← Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
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- [00:01]
Podcast Announcer
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- [00:54]
Megan Lewis
Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar wrestled uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host Megan Lewis. Let's begin. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Misquoting Jesus. Today we are continuing our look at the Book of Revelation and asking the question, is the Christ of Revelation out for blood? As we've seen already, Revelation is a particularly violent book of the New Testament with depictions of war, destruction and death that can seem somewhat at odds with the peace loving Christ that some Christians are more comfortable and familiar with. Is the contents of Revelation in line with the teachings of Jesus seen elsewhere in the New Testament? Or is this something else entirely? But before we get into that, Bart, hello. How are you doing this week?
- [01:48]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah, I'm doing fine. I'm actually in our mountain house. You might be able to see behind me. We have this house up in the mountains so we're taking a long weekend up here. It's nice to get away for some reason. I don't know why, but like if you're away from home, even if you put as much time in doing the things you're doing, you get much more done. I don't know why that is. I mean it seems like time is time. Yeah. Fewer distractions. Yeah. How's your life going right now?
- [02:16]
Megan Lewis
Yeah, good. Relatively smooth. Actually. I was mentioning before we started recording all of my children are healthy which is these days quite the feat. I don't know how we managed it, but it means I too am getting a lot of things done.
- [02:27]
Bart Ehrman
Wow. Okay, good. We'll consider that a miracle, given the recent history. So well done.
- [02:35]
Megan Lewis
So for those unfamiliar with Jesus in Revelation, Bart, what role does he play in the book?
- [02:42]
Bart Ehrman
You know, he's the central figure. The very first vision of the book is when the. The prophet John, John of Patmos, he has a vision. The very first vision he has is of Christ in chapter one. And it's set up. The vision is set up to show that Jesus is just unbelievably spectacular and powerful. He's this figure who's. Who is dressed in a. In a robe with a gold sash. And so he's kind of in a royal garb. He has a sword coming out of his mouth, and he's got brazen feet. So this is a startling image. And the sword coming out of his mouth is an image, obviously, but it's. We're gonna later learn that this garb that he's wearing is the garb of angels later in the book Revelation, who are going to be wreaking massive destruction on the earth. And the sword out of his mouth is one that he's going to be using later in the book in order to slaughter his enemies at the battle of Armageddon. This is a fairly fierce image. And he's called one like a son of man, which is a reference to Daniel, chapter seven. John calls him that. And so Daniel seven, the one like a son of man is this divine figure who comes from heaven to destroy the enemies of God and set up a kingdom on earth. And so he's this very powerful divine judge. And so that's the beginning. That's how Jesus starts. And the last image of Jesus is at the battle of Armageddon toward the end of the book, where Jesus and his troops from heaven do battle with the beast from the sea. Who's this Antichrist figure? Who's the enemy of God? It's not even a battle. They just slaughter them like in no time at all. And so the beginning and ending of the book have these images of the divine warrior Christ. The book is all about the war that Christ wages against the earth.
- [04:37]
Megan Lewis
So in that even just the briefest of summaries, we can see destruction, violence. And Jesus is a central figure in all of this activity. He leads God's army. He loses the four horsemen on the whole world and various other disasters. How does this violence and this role as divine warrior match up with how he's portrayed in the Gospels?
- [05:00]
Bart Ehrman
You know, this is the interesting thing about scholars. There are a lot of biblical scholars, of course, and there are a Number who study Revelation. And the majority, I think the majority, at least the majority of them who publish on this book, argue that Christ is not portrayed as a violent figure. Wow. Which text are they reading? They have, you know, arguments that they use. In fact, there have been entire books written developing this argument that when John first goes up to heaven, he shoots up through this window in the sky and he sees the throne room of God, as we discussed in a previous episode. And God is holding this scroll in his hand that has sealed with seven seals. And John learns that the one who can break these reveals is the lion from the tribe of Judah. And he looks around, he doesn't see there's no lion there, but he sees this lamb who has been slain. And the lamb takes the scroll from God. And so commentators who want to argue that John's Christ, John of Patmos, Christ, is nonviolent center on that image that this is the Lamb of God who's been slain. It's the innocent sufferer who is Christ up in heaven, and. And that vengeance comes on the earth not because he's violent, but because he had violence done against him. And so in this view, revelation promotes nonviolence, which. Okay, except that, you know, I really. It's a stunning reading for all sorts of. It's stunning because. Wow. But it's stunning because it's so contrary to what the text is saying, because when this Lamb of God takes the scroll, he starts breaking them and he brings all the disasters on the earth. And so it's not that this lion of the tribe of Judah has become a lamb. It's the opposite. The lamb has become a lion. And you compare that with the Gospels of Jesus in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, where Jesus is an advocate of nonviolence, he's a pacifist. Those who are harmed are to turn the other cheek. They're not to go back for blood. They're to turn the other cheek. That you're supposed to love your enemy. You're supposed to do good to those who harm you. You're not supposed to be violent. And so I think it's a very different image, the whole New Testament, different authors have different understandings of Jesus, but I'd say this one is radically different from what you get in the Gospels.
- [07:16]
Megan Lewis
Does Jesus ever advocate for any kind of violence, like divine retribution or justice, or is it just purely a peaceable figure that we see?
- [07:25]
Bart Ehrman
Well, you know, so two things about it. Let me first say something about that in Revelation, because it turns out that these people who argue that revelation is nonviolent. These scholars who argue this also say that, that even though all of these heavenly judgments are coming against the earth, Christ or God never tells anyone else to be violent. And so it's non violent in the sense that, you know, people are not urged to be violent. And that turns out to be completely false. It's not true. When you have the pronouncement of the fall of Babylon. Later in the book, Christ tells the people, leave Babylon. Babylon is the code word for Rome. And so Rome is the enemy of the people of God in Revelation, where they're told to come out, come out from there. And then the reason people don't notice that, what I'm going to tell you is because they're reading it in English. But these Greek scholars should know better. In fact, I've talked with this a number of New Testament scholars who told me, oh, I didn't notice that when they're told to come out of Babylon, they're told to return the grief that has been laid upon them by the inhabitants of Babylon, double fold and torment them double fold for the torment they received. And people don't notice it because people think, oh, that must be referring to like to an angel or something. He's telling the angel to give double fold. But no, when you look at it in the Greek, he's talking to the people who have been the Christians coming out of Rome and he's telling them in the second person plural, you grieve them twice as much as they grieved you and you torment them as much as they tormented you. So it's a command of violence. And you do not get that in the Gospels. What he says is love your enemy. He doesn't say, yeah, okay, go after them and destroy twice as many of them as destroyed you. It doesn't say that.
- [09:11]
Megan Lewis
So do we ever see Jesus saying, take up the sword for example. And how does that relate to this kind of peaceable figure that you've been talking about?
- [09:19]
Bart Ehrman
Well, there are a couple passages that can be used to show that Jesus promoted violence. I think most scholars aren't convinced that they do suggests Jesus promotes violence because the dominant theme throughout Matthew, Mark and Luke and John is, you know, don't be violent. But you have these passages where, for example, in the Gospel of Luke, well, in the garden of Gethsemane and all three in the Gospels, in the garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus is arrested, his followers protect him. They pull out a sword. And one of them, in one of the accounts, the priest's servant gets his ear lopped off by one of the disciples with a sword. And people, some people say, well, look, you know, what are they doing with swords? They're following Jesus. And so, like, if they're following Jesus, they're following what he wants them to do. And they're armed. So doesn't that suggest an armed rebellion? That kind of overlooks what happens next, which is Jesus says, put away your sword. The one who lives by the sword will die by the sword. He is not sanctioning this in the Gospels. But the other passage people point to is this kind of a strange one in the Gospel of Luke where the disciples are getting ready to head out in these last hours and Jesus talks to them about the swords, and they say, well, we got two swords, Jesus, that's enough. People tend to think that that means, okay, they' be so powerful, they're going to wipe people, everyone out with two swords. And the other way to interpret this is Jesus saying, yeah, okay, you got two. Yeah, look. Okay, that's. You don't need swords. You're going to be kissing. All right, okay, two's enough. That's fine. Jesus never sanctions violence in the Gospel. He's a pacifist, and he's just the opposite in Revelation.
- [10:53]
Megan Lewis
Has anyone hypothesized why John of Patmos would have taken the peaceable figure seen in the Gospels, the pacifist that I think many Christians are familiar with, and presented him as such a violent entity? Why not show him as a benevolent ruler who regretfully executes sinners in some manner, like painless manner, rather than actually torturing them?
- [11:19]
Bart Ehrman
I know, I know. It's the question, and it's a disturbing question. The reality is that ever since the days of Jesus, and even during the days of Jesus, people paint Jesus in their own image. You can see this in the history of scholarship, when scholars actually study these sources and try to figure out who Jesus really was. The scholars, personal beliefs about things and the kind of generation they're living in completely affect the portrayal of Jesus that comes out. This was the big point of Albert Schweitzer when he wrote his book the Quest of the Historical Jesus. You know, over 100 years ago. It was in 1906 where he argued that every generation of scholars paints Jesus in its own image. And he showed it. That's what his book is about, showing that, you know, at certain periods of time, this is the kind of the ruling religious and ideological views. And turns out Jesus is like that. And the next generation has these kinds of Ideological. And Jesus turns out to be like that. The funny thing is that scholars since 1906 have said, yeah, see, all those other earlier scholars were painting Jesus in their own image. But, you know, we're going to do it objectively now. And if you look back at what they did, it's the same thing. And so, like, in the 70s and 80s, you started getting all these books by like, people from the Jesus seminar, which was a, you know, a group of scholars and other people are writing these books about Jesus. And it turns out that he's this countercultural critic where he's. He's opposed to the kind of, the mores of the ruling culture. And he's an anti establishment. You know, he's against the establishment, against the. And these books are all written by guys who grew up in the 60s. They're all guys, by the way, the guys who grew up in the 60s in college campuses in the 60s. It's like, you know, so Jesus is a college guy from the 60s. I mean, he's a countercultural, you know, so it's absolutely right. The thing is, if somebody is a violent person themselves and they believe in violence to solve problems, and they're a warmonger or they think that. That the only way to solve things is with violence, then that's how Jesus is. So today, you know, we still have this phenomenon today. There are books that come out today that are, you know, Jesus was a capitalist, Jesus was a Marxist, Jesus was a feminist. Jesus was. Was this, that or the other thing. Like in the 40s, Jesus was an Aryan. And today we have Jesus is a white nationalist, you know, or Jesus wants you to be rich. I mean, so you get all these. But, well, John had his views. The author of John had his views, and it's quite clear what his views were. His views were that the Romans have all the power and all the wealth, and the Christians should have those things. They're the good people. And so God's going to take it from the Romans and give it to the Christians. So the Christians will be powerful, they'll be massively rich. And the way that's going to happen is God's going to destroy the other guys.
- [14:03]
Megan Lewis
So you mentioned God a second ago, which is perhaps unsurprising given that we're talking about the Bible and we'll be talking more about this in the next episode. But just to briefly touch on that, would you say that John, when writing Revelation, is directly attributing this violence and destruction to Jesus? Or is Jesus merely carrying out God's will. So should we as readers be holding Jesus accountable for this destruction, like after he breaks the seals on the scroll? Or is this something that is entirely down to Yahweh?
- [14:37]
Bart Ehrman
I think the author of John thought the answer is both. He sees Jesus and God as completely on the same page. On this one, it's God who has the scroll. And so it's the will of God that's wrapped up in this book that needs to be unsealed. But it's only the Lamb who can unseal the book. And so that's why elsewhere in the book, we're told on a number of occasions that the book is about the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb. And so they're both wrathful. God is opposed to his enemies on earth, and Christ is out for revenge. And vengeance is a big word in the book of Revelation. Unlike words like love and hope, vengeance and blood are very big. And they are rooted in the actions of both Christ and God.
- [15:29]
Megan Lewis
And now Jesus as the general, as the king, the military leader. I think much more closely conforms to the expectations of the apostles, when Jesus came and was identified as the Messiah, than the reality they were ultimately presented with. Do you think that revelation is maybe a late reflection of those early expectations, or is it more of a reaction to the climate of oppression that Christians were living in at the time it was written?
- [15:56]
Bart Ehrman
Oh, no, that's a great question. That's a really good question. Because when you read the Gospels, like you read the earliest Gospel, Mark. Mark is our first gospel, and it's a really, really interesting gospel. And the first line of the Gospel of Mark is the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And anybody reading that thinks, well, that's a little bit weird because, I mean, anybody who's not a Christian or, you know, just like a Jew who would read that thing, that's weird. Jesus was the guy who got crucified, right? He's the Messiah. And Mark's entire gospel is meant to show that the standard Jewish expectation that the Messiah will be a figure of violence, who will lead the military troops against the Romans and drive them out and set up a kingdom and rule the kingdom with a rod of iron, that this view of the Messiah, which. Which has roots in the Hebrew Bible and in the Christian Old Testament, that that view is wrong, that the Messiah in fact, was not supposed to be a violent military leader or a political ruler. He was supposed to be somebody who suffered and died for the sins of others. And Mark's narrative is set up to show that. And it's also set up to show that the disciples never get it. This is unlike Mark, especially unlike Luke and John, and somewhat unlike Matthew. But Mark's Gospel goes out of his way to show the disciples. They start getting that he's the Messiah. They kind of get that part, but they don't understand what that means. And they never do understand what it means. But. And Jesus keeps saying, I've got to go to Jerusalem and die. That's what I'm going to do. They keep saying, no, no, it ain't going to happen. So they don't understand what the Messiah is really supposed to be because they expect the standard Jewish messianic view. And which makes sense because the old view is the view, I mean, with the Messiah as depicted in Jewish tradition is supposed to be this powerful figure. And Mark is saying, no, Jesus is not like that. He's the Messiah who has to suffer and die. When you get to the Book of Revelation, Jesus is the one who died. He's the lamb who's slaughtered, but he's the victim of nonviolence. Then who's going to get revenge for what happened to him? So now he's turned into the violent figure away from the non violent figure. And so I guess the idea is, you know, well, he suffered and now, you know, now he's going to get his due. But that's completely contrary to what the Gospels are talking about. And so I think that it's, it just, I think you're right, it is in a way, it's a return to the old view. And the deal is, throughout the Christian tradition, when Jesus says something and people don't agree with it, they just make him say something else. Historically, like if Jesus says, give away all your possessions to the poor, people say, yeah, well, yeah, he doesn't mean it for me,
- [18:42]
Megan Lewis
like spiritually, spiritually.
- [18:44]
Bart Ehrman
Because what he really wants you to do is become materially wealthy. But it's just the opposite of what he said. And so if he says nonviolence and John says violence, I'm sorry, that's not, it's not the same thing.
- [18:55]
Megan Lewis
You've mentioned that people often will overlook the violence or say, oh, it's not violence, it's just not. It's something else. Has anyone ever tried to defend or explain the violence while acknowledging that violence does indeed exist in revelation and that Christ is a violence figure? But that's okay, because I think probably
- [19:17]
Bart Ehrman
the best way to try to do that, that people have tried, is to say that God is not only loving and merciful, but also just. And that people are given a choice of how to live. And, you know, there are always consequences for judging badly. If I decide that it's a good idea to jump in front of a train, I'm going to get wiped out. And, you know, people choose to do things. If I choose to take way too many drugs, I may od. I may just, you know, and so people choose. And so people have chosen to reject God. And this is. They knew better. And so this is what they get. And so it's not that. It's not that God's being mean, he's being just. And this is what justice requires. So that I think that's the best way to try and explain it. But I don't think justice, even if that were true, I don't think justice requires torture. In the book of Revelation, during one of these many plagues that's hitting the earth, you have these scorpions who come up out of. They look like scorpions. They have the ability to sting people so that they are tormented horribly for five months, but can't die. This is a plague against the Earth. And so, I mean, somebody who's being tortured for five and not even allowed to die to get out of the pain, you know, that's just torture. So, like, if God really wanted to judge people, why doesn't he just give them an instant coronary? Why does he need disaster after disaster after disaster? And why do they just, like, have everybody die or, you know, zap them with a cosmic ray or something? I mean, do something, something that it got, you know, I don't see that. That justice requires torture or having everybody thrown alive into a lake of burning fire, burning, burning sulfur. It's like, oh, just make them die.
- [21:01]
Megan Lewis
So, yeah, it's very extreme and seems a little. A little unnecessary if justice is the route that we're taking. But before we move on to play devil's advocate for just a moment, isn't this all symbolic Jesus? Well, John wasn't really advocating or expecting this level of torture and bloodshed. He's just using symbolism to get his point across.
- [21:23]
Bart Ehrman
I think it's true. He's using symbolism. He's absolutely using symbolism in this episode where Christ himself is upset with this woman who's teaching things that he disagrees with. This woman preacher. John's the one who's upset. John of Patmos is upset because this woman in one of the. In Thyatira, this woman that he calls Jezebel, has been teaching people it's okay to eat Meat that has been sacrificed to idols. So she's authorizing that he's against it. And as we discussed earlier, Christ says, Christ tells this prophetess that he will throw her on a bed, men will have sex with her, and that then he will kill her babies. And I don't think that that's literally what he has in mind. I don't think literally this woman is going to be either forced to have sex with people or to, you know, welcome people. And I don't think Christ is really going to start killing her babies. But the question is, why are you using this imagery? Why is that the image you have of Christ? Why the violent image? If you want to say that people have gone astray, you know that it's bad what they've done, why not send a really brilliant missionary down who has this very rhetorically effective message and convinces Jezebel, no, that's not the right way to go. Just, oh, God, I think you're right. And then she changes her mind and she teaches something else. Then, well, why not send down missionaries to the earth instead of torturing everybody for five months? Why not just have, you know, send apostles out who have a convincing message and everybody realizes they're speaking the truth, and then everybody agrees, and then you bring in the kingdom of God. Why that? Why do you need to torture and kill everybody? The imagery speaks a lot about how this person is imagining Christ and how he's imagining God. And it's very, very disturbing imagery. And I don't think we could just write it off, say, well, it's just an image. Yeah, but why are you using that image? Use some other image. You know, because the problem is that imagery stirs people up. It stirs readers up. And people then imagine God as a violent God. And to pursue God's ways, you have to seek violence in order to pursue God's ways. And that is how Revelation has been read over the centuries. People say, well, I don't read it like that. Yeah, well, you probably don't read it. But if you did read it, those who do read it, you're like, wow, you either say, that's a lot of violence. That's a little bit, or you say, oh, yeah, go God. You know, kind of the muscular Christianity. Go out there, you know, with your submachine gun and wipe out the enemy. Yeah, I don't think it's good symbolism.
- [23:50]
Megan Lewis
Well, thank you very much for all of that. We're going to take a brief break, and then we will be back with Bart's weekly update. And Bart's favorite a round of Outsmart Bart.
- [24:02]
Bart Ehrman
If you're enjoying the Misquoting Jesus podcast, you'd probably like my online courses as well. I've produced a number so far with multi lecture courses on the New Testament Gospels and the books of the Pentateuch, standalone lectures on the Christmas story and the earliest Christian views of Jesus, and a six hour debate on whether Jesus was actually raised from the dead. If you're interested, check them out@bartherman.com you'll receive a discount on your purchase simply by entering the code mjpodcast. Are you interested in learning about important academic topics but don't want to go back to school? You need to check out Wondrium, the service that streams university level courses taught by top scholars who are also skilled communicators educators. I've done nine courses for them and can tell you for high level adult learning, there's really no other game in town. For a free trial, go to barturman.com wondrium if you decide to subscribe to Wondrium, this podcast will receive a referral fee, but that'll have no effect on the cost of your subscription and you'll be supporting our show.
- [25:23]
Megan Lewis
Welcome back everybody. Now we have Bart's Weekly Update.
- [25:28]
Bart Ehrman
This is Bart's Weekly Update where we get to catch up on all the latest about Dr. Ehrman's book releases, speaking
- [25:36]
Podcast Announcer
engagements, ehrmanblog.org happenings, and online course launches.
- [25:42]
Megan Lewis
Bart, what do you have for us this week?
- [25:45]
Bart Ehrman
When an author has a book coming out for especially a book for a general audience, a broad audience, it gets to be an exciting time near when the book comes out because you start learning about what kind of interviews you're going to have, radio or TV interviews, and what kind of, you know, book events you'll be having. And you know, my book's going to be coming out in a few weeks and, and so we're at that point now where we're starting to get people say, okay, yeah, we'd like you on our show, that kind of thing. So that's all, that's all great. The downside is you still have a day job and you're supposed to be doing other things too. It's like, yeah, okay, that's fine. Ye sure, I can do that.
- [26:23]
Megan Lewis
I'll fix you in somehow.
- [26:25]
Bart Ehrman
Well, you fit it in because it's worth it and it's so much fun to it's actually, yeah, it's kind of fun to do. A lot of these things are very, very much fun and you're like, it's a good moment for a book. It's a much better moment for a book than when you're having to research
- [26:37]
Megan Lewis
and write the thing that I believe. When is the book coming out? Do we have a date?
- [26:42]
Bart Ehrman
It's on March 21st.
- [26:44]
Megan Lewis
Perfect. So about one month pre orders available.
- [26:47]
Bart Ehrman
You can go almost anyways and put in your preorder. Why not?
- [26:52]
Megan Lewis
Every little helps.
- [26:53]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah, right.
- [26:53]
Megan Lewis
Okay, well, thank you for that. We are going to now move on to Outsmart Bart, which I think you will do well on because you're Bart Ehrman. Of course you're going to do it.
- [27:01]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah. Don't care about it. Doctor Ehrman has written six New York
- [27:09]
Podcast Announcer
Times best selling books and holds a Ph.D. from Princeton.
- [27:14]
Bart Ehrman
It's not often you'll see him made a fool, but it doesn't hurt to try. It's time for Outsmart Bart.
- [27:25]
Megan Lewis
So thank you to everyone who has been submitting questions both for the Q and A and for our Outsmart Bart segments. They're an awful lot of fun and very interesting to read through. And our questions this week are coming from Brandon. So, Brandon, thank you very much. Bart, are you ready?
- [27:40]
Bart Ehrman
No.
- [27:43]
Megan Lewis
You're supposed to say yes.
- [27:45]
Bart Ehrman
Okay. Yes.
- [27:47]
Megan Lewis
First question. Which gospel has a naked man running through it?
- [27:51]
Bart Ehrman
Mark 14.
- [27:53]
Megan Lewis
Perfect. See, what were you worried about? Perfect.
- [27:55]
Bart Ehrman
Well, the issue is, I'll tell you, he's not the first streaker in the Bible. He's the second streaker in the Bible because you have that passage in. Is it Ezekiel or Isaiah? No, I think it's Isaiah who sold the streak. But the issue with this streaker in Mark 14 is who is it? Jesus is arrested and there's a man there wearing nothing but a linen cloth and he flees. And some, and they're trying to arrest him, they grab him, they grab the cloth and he runs away naked. And so it's a very interesting history of interpretation of this passage because there have been numerous interpretations over the years. For a long time, the answer was John, the son of Zebedee or like the author of the Gospel of John. And they. So they have things, people had various ideas about that. But the one that people today, the general populace likes today is that it's Mark, the author of the Gospel of Mark. And like he has this little story because who else would know that happened? It must have been him, you know, and plus it makes it interesting, he doesn't name him. There are basically about 498 interpretations of this passage. I think for a lot of historical scholars that one's rather down low on the list, but it's the one everybody likes.
- [29:00]
Megan Lewis
Oh, well, thank you. So, second question. Jesus said, whoever has come to understand the world has found only a blank. And whoever has found another blank is superior to the world.
- [29:12]
Bart Ehrman
Ha. This ain't in the New Testament. This is in the Gospel of Thomas. And it's one of my favorite sayings of the Gospel of Thomas. Whoever has found the world has found a corpse. And whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world. Or it depends how you translate it. But I love this saying because it's saying that, you know, we value so many things in this world, and we think this world is what provides meaning for us. It's what makes our life meaning meaningful. In fact, the world is not a place that gives life. The world is a corpse. The things we value in this life are worthless. What we should be seeking are things above, not the things here in this world. And anyone who realizes that this world is a corpse is superior to the world has overcome the world. I think it's a great saying. I wish Jesus had said it. I don't think he did, but I think I wish he did because I think it's a lovely, lovely saying.
- [30:06]
Megan Lewis
Well, you are, of course, exactly right. And thank you for explaining it because I read it and was a little bit confused as to exactly what was going on.
- [30:13]
Bart Ehrman
Oh, you think that one's confusing? Read some of the. Read the rest of the Gospel. Thomas. Oh my God. What does that mean?
- [30:20]
Megan Lewis
Okay, third and final question. In a section about circumcision, Paul begins by pointing out his large. What.
- [30:28]
Bart Ehrman
What say is this? Are we editing this? Ask that question.
- [30:36]
Megan Lewis
In a section about circumc. Circumcision, Paul begins by pointing out his large. What?
- [30:44]
Bart Ehrman
Wow, you know, this is one I really should know because this would be great to use. Hold on a second. Oh, his large writing.
- [30:54]
Megan Lewis
Yes.
- [30:54]
Bart Ehrman
That's not in the section on circumcision. That's In Galatians, chapter 6, the section.
- [31:02]
Megan Lewis
Clearly, I need to be fact checking these before I ask you.
- [31:04]
Bart Ehrman
It's in the book about circumcision. See the most interesting. Pat. The other. The other interesting bit of that is in Galatians where Paul. It's not far off from this, but it's earlier Paul says that. So the deal is that the people that Paul converted in the region of Galatia, they were pagans, and he converted them by saying, look, you don't have to become Jewish. And so in fact don't become Jewish because God saves everyone. Jew and gentile, apart from the Jewish law. And so don't get circumcised. Don't start keeping kosher, don't start observing the Sabbath, because that would show that you've got to be a Jew to be right with God. And you don't, you know, it's for Jews and Gentiles. But then what's happened is missionaries have come in to the community who think, yes, well, of course we got to become Jewish. If you're a follower of the Jewish Messiah, he fulfilled the Jewish law. He was sent from the Jewish God. He's the Jewish Messiah. If you want to follow him, you got to be Jewish, which means get circumcised. So Paul at one point, does use sarcasm that doesn't get through in most translations where Paul says that he wishes. He's telling these Galatians, these Gentile Galatians, that he wishes that those who would. Who want to have you circumcised will cut themselves off, is what he says. Sometimes it does get translated as castrated. It may mean something even more than that. But in any case, he hopes that they have the operation for circumcision. The knife slips. So Paul's not a happy camper in the book of Galatians, but at the end, he does say, say. He says, see, with what great letters I'm writing you. And so that's. That's the big thing he's got. And there are debates about why he's saying that. I mean, he's obviously saying it so when they get the letter, they'll see that he signed off, and so they know it's from him. But why does he write in big letters is because he doesn't know how to write very well? Is it because he's going blind? People have explanations for it.
- [32:55]
Megan Lewis
Interesting. Thank you. Well, no one else martyred you this week, so you did it despite your trepidation. So congratulations. Brandon, thank you again for your question. I'm sorry that unfortunately, Bart just managed to get them all.
- [33:09]
Bart Ehrman
Me, too. I'm not sorry. But, yeah, the last one was interesting
- [33:14]
Megan Lewis
bit touch and go there. So, Bart, before we finish for the week, would you mind summarizing what we talked about?
- [33:21]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah. So we've been talking about the Book of Revelation, and, you know, one of the big issues in scholarship and among readers is whether Christ himself is portrayed as a violent figure in the Book of Revelation. And I think the answer is clearly yes, he is a violent figure. In my book that's coming out, I spent a good bit of time trying to talk about this and to show that Christ himself is engaged in slaughter in the book, and he authorizes slaughter in the book. And the book is explicitly said to be about the wrath of the Lamb. It's not about the love and mercy and forgiveness of the Lamb. It's about his wrath. And it's taken out in very bloody and violent ways. And so then the question that we broached at the end is if that is really how the author of Revelation is portraying Jesus, is this consistent with the portrayal of Jesus that we see in other parts of the New Testament? And my answer to that is certainly isn't the the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels. And I don't think it's accurate with respect to the historical Jesus either, which is another question.
- [34:25]
Megan Lewis
Well, thank you very much for your time and your expertise. As ever, it's been a joy to talk with you. Audience thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast and make sure you don't miss any future episodes. Remember also that you can use the code mjpodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.barterman.com. misquoting Jesus will be back next week, but what will we be talking about?
- [34:51]
Bart Ehrman
So in the next episode, we're going to the heart of Revelation and its portrayal of God. People frequently talk about the God of the New Testament being different from the God of the Old Testament, for example. So we'll talk about, for example, whether Revelation confirms that or not.
- [35:06]
Megan Lewis
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Audience thank you again and goodbye. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Barterman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.