← Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
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A
When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want, like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot. And turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. Growing up in the Anglican Church in rural Britain, I wasn't aware at all of the term born again Christian. It wasn't really until I moved to the US in my early 20s that I really started to understand what it meant. Today on Misquoting Jesus, we're talking about what this term means. How a born again Christian considers themselves different to other Christians and what Jesus would have thought about the whole thing. As a former born again Christian, Dr. Bart Ehrman is here to explain all of this and more. Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Ms. Quoting Jesus. Bart, how are you doing today?
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B
Yeah, I'm doing well. I've got, I've got one of these colds that people are getting like half of my students and that's probably why I'm getting it. But it's one of these kind of colds that lingers on forever and ever. But actually I feel okay about it. So it's not, not horrible. How about you, you got the cold yet?
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A
Not yet, not yet. Thankfully my neighbors are all down with stomach flu so we're keeping our distance. I messaged her this morning and said, can we have a play date tomorrow because all the kids are off school. And she said, Megan, you do not want what is currently going around our family. So we're postponing that one.
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B
Okay. Yeah. Right.
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A
We don't get it.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Best approach. Yeah. Okay, good. Okay, good luck.
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A
Thank you. Now then, today on Misquoting Jesus, we're going to be talking about what exactly a born again Christian is, which is interesting because I'm still not 100% sure that I know. So I'm going to be learning something as well. Later in the show we also have information on a brand new course, the rise and Fall of Biblical Israel. The books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. That's going to be taken by Dr. Jacob Wright who is A professor of Hebrew Bible at Emory University. And in today's bonus segment, Bart is going to be tackling more listeners questions. So please stay with us for all of that fantastic stuff. Before any of that fantastic stuff, we have an even more fantastic conversation. So Bart, I want to open by asking if you could tell us a little bit about your experience with being born again.
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B
Yeah, right. So this is, it was a very important kind of event in my life and I, you know, I'd been raised in the Episcopal Church, which is, you know, our American version of your Anglican church over there. And I was very active in the church as a kid. I was confirmed in the church and became an altar boy as soon as they let me. And I was an altar boy all the way through high school, an acolyte and you know, so every week I was, you know, saying the prayers and singing the hymns and confessing my sins and taking, taking communion, taking the Eucharist. And so I was active in the church apart from Sundays. I wasn't particularly Christian. I was, you know, I was a kid and like, know like most kids. And so when I was in high school, I started, I guess maybe my second year in high school, my sophomore year, I started going to a, a youth group that was not connected with the church. It's called Campus Life, full names, Campus Life, Youth for Christ. And I think a lot more people today are familiar with Young Life, which is another kind of group like that where they, they have weekly, me, the Campus Life group had weekly meetings and there were social events and there were fun things doing, but they were Christian based. And so there was a leader of this group who was a very charismatic personality who not only would put on like fun events, social events once a week where we do something kind of fun and interesting and there'd be like 20, 40 kids there, many of whom I knew. And but he would also give this kind of lesson at the end of it, this, this kind of urging people to consider being born again and that that was the only way to get to heaven if you wanted to, if you wanted to be right with God and go to heaven, then you had to ask Jesus into your heart and be born again. And this was news to me. But yeah, so after a while I started listening to this and taking it seriously.
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A
So I've heard that phrase, asking Jesus into your heart. My husband was an evangelical Christian as well. He's talked about this. I'm still not entirely sure what it means. Do you just like sit down and say, jesus, please come into my heart? Or is it more complex than that?
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B
No, no, that's pretty much it. I mean, so. So that. That little bit of it, that, that bit about asking Jesus into your heart is one way that people put it. And it's. It's based on the Book of Revelation, chapter three, where Jesus, writing one of the churches of Asia Minor, tells this church that, behold, I stand at the door and knock. Everyone who opens the door to me, I will come into him and sup with him and he with me. I think that sounds like the King James Version I memorized way back when. And so Jesus is knocking at the door. And the idea is that if you let him into your heart, then he'll be a serious part of your life. But if you don't let him in, if you don't ask him in, it won't happen. And so that's where asking Jesus into your heart comes into. And of course, in the Book of Revelation, it's got nothing to do with that. In the book, Book of Revelation, it is dealing with a church situation where it's dealing with a particular church that isn't doing very well, and Jesus saying, look, you got to bring me back into your midst because you're all just messing up here. So it isn't about the personal mystical experience of asking Jesus into your heart that evangelical Christians for a long time were really big on.
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A
Is there any other way that you can kind of go through this process of letting Jesus explicitly into your life?
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B
Yeah, the other way that I think maybe became more common and kind of. Maybe less. Less kind of, sort of personalized and. And mystical was that we would talk about asking Christ to be your Lord and Savior, I think, on the assumption that he wasn't your Lord and Savior unless you committed yourself to Him. So you commit yourself to Christ as your Lord and Savior. And even though that's a different kind of metaphor, it was understood to be the same kind of thing, asking Jesus into your life. In both cases, it's expressing this personal desire, an individual, personal desire to be saved by Christ, because otherwise you aren't saved. So Christ provided salvation by dying on the cross and being raised from the dead. But it's like a gift that's been offered to you. If somebody offers you a gift, you have to accept it. And if you don't accept it, you don't get the gift. And so it was that you've got a role to play, too. It's not that you're earning your salvation or anything like that, but you're accepting a gift and so you personally. Each person has to accept the gift. If they don't accept the gift, then they're doomed.
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A
Is this what most evangelical groups are talking about when they use the term born again? Or is there any kind of variation or nuance depending on which group you're a member of?
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B
Well, you know, I don't really, you know, evangelical Christianity has changed so much from what it was when I was an evangelical in the 70s, especially in the 70s, you know, these days, when I became an evangelical, you know, that was it. You know, you be born again and then you learn about the Bible, you know, and it's all about mastering the Bible because the Bible is God's revelation to you. And you learn all the what to believe about God. You've got to believe the right things. And, and these days, my sense is that evangelicals are really not about that so much. They're really about. They're about social issues, about social agendas and political issues and, and that it's more of a kind of a cultural movement than in some ways, I mean, they identify as, you know, as, as people who've had these experiences, but it's not what they're really focused on. But I do, I do think that, Evan, you still think you've got to make a personal commitment to Christ as your Lord and savior, and if you do that, it turns your life around. And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't know that there are differences among evangelicals in, in this particular thing. My, my experience, evangelical, you know, evangelical comes from the word evangelism or vice versa. The, the, the word evangelism comes from the Greek word you angelion, which means good news. It's. And so the gospels are you Angelia. Gospels of young Gallion. And so the idea is that these are people who preach the good news. And so being an evangelical means you try to convert people to your way of faith because you think that's the way of salvation. And so there are a range of ways of doing that. But this born again experience, as I understand it historically, has been principally an American thing. So I'm not sure. So in England, you know, right now the church, the Anglican church, is suffering a lot of losses in terms of congregations and things, but the part of it that is doing the best is the evangelical branch of the Anglican Church. And I just, I just don't know whether they're. They, they're, they're focusing on being born again or not. They seem again to be focusing on more kind of a certain kind of Spirituality as it's manifest and social issues.
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A
Thank you. When we consider being born again, how does that differ from being baptized? Because I went through baptism. I went through. I don't remember my baptism. I was a baby, but I, I went through confirmation. I've seen people get baptized as adults, and my understanding has always been that this is kind of the, the way that, that some groups forge that connection with God and forge that commitment. Is being born again different from this or is it just kind of a different way of doing the same thing?
- [10:50]
B
No, it's different. So you, you know, when in the evangelical circles that I was, I was raised in, after I had this experience as, you know, as a teenager, being baptized had no relevance to it because, you know, we had all been baptized as infants. But you can't ask Christ to be your Lord and Savior when you're an infant, you know, and you can't ask Christ in your heart when you're an infant. And so these, this, this form of evangelicalism very much preached adult baptism for people who had already made a commitment to Christ. And so it was more like what happens in Baptist churches. In Baptist churches, the, the idea of baptism is that the, the act of baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality, and that it shows, it's like a way of demonstrating that you've been cleansed, cleansed of your sins. But that means you've made a special particular individual commitment to Christ in order to have him as a part of your life, as your Lord. And the baptism is a reflection of that. So nothing actually happens at baptism in this kind of Protestant evangelicalism, except for an expression of what's happened inside of you. But there's a wide range of interpretations of baptism in the modern world, and most denominations baptized infants, but for a range of reasons. I mean, in the Catholic Church, a child has to be baptized to get rid of original sin. It cleanses them of their original sin, because without that, you can't be forgiven of your other sins. So you have to get rid of the original sin. In, say, the Presbyterian Church, baptism replaces what happened in the realm of Judaism with circumcision. And so baptism is the new circumcision for Christians where you join the community, the community of faith by being baptized. And that's probably more the kind of thing that you're thinking about with your Anglican experiences. You're joining the people of God now and you're in the church, but that's not being born again. Born again is a very individualized, personal experience where you make a personal commitment to Christ as your Lord and Savior.
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A
So why is is being born again so important for evangelical Christians?
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B
Well, you know, it actually goes back. They base it on other biblical texts, and it's not, not so much Revelation 3:16, although that is invoked for asking Jesus into your heart. But there are other Evan. There are other texts that indicate you need to have a new life in Christ in order to, to be right with God. And if you're not right with God in evangelical circles, it means you're going to go to hell. So you know, when you die, your soul is going to go either to heaven or hell. And it's based on, to some extent on how you live. But I mean, it's really, it's based on Christ and Christ's death. But you have to accept it. And when you do, then it changes you. And so already. So our first Christian author, Paul, he doesn't use the phrase born again, but, but he does in 2 Corinthians. So what is it? 2 Corinthians 5:17, Paul says that if anyone is in Christ, they are a new creature. The old things have passed away and all things have become new. And so you have kind of a regeneration. You become a new being. Now you're a being who is related to God and, and is committed to God versus what, whatever you were before.
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A
So if it's not a phrase that, that Paul uses, where does the term born again come from?
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B
So you know when, back in the day, when, like 20 years ago at baseball games, like at the World Series, you'd always see people behind home plate holding up a Bible verse. They ended up stopping that. But then somebody have a placard, and they have a placard and one of the Bible verses, they don't, they wouldn't say what the Bible verse was. It would just be. It'd be like John chapter 2, John 3:16, or John 3:16 or John 3:3. And John 3:3 is the one. John 3:3. And John. Well, John 3:3. So John 3:3 so is where Barnigan comes from. And it's a very interesting text that turns out to be complicated in ways that nobody would suspect. So I never suspected the John 3:16. In John chapter 3, we have an account of Jesus having a conversation with a rabbi named Nicodemus, who is a teacher of the Jews, who is said to be a leader of the Jews, who comes up to Jesus and he. And he just makes a statement. And he says, because Jesus has been doing miraculous signs, he's turned the water into wine for Example. And Nicodemus out of the blue, comes up to Jesus and says that we know no one can do these kinds of signs unless God is with him. And so you know, who else could do miracles like this? You must have God with you. So he's not asking anything, he's just kind of saying it. And it's not clear what his point, why he's saying it. But, but Jesus uses it as an opportunity. And Jesus then replies to him in John, chapter three, verse three. So he says, nobody can do this unless God is with him. And Jesus says, you must be born again in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. And Nicodemus is puzzled. He says, so how, how is it possible for a person who's gone. Gotten old to crawl back into his mother's womb and be born again? And Jesus. And Jesus goes on to explain that he doesn't mean that. He means that you have to be born of the, of water and spirit if you want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, you have to be born of water and spirit. You've got to be born again. And so he repeats it. And so he, He. So he kind. In John, Jesus kind of says the same thing in different words a number of times during a number of his. Number of his speeches. And that's what happens in this case. And so that's where it comes again, comes from that you've got to have a second birth. You got to be born. Not, not just physically, but you have to be born phys. You have to be born spiritually. And so you've had a physical birth, you've been born from your mother, but to enter the kingdom of heaven, you have to have a heavenly birth. You've got to be born again.
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A
What complications are there in this?
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B
Well, it sounds pretty straightforward. And until you actually learn Greek, then all of a sudden, oh, my God, this is.
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A
Isn't that always the way?
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B
I, I thought this was easy. This is not easy. And so the deal is that when Jesus says, you must be born again, the word again is a difficult word in Greek. It's not that difficult. It just means different things in different contexts. So the word is anothen, you must be born anothen. And the word anothen, which sometimes gets translated again, or anew, you must be born anew, or again. That word can mean a second time, but it can also mean from above. You must be born from above. And the Gospel of John uses the word several times, and whenever he uses it, it clearly means from above elsewhere. And it's the more common designation of the word above, it can mean again. But so Jesus says, you must be born from above. But when he says that in, when he says it in the Greek, in the chapter three, verse three in Greek, he says that from above, Nicodemus misunderstands anothan to mean again. And so that's why he says, well, how can I crawl back into my mother's womb? And then Jesus corrects him. No, I'm not saying you have to get back in your mother's womb. You don't have to be born a second time. You have to be born from heaven. The Spirit is the one who you need the spiritual birth in addition to the earthly birth. And so the conversation with Nicodemus is predicated on a double entende, on a double meaning of a word. So where Jesus says something and Nicodemus thinks he understands, but he shows he doesn't understand, so Jesus corrects him and that's what leads into the conversation that follows, which is about how you have to have a heavenly birth and not, not just an earthly birth. And so it's a little bit more complicated.
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A
Is that the only complicating factor here or there? There are other things going on as well.
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B
Well, there's something else going on which is pretty interesting. This is the part people wouldn't know about probably because in many Bibles you'll have a footnote if it says again or if it says a new. There'll be a footnote, footnote, say, or from above. And so that's fine. The problem is that this word anothen is a Greek word that can mean both things. But Jesus at the time is in Jerusalem. And Jesus was an Aramaic speaking Jew. Nicodemus is a Jew living in Jerusalem where the, the native language is Aramaic. They'd be speaking Aramaic. So the account, you know, John is written in Greek, of course, because it's a Greek book, but the conversation would have been in Aramaic. And the problem is that this Greek word that means two things, either again or from above. The Aramaic word for from above does not have the double meaning, but the conversation is predicated on the double meaning. So it doesn't work because if they're talking in Aramaic, the whole conversation doesn't work. That shows that there's a problem here with like, does this actually happen? How does. It doesn't make sense in Aramaic. And so, so that, yeah, so that's an interesting part of it. It's kind of a side note. But, but, but it, but it means that this comes from the author of John or from a Greek speaker, not from Jesus and Nicodemus.
- [21:08]
A
It's a side note, but if you're trying to argue that everything goes back to Jesus and this demonstrably at least this conversation, the concept may be in other places, but this conversation probably doesn't.
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B
So that's, and the phrase, and the phrase born again, it's, you know, you do get, you do get phrases in the New Testament about being like regeneration for example. You know, it's just the similar concept. But the friend, you know, being born again, you got to be born again or you'll never go to heaven. You know, that's, that's, that's from this verse from Jesus lips that he almost certainly didn't say.
- [21:41]
A
We are going to take a very brief break, but we'll be back in a couple of minutes to ask who needs to be born again and other fantastic questions. Most scholars agree that the Gospel of Mark was the earliest gospel written and that it offers the most historically accurate depiction of Jesus among all of the gospels. But scholars don't stop there. They also seek answers to pressing questions such as whether Mark had first hand knowledge of Jesus life or if most of his information was second, third or fourth hand, or if perhaps he was just making things up. Scholars also ask whether later copyists of Mark's gospel changed what he said to create a different story. And have any of those changes led readers away from Mark's original message? Join Dr. Bart Ehrman in an online course, Jesus the Secret Messiah Revealing the Mysteries of the Gospel of Mark and uncover the fascinating answers to these questions. In this eight lecture course, you'll also discover why Mark shrouds Jesus true identity in his Gospel. Was this a true historical depiction of his followers view of Jesus during his ministry? Or is this simply part of Mark's literary agenda? Find out today by visiting barterman.com mark and as always, please use the code mjpodcast for a special discount. So before the break, Bart, you were explaining where the idea of being born again comes from or at least where evangelicals are drawing from in the Bible when they talk about it. When do we see the concept or the idea coming into modern Christian practices? Or is it something that has always been there?
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B
Well, I'd say it's part of the modern evangelical movement. I'm not sure when like the whole idea of born again actually creeps in, but it is safe to say that throughout most of Christian history, from basically the second century all the way up to the Reformation. So in the 16th century. So for all of those centuries, it was simply assumed that if you were born into a Christian family and you went to a Christian church, which everybody did, that you were Christian. And being right with God meant, you know, being obedient to God and doing the things that he wanted you to do and, you know, obviously believing in Christ, but you didn't come to believe in Christ. You know, I mean, you were born that way. And in a number of Christian churches today, it's still that way. But in the evangelical movement there was an idea that, no, you have to have a personal commitment. These kinds of evangelical things start back in the 19th century where the idea was that you had to kind of escape your wretched past and you needed to repent and make an individual decision. And that becomes a big thing in 19th century evangelicalism. And it's continued down till today, of course, so that most evangelicals agree, yes, being born into a Christian family doesn't make you right with God. And going to church doesn't make you right. Right with God. Even reading the Bible doesn't make you right with God. You've got to make a personal decision. And so this personal decision thing, I mean, in part it's this, this whole thing in the, in modernity where it's, everything is like individualized rather than like being a social group kind of oriented. And so instead of being community oriented, evangelical Christianity became kind of individualized kind of personal thing. And that's, and that it's all part of that movement. So, so anyway, so that, that, that's, that's where it is. And so that's why you start getting things like evangelistic rallies and stuff in the 19th century, like tent meetings and things where, where people have to, you know, people have been going to church, they've been going to their Anglican church their whole lives, but you have these, these preacher who, preachers who are saying, no, you gotta, you know, you gotta make a commitment. You got to come forward and commit yourself to Christ.
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A
So from what you, you've said, I assume that someone with this worldview would say that everybody needs to be born again in order to go to heaven to be cleansed of their sins. You can't just kind of live a good life, be a practical Christian. You actually have to make that personal commitment.
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B
That's right. So when I was an evangelical, we were absolutely convinced that people of other Christian denominations could not be saved unless they had this kind of a born again experience. We believe that pastors, you know, Presbyterian pastors, Episcopalian pastors, Roman Catholics, Forget it. They weren't saved. Greek Orthodox. Oh my God, no. You've got to make this personal commitment. And so it's all about your personal relationship with God. And that is certainly something that has continued on in the evangelical movement. That is, it is about your personal relationship with God. And that's what really matters to God. The one on one thing. And you know, most, most Christian communities throughout the world, this seems strange to people in the South. My students in the south would be, would be surprised to hear that in most, most communities in the world, it's not that way at all. I mean, the Roman Catholic Church, you know, you're born into the church, you're baptized in the church, you're confirmed in the church, you're in the church. And you know, if you're in the church, well, okay, you're in the church. And so. But in evangelicals, it's an individual thing. You got to make a commitment. Commitment.
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A
So once you've made that commitment, can you lose salvation? Or like, once you've done it, are you just now set for life?
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B
Well, it depends which evangelicals you talk to. There are a lot of theologies around this. So a lot of it has to do with how much evangelicals, which evangelicals have been more influenced by Calvinist theology. John Calvin during the Reformation developed theological views that are amenable to many evangelicals as good Protestant Bible believing people. And within Calvinism, there's this idea. For one thing, there's an idea of predestination, that it happens because you're predestined, which creates problems really, because if you say you have to make a choice, but it's been predestined, how does it work that it's a choice? You know, so you get these kind of complications. But another complication is that within some Calvinist traditions, once you are saved, you're always saved. And so that's the phrase that's sometimes thrown out, once saved, always saved. Which means that the reason for saying that, that once you're saved, you're always saved, is that it. It's emphasizing that it's not up to you. You aren't saving yourself if you don't save yourself, you can't unsave yourself. You know, it's, it's, even though it's personalized, it's like God is sovereign, God is the one who decides which is what leads to both predestination. But also, but that creates a dilemma. If you say once saved, always saved, what about people who are very committed evangelical Christians who Leave the faith. How do you explain that? And what most people, I think, within those circles would say is that they weren't really a Christian. They went through the motions. They said they were, but they weren't really. And so people tell me that all the time you weren't really a Christian. You weren't really born again. You weren't really, you know, you weren't really an evangelical. You just thought you were. And you know, from, from, you know, inside, I say, man, that is just crazy. I'm sorry. You're flipping crazy. I wasn't, man, was I. And so I, I have, I have a friend who's a. Who's not an evangelical. He's a Methodist minister who's also a New Testament scholar, Ph.D. in New Testament, who, who was a friend of mine who used to say that I went from being born again to. To being dead again, which I rather liked.
- [29:47]
A
Josh gets the oh, you are never really a Christian comment as well. My husband, for those who are unfamiliar, former pastor, excellent scholar, but apparently, according to these people, never actually really a Christian.
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B
It's cognitive dissonance. Right? Because you get this idea that when somebody makes this commitment, they're always going to be committed. Because this is so great. Why wouldn't you. And plus, you're safe now. Why would you give up on that? And so they can't imagine. And so the only way to figure it out is, well, they must not have really done it then. Yeah, that's all they can do now.
- [30:19]
A
Final question on this topic before we move on to other things. Is being born again in this sense a concept that Jesus or the early Christian movement would have recognized?
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B
No, absolutely not. They don't say anything about it. It's not the concept. I mean, they certainly, as I said, Paul understood that you, when you become a believer and are baptized, that you become a new person. And so they are living in a very different situation, though, because Paul is talking in Second Corinthians, Paul is addressing his, his. His audience. These are former converts of his who had been pagans, you know, and they had been worshiping idols and they worshiped other gods and they had Roman religion practices and Greek religious practices and things. And they had completely changed from what Paul's not writing to people who were born in a church, baptized in church, raised in a church. And so he's not. So when he says, you know, you became a new creature. They really did. I mean, they. It's different now. And Jesus. It's not what Jesus is about at all. Jesus never talks about this concept. What Jesus talks about is that people have turned against God and that God, God loves people and he wants them to, to do what he demands. But they've turned against him and they need to repent. They need to turn their lives around and repent and come back to God and then he will forgive them. But it's not like an internal transformation where they become a new person per se. It's not some kind of mystical transformation of some kind. Paul did not think that people needed to repent for their sins. Paul thought they needed to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul didn't think God will just forgive sins. If you say you know God, I'm wrong. I'm sorry. I'm going to turn my life around for Paul. That isn't how it works. It's, you've got to believe that Jesus died for your sins and was raised from the dead. And when that happens, then you, you get into God's good graces. That's how you're justified. And then you can join the Christian community once you're baptized. So it's faith and baptism for Paul, not for Jesus. But neither one of them had this concept that you know, you have to ask Jesus into your heart or that you have to commit your life to Christ as your Lord and Savior by a personal or you'll not get in. They don't have anything like that.
- [32:40]
A
Thank you very much. We are finishing our interview portion for today. We've got some news on upcoming events and of course our wonderful bonus section which is going to be listeners questions.
- [32:53]
B
Welcome to our upcoming highlights and events segment where we catch up on Barth's courses, community updates and all the latest news from the Biblical Studies Academy Academy and beyond.
- [33:09]
A
So we have a couple of announcements this week. First up, there is a new course on the way entitled the Rise and Fall of Biblical Israel. The Books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings that is going to be presented by Dr. Jacob Wright who is a professor of Hebrew Bible at Emory University and author of the massively popular book why the Bible Began. The course will include eight 50 minute lectures with lessons such as the Biblical Narrative From Genesis to Kings and the United Monarchy More than a Myth which actually sounds really interesting. I've not. I had a briefest of experiences with the history of Syria, Palestine and archaeology of the region but it's not my specialty in the slightest. It sounds fascinating. Barb, what are your thoughts?
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B
Well, I'll tell you people if people, people may not know what that that means but the United Monarchy. What he's talking about is did King David really exist? Was there a King David? So there are three kings over all of Israel, Saul, David and Solomon. And after that, according to the Bible, and after that, the kingdom split into two kingdoms. The northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. And that's the divided kingdom. But there are people who say, you know, yeah, that, that man, that's all legend. There wasn't really, there wasn't really a, you know, David or there wasn't really a Saul. And so, well, it's a question how much of that is legend and how much of it is reality and what can we know about the historical reality? So he's going to deal with this and he's a really, really bright guy. He is a, as you said, he's a very popular writer and he's a good speaker. I think people are going to really like this course.
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A
No, I'm, I'm looking forward to this one.
- [34:49]
B
And can I say something else about. Starts with, it starts with Joshua. This is where Israel takes the promised land. They go in with their troop, their armies and take over the promised land. And this is, this is the basis for thinking that, you know, this is the promised land for Israel and they, it's their land. And so this, it obviously has modern resonances on whatever, you know, whatever side people have. But this is kind of, this is the biblical basis for it.
- [35:13]
A
Absolutely. And I think it, that kind of thing really highlights the importance of studying history because it has very real implications, even though it was however, many years ago, very real implications for the world that we're living in at the moment. Now, as of the date of this recording, we are scheduled to record, to begin recording that course on March 1st. So this will be recorded live as with all of the courses that are presented by bart. So recorded live then you will have access to the video recordings for, I think we offer lifetime access so you can listen to them again and again and again, whenever suits you. So if you can't join live on March 1, then that's not a problem. You can watch them at a later date. But for the most up to date recording dates and the pricing, you can visit bart erman.com Rise of Israel and that will have all of the information you need. And our second announcement for today, Bart man of the hour is going to be giving a new talk in the Barth's Spotlight series which will be happening this Thursday. That's February 20th. The talk is titled Lost in Translations. Problems with making the Bible in English, which is amazing. But what kinds of things are you going to be covering in this?
- [36:32]
B
So this is for, you know, this is for the Biblical Studies Academy. And it's so people who belong to the Biblical Studies Academy just get this thing and it's going to be really interesting. It's, it turns out this is, you know, this wasn't planned. But the thing we were just talking about is part of the issue. Born again, born from above. How do you put it into English? You've got to choose a word, right? You got to choose a word to translate there. Which word do you use? And that's a very simple illustration of a very complex problem. How do you take a book written in an ancient language and put it into English that is both understandable as English and accurate? And there are enormous debates about how to even translate certain verses like that one, but lots of verses. And how do you know you're getting the right translation? And so I'm going to be talking in this thing about the problems of translating from Greek into English for the Bible. People use different Bible translations. And I'm telling you, if you're using the new international version, the niv, which is a very, very popular one, you're getting verses translated in ways that are different from say the new Revised Standard version, which is many scholars preferred version, but which it, which is right. So what are the issues? What are the issues of translating? That's, that's what it'll be about.
- [37:48]
A
Translation is it fascinating practice and I always, I really enjoy listening to people, especially things like Greek because I'm not familiar with it. Listening to the particular nuances of translating that into English is going to be wonderful. Now, as Bart said, this is a Biblical Studies Academy exclusive. So if you are interested in attending and are not Currently in the BSA, you can sign up for a free 14 day trial at Bart ehrman.com BSA Go enjoy Bart's talk. Have a look around, see what else is there and work out if you would like to stay for the longer term. So listen to questions. You ready?
- [38:26]
B
Yes, I think so. We'll see. Now it's time for questions from listeners where Bart answers real questions submitted by misquoting Jesus fans. If you'd like to see submit a question for future segments, Please visit bart erman.com Ask Bart.
- [38:51]
A
Okay, we have four fantastic questions. First up, in the Gospel of Mark, the first nine chapters portray Jesus as being constantly on the move. Is this a translational quirk, A rhetorical style of repetition setting the stage for moving into Jerusalem or is it just a coincidence?
- [39:12]
B
That's a good question. And you know Mark was probably our first gospel and Matthew and Luke both used Mark. Matthew and Luke have a lot more teachings of Jesus than Mark. Mark has just. Jesus is saying things of course, but he doesn't have like extended talks much, just chapter four where he tells some parables and chapter 13 when he talks about what's going to happen when the day of judgment comes. But there's not a lot of teaching in Mark in comparison with the others and, or with John which has extended discourses. But that means that if Mark decides not to include a lot of Jesus teachings it means that it's all action basically. And one of the, it's not all action but you know, it's, it's action driven. And one of the interesting things about reading Mark, if you read it carefully you'll notice that so many paragraphs begin with the word immediately, immediately this, immediately that, immediately this other thing. The Greek words youthus, youth. Youthus is like everything starting with youthus and, and it's, I don't know, you know, we don't know what was in Mark's mind for why he did that. But the effect of it is that it, it, it allows for this kind of rapid fire narrative where like exciting things are happening one after the other, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom until you get to the, which is Jesus goes to Jerusalem in chapter 11. And there, you know, and that, that's when the whole sequence begins leading to his passion which is the climax of it. And so I think you know, for this author the, the actions of Jesus, especially his death and resurrection are what really matter. And the, the events that are narrated before that are showing that he is the one who has to die. He's the, he's the miracle working Messiah who can cast out demons and raise and heal the sick and calm the storm. He can do all these things and he is the Messiah and then climaxes with his death.
- [41:09]
A
Thank you. Next question. What do we know about the pre ministerial influences on the historical Jesus that might have inspired his beliefs such that he was the Messiah? Given that the Gospel of Mark starts with Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, might John having been an especially fervent and pious preacher have been the catalyst for Jesus own ministry?
- [41:32]
B
Good question. So you know in, in the New Testament two of our gospels, Matthew and Luke begin with Jesus birth. Matthew then jumps after the birth story jumps right to Jesus baptism by John. Luke is, Luke does not. Luke has the story of the birth. And then Luke has a story of Jesus as a 12 year old boy going to the temple and discussing things with the law when he gets left behind in Jerusalem. That's the only story we have of the pre baptismal Jesus after his birth in the New Testament because Mark begins with him as an adult according to John the Baptist. The gospel of John begins with him associating with John the Baptist. And so three of them are all John the Baptist. And the other one gives us one story about him as a 12 year old which doesn't help us much. And so, so the question is, well, what could have influenced the kinds of views that he had? And in particular, would it have been John the Baptist? I'd say the answer to that is impossible to give. We don't know what his early influences were. I would assume that he has influences throughout his entire life up to this point where as an adult he begins his own ministry. It is clear that he begins his ministry by being baptized by John. That is multiply attested throughout all of our sources. And there are very good reasons for that's how he started out, however old he was, whatever he'd been doing before that, this is when he starts his mission. But the question is, is it because he had heard this new message from John that made him start realizing what he himself believed in a new way? Or did he go to John because John's preaching was compatible with what he had been thinking himself? I tend to think the latter. I tend to think that he probably, Jesus already had these kind of apocalyptic views, that the end was coming soon and people needed to prepare for it. And when he heard about John the Baptist, he realized he's preaching this, this message. And it may, it may have affected him. I think it probably did affect him in some ways and may have changed him in some ways. But my sense is that he was completely open to that ahead of time. I don't, there's no evidence one way or the other, but it just seems more likely to me that he was inclined that way than all of sudden he came to this realization.
- [43:55]
A
Thank you. Now, skipping ahead to after Jesus death, the next question wants to know how far geographically speaking, had the oral traditions of Jesus spread before we start getting written accounts? Could Jesus have been well known throughout the Roman Empire before the Gospels were written?
- [44:14]
B
I don't think Jesus was well known throughout the Roman Empire because even if it spread widely, most people still hadn't heard it. I mean in my, in my book the Triumph of Christian, I tried to show how quickly Christianity grew. And so you Know, if you. We're pretty sure we have. We know kind of approximately how many Christians there were by the early 4th century. And we. The New Testament tells us how many Christians, believers in Jesus there were after his death. There, you know, 11 men and a handful of women believed he got raised from the dead, and they're the first. So you go from, you know, say 20 people to, you know, 3 or 4 million people in 300 years. And so you can calculate kind of how many people there are who believe in Jesus. And by the end of the first century, there's probably under 10,000 or less people in the entire Roman Empire of 6, 60 million people who believe in Jesus. And so I don't think. It's not like everybody had heard of him. He's not even mentioned by him by any of Greek and Roman sources in the period. So I don't think it's that he was widely known, but that's not really quite the issue. The issue is how, how far were the oral traditions spreading? So if Mark is written in the year 70 or so and John is written around the year 90 or 95 or so, how many people would have known about Jesus already at that point? Well, we know of churches not just in, in Israel, in, in Judea and probably up in Galilee. We know of churches over in what's now Turkey and Asia Minor and what's now Greece, Macedonia and Achaia. And in Rome there may well have been churches, if it's possible that as far as far west as Spain, possibly in Northern Africa, possibly Alexandria. So there are small groups of Christians throughout the Mediterranean. It sounds like by the year 100, the people who are writing the Gospels are not introducing this knowledge to their readers. Their readers are members of their churches. The reason they're writing these books is to inform their readers how best to understand Jesus. So they're not introducing Jesus Jesus to people. These books are probably not being read by non Christians, they're being read by Christians. And these four are located, probably located in four different locations, four different places in the empire. So I would say it's widespread, but I wouldn't say it's widely that Jesus knowledge is widely known.
- [46:39]
A
Thank you. Now, final question for today. Is Satan the bad guy within the Holy Bible? Why do Christians see Satan or Lucifer as the personification of evil when his actions in the Bible don't necessarily correspond to such a reading?
- [46:55]
B
Right, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is an interesting question, and it's because. The reason I think it's interesting is because you have a Satan figure in the Hebrew Bible. And you've got Satan, the devil in the New Testament. And they appear to be different beings. Strangely enough, people are most familiar with Satan Hasatan in, in the Book of Job, where the, the, the Satan. The word Satan means adversary. The adversary is, is the one who is, who's a member of God's council. He's one of God's counselors up in heaven. And he's the one who tells God that actually Job, the righteous man on earth, is righteous only because God's given him everything. But if you take everything away, he won't be be righteous anymore. And so he's, he's. And God tells him to go ahead and take everything away from him. And so there. Satan is not like the devil personified. He's not an evil figure living down in hell or something. He's. He's one of God's counselors who, you know, plays devil's advocate. So to say. He's more like a devil's advocate than the devil. When you get to the New Testament, things have changed because by New Testament times, Jew, the Jewish people influenced by Judaism who write the New Testament are apocalyptic Jews who, who believe that there are forces of evil in the world that are making life miserable for people. And that's a view that came about about 200 years before Jesus was not around. When job was written 200 years before Jesus, people, Jewish thinkers, started thinking that the reason there's so much pain and misery in the world is because of these powers of evil. And they picked on this person, the adversary, and they elevated him to God's greatest opponent rather than his counselor. And God's enemy is the devil. And so in the New Testament, the devil is not a good person. He's not up with the heavenly council. He's the leader of the forces of evil. He's the head of the demons. He's the one who's controlling everything wicked happening in this world. He's the main enemy of God. So that's the New Testament view versus the Old Testament. And so I'd say the deal is you've got two different views.
- [49:08]
A
Thank you. Now, before we finish for the week, Bart, would you mind just summarizing what we spoke about today?
- [49:14]
B
Yeah. So today we've been talking about this phrase born again, which is a phrase that has been around in evangelical circles for a long time. And what does it actually mean? What does it mean to be born again? And does a person have to be born again? And is there any biblical basis for this? Or is this, is this simply part of modern evidence, evangelical lingo that isn't really grounded in the Christian tradition? And so it's an important issue because, you know, many people think that you've got to have this rebirth in order to, to be saved. And other people think that it's actually, no, it's not really part of the traditional Christian tradition.
- [49:53]
A
Thank you so much, Bart Audience. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future, future episodes. Remember, you can use the code MJ podcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.barterman.com. misquoting Jesus will be back next week, but what are we talking about next time?
- [50:13]
B
Well, you know, in, in a way, what we're talking about next time is, is related to what we did today. Next time we're talking about did Jesus believe in heaven? And you know, the answer seems pretty obvious to most people. Why are you going to talk about that? Well, because, in fact, it, as we say around here, head's complicated. And so we'll be talking about that next time.
- [50:35]
A
Make sure you join us for that. Thank you all and goodbye. This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your Facebook favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.