Did the Prophet Isaiah Predict Jesus' Crucifixion?

Summary

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman

Episode: Did the Prophet Isaiah Predict Jesus' Crucifixion?
Date: July 15, 2025
Host: Megan Lewis
Guest: Dr. Bart Ehrman

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the famous “Suffering Servant” passage in Isaiah 53 and its alleged prediction of Jesus’ crucifixion. Dr. Bart Ehrman explains how Isaiah is structured, the original meaning of the suffering servant, messianic expectations in ancient Judaism, and how early Christians reinterpreted Hebrew Scriptures in light of Jesus’ death. Ehrman challenges conventional Christian readings, arguing that Isaiah 53, when read in context, is not a messianic prophecy about Jesus but has a very different historical audience and meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Structure and Composition of Isaiah

• Isaiah is a composite work:
  • First Isaiah (Ch. 1–39): 8th-century BCE prophet warning of Assyrian invasion.
  • Second Isaiah (Ch. 40–55): Written 150 years later, during the Babylonian exile, promising restoration.
  • Third Isaiah (Ch. 56–66): Post-exilic period, reflecting disappointment after the return.
• Bart Ehrman:

  “Isaiah is an interesting book for all sorts of reasons...scholars talk about First Isaiah…Second Isaiah…Third Isaiah...three different sections written by three authors. But they have many common themes…” (04:39)

2. Themes Across Isaiah

• All sections highlight Israel's relationship with God, Jerusalem as a holy city, and the expectation for righteous behavior, especially care for the marginalized ([07:17]).
• They differ in focus: judgment for misbehavior (First), restoration after punishment (Second), and frustration with post-exilic failures (Third).

3. Understanding the “Suffering Servant”

• Location: Found in four “songs” in Second Isaiah (Chapters 42, 49, 50, and 52–53).
• Context: These passages describe someone called “the servant of the Lord” who suffers and is then restored, but always as part of Second Isaiah’s larger message on Israel’s exile and return.
• Bart Ehrman:

  “When you read it and put it in context, it's pretty clear it's not talking about a future Messiah…When Isaiah talks about the suffering of the servant, he talks about it as something that has already happened…It doesn’t even read like a prophecy.” (11:26; 26:51)

4. Is the Suffering Servant the Messiah?

• Isaiah’s Messianic References: Second Isaiah does refer to a “messiah”—but it's Cyrus, the Persian king who allowed exiles to return, not a Jewish king or Jesus.
• Bart Ehrman:

  “He talks about a messiah who will help bring salvation…He tells you his name. It’s Cyrus, the king of Persia…He literally calls him the Mashiach, the Messiah.” (14:40)

5. Was Messianic Suffering Expected in Judaism?

• No expectation of a suffering messiah: Pre-Christian Jewish texts do not interpret Isaiah 53 as a prophecy about a suffering messiah. The Jewish Messiah was seen as a victorious leader, not one who would be killed ([22:22]).
• Bart Ehrman:

  “There was not a tradition at all within Judaism of a future suffering Messiah prior to Christianity…the suffering Messiah was a nonsensical term…” (22:22)

6. Christian Use and Reinterpretation

• Early Christian Readings: By the time the New Testament was written, Christians were reading Isaiah 53 as predicting Jesus. The Book of Acts (ch. 8) and 1 Peter show this.
• Connection Between Jesus’ Death and Scripture: The idea that Jesus’ suffering was necessary only crystallized after his crucifixion, leading early Christians to search for Hebrew Bible passages like Isaiah 53 to explain his death theologically ([35:04]).
• Bart Ehrman:

  “They started saying Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, was always about Jesus. And they basically convinced every Christian for the last 2,000 years that that's the case…” (35:04)

7. Who Is the Suffering Servant?

• Isaiah himself identifies the servant as Israel:

  “God is speaking to the servant who has suffered and is going to be vindicated. And he says, you are my servant, O Israel…So, you know, Isaiah himself tells you this is Israel.” (26:51)

• Metaphorical Language: It's common in the Bible to refer to a collective (Israel) as an individual (the servant).

8. Sacrificial Motif and Jewish Practice

• Sacrifice in Jewish Tradition: Sacrificial language (e.g., dying for sins) was standard in temple practice and is used metaphorically in Isaiah to refer to Israel's suffering in exile for the sins of the past.
• Later Influence: The motif of the righteous suffering for others recurs in later Jewish texts (e.g., 4 Maccabees) and is absorbed into Christian theology ([32:22]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Megan Lewis on growing up with Isaiah 53:

  “I can't read that without my brain screaming it's Jesus. But does it actually predict Jesus' crucifixion?” (00:30)

• On Christian expectations:

  “You cannot read Isaiah 53… and not think Jesus… because we've been told this is about Jesus.” – Bart Ehrman (10:10)

• Messiah in Isaiah is Cyrus:

  “He tells you his name. It’s Cyrus, the king of Persia…He literally calls him the Mashiach, the Messiah.” – Bart Ehrman (14:40)

• Prophetic context:

  “In every case they're talking about stuff that's going to happen very soon in their lifetimes…not talking about things that are going to happen centuries later.” – Bart Ehrman (12:51)

• On the suffering servant:

  “[Isaiah] says…you are my servant, O Israel…So, you know, Isaiah himself tells you this is Israel.” (26:51)

• Christian reinterpretation:

  “They started saying Isaiah 53 is about Jesus…And they basically convinced every Christian for the last 2,000 years that that's the case…” – Bart Ehrman (35:04)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:39] – The structure of Isaiah explained
• [08:28] – The suffering servant passages
• [10:10] – Bart's initial assumptions about Isaiah 53 and Jesus
• [14:40] – Second Isaiah’s Messiah is Cyrus
• [22:22] – No suffering messiah expectation in ancient Judaism
• [23:50] – Evidence of early Christian use: Acts 8 and 1 Peter
• [26:51] – Who is the servant? (Israel, not the messiah)
• [32:22] – Sacrificial motifs in Jewish and Christian traditions
• [35:04] – How early Christians used Isaiah 53 to interpret Jesus’ death
• [42:01] – Bart's soapbox: On simplistic answers to suffering

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Bart’s Soapbox ([42:01]):

Topic: The Problem of Suffering and Easy Theological Answers

• Critique of attempts (notably by philosopher Richard Swinburne) to justify suffering (like child starvation or the Holocaust) as a means to improve others' character.

  “To live in the ivory tower and to come up with explanations for things that are horrible so that you don't think they're as horrible anymore, but they're noble. I'm sorry, that is not humane, and it's not human.” (42:01)

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Final Summary ([46:02])

• Second Isaiah was written to assure exiled Judahites that God would save them after their suffering— not to prophesy Jesus.
• Isaiah 53, despite sounding like a description of Jesus’ crucifixion, historically referred to Israel’s suffering and vindication, not a future messiah.
• Christian interpretation made Isaiah 53 about Jesus only after the crucifixion, as a way to explain his unexpected death.
• Context is key: When read in context, Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy about Jesus’ crucifixion.

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Next Week’s Topic

• Discussion on the theory that Jesus was a political “zealot” seeking to overthrow the Romans.

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For further learning, Bart Ehrman’s free course “Did Jesus Really Exist?” is forthcoming. More information available at bartehrman.com.

Notable Closing

“If you actually read it and read the entire context, read all of second Isaiah, it’s clear this is not a messianic prediction of Jesus crucifixion.” – Bart Ehrman (46:02)

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If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe and check out future installments of “Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman.”

Transcript

[Bart Ehrman]

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[Megan Lewis]

But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him. And by his wounds we are healed. That's a passage from the book of Isaiah and I can't read that without my brain screaming it's Jesus. But does it actually predict Jesus crucifixion? Or is it more that Jesus came to be understood as a sacrifice because of the familiarity early Christians had with this book of the Hebrew Bible. Today, Dr. Bart Ehrman talks to me about Jewish prophecy, how Christians reuse it, and I don't know what else because I didn't actually finish writing this. So I'm ad libbing and it's not going well. So we're gonna just take 30 seconds to finish writing that.

[Bart Ehrman]

I think you need to leave that in, baby. That's good. Just leave it in.

[Megan Lewis]

All right. But says leave it. So we're gonna leave it.

[Bart Ehrman]

Why not? Oh Lord.

[Megan Lewis]

It's gonna be a good one. Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin. Hello everyone and welcome back to Misquoting Jesus. I'm sorry for that introduction. That is why I shouldn't work late at night because I was convinced I'd finished that. Anyway, we're talking about Isaiah 50, Isaiah, Isaiah 53 and whether or not it predicts Jesus and also what the Jewish people were looking for in a Messiah. You know, tall girl looking six two, ability to cook. Usually on. On my list of things. Not for Ms. Either. That's more for, you know, husband stuff. Anyway, I. I clearly didn't get enough sleep tonight last night.

[Bart Ehrman]

But.

[Megan Lewis]

Hi. You should just interview yourself because I am not doing a good job.

[Bart Ehrman]

Great. I think, I think we should go on with it. I think you should just do a monologue. This entire one. This, this is good. So far. Let me tell you. Yeah, I think our talks are always interesting, but this one's setting,

[Megan Lewis]

this one certainly promises to be different. Let's go with different. One of the other podcasts I host, the reading party. We open with usually me recapping whatever book we've read or show we've watched. And I can go for a while and it's usually me just talking about whatever it is that struck me as being weird or interesting and my co host sitting there, muted, laughing and trying not to fall off her chair. Okay, yeah, not sure if that's a good thing.

[Bart Ehrman]

Anyway, I'm laughing, but I'm not muted. I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm, I'm in, I'm in Wimbledon and the tournament started today, so it's very exciting around the village of Wimbledon. So yeah, it's all good.

[Megan Lewis]

Excellent. I remember my mum watching Wimbledon when I was a kid. It's the only sport she ever showed any interest in.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Lewis]

So, okay, we also today, as well as talking about Isaiah, I keep saying that Isaiah, Isaiah 53. We're also going to be looking at or talking about a couple of things we have coming up, Bart's Did Jesus really Exist? Course. And then we've got a new course for the Biblical Studies Academy to announce as well with Dr. Joel Baden, which I think is going to be really fantastic. Thank you, Kat. Yes. And then our bonus segment today is a Bart soapbox, which we haven't done for a while because we wanted to make sure we weren't recovering old territory. But we finally have a list so we can double check that he's not going back over things he's already spoken about. So we're going to be doing that. All right, now I've mentioned it a couple of times in my incoherent ramblings so far this morning. So for those who are unfamiliar with it, what is the book of Isaiah?

[Bart Ehrman]

Okay, so Isaiah is one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. By major, when people call them that in the English Bible tradition, it just means it's one of the long prophets, of which there are five. And Isaiah is the first of these, and Jeremiah and Ezekiel, etc. So Isaiah is an interesting book for all sorts of reasons. I mean, it's a fantastic book. It's a very powerful book. There are passages that are just jaw droppingly good. But one thing that scholars have recognized since the 19th century is that this one book of Isaiah actually is a composite work that there are three different sections of this book. Written in three different time periods by three different authors. And so scholars talk about First Isaiah, which is the chapters one through 39. Pretty much there are some elements, probably not from Isaiah, but Isaiah chapters 1 through 39 is first Isaiah that was written, most of that is written by a prophet from the 8th century BCE. So one of the earliest writings of the Hebrew Bible, one of the earliest prophets, Isaiah of Jerusalem, predicting that the nation of Assyria is going to be attacking especially the northern kingdom of Israel and wiping it out if people don't change. Starting in chapter 40, it's a different author, completely different theme in chapter 40 through 55. Different author living about 150 years later who scholars call second Isaiah. In this book the presupposition is that Assyria has already destroyed the northern kingdom and the Babylonians have destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah. And Second Isaiah is written by somebody who along with other elites among in the, in Judah, have been taken back to Babylon in exile. So it's during the Babylonian exile and it's not predicting judgment, it's predicting that God is now going to return the exiles to Judah, they can rebuild their country again. That goes up to chapter 55 and then chapters 56 through 66, our third Isaiah written later, after the exiles have come back into the land. And Third Isaiah is a little bit upset that things haven't gone as well as hoped for. And so we have these three different sections written by three authors. But they have many common themes in terms of their theological views, their insights, sites and things. It's just that they're clearly written at different, different time periods.

[Megan Lewis]

What are some of the, the common themes that different sections have?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, they all think of God as the, the, the, the God who is over all of all of Israel, that Jerusalem is his holy city, that he expects his people to behave in appropriate ways, especially in first Isaiah, they need to take care of the poor and the oppressed and the orphan and they're not behaving the way God wants them to. And so he's going to judge them. Second Isaiah agrees that God had to judge them for their sins, but now that they've paid the price by being in exile, he's going to bring salvation to them and reward them. And then Third Isaiah agrees with all that, but the people have botched it again and they're not doing as well as they're supposed to do. And so it's this kind of continuum that takes place over well over a century, probably over a couple hundred years almost.

[Megan Lewis]

Now the section that we're going to be looking at a little later on is Isaiah 53, and it's a. What's known as a suffering servant passage. Could you talk a little bit about what that actually means? What's a suffering servant? And. And where they occur in. In the Hebrew Bible.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. So the suffering servant is a term used by. By this author, Second Isaiah, the suffering servants found. Technically, that term is found only in second Isaiah. There are four passages that are called the songs of the suffering servant. That's what scholars call them. And there are four passages that. Chapter 42 and chapter 49, chapter 50, and then the last part of chapter 52 into chapter 53. So we're going to be talking about that one, especially chapters 52 and 53. But it's the fourth of a number of passages that are referring to somebody called the servant of the Lord. And in these passages, clear that the servant has suffered and God is now going to restore him, going to bring salvation to this servant. And so these four passages all cohere together, and they all cohere within the message of Second Isaiah itself, chapters 40 through 55. That's very important to understand when we're going to be talking about Isaiah 53. This is not an isolated section that's separated from everything else. You have to read this entire part, the entire thing of second Isaiah to understand really what's going on in Isaiah 53.

[Megan Lewis]

So this passage, these sets of passages are often taken to be talking about Jesus and predict his. His coming and his crucifixion by Christians. When did you start to think critically about whether they actually were talking about Jesus or not?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, you know, you're right. You cannot read Isaiah 53. I mean, you said you can't, and I know I can't. And I don't know any student I've ever had who can read Isaiah 53 and not think Jesus. I mean, it just. What it says is, you know, it has these verses about, you know, he suffered for our iniquities, he's bruised for our transgressions. The punishment for our peace was upon him. By his. His wounds we have been healed. You know, it just. You can't read this and not think about the crucifixion because we've been raised by, you know, we've been told this is about Jesus. And so you just. You can't read it. And of course, you know, when the Gospel writers wrote their accounts of Jesus dying, they knew Isaiah 53. And so. And they knew other passages in the Old Testament that they thought were predictions of Jesus. And so obviously they told their stories about Jesus in light of these other passages such as Isaiah 53. And so it makes it really hard to read these passages passage read Isaiah 53 without thinking of Jesus, Jesus, crucifixion.

[Megan Lewis]

So when, when did you, or when abouts in your academic career did you start to think, hang on, this is maybe, maybe not, maybe not about Jesus after all.

[Bart Ehrman]

Okay, so I'm supposed to answer the question, right? Okay, yeah, right. The question was, I mean, you can

[Megan Lewis]

say whatever you want.

[Bart Ehrman]

I think, I'm thinking we talk about anything in this one. So yeah, so I, you know, I just assumed from the time I read Isaiah 53 when I was a teenager, up through college really until I went to seminary, I just assumed it was a messianic prophecy about Jesus because that's the assumption and that's just what everybody assumes and that's what everybody says who's in the church. And so you just assume. That's right. It wasn't until I was a graduate student, probably my second year of my master's program at Princeton Theological Seminary where I went where the, the professors were, they were believing Christians. Most of them were ordained minister or active in the churches, but they were also good critical scholars. And it became clear, studying Isaiah carefully, critically, and just reading the whole thing, which people don't do, but they should, when you read it and put it in context, it's pretty clear it's not talking about a future Messiah. And so that's, I think I recognized it maybe my second or third year and it was a, it was a real revelation to me because it took a long time to get my mind around it, that it could be about something else. But you know, when you read it in its context, it's about something else, as we'll see.

[Megan Lewis]

So does second Isaiah make any prophecies about the Messiah or otherwise?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, so, so let me, let me say something more broadly about this. We've talked a little bit before on the, on the podcast about these, these prophets in the Hebrew Bible which include Isaiah and Jeremiah, Ezekiel, but they also include the, the so called minor prophets. There are 12 of those, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, and, and these prophets do predict what's going to happen in the future. But in every case they're talking about stuff that's going to happen very soon in their lifetimes. In almost every instance, what's going on is that the prophets are warning the people that they've done things wrong and there's going to be a punishment and they need to turn back to God or it's going to be very nasty for them. And in many of them, they also then go on to predict that once they've been punished, they'll. It'll be okay. And so you get prophets like Isaiah and Amos that are talking about very specific situations that are happening in their own day. First Isaiah. It's quite clear Isaiah will tell you which king is ruling at the time, which king of Judah is ruling, for example, or what king of Israel. And he, and he'll say what, what is about to happen. And you know, the Assyrians are going to come in, they're going to wipe you out. And it's to going, he's talking about something that hasn't happened yet, but he's not talking about things that are going to happen centuries later. He's delivering a message to his people that they need to shape up. And so there are prophecies like that, and there are prophecies sometimes about predictions about individual people as well.

[Megan Lewis]

Does he ever make predictions about a coming messiah or some kind of heroic figure that, that we could use to kind of compare with the suffering servants?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, so this is good. This is the really interesting thing that I had no idea about, guys. I just had no idea about. He actually does talk about a messiah. So he talks about a messiah who will, who will help bring salvation to the people of God. And he tells you his name. It's Cyrus, the king of Persia. He literally calls him the Mashiach, the Messiah. Mashiach in Hebrew means the anointed one. It is used of the kings of Israel because during their coronation ceremonies they were anointed with oil. And so they're the specially favored ones of God through whom God works his will. But when second Isaiah is writing, there's no king of Israel anymore or of Judah, because Israel's the northern part of Israel. Israel itself was destroyed by the Assyrians. The no more king. The Judeans in the south were. The Jew were. The people of Judah were destroyed. The nation of Judah is destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE and they took the king off the throne. There's no king, no, no Jewish king, no Israelite king anymore. So Isaiah predicts that there is going to be somebody that God uses to bring salvation to his people. And what's going to happen is that the Persian king, Cyrus, who's a complete pagan, okay, he's not a follower of the God of Israel, but God's going to use him to destroy the Babylonians and to set free the exiles so that they can return. And so he talks about this in a couple places, chapter 42 etc, where he actually named Cyrus and calls him the Messiah. He does not predict a future Jewish Messiah though.

[Megan Lewis]

Interesting. Thank you. We are going to take a brief break but we will be back to talk about what other passages in the Hebrew Bible predict a Messiah, what they're looking for, and then look in a little bit more detail at the language of Isaiah 53. Psst. It's me. Your sense of adventure calling. I'm not just calling, I'm insisting. Insisting you stop daydreaming and start planning to get you and me out there. Out to Southwest Idaho during secret season. That time of year in March and April when snow stops dropping and flowers start popping. A perfect time for hiking, fishing, kayaking and the food. Phenomenal. The only thing missing, the crowds. Start in Boise, then explore beyond the city. Let's Visit Idaho. Visit SouthwestIdaho.org.

[Bart Ehrman]

I'm Bart Ehrman and I'm happy to announce a new two lecture course called Did Jesus Really Exist? I'll be giving these lectures on Saturday, July 19. It will involve as well a Q and A session and the best news is that it will be entirely free. As you probably know, scholars have long maintained that there are non historical materials on Jesus in the New Testament Gospels. But is it possible that Jesus himself was not historical? Not too many New Testament scholars think so, but plenty of other people. People do. And mythicists, as they are sometimes called, have become a vocal presence on the Internet. They are not a new phenomenon. Mythicists have been around since the French Revolution. But what kind of arguments do they deduce? How strong are they? And what kind of counter arguments would scholars present beyond that? Why do scholars almost invariably agree that Jesus did exist, even if they have different interpretations of his life and different views about what he actually said and did? In this two lecture course, I'll be looking at the evidence at some length again. It will be on Saturday, July 19th consisting of two lectures and a Q and A completely free. If you're interested, please [e-mail] Did Jesus exist? I hope you can come. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Megan Lewis]

Welcome back to M. Quoting Jesus before the break, we were talking a bit about the book of Isaiah, how it's constructed and then looking at what Isaiah, second Isaiah specifically says about a coming Messiah. And Barth said it is. It is Cyrus. It is not Jesus. He was talking about Cyrus. But I wanted to open the second Portion of the interview, asking what other books of the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, talk about a coming messiah and what they were anticipating, what they were looking for?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, it's not a common theme in the Old Testament. I think Christian readers might suspect that all the prophets are talking about is the coming of Jesus. But in fact, when you actually read their writings and, and just, you know, read them and see what they say about their historical context and pay careful attention to what they're saying, there's not very much discussion at all about a, a future messiah. In part, that's because a lot of these books were written where there already was a king and the king was the Messiah. The king, you know, he's the anointed one. So the idea, idea there's going to be a future messiah is rooted in the Old Testament. It's rooted in a promise that was made to King David, the second king of Israel through the prophet Nathan, who, who in 2nd Samuel chapter 7, Nathan indicates to David that he, David will not be allowed to build the temple to God because he sinned too much. God's not going to let him do it. But, but he's, he's going to have the Son and the son is going to build the temple. So he's referring to Solomon and he says, and he indicates in chapter seven that Solomon will be his son. The son of God just means that he'll be the one that God uses to speak through his and to work for his people, but that he will always have a descendant on the throne, that David will have a Davidic dynasty. And so that was true for about 400 years until the Babylonians came and took person off the throne. After that, there were some Jews who thought that God would fulfill his promise and that there would be a future Davidic king on the throne. That's not a prominent theme in the, in the Old Testament writings at all. It does start getting picked up after most of the Old Testament within forms of Judaism that anticipated that God would bring back the kingdom to Israel. And so in the days of Jesus, it's not that everybody was hoping for a messiah or thinking about a messiah any more than, you know, most Jews today are. I mean, some are, but most aren't. And it's probably kind of like that maybe more than, than now. But they, you know, they, they thought that it'd be a king like David. Most of them, there were, there are various expectations of what this Messiah could be in Jesus day, but basically he's going to be somebody who's empowered by God to destroy his enemies and set up the kingdom again.

[Megan Lewis]

So we've talked about this before. I think longtime listeners will be able to answer this question for themselves. But for people who are maybe new, is there any point in the historical period we're talking about the writing of the Old Testament during Jesus own lifetime that Jewish people were anticipating a Messiah who would look something like the suffering servants that we see in Isaiah?

[Bart Ehrman]

Ah, no, it's a really. No, it is a good question. And you know, we have, we have Jewish writings, you know, from, of course from the Old Testament, but then also after the Old Testament going up, well, you know, up till today, basically before Christianity, we don't have any Jewish writings that Talk about Isaiah 53 being a reference to a future suffering Messiah. And so far as we can tell, there was not a tradition at all within Judaism of a future suffering Messiah prior to Christianity. There are later Jewish texts that refer to a Messiah that might have to suffer. These are after Christianity, possibly influenced by Christianity. But nobody was interpreting Isaiah 53 or any part of Isaiah or any part of the Hebrew Bible to refer to a future suffering Messiah. The suffering Messiah was a, was a nonsensical term because the Messiah was supposed to be the figure who was a powerful, powerful representation, representation representative of God that God would use to slay the enemies. The idea that he's going to be, you know, tortured or killed by the enemies was just the opposite. And so of what anybody would have expected. And so no, the answer is no. We don't have any clear expectation of this anywhere in any of our Jewish writings.

[Megan Lewis]

So when do we first see Christian writers linking the book of Isaiah with Jesus?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, pretty soon it's hard to know whether the apostle Paul was heavily influenced by Isaiah 53 because he doesn't quote it and he doesn't actually quote the suffering servant songs specifically to refer to Jesus. But we do get a couple books in the New Testament that clearly Refer to Isaiah 53. One of them is in the Book of Acts, chapter, chapter, what is it? Chapter eight, where the, There's a, the Christianity has started to spread and this one of the, one of the leaders of the Christian church named Philip, and he encounters a eunuch from the, from the court of the Ethiopian queen who happens. The eunuch happens to be in Jerusalem worshiping in the temple. And Philip encounters him when he's reading, happens to be reading from the book of Isaiah. It's kind of a funny story. I've never quite made know what to make of this. This Ethiopian official is Riding in a chariot. And it says that he's reading from the book of Isaiah. So I'm not sure exactly how that works. I must be. Maybe it's a big chariot with like, you know, seats or something. I don't know what it was. But he's reading Isaiah 53. It must be a scroll. So I have no idea how that works. But. But Philip comes up to him and says, you understand what he's read, what you're reading? And the man says, I. I have no idea. How can I understand that? Somebody explains it to me. And so. So then Philip explains to him, it's. It's a passage from Isaiah, from the Suffering Servant song, about how. How this one will be taken away from the earth. And so. And it's referring to Jesus. According to Philip, this is referring to Jesus being killed. That's an interesting passage, by the way, because in Acts 8, there's no reference to Jesus dying for the sins of others, which seems to be the way people interpret Isaiah 53 mainly today. It's just that he's going to be taken away. The other place that is pretty clear that is reference to Isaiah 53 is First Peter. In the book of First Peter, we have a passage that talks about Christ dying for others, dying for their sins. And it looks like it's a paraphrase of Isaiah 53, almost a quotation of Isaiah 53. So already in the New Testament, you have a couple of places, and then it becomes really prominent once you start getting into the second and third centuries.

[Megan Lewis]

So if we look a little bit, in a little bit more detail at the actual language of Isaiah 53, I think the verse that people are most likely to recognize is the one that I read right at the top of the interview. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. That's Isaiah 53, 5. And like I said, it reads Jesus to me and many other people who were raised as Christians. Obviously not what the author was anticipating. I am not who the author was writing for when this was written. Who was the author intending the audience to think about?

[Bart Ehrman]

Okay, so it's kind of a, you know, it's a. It's kind of a detailed issue. But when you're trying to figure out who this servant was, you want to do several things. First, you want to see how the servant is talked about in the four passages. You want to see those four passages in the broader context. Of second Isaiah, it's quite clear, starting with chapter 40, that the people have suffered, those who have been in exile have suffered for the sins of the people, and that now God is going to restore them to the land. He's going to bring them salvation. He talks about it as a second exodus. Just as the people were brought from slavery in Egypt under Moses, now they will return from Babylon also in triumph, and God will once more bring salvation to them. So they sinned, they've been punished, they're now going to be saved. So that's the broader context. The suffering servant is talked about as the one who has suffered and who is going to be vindicated. An important point to make about that is that when Isaiah talks about the suffering of the servant, he talks about it as something that has already happened. He does not talk about it as a prediction of what's going to happen to someone. Later. He says that he has been wounded for our transgressions. He did suffer those stripes. He was punished. It's in the past. It's the past. It's happened already. But he will be vindicated. God will bring salvation. So it doesn't even read like a prophecy. It reads about a statement of something that's happened already in this context of the people of Israel suffering. So you want to. So you think about all those things, and then you look closely. Does the author ever tell you who this servant is? Does he ever name him? And to my surprise when I first realized this, the answer is absolutely yes. He tells you in a couple places, specifically who it is in chapter 42, chapter 49, verse three. And so a few places, chapter 49, verse three is the most explicit. God is speaking to the servant who has suffered and is going to be vindicated. And he says, you are my servant, O Israel. What? Yes. He tells you it's Israel. He tells you that already in chapter 42, if you start there, and that he's talking about Israel is the suffering servant. This seems so strange to people because Israel's a nation, the servant's a person. How do you do that? Right. How do you do that?

[Megan Lewis]

How do you do that?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, yeah. How do you do that? It is common in the Old Testament to talk about a collective, a nation, as an individual. You get that with humans. You get it with. With other things. As an example, that, that I've always been fond of is in Daniel, chapter seven. This is. This is that passage that Christians ended up using to talk about Jesus as the coming son of man. Daniel has this dream, and he sees a beast coming up out of the sea that is like destructive and horrible and awful, that wipes out the earth. Then there's a second beast that comes up out of the sea who's even worse than the first one. He goes through. There are four of these beasts and these are awful beings. And then when you can't figure out what's happening, what typically happens in these kinds of cases where you have a vision in the Old Testament, an angel standing by to tell him what's going on. And the angel tells him these beasts each represent a nation. So these beasts actually the first one represented Assyria, the second one represented Babylon, etc, And so a collective is understood as an individual. And that's what happens happens in the New Testament in the book of Revelation, referring to this Daniel passage, Revelation does not talk about the Antichrist. This figure is called the beast. And when you read Revelation, it's clear as day he's talking about the city of Rome. So it is very common throughout the Bible to use an individual to refer to a collective or a collective to refer to an individual. And so when he says that the servant is Israel, he's, he's talking about the collective, but simply using the metaphor of a person to explain someone who has suffered. That someone is actually this nation of Israel. And because they've suffered, they've now paid for their sins. Now God's going to bring salvation to them. So, you know, Isaiah himself tells you this is Israel, and you know, so. So I think that's who he's talking about, about. And in the context it makes sense. Israel's in Babylonian captivity, Judah's in Babylonian captivity, and God's now going to save them. And so they have suffered and now they're going to be redeemed.

[Megan Lewis]

I want to come back to that paying for the sins motif because that turns up in several places. In Isaiah 53, 5, 8, and then verse 10 all talk about the servant being punished for the wrongdoing of others. I think verse 10 sounds the most Jesus like. And the author writes that Yahweh makes his life an offering for sin. Was this idea a common theme in Jewish writing?

[Bart Ehrman]

You know, within Judaism itself, the, the religion that was practiced in the temple involved animal sacrifice and animal. There were several. There are lots of reasons for sacrifices. And it's not that there is like one thing about sacrifice. There are lots of different kinds of sacrifices for different occasions and different purposes. But one form of sacrifice was an atoning sacrifice when the animal's death somehow resolved the problem of human Sin that's seen most clearly In Leviticus, chapter 16, on the day of atonement, Yom Kippur, the day of atonement is when the high priest would go into the holy of holies and would sacrifice an animal, have a couple of sacrifices for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. And this would bring about salvation because another living being has sacrificed for your life. And you need that because you're estranged from God. And because you're estranged from God, there has to be some kind of sacrifice in order to return you to favor with God. And so that's written into the very fabric of the Israelite religion, just as it was written into the fabric of every pagan religion that we knew about. They have these sacrifices to appease the gods in one way or another other. And so in Isaiah, the idea is, it's being used metaphorically in a sense, that the people have been sacrificed for the sins. The people who are in exile now, while Isaiah, second Isaiah is writing, the people in exile are suffering for the sins that they, you know, the generation before them had sinned. They're being punished even though they weren't the ones who had sinned. Some of them might have been from that generation. But, but the point is that somebody has to suffer, suffer for the sins of the people. And that gets picked up later in Jewish texts as well, including a later Jewish martyr texts, a book like 4th Maccabees, not in the Hebrew Bible, but talks about, you know, martyrs being killed for the sake of the people. And so that that image lives on in, in throughout the Old Testament and it lives on into the New Testament where the New Testament authors pick up on that, that Jesus was the sacrifice for others. And once they start thinking that, they automatically start thinking about the suffering servant who suffered for the sins of others.

[Megan Lewis]

So final question. You've touched a couple of times on how the writers of the New Testament would have been familiar with these ideas and with these texts, would books like the book of Isaiah have provided a theological template for them to explain and talk about Jesus death?

[Bart Ehrman]

Right. You know, it's as with, you know, as with all kind of major influential ideas, there's a complicated history to, to the idea that Jesus death was for others and in relationship by itself, but also in relationship to second Isaiah. So I, so just to give you kind of the brief overview, what I think happened was that in, in during Jesus lifetime, I think some of his disciples thought that he, he really was the coming Messiah. They did not think that meant he was going to be crucified. Just the opposite. The Messiah is supposed to be the king. And in the Gospels, I think this is probably historically right. Jesus told his own disciples that those 12 you12 will be ruling the 12 tribes of Israel. So they're going to be rulers over the people of God, and Jesus is going to be the ruler over them. So Jesus thinks the kingdom of God is coming and he's going to be made the king. I think historically that's the way it was. That's what Jesus thought, that he'd be made the king when the kingdom came. When the authorities found out that Jesus was saying that, they had him arrested. Pontius Pilate found him guilty for claiming to be the future king of the Jews, and he crucified him. The disciples must have immediately thought, we were wrong. He's not the Messiah. But then some of them said and possibly did have visions of Jesus as being alive again. They concluded he's brought back to life. So the only way to be brought back to life is if God brings you back to life. So Jesus is the chosen one. And so they started thinking then that his death makes sense if he's the chosen one, then his death only makes sense if God wanted him to die. Well, why would God want a living person to die? And they latched onto this idea that you need a sacrifice for sins. So once they thought Jesus was a sacrifice for sins after his death, they started looking through Scripture or thinking about what they knew about scripture. And they landed on passages that seemed to suggest that a righteous person had to suffer. And Isaiah 53 was a natural place for that. So then they started saying Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, was always about Jesus. And they basically convinced every Christian for the last 2,000 years that that's the case, that Isaiah 53 was predicting Jesus, even though almost certainly that's not what second Isaiah had in mind.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you very much, Bart. That was really, really interesting. We are going to end there. Otherwise we will just keep going and talk about who knows what. All right, who knows what? We are going to go to some upcoming events and then we have Bart's soapbox to finish out the episode.

[Bart Ehrman]

Welcome to our upcoming highlights and events segment where we catch up on Barth's courses, community updates, and all the latest news from the Biblical Studies Academy and beyond.

[Megan Lewis]

Okay, two announcements today. First of all, it is your last chance to sign up for Bart's free course titled Did Jesus Really Exist? It's going to be recorded on July 19th and you can go to courses. Dot. Bart. Ehrman.com forward/did Jesus really exist? And there's probably going to be a better link in the video description for you to just click on, but what kinds of things are you going to be covering for this one?

[Bart Ehrman]

You know, I was very surprised 10 years ago when I started hearing about people claiming Jesus actually never existed. There never was a person. Jesus, man, that's, that's wild. And, but eventually, you know, with the Internet, you know, everything gets spread around more and more and people started to think that, yeah, why not? And so this course is going to be explaining why. I think even though I'm not a Christian believer and I, you know, I don't have like a personal stake in the matter per se. I mean, I, I, I think as a historian that it's, it's a no brainer. Yes, Jesus did exist. Whatever else you might say about him, he existed. And you have disagreements about how much recorded is actually historic, but the existence of. Yeah, so I'm going to explain why, why scholars are, you know, almost virtually unanimous on this thing and, and why, why mythicists who say no, what, what they have to say and evaluate their arguments to see, you know, how good are they and should they be taken seriously or, I mean, you should take every argument seriously. But you know, are they really, are they compelling or not? And I think my view is this one's a slam dunk. Other people don't think it's a slam dunk, but you know, I'll talk about all of that over a course of two lectures and with, with a Q

[Megan Lewis]

A I will be there hosting so you can send your questions along to me via the Zoom. And I will do my best to get Bart to answer all of them. We also have another Biblical studies academy coming up. This is going to be a course on the Old Testament with Joel Baden. Joel's done another course for you, I believe, hasn't he? The Rise and Fall of Biblical Israel.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was hugely successful. This Old Testament course is going to be good. It's a semester long course by a professor at Yale who teaches this at Yale. So I mean we're talking serious stuff. And he's, he's like one of these, he's one of these people who's like, knows like a crazy amount but can communicate to normal, normal human beings. I heard him, I, I first heard him on the radio maybe four or five years ago in an interview. That man, that is clear, that is really good. You know, explaining at a level that people can understand. So he's A dynamic teacher, really interesting teacher. He's got a good sense of humor and you know, he's, he's really, really bright. So this, this is one, if you're, if you got any interest in the Hebrew Bible, this is, this is the course.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, I've interviewed Joel a couple of times. He's just to echo what Bart has said. He's a very engaging speaker and really has a knack for taking difficult concepts and explaining them in a way that really anyone with a passing familiarity with the Bible can understand. I think it's going to be a really, really good course and we will have more details about dates and a website that you can go to to register and all that kind of stuff in future episodes. And now we have Barthes Soapbox where Barth gets on his soapbox and shares his feelings with the world.

[Bart Ehrman]

Take cover. Fundamentalist Christians and mythicists. It's time for Bart Gets on His Soapbox, the segment where Bart exposes the belief systems and social constructs that frustrate him most.

[Megan Lewis]

So Bart, what are you on your soapbox about this week?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, you know there, there are very few topics of that I study that actually get under my skin that are like really become personal passions for me. But the one that really does more than anything is trying to wrestle with the problem suffering in the world and how you explain that there's so much, so much suffering that you just can't even get your mind around it. If there's a God who is overlooking the world, who intervenes in the world, who answers prayer, how do you explain that? It's the reason I myself left the faith. I don't insist that other people leave the faith and I don't insist that other people share the kinds of issues I have. But what I really get upset about is when people have very, very self assured answers about it would strike me as simple answers. And this happens even with like the, the, some of the major thinkers of the world I've got to say. So I this morning thinking about something to be on the soapbox I decided to re listen to an interview I did and I wondered if I should like name names. Why not? It's on YouTube, it's not like any secret. So this is a, it was a, it's a, a famous philosopher who teaches at Oxford, Richard Swinburne who has written books about explaining how there can be a God if there's suffering in the world. And we had this radio debate and it just flipping drove me crazy because I, you know, people who have Easy answers. He. Of course, it's not an easy answer. He's a philosopher. I mean, you know, he's like a major philosopher, but people who can explain things away without thinking about the human implications of it just drive me nuts. And so we got in this argument because I was talking about, you know, a child starving to death. Like, you know, every. Every five or eight seconds, a child starves to death in our world. And he started explaining to me why that is, and why it's okay. And. And what God does by that. And what he does is when. When, you know, when humans do something nasty to make a child starve to death. And then we who know about it can realize that we can make better decisions than those people. People. And so it improves our character. And this child is starved to death. It might seem bad for her, but she's actually done a good thing because she's like. She's improved our character, and so this is good for her. And I think, are you nuts? This is crazy. And. And I mean, I'm sorry. I mean, he is a major thinker, but I'm sorry, where is the humanity in this? And so then we started talking about the Holocaust. And I said, look, I don't think 6 million Jews, you know, died so that I could be a more noble person with a better character. You know, it's not just you. It's millions of people who've got better characters because of that. This justifies 6 million Jews being killed and 5 million others, 11 million Jews, so that the rest of us can be. Can be. Have better character. I mean, I just. I, you know, I get a lot. I do get a lot of simplistic answers from people, and most people, you know, they're not philosophers, so it's okay. But, you know, to live in the ivory tower like this and to come up with explanations for things that are horrible so that you don't think they're as horrible anymore, but they're noble. I'm sorry, that is not humane, and it's not human. And so. So anyway, that this was. You can look up the interview. I mean, he was. It was on YouTube, just Richard Swinburne and me about 10 years ago. 11 years. 11 years ago. So it's. It's all public out there. I. I didn't. I didn't exactly blow up at him on. You know, I respected what he had to say and listen to him and. But, man, I just. I. I really don't. I. I have a problem with that. I don't get this passionate about most as much anything. I mean, you know, second Isaiah, whatever. But this issue strikes me as being very, very personal, even though I myself am not starving to death.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you for sharing that thought. Now, before we finish for the week, would you mind just summarizing what we spoke about today?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, well, we talked about second Isaiah, the second part of the book of Isaiah, written by an author probably during the Babylonian exile, a different author from the first 39 chapters of Isaiah. Second Isaiah is written to to people from Judah who are in exile, assuring them that God now is going to bring them back to their promise back to the land because they've, they've suffered for the sins of the people. And we talked about whether Isaiah is actually predicting the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, especially in Isaiah 53. And I tried to show why, even even though that that is an interpretation that Christians naturally have of this passage, that if you actually read it and read the entire context, read all of second Isaiah, it's clear this is not a messianic prediction of Jesus crucifixion.

[Megan Lewis]

Bart thank you so much audience. Thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe. Subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Remember, you can use the code MJ podcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartehrman.com. misquoting Jesus will be back next week. Bart, what are we talking about next time?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, so you know, there's a view of Jesus that's been around for a long time that Jesus was actually some kind of zealot who wanted to take up the sword against the Romans and have a violent intervention to help bring in the kingdom of God or at least to get rid of the Romans. And we're going to talk about whether that's historically right or not.

[Megan Lewis]

Make sure you join us then. Thank you all and goodbye. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.