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Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
The Disturbing Views of God and Suffering in the Book of Job
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- [00:00]
Bart Ehrman
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Megan Lewis
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Sarah
Picture this. You do everything you can to live a good and virtuous life. You do as God commands and have a beautiful home, prosperous business and loving family. Then you lose everything. No home, no business, no family. But you know that you've done nothing to deserve this punishment. What on earth has happened? Today we're talking about the Book of Job and why no one understands it.
- [00:58]
Megan Lewis
Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin.
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Sarah
The Book of Job is possibly one of the most debated texts in the Old Testament. And it can be a deeply unsettling read. If a person can live a pious life and still lose everything they hold dear, then what hope is there for the rest of us who are less than perfect? What is the Book of Job trying to teach us about suffering? And why does Barthes think that no one understands it correctly? We'll be getting into all of this and a lot more. But first, Bart, Good morning. How are you doing?
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Bart Ehrman
Good morning. Yep, doing well, thanks. You doing okay?
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Sarah
Yeah, no, very well, thank you. And given we're talking about a Hebrew Bible book, I wanted to ask. You're a New Testament scholar, obviously, that's why we're here. Have you ever taught Hebrew Bible?
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Bart Ehrman
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when I was in graduate school. You don't really have a major, but you have a primary field. My primary field, of course was New Testament and early Christianity, but my secondary field was Hebrew Bible. You know, I took Hebrew. My first. Actually my first year of my master's program, I took Hebrew and so I took Hebrew classes and I. I actually had PhD exams on the Hebrew Bible. When I went to start teaching at Rutgers University, I taught Hebrew Bible there. I've taught it for several years here at UNC as well. So it's not my primary field of expertise at all. I mean, my Hebrew Bible classes tended to be better than my New Testament classes because I didn't know enough to complicate things. If I gave a lecture on the Book of Isaiah, basically I had 50 minutes. Yeah, that's the main stuff that I know. I actually said, okay, I'm kidding about that. But it's, you know, it's not the kind of major expertise. But I mean, you know, you're married to a Hebrew Bible scholar. You actually, you know, you're working in a cognate field. Have you ever taught Hebrew Bible?
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Sarah
I haven't, actually. And Josh, bless him, he will. If he hears someone tell him or someone say or describe him as a Hebrew Bible scholar, he's always like, no, no, no, no. I'm an historiologist. So he has. His PhD is a seriology. We both minored in Hebrew Bible in a similar way to you. So we've both taken comprehensive exams in Hebrew. Josh actually has a lot of background in Hebrew. He did a theology master's degree. He's taught Hebrew for years and years. And since leaving, he's worked an awful lot on more of the Hebrew Bible side of things. We have a whole miniature library full of Hebrew Bible commentaries and all that kind of thing.
- [03:35]
Bart Ehrman
When he's written about it, too. Right? I mean, he's.
- [03:37]
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does a lot of public engagement on, like, counter apologetics, really treating the Hebrew Bible as a collection of books and not as the inspired, inerrant word of God, which, like you, is. Is how he used to think about it. So, yes, we have a lot of Hebrew Bible conversations.
- [03:57]
Bart Ehrman
Okay. Yeah. Well, we don't. Although Job would be a good one to talk about because Sarah writes about tragedy and then you talk about tragedy.
- [04:06]
Sarah
This is perfect. Absolutely perfect. So we do normally, as everyone will know, stick with the New Testament and early Christian writings. Why do you think it's important to discuss this particular book of the Old Testament?
- [04:20]
Bart Ehrman
When I was at Rutgers, one of the courses I was asked to teach was called the Problem of Suffering in the Biblical Traditions. And it was an interesting course because what I would do is show how different parts of the Bible, both Hebrew Bible and New Testament, deal with the problem of suffering. And the one reason I liked the course of Law is because I've always thought the issue of why it is that God's people suffer drives most of the authors of the Bible in one way or the other, and they have various explanations for it. When you read the New Testament, which is my main field of interest. You get a variety of answers to why it is people suffer. You get a greater variety in the Hebrew Bible. And the most famous instance of course is the Book of Job, which everybody knows about as a book about that. Although as I, as you indicate, I don't think a lot of people understand it.
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Sarah
So what then is the Book of Job about? For those who maybe haven't read it recently?
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Bart Ehrman
So Job is this proverbial figure because of this book. This is the only book of the Bible that deals with this situation. And the book is long, many 40 chapters long. It deals with, it's bracketed by a kind of a story about this man, Job. Job is a highly righteous man who does everything he can to please God. As you said, he's got enormous possessions, he's massively wealthy, one of the wealthiest human beings on the planet, and has thousands and thousands of sheep and cattle and camels and things and 10 children, seven sons, three daughters. And he's fully righteous. And when he, when his kids have like dinner together afterwards, he'll sacrifice animals to make sure in case they did something wrong so that this kids sins will be covered and just in case. But they're also, there's nothing wrong with them either. So the story is that God has his heavenly council around him up in heaven. These are called the sons of God. And they're angelic beings who are kind of like his advisory council that God has. And he's bragging on Job. He says, look at this Job. He says, man, he is righteous, one of the sons of God. When these angelic beings is called Hasatan in Hebrew, which means the accuser, it's the name that ends up being Satan. And so the Satan figure, so he's not, he's not like a devil with a pitchfork down in hell or anything like that. He's one of God's advisors up in heaven. But he plays devil's advocate. He says, well yeah, of course he told to God, God's saying, Job is so righteous. The Devil says, well yeah, well of course he's right. Anybody be righteous. If you gave him everything you gave Job, oh my God, why wouldn't he be righteous? And God said no, that's not why. He's right righteous. And he is, because he's sincerely, devoutly pious. And the Satan says, no he's not. If you took everything away from him, he wouldn't, you know, he would curse you. And God said I, I don't think so. Satan said, yes he would. And God said, okay, take everything away, then see what happens. And so the Satan figure takes away all the, all of his possessions, loses all of his possession, loses all of his cattles and his sheep and his camels and everything else. And his 10 children are killed in a storm. So he loses everything. And he refuses to curse God. He says, well, you know, God gave me the good things, now he's taken them away. So blessed be the name of the Lord. Then God starts bragging on him again. See, I told you to the Satan, I told you you wouldn't curse me and say, well, yeah, because you know, you told me to take everything away, but you didn't let me touch him. I tell you if you afflict him with a bodily problems man, he's going to curse you like crazy. So God says, I don't think so. Satan's an issue. You know, basically it sounds kind of like a bet, you know, to see if that'll happen. And God says, go ahead and do it. And so he inflicts Job with horrible, horrible suffering, sores all over his bodies, scraping pus off of his wounds with a piece of pottery. And his wife, Job's wife says, look, just curse God and die. And then he refuses to. He says, you know, I'm not going to curse God. He's given and he's taken away. Now. So that's just the first two chapters. After that, there are like 39 chapters that go on after that where he's got three friends who come to him originally in the story, in the first, in the second chapter, just to sit with him and moan and, you know, kind of groan and, and mourn with him and don't even say anything for seven days. They're just sympathizing with him, with him and empathizing with him. But then in chapter three, there begin a number of speeches. Job gives a speech where he says, I don't understand why this is happening. I'm completely innocent, I haven't done anything. And when Job will say a speech, then one of the three friends will, will give a speech where he says, well, Job, you know, God doesn't punish the innocent. So you've done something wrong, you're guilty, you've done something, you need to repent. And Job will reply, I don't know what to repent of. I haven't done anything. And then another friend will, oh yes, you must have done something, because otherwise you wouldn't be suffering like this. So you need to realize you're a real sinner, you know, and it Kind of goes. Goes on like this for, like, 39 chapters about partway through. And a fourth friend shows up who doesn't think the other three have done well enough. And so he keeps pushing the point that, in fact, you're sinful Job and need to repent. Job finally says, if God would just give me an audience and tell me what I'd done, I would tell him. I. I don't think I've done anything wrong. If you found some, tell me what I've done so I can rep. And so eventually, God does show up, and he comes out of a world, out of a hurricane, out of a whirlwind or I guess a tornado, and just tells Job he has no business declaring himself innocent before his almightiness. And Job ends up being kind of withered to the ground. And. And that's the end of the poetry. So that's gone on for 39 chapters. Then Chip picks up at the end with Job being rewarded for his righteousness. And so God says, oh, okay, he was great. See, okay, I told you he'd be great. And so he gives him back all of his twice as many cattle and sheep and camels and things, and restore, you know, gives him 10 more children. And it ends happily, allegedly. Sorry, That's a long summary. It's a long book, though.
- [10:02]
Sarah
It's. No, it's an excellent summer. I think It's. It covers all the. Obviously, the major points. Now, before we get into many of the details, you suggested the title for this episode. Could you answer it for us? Why do you think no one understands the Book of Job?
- [10:16]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah, this isn't just a personal opinion. It's kind of widely shared among scholars that most lay people don't understand the book. And it's because what people typically know about Job, or think, if they think anything about it, if they know anything about it, is that he's the righteous man who suffers and he refuses to curse God, and so God rewards him. That's the first two chapters in the final chapter. But they ignore everything in between, which are these long speeches. The speeches are given in poetry as opposed to the beginning and end chapter. It's in poetry, and it's very, very graphic poetry where Job keeps insisting on his insistence and his friends keep saying that, you know, that he's guilty. And I think people don't recognize that. What you have here, as scholars have long realized, is not a single book by a single author with a single theme, that, in fact, you've got two pieces of writing about this man Job that have been put together artificially by somebody who spliced in the vast majority of the book, the poetic dialogues, as they're called, the back and forth between Job and his so called friends. They've put this editor has taken that and inserted it into the short story about Job and left part of the short story out as a result. And so if people just read the beginning and the end, they have one view of Job. If they read the middle, they have a different view of Job. And people either try to figure out some way to make sense of it, or most people don't even notice the difference. And so I think they don't understand, typically because of a technical reason that they don't realize this is two. Two different writings by two different authors.
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Sarah
If people do understand the. That they're two original sources, how do they try and reconcile the differences between what those sources are saying?
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Bart Ehrman
Well, it's very hard to do because if you pay close attention to it, just about everything is different. Job's reaction to suffering is different. He either patiently puts up with it, or he just completely screams out about it and says that it's not fair and he doesn't deserve it and it's not right. So that's different. The friends are different. In the beginning, they come and they just mourn with him for seven days and empathize with him. But in the poetry, they don't empathize at all. They attack him viciously for being a huge sinner. Yeah, so. So they're, they're big different. And there are different views of suffering. You know, why, why is there suffering completely? So how do you reconcile that? Well, I think you have to choose whether to privilege the extended poetry section or the short story section. And what most people do is they try and pigeonhole the poetry into the short story and somehow try and reconcile it. I don't know how you do reconcile it once you realize the differences. I don't think it's very easy to reconcile.
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Sarah
It seems odd for people to take the vast majority of the book as secondary to the beginning and end two verses. Why do you think people do that if the vast majority of the book is this poetic section?
- [13:20]
Bart Ehrman
You know, I think most people are kind of like me. It's easy to read a short story, but it's hard to read poetry. And the poetry goes on and on and on. And this middle section is just like it repeats itself. So the way the section works, by the way, the middle section, the poetry section is. Job declares as innocent one of the friends Responds Job, then defends himself. The other friend responds, and Job defends another third friend. It goes like that. Then there are three cycles of that. Then you get another friend who comes in who attacks Job for chapters on end. And I think a lot of people maybe just don't stick with it. I know a lot of people who are familiar with the story of Job, the beginning and the end, but really don't know what goes on in the middle because it's. It's long and it's poetry. And people tend to prefer a quick
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Sarah
narrative that makes sense. Do the two sources have the same message? I'm assuming not. If it's so difficult to reconcile them.
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Bart Ehrman
Yeah. There's so many differences between them that a lot of people would notice some of the differences that definitely show. I mean, again, this is not a weird view that I have. This is the view that critical scholars have had for a very long time. There are different differences up and down the line. Not only are they different genres. You know, you've got prose, a narrative to begin, then. And then you've got poetry in the middle. God is, of course, in all these sections, God's called different things. In the narrative, he's Yahweh, the God of Israel. In the poetry section, he's not Yahweh. He's, you know, he's called El or he's got. He has other names, but not, you know, they don't use Yahweh. And so the different names, different genres, different writing styles, different views of Job, different views of Job's friends, how Job reacts is different. And I would say they also contain very different messages. Both of them are concerned about the issue, about why they're suffering. Let me preface this by saying that this issue had long been an issue in ancient Israel, particularly because ancient Israelites understood that God had made them his people. He had saved them from slavery in Egypt, he had given them his law, and he had chosen them. He had made a covenant with them, an agreement with them. The agreement was that if they would worship him, he would protect them and they would be distinctly his people. But throughout the course of Israelite history, one disaster after the other happened. I mean, as with most peoples, really, in some senses, you know, I mean, there are. Obviously, there are natural disasters that happened all the time, but also there were things that you would think, well, Israel seems to be distinctively called out to be suffering. I mean, part of the problem is Israel was located in this landmass, right between a world power down in Egypt and a world Power up in Mesopotamia. And so if anybody wanted to control that whole area, they had to go through Israel. And so Israel was getting conquered all the time. First, you know, the Assyrians wiped them out, then later the Babylonians took over, then the Persians took over, then the Egyptians took over, then the Syrians took over, and boom, boom, boom, military defeat after military defeat. And at some point Israel after saying, like, why? I thought we were God's chosen people. So the standard solution that had to be dealt with either favorably or unfavorably, the standard solution was one that you find in most of the Hebrew Bible, which is the reason people are suffering. The people of Israel are suffering is because God is punishing them for their sins and that if they would stop sinning, God would relent. They need to turn back to God and then the punishment would end. Or if they turn back, they won't be destroyed by the Babylonians. Or if after they're destroyed by the Babylonians and they repent, that God will restore them to the land again. And. And so the idea is that suffering comes as a punishment for sin. And so the Book of Job is written in that context of that. Understanding of why there's suffering will be especially important in the poetic section. But there are other ways of understanding why they're suffering in the Hebrew Bible and the narrative, the story that I summarized, where the devil tries to make him curse God, God is testing him. He's seeing if he'll remain faithful even if they're suffering. That's different from saying God's punishing somebody. This is a view that you find throughout parts of the Hebrew Bible and elsewhere and in both Jewish and Christian traditions, that sometimes God brings hardship upon us to see if we'll remain faithful to him. Are we being faithful to him because of what we can get out of it, or because we know that it's right to be faithful to him. Job survives the test, and so God rewards him in the narrative. So here it's just a big test. So the cynical read of that is that, you know, it's kind of like God and Satan are placing a bet on, like, whether the Satan can make him sin or not. God wants to prove it to the Satan. And so, like, Job is this innocent victim who's just like God even says to the Satan, you know, you've done this to him for no reason. So there's no reason for it to happen other than to see if Job will stay faithful.
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Sarah
So if that's how the narrative explains suffering, as a test of one's faithfulness. How does the poetic source explain it?
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Bart Ehrman
Yeah, the poetic source doesn't have that view at all. The poetic source is embracing the view that I summarized as one that you find throughout the Hebrew Bible that people suffer because they've sinned. And the way it works is the friends take that line. Job keeps insisting, I've done nothing wrong. And the friends keep saying, you had to do something wrong because God does not bring this kind of suffering on somebody who's innocent. And since your suffering is so horrific, you've done something really wrong and you need to confess. That's playing out the prophetic view. Sometimes that's called the classical prophetic view. The classical view of suffering or the prophetic view of suffering that you suffer because God's punishing you. That's the view of the friends. Job refuses to accept it because he knows he hasn't done anything wrong. And so, in a sense, it's challenging this prophetic view. At the same time, their friends are putting it forward. But what happens at the end of the poetic section really completely throws the whole thing on its head because it ends up with a completely different understanding of why they're suffering.
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Sarah
So what does that end section give us?
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Bart Ehrman
So Job has been complaining that I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. Friends are saying, oh, man, you've really messed up somewhere. And so when Job says, look, I call on God to just give me an audience. Let me defend myself before the Almighty. And, you know, you got to be careful what you ask for, because God then appears to him in his horrifying, terrifying, almighty power. And when he appears to him, he doesn't say, yeah, Joe, let me hear what you got to say for yourself. Or he doesn't say, joe, yeah, no, I get it. You don't know what you did. But let me tell you what you did wrong. It's not like that. He doesn't have a reasonable conversation with Job about it. What happens is God appears to him, and he says, who are you to be accusing me of wrongdoing? I'm the Almighty. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Were you there? Have you ever visited the storehouses of the snow and the weather? Do you know what happens up here in the heavenly realm? Do you know what happens in this entire world? I'm in control of this whole thing, and you're just a peon. You're accusing me of something, and God just lays into him, And Job says, man, yeah, I knew it wouldn't go because I Mean, how am I supposed to confront the Almighty? And then God goes at him a second time. Where were you when? I mean, just blasting into me. You have no right to ask this. You know, I am the Almighty and you're just a creature. And at the end of it, he just basically withers Job. I mean, he just ends up on the ground, you know, wallowing in the dust. And he says, you know, wallowing in dust and ashes, here I repent, I give up. Because there's nothing to say before the Almighty. So in terms of what this is saying about why they're suffering, it's really a very troubling view. It's a troubling view because the answer to why they're suffering here at the end of Job is that we can't know the answer. We're not going to know the answer. God won't give us the answer. And if we ask God for the answer, he's going to overwhelm us and wipe us out. We don't have the right even to ask because God's God and we're not. And so don't even ask why you suffer. Whoa, really? That's tough.
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Sarah
Are there any similar disturbing parts in the narrative that you found?
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Bart Ehrman
Oh, yeah, yeah. Completely different. Different. Completely different troubling parts. But oh man, seriously troubling. As I pointed out in the narrative, in the story, at the beginning of the end, Job is being tested and he passes the test. And so you know what happens when you pass the test with God? Well, you get rewarded. And so God restores everything that Job had and double fold. So he gets twice as many camels, twice as many sheep, twice as many, etc. Etc. And God gives him 10 more children, seven sons and three daughters. And you think, wait a second, God allowed his children to be killed in order to see if he'd stay faithful. And then when he was faithful, God, who had no reason to kill the children, he killed these people in order to see if Job would be faithful. Then in order to reward Job for staying faithful, he gives him another 10 children. Like this is supposed to make up for the loss of 10 lives. I think this is one of the most disturbing passages in the Bible and it's meant to be upbeat, right? Oh, I got twice as many sheep and twice as many cattle. And you know, he got 10 more children. When you think about it, this is horrible to imagine. Somebody thinks this is what God would do, that he'd kill your child and then if you didn't curse him, he'd give you A different one. Children can't be replaced. I find that at least as disturbing as I find the poetry. But it's a very, very different view of things.
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Sarah
So thinking about the pretty horrific deaths of the children and how that is resolved, can people argue, do people argue that this actually isn't something that God is responsible for, but it's the adversary, the Satan figure?
- [24:05]
Bart Ehrman
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. This is, I would say, how most interpreters try, not critical scholars, but like most people who read this, try to make sense of. They say, well, it's not God's fault. Satan did it. And people have the idea that Satan is this evil being that's opposed to God and is wreaking havoc on the earth. The reason people have that view of what the Satan figure is is because later developments within Judaism that were taken over by Christianity in which Satan is a. An adversary of God and he's like the embodiment of evil and so that naturally he's the one at fault, but he's not that. In the book of Job, in the book of Job, he's one of the sons of God, who is a council that God speaks to up in heaven to talk about affairs on earth. He's one of the angelic beings. He's called Hasatan, the Satan. The word Satan means something like adversary. He's the adversary, but he's not the adversary of God. He's one of God's henchmen. He's an angel who does God's will. He's the adversary of humans, as I said, to use the kind of the loose term, devil's advocate, but not in an evil way. He just does. He challenges God's view of Job. And Job, God then lets him do what he does to Job, but God tells him to do it. God instructs the Satan to do it. It's not the Satan doing it on Satan's initiative, it's on God's initiative. And so it's clear. And God's the one who restores. God takes everything away. Job says he takes away. He gives and he takes away. And if you're faithful, he'll give again.
- [25:47]
Sarah
So when do we see this Christian understanding of Satan as the embodiment of evil coming in to religious thought.
- [25:55]
Bart Ehrman
So the idea of a devil, you know, an evil being that is opposed to God and his people and does horrible things to his people, who has, like, demons who work for him and that kind of thing, you don't get that in the Hebrew Bible. There's only one other passage in the Hebrew Bible in Chronicles that mentions the Satan figure. And again, so the main passage is this thing in Job, and the Satan here is an angel of some kind. So there are debates, I should point out, there are debates about when this book was written. It's complicated to date this particular book because there's almost nothing to go on about when it would have been written. Linguists who study the Hebrew language usually dated to the 5th or 6th century BCE, something like that. It's interesting that Job is not even an Israelite in this book. He's from a place called Uz, so he's not an Israelite. So that's kind of interesting. It's somewhere around Edom, the country of Edom. So scholars tend to date this thing various times, but one widespread view is 5th or 6th century. So several centuries after that is when the idea of a Satanic being a devil appeared and appeared with the rise of what we've talked about before, with apocalyptic points of view that tried to wrestle with why they're suffering in the world and concluded that it's not because of God. And it's not God testing people. And it's not because God won't give you an answer or it's not, you know, they're not other things. It's because there are powers of evil that are bringing suffering in the world. And so they take this Hasatan figure, this adversary figure, and they make him into the devil and they, they come up with the idea of demons and other supernatural powers that are opposed to humans. So that's usually dated to the 2nd century BCE, so three or four hundred years after the book of Job.
- [27:45]
Sarah
Thank you. Do you think that there is an overall takeaway message from either section of the book that the readers were supposed to come away with?
- [27:53]
Bart Ehrman
Yeah, I do. I think they're two different messages that the authors are trying to convey. You know, on one level they kind of make sense, even though at a deeper level they're pretty disturbing. The narrative, the story, the point is, is that suffering sometimes, sometimes you're being put to the test to see where you're fidelity is. What are you faithful to? Are you only out for yourself for what you can get in? For example, if you're a religious person, are you a religious person for what you can get out of it? So, you know, if you think that you can get rich by being faithful to God, or if you think that you can get status, or if you think, you know, whatever you, you're trying to get something out of it, if that's why you're religious, that's wrong. The reason to be religious is to be faithful to God because God deserves to be worshiped. So that's, you know, you could see that as a commendable message for people who are serious about their religious commitments. But the way it plays out is that God will test you and bring horrible suffering on you in order to see if you're faithful. Even admitting that there's no reason to do it other than to see if you'll be faithful, that could be more disturbing, especially if God tries to make it up for you and by giving you things that cannot be made up for, like the loss of children. So that would be the message. I think of the narrative section that sometimes suffering is a test from God. In the poetic section, the message is we can't understand everything that goes on in this world. The ways of God are mysterious and we need to have faith that whatever happens is God's will. We should not accuse God. We should accept what happens and realize there's a greater purpose behind it. So that would be a kind of a positive spin on the message. But again, the deeper side of it is that, you know, God. I think most people who even who believe in God think that God gave us intelligence and expected us to use our brains. And the only way to use our brains is to ask questions about reality around us. And if you can't ask a question about the most fundamental reality of all, you know, what it means to live in a world where these horrible things happen. If you can't even ask that question, then it's a contradiction because why else would you have a brain? You know, God could have just created us as slugs, you know, but if we have brain, surely he means for us to use it. And so it seems to be a contradiction. And it seems like kind of an easy cop out. Oh, well, you know, God knows why my house burned down and all my children died and I lost everybody. Well, God knows, but, you know, I can't. I can't try and figure it out, really. Okay, then, you know, how human are you?
- [30:30]
Sarah
So if that's how the messages were originally intended, maybe by the author or the editors, how do you find most modern Christians understand the book? What takeaway do they have from it?
- [30:42]
Bart Ehrman
I'd say the most common takeaway is that sometimes something difficult happens to you that you can't understand. But, you know, you shouldn't abandon your faith. You should actually stay true to your faith because there's a reason for it. And it may be that it's a test and if it is, then you stay faithful and that's more important than whatever you lost. Your faith is more important than your possessions. And so that would be a positive message. And I'd say that's probably the message most people take away from it, that we have to be patient in the midst of suffering, realizing that it'll all be okay in the end.
- [31:17]
Sarah
Thank you very much. We are going to take a very quick break and we'll be back with some news on upcoming events.
- [31:24]
Megan Lewis
Pop what does Barthes think is the most intriguing and misunderstood gospel? Drumroll please. It's the Gospel of Mark. It may come as no surprise then that Barthes first online course on a gospel is all about the Book of Mark. In Barthes eight lesson course titled Jesus the Secret Messiah, Revealing the mysteries of the Gospel of Mark, you'll explore Mark's unique portrayal of Jesus from Jesus identity as the expected destroyer of God's enemies to his complex relationship with those around him. And find out why in Mark, unlike the other gospels, none of Jesus closest relationships realize who he really is. Not the Jewish leaders, not those hearing his message, not even his closest disciples. Don't miss out on the chance to discover the mysteries of Mark's gospel and all its narrative twists. Visit bart erman.com mark to learn more or sign up today and remember to use discount code mjpodcast for a special offer.
- [32:36]
Bart Ehrman
This is Bart's weekly update where we get to catch up on all the latest about Dr. Ehrman's book releases, speaking engagements, ehrmanblog.org happenings and online course launches.
- [32:49]
Sarah
So Bart, you've been researching for a while now your latest book, and I know you've started writing it. How is that going? And could you remind everyone what you're writing on?
- [32:59]
Bart Ehrman
I'm calling the book the Origins of Altruism, how the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Conscience of the West. And it's kind of a grandiose title. But it's because I, I don't think that there was no altruism before Jesus. But it's about how, how the concern that most of us have when people suffer that we don't even know, you know, people in Sudan or Somalia or wherever, you know, we're having horrible suffering. We, you know, we contribute money sometimes or we, we feel for them. It's where that, that sense came from. And I'm going to be arguing that it came from the teachings came from teachings of Jesus, which some people think is completely common sense. Well, of course, where else would it come from. And other people are going to think, no, that's crazy. Are you kidding me? Come on. And so I'm going to try and I'm going to try and show it and even show it in ways that people who think it's common sense will not have thought of. Yeah. So how's the writing going? I tell you, I like writing books, but the stressful moment for me is the actual writing. Like when I'm putting pen to paper, which I don't do, but when I'm putting fingers to keyboard, it's not that it's difficult for me. I write very, very fast because the way I write my books, I know what I'm going to say ahead of time because I have extensive outlines and so I, I can basically write as fast as I can type lots of times. And so I can write a lot and I can write fast. But I have this drive to get the thing done and it's like this craziness sets in and this stress like, oh my God, I gotta write 10, 000 words today. It's like doing it is fantastic. I enjoy it a lot, like when it. But like looking forward to it. It's stressful. And I think I'm probably not a pleasant human being to be around when I'm in this mood. Which is maybe one reason why I try and get it over with quickly. So like I get out of. But anyway, so I'm at that point now. I'm. I've written a couple chapters now and I'm. And I'm writing away and I'm trying to slow down, slow myself down a little bit. Just like, you know, just calm down. Stop doing this to yourself.
- [35:01]
Sarah
Yes, I understand and I empathize. I'm probably also not a nice person to be around when I'm in the middle of a really any project. I get very laser focused and I want it finished.
- [35:11]
Bart Ehrman
Yes.
- [35:12]
Sarah
And reminding myself to slow down and enjoy the process is very difficult.
- [35:17]
Bart Ehrman
It's really hard. You know, one reason, I don't know if it's like this with you, but with me it's, it's unpleasant because if I'm, if I laser focus some on something, something that interrupts me is just like being woken up with a cold water thrown in your face. It's just like, it's like, just not. It's not nice to be around. What are you going to do? That's how you are.
- [35:40]
Sarah
Yes.
- [35:41]
Bart Ehrman
Right. Well. So Meg, I've never seen you in one of these moods and I think maybe I don't want to.
- [35:47]
Sarah
I. Yeah, I. I try is why. I try and work on project things when I'm home alone in the house because I know I have this many hours to do whatever it is I need to do. No one will interrupt me. And then when the house is full of people again, I'm not doing that. So there are no interruptions for me to get dragonish about.
- [36:07]
Bart Ehrman
The problem is, you know that you've got a time when, you know, this is going. I've got till 5 o', clock, you know, and, oh, God, I gotta hurry. Five o'. Clock. Oh, my God.
- [36:16]
Sarah
Yes, yes. And then bless him. If Josh needs to call to check something. He calls and I'm like, yes, What? I'm doing. I'm doing things. What? What? What, what? What?
- [36:26]
Bart Ehrman
Exactly, Exactly. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. It's not pleasant. I know. Yeah, yeah, Sarah, same thing. Yeah.
- [36:30]
Sarah
I feel bad for our mutual spouses.
- [36:32]
Bart Ehrman
Oh, Sarah, I'm sorry, I have my phone off.
- [36:38]
Sarah
Yeah, never mind. We should move on to listeners questions because there are some. There's some good ones this week.
- [36:47]
Bart Ehrman
Now it's time for questions from listeners where Bart answers real questions submitted by misquoting Jesus fans. If you'd like to submit a question for future segments, please visit bart erman.com Ask Bart
- [37:05]
Sarah
and we are back. First question is the role of Revelation's condemnation of Jezebel, representative of a shifting attitude towards women's roles in the church when compared to the time of Paul.
- [37:18]
Bart Ehrman
Wow, you talk about a horrible story, man. Yeah, this ranks right up there with some things we've talked about in Job. So there's this passage in the book of Revelation where Jesus early on, in chapters two and three of the book of Revelation, Jesus is dictating letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor to the author John. And he dictates this letter to the church of Thyatira. And he mentions he's really upset with the people in Thyatira, the Christians in Thyatira. And he threatens to take away their salvation. And there's one person in particular that he's ticked off about. And he calls this woman's name, Jezebel. Jezebel. It's a reference to a queen in ancient Israel found in the Old Testament who urged people to worship gods other than Yahweh. And so God had her killed in the Old Testament. So she's like the prototypical evil queen. And so Jesus calls this woman in the church, Jezebel. She's apparently a prophetess or some kind of church Leader. And it appears that what she's doing is saying to people in her church that it's okay to eat meat that has been offered to idols that has been sold in the marketplace, that if it's been offered to an idol, it's okay to eat the meat because idols don't exist or it's not really other gods. And so it's okay. In this book, Jesus thinks this. This is a horrible thing that she's. She, in fact, is sponsoring idolatry, and idolatry leads to sexual immorality. And it's a horrible thing she's doing. And she's. And so this is a Christian leader that he's condemning, and he says he is going to take Jezebel and throw her on a bed, and men are going to come and have sex with her, and he will inflict them with diseases, and then he will kill Jezebel's babies. What? Yeah, because she's teaching it's okay to eat meat that, you know, you buy in the marketplace. So it's a horrible thing. And people try to get around this passage. Even translators. Translators will say, when Jesus throws her on a bed, they'll say. They'll translate it. Hospital bed. You know, he's going to make her a little bit sick and she has to go to hot. No, it's not hospital bed. She throws her on a bed and then has men come and have sex with her. So, wow, this is not good. All right, so that's the book of Revelation. So this person is asking, is this showing kind of a change of things in what was going on in Paul's day with women leadership? It's a good question, and it's hard to know the answer to it. In Paul's day, women were leaders of churches. Some women were deacons, some were missionaries, some were leaders of churches in their homes. One woman is called one of the leading apostles. And so women had these important roles in his churches. Is it that the author of Revelation, somebody named John, thought that women had no right to teach in churches and that was leading people astray? That's possible. That's possible. But we just don't know enough about the social situation of these churches to be able to say for sure.
- [40:29]
Sarah
Thank you. Next question is going back to the Old Testament. Did Old Testament prophecy correlate with Jewish apocalyptic thinking?
- [40:39]
Bart Ehrman
That's a very good question. And, you know, my first PhD seminar I took on Hebrew Bible was dealing with this very question. The entire seminar was called From Prophecy to Apocalyptic. The question that was being asked that we dealt with for the entire semester was how did apocalypticism develop out of the prophets, the prophetic movement? And so the simple way to put it is I mentioned earlier that prophets understood that God was punishing people, the people of Israel, for their sins and that they would repent, then God would stop the punishment. At some point in Israel's history came to a highlight in the peak in the 2nd century BCE, many Jewish thinkers realized we're not being punished for breaking God's law. In fact, we're suffering because we're keeping God's law. Other nations are punishing us for keeping the Torah. So it can't be God doing it. And they ended up thinking that there were powers of evil that were doing it who were opposed to God. And that develops then the apocalyptic movement. So what happens I think is the prophetic views transformed over time into apocalyptic views. So they're not the same thing, but one develops out of the other.
- [41:50]
Sarah
Thank you. The next one, the questioner says, I read in a study guide on Matthew that his sermons of Jesus are stylistically imitative of the Old Testament prophets. Do you think Matthew was stressing that Jesus was a prophet rather than the savior of the world or God incarnate?
- [42:05]
Bart Ehrman
So I don't know that there are any linguistic features that particularly link the sermons of Jesus in Matthew to the writings of the prophets. Most of the prophetic literature is in poetry, Hebrew poetry. Jesus sermons are not, they are more like wisdom sayings you get in the Old Testament where like in the Book of Proverbs you have a lot of really clever one liners. You get a lot of clever one liners in Jesus and he tells, he does parables, which you do get in prophets. You certainly get parable kind of thing, parabolic things and prophets. So to that extent it'd be be like the prophets. I think it's a mistake to say is he a prophet as opposed to something else. Because I don't think that ancient early Christians like Matthew probably thought in discrete categories that he's either a prophet or he's the Son of God or he's God incarnate. It's not like that. So you have to kind of figure out what he's trying say about Jesus. And I think he's trying to say a lot of things about Jesus in these sermons. The Sermon on the Mount is a kind of an interpretation of the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai. Sermon on the Mount, Mount Sinai. And he's being portrayed as a new Moses. He's certainly being portrayed as A prophet. He's certainly called the Son of God. He's absolutely the savior of the world. All of that in Matthew. I don't think Matthew does understand him as God incarnate. He's not a pre existent being for Matthew who's become a human being. He is in the Gospel of John, but not the Gospel of Matthew. I don't think there are these discrete categories that you pick one. I think you figure out which ones are how Matthew's imagining Jesus.
- [43:38]
Sarah
Excellent. Thank you. And our final question is a little why was the Middle east the birthplace of three of the major modern religions? Is there something special about the area or the people as opposed to, for example, European?
- [43:52]
Bart Ehrman
Well, that's a great question. I don't have a good answer for it. I would say that when we think of the three great monotheistic religions, we think of them as great because two of them comprise half the world's population. Islam and Christianity. Christianity has over 2 billion of the 8 billion people in the world who follow it. And Islam has nearly 2 billion, both growing, I think. And Judaism is smaller, but Judaism is the foundation for Christianity. Christianity would not exist without Judaism. So it grew out of Judaism. And the reason it is one of the major world religions is because it took over the Roman Empire and so it took over the West. If that had not happened, I don't know that we would talk about the three great world religions. Islam came along centuries later. And there are questions among scholars. Some argue that Islam would have arisen without anything like Christianity. I don't see how that could possibly have happened or without Judaism. I think the answer is basically, I suppose the answer is that it's not that people living in the Middle east are special in any particular way like that. It's that Christianity, once it moved out of the Middle east, took over Europe and became the dominant force of the Western world and Islam came on its heels.
- [45:08]
Sarah
Thank you very much, audience. Thank you all for submitting your questions. If you have a question for Bart, or if you have a group of three that you would like to ask for our Outsmart Bart segment, Please go to www.barterman.com Ask Bart and you can submit them there. Now, Bart, before we finish for the week, would you mind just summarizing what we talked about today?
- [45:30]
Bart Ehrman
Well, we've been talking about the very interesting and powerful Book of Job, which I've maintained along with lots of others that most people reading don't pay carefully enough attention to really to understand, because it begins and ends with a short story. That is probably almost certainly written independently of the poetry that takes 39 chapters in between. And so the short story has been split in half with a poetic section put in between. And these two different writings that have now been combined into our Book of Job convey different lessons about the same issue. Why is there suffering in the story at the beginning and end? Suffering is a test from God to see if we will remain faithful to him even if things go badly for us. In the poetry, you can suffer for no reason at all, and you have no right even to ask God why you suffer, even if you're innocent. And so those are two different views. It's a really, it's a very powerful book that I recommend people read. I myself find it very disturbing in both it's the story and in the poetic section.
- [46:34]
Sarah
Thank you so much, audience. Thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Remember that you can use the code mjpodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartehrman.com. misquoting Jesus will Be Back Next Week Bart, what are we talking about next time?
- [46:54]
Bart Ehrman
So next time we're taking a big shift. We're moving back to the New Testament to talk about Judas Iscariot. And we're going to be talking about what was it that Judas betrayed? And we may get into why he betrayed it. So about Judas, the things questions surrounding Judas Iscariot.
- [47:10]
Sarah
Thank you all for watching. Join us next week. And goodbye.
- [47:17]
Megan Lewis
This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus Christ with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.