help out in the kitchen, whatever. And so the issue in the book is where did that come from? And I try to make a really strong case that in the Western world this goes back to the teachings of Jesus and that it's one of the ways that Jesus really did transform our world. Whatever you think about Jesus personally, you know, whether you're a committed believer, whether you're a non believer, whether you don't care, it has changed the way we think about how we ought to act toward one another. And the thesis of the book is it made a huge difference to Western culture and society.
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A
So when you were a born again Christian, how influential did you think that Jesus had been on the development of this aspect of the Western world?
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B
Oh, well, back then I thought, yeah, I was rather extreme. I thought Jesus changed everything. You know, those pagans, man, they were immoral. The Romans just, they had no sexual ethics, they're getting drunk all the time. They didn't care about one another, they didn't care about their families. You know, the Greeks, oh, hopeless, you know, and you know, and Jews, you know, they had really messed it up. It's just Jesus that changed everything. Yeah, that was, you know, yeah, typical conservative evangelical view that Jesus transformed everything in our ethical world. And that's just not true. So I'm certainly, I'm certainly not arguing that. I've had some people tell me, why are you writing a book like this? Jesus didn't change everything. What are you thinking? I said, well, I'm thinking he didn't change anything, everything to begin with.
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A
So did, did your opinion of that change? I mean, it's obviously changed since then, but when you deconverted, did that have an impact on how you thought about it or did it take bit more time?
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B
Well, you know, it's complicated because when I, when I left the faith, you know, about 30 years ago or so, I, I, I was genuinely afraid as, as a lot of people are who are questioning their faith. I was genuinely afraid that I would have no moral compass anymore because I thought that my. That my entire ethical code, my inner morality, was really based on my Christian faith. And I thought, if I lose my faith, I'm gonna. It's not gonna be. I'm not gonna have any way of knowing how to behave anymore, because that's the only way you know how to behave is if you have some kind of religious guidance. And I was generally afraid of that. And it turns out I was completely wrong. And I have people today who don't believe me. They say, look, you have no reason to be moral. Well, actually I do. And I'm. I'm as moral now or as immoral as I was before. And in fact, I think I have a higher moral sense than I used to and that it's not all based on the teachings of Jesus, but the teachings of Jesus really did make an impact on how I think about morality, whether I'm a follower of Jesus or not. So I've recognized that much.
- [11:07]
A
When did you decide that you wanted to write a book about how Jesus teachings impacted the moral consciousness of the Western world?
- [11:15]
B
Well, I had no. It was a weird. It's a weird book for me because almost always. Ever since I've started writing books in the late 1980s or I guess my dissertation, 1985, I've always known what the next project's going to be. I've always known what the next book is. I usually have two or three books lined up in my head, so finish this book, go to the next one. And this was not going to be my next book. What was going to be my next book now is my next book. It's how we got the canon of the New Testament, how we got these 27 books and not some others. What ended up in this case was that my most recent scholarly book, Journeys to Heaven and Hell, dealt with how visions of the afterlife in Greek circles, Roman circles, Jewish circles, Christian circles. These visions of the afterlife that we have recorded in writings where people see the blessings of the saved and the torments of the damp, whether you're Greek or Roman or Jewish, whatever, that these are being used in order to influence people who are living about how they ought to live now in light of what's going to happen to them later. And one of the things that I dealt with in that book was the issue that what you do with your resources, if you have excess resources, is going to affect your afterlife. And it affects it differently whether you're in Greek and Roman circles or if you're in Christian circles. And I had two different accounts of the afterlife journeys. One was pagan, one was Christian about how they were teaching different things about what you ought to do with your. Your money if you've got excess money. Charitable giving. So I decided after I wrote that book, I thought, you know, it'd be interesting to write a book on charitable giving for a broader audience to explain this, that Christianity had a huge influence on, on what people with wealth do with their money and a completely transformed society. And so I, I had that idea. And then, then with some suggestions from my editor, I realized, you know, actually it's directly related to this question of Christian love and how, how Christian love. Of course there's love throughout the world, always everywhere. But the ethics of Christian love are different from what you find in the Greek and Roman world. And then I realized, you know, not just love, but also like, so love. I mean, charitable giving is an. Is a mat. Is like a material manifestation of the idea of Christian love. But there's also an interpersonal thing that you wouldn't think ties in, but it does, which is forgiveness. The idea that you should forgive people who've done you wrong when they apologize. You don't get that in Greek and Roman culture or generally throughout, but it's a Christian virtue. And so my idea is to tie these three things together into this book. And it all started because of my interest in charitable giving.
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A
Fantastic. Thank you. We're going to get into what's actually in the chapters right after our announcements, but we've got a couple that I want to make sure I get out to you. Before we get much further into the episode, we have two special notes. First, on March 11th, that's tomorrow, Bart is doing his monthly spotlight series lecture in the Biblical Studies Academy. And the topic is Jesus and the Ideology of Dominance. It ties directly into the themes from Love Thy Stranger and explores how radically different Jesus ethical vision was from the ancient world. We'll be talking a little bit about this during today's episode. Bart, but when you talk about the idea, the idea, the ideology of dominance, what exactly do you mean? And why do you think Jesus, this rejection of that worldview was so revolutionary?
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B
Well, it really was revolutionary because in throughout human society, as long as there have been humans, I mean, for 300,000 years, the idea that most people have had is that if you've got power, you have the right to exercise it. And that the powerful should rule the weak. And that's why throughout history there haven't been condemnations of slavery per se. The slave supposed to be subservient to the master. Or in, you know, in gender relations, women are weaker than men, they're to submit to the men or political situation. If you're a stronger country, you have every right to overtake some other country. And these views were wide. They were everywhere in the ancient world, including Judaism, including Greek and Roman world. And Jesus taught something different. Jesus taught you should not dominate others, you should serve others. And Christians picked up on that one too. So it is part of my book. And so this ideal of dominance was shattered by Jesus teachings. And one of the interesting questions is how much do followers of Jesus today follow this teaching? How much are they against domination? How much do they think, well, of course it's right for me to dominate others.
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A
Sounds fascinating. Thank you. And as I said, this is a live lecture that's part of the Biblical Studies Academy. If you'd like to join and be part of the discussion, it is included in with the BSA membership. If you are not a member yet, you can start with a free trial@bart ehrman.com BSA. You'll be able to access this as part of your free trial and we'd love to see you there. It's a really great community. Second Announcement for the Day I'd like to announce a new course by Dr. Travis Proctor. You may know Dr. Proctor from his appearance on the podcast. I interviewed him, I think last year, or from his semester long course that he taught for us demons and ghosts in the Bible. This new course is titled the Gospel of Peter and it dives into one of the most fascinating early Christian texts ever discovered. Although it's not included in the Bible, it claims to be written by Peter himself and includes a dramatic resurrection resurrection scene with angels, the risen Jesus and a walking talking cross. We've talked about this a few times on the podcast, but he's going to be going into it in an awful lot more detail. A few topics that Dr. Proctor explores in this course are why it was exclusively from the canon, whether it predates the New Testament Gospels, and how it relates to docetism and what it reveals about early Christian diversity and Jewish Christian relations. It is available now and is currently on Early Bird special pricing@bart ehrman.com forward/gospelofpeter. As always, use the code MJ podcast for a special discount. Now then, back to your book Bart, which is very exciting. I can't believe it's coming out so soon, so I've been lucky enough to have a look at an advanced copy. You don't just dive right into Jesus teachings and the impact he has. They don't really come up until about halfway through the book. Chapter one is titled Does Altruism Exist? And chapter two is the Ancient Quest for Happiness. Why did you decide to start there?
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B
Yeah, well, you know, it, you know, one could jump right in with Jesus, which I suppose was what most people would do. But I, I got very interested in this very question of like, loving your stranger is a strange kind of altruism. Altruism's always existed in the human race. People have always done things for the sake of others, even at a cost of themselves. It's always happened. If it hadn't happened, the species would not have survived. Species that don't do that don't last because it's easy to pick off individuals if they're all individuals. And so you've got to function together as a group. You've got to have sacrifices in order to do that. So you have to behave altruistically. So I got, but I've got very interested in these questions of altruism because they've been studied at length by evolutionary biologists, among other things. I mean, Darwin was very interested in the question because it seemed like it might cut against the survival of the species. You know, the, the, that, you know, the, the strongest are the ones who survive. Well, then why would an individual sacrifice himself for another? You see, I mean, so, so there's, so there was that. But then there's, you know, there, there's psychologists who deal with this like psychological, large psychological literature on, on what motivates people to, to, to be behave altruistically. But there's also philosophical literature. Philosophers love this topic. Is it, is it even possible to imagine a purely altruistic act? Really good question. We're, we're like, you've got nothing to gain from it, but you do it just for another. Like, are you willing to die for another? Is it necessarily purely altruistic or not? Philosophers debate this kind of thing. So I got really interested in the altruism question, which leads of course to the question like, how do you behave? You know, do you behave just for yourself or also for others? And what's the goal of how you behave no matter what? So the second chapter is actually on what we. What people are ultimately after when they behave in social conduct in relation to others and to themselves. What are they ultimately after? Like when you, when you want something or when you do something, what's driving you ultimately? Not, not like peripherally, like, not for the Moment, but like, what's the ultimate goal? And it turns out the Greek philosophers dealt with that a lot and their answers are still relevant today. And, and their answers are not the ones Jesus had, as it turns out.
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A
I know we've, we've done an episode talking about this kind of thing, but for those who maybe missed that one, what that Greek philosophers kind of worked out in their philosophy that people were working towards what was their secret to happiness?
- [20:53]
B
Well, that's it. I mean, so, so Aristotle begins as nicopikean ethics, his 10 volume work, fantastic, worth, still worth reading and still studied in universities and such today. The Nicomachean Ethics. He starts out by asking what do people want? And you know, when you behave, what do you want? And so I, you know, if I have a student who comes into my class and says, you know, I want an A in this class, what do you want an A? Well, I want a hygie gpa. Well, why do you want a high gpa? So I can get into law school. Why do you want to get a law school? I want to be a high level lawyer. Why? I'll get a ton of money. Well, why do you want a ton of money? Because then I can buy anything I want. Why do you want to buy anything you want? Because then I'd be happy. Once he says, because then I'll be happy, there's no asking why everything else is leading to something else. This one is not leading to something. And so Aristotle argues that happiness is, is the goal people have and by happiness. It's a Greek term that he uses that is not easy to translate and happiness is not a good translation for it. But there's not another better translation. The term that he uses is a term that, the term is eudaimonia in Greek. And it means the idea is that you're completely contented with life. Like you're pleased with where you are, you're satisfied with yourself, where you're going, what you've done. And so there's happiness in that deep sense, not in the sense of a kind of a fleeting emotion. And so that's what people ultimately are after. And the question the philosophers, starting with Plato and Aristotle and then after them asked, was how do we get there? How, how is it that somebody can find that? Because obviously most people don't have it and most everybody tries for it, very few people get it. And so the philosophers try to explain how it's possible. And that's, so that's basically what moral, ancient moral philosophy is about.
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A
So after after looking at that, we stick with Greek and Roman, the Greek and Roman worlds for another chapter which is looking at love, forgiveness and charity in the Greek and Roman worlds. Then chapter four switches to looking at ancient Jude, ancient Judaism, investigating the Jewish roots of Jesus ethics. So how similar do you think Jesus teachings were to the wisdom of the world that he was living in?
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B
Well, there are, of course, lots of similarities. It's very hard to find teachings of Jesus that you cannot find in other ancient moral teachers. It's very hard, especially in Jewish circles, because Jesus was Jewish, he's raised Jewish, he was committed Jew who followed the Torah. And in the Torah, in the law of Moses, I mean, you get the commandment, love your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus was not the only rabbi who said, yeah, that's the heart of it. Jesus and other Jewish teachers said that the two main commandments are, you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. That's Deuteronomy, chapter six. And you should love your neighbor as yourself. Leviticus 19. And so other people taught that. And within the Greek and Roman worlds, outside of Judaism, the discourse on what, you know, that you should love others is very prominent. I mean, we're going to have. Our next episode is going to be just on this thing about what they thought about love in the ancient world and is a prominent theme within ancient moral discourse. But, you know, what does it mean and to whom is it directed? Jesus main emphasis in his ethical teachings was that love is not. He doesn't talk about love as an emotion or a feeling, as we'll see in our next episode. He sees love as an action. I mean, he's not against the feeling or the emotion. It's not that he's against it, but what he's interested in is how you act toward others. And in particular, Jesus thought that you should help people in need, whoever they are, whatever they are, it doesn't matter if they're related to you socially or biologically. If they're part of your family or your friends or your social group. It doesn't matter if they're the same ethnicity or race or religion or nationality. If somebody's in need, you need to help them. And that's his understanding of love. And it translates then into charitable giving. Because one way to help people is to actually give them the stuff they need. And it relates to forgiveness. Because if you're willing to let it go, if you're willing to forgive somebody without requiring a payment or a penalty, that's hard to do. Really hard really to forgive somebody without them, you know, making them pay a price for it. But Jesus taught we're supposed to do that too. And so, so these things are different. The idea that you are supposed to, to love those in need, whether it's because of a disruption in a relationship or it's because of actual, you know, physical need.
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A
What did Greeks and Romans do in terms of charitable giving? Was that a concept that existed or is it kind of new with Jesus?
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B
I'm Serena Williams and I'm healthier on roe. I've lost 34 pounds in a year. With GLP1's diet and exercise. On Roe you can access GLP1 options including the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss. Go to Roe Co Journey to see if you qualify. 14 to 20% average weight loss in one year in non diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight related medical condition versus 2.2% to 3.1% in placebo arm RX only to stay informed about serious side effects, go to RO Co Safety. No, it's absolutely a concept. Greek and Roman philosophers were quite clear that it's not a good character trait to be greedy and to be just lusting after money the whole time. They agreed that was not good. It makes you a horrible human being. You're not pleasant to be around, you know, you're not good company, you don't like anybody. All you're interested in your money. Nobody likes you because of that, and so you shouldn't be that way. So Greek and Roman moral philosophers talk a lot about money. For them though, the problem with wealth is the problem for the wealthy. It's not that there's need out there. It's not that people are hungry or starving or need housing or clothing. That's not the problem. The problem is that if you hoard your wealth, you're not a pleasant person. And so if you want to find this kind of happiness, you can't be that way. And so the reason to give money away was for the sake of personal happiness and prestige and status, which is understood to be good. That means that basically when you're giving your excess funds away, you give it to family, you give it to friends, or you give it to the municipality. The municipality you support the, you support your community because that will make life better for you and everyone else and it'll raise your status. And so the giving was to be given in, in those ways.
- [28:03]
A
So the penultimate chapter looks at what happens to this kind of ethical teaching of Jesus after his death. Could you talk a little bit about that.
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B
Yeah. So Jesus comes along and he takes this idea that you should give to those who are close to you to help them out. But, you know, don't worry about the stranger. Oh, my God. Yeah, do not worry about them. Why would you worry about them? And he changes it to say, no, you need to help those in need, even if they are strangers to you. So Jesus had a very radical view of this. It was a radical view because he, like other Jewish apocalypticists, expected that the end of the world was coming soon. The Day of Judgment was. Was about to arrive. And so Jesus has radical teachings. He. He literally tells people that if they have wealth, they should sell everything they have and give to the poor. People try to explain that away. I always have people try to explain to me he didn't really mean it, but. No, I think he really meant it. And it's substantially documented that these are his kind of radical, radical views of things. After he died, his followers kept the basic idea, we need to help those in need, but they softened the radical nature of it. You'd be crazy to sell everything and give to the poor, because then you'll be poor, and who's going to give money to the church then? If everybody did that? And so they had good reasons for saying, yeah, it's a bit extreme, but they held on to the basic principle that our giving should not just be to family and friends and let alone a municipality. That isn't what matters. What matters is people are starving to death here. There's been a disaster over here. This woman's lost her husband. She has no way of supporting herself. And they're these orphans, and you've got these massive needs. If we're following the teachings of Jesus, we'll give our excess wealth for that. And not only that, but they started saying, you know, everybody can give something to those in need. You could give a little bit of money, you could give a meal, you could just give some of your time. Everybody can give something to somebody, somebody in need. That became the rhetoric, the rhetoric of the early Christian preachers, that if you want to be a follower of Jesus, you're going to give to those in need. And it ended up having a huge difference. Not immediately, because Christianity was a tiny little group within the Roman world. Nobody even heard of them to begin with. But over time, they started making converts and more converts. By the early 4th century, they've got, you know, something like 5% of the population is now. Now who's now Christian. By the end of the 4th century, half the empire is Christian. In the 5th century, the whole empire, virtually the whole empire is Christian. Virtually the whole empire is Christian. And they all are hearing this as how they ought to behave. This is how. This is the lingo now. This is what people talk about. So much so that it just becomes common sense. Something that before made no sense. It was nonsense in the days of Aristotle, you know, or the days of the Jesus, you know, moral philosophers in Jesus state. But now it becomes the common sense and it leads to institutional changes in. So in my book I talk about how, you know, it seems weird to say, but it's absolutely true. You can show it. Historically, Christians invented public hospitals. They invented orphanages in the west, they invented old people's homes. They invented private charities dealing with disaster relief. They invented governmental assistance to the poor. These are Christian inventions in the West. And I argue they're not getting these ideas from Eastern religions or Eastern traditions or Eastern philosophy. This is an internal development because of Christianity. And it all goes back to the teachings of Jesus. So that, you know, the kind of. The point is, you know, whether you, again, whether you're a follower of Jesus or not, I personally, you know, I'm an atheist, I'm not a follower of Jesus. But I'm saying historically this made a huge difference and we'd be crazy not to recognize it.
- [32:05]
A
That's quite the shift from the wealthier people expected to give charitably within their own social circles because it is like, good for them personally to. Everybody should give something to help other people, whether or not you know them, because it's like, quote, unquote, the right thing to do.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah, it's a huge shift. And it's not. Everybody's kind of jumped on board even till today. I mean, you know, like there a lot of people. Interesting to me, a lot of people in a Christian culture, even people who are Christian, really tend to agree with the Greek and Roman moral philosophers that if they've got, if they got extra money, they're going to help out their family and friend. Their, their family especially, but then their friends. And if they've got a ton of money, suppose they want to donate something to the university. When they donate to the university, it's very rarely to help people who actually need the money. Like you don't, you don't donate money for the graduate students in the English department. You know, you guys got, you got $15 million. You don't donate for that. You donate it so that you can have a building built in your name with your name on it, right? That's what you do. And so that's, you know, of course that's understand, completely understandable. And I'm, and I'm not, I'm not saying yes or no to that. I'm just saying that's the way it is and it's not the way of Jesus, whatever that's worth. Jesus said, yeah, that's not what you do with your money. You give to people who are hungry and homeless, us who need help.
- [33:31]
A
We're about ready to finish up for our interview today, but I wanted to close by asking, are people surprised when you explain your understanding of how Jesus impacted the Western world?
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B
Well, they're surprised for several reasons. Yes. One is that I'm saying it because. Wait a second, I thought you were the one who's always like, you know,
- [33:51]
A
criticizing, saying something nice about Jesus.
- [33:55]
B
I know, exactly. It's like, and, but you know, look, I, I don't make any secret of the fact that I, I myself, I don't follow Jesus teachings literally. I don't know, I don't know anybody. I've never met a person who literally follows everything that Jesus actually teaches. And I've met thousands of Christians. But, but I do think that this idea that we should have help people in need, I agree with that. I suppose it's written into my DNA now like it's written to people's DNA because of the shifts in, in moral discourse over the, over the many, many, many centuries. And so I do try to follow the teachings of Jesus to that extent, but I'm not a, you know, I'm not a believer that he's the son of God who was raised from the dead. I don't, I don't believe in God. So people are surprised that I'm saying something positive, you know, about Christianity and about, about Jesus. And a lot of people are surprised because they don't think what I say can possibly be true. It can't be true that Christians invented hospitals and what do you mean? Jesus like invented love to stranger. Jews love strangers and yes, of course they did, but, but not like Jesus talks about. And I, I try, I try to show that in my book that it really is different from anything we know. And it really did make a huge difference in the West. It changed the lives of millions and millions of people, saved millions and millions of lives and continues to benef today. And even for people who are like real knee jerking agnostics or atheists, you know, who really do not like Christianity, it's a mistake to say that it's all dark just as much as it's a mistake for Christians to say that it's all light. You know, it's, there are good things, there are bad things, and we need to recognize all of it, I think.
- [35:40]
A
Thank you very much. And if this was interesting to you, Bart's book again will be out on March 24th. 4th. So you will be able to grab yourself a copy and have a read
- [35:49]
B
and you can fact buy it before that.
- [35:52]
A
Pre orders are wonderful.
- [35:53]
B
Pre orders are great. So like if you, if you are interested in this, you know, if you're hearing this, think about just pre ordering it and you'll get it then you'll get it right away. You won't have to wait.
- [36:02]
A
Will be on your doorstep on March 24th.
- [36:05]
B
That's it.
- [36:06]
A
Okay, that is all for today's interview. So we are moving on to this week's bonus segment, which is Listeners Q and A. All right, we have four excellent questions. First up, humor me. Imagine that you die and go to heaven and God is there. Ready to answer any question you have about the historical Jesus. What burning question would you ask first?
- [36:33]
B
So, okay, so this is presupposing that God exists.
- [36:36]
A
Yes.
- [36:36]
B
And it sounds like it's presupposing that Jesus is the son of God. I guess my first question is, did you really think the the world was going to end within your generation?
- [36:47]
A
That's a good question. I'd want to know that too. All right. How do modern Christian apologists explain Jesus not returning after nearly 2000 years? Are there any biblical explanations that apply to this seeming contradiction to the Gospel of Mark implying that the kingdom of God was near?
- [37:05]
B
Oh, yeah, there's, there are lots of biblical explanations. And the biblical explanations tend to be ones that, that are very similar to what people say today, even if they don't know. These go back over 2000 years. So there are lots of ways to explain it. Look, you could say, for example, that when Jesus said that it was near, he didn't mean near in his time, he meant near in our time. Many people think that because they read the Bible as speaking to them directly rather than being a historical book book. People understand that it's a historical book and think, yeah, Jesus really did say that. They can say things like, well, God has decided to give people some more time to repent. This is the teaching in second Peter that it was going to come soon, but God has allowed some time so that people can turn turn to him. That's also the view found in the Book of Acts. Another view that's common today, they're picking this one up from the Bible, is that when God says it's going to be soon, it's soon by his calendar, not by our calendar. And with the Lord, a day is a thousand, is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day. And so if it's going to be in a few days, it just could be a few thousand years.
- [38:25]
A
Were souls admitted to heaven before Jesus or was it closed until his atonement? Jewish and Christian traditions differ, with figures like Enoch and Elijah exceptions. And who, according to early sources, were the first souls admitted?
- [38:40]
B
Okay, so I'll talk about this from the Christian point of view. Judaism has complexities of its own, including whether the idea your soul goes to heaven is even part of the Jewish worldview. In the ancient world within Christianity, there were debates about. About this issue. Most people who have left us any records believed that before Jesus died, the. Apart from Elijah and Elijah, who were taken up alive to heaven, people went down to Hades or to Sheol or whatever you want to call it, that their soul, their soul went someplace and it was. Wait. They were waiting there, there. So there begins to be a tradition that ends up being called the harrowing of hell. It's a tradition that says that nobody could get to heaven without Christ having died. But it wouldn't make sense that people who, you know, people deceased before Jesus died, that they don't get a chance. And so the harrowing of hell tradition is that after Jesus death, before his resurrection, he went down to Hades to bring out the saints, though. Either those who. Well, yeah, the Old Testament saints, for example, or people who are good people, Jew and Gentile, or. And so this idea is that Jesus goes down and saves people. Then in this view, people are not being tormented down there. There's just kind of a holding pen. And there are different ways this tradition works itself out, whether Jesus saves everybody or just some people and who those would be and various ways of doing it. But the traditional Christian view was that people could not get into heaven until Jesus death. And in the traditional view, the very first person to get to heaven was the man crucified with him in the Gospels. In the Gospel of Luke, you have two criminals being crucified. One of them says, jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus says to him, today you will be with me in paradise. And so we have legends of this guy showing up at the pearly gates and angels trying to figure out who he is. And they find out, oh, yeah, he Was that criminal? So they let him in. And so he's the first
- [40:56]
A
final question for the week. In your episode on Altruism, you said that agape is not found in Greek and Roman literature. Where did Christians get the words? Or did they just make it up?
- [41:07]
B
We'll be talking about this more next time. It first appears in the Septuagint. This is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. And the word agape occurs a number of times. The verb will form of this agapao. So when you say love as a verb, that verb does occur in Greek and Roman circles, but not the noun. And the verb doesn't mean the same thing as it comes to mean in Christian circles. And so Christians are getting it from the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
- [41:40]
A
Bart, thank you so much. Before we finish for the week, could you remind us what we spoke about today? Today?
- [41:46]
B
Well, I have my book coming out March 24, Love Thy how the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West. And we've given kind of an overview, kind of a simple overview of some of the points that I make in the book and try and show how actually our moral conscience, what we think of as right and wrong, whether we're Christian or not, was significantly influenced by the teachings of Jesus.
- [42:11]
A
Audience, thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't you don't miss future episodes. Remember that you can use the Code MJ podcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartehrman.com. misquoting Jesus will be back next week, but what are we talking about next time?
- [42:30]
B
Well, we're moving to this question of agape love and the teachings of love in the teachings of Jesus and how they were, how they were different in key ways and interesting ways. And we'll get into more detail than we did today when I had kind of a surface answer to it. But but how love was such a central feature of Jesus teachings, the New Testament, and early Christianity.
- [42:52]
A
Join us then. Thank you all and goodbye. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast, podcast listening app, or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel. So you don't miss out from Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.