Megan Lewis (4:56)

Thank you very much. All right, we are going to get into all of your fantastic questions, so we're just gonna dive in. Are you ready, Bart?

Bart Ehrman (5:05)

Okay, we'll see.

Megan Lewis (5:07)

He's like, maybe. Solid. Maybe. All right, first up is about the curtain in the temple being rent into. Who would or how could anyone know that the temple curtain was torn into the instant Jesus died? There were no watches, no cell phones, no instant communication. It seems total fabrication.

Bart Ehrman (5:29)

Yes. I mean, it's so, it's the, the first occurrence of this is in the Gospel of Mark. Jesus has been taken to the place of crucifixion. He's crucified and the curtain ripped in half. And the centurion, seeing how he died then says, you're this man was the Son of God. Now, that may not mean that he saw the curtain ripping. It's often taken to mean that he sees it. But it is kind of hard to imagine how that would happen. The temple was located within the walls of Jerusalem and the Holy of Holies was within the temple complex and was not. The curtain of the temple was not visible from the outside. So certainly nobody could have seen it at the crucifixion, as is often imagined. But it also would not have been. No, nobody would have been able to see it. You couldn't see both things at once. And so, and I'll say also by. Well, it's fabricated because the temple and the curtain was not ripped in half. You know, we, it's. It still is there after the year 30 or 33, whenever Jesus died. And so this is, this is meant to be a metaphorical statement. It's, it's not a, it's not something that happened, but it's, it's trying to explain that Jesus death now gives people access to God who dwells behind the curtain in the holy of holies. He gives us access. And so it's meant to be a theological statement, it's not a historical fact.

Megan Lewis (6:54)

In the same vein, before and immediately after the death of Jesus, according to the Bible, some events occur like darkness falling on the earth, earthquakes, and the resurrection of the saints who appear to people in Jerusalem. Are there any historical attestations for these events?

Bart Ehrman (7:10)

No. What this question has summarized is Matthew's version in particular, where there, there is, there is darkness elsewhere in the other gospels, but Matthew has this kind of complete solar eclipse kind of thing. And, and, you know, bodies being raised from the dead and earthquakes and rock shattering. And that's meant to show that this is a cataclysmic event, the Son of God has been crucified and that it has a. It's an apocalyptic event. It shows that the end is coming soon because these are images of what it's going to be like at the. Again, this is all metaphorical. People have tried to come up with explanations of the darkness since the third century. The church Father origin argued that it was, it was a, an eclipse. And people have tried to date the death of Jesus based on when do we know of a full eclipse, you know, and they get. And yeah, man, no, you can't do it. People have tried. No one's been successful, even though they probably think they themselves think they have. But. So there's nothing to link this to anything historical.

Megan Lewis (8:21)

Did Jesus really rise on Sunday or was that just the day his resurrection was discovered, as nobody would have been able to find out on the Sabbath?

Bart Ehrman (8:30)

Well, it depends who you're talking to. If you're talking to me, I don't think he was raised on a Sunday because I don't think Jesus was raised physically raised from the dead. I'm not a Christian. And so in the Gospels, it's quite clear that it is on the third day. Friday would be the first day, Saturday the second, and so it would have to be Sunday morning. And it happens before the women arrive early on. So early Sunday morning would be the answer. In the Gospels, they're all. They're all clear about that. They differ in some other issues relating to the dating of it, but in terms of it being Sunday morning, they're all. They're all unified that later, the third day makes sense. Later people started saying three days and three nights. And that's. That again, is kind of. That's generalized language. It's not. It can't be three days and three nights. If he dies Friday afternoon and is raised Sunday morning. Yeah.

Megan Lewis (9:29)

What is the explanation for Matthew 27:52 to 53 that follows Jesus resurrection? This states that the tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised after his resurrection. They came out of the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many. Does this passage imply that many people were resurrected?

Bart Ehrman (9:53)

So I tend to differentiate between the term resurrection and the term resuscitation. Not everybody is happy with this differentiation, but I think it's important that even in Matthew, the resurrection of Jesus is a. Is a unique event. Resuscitation is when somebody is dead or seems to be dead and comes back. These people in, in Matthew who are raised from the dead, they're actually, they're actually. When you read Matthew carefully, they're actually raised at the time of the crucifixion. When Jesus dies, they come to life, but they don't come out of the tombs until later. So they're in their tombs for a while alive, and then they come out. The. The. The significance of this is that this. Again, it's only in Matthew, but the significance of it is that Jesus is the one who brings eternal life, that those who are Dead will come back to life. And this is a foreshadowing of what's going to happen at the general resurrection and on the Day of Judgment. And so it. But again, it's all centered on Jesus death being a death that brings about salvation for those who have died already and all those who are, who are going to die. And so, you know, it's. Look, it's a problematic passage. I know a number of evangelicals, conservative evangelicals, who would probably, who will say that the Bible has no errors in it, that will say this did not happen, that it's a, it's a metaphor, it's a parable of some kind, because they just, they. For, for some even like evangelical scholars, this is a step too far. This is. This man, this. No, this did not happen.

Megan Lewis (11:35)

Could you comment on the work of Samuel Reimarus, specifically his speculation that the apostles faked the resurrection by removing Jesus body from the tomb and then burying it? If I recall correctly, he suggests that these actions were a ploy by the apostles to gain power since the crucifixion scuttled their plans to serve as the leaders of the 12 tribes when the kingdom of God arrived.

Bart Ehrman (11:57)

Yeah. So Hermann Samuel Raimaris was a German philosopher and theologian who was very much a person of the Enlightenment who did not believe that miracles really happened and tried to explain how what happened with Jesus, if miracles didn't happen, for example, was he really raised from the dead? And Raimorus said the answer to that is no. He wrote up his, his views of this in a manuscript that he did not publish in his lifetime in the 1770s, because he knew he'd get fired and it would ruin his life. After he died, a German philosopher, a famous German philosophy philosopher, Lessing, got a hold of his papers and found this thing and published it. And so sometimes these are just called the fragments, the Raimaris's fragments, for various reasons. So he did think that Jesus would stay dead. And. But you have these stories of the resurrection. How did that happen? Well, he has a natural explanation for everything. You can explain everything according to the natural world and the way the laws of nature work. And he thought what must have happened is the disciples who had been with Jesus for these years had rather enjoyed being able not to work and to have people support them in their, in their preaching ministries. And when Jesus died, they realized the gig was up and they decided that they wanted to continue doing the sorts of things they had done. And so what they did is they stole the body from the tomb and hid it and declared that Jesus had been raised and they saw him again and that started Christianity. So it was a scandalous claim at the time and is to many people still today. It's the first account we have of somebody from somebody who really, really thought that this thing was fabricated and came up with a way of understanding it. Many people have attacked this view and said, no, that couldn't be. The disciples wouldn't have stolen the body. Or, you know, the disciples died for saying Jesus raised from the dead. They wouldn't die for a lie. And so people have, you know, have ways to respond to it. And I don't think it's the best solution for understanding how the stories of Jesus resurrection started. But it was the first one and the. And probably in some ways the most famous one.

Megan Lewis (14:19)

I really hear anything about the Ascension and the Assumption. These were supposed, there were supposed witnesses. And as this is kind of a big deal or bigger than the resurrection, are these events in the New Testament? And if so, how do the four books differ?

Bart Ehrman (14:35)

So there are, there are two different terms that are referred to two different things. The res. The. The Ascension refers to Jesus going up, going up to heaven. The Assumption has to do with his mother Mary, who herself was taken up to heaven either after she died or before she died in different. In different Christian traditions. So we'll talk about the Ascension. It's. The actual ascension is narrated or spoken of in only two passages, both of them by Luke. The first occurs at the very end of Luke's Gospel, where it is if you actually read the entire final chapter of Luke, Luke 24, it's on the day that Jesus was raised from the dead. He meets with several of his disciples, ends up meeting with all the disciples. And on that day, at the end of the day, he's taken up to heaven. You have an account of Jesus ascension as well in the book of Acts written by the same author. But the striking irony is that Acts written by the same author in the first chapter, which would have been the first chapter of the second volume, right after the end of Luke, Acts chapter one indicates that Jesus was raised from the dead and he spent 40 days with his disciples souls demonstrating to them that he was alive with many proofs before giving his final instructions. And then they actually watch him ascend to heaven. So there's a contrast here because in Luke it happens on the day of the. The day of the resurrection. And in the Acts, Same author, it's 40 days later. Well, try dealing with that one. In Acts though, there's an extended narration where the disciples are watching him go up to heaven and two. Two men appear. They're. They're angelic beings who are in the shape of men who tell them, why are you watching him go up to. Go up to heaven? You know, he's going to come back the same way he left. And so this is the doctrine. This is showing that Jesus is going to come back physically from heaven. And so those are. Those are the two accounts. The other books of the New Testament assume that Jesus is in heaven, that after his resurrection he did go to heaven. But these are the only accounts of an ascension where he bodily went up. The others just don't talk about it. The others seem to think that when he died, when he got raised, he wasn't raised back. I mean, he came back to talk to the disciples and things, but he's actually raised up to heaven and, and there's some assumption in the New Testament that he's up in heaven and occasionally he'll come down, like when he came down to Paul later, rather than he physically went up and he's up there forever.

Megan Lewis (17:17)

Thank you. Are there other historical figures whose followers believed they died and resurrected, or was this a novel belief for Jesus? Early followers?

Bart Ehrman (17:27)

There are other instances of people who either die and are taken up to heaven or who die and come back and talk to their followers. One of the more famous ones is Apollonius of Tiana. He was a. He was a philosopher, a Greek philosopher. He was a Pythagorean philosopher at the end of the first century who has a story of his life written later that's very similar to the Gospel stories about Jesus. He's miraculously born by a divine being impregnating a woman. He's a wunderkind. When he's a young man, he can do miracles. He can cast out demons and heal the sick and raise the dead. And he gets in trouble with the Roman authorities who put him on trial, he ascends to heaven. I mean, and then he comes back and talks to. Talks to a follower. Just as in the Gospels, Jesus comes back. You have accounts of Romulus, who was the king, who. The first king of Rome, who allegedly was taken while alive, but either killed or just taken directly up into heaven and came back and met with one of his. One of his person who knew him and explained what had happened. So there are, there are other, There are other instances of this that you have in the. Yeah. In the Greek and Roman worlds. You also, of course, have instances in Jewish circles of people being taken directly into heaven without Dying Elijah and Enoch in the, in the Hebrew Bible, for example.

Megan Lewis (19:00)

Thank you very much, Bart. We're going to take a very brief break because we have an announcement for everyone. Before we continue with our episode, we want to share something special as Easter approaches. This year, Bart is going to be giving a live Easter message inside the Biblical studies Academy on April 4th. It won't be a traditional church service with prayer or singing or an altar call. Instead, it's a thoughtful look at the teachings of Jesus and what parts of them might still speak to people today. Bart, could you tell us a little bit about what you're planning and how this will be different from a typical Easter message?

Bart Ehrman (19:34)

Well, I'm not a, I'm not a Christian believer, so I don't believe in Jesus resurrection. But I think that the message that Jesus delivered in his lifetime is encapsulated in the story of Jesus resurrection. And part of what I'm going to be saying is that you know that even people who don't believe in Easter, there are lessons you can learn from stories that you don't believe in that are really important lessons. And we would be crazy not to look at what the profound message of this event was, was, and can be, not just, not just for Christian believers. And so that may seem kind of weird to people, but if they tune in, they'll see what I mean.

Megan Lewis (20:17)

So it's going to be a 20 to 30 minute reflection and here's the best part. You can attend for free with a 14 day trial of the Biblical Studies Academy or BSA. If you've ever wanted to experience Easter in a way that's intellectually honest and still meaningful, this is a really great opportunity. Just head to bartiman.com BSA to start your free trial and join us live on April 4th. Okay, announcements over. We are going to dive back into our Q a extravaganza with First Corinthians. In First Corinthians 15:4, Paul says that Jesus was buried instead of something like laid in a tomb. What is the meaning of the word he uses here? Can it indicate that early Christians believed Jesus was buried underground? The with later tales of an empty tomb spread to make the resurrection more explicit and profound.

Bart Ehrman (21:13)

Well, the word buried just in this case, yeah, I guess for us it does mean like you dig it. You dig something and you put some something in and bury it that way. But I believe it's a word where that's just used for disposing of the remains of a person and so something, you know, so, you know, I Need to explain why Paul's saying this, because I think it might be confusing Otherwise. In, in 1st Corinthians 15, Paul is talking about the, the, the kind of basic message they delivered to the Corinthians. And he begins this passage, chapter 15, verse 3 to 5, by saying that he's reminding them of what he passed on to them. This is, this is something that he himself inherited. That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and he was buried, that Christ was raised from the dead according to the Scriptures and that he appeared to cephas and the 12. So this is a neatly arranged creed. He died according to Scripture in accordance with the Scriptures and he's buried. He was raised in accordance with the Scriptures and he was seen. And so each part has three elements to it. A fact that happened, reference to the Scripture, and a piece of evidence. So the fact that he actually died is in, the fact is shown the fact that his remains were disposed of, the fact that he was really raised is in, is in the reality that people saw him afterwards. And so that's what, how this creed is functioning. So the buried part is not significant for Paul with respect to whether dirt was dug up and, and you know, the body was placed in the ground versus for example, putting into a grave, into a, in a, you know, in a, in a cave. Either way, it counts as a burial. And for people who say that, that proves that there was a known burial place. No, it doesn't prove that at all. It just means they disposed of the remains, which they always did with crucified victims, usually long after they died.

Megan Lewis (23:10)

If Jesus resurrected body in Luke and John had scars from the wounds of his crucifixion, how can that be reconciled with 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul argued Christians will be raised like Jesus with glorified bodies?

Bart Ehrman (23:25)

Well, I'm not sure it can be reconciled. They're, they're really kind of dealing with different things and they have slight, they have different visions of what it meant for Jesus to be raised. Both the, the, the Gospels and Paul think that Jesus body was raised. The difference is that Paul, who's writing earlier, is arguing against people who think that Jesus was not bodily raised, but that somehow his soul lived on afterwards. Words. And Paul's insisting, no, no, his body was raised. His body was made into a glorified immortal body. And that's what's going to happen to us too. First Corinthians 15 is all about what's going to happen to us at the resurrection. And we will have glorified perfect bodies like Jesus did, or as Jesus did. Matthew, Luke and John are not dealing with that issue per se. They're trying to show that it literally is the same body that came out of the, the tomb. And so for them, they have to demonstrate that it's an actual body and not some kind of ghost or something. And so for them, they emphasize that he's still got the wounds, for example, so that Thomas can put his hand in the side or they can feel his hands, feel his wounds in his hands, and he can eat. They give him something to eat. So apparently he still has a digestive system. And so he is really, this is really a bodily thing. And so they're, they're trying to emphasize different aspects of this and end up then with slight, with different portrayals of what it's all about.

Megan Lewis (24:56)

If Jesus was left on the cross to decompose for days or weeks, as was typical for the Romans, wouldn't this undermine the reports of a resurrection or an empty tomb? Wouldn't his early followers have been able to see his body still on the cross?

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Bart Ehrman (25:48)

were in Jerusalem, I suppose so. But in our oldest records, they weren't there. They, they fled and they were up in Galilee. So if Jesus was on the cross, say, for three or four days after he died, and they, they disposed of his, of his remains, there weren't fall. The disciples weren't there to see anything of that that happened. And you know, I think we glorify this too much by assuming that it's this special event and people were sitting there taking notes or like, and. But, you know, people who were crucified happened every day and, and they, you know, they left on the crosses for a few days to deteriorate for a while and to be eaten by scavengers. And then they disposed of their remains. The disciples would be up in Galilee. They, Matthew, Mark, they're up in Galilee. And so they, you know, it takes about, it's 100 miles or so. I mean, it takes, you know, days to get there by the time they may not even be in Galilee yet before Jesus is disposed of. So I don't think there's necessarily no a known burial place and I don't think they would have had any way of knowing even if he, even if he even is, even if his body was supposed to disposed a few days later, he'd say, well, okay, he appeared to them, you know, after that.

Megan Lewis (26:59)

At what point in time did Jesus stop being fully human as well as fully divine? Was this after the crucifixion, after his resurrection, or after his ascension? Given that he had now lost his full humanity, does that make him less than when he was on earth? I ask from a position of agnosticism, but I'm curious as to what the mainstream Christian position might be.

Bart Ehrman (27:20)

The mainstream Christian position is that he never lost his full humanity. This becomes a matter of debate within, within Christian circles how to understand who Christ is. Is he human? Is he divine? Is he both? If he's both, is he like 50% of both? Did he develop from one to the other? I mean, how's that work exactly? But the, but the mainline Christian view has always been that Jesus was human and the mainline view has always been that he was also divine, not one or the other. And eventually it's not until you get later into several centuries later, when theologians are really wrestling with us, that the official doctrine emerges that he's a hundred human and 100% divine, and he's been 100% human ever since he was born.

Megan Lewis (28:14)

Is it possible that Jesus, with the help and influence of Joseph of Arimathea and others, performed a trick with the resurrection, that he went through most of his crucifixion but was taken off the cross early, survived for a while, and then later died of his wounds?

Bart Ehrman (28:29)

Well, that's, that's a thesis that's been around for a long time. It's called the swoon theory. The idea is that he there, there are different ways of doing it. One way of doing it is that he, that he actually went into a coma on the cross and it looked like his, and his vital sign slowed down. This is, this is view by the way that's put forth by Heinrich Pal, Heinrich Palace, a German writer in the, what is it, 1823, who wrote a book on the life of Jesus who argued this. Precisely what happened. He, he went into a coma, vital sign slowed down, looked like he stopped breathing, looked like his heart wasn't beating. They took him off the cross, put him in a tomb, and he woke up in the tomb a couple days later and revived and then walked out and they thought he was alive again. So that's one version. Another version is that Jesus arranged the whole thing. He worked it out with Joseph of Arimathea to be drugged on the cross so that his violence looked like he died and then to wake up again. This is the thesis put forth by Hugh Schoenfeld in the book the. The Passover Plot, which came out in the 1960s and made a big splash. Shown was a bona fide scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other things. And he put forth this theory that, that he was supposed to be drugged on the cross with cooperation of Joseph of Arimathea. But according to Schoenville, what happened was Jesus had not calculated on a soldier putting a spear into his side. So he puts the spear into his side and you know, so it ends up. It ends up that things didn't go as planned and he did revive, but he didn't last long afterwards. So, yes, that is a theory and you have to take every hypothesis seriously and you have to look what the evidence is. What's the evidence that, that. That he and Joseph of Arimathea collaborated. The evidence for he and him and Joseph Arimathea collaborating is the same evidence that he and Mary Magdalene collaborated or that he and Peter collaborated or he, the Caiaphas collaborated or he and the Roman Emperor collaborated. It's like, yeah, no, there's no evidence. So, yeah, you can think it if you want, but if you prefer, like going with what's historically probable, that that's probably not probable.

Megan Lewis (30:50)

What did the Gnostics think of the resurrection of Jesus and how did that fit in with their own views?

Bart Ehrman (30:57)

Different Gnostic groups had different views about most everything. One view that was commonly held among the Gnostics. Most Gnostic groups agreed that Jesus Christ was two entities. A human man, a man, human Jesus, and a divine element that had come into him prior to his ministry. You know, call it the Christ element. But this divine element entered into him, enabling him to do his miracles and to deliver his great teachings and to deliver the truth that could bring salvation. But then when he was to be executed or during the execution, the divine element left him, because the divine element can't suffer and die. And so the man Jesus died by himself. Nonetheless, even though the divine element left Jesus, in some Gnostic traditions, the divine element re entered Jesus in the tomb and allowed him to be raised from the Dead. And he appeared then to his disciples and with this divine element in him now, he delivered them the real truth. He couldn't do it during his public ministry because public people were listening in. But now he's got the disciples to himself. And this is when he delivers the Gnosis, the knowledge, the true knowledge that's necessary for salvation. So in that way, that Gnostic way of understanding Jesus, the divine element, and reenters him and, and delivers the secret teachings.

Megan Lewis (32:22)

Final question for today. In Mark 12:25, Jesus is narrated, saying that a resurrected person is like an angel in heaven. Is this something that the historical Jesus could have believed that a resurrection would resemble, sort of like heavenly bodies on earth? Or is this more possibly a later edition?

Bart Ehrman (32:41)

Well, either is possible. I'd say in this case it's a little bit difficult to know. This is a response, this is a response to the Sadducees. Jesus has come to Jerusalem in Mark, chapter 11. And he's. He enters into some controversies with various groups. He starts off controversial himself. He goes and he cleanses the temple and, and drives out the money changers and the people selling animals and things. And seems to, in Mark, he shuts down the temple operation. And the Sadducees were closely connected with the, with the temple and its operation, the priesthood. And so they are his enemy, portrayed as his enemies. And they want to trip him up and to show, publicly, show that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He, as an apocalypticist, believes in the future resurrection of the dead. The Sadducees are known for not accepting the idea that there will be an afterlife, a future resurrection. They believe that death is the end of the story, that you die and that's it. And so they're trying, they have this controversy with Jesus about whether there is going to be a resurrection. So they asked Jesus, they set a puzzle for Jesus in mark in chapter 12, where they say, okay, so according to the law of Moses, if a man marries a woman and they don't have a child and the man dies, his oldest, the oldest brother in his family is to marry the woman and then have a child with her so that his older brother will then have a descendant and it'll be his brother' child. But, but that's supposed to happen. Okay, so the deal here is this, this Jesus, there's a man who had, who had seven brothers, and they, and he died, and the next one didn't get her pregnant, then he died and the next one didn't get her, and there were no children. At the end. So she was married to all seven of them in heaven. When, when you know and you, your resurrection of the dead, you think they're all going to be resurrected. Which one's going to be her husband? They all married her. And so, and so Jesus, Jesus, he, he knows how to deal with these kinds of intellectual traps and he replies to them that, you know, the problem is you don't understand the scriptures because in fact what happens is in the resurrection we will be like. Those who are resurrected will be like angels. They're in, in the resurrection there'll be neither marriage nor giving as being given in marriage. People will be like the angels. Now he's not talking about when your soul goes to heaven. He's talking about in the resurrect, the physical resurrection, when people resurrected from the dead and have physical bodies. And he's saying that then people will behave like angels. Angels have bodies, but they don't marry and intermarry, so they don't reproduce and people won't be reproducing in the kingdom of heaven. And so that's, so he's trying to show that, that people won't reproduce and that that will be an angelic, that will be an angelic existence. And apparently, apparently that's preferable. So I'm not going to go there. But some, some people thought it was preferable not to have sexual relationships. Okay, Jesus was one of them. But he, you know, did, did he say it? Did he mean it? He could have. I mean, because this is in fact, it's in line with his thinking about a future resurrection. So I think it's entirely possible.

Megan Lewis (36:11)

But thank you very much for taking the time to answer everyone's questions. Audience, thank you so much for sending them in. We will have another Q A session in a few weeks time. I was going to ask you before we finished for the week what we spoke about, but given that it wasn't really a scripted interview, we spoke about a lot of different things.

Bart Ehrman (36:29)

All of them about Jesus, death and resurrection. Key, key themes, especially for this time of year.

Megan Lewis (36:35)

Audience thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Remember that you can use the Code MJ podcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.barterman.com. Ms. Quoting Jesus will be back next week. Make sure you join us then. Thank you all and goodbye. This has been an episode of Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis, thank you for joining us.