Historical Paul: What Scholars Actually Know About Paul's Life, Beliefs, and Personality

Summary

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman

Episode: Historical Paul: What Scholars Actually Know About Paul's Life, Beliefs, and Personality

Date: November 29, 2022
Guests: Dr. James Tabor (filling in for Bart Ehrman), hosted by Megan Lewis

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Episode Overview

This special episode features Dr. James Tabor—distinguished scholar of Christian Origins—in conversation with Megan Lewis. The discussion centers on the apostle Paul: what we actually know about his life, beliefs, and mystical experiences, versus what has been mythologized or misattributed. Dr. Tabor systematically unpacks the major scholarly approaches to Paul's writings and persona, situating Paul as both a key historical witness and a profoundly complex, sometimes controversial, figure in early Christianity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Paul’s Central Importance in Christianity

• Paul’s Role: Paul isn’t just a figure among many—he’s the “central figure” in the development of Christianity after Jesus (04:12). In the Church, Paul is sometimes considered almost more foundational than Jesus in shaping Christian doctrine and practice.
• Quote: “Paul in a sense has kind of superseded Jesus... Paul founded Christianity.” (Dr. James Tabor, 04:44–04:57)
• Practical Impact: Modern doctrinal debates (gender, sexuality, women's roles) lean heavily on interpretations of Paul, not Jesus.

2. How Do We Know Paul? Sorting Sources

• Four Layers of Paul:
  1. Authentic (Core) Letters – Seven letters critical scholars trust as genuinely Pauline: Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon (09:05–09:43).
  2. Deutero-Pauline Letters – Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians (09:53–10:25). Their theology appears more developed, possibly written later by others.
  3. The Pastorals – 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus—often seen by scholars as products of a “Pauline school,” not Paul himself (11:03–11:15).
  4. Acts of the Apostles – Not written by Paul; its narrative sometimes conflicts with Paul’s letters (11:25–11:56).
• Methodology: Focus on the early, undisputed letters for reconstructing Paul's biography and self-understanding, rather than later church traditions or Acts (12:07–12:34).

3. Misquoting Paul: Problems with Interpolation & Transmission

• Textual Issues: Variants and possible interpolations abound, just as with the Gospels.
  • Example: The prohibition on women speaking (1 Cor 14) may be interpolated (14:40–14:53).
• Quote: “Whenever you hear... someone quoting Paul, pay attention to the reference.” (Dr. James Tabor, 16:11–16:28)

4. Biography of Paul: From Pharisee to Visionary

• Self-Reported Facts: Paul claims he was a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin, zealous in Judaism (12:45–12:58).
• “Conversion” or Transformation?: Paul describes not a conversion from Judaism to Christianity, but a transformation or “change of persuasion” within Judaism, after visionary experiences (17:15–18:12).
• Prophetic Self-Understanding: Paul uses the language of being “called from his mother’s womb,” echoing prophetic and royal traditions (18:30–19:45).

5. Paul’s Claim to Authority: Personal Revelation

• Relationship with Jesus: Paul never met Jesus in person (“after the flesh”) but claims more direct, visionary authority:
  • “Paul never met Jesus.... But Paul would say, yes, I have met Jesus.” (Bart Ehrman/Dr. Tabor, 20:35–20:55)
  • He regards his revelations as superseding those of the original apostles (21:11–22:09).
• Conflict: Seen in rivalry and mutual skepticism with the Jerusalem/James faction (23:19–24:03).

6. Paul’s Personality: Defensive, Passionate, and Complex

• Tenderness and Severity: Paul oscillates between nurturing imagery (“Like a nurse with her child”) and outright harshness, especially with opponents (33:38–34:41).
• Notable Quote: “If an angel from heaven... tells you... that guy Paul you’ve been listening to, he’s delusional... you should say to that angel, to hell with you. Literally.” (Dr. James Tabor, 25:53–26:03)
• Colorful Aggression: Example—on circumcision opponents: “I hope the knife slips.” (Dr. Tabor/Bart Ehrman, 35:35–35:45)

7. Paul's Mysticism and Concepts of Resurrection

• Visionary Experiences: Paul claims to have visited “the third heaven” (second Corinthians 12), paralleling mystical ascent traditions (21:11–22:09, 47:16–47:32).
• Resurrection and the Afterlife:
  • Paul’s view is more Hellenistic (apotheosis, transformation into a “spirit body” or “air body”) than concretely physical as in later Gospel stories (40:19–45:12).
  • Quote: “In the heavenly kingdom of God, you’ll have this... a wind body.” (Dr. James Tabor, 45:25–45:32)
  • The “spirit body” preserves personal identity in a glorified, cosmic form—not a resuscitated corpse (46:07–46:45).
• Comparison with Later Christianity: The church increasingly shifted to a more “heaven now” view, diverging from literal bodily resurrection, partly due to delay of the apocalypse and practical realities (53:20–57:32).

8. Paul & Hellenistic/Jewish Synthesis

• Jewish Roots, Hellenistic Forms: Paul blends resurrection language with Hellenistic immortality of the soul concepts, straddling two cultural frameworks (50:05–53:07, 59:03–60:14).
• Body Metaphors: Uses tents/clothes, not bones/flesh, to describe transition from mortal to immortal state (58:58–60:11).

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Paul’s Authority:
  “What they are means nothing to me.” (referring to the Jerusalem apostles, Galatians; 25:05–25:21)

• On Textual Transmission:
  “Paul has been interpolated... look at all those variants at the bottom of the page.” (13:32–14:00)

• On Resurrection:
  “He actually calls it a wind body, using the word pneuma... I like to just call it an air body.” (45:25–45:49)

• On His Sufferings as Proof:
  “I’m going to take off my shirt and... show you the stripes on my back. I’m going to show you the stigmata.” (27:53–28:13)

• On Afterlife and Corpse Resurrection:
  “Resuscitated corpses are just kind of... less attractive, and they’re gone. So what are you going to resuscitate?” (60:02–60:14)

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Section Timestamps

• Paul in Christian Tradition & Authority: 04:01–06:53
• Sorting Pauline Layers & Authentic Letters: 07:54–12:34
• Misquoting & Interpolations: 13:32–16:45
• Paul's Biographical Claims, Visionary Authority: 17:07–22:09
• Paul vs. Jerusalem Faction/Jewish Christianity: 23:19–24:03
• Paul's Mysticism & Ascent Motif: 37:28–47:32
• Resurrection, Spirit Bodies, and Afterlife: 47:16–62:14
• Jewish and Hellenistic Influences: 50:20–54:58, 59:03–61:45
• Paul’s Contradictions & Legacy in Christianity: 53:20–54:45, 65:02–65:44

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Conclusion

This episode provides a deep, critical look at Paul as both a historical person and a theological innovator. Dr. Tabor and Megan Lewis emphasize the need for careful source differentiation and caution against conflating Acts, later Gospels, and pseudonymous letters with the earliest, authentic Pauline voice. The real Paul emerges as a fiercely individual, mystical, and influential figure—one who straddled the worlds of Jewish tradition, Hellenistic culture, and a new, boldly universal vision of salvation.

For further exploration: Dr. Tabor’s article “What the Bible Really Says About Death, Afterlife, and the Future” is available on his blog (68:46–69:26).

Transcript

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[Bart Ehrman]

this is

[Podcast Host Introduction]

a special edition of the Misquoting Jesus Podcast. We had scheduled this episode a while back, but when time came for taping it, an emergency had come up in my family and I had to take two weeks off. Fortunately, my friend James Tabor agreed to fill in for me. Many of you know who James is. He is a prominent scholar of the New Testament and Early Christianity who has published a good deal in a lot of different areas. In this episode, Megan interviews him about the importance of the Apostle Paul for understanding the early Christian movement. This is obviously a crucial matter for anyone interested in the New Testament or in how Christianity developed after the time of Jesus, and James is one of the leading experts on the topic, having studied it intensely and published about it for over 40 years. In the episode, Megan refers to it being a two week show, but we chose to stitch the two recordings together so that you can hear them in continuity and that way I'll be back next week for the next episode. I'm sorry to say that in addition to my family emergency, Megan had a bit of a health problem and lost her voice, but not completely and so her voice is a little weaker than normal, but her questions are as forceful and interesting as ever. Since this is a special episode, it will not include question and answer or other segments that we've come to enjoy. At least I've come to record, but we will be including those segments again next week. Here's Megan and James. I hope you enjoy it.

[Megan Lewis]

Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholarly uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin.

Hello everybody and welcome. Bart is unfortunately unable to join me today, so instead I'm very lucky to have Dr. James Table with me. For those unfamiliar with him, Dr. Table retired in 2002 as a full professor from the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte where he taught Christian Origins and ancient Judaism for 33 years, serving as chair for a decade. His Master's and PhD are from the University of Chicago, and he also taught at the University of Notre Dame and the College of William and Mary. Dr. Tabor has combined his work on ancient texts with extensive fieldwork in archaeology in Israel and Jordan, and he's been co director of the acclaimed Mount Zion excavation in Jerusalem since 2008. Dr. Tabor is also a popular public lecturer and writer, and has authored books such as Paul's Ascent to Paradise, the Apostolic Message, and the Mission of Paul in Light of His Mystical Experiences and the Jesus Dynasty. You can find Dr. Tabor online at jamestable.com which includes his biblical studies blog, and on YouTube at YouTube.com JamestableVideos James, thank you so much for joining me.

[Dr. James Tabor]

It's my pleasure, Megan. I really appreciate being here and especially being on Bart's podcast. He and I go back a long way.

[Megan Lewis]

It's always nice when you can get friends involved in ventures like this. So we're going to talk today about Paul. As I just said, you've wrote about him quite extensively. Could you maybe start by saying why you think he's an interesting figure?

[Bart Ehrman]

I think Paul tends to be essential if you're studying the origins of Christianity. If you think about evangelical Christians or

[Dr. James Tabor]

even the great church east and West, Paul is just the central figure in a certain way. I think there's lip service given to Peter, certainly in the east and West Catholic Church. And you go to the Vatican and you walk up the steps and on the left you see the gigantic statue of Peter. But on the right is Paul. James, by the way, is nowhere to be seen. But we can talk about that who actually seemed to take over leadership of the early Jesus movement.

[Bart Ehrman]

But Paul in a sense has kind of superseded Jesus.

[Dr. James Tabor]

You know, 19th century scholars even talked about Paul as the at first they

[Bart Ehrman]

said the second founder of Christianity, like

[Dr. James Tabor]

Jesus obviously has to be the founder, but then Paul's kind of the other founder. And in some cases, I think you have books and studies that now that just outright say, you know, Paul founded Christianity. And so among believers of all types, Paul is just it. I know Bart and I both grew up in evangelical Christian circles, and I can't tell you how many times growing up in Sunday school classes and other kinds of teaching context, that Paul would be the appeal of last resort. You know, after all, Jesus is a Jew in his own time. He apparently kept Jewish festivals and was maybe observant of the Torah in some fashion. But then Paul in a sense is like the first Christian. You know, and so I remember many, many times people could quote Paul and kind of solve all their questions. But again, if you think about the issues even today that are being discussed in all spectrums of Christianity, say the place of women or gender or sexuality, Jesus actually isn't the one that people usually refer to sometimes because he didn't say anything about, say, homosexuality or same gender sex. But with Paul, we've got passages in some of his letters, Romans and Corinthians, place of women. Paul has plenty to say about that, depending on what letters you read early or late.

[Bart Ehrman]

So he's just this towering figure.

[Dr. James Tabor]

There's no one who stands taller than Paul. And so I think for any of us who study early Christianity historically or

[Bart Ehrman]

even from a faith perspective, it's Paul,

[Dr. James Tabor]

Paul, Paul and more Paul. He's just everywhere. What do you think?

[Bart Ehrman]

Was that your experience in any way?

[Dr. James Tabor]

You don't work in New Testament?

[Megan Lewis]

I mean, kind of. So I grew up Anglican and still consider myself to be Anglican. And you do definitely get an awful lot of Paul. I don't think, at least my theological upbringing wasn't terribly strict. I don't know if strict is the right term, but we relied less on what the Bible explicitly says about women and sexuality and that kind of thing and focused more on just being nice to other people. But no, Paul definitely is obviously a very familiar name and came up very regularly in sermons and things like that. So something that has come up in conversations with Barth is how little comparatively we know about the people who wrote the Gospels. How much do we know about the figure of Paul and how much of that do you think is rooted in historical fact and how much is maybe a myth that grew up around this Persona?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, I think because Paul is so

[Dr. James Tabor]

central, like Jesus, the material that we get in his name and about him is every bit as complicated as unraveling the Gospels. For example, I would talk about four layers of Paul and what happens when people quote Paul. They just mix them all up. So you've heard people say, for example, well, Paul was a Roman citizen. And scholars would say, now wait, wait, wait. And we say this to our students all the time. Let's get our sources straight. Just as if I say, well, Jesus was a carpenter. Not only do I have to look at the Greek word, it's translated carpenter,

[Bart Ehrman]

but where does it say that?

[Dr. James Tabor]

And it actually only says that in One book, Mark 6:3 happen to know that one by heart. And same with Paul.

[Bart Ehrman]

Paul's a Roman citizen. Well, Paul never says in any of his letters either what we call the core letters, some of us call them the authentic letters. That's only in the Book of Acts, which isn't even written by Paul. So the four layers, briefly.

[Dr. James Tabor]

But let's start bottom, foundational. There's seven letters of Paul that are typically seen, as I tell my students, the early letters to a lot of them are evangelical, just like Barth students,

[Bart Ehrman]

or they come from that background. Let's just call them early.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That way it's not disputed. They're the first things we get from Paul.

[Bart Ehrman]

It would be letters like First Thessalonians. They're named after churches.

[Dr. James Tabor]

The Corinthian correspondence, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon. Those are the seven early letters. I might have left out one, but I think that might have been seven.

[Bart Ehrman]

Most critical scholars would say, if you're going to work on Paul, you should really confine your core insights to those seven letters.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And the reason is the next tier

[Bart Ehrman]

would be Ephesians, Colossians, and Second Thessalonians. We often call these deutero Pauline in the academy. But I think with good reason. They are so much more developed Christologically. You know, the views of Jesus and in terms of salvation that either Paul could have developed. I mean, that's certainly the standard conservative argument. Well, Paul changed over the years, and

[Dr. James Tabor]

so these later letters are just his later reflections.

[Bart Ehrman]

But it's also possible that they've been rewritten, a kind of rewritten Paul, just like Matthew and Luke, most of us think, rewrote Mark. So to use a rough parallel, because Barth's been teaching about the Gospels. You know, the early Paul would be like starting with Mark, but then you

[Dr. James Tabor]

get another layer on Mark, which would

[Bart Ehrman]

be Matthew and then Luke and to some degree, John. And it's really important to sort that out. And then you've got the letters we call the Pastorals that many scholars, even

[Dr. James Tabor]

more conservative scholars, would think of as secondary Paul. They're like a Pauline school. That would be Timothy, Titus, the two letters of Timothy.

[Bart Ehrman]

And you can definitely see vocabulary changes. The issues begin to shift. And then you've got the tale of Paul. In the book of Acts, we call

[Dr. James Tabor]

it the Acts of the Apostles, but

[Bart Ehrman]

really it could be called the Acts

[Dr. James Tabor]

of Paul with a brief introduction, because by chapter seven, Paul's on the scene. By chapter nine, he's the main character.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's got what, 27 chapters. I think I'm going by memory here, 28 chapters. I think it's all Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul. So a lot of the bio that's kind of rattling around in our heads if we were exp to the Bible growing up or churches or just even

[Dr. James Tabor]

your Anglican liturgy that just mixes all

[Bart Ehrman]

the Acts stuff with the letter stuff. So what I've done in the two books I've written, Paul's Ascent to Paradise

[Dr. James Tabor]

and a book called Paul and Jesus,

[Bart Ehrman]

is I confine myself just to the seven. And the idea would be, if you start there, you've got a core, and it would be more solid and more reliable. And then if you maybe want to add other things that are possible. But generally, if something as late as X disagrees against Paul's early letters, I

[Dr. James Tabor]

would go with Paul's early letters.

[Bart Ehrman]

So it does make a difference, particularly on his biography. But, you know, actually, Megan, you can go through just those seven letters and get quite a bit of bio on poll.

[Dr. James Tabor]

You know, he says things like, I'm of the tribe of Benjamin, and he says, I was a Pharisee. And he tells you that he studied and exceeded in his study of Judaism.

[Bart Ehrman]

Some of that then would parallel what

[Dr. James Tabor]

we get in the Book of Acts, but other things might not.

[Bart Ehrman]

So I think that's the way we have to proceed. So with my students particularly and just general audiences, if they ask a question, well, what about what Paul said about women in second Timothy? My answer could be very different if we're talking about, say, second Timothy as

[Dr. James Tabor]

opposed to one of his early letters where he also talks about women, but in a different way.

[Bart Ehrman]

So that's part of the problem.

[Megan Lewis]

That's very interesting.

[Bart Ehrman]

I would want to throw in misquoting Paul just like misquoting Jesus, because Paul has been interpolated. I mean, what did Bart discover as he began his academic journey? And he's talked about it in all of his books. I open up, I got a Greek New Testament here. And I don't care if in Paul's letters or anywhere else, look at all those variants at the bottom of the page.

[Dr. James Tabor]

They're different.

[Bart Ehrman]

Now, sometimes we'll say, yeah, but the differences are minor.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That's a lot true.

[Bart Ehrman]

But there's some major differences, too. And so we could talk about misquoting Paul, where someone has added something to Paul and we have to try to figure out either based on manuscript copies or is something just so out of line that it sounds like a pious copyist might have tried to help Paul

[Dr. James Tabor]

out a little bit. A good example of that that really is discussed constantly in the field is

[Bart Ehrman]

where Paul, in one of his early letters, First Corinthians, chapter 14, talks about

[Dr. James Tabor]

he doesn't allow a woman to speak

[Bart Ehrman]

or even ask a question in the assembly.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I personally am willing to say that's Paul.

[Bart Ehrman]

But a lot of people who want to see Paul as more there's neither Jew nor Greek, there's neither male nor female. Kind of the idealistic Paul. They would say, well, how do we know that that wasn't added or at least tightened up by a later copyist who is trying to harmonize Paul? There's another passage in First Thessalonians where Paul is talking about the Jews and

[Dr. James Tabor]

he says, they kill Christ and they

[Bart Ehrman]

oppose all humankind and God's wrath has

[Dr. James Tabor]

come upon them at last. And he sounds pretty nasty and even beyond nasty. And of course that can be taken by people who want to use Paul to kind of promote a sort of anti Semitism, the way that Matthew does, where he says the blood of Jesus is on our heads and the heads of our children forever. But that's only in Matthew, that's not in Mark when he tells about the trial before Pontius Pilate.

[Bart Ehrman]

So we have some of those same problems. It's not exactly the same because we don't have these four accounts plus Gospel of Thomas plus Gospel of Peter to

[Dr. James Tabor]

all throw in the mix.

[Bart Ehrman]

But there's enough in the mix to also see the complexity of Paul. So whenever you hear. I know you're not in the field. If you hear anybody quoting Paul, pay attention to the reference. Because a lot of times it'll be,

[Dr. James Tabor]

well, Paul said, and you got to go, wait a minute, how do you

[Bart Ehrman]

know that what you're saying Paul said, and where are you quoting from? And lots of times people won't even know it's in there somewhere.

[Megan Lewis]

I had some judge once, it must be.

[Bart Ehrman]

And it really makes sense to start with the seven. And I think every essential thing you want to ask about Paul, it's going to be addressed in those seven. And I feel like those early letters are going to be our best place to start. So right away you're in a kind

[Dr. James Tabor]

of critical enterprise right there that's very interesting.

[Megan Lewis]

What maybe base facts or base theological strands can we pick out of those seven letters?

[Bart Ehrman]

Out of those seven letters, I would start with a kind of a bio that we could come up with. It's kind of here and there, but

[Dr. James Tabor]

the book of Galatians is very important because he even mentions some chronology there. I think the number one thing to start with, it's usually called the Conversion of Paul. But most of us in the field have come to see that it's not really a conversion like changing from one religion to another, but it's actually a change of persuasion of somebody already within Judaism and, and recognizing the varieties of Judaism in what we call that late second Temple period, first century BCE up through the first century ce. Judaism is extremely diverse, very Hellenistic. And so Paul makes changes in his view, but it's not as though he went to Buddhism or he repudiated the God of Abraham, Isaac of Jacob, or even repudiated the Torah as a Jew at least.

[Bart Ehrman]

And so if you start with Galatians, he does talk about this experience that he had and he makes claims for himself that are quite extravagant and they're

[Dr. James Tabor]

coming right out of his mouth as a first person witness.

[Bart Ehrman]

He says, for example, that it pleased

[Dr. James Tabor]

God who called me from my mother's womb. So think about that. If you believe that what you are now doing was destined before you were in the womb, it's not just predestination because if you took it more generally you could say, well, everybody's kind of predestined. No, he said I was called in my mother's womb. So we got.

[Megan Lewis]

You see, that's interesting. You see that kind of language in Mesopotamian royal inscriptions, but it comes from like kings. It's not something I'm familiar with coming from a non royal private individual.

[Bart Ehrman]

Exactly. And Jeremiah is one other figure. I think he's the only other figure in the Hebrew Bible where Hashem or God or Yahweh, let's just do Yahweh for short. Yahweh says to Jeremiah, when you were

[Dr. James Tabor]

in the womb, I knew you and called you and made you a prophet.

[Bart Ehrman]

So Paul's identifying with that. In fact, I almost feel that he

[Dr. James Tabor]

has Jeremiah in his ear because he said, I made you a prophet to the nations, Jeremiah. And we don't think of Jeremiah as a prophet to the nations, but that's

[Bart Ehrman]

his commission in chapter one.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And then at the end of the book, towards the last third, he addresses all of these national entities and calls wrath upon them or judgment upon them. And so Paul says, I was called from my mother's womb before my birth. And he said, Jesus then revealed his

[Bart Ehrman]

son either in me or to me. But the Greek preposition probably means both.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He says he revealed the Gospel, the

[Bart Ehrman]

good news that I preach. So right away that becomes just a bottom line fact that Paul believes that he's heard from Jesus. And yet I open this Paul and Jesus with the senates. Paul never met Jesus. Well, he never met Jesus, as far

[Dr. James Tabor]

as we know, in his earthly Life,

[Bart Ehrman]

I guess you could say. But Paul would say, yes, I have met Jesus. In fact, my face to face meetings with Jesus, visionary, supersede even those who knew him after the flesh. And so he actually has this kind

[Dr. James Tabor]

of polemic going, yes, I'm late, but I'm not last. And I wasn't with the 12 and the original followers of Jesus. It's almost like he's saying, but I've heard from him more recently than you have.

[Bart Ehrman]

And he just takes this relationship that he has with Jesus as at times even conversational. I wrote my dissertation on Paul's ascent to paradise, and within that section, it's 2nd Corinthians 12. He says, I had these abundant revelations from Jesus. In Galatians, he said, I had a revelation of Jesus Christ. Then he talks about it, and I have this thorn in the flesh, which is some sort of suffering that he has as a wound almost from getting these exalted revelations.

[Dr. James Tabor]

We know that also, by the way,

[Bart Ehrman]

in other Hellenistic literature where you get

[Dr. James Tabor]

kind of wounded by your great experiences

[Bart Ehrman]

and have to come lumping back to earth.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He asked the Lord three times. He calls him the Lord, the boss.

[Bart Ehrman]

The Master said, I asked him three times.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And I got the same answer. Paul, my grace is sufficient for you.

[Bart Ehrman]

So he seems to be claiming in his letters outright of talking with Jesus. Well, none of the Gospels claim that, right? I always tell my students, don't claim for the Gospel, something they don't claim for themselves, right?

[Dr. James Tabor]

I open up Mark, he doesn't say,

[Bart Ehrman]

I was in the Spirit.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And Jesus appeared to me and said, write this down.

[Bart Ehrman]

He doesn't say anything.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He doesn't even introduce himself. And when one of the writers, Luke, does introduce himself, he basically says, this isn't visionary, this isn't revelatory.

[Bart Ehrman]

But I've been checking things out and I've been following eyewitnesses. And then I decided I'll write an account. Sounds very much like Josephus starting his Jewish wars. You know, I followed everything. And in fact, we think it might even be modeled after Josephus as a, as a kind of writing. But Paul's not like that. Paul would say almost like, have you ever heard the joke among evangelical Christians? They go, how do you know Jesus is alive?

[Dr. James Tabor]

I spoke to him this morning, that sort of thing. You know, I mean, we laugh, but

[Megan Lewis]

I think Paul is kind of saying that that's the sense you get.

[Bart Ehrman]

And later in the church, this becomes very much much of a conflict with the James wing of the church, or

[Dr. James Tabor]

Yaakov is his Hebrew Name followers of

[Bart Ehrman]

the brother of Jesus who would say

[Dr. James Tabor]

in the Pseudo Clementines, these are these second and third century writings and they don't like Paul.

[Bart Ehrman]

And they say, well, Paul, you had

[Dr. James Tabor]

a vision, but what if it was

[Bart Ehrman]

a vision of a demon? So that one you've been communicating that you say is Christ is actually the devil.

[Dr. James Tabor]

We were with him and touched him and handled him. You know, you get that even in the John's epistles. In Peter, we were there, we were witnesses. We're not just having heavenly visions.

[Bart Ehrman]

So this becomes a point of controversy later.

[Megan Lewis]

That's very interesting. So does it seem like this controversy is placing one's physical experience over and above Paul's spiritual, well, maybe spiritual revelation? Because that seems very much also at odds with how a lot of modern evangelical Christianity works. I feel like if you tell someone you saw Jesus in the flesh, they'd be a little skeptical. But having this personal spiritual connection is much more understood and expected.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's understood and it's also not falsifiable.

[Megan Lewis]

Yes, yes.

[Dr. James Tabor]

One person's experience is another person's delusion, so to speak, and it is problematic. Paul would offer as further evidence though, and this would be another thing we could add to this bio. He's met Jesus, he talks to Jesus. He claims to receive his message from

[Bart Ehrman]

Jesus and he does directly put it

[Dr. James Tabor]

above the, the other apostles. He calls them the so called pillars of the Church. And then he can't resist adding, this is Galatians. What they are means nothing to me. Well, that's kind of in your face,

[Megan Lewis]

you know, fighting words right there.

[Dr. James Tabor]

If I said something like, you know, Barth has this idea and that idea, but what Barth thinks means nothing to

[Bart Ehrman]

me because I've got my ideas.

[Dr. James Tabor]

You know, it's not very collegial.

[Bart Ehrman]

And yet he's glad to report that

[Dr. James Tabor]

they agreed with him. So since they agreed with him, they're okay.

[Bart Ehrman]

But he says if they hadn't.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And then he really ups the ante by saying, even if an angel of heaven, and he doesn't say an illusion or delusion, a real angel comes to you and tells you, I'm an angel

[Bart Ehrman]

from heaven, Yahweh sent me. And you know that guy Paul you've been listening to, he's delusional, he's crazy. You should say to that angel, to hell with you.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Literally. I mean, wow. He says, let him be accursed. But what it means is to hell with you. Now, I don't know anybody in the scriptures that makes quite that kind of bold claim. And so he clearly feels under pressure because he's being contradicted. He's got enemies that are opposing him even during his early days of preaching and teaching and traveling about. And he becomes very defensive about his authority. And there's another place that's very telling, 1 Corinthians 9, where he's talking about. He mentions James, who's basically in charge of the movement. And he makes that clear also in Galatians, he names it as James, Peter and John, in that order. But in First Corinthians 9, he's talking about, I'm not behind these other apostles. Whether it's James or Peter calls him Cephas, we think they're the same. I know Barth's talk some about that, whether they are or not, but let's say they are, or any of the other apostles.

[Bart Ehrman]

And he's talking about the authority and the rights that they have as apostles. So he basically wants to say, look,

[Dr. James Tabor]

I'm late, but I'm not the least. I didn't know him quote after the flesh.

[Bart Ehrman]

But he would add, none of us

[Dr. James Tabor]

know him after the flesh.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's Katasarka.

[Dr. James Tabor]

It means in his human life, meeting him like a human being on earth. But he says, none of us do. But I do know him in the Spirit.

[Bart Ehrman]

And then he would offer his sufferings,

[Dr. James Tabor]

I think, as part of his proof.

[Bart Ehrman]

So when he's really pressed, and that's

[Dr. James Tabor]

what my Paul's ascent to paradise deals with, because he's. I call it the battle of the apostles. He's really getting pressed by his enemies.

[Bart Ehrman]

And he says, you know what?

[Dr. James Tabor]

I'm not going to argue with you. I'm going to take off my shirt and I'm going to show you the stripes on my back. I'm going to show you the stigmata.

[Bart Ehrman]

This actually uses the word stigmata, the wounds of Christ.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And you take off your shirt and show me your wounds. I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He seems to be saying, and in Galatians even says, let no one trouble

[Bart Ehrman]

me anymore because I bear in my

[Dr. James Tabor]

body the stigmata of Christ, the wounds. And he tries to appeal to his followers in that way. You know, who do you have like me?

[Bart Ehrman]

Who do you have that doesn't take money? Who do you have that'll work night

[Dr. James Tabor]

and day and take the night shift and get off at 3am and then get up in the morning and teach you in the school, as he apparently did at Corinth?

[Bart Ehrman]

According to the book of Acts, he's a really complex bundle of defenses and claims and counterclaims. And when you read the letters, you have to kind of feel all of that. You almost want to read them aloud. You picture him maybe strutting back forth across the room. My favorite example is that First Corinthians

[Dr. James Tabor]

one where he's very upset at the group there for their different divisions that he's heard about. And guys living with his father's wife. People are getting drunk at the love feasts. The rich are taking the best food and not giving it to the poor. There's apparently divisions between Jews and Gentiles. And he's just very upset. Not exactly the ideal congregation of school group called the Yaqad.

[Bart Ehrman]

You know, we're together and he says, I declare. I'm so happy I never baptized any of you except Crispus and Gaius. This is a household. And he goes, no, I think I'm quoting it wrong. He named somebody. And then he says, oh, yeah, I think I also did baptize Stephanus or something. I've got. I don't remember the names exactly off the top of my head, but the idea is he pauses and goes after he makes the declaration. And then he goes, oh, but, yeah, okay, I do remember there was one more. I love that. And I think that's what gives us confidence that these are occasional letters. They're one side of a phone conversation. They're infinitely interesting for that reason. You know, if you can find the real letters of anyone that you study historically, it's just a really wonderful pleasure to try to delve into those letters and see all the hints and allusions. And I think all of us in the field of Christian origins are captivated by Paul because of that dynamic that

[Dr. James Tabor]

he has, that kind of realia.

[Bart Ehrman]

And he's the earliest, you know, he's the first witness that we have to anything would be Paul.

[Dr. James Tabor]

People don't think of it like that.

[Bart Ehrman]

I like to say too, Megan, no matter how you take it, he's the only eyewitness of the resurrection of Jesus. All the other reports are secondary.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Nobody else says right. Like Mark writes about. Although he doesn't have appearances. Luke writes about Matthew and John write

[Bart Ehrman]

about people seeing Jesus.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Paul says, I've seen the Lord, and he tells you, he appeared to me. And he equates it to the appearances of the other apostles. So that's kind of interesting when people say, sometimes when you get into apologetics, you'll hear some people on kind of my more skeptical side of the aisle saying, well, we have no eyewitness accounts?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, we actually do.

[Dr. James Tabor]

We have an eyewitness account, but it's apparently based on a visionary experience.

[Megan Lewis]

Whether you believe it or not is another matter.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

And I think he might be the

[Dr. James Tabor]

only first person account in antiquity of an identifiable figure who claims to have ascended to heaven, which. Check me on that. But, you know, we've got Enoch. But who's Enoch? Did he really write Enoch? I mean, nobody really thinks that. We've got a lot of pseudepigraphal accounts of ascent. In the opening of my book, Paul's

[Bart Ehrman]

Ascent to Paradise, I survey all the ascent accounts, or the main ones from

[Dr. James Tabor]

the ancient near east, the materials you work in, all the way up through the late Hellenistic period. And I think he's the only one who claims to be firsthand.

[Bart Ehrman]

Except I would maybe go with Apuleius's Metamorphoses, who's talking about Isis worship. And if you allow him to be

[Dr. James Tabor]

Lucius the character, it's an.

[Bart Ehrman]

But if you allow him to be the character, because most novelists put themselves into their novels. He does say in the first person, I ascended here and I went into the underworld and I saw the gods above and below and greeted them face to face and so forth. And it sounds like he's reflecting the initiation into the religion of Isis on a really first person level. Yeah. So I discuss that in my book,

[Dr. James Tabor]

and I think that is such a valuable account that we also have of what it's like to go up through the heavens and encounter the great God or the great power.

[Megan Lewis]

That's all really interesting. I genuinely had no idea that Paul was so such a firebrand.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh, I can tell you more. Many people know this, but since you're a novice with Paul and work a few thousand years earlier, in some cases he can be very nasty and very tender.

[Dr. James Tabor]

So if you're agreeing with him and

[Bart Ehrman]

he doesn't sense resistance and opposition, he

[Dr. James Tabor]

will be tender, he says, like a nurse with her child. So he uses nursing imagery, or a father with a son, in terms of a gentle father who would love his child and, you know, be very tender with him. But then he reverses it. He says, but if you don't listen to me, I also have a rod, I can come and whip you. Or he says, whoever disagrees with this is not accepted. That's in First Corinthians, when he's giving all these rules about how to order the congregation and they're all disruptive, and you get the idea. Some of them are saying, well, who's Paul, I don't, I don't care. You quote Paul?

[Bart Ehrman]

Who's Paul?

[Dr. James Tabor]

I don't follow Paul. I follow Paulus or I follow Peter. I follow somebody else. Then he really kind of pulls rank and he basically says, whoever does not recognize this is not recognized. And then he threatens, he says, when I get there, I will find out not just the words of these arrogant people, but their power. And you get the idea that he could really lose it in a face to face encounter in terms of having this sort of eruptive presence because it's in the letters. And then one time, I think this is the most notable, he's talking about his Jewish enemies who want his gentile converts to be circumcised, which really means to convert to Judaism, you know, take on the whole Torah of Halakic Judaism as it was in that time. And he says, you know, I just wish they would cut themselves off. And he's referring to circumcision, you know, like, go circumcise yourself. And I hope the knife slips.

[Bart Ehrman]

That might be the nastiest thing that he said.

[Megan Lewis]

It's definitely not a pleasant thing.

[Bart Ehrman]

Although telling angels to go to hell is pretty heavy too. So it's pretty funny.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Brave man, in a certain sense of the word, funny.

[Megan Lewis]

Well, thank you very much, Dr. Table. We're going to take a brief break and we will be back momentarily to talk more about Paul. We'll be going into a little bit more detail after that fantastic introduction to who Paul is and how we know who he is. And after the break, we will be talking about Paul and Jesus and mysticism and all that good stuff.

[Podcast Host Introduction]

If you're interested in the Gospels of the New Testament, the book of Genesis, the resurrection of Jesus, the historicity of the Exodus, or anything else connected with the Bible, you should check out my online courses where I cover all these topics and more. If you'd like to learn about the courses, check them [e-mail] you can receive a discount on any of your purchases simply by entering the code mjpodcast. Are you a curious person with a passion for learning but don't want to go back to school? You need to take a look at Wondrium, the streaming service that provides classes on just about everything of interest. The Crusades, neuroscience, Beethoven, photography, travel, and lots else, all presented by true experts in accessible terms. For a free trial, go to barturman.com wondrium if you decide to subscribe to Wondrium, this podcast will receive a referral fee, but that'll have no effect on the cost of your subscription, and you'll be supporting our show.

[Megan Lewis]

Welcome back, everyone. Thank you for sticking with us. This is part two of a very special episode with Dr. Table on the Apostle Paul, and we are going to be continuing our conversation and finding out more about Paul's mystical spiritual side, which isn't really something that comes in in the Gospels so much. So I'm very much looking forward to this part of our discussion. So you were saying that obviously Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, but would say that he did still meet him. Would you elaborate on that a little bit?

[Dr. James Tabor]

Yeah, Paul a couple of times when he talks about the resurrection of Jesus, he says, last of all, he appeared to me. And he mentions Peter, James, the 12, 500 others. And then he says, last of all. And you almost want to add, but not least because he goes on to say several times in his letters, I was last, but I labored harder than them all.

[Megan Lewis]

Is Paul jealous of everyone who did in fact manage to meet him forthright

[Bart Ehrman]

about his opposition to the movement?

[Dr. James Tabor]

He makes it very clear that he persecuted the movement. Whether we want to go with the book of Acts, that he's having people killed or whatever, we're not sure. But he certainly opposed it. And he said he was part of the Pharisees.

[Bart Ehrman]

He does say that, just like Josephus

[Dr. James Tabor]

tells us that, and he was of the tribe of Benjamin that he exceeded in his study of Judaism.

[Bart Ehrman]

I try to leave Acts out because Acts would say, oh, yeah, he studied

[Dr. James Tabor]

with Hillel, Gamaliel, and so forth. And we simply don't particularly Gamaliel. I. He never says that, but possibly that's what he's referring to. But then when he finally begins talking, and also, I should add, he says in First Corinthians 9, have I not seen the Lord? And then he names James, Cephas, and the other apostles and saying, in effect, you know, I've had that same experience. I've seen the Lord. And you take it that it's the risen Lord now, because people are reading the Gospels first. This is the big problem with the New Testament. I don't suggest you get a razor blade, but it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Bart Ehrman]

You just separate them all out, put

[Dr. James Tabor]

them in chronological order and read them differently. Because if you start with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which so many people do, you know, I'm going to read

[Bart Ehrman]

the New Testament, then you're already predisposed to assume that seeing the Lord means a resuscitated corpse walking around Jerusalem and making Appearances to people who touch him and look at his wounds and doubt or not doubt. And that might not be at all what Paul is talking about. And Paul fits much more the idea

[Dr. James Tabor]

of what we call in Hellenistic religions, Hellenistic culture, an apotheosis.

[Bart Ehrman]

This means being taken up into heaven as a human.

[Dr. James Tabor]

So somebody born of a woman is

[Bart Ehrman]

carried up into heaven and sometimes stays up there in a glorified state and becomes a God.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Augustus, for example, when he dies, there's a funeral of the emperor Augustus.

[Bart Ehrman]

We have good accounts of it.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And one of the senators swears that he saw his soul ascending to heaven. And one of the astrologers said, yeah, we found the star. We found a new star. It never existed before.

[Bart Ehrman]

That's Augustus. And we got lots of accounts like

[Dr. James Tabor]

that of what we call astral immortality. It's very common in the Hellenistic world.

[Bart Ehrman]

Some of my favorite examples of that

[Dr. James Tabor]

are on funerary inscriptions where someone had put on their grave. You get two extremes. One is somebody who doesn't think there's anything when you die. I was. I was not. I am not. I don't care. I love that one. That's pretty widespread, you know, kind of like, you know, what were you in 1822? Well, you're not really worried about it. So what will you be in 2122? Well, about the same as you were in 1822. It's sort of that attitude.

[Bart Ehrman]

And then there's another one I like. It says, don't come to my grave and pour wine on my grave. Because they would have these annual funerary parties, and particularly in Italy, still done today, by the way. And you give old George a little bit of a drink, right? And a wee drum, right? And he says, you'll only make mud. I'm not there.

[Megan Lewis]

It's not going to work.

[Bart Ehrman]

Just let me rest. But you also get some that say, weep not for me, weep for yourselves, for I have become a star that appears in the evening. So that's that. Astral immortality. Now, people have trouble thinking of Jesus as an apotheosis, if we could make a verb out of it, Deity. Because they're so used to the Gospels

[Megan Lewis]

where you want that body and physicality.

[Bart Ehrman]

But, you know, that really starts with Luke. And I don't want to get into Bart's territory because I know he covers this all the time, but comparing it to Paul in Luke, it's like, touch me. I'm flesh and bones.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Feel.

[Bart Ehrman]

Dig your hand in the flesh. Feel that bone under there. I'm not a ghost. And that seems to be very apologetic because later we know people like Celsus are saying He's a early 2nd century writer who says he, you know, okay, all of your guys saw Jesus, but maybe they just saw a ghost. I mean, their ghost stories multiplied all over the Hellenistic world. How would we know? They go, oh no, no, no, they ate with him, they touched him. So everybody, sorry.

[Megan Lewis]

Does that difference in treatment and description speak to Paul's maybe comfort with the Hellenistic religious background and the other gospels? Discomfort with it, yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

And yet in the other gospels, Mark has no appearances, and yet he says he's risen. So I think Mark is actually reflecting more of the apotheosis view or my teacher at Chicago, Norman Perrin used to say that the transfiguration, as it's called in Mark chapter 9, where Jesus appears on a mountain shining and like the sun and glory, and then Elijah and Moses appear with him, that that's a proleptic resurrection testimony.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That in other words, what Mark wants you to believe is that he has attained that status which the disciples saw

[Bart Ehrman]

a foretaste of in a vision in his life.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And in fact the young man, notice it's not an angel in the tomb, says, go into Galilee and you'll see him. As he said, like you're going to have this vision. And Matthew even says they did have

[Bart Ehrman]

that vision and some doubted, which is

[Dr. James Tabor]

very interesting, that it doesn't seem to be a flesh and blood encounter. So Paul is more clearly with the visionary experience.

[Bart Ehrman]

And then when you ask him, which people do ask him, what kind of

[Dr. James Tabor]

a resurrection body is it going to be?

[Bart Ehrman]

He says, well, it'll be like Christ. He says that just like Christ. And then you say, next question, you

[Dr. James Tabor]

know, what was that like?

[Bart Ehrman]

He doesn't say, oh well, he was 5 foot 8 and I could see his beard and I saw the wound. He doesn't say that. He says, you know, I can't tell you what kind of a body is

[Dr. James Tabor]

the apotheosis sized body, the body assumed into heaven.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's a body that God gives it.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Just as on earth the person had

[Bart Ehrman]

a physical body, flesh and blood. He says, but in the heavenly kingdom of God, you'll have this.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He actually calls it a wind body, using the word pneuma, you know, for wind or spirit. So you could call it a spirit

[Bart Ehrman]

body, but spirit body implies like ghost.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I think it has, as Litwa and others have pointed out over and over again, you know, in the Hellenistic world

[Bart Ehrman]

that stuff up there is still stuff,

[Dr. James Tabor]

but it's like airy Stuff.

[Bart Ehrman]

So you get a. I like to

[Dr. James Tabor]

just call it an air body.

[Bart Ehrman]

You say, well then, but it's a body, meaning it has a definition or

[Dr. James Tabor]

a shape, has personal identity. I can walk up to you, Megan, and say, oh, Megan, you were Megan

[Bart Ehrman]

in that lower world. Yeah, I think I remember you too. So somehow there would be this communication,

[Dr. James Tabor]

presumably preserving the entity.

[Bart Ehrman]

But when he says he's seen the Lord, maybe the Book of Acts is on the right track. When it says it's like a blinding light, light of some type. Otherwise when he's asked what kind of a body, he would just say, well, you know, I always joke with my students, what's the prime of life? What if you're going to get raised in a body, what would you pick?

[Megan Lewis]

Which, which stage do you want?

[Bart Ehrman]

Most of them are in their 20s and they probably would say, you know, 25 or 30.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I don't know, I'd probably go with 30. I think that's a pretty good body

[Bart Ehrman]

at age 30, as I've now passed that. But he doesn't say that. He didn't say, no, it'll be a perfected physical body with all your blemishes removed, or your wounds or your liabilities, handicaps, whatever. He doesn't say that either. He says God will give us the body that is appropriate to that existence. So he clearly is in this world of the ethereal, the upper levels of the cosmos. And even though in his one account of his own ascent to paradise or to heaven, he.

[Dr. James Tabor]

He mentions a third heaven, I think

[Bart Ehrman]

he's actually, I argue in my book Paul's Ascent to Paradise that it's a two stage journey, that you first go

[Dr. James Tabor]

up to the third heaven and that's usually as far as you get.

[Bart Ehrman]

But then in some of our texts

[Dr. James Tabor]

is the world of the dead where they're being kind of held, they're no longer under the world. In our later texts, they're sort of like in the Book of Enoch and so forth and some of the other or the Enoch literature, let's say, because you're not the Book of Enoch. But then he says, and furthermore, I was caught up into paradise. And I think that would be what we would call the seventh heaven or the heaven beyond the heavens. But in Hellenistic cosmology in general, you definitely have seven planetary spheres or astral spheres. And all of the religions who have a deity, an ultimate deity, a kind of unnamed ultimate force of all forces, they would put that force in the highest realm, beyond the material world. And of course the earth is the Lowest. So this is the muck. It's already a kind of proto Gnosticism just to say that we're. We're the muck. You know, we're down in the mud. But we have kind of a diamond like God, like essence, made in the image of God, if you take the Hebrew phrase or. Somebody once used diamonds in the mud. I like that because diamonds sparkle and shine, but they're down in the muck. And so these diamonds need to be, you know, taken up into the higher realm where they really belong.

[Bart Ehrman]

So I don't think we can remove

[Dr. James Tabor]

Paul from that realm. He would say that ultimately humans are destined for a heavenly destiny, all humans, by potential. And God has called certain ones Jesus first. He's the firstborn, first one to experience

[Bart Ehrman]

this glorification from flesh to the glorified spirit. And he says he's the firstborn of many others, many other children, this kind of divine family of glorified beings. And that's a really big thing for Paul, I think it's his big cosmic insight. So he feels that he has proleptically visited that and then come back to tell about it. We get that in some accounts where you experience it, but then you come back. So it's like a foretaste. And then he can tell people, look, I eye is not seen or ear heard. It hasn't even entered your heart. The things God's prepared for those who love him. But I've seen it.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I've been there, believe me.

[Bart Ehrman]

You want to go, go into C.S.

[Dr. James Tabor]

lewis.

[Bart Ehrman]

You'll be surprised by joy.

[Megan Lewis]

Does that differ substantially from maybe a traditional Jewish understanding of the afterlife that maybe Paul was raised with?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, it's interesting because he's willing to use resurrection and usually resurrection.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I mean, in the most literal sense. Dead stand up, right? The dead breathe again. They stand up all the way back to Ezekiel, you know, the bones shall these bones live Job longing. You know, maybe someday God will pull me out of the dust or something like that. And then you get the passage in

[Bart Ehrman]

Daniel that is getting into the Maccabean period.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Many of those who sleep in the dust will awake, but it goes on

[Bart Ehrman]

to say they'll shine like the stars forever. So that's already reflecting this Hellenistic view. So just to have a resuscitated corpse

[Dr. James Tabor]

doesn't do it in the Hellenistic period because you're still going to be mortal.

[Bart Ehrman]

And even if you were an immortal, resuscitated corpse, you haven't escaped the real world, you haven't escaped fate. We have to remember The Hellenistic world, as you well know, and the ancient Near Eastern world is thickly populated and layered with these forces and powers, the chthonic powers, all the way down to the lower world. And so you could be walking around

[Dr. James Tabor]

with your physical body and somehow the

[Bart Ehrman]

aging process has been stopped.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And like Superman, you maybe can't be killed or something, or a superhero, but

[Bart Ehrman]

you're still stuck in the lower world,

[Dr. James Tabor]

the world of sin and death.

[Bart Ehrman]

So salvation in all Hellenistic religions of salvation is getting away, getting out, escaping and going home.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I mean, it always is that. And therefore, he says, I entered into paradise, which would be, in his view, at least, where humans once started. I don't think that's the view of Genesis 1, by the way, or 2 and 3, but I think that's. It's not the ancient Near Eastern view,

[Bart Ehrman]

but it's the Hellenistic view.

[Dr. James Tabor]

It's a new creation. It's spoken of in metaphors, of course, but Paul doesn't really describe it.

[Bart Ehrman]

The closest he comes to saying the perfected state is God will be all things to all.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And that's at the very end when

[Bart Ehrman]

all enemies are conquered, when death is no more, he says, and God will

[Dr. James Tabor]

be all things to all. So you could even argue that Paul might be a universalist of sort because he believes that sin and death have brought us down into this mortal state, but that ultimately could call them souls or entities will be released, or could be released, but they're still embodied. I think that's the difference.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah. Is Paul's understanding of the afterlife carried forward further into early Christianity, or is it maybe not abandoned? But do you get more of the resuscitated corpse view?

[Bart Ehrman]

There's a contradiction here. If you're defending resurrection of the dead,

[Dr. James Tabor]

you go for the corpse because it's concrete. It shows that they ate and drank with him, and that's very important. In Luke, particularly the Book of Acts, we ate and drank with him for 40 days. So we know we weren't being deluded every day by ghosts. And Matthew's that way too. You know, corpses come out and walk around and appear to people, which is one of the more bizarre statements in the Gospels. When Jesus dies, presumably they died later. So that gets continued, particularly at funerals, which is really odd because you'll go to a funeral and during the service. You went to Anglican funerals, I'm sure

[Bart Ehrman]

during the service you tend to take

[Dr. James Tabor]

a more apotheosis view that our dear departed brother has gone to be with Christ in heaven. And that's shorthand for salvation. You know, I remember evangelical Christians used to stop us on campus when I was young in college and say, if you were to die tonight, do you absolutely know you would go to heaven?

[Megan Lewis]

Why would you go?

[Dr. James Tabor]

Well, that's not a biblical question. It should be, do you absolutely know on the last great day that God will remember you and raise you from the dead and immortalize you and take you to heaven? But I've never heard anybody suggest that.

[Megan Lewis]

It's too much of a mouthful.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's very much.

[Dr. James Tabor]

It's more Plato than Paul. You know, Coleman has his famous essay, Resurrection of the Dead and Immortality of the Soul, in which he tries to stress that the Platonic, general Hellenistic view

[Bart Ehrman]

of immortality of the soul is not

[Dr. James Tabor]

the same as resurrection of the dead.

[Bart Ehrman]

But then by the time he begins to describe it, it starts sounding kind of the same at the very end. Because if you've got a resurrected soul in heaven and it's no longer physical, but it's still embodied, is that so

[Dr. James Tabor]

different from an identifiable soul like Socrates, who is going to go and be with the gods? So anyway.

[Bart Ehrman]

But then when you go to the graveside, we're putting the body in the tomb, and then we're going to read passages about. And on that day, we know that our dear brother or sister will come forth from the tomb. And you read all those passages in John, the dead will hear the voice of God and come forth from their graves. And then it starts sounding like, I don't want to make fun of it, but kind of zombie apocalypse in the sense that.

[Megan Lewis]

Like a little bit, yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

I play this for my students. I play Michael Jackson's Thriller. And you believe it or not, they remember it after, what is it, 30 years ago it came out. They still know it. It's on YouTube, and they know his music. And if you remember, it's the corpses coming out and dancing and so forth. And yet we know just, you know, these are just facts. People are lost at sea, people are cremated. Bodies are often never recovered. So to talk about finding bodies and somehow assembling them, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. So people usually go to these, you know, heaven idea that you. You go to heaven and your body is dust and it goes back to the earth. But a lot of that was also because of the delay of the Paris or the coming of Christ in Paul's lifetime.

[Dr. James Tabor]

See, if I'm bearing my brother or

[Bart Ehrman]

sister here and I think Christ is

[Dr. James Tabor]

coming next summer, then, you know, I

[Bart Ehrman]

could talk about, okay, this is a temporary burial, physical resurrection.

[Megan Lewis]

Is much more rare.

[Bart Ehrman]

You're going to get raised. But after a hundred years, a thousand years, millennia, and many people don't have graves. The vast majority of people have ever lived don't have graves. There's no memory, there's no record of them whatsoever. So God presumably knows all of them and will quote, bring them forth, but not their bodies, you see. So I think the church tended to go for the heaven emphasis because it can't be falsified. I mean, resurrection of the body can be falsified. Like dig up a grave, it's still there, right?

[Dr. James Tabor]

Or it's scattered over the wind or whatever.

[Bart Ehrman]

So I hope that doesn't sound cynical, but no, no, I was wondering as a kid, because I. I went to funerals, you know, I'm seven, eight years old, and I couldn't put this together.

[Megan Lewis]

No, it actually bothered me too, because

[Bart Ehrman]

they're in the longest time they're going to come out of. And especially if you're really little and you go, but they're putting grandma in the dirt, you know, but, oh, he said she's going to come back when Christ returns. And you go, like, I don't know what that means.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, when is that exactly?

[Bart Ehrman]

He's definitely heavenly oriented. One of the passages that really fits Here, Megan, is Second Corinthians 5. Everybody overlooks this for some reason. And it starts the end of chapter four. You know, our chapter divisions are put in later where he says, we look to the things that are unseen, not

[Dr. James Tabor]

to the things that are seen.

[Bart Ehrman]

For the things that are seen are temporary and the things that are unseen are eternal. Right out of Plato.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I mean, it's perfect Platonic dualism.

[Bart Ehrman]

And then he says, but if this earthly tent we live in, very Platonic,

[Dr. James Tabor]

like the body's a tent, a prison is dissolved.

[Bart Ehrman]

Then we have a building not made

[Dr. James Tabor]

with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[Bart Ehrman]

You get this in several apocalyptic texts

[Dr. James Tabor]

like Second Enoch and so forth.

[Bart Ehrman]

I think it's in parts of the collection of first Enoch where your heavenly

[Dr. James Tabor]

garments that you're going to wear later are already there. They're hanging there for you.

[Bart Ehrman]

And then he says, but we don't want to be found naked.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That would be without the body, but

[Bart Ehrman]

further clothed or reclothed. Whereas I think Socrates in the Apology, you know, it's like, don't wait for me. You're the guys that have to stay behind here.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I'm going to up to be with the gods.

[Bart Ehrman]

And you don't get the idea that he thinks he's taking his body with him. And that's where we get that famous statement where he's asked by, is it credo, but where shall we bury you?

[Dr. James Tabor]

And he says, anywhere you want, if you can catch me. And that's where you get that famous phrase, catch me if you can. And it's lovely.

[Bart Ehrman]

Just a lovely play on Hellenistic thought there.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Like, you're going to bury me or you're going to bury my body. Are you saying my body's me? And that's just irresistible for people, I think, to believe.

[Bart Ehrman]

If you're going to believe in afterlife, resuscitated corpses are just kind of less attractive, and they're gone. So what are you going to resuscitate?

[Dr. James Tabor]

You know.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah. Does Paul's view of the afterlife differ substantially from other Hellenistic views, or is it pretty much in line with what you'd expect?

[Bart Ehrman]

I think it differs with this body business. But then soma, if Paul means soma as a mode of having personal identity,

[Dr. James Tabor]

I mean, the metaphor is he uses tent and then permanent building. He uses old clothing and new clothing. So the metaphor sounds like you take off something, then you're naked or unhoused, untented, and then you put on a new thing. You live in a permanent house, you get new immortal clothing. So it sounds like it's a thing you get.

[Bart Ehrman]

But then if you take it as a way of.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Since he can't tell you what it

[Bart Ehrman]

is, he says, I can't tell you what it is. He said it's like planting a seed. And what comes up from the seed is not the. The seed, it's completely different. And God will give it a body as pleases him.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That's what he says.

[Bart Ehrman]

But if he means by body what

[Dr. James Tabor]

I think he means, a mode of

[Bart Ehrman]

existence, as opposed to the stoic view of sort of a kind of vaporous

[Dr. James Tabor]

melting into the cosmos in an undifferentiated way, contributing to the whole, the drop of water in the pond kind of thing, then there is nobody, because your essence is going to contribute to the essence of the whole.

[Bart Ehrman]

So it could be.

[Dr. James Tabor]

By body, he doesn't mean any kind of shape or anything like that, but somehow you keep. It'll be you, somehow your personal identity, which is really interesting to think about,

[Bart Ehrman]

but I'm not sure that's so different from, like.

[Dr. James Tabor]

My favorite story is, you know, the one where Romulus is giving an address on the Palatine Hill, and suddenly he rises up and it says his body melts like a shot going into the air, you know, as it gets hotter and hotter. And then finally he just glows up in heaven like a star.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, a star has a body, right? It has an. And Paul does talk about different celestial bodies, meaning entities. So I think he's not that different. But when you throw in the Jewish word resurrection with all its corpse connotations, it gets people confused. And then they go back to the Gospels and they get really confused because that would mean Jesus ascended to heaven as a physical corpse with his body.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

And presumably at that point he would

[Dr. James Tabor]

melt away and become this light being or something like that. But that's never recounted in the book of Luke.

[Bart Ehrman]

It just says he went away and he's coming back. You wonder if they had a really anthropomorphic view that, you know, he's just up there above a few, just kind of hanging out.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, that was going to be my next question. Do you know anywhere in the New Testament when it talks about Jesus second coming, is it ever explicit that there will be a physical human shaped body or is it just he will come back?

[Bart Ehrman]

The most explicit you get is they will see the sign of the Son of Man.

[Dr. James Tabor]

That seems to be some sort of cosmic manifestation or something coming in the clouds of glory. That also sounds sort of cosmic. Sun, star image. And then Paul does talk about the those who are alive will rise to

[Bart Ehrman]

meet him in the air and the dead will also rise incorruptible and meet him. And the fact that they're like meeting him does seem to imply, you know, some concreteness to his identity. Now he does say, and let's see, I'm staying with the seven letters here, Philippians 3, 20 and 21. He says, When Christ returns, he will change our body of humiliation, our lowly

[Dr. James Tabor]

body, it's translated our corruptible body. What he means is our stinking smelling body to be like his glorious body. So he still does refer to his body, but again, what does he mean by soma?

[Bart Ehrman]

Because he's already said there are different somas. There's stars have soma and different beings have soma throughout the cosmos. So I don't tend to think that he's thinking of it. I think he's thinking of it more

[Dr. James Tabor]

like we would think of like a

[Bart Ehrman]

point of light or something like that.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And that would be you'll be drawn to this light presence, but it's defined in his mind.

[Bart Ehrman]

But the real problem is that never happens. And then you've got to say, well, what happens when we die?

[Dr. James Tabor]

Will we bury you? So I got rid of my tent, now I'm untented, I'm naked, no clothing. Where am I? And he says, well, you're with Christ. You're with Christ, but then you're going to meet him when he comes.

[Bart Ehrman]

So it's almost like Christ fills heaven and earth, and so you're in his keeping or something like that. I think it's an attempt to talk old ancient Near Eastern language with new

[Dr. James Tabor]

Hellenistic language and not change the words that much, but make them fit, you know.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, it's very interesting. It sounds like he's trying to explain something in a way that people will find relatable, using language that they understand. But explaining something that is so different. Maybe, yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

Preserving the corpse, you know, becomes really important in Judaism. There's even the rabbinic myth about a neck bone.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Have you heard this?

[Bart Ehrman]

That survives no matter what happens, Even if the body's cremated, that neck bone will still be there, and that's all God needs to then build the rest. It sounds like DNA replication to me,

[Dr. James Tabor]

which is really odd.

[Bart Ehrman]

You know, we just need just a little skin sample and we can make

[Megan Lewis]

you again just enough that we know it.

[Bart Ehrman]

People are clowning their dogs now after they die. This is happening. There was a special on 60 Minutes

[Dr. James Tabor]

or something about this where you get

[Bart Ehrman]

exactly the dog you had.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Wow. But it's like, not your dog.

[Bart Ehrman]

Your dog's gone.

[Dr. James Tabor]

But they can implant it in the uterus of a host dog, and then it can. Well, first it has to grow to the point of being planable, I guess.

[Bart Ehrman]

Cloning, basically. Kind of scary stuff, a little. Paul does talk about departing and being with Christ, and that's important. And I think that's toward the end of his life. It's in Philippians, one of the latest letters.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And he doesn't think he's going to meet Christ anymore, and he doesn't think. He thinks he's going to die.

[Bart Ehrman]

And he refers to his death as departing. Departing, like leaving and being with Christ. So does that negate the later apocalypticism? I. I don't think so. I think he thinks that when you die, you go into the presence of Christ. But then you would wait for. Because he calls it sleep.

[Dr. James Tabor]

You'd be sort of unconscious, so you're somewhere else.

[Megan Lewis]

But not fully.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Fully.

[Bart Ehrman]

Certainly not active in the cosmos as

[Dr. James Tabor]

you would be later in the future.

[Bart Ehrman]

So Gilgamesh is interesting because you work on older stuff, and it sounds like Unapishtim and his wife. They're still physical, aren't they? Sort of. On the island.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, because they're immortal. So they definitely do that because they eat bread they're still.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's just like Isles of the Blessed or something like that. So he. He loses the chance to. To have that. But it's nothing about going to heaven, but it is going beyond the this.

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah. They're not still in, like, physical society. They're somewhere else.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

Somewhere else. Yeah.

[Megan Lewis]

Well, thank you very much for your time. That was really fascinating.

[Bart Ehrman]

They probably thoroughly confused everybody now.

[Megan Lewis]

They'll say, it's good for you. It's good for you. It's very good for you.

[Dr. James Tabor]

I do have an article. You can get it on my blog post, free. It's called what the Bible Really Says About Death, Afterlife in the Future in one article.

[Bart Ehrman]

And Morton Smith and Joe Hoffman asked

[Dr. James Tabor]

me to write it years ago in a volume called what the Bible Really Says. And I said to them, you are effing kidding. You want one article on the Bible?

[Megan Lewis]

This is a can of worms.

[Dr. James Tabor]

And you want Death, Afterlife and the future. Thank you. I'll give it a try.

[Megan Lewis]

It definitely doesn't sound like an entire book.

[Dr. James Tabor]

No. So anyway, I did it and you can read it. It's quite a survey.

[Megan Lewis]

Well, thank you so much, audience. Thank you for joining us.

[Dr. James Tabor]

Thank you for having me and look forward to.

[Megan Lewis]

We will be back next week, so please join us then.

This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.