← Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
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Megan Lewis
Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman, the only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin.
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Hello everybody and welcome back to Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. Except today I am not joined by Bart, but by his colleague Dr. Mark Goodacre. Mark, thank you so much for joining me today.
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Absolute pleasure, thanks for having me.
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Megan Lewis
Of course I have a little introduction just so that everyone knows who you are and what we're going to be talking about. So for those who are unfamiliar with Mark, he is professor of Religious Studies at Duke University, North Carolina. He earned his MA MPhil and DPhil from the University of Oxford University, and his research interests include the Gospels, the Apocryphal New Testament, and the historical Jesus. Mark is also the author of four books including the Case Against Studies in Mark and Priority and the Synoptic Problem and Thomas in the the Case for Thomas's Familiarity with the Synoptics. He's well known for creating web resources on New Testament and Christian origins, including his own podcast, the NT Podcast. Mark has also acted as consultant for several TV and radio programs including the Passion, which was a BBC HBO production, and Finding Jesus for cnn. Mark is currently working on a book on John's knowledge of the Synoptic Gospels. And it is the Synoptic Gospels we're going to be talking about today. But before we get kind of into the real meats of the episode, I did want to ask how you got into the field of biblical studies.
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I think like a lot of people by accident get to be academics, you kind of stumble into it. I was that class person who I was. I was going to go into the church and so I was doing a degree in theology with a view to Becoming a minister. But at some point I abandoned, I abandoned that track and I found the bit of religious studies and theology that I just loved, I just got absolutely obsessed with, was reading the Gospels. I think the most exciting book that I'd bought. I mean this will really show what a geek I am. The most exciting book that I bought was a synopsis of the Gospels which we can probably go into a bit more detail on in due course. But the idea, there's this incredible and fascinating puzzle getting different texts alongside one another and saying who's using what and drawing lines and coloring. To me that's still even 30 plus years later is just endlessly fascinating.
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Megan Lewis
Well, that is wonderful. And yes, I know many people in New Testament, Old Testament assyriology who started out going down the church route and then at some point took a hard right. So. So what is it about the Gospels in particular that intrigue you so much?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I think it is difficult to separate it out from your upbringing. And having been brought up as a Christian, I did attend church every Sunday where the Gospels were read with two candles either side and a big cross behind. And I at one stage was carrying that cross. So that's actually hardwires you to find them important. There's no way you can do that week in, week out not think these things are important. So then when you start finding that there's some really, really interesting historical elements there. And to me it was the history that got exciting about it. When you realize that, you can say, how is this bit related to this bit? I can actually remember as a child hearing the story of the feeding of the 4,000 and I'm like, what? Isn't it the feeding of the 5,000? And then I went and looked it up and oh my goodness, there's two feedings. 1 5,000, 1 4,000. I remember as a kid thinking, well, surely just the same story with different numbers, it's got to be the same story, you know, I think it's that basic curiosity that the history of it is just so interesting.
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Megan Lewis
I think now I've used the word synoptic several times in introduction. Could you explain what that actually means? And what are academics talking about when they start talking about the synoptic Gospels?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Sure. It's one of those things that is a little bit misleading because we do talk about synopses in everyday life and usually we mean like a summary of something, but in this context it means looking at stuff together in columns. So a synopsis, the syn bit. Syn means together and optic is the eye. So it means you can look at them together. So it's a good, you know, the etymology helps. And the point is that Matthew, Mark and Luke, the first three canonical gospels can be lined up in synopsis on occasion after occasion after occasion. So John is a bit different from that. You can line John up in synopsis with Matthew, Mark and Luke sometimes, but nowhere near as often as you can in Matthew, Mark and Luke. So Matthew, Mark and Luke, they have that special quality. They are so similar, but they're also got lots of differences and that's the heart of that particular issue. So yeah, so synoptic just means you can look at them together.
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Megan Lewis
So you mentioned that as a child you noticed these similarities between the different gospels when about in your academic career, did you really get introduced to this idea of looking at them in Concord?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I remember exactly when it was because I went myself to Blackwell's in Oxford to buy the synopsis of the Gospels that was recommended on our reading sheet. And I was 18 years old and Ed Sanders now sadly departed. Ed Sanders was the professor that was teaching the course on the synoptic Gospels. A brilliant, famous, fantastic scholar. And he just got his coloring. I mean, I thought he was joking at first when he said he need coloring pencils and but so as I went back to my room and I started like coloring the synopsis stupidly, I actually colored it in the actual book and then you can't erase it. But I realized after a while photocopy at first and of course now we can do it online so it's easier. But I then learned photocopy it and then color the photocopy. But that was where it started. And I think anyone that spent time with a synopsis of the gospels and you don't have to do it in Greek, I mean I do in Greek obviously because I was learning Greek at the same time. But anybody who gets hold of an English synopsis can do this work. You can see straight away, you know, that there are so many similarities and so many differences.
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Megan Lewis
So 18, you had literally just started your undergrad degree.
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yeah, I just loved all biblical stuff. I just thought it was. And I was learning Greek as well. And I think there was a real thrill. I think loads of people have experienced this. There's a real thrill when you start reading ancient texts in the original language. And you can start doing it reasonably quickly because the biblical texts are often so familiar to us. That actually helps with the reading in the ancient language. It's also a hindrance because quite a lot of the time your brain is telling you that it says something it actually doesn't say. That's a separate issue. But yes, getting stuck into the text in the original languages is just so interesting, so much fun.
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Megan Lewis
Wonderful. Thank you. We're going to take a very brief ad break. We will be right back.
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Welcome back everyone. I'm talking to Dr. Mark Goodacre about the Synoptic Gospels. We talked a little bit about your kind of personal introduction to the idea of the synoptics, and it feels like it's been quite a long lived interest in that it has sustained you through your education and now into your career. It's quite a long lived, maybe not interest, but a long lived element of New Testament studies in general. How would you say has the academic understanding of the Synoptic Gospels changed over time?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
In some senses, studying the Synoptic Gospels is really the birth of academic critical study of the New Testament. Because when you look at the synopsis, they force you because they're so similar. They force you to ask the question why are they so similar? You do subsequently then say why they're so different as well. But why they're so similar? How can it be? You've got entire paragraphs verbatim identical. That doesn't happen by accident. That does not happen by oral reporting. If you look at, you know, sometimes people will say, oh well, you've got four Gospels and if you had four witnesses to a traffic accident, they would all have similarities and differences. No, it's not the same at all. When you look at independent reports of the same event. They do not have entire sentences and paragraphs that are identical. So we definitely looking at some kind of literary connection between them. And that actually got people really, really interested in the critical study of the New Testament, because it then relates to all sorts of other things. Like, okay, well, if there's some literary relationship, what kind of literal relationship is it? And are there some texts that we've lost? Are these texts connected to oral traditions? And then that means you ask questions about the historical Jesus, and so then you get to what really happens. So it is actually a route that takes you back to some of the really fundament questions that people are still interested in, especially the Jesus question. It always comes back to Jesus at some point, you know.
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Megan Lewis
So are the questions being asked at the moment of the synoptic gospels the same mostly as questions that were asked in the beginning, or have they changed at all?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I think they have changed because in some respects we've got more sophisticated in the way that we look at these things. We're not any more clever than we used to be. But the people studying the text are different. There's a far more diverse scholarly population, which is great. I mean, when you go back and read this, Synoptic scholars for 100 years ago, they're nearly all white men. Nearly, nearly all of them. It's really unusual. And that's not just because, you know, we're not reading. It's just that there's really just so few of them. So that has changed things. And of course, with different populations of scholars, you get different questions being brought to the text. And also our tools have got better, you know, have this wonderful thing called the tlg, which basically means you can look up words and phrases from all Greek literature. So Mark's Gospel, you've got this line in the feeding of the 5000, about 200 denarii would not buy enough food for all these people. And I thought, 200 denarii, I wonder if that ever occurs in Greek literature that we know of. So I looked it up, and that's the first mention of 200 denarii in any Greek literature that we know of. So it's just fun little things like that. Our tools. I mean, in 1924, you couldn't do that work. You could say, I can't find anywhere that says that. But it was much harder. Those sorts of things have changed. One thing that I feel has changed a bit, and I still would like to see it change some more, is that when I was first studying the synoptic problem and studying the Synoptic Gospels, they tended to be taught by means of the solution to the problem. People would say, okay, this is what happened. Matthew and Luke use Mark and they use Q. And now I'm going to show you how that happened. And okay, it's a valid way of teaching. You know, some science is taught that way. Like, you know, we've done all the experiments. This is how it works. But I like to present it as the problem first and then get to the solutions. Even though I agree that Matthew and Luke use Mark, I want to present the problem first because that's kind of empowering, and it's empowering for students in the classroom. I'll say, let's all look at a page of the synopsis together. What do you think is the most likely relationship going on here?
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Megan Lewis
Do you have a favorite example that you like to use when you're teaching?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yes, I do. I'll tell you the one I generally begin with. It's the arrest scene where Jesus gets arrested, because you've very clearly got literary agreements. But each gospel has got something distinctive. So this is the bit where the servant of the high priest has his ear cut off by one of Jesus's followers. And in Luke, he specifies it as the right ear, which is one of those lovely little Luke and details. When he talks about the man with a withered hand, he mentions it's his right hand. So it's why people used to think that Luke was a doctor, because he has these, like, interesting anatomical details. And then in Matthew's Gospel, he adds the line. He says, put your sword away, for the one who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Typical bit of Matthean poetry. You often get that same rhythm in Matthew's gospel. So I show people that just so that they can see how similar the arrest is. It's clearly exactly the same story, but then you have these little differences. And then you can also bring John in, because John is very close to the synoptics there as well. And he names the high priest's servant as Malchus, and he names the person that cuts the ear off as Peter, which is again, a typical John thing to do. He names anonymous people from the Synoptic gospels all the time. Like Judas suddenly pops up, you know, where it's an anonymous person in the other gospels and so on. So that's definitely one of my favorites. I also always do John the Baptist with them, because that's right at the beginning. There's a joy about saying on the very first page of Mark's Gospel, you can start doing your synoptic work and say, what's going on here? Why are Matthew and Luke so similar? And why have they added all this stuff that's not in Mark? So John the Baptist is. Is always a really great one to do as well. But you can open the synopsis anywhere and find interesting stuff.
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Megan Lewis
Are your students surprised by all of these similarities? Or typically, is it something that they've come across before they get to your classroom?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I would say that those who've had some kind of church background, Christian background, are just as surprised as those that haven't. Because in general, in churches, I mean, gosh, this is a sweeping statement, isn't it? But in general, in churches, people don't teach things like the synoptics. They might just happen to say in a sermon, oh, you can also find this story in, you know, in Matthew's Gospel if you're reading it from Mark and so on. But they don't really analyze those similarities and differences. So in my experience, it's generally surprising. People are quite surprised. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, look, this is really similar. Oh, yeah. Oh, and that's really different. I wonder why that's there. And so you can actually do source criticism. You can do synoptic criticism on day one just by showing them a synopsis. And I do the same thing. My teacher, Ed Sanders, didn't I get them to bring their colored pencils to the classroom, or if they want to, they can do it on the. I mean, you can color very nicely on the. Your laptop and whatnot these days as well. So I let them do that if they want to.
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Megan Lewis
Are there any similarities that you'd like to pull out that people are, like, completely unaware of or just haven't noticed before?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I'll tell you what, it's probably easier. And although we're talking about the synoptic gospels, I am writing a book on John at the moment. And I find that because people are so separated John off from the synoptics. I mean, John is different, but they've so separated John off that they've almost overstated it. Like, you know, it's like we believe our own propaganda sometimes too much. And so I find that quite often when I pull John alongside the synoptics, people, oh, gosh, it's similar. You get the other kind of surprise. Like they're expecting to see John being really, really, really, really different. And then, oh, yeah, that is quite similar. So I just mentioned the example of the arrest, but that the story of doubting Thomas, which is one of the Most. John, chapter 20 is one of those characteristic Johannine stories. It gone into the culture. We talk about doubting Thomases and so on, but you can put that alongside Luke 24 and you can see the disciples there doubting. It's not Thomas, but you see the disciples doubting. Some of the sentences are exactly the same. You know, you think, oh, and I find I get a surprise a lot from people when I show them that. So, yeah, I would say that's become one of the bigger surprises because we have so stressed that John's different, that, you know, it's one of the things where we've actually gone too far in that direction and now we have to pull it back again.
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Megan Lewis
You know, we've spoken quite a bit about the similarities that we see with the Synoptics also bringing in John. What kinds of differences do you find that people are unaware of or surprised by?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
I think the classic go to is the birth narratives. So Matthew and Luke both have a birth narrative. Mark just goes straight in at John the Baptist, like launches straight. Jesus is already fully grown adult. But Matthew and Luke both have two chapters worth of birth stories. Luke has birth story of John the Baptist and Jesus, and Matthew has the birth story of just Jesus. And because most people, whether they've come from a kind of Christian background or not, still have some idea about what Christmas is and ideas of nativity and magi and shepherds, you know, you just have to be in Western culture and you, you learn some of these tropes and you've seen Christmas cards and you've seen pageants and so on. I find that when you do the exercise of students of now go and show me what is just in Matthew and what's just in Luke and think, oh gosh, so the shepherds are only in Luke, the magi only in Matthew. Jesus begins life well in both. He's born in Bethlehem. But Mary seems to be living in Nazareth in Luke, whereas they seem to be living in Bethlehem in Matthew. You get them to start doing like the similarities and differences and then people find they realize that the Christmas that we know in Western culture is this marvellous harmonization of Matthew and Luke. It's like a retelling of the story that we've done on our own. People get really shocked because they're really different Matthew's and Luke's birth narratives. It's like, I mean, I think Luke knew Matthew, but I mean, but clearly if he did, he's thinking, I'm going to do something completely different here, you know, I'm just going to go my own way. I'm going to tell it. One thing he does, for example, Luke seems to tell it from Mary's perspective, whereas Matthew's more typical, you know, kind of sexist guy of the day, who just tells it from Joseph's perspective, doesn't even think about Mary. I mean, Luke's thoroughly sexist as well, don't get me wrong. But I mean, but he does tell this story from Mary's perspective. So that's kind of fascinating as well. It invites you to harmonize it, which is why people have done across the centuries, but at the same time disentangling it is quite fun. So, yeah, that's an absolute go to the different nativity stories.
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Megan Lewis
It's a very fun one to do because growing up, I imagine, quite similarly to you. In the UK we did nativity plays every year at school and every school trip. Styles knew certainly back then that you have angels, you have shepherds, you have wise men, you have some sheep scattered around. And I was definitely a full grown adult before I actually sat down, read them individually and realized, hang on, this is not quite how I anticipated or how I thought the story went.
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yes, absolutely.
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Megan Lewis
And then it's just not present in two of the other gospels. So do you encounter misconceptions about what the synoptic Gospels are and how they relate to one another?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yes, I mean, I think one of the most pervasive ones is that people just feel that there's a sort of intuition that people have that you actually have to resist, which is to imagine that they must be separate, independent reports of the same stuff. And people just find that very easy to intuit because we're used to it from our culture that, you know, you pick up Washington Post and New York Times looking at a particular event. And in general, they've not looked at each other's, they've not looked at each other's coverage. And it'll be lots of the same topics and everything, but you will not find it in identical language except where they're quoting somebody. So I think people just think that that is most likely to be what the Gospels are when you realize that there's four different ones. And it starts off like that because the infancy narratives are so different in Matthew and Luke, you know, you can imagine those being written independently of one another. But what I think is really important is actually to sit and look at the bits that are similar because some bits and you're not just talking about like going on for Entire sentences. You would be done for plagiarism if you did that in your class. But it's not just that. It's sometimes like really rare words or strange expressions. There's a great bit in the story of the paralyzed man. Matthew, Mark and Luke all have the line, in order that you may know that the Son of man has authority on the earth to forgive sins, comma, he says to the paralytic. And actually the first bit, there is actually an unfinished sentence. And they've all three got the unfinished sentence in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on the earth to forgive sins. And it doesn't say it. Then he just turns to the paralyzed man and says, get up and walk. So that just doesn't happen by oral tradition or by coincidence. That's because someone's copying off somebody else. That's the thing that I really do suggest of press at. And there are still people occasionally that will say, oh, maybe the Synoptic Gospels are independent of one another. But I don't find it plausible myself. It's a very, very difficult argument to make because if you could make that argument, then plagiarists would just walk free all the time.
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Megan Lewis
Now you're going to be teaching a whole 16 lesson course on the Synoptic Gospels as part of the Biblical Studies Academy. Could you give us some information about what kinds of things you're going to be covering in those lessons?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Sure. I mean, a lot of it is going to be some of the same things that we've talked about here. So actually digging down into some of those similarities and differences. So having a look, why is Luke's birth narrative so different from Matthew's? But then also looking at bits that are really similar. So looking at the crucifixion, for example, why the crucifixion narratives? So similar key points, but also so different. So one thing will be just like really digging into the text. I find that there's no point in studying the Synoptic Gospels or studying anything unless you really get the joy of looking at primary text, like engaging in the primary materials. Sometimes people go straight to the secondary literature. And let's face the second literature is actually often a bit more boring than actually being in the primary text. So that's the number one thing is actually spending a bit of time with the text, looking at them in synopsis, but then also using that to answer key question. Well, to ask questions first and then to answer questions about why they look like they do. So huge question, huge question. And it begins with the letter Q. I mean, is the question of Q. There's lots of scholars. Barthes, for example, is a big. It's one of the things that both Bart and I agree on lots of things, but we don't agree on existence of Q. I think that Q never existed. I think it's a figment of the scholarly imagination. But loads and loads of scholars do believe in Q. So they explain a lot of Matthew's and Luke's similarities on the grounds that they both had access to a common source, which we call Q. Because it's been lost, if it ever existed. I don't think ever existed. So it's not lost, it's just never existed. But if it did, it's been lost. And so we call it Q, which stands for the German word kvelo, which means source. And so we'll look into that little controversial thing there. But we'll also look at one or two other things, like, do Matthew and Luke know Mark's Gospel? I personally think that they do look at the. I mentioned the crucifixion narratives, but also the resurrection stories. Fascinating similarities and differences there. Very short account in Mark, expanded in Matthew and then really expanded in Luke. So why are they so different? That's a really fun one. So lots of it will be, why so similar? Why so different? And then really digging as well into things like the dates of the Gospels. Do other gospels, Some people date them really early. I don't. I date them later in the first century, even possibly into early second century. But some people think that they're much earlier. So how do we know? And also who wrote them? That's a little taste of some of the things we'll be looking at.
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Megan Lewis
It sounds absolutely fascinating. I don't want you to give away too much because I think people should actually go and attend. And obviously this is a short podcast, as opposed to 16 whole classes. When you're looking at things like transmission and the circulation of texts, how do you go about determining whether or not these different authors had access to what, another's work?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question because of course, we don't have. We don't have any of the autographs. This is one of the point that points that Bart has made very successfully and has really helped people to process is we don't have autographs of any of these texts. So what we're working with are reconstructions, scholarly reconstructions of what we think is the best, you know, kind of approximation to what Mark's Gospel might have looked like, and Matthew's gospel might have looked like, and so on. But beyond that question, there's then the issue of wealth. Did one author have access to another author's work? That's more the bit where I'm interested in. And with that stuff, there's a range of things. I mean, I like to think if you're trying to test to see if one author knows another author's work, one of the best ways of doing that is to say, well, are there any of the really distinctive expressions of the one author found in the other? I mean, I'll give a really simple example. Matthew, often when he's editing Mark, assuming that he's editing Mark, he uses a particular Greek word which means later. And Mark never uses that word. And Matthew used it in a very particular way. And on one occasion in the question from the Sadducees about the resurrection, Luke uses that word in exactly the same place that Matthew does. So I say, well, I think that, you know, that might be just a little sign of one particular author's characteristic finding its way into another gospel. So that's one way you do it, or one way I and do it. And the reason that scholars argue about these things is. And people do say this, they say, maybe it's just coincidence. Maybe just. Just thought it was a good word to use on that one occasion. Maybe you did. You know, I mean, you will never have definitive proof of this thing. And unless, you know, we find a signed confession from Luke about his sources or find his. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you find it. We find his bibliography or something. But, you know, I mean, and I suppose that's the adventure. And in a way, the more different that the Gospels get, when you look at the real differences, that's when you start saying, gosh, well, is this even the same version of that? Take one of my favorite examples. Matthew and Mark both have a story of a woman that comes and anoints Jesus in advance for his burial. And in Luke's Gospel, there's a story of an anointing, but it's much earlier in the gospel, and it still happens in a guy called Simon's house. But now he's Simon the Pharisee, not Simon the leprosy. Her. She no longer anoints Jesus's head, she anoints his feet. And there's no connection with Jesus's death. And so some people say it's just a different story. It's just a completely different story. You know, ignore it, nothing to see here kind of thing. But then others, that Say, yeah, but it's so similar.
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Megan Lewis
Why?
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Dr. Mark Goodacre
So that's why scholars argue about this stuff. Because, you know, some people just say, I just do not believe that Luke has composed that story on the basis of the Markan story. And other people will say, oh, yeah, but he has, and there's lots of that. And sometimes it gets really interesting, not just historically, but theologically, because if you get to something like, say, the eucharistic traditions, like where Jesus gives the words of institution that people use in churches to this day, there's a bit in Matthew where it says he introduces the term for the forgiveness of sins. That's just in Matthew. Now, there will be places in the world at the moment, this very moment, are saying forgiveness of sins. Matthew might just have added that just sitting there, you know, while he's composing his gospel, you know, but he might not. So sometimes they're theologically important because you have to say, well, is that. And also, if it is just something that came from Matthew's mind, does that matter? For some people, it really does matter. They wanted Jesus to have said it. I mean, I suppose this is where we get to misquoting Jesus, isn't it? Is it. Is that a case of misquoting Jesus? And does it matter? I think it does matter and I think it's really, really interesting. But, yeah, so I suppose there are lots of examples like that where we have synoptic variation which does amount to being, quoting and misquoting Jesus.
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Megan Lewis
When you're looking at these kinds of variations in specific, like personal uses of words being different to how other people may use them, is it possible at all to use online resources, collections of other texts from similar time periods to say this is a geographical variation or this is something specific to a genre? So we think Marx may be borrowing from Greek poetry or something similar.
- [29:40]
Dr. Mark Goodacre
Yeah, no, very much so. And in fact, one of the things that I think is always just so exciting about studying the Gospels is that, you know, they're part of a huge body that we do have access to of Greco Roman literature, and sometimes they're more Greek than they are, are Jewish. And what I mean by that is I have to be careful how I make this point. But let me illustrate it. I just mentioned the 200 denarii in Mark. Now, the denarius is a kind of Roman coin, and we can look at the archaeology. How many denarii are found in Galilee and Judea? Very, very few. Really Few. So does the fact that Mark keeps, and not just Mark, but Matthew and Luke and John all do it as well. They keep saying denaria. There's lots of references to denarii. Does that mean that they're actually much more part of that kind of Roman political, social world, that they go, you know, instinctively to saying denarii rather than saying something that you would very quickly read as Galilean or Judean money? So little things like that. So, yes, we have loads of resources where we can actually try and contextualize the Gospels and ask those key questions about archaeology, other texts. Yes, absolutely. I mean, some people think that Mark knew Homer really well and that you can see aspects of Homer in Mark's Gospel. And there's no question whatsoever that all three Synoptic gospels are steeped in the Hebrew Bible. I mean, over and over again you get, you know, as it was written, Isaiah keeps getting mentioned, Moses has mentioned Jeremiah. I mean, you know, you constantly get these references. So there's no question that even if they are, are part of, you know, a kind of Greco Roman world, writing in Greek and, you know, talking about kind of monetary amounts in, you know, with a kind of Romanish background, at the same time, they are utterly steeped in the Hebrew Bible. And what's more, in Matthew's Gospel, lots and lots of fascinating details of Jewish life in the first century that map out, you know, you can find references to the same stuff, you know, elsewhere. And that's one thing actually with do in, in the courses, I want to talk a little bit about how Matthew's Gospel seems to know all these interesting little minutiae that actually do turn up in Jewish sources from the period.
- [32:04]
Megan Lewis
Fascinating. And I didn't appreciate this really until I started doing the podcast with Bart. How much they really straddle cultural worlds and represents so many different entities and stakeholders and yeah, very much so in history through. So I have a couple more questions and then we will give everyone details about the course and we'll finish up. My second to last question. Do you have any recommendations for synoptic material for at home study for people who are interested and want to learn some more?
- [32:37]
Dr. Mark Goodacre
20 or so years ago, I wrote a little introduction to the Synoptic Gospels which I called the Synoptic A Way through the Maze. And I like using the analogy, the image of walking through a maze because it is a puzzle. And I, you know, I try and take the reader by the hand and show them things. And I made that available entirely online for free. So that's something that people can dig into and, and if you just Google my name and the synoptic problem away through the maze, you'll, you'll find it. But if not, I have a website, markgoodacre.org you'll find it there. So that's like. And that points to other good resources and it lists, for example, one or two synopses of the Gospels. We talked about that, that. But also on the website I have one or two sample synopses and I'll be making more of those available as well for the course. Like just so that people, you know, that don't have access to a printed synopsis, it won't be the end of the world. I'll provide once I've composed myself. Like I've made lots and lots of. So I, I, if I get bored, I just sit down and just do a nice new synopsis. It's so much fun to do because you, every time you put one together, you see fresh things you haven't seen before. So. Yeah, so, so we'll do that as well. But that might be, that's hopefully a good starting point.
- [33:46]
Megan Lewis
No, no, I have actually looked through that and I think that's an excellent recommendation. And my final question, why do you think it's important to offer these kinds of academically minded courses outside the university setting?
- [34:00]
Dr. Mark Goodacre
Well, in my experience, people really are interested in this material. I mean, one of the things that has genuinely surprised me about my podcast, I mean, I've been doing it for 15 years and I have, I haven't really had as much time recently to do it as I would have liked. I keep saying I'm going to get better, I'm going to get better. But one of the things that, because the episodes are all still out there, I find all the time I get emails from people and comments and almost always positive, occasionally you get something negative, but almost always positive. And just saying, oh, I listened to this while one guy, he said to me, oh, I listen to this while I'm driving my truck. And he said the idea that I can actually be doing some studying while I'm driving down the highway. And I found the vast majority of the feedback I get, I don't know, I assume it's probably similar for Bart as well. The vast majority of feedback that I get is from people who are outside the academy who are really, really excited about having access to good academic resources. And the thing is, what's the point of us investing broadly in university education unless it breaks up beyond the walls of the university? Like in England we talk about extramural courses, which was always like outside the walls of the university. And that should always be, always be a key academic mission in my opinion. So. So yeah, I mean I just see it as an element in that.
- [35:26]
Megan Lewis
I've been podcasting for not quite as long as you seven years now and I have had a very similar experience. People are genuinely interested. I do a seriology, but people are genuinely interested in all of the New Testament stuff that Barth puts out. And it's very difficult, I think for people who have not been through academia to know what sources they can trust and where they can go for reliable information. And I think doing this kind of thing really helps fill a need. And it's just so interesting. It's really fascinating stuff.
- [35:57]
Dr. Mark Goodacre
No, absolutely. And I think that's right because when I've had conversations with people that use lots of online resources to kind of catch up on academia, a lot of time is don't have to agree with everything, but it's knowing that it's good material, it's reputable material because it's always been in a way we're beyond the wild west stage of the Internet. But there is still that issue of where do I find good material, where do I find reliable material? So I think that's, you know, there is a first for that.
- [36:26]
Megan Lewis
I agree. And if people are interested in learning more about the Synoptic Gospels, Mark's course is, as I've said, 16 lessons and it's going to start at the week of October 7th and run through the middle of December. The cost is $249. Or you can sign up for a 14 day free trial and a special introductory offer of $39.95. And that is part of the brand new Biblical Studies Academy which is going to be offering a minimum of three university level courses as well as access to a community of like minded Bible enthusiasts. So you've got a space to discuss, discuss the courses that you're doing and participate in some fun community events you can learn more about specifically Mark's synoptic class@barterman.com MML that is Matthew, Mark and Luke MML so you can remember and you can use the code mjpodcast at checkout for an additional discount on your first month of the Bible Academy. Mark, thank you again for joining me today. This was absolutely fascinating.
- [37:25]
Dr. Mark Goodacre
Thank you Megan. It's been great chatting to you. I've really enjoyed it.
- [37:28]
Megan Lewis
Excellent. And audience, thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Remember, you can use the code njpodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.barterman.com and also the synoptics class, that's Bart ehrman.com MML misquoting Jesus and Bart will be back next week and we're going to be exploring the so called Acts of Pilate. So please join us then. Thank you everybody and goodbye. Bye.
- [38:01]
This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Erman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.