Paul and Jesus at Odds

Summary

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
Episode: Paul and Jesus at Odds
Date: June 25, 2024
Hosts: Dr. Bart Ehrman & Megan Lewis

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Overview

This episode explores the relationship (and tensions) between the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul, the most prolific writer in the New Testament. Dr. Bart Ehrman and host Megan Lewis delve into the critical question: Did Paul change Jesus’ original message about salvation? They compare what we can reconstruct of Jesus’ own teachings with the central ideas in Paul’s letters and discuss why most Christians today assume their messages are fundamentally the same—when, in fact, critical scholarship often reveals notable differences. Throughout, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the evolution of early Christian thought regarding salvation, atonement, adherence to Jewish law, and the implications for both ancient and modern Christian theology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Paul Matters

[07:03] Bart Ehrman:

• Paul’s influence on Christian theology is immense: 13 of 27 New Testament books claim to be by him (though only 7 are considered authentic by most scholars).
• Beyond his own letters, Paul also shapes or is responded to in many other New Testament texts.
• While some call Paul a co-founder of Christianity, Ehrman argues that’s too strong—but he is arguably Christianity’s most important figure after Jesus.
• The old scholarly contrast: Christianity as the “religion about Jesus” (centered on Paul’s theology) vs. the “religion of Jesus” (Jesus’ own teachings).

The Core of Jesus' Message

[09:36] Bart Ehrman:

• Critical scholarship tries to sort Jesus’ actual teachings from later attributions.
• Ehrman summarizes Jesus’ likely focus: “God’s kingdom was soon to appear on earth. People needed to repent and turn back to God because the day of judgment was coming soon… God would reward those who sided with him… with an eternal kingdom here on earth…”
• The message: Repent, return to God, receive forgiveness, and prepare for the imminent Kingdom.
  Quote:

“Repent because the kingdom of God is near.” (Bart Ehrman, [11:16])

The Core of Paul’s Message

[12:02] Bart Ehrman:

• Paul’s theology pivots on atonement (“Jesus’ death brought about an atonement for sin”).
• Key idea: No one can be justified (“made right with God”) by following the law alone.
• Salvation comes not through obedience and repentance alone, but through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus—he “died in the place of others.”
• Paul did not develop the substitutionary atonement theology from scratch; it predated him within early Christianity, but he systematized and popularized it. Quote:

“Paul did not think that God forgave people. He thought that God accepted the atonement of Jesus.” (Bart Ehrman, [12:56])

Contrasting the Path to Salvation

If Asked “How Do I Inherit Eternal Life?”

• Jesus answers: “Keep the commandments.” (referencing Mark, Matthew, Luke; [15:50])
  • He refers to ethical living, obedience, acts of charity, but not to ritual sacrifice.
  • If you want “treasures in heaven,” go further—sell what you have and give to the poor.
• Paul answers: “Believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus… be baptized and you’ll be saved.” ([18:26])
  • For Paul, the law is incapable of saving; faith in Christ is required. Quote:

“It’s not just a different answer, it is a contrary answer. This is the problem that scholars have talking about Paul and Jesus.” (Bart Ehrman, [18:41])

Why Do Most Christians See Unity Instead of Difference?

[19:54] Bart Ehrman:

• Most assume the Bible speaks with one voice; it’s “beyond people’s conception that [Jesus and Paul] could be saying something else.”
• Differences are obscured because Gospel writers (after Paul) interpret and present Jesus’ message through a Pauline lens.
• Even critical readers sometimes reconcile the difference—suggesting that Jesus, before his death, emphasized commandments, while Paul, writing afterward, naturally focused on the meaning of the crucifixion.
• Logical challenge: If God can just forgive as Jesus taught, why require crucifixion/atonement as Paul taught?

What Did Paul Know (or Care) About Jesus’ Teachings?

[23:09] Bart Ehrman:

• Paul rarely quotes Jesus’ teachings; in all his letters, he only explicitly cites three sayings (all in 1 Corinthians) and none are about repentance, forgiveness, or keeping the law.
• Paul’s focus isn’t on “what Jesus taught” but on the meaning of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Areas of Agreement and Difference

[24:50] Bart Ehrman:
Similarities:

• Both were Jewish, Torah-literate, apocalyptic thinkers, confident in an imminent “end” or intervention of God.
• Both believed a final judgment would bring about God’s kingdom. Differences:
• Jesus believed the kingdom would be brought by a “Son of Man” (not himself), Paul promotes Jesus himself as the returning figure.
• Paul doesn’t use “Son of Man” (a Jewish technical term unfamiliar to his Gentile converts).
• Most importantly, their means of salvation are fundamentally distinct: Jesus—repentance and ethical life; Paul—faith in Christ’s atoning death.

Contradictions?

[26:38] Bart Ehrman:

• No direct contradiction in ethical commands (love your neighbor, care for others).
• The main contradiction is soteriological: how one achieves salvation. Quote:

“I don't know of any actual ethical instructions that Paul gives that contradict Jesus’ instructions... I would say their teachings about salvation though, are at odds.” (Bart Ehrman, [28:00])

Bart’s Personal Reflection: Whose Message Is Preferable?

[28:33] Bart Ehrman:

• Ehrman strongly prefers Jesus’ “message of forgiveness” to Paul’s “atonement through blood.”
• Finds the atonement doctrine “distasteful”—“a religion of love and care for others and forgiveness, not a religion of blood vengeance.” Quote:

“For me, the idea that God is a loving father who will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness… That's a much more palatable understanding… than a doctrine of atonement.” (Bart Ehrman, [29:16])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Christianity is the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus.” (Bart Ehrman, [07:15])
• “Paul does not talk about forgiveness… the idea of ‘repent and you will be forgiven’ is not in Paul.” (Bart Ehrman, [12:21])
• “People tend to think of the Bible as being a solitary thing… one author… what's said in one place is the same as some other place. They don't have this kind of critical stance.” (Bart Ehrman, [20:13])
• “Paul hardly says anything about what Jesus taught… He doesn’t ever quote Jesus for the things that look like were the central elements of Jesus’ teachings.” (Bart Ehrman, [24:18])
• “Their teachings about salvation though, are at odds.” (Bart Ehrman, [28:00])
• “A much better way to understand religion… is a religion of love and care for others and forgiveness, not a religion of blood vengeance.” (Bart Ehrman, [29:24])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Topic Framing: [00:31]–[06:35]
• Why Paul Is So Influential: [07:03]–[09:27]
• Jesus’ Authentic Teachings: [09:36]–[11:54]
• Paul’s Teaching on Atonement: [12:02]–[14:28]
• How to Achieve Salvation—Jesus vs. Paul: [15:39]–[19:42]
• Reconciling the Messages, or Not: [19:54]–[23:05]
• Did Paul Know/Care About Jesus’ Message?: [23:09]–[24:44]
• Similarities & Contrasts: [24:50]–[26:32]
• Ethics—Contradictions or Not?: [26:38]–[28:21]
• Bart Picks a Side: [28:33]–[30:24]
• Summary and Conclusions: [38:29]–[39:08]

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Tone and Style Highlights

• Engaging, accessible, and direct—Ehrman’s analogies (child forgiveness, “five-star hotel in heaven”) clarify complex theological ideas.
• Candid personal opinions (e.g., distaste for atonement doctrine) and a touch of humor (“take cover… it’s Bart’s Soapbox”) foster listener connection.
• Rigorous but non-hostile critical perspective: Ehrman continually urges listeners to examine assumptions about the unity of the New Testament.

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Summary

This episode effectively illuminates the historical—and ongoing—theological divide between Jesus’ teachings and those of Paul. While both are apocalyptic Jewish teachers confident in God’s impending intervention, their answers to the central question, “How are we saved?” differ sharply. Jesus, in Ehrman’s reading, emphasizes repentance and obedience for direct forgiveness from a loving God; Paul centers salvation on faith in the atoning death and resurrection of Christ, largely independent of the Jewish law. Most Christians today, shaped by centuries of theological harmonization, haven’t fully confronted these differences—but Ehrman and Lewis make a compelling case that the conversation lies at the heart of understanding Christianity’s evolution.

Transcript

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[Megan Lewis]

Jesus and the AAPostle Paul are two of the most important figures in Christianity. One is the Son of God and Savior of the world. The other is a founding figure of the church and a man whose teachings and writings continue to inform the theology of modern Christianity. Surely Paul's writings teach Jesus message, don't they? Today we're exploring the differences between the teachings of Jesus and Paul and why many Christians will tell you that actually they teach the same thing. Stay tuned for all of that and much more.

[Podcast Host Megan Lewis]

Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman, the only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host Megan Lewis. Lets begin.

[Megan Lewis]

Ask most Christians and they'll likely tell you that Jesus and Paul teach the same things about salvation and how to attain it. Ask a critical scholar of the New Testament and they'll probably tell you something else. How and why did Paul change Jesus message? To answer those questions we have as always Bart Ehrman. But before we get to that, Bart, hello. How are you today?

[Bart Ehrman]

Doing pretty well today. We've had kind of rough weather here for a while and the sun is out today. So when this is done I'm going to take my dog for a long walk. She's a golden doodle doodles are Poodles are water retrieving dogs and this is a dog who doesn't like water. Not just rain but like she won't swim. And so anyways that's a sunny day. I'll take her out. So how are you doing? Do you have pets? You don't have pets? You have children?

[Megan Lewis]

Yeah, I do, I have children. We have a couple of cats and multiple fish and I grew up with Labradors who are absolutely water animals and anytime we took we lived in a very rural area with a lot of like ponds and lakes and fields that we could go and romp through. So anytime we took the dogs out, someone would come home soaking wet.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah.

[Megan Lewis]

And then you just have wet dog smell for the rest of the day.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, that's it. And you know, it's not easy to dry off dogs and it's like, it takes a while and they do. Yeah. It does create a, an olfactory sensation.

[Megan Lewis]

It really does. It's very on the pungent side.

[Bart Ehrman]

Right.

[Megan Lewis]

So I was wondering, you and I both go back and forth to the UK and between the UK and the US quite regularly and I am a very food oriented person and there are certain foods that when I'm in the UK I will either make sure that I eat or make sure that I buy to bring home to the us. So I was wondering if there's anything that, that you either take from the US to the UK to sustain yourself during your summer trips or, or bring from the UK back to the US again.

[Bart Ehrman]

I almost never take anything over. It's a good question. I almost never take anything over. Part of the reason was because the thing that I really didn't like about England when I first started going there, about whatever that would be 30 years ago, is you couldn't get good coffee. It was like instant coffee. You'd go to a place to get coffee, like you'd buy, you'd be buying coffee and they'd put instant coffee in a cup and add water. And I this, what is this? And so, but finally, you know, they cordoned on and now it's, it's an amazing place for, for coffee and for food. You know, people have always kind of badmouth the Brits for like boiling their vegetables to death and like not knowing how to cook. And man, has that ever changed. It is a foodie place and so I don't, I don't take anything over and there are things there that I prefer to hear is, you know, for a long time it was hard to get good chocolate here. You know, you could, but like not in stores so much but now it's fantastic here. But in England always had much better chocol and even things like, you know, I don't eat candy much but like a Kit Kat or a Malteser. Oh my God, those are amazing. And so like. Oh. So in terms of what I bring back though, I do bring something back, but it isn't like a snack. The airports, international airports in England have very fine whiskey select selections. So much better than I can get here in North Carolina. So I'm always bringing back one. A bottle of some kind of really, really nice single Malt Scotch. I don't drink as much now as I, as I, as I used to. I was never, you know, I was never a complete alcoholic or anything, but I. But I've got back years, I'm getting older, but I still, I really like having a single malt whiskey sometimes at night. And the variety quality is so good over there that, yeah, that's what I bring back.

[Megan Lewis]

Excellent. Not the answer I was expecting, but a fantastic response.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. Well, do you bring things back really from England?

[Megan Lewis]

I do, actually. And on the miscooking vegetables note, my grandmother boiled vegetables until she was certain they were dead.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah.

[Megan Lewis]

Made fantastic roast potatoes, but the vegetables were always very, very soft. Oh, God, no. When I'm coming back, I have a huge sweet tooth and I miss what I would call biscuits. Not American biscuits, they're cookies. But for people who haven't had British biscuits, they're harder than your average American cookie. So there are certain biscuits that I'll bring home. And I have a hu. Huge weakness for green apple flavored candy, which is quite tricky. Yeah, it's quite tricky to find here and there are these pencils, long sticks of green apple candy. So I bring those home with me.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, well, you know, apple varieties are different too. I mean, what are they? Bramley. What are the kinds you cook apple pie with? Bramley. Really, really tart ones. They're tarter than Granny Smith's here and they're fantastic for pies. Yeah. So it's actually fun going back and forth because the cuisine does differ. And it used to be in London you couldn't get any good food except for Indian. If you went out to E Now, man, it is a foodie place.

[Megan Lewis]

No, it's good. My oldest daughter is having a next week. I think she has to cook some kind of British food for her classmates. And I'm like, well, I can do it. We can do a curry or we can do toad in the hole or her favorite's curry. So I think we might end up making a curry, which doesn't strike people as a particularly British food, but curry is everywhere.

[Bart Ehrman]

Colonial age, it was,

[Megan Lewis]

okay, we should get off food because otherwise people will start telling us off for talking. Not enough about the New Testament and early Christianity, but we're talking today, as I said, about the teachings of the apostle Paul and how they compare to Jesus and kind of why they differ. And this is a subject we've touched on before, but I think we're going to be coming at it from a slightly different angle than we have done so it's going to be more information, new information to start out with though. Why do you think it's important to consider the teachings of Paul?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, you know, there are a lot of people today still who would say that Paul's the founder of Christianity. I don't agree with that at all. But I see why they say it because it kind of goes back to this old adage that you found in scholarship in the early 20th century, which was that Christianity is the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus. In theological circles, especially in Germany and elsewhere in Europe in the early 20th century, people started realizing that when you reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus, he's not preaching what the apostles preached. And the apostle we know best in terms of his preaching is Paul. And that Paul's message was different from Jesus message. And so that was a thing. And in the early 20th century there were kind of these debates. Are you interested in the Jesus of history or the Christ of faith? And the idea is that those are very different things and that Paul preaches the Christ of faith and the historical Jesus is a different thing.

[Megan Lewis]

So if you don't see Paul as being a founder of Christianity, what role did his writings play in the formation of the religion and what role do they continue to play in, in modern Christianity?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, Paul's writings are huge. I mean, there are 27 books in the New Testament, 13 of them, nearly half of them claim to be written by Paul. The critical judgment generally is that six of those 13 actually were not written by Paul, but by people claiming to be Paul, which is something we could do episodes on later. But at 13 claimed to be written by Paul. One other book was accepted into the New Testament, the Book of Hebrews, because church fathers came to think it was written by Paul, even though it wasn't. One other book, the Book of Acts, is written about Paul mainly he's the main character in Acts. And other books are responding to Paul, the Book of James, probably the Gospel of Matthew. And so like well over half, probably two thirds of the New Testament in one way or another is related to Paul. And so his writings have shaped the theology of Christianity in ways that nothing else has. So I would say that sometimes people talk about Paul as a co founder of Christianity. I think that's a little bit too extreme too. But I think he's certainly the most important figure of Christianity after Jesus ever. And nobody is ever going to top Paul when it comes to that. And so he's absolutely fundamental for understanding how Christianity developed after Jesus Death.

[Megan Lewis]

So switching gears slightly to look at Jesus, what would you say are the most important messages in his teachings that are preserved in the Gospels?

[Bart Ehrman]

You know, part of the task of historical scholarship is to separate out what Jesus actually said from what he's reported to have said. That may sound kind of artificial to people, or it may sound like, you know, you're just making stuff up. But there are really good reasons for thinking that people were putting sayings of Jesus on his lips, things that he didn't really say. And in fact, nobody doubts that because we have these other gospels from outside the New Testament that nobody thinks Jesus said these things that are in these gospels. And so people were saying things and saying that Jesus said them. And it looks like that's happening in the New Testament as well, because there's all sorts of things that there are very solid reasons for thinking he didn't say. And so the task is to figure out what did he say? And it's not an easy task. Many people have spent their careers trying to figure it out, decades of their lives having learned Greek and Aramaic and other languages to try and figure it out. But my View in the 22nd nutshell, his. I think his main teaching was that God's kingdom was soon to appear on earth. People needed to turn their lives around. They needed to repent and turn back to God because the day of judgment was coming soon. And when the day of judgment came, God would destroy all of his enemies and everybody who was opposed to him, and he would reward those who sided with him and who worked to do his will by giving them an eternal kingdom here on earth. A utopian place that would be kind of like paradise was originally for Adam and Eve. It's what God had intended for people and what he still intends for people. A paradise kind of existence for those who obey him. And so Jesus knew full well that most people did not obey God. And so he was urging people to repent so that God would forgive them for the sins they committed and allow them to enter into the kingdom. I think that's the thrust of his message. Repent because the kingdom of God is near. As it turns out, that is exactly what he says in his first recorded words. Mark 1:15 marks our earliest gospel. These are the first things that Jesus says, and he says exactly that. The kingdom's almost here. You need to repent and prepare for it.

[Megan Lewis]

How does that compare to Paul's main messages and main teachings that come through in the writings that we know are from him?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, I think it's pretty Clear when you study the sayings of Jesus and see what he really taught, that his main emphasis was on the need to return to God so that he will forgive you. And so, for example, even in the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Well, how do you forgive a debtor? So if somebody owes you money and you forgive them the loan, they don't have to pay the loan. You just forgive the loan. And it doesn't mean that somebody else pays for them. It doesn't mean that you get your money back somehow or other, or you restructure the loan, or you delay the loan, you forgive the loan. And Jesus thinks of God as somebody who forgives our moral debt to him. So it was all about forgiveness. Paul does not talk about forgiveness. People don't notice this, but the idea of repent and you will be forgiven is not in Paul. Paul's view is that Jesus death brought about an atonement for sin, that people had sinned and they incurred a penalty. The penalty is death, for the wages of sin is death, says Paul. And the penalty has to be paid because God is just. But Jesus paid the penalty for others. Jesus died in the place of others. His death is a substitute for the death of others. And so it's a substitutionary atonement, a sacrificial act that makes somebody right with God. Paul did not think that God forgave people. He thought that God accepted the atonement of Jesus. It's a different conception of how salvation comes about. I want to say that I don't think Paul invented this idea. In other words, if he had invented the idea, I'd be more inclined to say that he's the co founder of Christianity. But he didn't invent the idea. He was persecuting Christians before he converted. Precisely for saying this. They were already saying that Jesus death is an atonement for sins. He finally came to realize that that was true for him and converted and became the biggest proclaimer of that that we know of and who developed the theology of it more than anyone we know of. But he didn't invent the idea. This is why the early 20th century scholars were saying things like the religion of Jesus is forgiveness and the religion about Jesus atonement.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you. We're going to take a very quick break and then we'll be right back to talk about exactly how one gets to be saved. Depending on who you are asking that

[Podcast Host Megan Lewis]

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[Megan Lewis]

So if we're looking at salvation and atonement and all those kinds of ideas, if someone had asked Jesus what they had to do in order to be saved, what would his answer have been?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh, yeah, you know, it's a good question because as it turns out, we have an episode that is exactly that in the Gospels, you know, it's very hard, just as with the sayings of Jesus, it's very hard to know whether the episodes of things that he did are historical or not. And so I don't know if the exact episode happened, but how Jesus reacts certainly is very, very close to what we know about Jesus otherwise. So I think something like this is absolutely what he thought. There's a man who comes up to Jesus. This is in the Matthew, Mark and Lu. This man comes up to Jesus and he says to Jesus, what do I have to do to have eternal life? And Jesus has an immediate response. He says, keep the commandments. And in one of the gospels, he lists them. Don't commit murder, don't commit adultery, don't bear false witness. Honor your father and mother. You know, he goes through this list of commandments in another gospel, the man says, well, which ones? And then Jesus lists them. But he's listing ten commandments. He's telling them, obey what God tells you to do in the scriptures. And so that's how you have eternal life. The man's feeling a little guilty about it apparently or something. He says, well, you know, I've done all those things. And then Jesus says to him, if you want treasures in heaven, sell everything you have and give to the poor. And then you can come follow me. It seems like Jesus is saying that, you know, yes, you can have eternal life by keeping God's commandments. But if you really want the, you know, the five star hotel, you got to sell everything. You know, the whole idea is that God, for Jesus, like most Jews at the time, God wants you to obey him and obedience is what God wants. And that God will forgive people if they return in repentance. You know, in some ways that doesn't sound very radical, but in another way it is kind of radical in ancient Judaism because Jesus doesn't say anything about like having to perform sacrifices. He doesn't say about the temple cult. And there are other reasons for thinking that Jesus was not a big fan of what was happening at the temple or the Jewish leaders who were emphasizing sacrificial system. And so in that way, it was a radical teaching. But it's also radical because it's just, you know, you know, if your child does something wrong, you forgive them. You know, you might punish them, but you don't need to punish them. And God isn't somebody who wants to punish you, he wants to forgive you. He's that kind of parent who just willing to forgive you. And so that was Jesus teaching.

[Megan Lewis]

If the same question was asked of Paul, would he have given the same answer or would he have said something different?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh my God, would he say something different? This is this exercise I used to give my students. Like about half of them just didn't get it. So my exercise was this. I would say, okay, now the same person who came up to Jesus, you know, so he walks away. He can't do it. He can't sell everything. He's rich, he's got a lot of money. There's no way he's going to sell everything. So he walks away and he's kind of upset. So I say, okay, now to my students, I say, so suppose 20 years later Jesus has died and this person comes up to Paul, same guy, and he says, what must I do to have eternal life? Does Paul say, keep the Commandments? No. Paul's whole point is that following the Jewish law is not going to make you right with God. You can't be right with God by following the law. Of course you should keep the commandments, but it's not going to give you salvation. Paul says, believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus died for your sins. Accept him and believe in the resurrection and be baptized and you'll be saved. Nothing about keeping commandments or selling all your goods. It's not just a different answer, it is a contrary answer. This is the problem that scholars have Talking about Paul and Jesus is because it looks like they, in fact, are preaching different messages.

[Megan Lewis]

If they are preaching different messages, which, based on your answers, it definitely seems that they are, why is it that people struggle to see these two things as different and distinct?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, people want Jesus and Paul, of course. I mean, people just naturally assume they're on the same page. These are the two most important figures in Christianity. They're both in the New Testament. They both are teaching about God. And so I think it's beyond people's conception that they could possibly be saying something else. They don't notice that Paul doesn't say things like, you know, repent and God will forgive you your sins. He says, believe in Christ. And he doesn't say, keep the commandments. He says, the commandments won't save you. I mean, you should keep them, but they're not going to save you. And so people just don't notice this because people tend to think of the Bible as being a solitary thing. There's this book, and it's between two covers and it's got one author. And so what's said in one place is the same as some other place. Even though they use different words, they're using different words, but it's basically, it's the same thing. They don't have this kind of critical stance that scholars develop starting in the Enlightenment, where you realize that different authors might be saying different things. Once you realize that, you realize, yeah, this is different.

[Megan Lewis]

So how do people try and take these different messages and reconcile them, make them the same?

[Bart Ehrman]

There are several ways to do it. Many readers of the New Testament, of course, would know that in the Gospels, Jesus says that he has to go to Jerusalem and be rejected and be crucified, and that he says things like, the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. And so they notice that, in fact, Jesus does talk about an atonement. And in the Gospels, that's right. At least in Matthew, Mark and John, Jesus does talk about giving his life for others. But the problem is that when scholars talk about the difference between Jesus and Paul, they're not talking about the differences between the Gospels and Paul. The Gospel writers who are Christians, who believe in the death resurrection of Jesus, who are writing 40, 50, 60 years later, of course understood that Jesus would have said the same thing that they believe. Critical scholars typically doubt that Jesus was talking about him giving himself as an atonement. But if you think that the Gospels are historically accurate in everything they say, then there's not a problem there. Other people who are a little bit more critical about it would say, look, yes, it's right. Jesus didn't talk about an atonement, Paul did. But Jesus is living before his death and Paul's living after his death. And so it's natural that they're not going to be saying the same thing, because the whole point is his death. And Jesus can't be preaching the salvation brought by his death because he hasn't died yet. And so during his life, he's telling people to keep the commandments. That's an interesting way to reconcile it. I had seminary professors who reconciled it that way. But it does create a problem. Because if Jesus was right that God would forgive you if you repented, then why did he have to die? God could just forgive you. And when you think about it logically, there's no reason. God couldn't just forgive you if he wanted to. So if Jesus was right, then there's no reason for him to have died. So Paul's theology is rooted in something that happened, but it's not the same theology.

[Megan Lewis]

Would Paul have viewed himself as changing Jesus message?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh, now that's a good one. Because one of our earlier episodes was kind of about that. Like, I guess we had this episode about what did Paul know about the teachings of Jesus? And that's a very interesting topic because Paul hardly says anything about what Jesus taught. You know, when he quotes the sayings of Jesus, he actually quotes only three sayings of Jesus where he actually says, this is something Jesus said. All three are in the book of First Corinthians. It's chapter seven, chapter nine, and chapter 11, as it turns out. So the three sayings are, one is that you should not get a divorce. It's chapter seven. The other is you should pay your preacher. That's chapter nine. Okay, so that's not really kind of getting to the heart of Jesus teachings, but it's two of the three things that he quotes. And then in chapter 11, he does quote the words at the Last Supper as he knows them where Jesus takes the Passover meal. And he says, this is my body that's given for you, and this is the cup of the new covenant in my blood. Those are atonement words. And so Paul is quoting, you know, writing 25 years after the event, he's saying what Jesus said at his last meal. There are very good reasons for thinking this is not something Paul would have known. Jesus actually said at the last meal, that this is the tradition in Christianity that this is what the last meal was all about that had developed after Jesus day. Paul doesn't say anything about Jesus teachings of forgiveness or repentance or to keep the commandments. He doesn't ever quote Jesus for the things that look like were the central elements of Jesus teachings.

[Megan Lewis]

Do you see any commonalities between what Paul teaches and what we think Jesus said?

[Bart Ehrman]

It's very interesting actually to list the similarities and the differences. You know, if there were just differences, then anytime you do a comparison, there have to be some similarities or there's no point in doing the comparison. Right. So you've got to have both similarities and differences. And the similarities are really quite striking as well. But they tend to be more kind of broader overview issues. So Paul and Jesus were both Jews living in the first century. They both were familiar with the Jewish Torah. They both were teachers. They both held apocalyptic views. This is a key point. Jesus thought that the end was coming soon. Paul thought the end was coming soon. Jesus thought God was going to be judging the world. Paul thought God was going to be judging the world. They both thought there's a kingdom that's coming. Jesus thought the kingdom would be brought by this figure that he called the Son of Man, which I think is not a reference to himself in his own teachings. It is a reference to himself in gospels and places. But I think when Jesus taught about the coming Son of Man, he wasn't teaching about himself coming on the clouds of heaven. He was teaching about this figure, the coming Son of Man. Paul thought that Jesus was the one who was coming. Weirdly, Paul doesn't call him the Son of Man, but the way he describes Jesus coming on the clouds is the description of the Son of Man. Paul doesn't call Jesus the Son of man because that's a Jewish term. That is kind of a technical Jewish term within Jewish apocalyptic circles. And Paul's writing just Gentiles have never heard of this kind of thing. So they have these similarities. They're Jewish men committed to Torah who believe that God is soon to intervene in a day of judgment. The difference is that Jesus thinks it's going to happen soon in his day. Paul thinks it's going to happen soon in his day. But Jesus is the one who's going to be coming.

[Megan Lewis]

Are any of their instructions to their followers contradictory or is it possible to follow them both?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh, now that's an interesting question. Are they any instructions that are contradictory?

[Megan Lewis]

They.

[Bart Ehrman]

That's a good question. I don't know of any actual ethical instructions that Paul gives that contradict Jesus instructions, They're usually talking about different things. That's why. So when Jesus is talking to rural Jews, mainly in Galilee and then some in Jerusalem, and he's instructing them what to do so they can enter into the coming kingdom, most of Paul's ethical teachings aren't really about that. Paul is writing 25, 30 years later, and he's dealing with situations in his churches that have arisen among Gentiles who have become followers of Jesus and problems have arisen. So problems, for example, in the city of Corinth, where there are divisions in the church and there are people engaged in spiritual one upmanship and there are problems of immorality there, men who are visiting prostitutes and thinking that's okay as a Christian and a man who's cohabiting with his stepmother and people who are like engaging in the speaking of tongues too often in their church. And so like there are these things that are coming up in Christianity that simply were not within Jesus purview at all. And those are what Paul is most interested in when he's dealing with ethics some decades later. And so I don't know that they actually contradict each other. And they, they say many of the similar things. They both say that love your neighbor is the main part of the Torah and that if you love your neighbor as yourself, you're fulfilling Torah. And so they both, there are things they have in common that way. I don't know of any contradictory ethical teachings. I would say their teachings about salvation though, are at odds.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you. Okay, so final question before we go to our next segment. If you had to pick a side in the great battle between Jesus and Paul, which one would you be going with?

[Bart Ehrman]

I'll tell you. Well, the big difference of course for me is this thing I was pointing out, the difference between forgiveness and atonement. I think the doctrine of the atonement that Paul inherited and then developed made a lot of sense given the fact that Jesus was thought to be a Messiah. He didn't do what the Messiah was supposed to do. Instead, he got arrested and put on trial and publicly executed. The followers of Jesus had to figure out why he got crucified because he was obviously the one favored of God because God raised him from the dead. And so they came up with this idea that his death must have been planned by God as an atonement for sins. And that's what Paul then accepted. And so it makes, that makes sense to me for what happened within Christianity. But given the difference between a doctrine of Atonement that somebody, a human, you need a human sacrifice for the sins of others or you cannot be reconciled with God unless somebody is tortured to death. I find that distasteful. And I don't like the doctrine of atonement at all in any of its various ways of being explained. There are lots of ways people have tried to explain it away, and I don't find any of them acceptable. For me, the idea that God is a loving father who will forgive you. If you ask for forgiveness, you generally are sorry for what you did. You meant to do it. You know, you intentionally did it, but you did it anyway. But you're now you regret doing it. You're sorry and you, you promised to change your ways and God forgives you. That's a much more palatable understanding, I think, of the divinity and I think that it's a much better way to understand religion. It's a religion of love and care for others and forgiveness, not a religion of blood vengeance. And so I think for me, I'm more a Jesus guy than a Paul guy.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you so much, Bart. We are going to take a very quick ad break and we'll be back with news of upcoming events.

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This is bart's weekly update where we get to catch up on all the latest about Dr. Ehrman's book releases, speaking engagements, ehrmanblog.org happenings and online course launches.

[Megan Lewis]

So we have a couple of reminders for people this week. First is the Parables of Jesus course that AJ Levine will be teaching on July 20 and 20. 20. 21st.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. This is one to look forward to. So, Amy, Jill is, she's a professor in Christian theological seminaries and she taught at Vanderbilt Divinity School training ministers, you know, as a non Christian Jew. But she is, she is very open to religious faith. She teaches in numbers of churches. She gets invited all around the country to churches, Christian churches. And she's wonderful. And she's also extremely knowledgeable and very engaging. This course on the parables is going to be very interesting because there are lots of issues connected with the parables. People are familiar with things like the parable of the Good Samaritan, the parable of the Prodigal Son. These parables are actually a lot more complicated than people would think. Just giving them a simple read. And once you start seeing some of the complications and seeing what they really are all about, it just opens up what these things are really saying in ways you wouldn't expect. And she's going to go into that. She'll be talking about Both of those parables and a number of the other ones that are really significant as well as, you know, did Jesus teach these and what really teach them or. So this will be a really important course. I think for anybody who's interested in the New Testament of the historical Jesus, this is a good course to take.

[Megan Lewis]

It sounds really fascinating. And if people are interested, there is more information and you can [e-mail] forward/parables. That's P A, R A B L E S and the other reminder. And I don't actually think we've spoken about this particular course before, the Paul and Jesus the Great Divide course. Maybe we did speak about it a while ago, I don't remember. But given what we've been talking about today, it seemed like a pertinent thing to be letting you all know about. So that's eight lectures that are 30 to 40 minutes each. What kinds of things do you discuss in that Bard?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, that was a lot of fun that course. You know, we just did this in this kind of short episode for our, you know, whatever that was, 30 or 40 minute talk. But I gave these eight lectures on this topic and really went into it because this is the biggest issue. I mean this for me, for early Christianity and maybe for most New Testament scholars, this is the issue about Paul and Jesus and what did Jesus really teach and what did Paul really teach and were they on the same page or not? What are their similarities, what are their differences, what you would do with all this. I had the leisure of having eight lectures to cover it with Q and A. And so this is of course people ought to. This is another one they ought to get. Of course you ought to get all the courses. This Paul and Jesus course is I think a fundamental course for understanding the New Testament and early Christianity.

[Megan Lewis]

And there's more information. And again, you can [e-mail] Paul and always the code mjpodcast will get you a discount on everything over on the website. So definitely take a look. We are going to go now to Bart's Soapbox. Always a joy.

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Take cover. Fundamentalist Christians and mythicists. It's time for Bart. Bart gets on His Soapbox. The segment where Bart exposes the belief systems and social constructs that frustrate him most.

[Megan Lewis]

Bart, what are you on your soapbox about today?

[Bart Ehrman]

Politics are really hot these days, of course, and it's heating up and you know, the country's becoming very divided and crazily divided. And as a, a biblical scholar, it's always interesting for me to hear how the Bible gets invoked in various debates. And my soapbox is about how people misuse the Bible just in order to score points and in order to kind of promote their own agenda. You know, I think sometimes that's perfectly appropriate because sometimes the Bible does say things that are relevant. But what really ticks me off is when people say that the Bible says something in order to support their view, which is not at all what the Bible says and sometimes just the opposite of what the Bible says. And it's like they haven't read the Bible. This is especially bad with people who call themselves Bible believing Christians. They don't seem to even know what's in the text. And it just, it drives me nuts. And so we had this episode a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so ago, where Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, she's opposed to this legislation that came out that dealt with kind of defining anti Semitism. And I'm not taking a stand on that, on the legislation here per se. Like all legislation, it's problematic. And I tried to see both sides of political issue. I really do try to see both sides. Unlike most people I know, I try to see both sides. So I'm not going to take a stand on that. But what really upset me, Marjorie Taylor Greene said that this legislation cannot pass because if this legislation passes then she will not be able to assert what the Bible itself says, that Herod in Herod handed Jesus over to the Jews to be killed. And she said I won't be able to say that because, you know, that's what the Bible says. And because of this legislation that makes it illegal to defines anti Semitism that would fall under that definition. So I can't say what the Bible itself says. When I heard that, I just started scratching my head saying what in the world? What Bible is she reading exactly? I mean, she's not reading any Bible. Somebody told her that's what the Bible says. And it doesn't say that. In fact, just the opposite. In the trial of Jesus. There are four accounts of the trial of Jesus in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In Matthew, Mark and John, Herod is not mentioned. This is not the Herod, by the way, who killed the babies in Bethlehem. This is his son, Herod Antipas, who was the King of Galilee when Jesus was ministering in Galilee. He's not mentioned in the trial scenes as somebody who handed him over to the Jews to be killed. In Matthew, Mark and John, he does show up in the Gospel of Luke, Luke Herod is involved in the trial seen in the Gospel of Luke, Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, does not think Jesus is guilty, but everybody's insisting that he kill him. And so he doesn't know what to do. So he turns him over to Herod, who happens to be in town for the Passover so that he'll condemn him to death. But Herod can't find anything wrong with him either. He finds him innocent and he sends him back to Pilate. Then Pilate orders him to be killed. The Roman governor orders him to be killed. Herod did not find him guilty and did not hand him over to the Jews, and the Jews did not kill him. So where does this come from? That Herod handed him over to the Jews to be killed? So the Jews killed Jesus. I'm sorry, that is anti Semitic, because it's not even what the text says. And I don't think there should be a law against not interpreting the Bible correctly. But I do think, if I had my way, people who would quote the Bible would at least know what it says and at least say what it says instead of saying just the opposite of what it says, so that you can win some kind of debate about legislation. Translation. How's that for a soapbox?

[Megan Lewis]

It's an excellent soapbox. I like it. I definitely think that the world would be a slightly different place if people who quoted the Bible read what it was they were quoting and understood what they were quoting.

[Bart Ehrman]

I mean, I'm not even asking for, you know, understanding things from a scholarly point of view. I'm just saying basically, just like, at least say what it says, you know, and then maybe it would help to actually learn something about it. There are experts in these things, you know. So apart from all that, just at least don't worry. Weaponize the Bible like this. I was telling you before, I think we need to have an episode on weaponizing the Bible, because it really is not a. It's not good. It's just not good.

[Megan Lewis]

I agree. And it is actually on the schedule, so everyone can stay tuned for that.

[Bart Ehrman]

All right now.

[Megan Lewis]

But before we finish for the week, would you just summarize what we spoke about?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. So in this. This episode, we were talking about the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul and seeing if they actually line up. It's an issue most people haven't thought about because you just assume they're both in the Bible. They're both. Both key to Christianity. They must be saying the same thing. But when you actually analyze the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul, you realize that they have a very different understanding of how a person acquires salvation, and so much so that many scholars have long thought that they conflict with each other. And so it's worth at least thinking about whether people are persuaded by that or not. It's worth thinking about because it really does seem like a stark difference.

[Megan Lewis]

Thank you, Bart, for sharing your time and your expertise with this audience. Thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show, and if you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Remember, you can use the code mjpodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartehrman.com and misquoting Jesus Will Be Back Next Week Bart, what are we talking about?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh, well, we're moving back in time to the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament. Isaiah is a very important book, and it was a very important book for the early Christ. And so in part, we're going to be talking about the use of the Book of Isaiah in the New Testament and in early Christianity.

[Megan Lewis]

We'll see you next week. Thank you all and goodbye.

[Podcast Host Megan Lewis]

This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel channel so you don't miss out From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis. Thank you for joining us.