← Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
The Scholar and the Savior: Bridging Belief and Critical Study
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- [00:00]
A
Struggling with weight that doesn't respond to traditional dieting. Prolon's five day Fasting Mimicking Diet is a clinically developed nutrition program designed to promote fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, it assists the body in entering a fasting like state that helps reset metabolism, target visceral fat and supports healthy metabolic markers. In just five days, Prolon offers a structured, science backed approach to weight loss without extreme restriction or guesswork. Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe@prolonlife.com today Today's episode is a bit of a departure from our typical episode for believers, it's about how critical study of the Bible can deepen your faith. For non believers, this is an opportunity to understand how many Christians reconcile their belief with scholarship. We're joined by John Christopher Edwards, an Episcopalian scholar, to share his personal journey with us. Welcome to Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin. So as I said, today I am joined by John Christopher Edwards. John, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking with me.
- [01:23]
B
I'm very happy to be here. Megan, thank you.
- [01:25]
A
Of course. So for those who are not familiar with John, he is the Vice President of Academic affairs for Undergraduate Education and Programs and the Academic Dean of undergraduate education at St. Francis College. He began his career at SFC in 2011 as a faculty member in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies. He made the transition from faculty to administration in January 2024. All of his books and articles can be found on his academia website. We will link that in the show description. And his most recent book is Crucifix the Christian Invention of the Jewish Executioners of Jesus. John, again, we're so glad to have you here today. This conversation is really about bridging belief and critical study, which resonates very deeply with so many people navigating faith and scholarship. So I think this is really going to be a fantastic conversation.
- [02:14]
B
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.
- [02:16]
A
Now, before we get into more detailed questions, could you just share a bit about your background? So how and when you became a Christian and maybe what role faith played in your life growing up?
- [02:25]
B
Sure. I grew up in Northeast Tennessee. Everyone I knew in that environment was some form of Evangelical Protestant. If I had met an Eastern Orthodox person or a Roman Catholic person. I would have thought they were extremely exotic. In terms of my own faith, I wouldn't say that I became a Christian since I never really identified as anything else. But certainly there was a transitional time in my teen years when I made my parents faith my own. That was a time when I began reading the Bible, praying daily, which is what folks in the evangelical tradition call a quiet time. And that's a practice that I've always found very helpful and I still continue to this day. Growing up, faith was a great educator for me. Every day I read the Bible and that was the only book that I consistently read. My parents were certainly not intellectuals, so I leaned on my faith to gain an education. I learned to closely read texts, think about big ideas, and I gained the self confidence and contentment that comes with the belief that I am loved by God.
- [03:39]
A
Thank you very much. Now, I said that you are an Episcopalian. Have you ever attended other churches ever? The types of churches besides Episcopalian? And what was your experience with different faith denominations?
- [03:51]
B
Certainly, yeah. For the first 12 years of my life I actually attended, of course with my family and at my parents, choosing a Pentecostal church with a live band, people dancing in the aisles, people raising their hands throughout the service, you know, the soft sound of babbling tongues being spoken in the background. During middle school, though, my parents left the Pentecostal tradition and took us to a Disciples of Christ Church where we stayed for a couple years. I believe the Disciples of Christ church that we went to was called Hale's Chapel. That's H A L E S. But of course the jokes abounded about that. We went to Hell's Chapel. Then when I was entering high school, we moved to a large non denominational church in our area. As some of your listeners might know, all these non denominational churches are technically independent, but all of their beliefs are basically Baptist. Speaking of Baptists, during all four years of undergraduate school I was involved in a Baptist church plant that met in a music conservatory in downtown Chicago. After undergraduate school I went to seminary at Dallas Theological Seminary. And while in seminary I attended a Presbyterian church for a couple years. The Presbyterians didn't really stick with me because I felt that they had God figured out a little bit too much for my taste. So I finally in Dallas, ended up at an Episcopalian church and that's where I felt most at home and that's where I've been ever since. Currently my family and I attend an Episcopalian church on the north shore of Staten island. Called Christ Church New Brighton, which I love very much. I love the people there. I love the rector. I like the Episcopal Church because it has a global communion. It has a connection with the tradition of the church. It has a strong liturgical center, but it's not too dogmatic. And that fits me very nicely at the moment. But who knows what the future holds? I might die a Pentecostal.
- [05:52]
A
I have to confess, I have a very soft spot for Episcopalian churches, too. I was raised Anglican, and it's been a while since I attended church regularly, but when I do, it's an Episcopal Church. I find them very warm. They're warm and welcoming places. I have the advantage also of the hymns. I really love music, and the hymns are the ones that I grew up with. So it just feels very comfortable for me.
- [06:16]
B
Nice. I'm glad to hear that.
- [06:17]
A
What led you to study the Bible critically? Obviously, you had a very strong background of personal faith and personal relationship with the Bible, but really pursuing critical scholarship is a bit of a different beast. Did you have a moment or a turning point that inspired you to go into this?
- [06:35]
B
Certainly. When I was in high school, some neighborhood friends and I were acting up in the neighborhood, ringing random doorbells and running away stuff like that kid stuff. One of the houses, though, that we rang their doorbell and ran away turned out to be a house packed with students from East Tennessee State University who were heavily involved with Campus Crusade for Christ, which is a popular evangelical college ministry that has since been rebranded as crew. Anyways, they caught us terrorizing their house, and they invited us in for Bible study. It was actually a weird moment, but they were cool college guys offering us to hang out. And so, of course I was hooked. I loved reading the biblical texts with them and asking them all of my hard questions. And at that point, I thought I wanted to be a missionary to China. And that's a whole other long story in and of itself. And I actually spent two summers, my junior summer and my senior summer of high school in China teaching English and talking about Jesus. So the college guys that I'd been doing these Bible studies and being educated in the evangelical tradition with told me that the best missionary school to go to was Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. And my father really likes Moody Bible Institute as well, because the tuition was free. So he was like, that sounds great. Go there. When I got to Moody, I decided that I was going to major in biblical languages. So I took a ton of Greek and a ton of Hebrew, and I loved all my classes where I had to write exegetical papers, scholarly papers on the ancient world. Eventually, my friends broke it to me and told me that I would be a terrible missionary. So I let that go, and I decided to pursue a career in biblical scholarship. I think at that point, I thought maybe I would end up teaching at a place like Moody one day. But of course, that never happened.
- [08:35]
A
So after Moody, what path did your academic career take? Where did you go next to continue your studies?
- [08:40]
B
So, as I've already hinted at, after Moody, I went to Dallas Theological Seminary. I knew I needed to go to a seminary, since if I wanted to eventually teach, the likelihood of getting a job in a seminary was much greater than getting one in a university. And seminaries often want their faculty to have been in seminary themselves. As to why Dallas Theological Seminary, well, in some senses, it was a natural next step after Moody Bible Institute, since they're both dispensational schools. But I mostly went because my really good friend from Moody had gone to Dallas the year before, and my wife's brother was already studying to be a minister at Dallas Seminary, so it just kind of felt like it made sense. During my last year at Dallas, it was posted on the wall outside the New Testament office that the University of St. Andrews in Scotland had a PhD studentship being offered, which included full tuition coverage and a living stipend. So I was like, great. I applied, and I was, of course, fortunate enough to get the award. I went to St. Andrews, planning to study with a very famous New Testament scholar named Marcus Bokmuhle, and the scholarship actually came with him. But right before I went to St. Andrews, he transferred to Oxford, but the money stayed at St. Andrews. So I stayed at St. Andrews, and I ended up working with a scholar named Grant McCaskill. I was actually his first PhD student, and I did my doctoral work with him, studying the reception history of some biblical texts in the patristic period. So my scholarly training was Moody to Dallas, to St. Andrews.
- [10:20]
A
I really love St. Andrews. I have a lot of family up in Scotland, and St. Andrews is beautiful city, fantastic university. I'm a little bit jealous that you got to study there.
- [10:30]
B
Yes, it's very bucolic.
- [10:31]
A
Now, as I understand, Dallas Theological Seminary is a relatively conservative evangelical school. Could you tell us a little bit about your experience attending there and whether you found your own beliefs being impacted by some of the evangelicalism that you were suddenly surrounded with?
- [10:48]
B
For sure, yeah. I would say that when I left Moody, I was already rejecting many evangelical ideas about the Bible. During my senior year at Moody, I actually read the first edition of Bart Ehrman's Intro to the New Testament. It's that it was the blue edition, the dark blue edition. I can also recall a couple tense conversations with some of my professors who seemed to me at that point academically dishonest for their affirmations about biblical inerrancy. And some of the evidence I knew that they were looking at in the biblical text, where, I mean, we're all looking at the same data. So just to state the obvious, Dallas Theological Seminary was probably not the wisest choice. There were definitely many classes at Dallas where I felt a bit bitter at the faculty and a bit lost in the crowd of students planning to become evangelical pastors in evangelical churches, which I of course had absolutely no intention of doing. I actually now like to joke that I spent three years in textile. See how I did that? Texas Exile. Having said that, I did get some solid text critical training at Dallas with Dan Wallace, which I'm very grateful for. I also have to give a big shout out to Darrell Bock, who very kindly took this semi angry seminary student under his wing. Darrell is very evangelical through and through, but he's also a very good scholar. So he was kind enough to invite me to his home, took me to hockey games, let me assist him editing his Acts commentary, would sit and, you know, listen to my botched translations as we read through German theological texts together. So all that to say, you know, Dallas was probably not the wisest choice for me, but it wasn't a total loss for sure. Plus it led me to my PhD studentship in St. Andrews. So maybe you should say, like John, stop complaining.
- [12:39]
A
I think you can acknowledge that something had a positive eventual outcome and that you gained valuable experience from it and also say that there were still things that were challenging for you. And I think definitely being surrounded by people with a very different theology, a very different outlook to you, can be very isolating. I think exile is not a bad way of describing it. Now, do you have a particular academic field of expertise or do you kind of do a little bit of everything?
- [13:08]
B
Probably more the latter. I mean, I can write semi intelligently about most things from Jesus to Constantine. In terms of expertise, my dissertation had a particular focus on the Gospels of Mark and Matthew. My second book was on the Epistle of Barnabas, which is a 2nd century proto Orthodox text that several 2nd and 3rd century Christians thought was part of Scripture. It's included in Codex Sinaiticus, for example. However, neither my dissertation nor my Barnabas book are really for wide public consumption. They're Just for other specialists, it's kind of part of a pyramid scheme, I guess, of scholarship. However, my latest book, which I think we may talk about later, is for a broad public consumption and concerns the early Christian claim that Jews executed Jesus. I think that if there is a through line in all three of my books, it is the examination of how traditions about Jesus change in the first few centuries ce and that will probably continue to be the through line in my work going forward.
- [14:13]
A
Thank you. And now congratulations, your Vice President of academic affairs at St. Francis College. Could you tell us a little bit about the types of classes you taught prior to moving into administration?
- [14:25]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much for that kind. Congratulations. I have had the great fortune and pleasure of serving as the Undergraduate Dean and Undergraduate Vice President of academic affairs at St. Francis College in Brooklyn, New York since January 1, 2024. So almost a whole year now. Being in that role in a small liberal arts college on the east coast of the US Is very challenging at the moment, but also with lots of opportunities for creatively reimagining how our undergraduate curriculum can serve our students for many years to come. I do really love what I do, even though it's very different than what I did previously. However, one of the setbacks of administrative work is the loss of time to do the scholarship that fully encompassed the first half of my career. So I'm extremely grateful for times like this where I can sit with someone such as yourself and talk shop in Biblical Studies. So thank you very much. In terms of the courses I taught, getting to your question, before going into administration, every semester I would teach Introduction to the New Testament. Always of course, course assigning Ehrman's Intro to New Testament textbook. I forget which edition I started on, maybe it was the sixth. And you know, and I just remember they changed about once every three years, every semester. I also taught Survey the World's Religions, which I think should be an essential class for every undergraduate student. Occasionally I also taught Koine, Greek or Early Christian Gospels, but my bread and butter was Survey the World's Religions and Intro to New Testament. And I taught those always at the undergraduate level.
- [15:59]
A
Thank you so much. John. We're going to take a couple of minutes. I want to talk to our audience a little bit about our next semester long course which is being put out as part of the Biblical Studies Academy or bsa. And that is the New Testament Exploring the Christian Bible, which is a 27 lesson course running from January 27th to May 5th. And the course is going to be taught by Dr. Hugo Mendez some of you will know Hugo. We've had him on the podcast before. He's actually our guest next week also, and he was one of our speakers at the very first NINT event that's New Insights into the New Testament, which is an online conference that the Barth runs every year. If you don't know Hugo, he's a phenomenal New Testament scholar and teacher. He's a colleague of Barth's at UNC and also co author with Barth of the New Testament An Historical Introduction to Early Christian Writings and the most widely used New Testament textbook, as John was just saying, in universities in the United States. Now, the course itself is designed to really mimic the experience of a university level Intro to New Testament course, but without the stress of homework or graded exams or indeed the high cost of university tuition. And we really think that whether you're a Bible believing Christian, a curious seeker, or simply just interested to learn more about the origins of Christianity, this is really a fantastic opportunity to learn about the history, context and the profound significance of the New Testament. If that sounds interesting to you, then there are two ways to register. First, you can purchase the course as a standalone by itself, kind of like buying a dvd. It's yours. You can own it, you can watch it wherever you want, and the early Bird discount pricing will be good through January 12th. You can go to barturman.com NT that will give you all the pricing details and you can use the MJ podcast code for a special podcast discount. The second way, which I do recommend because it's a little bit better value for money, is to sign up for the New Biblical Scholars Academy, which is an academy where we provide online training to deepen your understanding of biblical scholarship in an active community of Bible enthusiasts. Which for a lot of people is incredibly helpful. Especially if, like John, like myself, you're living somewhere where you don't share the beliefs or the thoughts of the people around you. We've just concluded the very first university level course with Dr. Mark Goodacre on the Synoptic Gospels and there are going to be three like that every year, which this year will include Hugo's New Testament course. Membership to the Academy also includes Barth's monthly Spotlight series, several other courses, and fun community events like live watch parties, member mixes, and even live trivia events with prizes. And I have to say, I love a bit of trivia. If you're a Bible nerd and no one else seems to share your enthusiasm for Biblical studies, BSA is definitely the place to be with all the courses we're estimating the total value of BSA would be $2,700 per year. But if you sign up before January 27th, which is the same day Hugo's course starts, you can not only attend Hugo's course, live get all of the community and training benefits of BSA as only for $39.95 a month. The price will go up after January 27, so be sure to sign up before then to get that lower rate. You can also, if you're not completely convinced, sign up for a 14 day free trial@barturman.com BSA so definitely take a look if you're enjoying this kind of content and you would like to be able to go a little bit deeper in your studies. Now before my very brief break there, John, you had finished giving us a really, really fantastic explanation introduction to who you are, where you come from, and the kind of work that you do. Now I'd like to move on to matters of kind of faith and scholarship. Would you be able to comment on the difference between the sort of work you do studying the Bible from a critical point or historical point of view as opposed to what's maybe a more devotional approach that many Christians take when they study the Bible? What do you see the differences as being? And how might the critical approach challenge some believers, views and faith?
- [20:11]
B
Well, those are really great questions, Megan. Thank you very much. The texts of the Bible are written by humans in history. I think that's just important to say up front. And as a result of that, they can be subjected to the same historical script scrutiny as any other texts. And whether or not a person doing the historical study is Christian or not is largely irrelevant. I think. On the other hand, when Christians study the Bible for devotional purposes, they're not so much concerned about the historical stuff as they are being challenged by the text and encountering God in it. You don't need a PhD to be profoundly challenged by all that love your neighbor stuff. And knowing the semantic range of the Greek word for love, agape, doesn't make you any more likely to choose a loving action when that action might go against your other interests in the moment. So it's not a virtue to be scholarly. So Christians largely read the Bible devotionally to be better human beings, or as they might say it, to be more like Christ. And historical study is not essential to that pursuit. It's an obvious data point. Just think of all the centuries of people who were very good at doing the Christian thing but could not read. However, I Do think that the historical study of the Bible can challenge the faith of some Christians? If their faith is grounded in a commitment to there being no contradictions or errors in the Bible, and if that's where your Christian faith is grounded, then the historical critical approach to the Bible will be a profound challenge for sure.
- [21:52]
A
I can definitely see that, and I've heard that from several friends. Would you say that holding onto one's beliefs is a problem that you see among colleagues and friends who have studied the Bible seriously?
- [22:03]
B
No, I wouldn't, actually. I would say that most people who study the Bible from a historical critical perspective are also Christians. And I don't know if that will or will not be a surprise to your listeners, but I think it's to be expected since most people get into the academic study of the Bible because they originally had a personal interest in the subject. And that's certainly true for me as well. As I've stated previously, honestly, I think the people who struggle are those who work in institutions with strong doctrinal statements about there being no errors in the Bible. For them, I can see how historical studies of certain topics could be very difficult and challenging, whether that's the historicity of the Exodus narrative, the authorship of certain New Testament books, or even moral topics like slavery. However, for academics fortunate enough to work at places where there are no such doctrinal statements about the Bible's inerrancy, I think most probably choose to remain in the Christian faith because they don't see anything contradictory between their faith commitments and the critical study of the Bible.
- [23:15]
A
But we'll quite frequently mention that he's definitely in the minority among biblical scholars, but also among his scholarly friendship group. He's an atheist and everyone else is a Christian, which is, I think, at odds with some of the, maybe not propaganda, but what seems to be a widespread belief among more conservative evangelical Christians that if you go to college and study the Bible in a university setting, you will definitely lose your faith.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah, I think you'll probably find out that, you know, your instructor in the university is probably a Christian, just probably not the kind of Christian that you grew up with.
- [23:53]
A
Absolutely. I do think that's the key difference. So now we've established that biblical scholarship can challenge some believers understandings if they're kind of reliant on this inerrant theological point. How have you personally reconciled your faith with what you've learned through critical study? Or is it genuinely for you, not being an issue?
- [24:13]
B
Yeah, well, as I've hinted, I long ago gave up on the idea that the Bible does not have errors. I also long ago gave up on the idea that the Bible is the absolute center to Christianity. Of course, Christianity is more about a person than a text, I think. I don't know if it was in his book on Christianity, the first 3,000 years, or the BBC documentary that spun off of it, but I remember I heard Dermid McCullough very helpfully describe Christianity as a personality cult. So it really centers around a person, right? Jesus is the revelation of God, the true word of God. And for Christians, of course, he's still around. And Christianity asserts that the Bible points to Jesus, but the Bible itself is not perfect and it can be criticized. Believe it or not. I actually think that the Bible encourages us to criticize it. I think this every semester when I teach the Synoptic Gospels. One of the more certain findings of critical scholarship about the Synoptic Gospels is that Mark is the source for Matthew. Which means that you can see all the places where Matthew believes Mark is wanting by the changes he makes. And of course, many of your listeners will know we call this redaction criticism when you examine how different authors make these changes. So the fact that Matthew's making changes to Mark shows that Matthew does not believe Mark is some divine text that can't be criticized. He thinks it needs improvement and correction. And if your listeners would like a specific example, I think a great one is when a man comes to Jesus in Mark's gospel and he says to Jesus, good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus says, why do you call me good? No one is good but the one God. Matthew, who receives that text from Mark, doesn't like how Mark has stated that because Matthew thinks that it makes Jesus a bit too much lesser than God. So Matthew moves the adjective good off of Jesus and places it on the deed. So in Matthew, the man approaches Jesus and does not call him good teacher, but rather says, teacher, what good deed must I do? So for Matthew, that's more what he would think of as orthodox, and it's more importantly, it's a correction to Mark. So that's what I mean when I say that the Bible is inviting us to criticize it when it criticizes itself. I think that when we struggle with the biblical text in the same way that Matthew struggles with Mark, that's part of our faith journey.
- [26:57]
A
I think that's a really fantastic way of putting a. Thank you. What role would you say that faith has in your life now?
- [27:04]
B
I would say that faith is absolutely central and most of that is because I need it to be. I need those daily quiet times that I first started practicing as a teenager. I still need them to center myself, to check in with God, to escape the rat race. I do live in New York and it does feel like a rat race. Many times I need to be reminded to strive for love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Outside of my religious tradition, there are not lots of mechanisms to be reminded of those things. I need to be reminded of my own smallness and that my life is most fulfilling when I am most in tune with my faith. I also find that I need to go to church, I need to receive the Eucharist, I need to bond with and be challenged by others who have the same faith commitment. And I find that Christian faith is the vehicle through which I am the best version of myself. And for me at least, it doesn't work if I don't believe it.
- [28:09]
A
Thank you. Now, we've heard about your views on the Christian text and your own personal faith position. Something that we hear Christians grappling with quite a lot is the idea of biblical inspiration, which is obviously bound up with this idea of inerrancy. What are your views on biblical inspiration?
- [28:30]
B
Well, first of all, that is a theological term, so I should probably confess that I am not a trained theologian, which is just to say that I do not have a strong philosophical education, which typically undergirds all theology. So my take on biblical inspiration, I suppose, comes mostly from personal experience. And from that experience I would say that I think the Bible is inspired in that it is uniquely the text through which God communicates to Christians. And when you are challenged, encouraged, or convicted by something in the Bible, then it has become God's inspired word to you in that moment. I suppose that I like the idea, which I've always understood as coming from Karl Barth, that the Bible becomes the word of God when you encounter God in it. And for sure, there is a mysteriousness to that encounter. I like to think of Bible reading as sacramental. It's sort of like the Protestant sacrifice sacrament. So very similar to taking the Eucharist. You know, I don't know why it's spiritually beneficial, but it seems to be essential for my own spiritual life. And no other text has quite the same effect as the Bible, certainly on me, but as I observe, on other Christians around me. So if we want to say that that's what it means for the Bible to be inspired in this sort of vague sacramental sort of sense, then I'M totally on board with that.
- [30:07]
A
So what then would you say, John, to someone who is skeptical of the Bible? Obviously you find great value in it. Many people do. For skeptics. How can it still have a positive impact on the world as a whole today?
- [30:21]
B
Yeah, well, I think it just depends on what you are skeptical about. If you are skeptical about some Christians claims for the perfection of the Bible, then you know I'm right there with you. In terms of its impact, I really can only speak for myself and say that it's had a positive impact on me in terms of my education, maybe sort of self education, gaining wisdom, exploring spirituality, encouraging virtues, and being a challenging conversation partner. It challenges me. I challenge it. I'm not so naive as to be unaware that the Bible is also cited to do evils or to advance people's evil intentions. But I think that while using the Bible to advance evil is possible, I suppose, getting back to the previous question, I wouldn't call such uses of the Bible inspired. Right. They're not the Bible as the word of God since they don't advance faith or lead to acts of love or reconciliation.
- [31:28]
A
Thank you so much. What for you has been the biggest challenge in balancing your faith and scholarship, and what then also has been your greatest reward?
- [31:38]
B
Well, certainly early in my academic life as an undergraduate student, I struggled to unlearn some of the notions about the perfection of the Bible that I had taken on as a younger person. And I'm thankful, very thankful to critical scholarship that helped me to do that, to unlearn those things. In terms of reward, I'm pleased to say that having plunged the depths of critical scholarship for the past 25 years or so, I can report that I've not found any smoking gun proving that all this Christianity stuff is easily disproved. You know, nothing showing that Jesus wasn't a historical figure or wasn't crucified or wasn't believed to have been resurrected by his earliest followers. Followers. So there's a degree of comfort gained by being a scholar of early Christianity, being fully aware of the full range of historical discussions about the origin of the faith, and not really being bothered by any of them. And I think that makes me or anyone else with my background a guide for those who might not have time to get a PhD and are looking for some authority to tell them that they are not absolutely nuts for wanting to follow Jesus. And I hope that that. Honestly, I hope that's an encouragement to some people listening to this podcast or watching this YouTube video. And I don't want to make it sound like I like sit on a mountaintop, you know, by myself for sure. I need encouraging voices too. And from time to time I like to watch my own video on YouTube. Anything really with Rowan Williams, who is a great Anglican, Episcopalian, whatever you want to call it, scholar, theologian, and he's always a challenging and comfort to me as an authority.
- [33:25]
A
So thank you very much for sharing that. Turning to your book, this is a critical look at a very familiar story in the Gospels. Could you tell us a bit more about crucified the Christian invention of the Jewish executioners of Jesus?
- [33:40]
B
Sure, yes, very briefly of course, and available on Amazon. So anyone who has ever seen a Jesus movie or an Easter play will of course envision the crucifixion with a man being fixed to a beam by Roman soldiers, that is Men donning a metal helmet with a red crest and perhaps also a red cape. This vision matches the well founded scholarly consensus about what actually happened to Jesus of Nazareth, that he was indeed crucified by Roman soldiers. It also matches our earliest two narrations of Jesus crucifixion in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, and each of which depicts Jesus execution at the hands of Roman soldiers under the direction of Pontius Pilate. However, beginning with the Gospel of Luke, Christians began to accuse Jews of executing Jesus. Following Luke's lead, second and third century retellings of the crucifixion almost uniformly depict Jews as Jesus executioners. In fact, we can reasonably assert that a narration of Jesus execution at the hands of Jews and became standard across the Roman Empire within 100 to 150 years of Jesus death. What's worse is that most ancient Christians who accuse the Jews of killing Jesus were not interested in blaming a handful of malevolent Jews of executing Jesus in Jerusalem around the year 30 CE. Rather, they were interested in blaming the execution on Jews of all ages. In the modern world, both inside and outside the church and academia, there exists a significant degree of ignorance regarding the pervasiveness, or many times even the existence of the claim among earlier generations of Christians that Jesus was executed by Jews and that Jews of all generations bear the guilt for this crime. This ignorance is deeply problematic because it leaves a gaping hole in our understanding of what for so long was the direct underpinning of Christian persecution of Jews. Moreover, it excuses from blame the venerated ancient Christian authors who constructed and perpetuated the claim that Jews executed Jesus. So the purpose of my book is to put an end to this ignorance,
- [36:04]
A
a very excellent and worthy cause I think, and it's been very, very well received by biblical scholars as well as by the lay audience. There was a panel at the Society of Biblical Literature annual conference and received fantastic comments and reviews from people like Mark Goodacre and Paula Friedrichsen, who our audience will be familiar with. So congratulations. And people should most definitely take a look at that to learn more.
- [36:30]
B
Thank you.
- [36:31]
A
Now, if you had a room full of Christians and non Christians, what would you say about the value of biblical scholarship for both groups?
- [36:39]
B
Well, for Christians, I think biblical scholarship is helpful for getting rid of some of these simple ideas of the Bible as some book that fell from heaven. Also, as I've tried to communicate, I do not think that biblical scholarship is essential for individual Christian devotion. However, it is nevertheless always operating in the background. Most Christian readers of the Bible, even if they don't know anything about the history of the Bible, are part of a Christian community that is for sure historically aware. And maybe that's an extra reason to always read the Bible within the confines of a community or a Christian tradition for non Christians. I mean, I think there's a value in knowing about the historical background of the majority religion in America. We are a democracy, so that's going to impact your life whether you like it or not. Which I think is one of Barth's points in one of the prefaces to his Intro to New Testament. And I also think it's definitely important to keep Christians honest about whatever they might assert about their religions past.
- [37:48]
A
Thank you. I definitely agree with that. Now, final question. How do you hope that your work and scholarship will impact people of faith and those curious about Christianity?
- [37:59]
B
Well, I hope that people of faith and those curious about Christianity would see that you can be informed about biblical scholarship and still maintain a very firm commitment to faith. I mean, I certainly feel more Christian today than I ever have and I hope that maintains itself. But that's what you hope. I also hope that people will not be afraid to ask difficult questions of their faith and will embrace that strength, struggle as part of what it means to be a person of faith. Right. It's faith seeking, understanding. Christianity is a way of life in Christ and it is not a pile of correct answers. For sure.
- [38:41]
A
That is wonderful and I think a perfect last sentence to end our discussion on John, thank you so very much for sharing your time and experience with us.
- [38:50]
B
Thank you, Megan. I very much enjoyed this audience.
- [38:53]
A
Thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes, remember that you can use the code MJPodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartehrman.com. Ms. Quoting Jesus will be back next week with another fantastic guest. As I mentioned earlier, I'm going to be joined by Dr. Hugo Mendez, and the title of the episode will be Church versus Universities. Who gets the New Testament Right? Thank you all and goodbye. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.