Why Fundamentalism is Not (Always) Such a Bad Thing. Take Bart for example...

Summary

Podcast Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Why Fundamentalism is Not (Always) Such a Bad Thing. Take Bart for example...
Podcast: Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman
Date: January 23, 2024
Host: Megan Lewis
Guest: Dr. Bart Ehrman

This episode explores Bart Ehrman’s journey from teenage born-again fundamentalist to world-renowned biblical scholar and agnostic. The discussion centers on whether his fundamentalist upbringing provided unexpected advantages, both personally and professionally, despite the well-known pitfalls and limitations of fundamentalism. Ehrman candidly reflects on how his early years in intense religious environments shaped, propelled, and ultimately challenged him—revealing the complex interplay between faith, education, and critical inquiry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bart’s Current Work and Research

• [01:24-03:25] Bart discusses his current research project: a book on “The Origins of Altruism,” focusing on how Christian ethics introduced new dimensions to Western moral thought, emphasizing that Jesus’ original ethical teachings were “softened” by later followers as apocalyptic expectations faded.
  • Notable quote:
    “Jesus had a very rigorous ethic in many ways... his followers didn’t sustain that rigor... instead of, like, sell everything and give to the poor, they said, yeah, be generous.” — Bart Ehrman (02:47)

2. Early Life and Conversion to Fundamentalism

• [06:02-08:22] Bart’s conversion at age 15 didn’t immediately alter his teenage lifestyle but gradually led him toward group prayer, Bible study, and a more religious outlook.
  • He describes himself as initially driven by competition more than spiritual or academic ambition.
  • At the suggestion of a Youth for Christ leader, he chooses Moody Bible Institute for its intensity and seriousness in Christianity.
  • “If I was going to be a serious Christian, I needed to go to a Christian school... Moody was the best place in the world to go, and I had no clue.” — Bart Ehrman (08:32)

3. Experiences at Moody Bible Institute

• [10:12-16:39]
  • Bart describes Moody as a formative, immersive, and high-intensity environment—“hardcore” biblical study, evangelism, apologetics, and compulsory ministry.
  • He wasn't academically driven at first, but Moody’s focus and the zeal of fundamentalist faith pushed him into deep, methodical study. Bart even memorized entire biblical books and developed creative mnemonic techniques.
  • “The brain is not a closed container that gets filled up. It’s like a sponge that expands the more that’s in it... So I just, yeah, so that helped.” — Bart Ehrman (15:11)
  • He credits his debate team experience with teaching him rigorous research skills.
  • While most Moody students focused on ministry, Bart gravitated toward academic biblical study.

4. Transition to Wheaton College

• [17:01-19:15]
  • After Moody, needing a BA to pursue graduate work, Bart attends Wheaton College (an evangelical liberal arts school).
  • Wheaton’s more open academic environment broadens his intellectual horizons and nudges him away from rigid fundamentalism toward a more nuanced evangelical faith.

5. Princeton Theological Seminary

• [19:15-22:04, 26:20-27:36]
  • Bart chooses Princeton over Dallas Theological Seminary to study with the famed textual critic Bruce Metzger.
  • He initially plans to be “an evangelical among the scholars,” wanting to bring that perspective to secular university settings.
  • At Princeton, Bart recognizes the superiority of his biblical knowledge due to his intense training, but also confronts new challenges and the need to self-teach many humanities subjects.

6. Practical Ministry Experience

• [22:04-24:00]
  • His stint as a youth pastor taught him critical skills—explaining complex ideas to young audiences, engaging and retaining teenagers, and practical communication.
  • The experience also convinces him not to pursue church ministry due to its demanding, unpredictable nature.
  • “That started the entire process for me of trying to figure out how to make difficult things simple and understandable and interesting. So it changed my life, really.” — Bart Ehrman (23:04)

7. Downsides and Gaps of Fundamentalist Education

• [28:05-32:32]
  • Despite the positive momentum, Bart laments the shallow liberal arts education at Moody—describing it as “very, very bad education in the humanities.”
  • Apart from Wheaton, most of his knowledge of art, music, and literature is self-taught.
  • “In all those 12 years, I never set foot in a secular classroom. The first time I ever entered a secular higher education classroom was the day I started to teach at Rutgers University.” — Bart Ehrman (30:26)

8. Overall Evaluation: Was Fundamentalism Net Positive?

• [32:32-35:07, 49:15-50:11]
  • Bart expresses mixed feelings, recognizing both harm and benefit in fundamentalism:
    • Advantages: Intellectual discipline, deep biblical knowledge, strong work ethic, love for learning, and communication skills.
    • Disadvantages: Socially regressive ethics, narrow worldview, limited exposure to broader humanities, and potential for harm.
  • “I can’t really fault it because, you know, I really love what I’m doing now and I wouldn’t be doing it otherwise. So that part’s true. But, you know, and I guess it’s one of these things, you just have to take the bad with the good and the good with the bad.” — Bart Ehrman (34:44)
  • He cautions: “I don’t recommend it as a way to a path.” — Bart Ehrman (34:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the narrowing effects of fundamentalism:
  “People just think, you know, the Bible’s right, the world was created in six 24-hour days... but there actually is harm in it because you can’t understand who we are if you take the Bible literally like that.” — Bart Ehrman (32:44)
• On not recommending fundamentalism as a career path:
  “I don’t recommend choosing your career when you’re 17. A lot of things I don’t recommend. I don’t recommend fundamentalist sexual ethics, for example, fundamentalist understandings of women... but if I didn’t go through it, I wouldn’t be who I am. So, you know, what can I say?” — Bart Ehrman (34:48–35:07)
• On learning through necessity:
  “I have to figure out how to make something interesting to a 14-year-old... That started the entire process for me of trying to figure out how to make difficult things simple and understandable and interesting.” — Bart Ehrman (23:04)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Key Content | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 01:24-03:25 | Bart’s current research | Ethics of Jesus, softening of Jesus’ radical message | | 06:02-08:22 | Teenage conversion & ambitions | Early religious and academic trajectory | | 08:32-10:12 | Decision to attend Moody, influence of mentors | Choosing fundamentalist education | | 10:12-16:39 | Life and method at Moody Bible Institute | College experience, cognitive discipline | | 17:01-19:15 | Transition to Wheaton | Broadening intellectual scope | | 19:15-22:04 | Choosing Princeton & desire to be “evangelical voice” | Graduate education decisions | | 22:04-24:00 | Youth pastor experience | Communication and teaching skills developed | | 26:20-27:36 | Transition to scholarship, language study | Shift from fundamentalist assumptions | | 28:05-32:32 | Downsides of fundamentalist education | Gaps in humanities, self-education | | 32:32-35:07 | Was it a net positive? | Mixed review, personal and philosophical reflection | | 49:15-50:11 | Episode summary by Bart | Final thoughts on the legacy of fundamentalism |

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Listener Questions Highlights

• Did you believe in eternal conscious torment?
  • Bart did as a fundamentalist (“absolutely... people who didn’t believe in Jesus were going to hell and would be punished forever”). Now, he thinks it’s contradictory to an all-loving God, and not what Jesus actually taught. [40:47-42:38]
• Why did Matthew translate ‘young woman’ as ‘virgin’ in Isaiah 7:14?
  • Matthew used the Greek translation (“parthenos”) which could mean virgin; didn't read Hebrew. [43:07-43:57]
• Did fundamentalism give you an edge at Princeton Seminary?
  • Yes; Bart’s advanced biblical training gave him an advantage over many students lacking similar experience. [26:20-27:36]
• Do you embrace evidence for an intelligent higher power?
  • Bart identifies as agnostic in knowledge (“I don’t know”) but atheist in belief (“I don’t believe there’s any higher power... I think this world is all there is.”) [47:45-49:06]

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Tone & Style

The conversation remains candid, reflective, and sometimes self-deprecating, with Bart Ehrman balancing both gratitude and critique regarding his fundamentalist background. The tone is warm, intellectually curious, and accessible—with Megan Lewis facilitating with empathy and humor.

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Final Thoughts

Bart Ehrman’s journey demonstrates how a fundamentalist start can, paradoxically, fuel a life of critical scholarship and public intellectualism. While he is clear about the drawbacks (narrow worldview, regressive social values, lack of broader humanities training), Ehrman also highlights the powerful work ethic, deep biblical expertise, and communication skills that his early religious experiences fostered. The episode ultimately suggests that even restrictive beginnings can be rechanneled toward understanding, nuance, and meaningful impact, though it's not a path he recommends.

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Next Episode Teaser

Topic: Why Did Paul Hate Christians?

• Bart will debunk common assumptions about Paul’s persecution of the early church. [50:46-51:24]

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Transcript

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[Megan Lewis]

Welcome to Ms. Quoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. The only show where a six time New York Times best selling author and world renowned Bible scholar uncovers the many fascinating little known facts about the New Testament, the historical Jesus and the rise of Christianity. I'm your host, Megan Lewis. Let's begin.

[Podcast Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome back to Misquoting Jesus. You might think that as an agnostic who deconverted from born again fundamentalism, but maybe doesn't see much value in his religious past. But was his born again experience the thing that sent him along this incredibly successful career path? Did fundamentalism actually improve his life and make him an even better scholar than he would have otherwise been? Before we get to that though, Bart, how are you doing? How is the world of research treating you?

[Bart Ehrman]

Oh yeah, no, the world of research is going well. I've been in London and for the last week I've actually like had nothing I had to do, which is so nice. And so I've been like reading books and things, which is very glorious. And so since I'm on leave this coming semester, I'm devoting myself a lot to doing this next book on the ethics of Jesus in my head. I'm calling it the Origins of Altruism. So for people who want to write in and say, yeah, actually evolutionary psychology has explained altruism. Yeah. So I know all that. So I'm going to be talking about how altruistic behavior entered into the Western conscience because there was altruism, of course, throughout human history. Otherwise we wouldn't be here as a species. If we are also self centered, we wouldn't have exist, survived. But my question is how ethical discourse and how ethical actions changed with the coming of Christianity. And so I'm working on that now and I'm, I'm going to be dealing with various issues in that book. But one thing I've gotten increasingly interested in is my recognition, my realization that the kinds of ethics that Jesus propounded himself got changed by his followers, some of them right after his death and others over the course of decades and centuries. So that in a variety of ways. But one thing is they came to be softened a bit. Jesus had a very rigorous ethic in many ways. I'll be trying to show in the book, and it's pretty clear from just reading the New Testament, but that his followers didn't sustain that kind of rigor. And one of my explanations is going to be is that Jesus had this apocalyptic vision that the kingdom of God was going to arrive very, very soon, and people needed to be ready for it. And over time, after his death, after some decades and centuries passed, people realized, yeah, it actually is probably not going to come next Thursday. It ended up changing how radically they understood his ethics. So that instead of, like, sell everything and give to the poor, they said, yeah, be generous.

[Podcast Host]

Maybe not everything everything, just some things.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

No. Already in the second century, you have these church fathers saying, look, he didn't mean it, because if he meant it, if he gave everything to the poor, then you wouldn't have anything, then you'd be poor. And not only that, but you didn't have anything to give to the poor anymore. And then you, you know, who's going to support the church if you give everything away? And so, you know, already in the

[Bart Ehrman]

second century, Clement of Alexandria actually has an entire sermon devoted.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so I'm interested in that kind

[Bart Ehrman]

of thing right now for my book. So. Yeah. How are things on your end?

[Podcast Host]

Good. I mentioned before we started recording, I have started a digital Hammurabi newsletter, which I am excited about, which is weird for me, because the regular commitment of writing a newsletter is something that I've always felt very uncomfortable about, because it means I have to actually sit down and carve out time to do a specific task, which I'm very bad at. But I've. I think I found a way to do it that I will enjoy writing it and including bits about what we're working on. We're putting in a recommendation, Josh's book recommendation, because he goes through so much academic material that he always has a book that he wants everybody to read. But then also things like a Sumerian proverb and an ancient piece of artwork that I think is particularly interesting and that people might like to know about, so.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, that sounds great.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I've been sitting and writing those. Yeah, it's fun.

[Bart Ehrman]

Is this a monthly thing or.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it will be a monthly thing.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. You know, the nice thing about what you do for digital Hammurabi and what we, you know, what I do with my books and my blog especially is if you're communicating with a General audience, you have to find the interesting stuff. And that means it's interesting for you too.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So it's not like doing like hardcore research, really.

[Bart Ehrman]

It's, it is not easy and it's usually not fun. I mean, it isn't kind of because, you know, we're passionate about it, but it's not. Yeah, but finding out what's really interesting about something then, then getting it out there, that's.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, showing, that's a whole different thing.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, good. That sounds great.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's going well. I haven't sent any yet, but optimistic.

[Bart Ehrman]

Who do they go to?

[Podcast Host]

We have a mailing list that people just sign up through our website if they're interested in. Kind of until now it's been mostly book releases, but I'd like to start making it more of a community type thing.

[Bart Ehrman]

Nice, nice. Okay, go Hammurabi. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely. Now we should talk about your life and your experiences, which is the topic of, of today's show. You've said here and elsewhere that you became a born again fundamentalist Christian around 15. How did your teenage life change following that experience?

[Bart Ehrman]

Ah, right, yes, good. You know, I was kind of a typical teenager in high school. I liked sports and I had buddies and friends and girlfriends and you know, I was kind of a typ guy and kind of partied on weekends. And when I was born again, that none of that really changed very much. But over time, as I got more and more serious about my faith, you know, I just became more kind of traditionally religious. I'd never really read the Bible before, never had like group prayer before. And so I started getting involved with those things. But I'd say it took a long time for it to have any kind of serious impact on my life. I mean, I continued, you know, I was on the debate team and working at that as a tennis team and played baseball. I was like, I was doing all that kind of stuff. Stuff I think apart from kind of personal conversations I had and maybe inner feelings, it didn't change my life that much as a teenager.

[Podcast Host]

What had been your kind of, I hesitate to use the word academic for a 15 year old or professional, but what had been your trajectory until that point? Were you planning already on academic studies or was it maybe an undergraduate degree? And then we'll see what happens?

[Bart Ehrman]

No, there's no way anybody on the planet would have thought I'd become an academic. You know, I was, I was reasonably smart and I got good grades. And for me, getting Good grades was competition. I mean, everything I did was competition. It still is. It's kind of ridiculous, but I, like, I'm, you know, and so getting good grades. For me, that was competitive. It's like, you know, winning a tennis match or something. And so. And so that's why I. I studied. I didn't study a lot, really. I just. But there was no. Nobody would have thought I'd become a scholar. And it never, ever would have occurred to me. I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. I mean, my. My father was a businessman, my mom a secretary. I thought I'd probably. I didn't know, go into business. You know, maybe I'd go into real estate, maybe selling insurance. I didn't know. I. I didn't have a very big world. I was in Lawrence, Kansas, which is a fantastic place, fantastic town. Had about maybe 40,000 people there at the time. The University of Kansas is there. And so I knew a lot of university kids. And so I probably don't have much of an excuse for not having a very big world, but I really didn't. I couldn't really think about what I might want to do for. I tried to think what I'd do for a living. I had no idea. But being a scholar, like, yeah, that wouldn't have ever occurred to me.

[Podcast Host]

So you went to Moody Bible Institute. Was this a direct result of your conversion to fundamentalism?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bart Ehrman]

And it was. The other thing that happened to me socially, as when I was still in high school, is that in addition to my friends who played sports and my friends on the debate team, and in addition to that, I kind of added this other group of people who were more interested in religion and committed to Christianity. And so, you know, prayer groups and Bible studies and things. And as I got increasingly serious about it, I got to know the person who was the head of the local Youth for Christ group, the Campus Life Youth for Christ group. And he was a winsome mid 20s, probably guy who had gone to Moody Bible Institute. And as I got more involved with this Campus Life group, he and I became close. And he. He convinced me that if I was going to be a serious Christian, I wouldn't go, you know, to Kansas University like most of my friends are doing. My debate friends are all going off to be debaters there. And I. You know, I thought maybe I'd do that. But he convinced me if I really wanted to be a serious Christian, I needed to go to a Christian school. And as a graduate of Moody, he thought that Moody was the best place in the world to go, and I had no clue. I mean, how would I know?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I knew nothing.

[Bart Ehrman]

So he took us on a tour, a few of us on a tour of Christian colleges, like up in, you know, in the Midwest and stuff. And. And that was the one that he had gone to. And. And he convinced me, look, this is hardcore. Moody Bible Institute's hardcore. It's not like, you know, kind of one of these kind of things where you take liberal arts and then get a little Christianity on the side. I mean, this is like. This is Bible study and theology, and this is, like, really serious. So if you want to be a serious Christian, this is what you do. Well, okay, I want to be a serious Christian.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's kind of the extent of my thought process.

[Podcast Host]

What was it being a student there? Did it kind of live up to the expectations that he'd given you?

[Bart Ehrman]

I'll tell you, I mean, it's a weird thing about my life is I've loved just about every epic. I really liked going to Moody Bible Institute. I loved it. I was passionate about it. And I thought that, you know, it was giving me just what I wanted. I mean, I had in high school, you know, I would take classes that, you know, I thought I'd get a good grade in and I'd get a good grade in it. But I wasn't really kind of passionate about much of anything really academically, except for debate. I was hugely passionate about debate academically, and that's what taught me how to do research, is my commitment to debate, because we were pretty hardcore on debate. So I had the skills at this point, but I didn't have any topic I was interested in. But now I'm a born again Christian who thinks the Bible is the inerrant word of God. And I wanted to study this thing like crazy. And so at Moody, I. I would take courses in, like, the Gospel of John, first semester, Gospel of John, entire semester, Gospel of John, or. And another biblical book that semester. And then, of course, on missions, you know, or a course on evangelism, whatever.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I mean, church history.

[Bart Ehrman]

There'd be these courses that are all related to Christianity. And since I was so gung ho about Christianity, I threw myself into the work unlike anything I'd ever done before, except kind of to a minor exception, debate. I tell you, it just made a big difference in my life.

[Podcast Host]

Do you feel like it gave you a good grounding for your future studies?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, in a number of ways. I mean, for one thing, because I was so passionate at Moody. Everybody's pretty passionate. You have to take classes on evangelism, you know, and on apologetics, how to defend the faith, and you have to, you have to engage in some kind of ministry every semester. And so like I was a chaplain at Cook County Hospital in Chicago, where Moody is. And I. One of the things everybody had to do is one of their semesters. They had to do door to door evangelism. And so they drive you out to some suburb in Chicago and you start banging on doors trying to convert people.

[Podcast Host]

I would not be good at that.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, there are a lot of people who are shy who didn't like that and a lot of us who were not shy who didn't really much like it. But it's, you know, what we had to do. There was a semester when I was a. As a counselor on the radio, Moody Bible Radio, where they play Christian music and have Christian shows and stuff. And people would call in and for advice, Christian advice. I was like 19 and I was doing things like talking people out of suicide and stuff. It's like I had no training for this. It was completely ridiculous in a way. But man sure introduced you to a

[Co-host or Interviewer]

different world from going out partying Saturday nights in high school.

[Podcast Host]

Did he give you any experience in more academic research or is this more of a. Ah, right.

[Bart Ehrman]

Theological question.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Experience. Oh, no, I like the question you answered also.

[Bart Ehrman]

Right. No, academically, it had a couple effects for me. One was the seriousness with which I took my academics. I said everybody was passionate. Just about everybody was passionate about it at Moody, about being there. But there weren't that many people who were academically driven. Most people were really interested in ministry of some kind. Evangelical Christian ministry. At that time, Moody Bible Institute only had a three year diploma. And so you didn't get a bachelor's degree. If you wanted a bachelor's, you'd have to transfer credits and finish out at some other school. So it was a three year diploma and a lot of people that was going to be their higher education and they were training to be missionaries or they were training to be pastors of evangelical churches where maybe you didn't even need a seminary degree or they were training. Well, people had different things. Women were not allowed to train to be pastors because it was very conservative evangelicals. I had a very close friend who wanted to take the preaching class and they wouldn't let her take it because, you know, women can't preach. Oh my God.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So most people weren't like that.

[Bart Ehrman]

But I was into the academic side and I was just enthralled with biblical studies and theology and church history and academic topics. And I studied like crazy because I just wanted to learn everything I could. I mean it was really pretty crazy. I would pull an all night miter probably once a week or once every other week just to study. So I was really. Yeah, I was really kind of hardcore into it.

[Podcast Host]

Not just for finals then, just generally.

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, not just for finals, although, you know, I wanted to get the good grades. But one of the things I did was we'd become convinced, my friends and I, I had some friends who were kind of interesting who like, we were interested in like how to memorize things. And so we did like, we learned all these mnemonic ways of learning things and we wanted to figure out how we could get by on as little sleep as possible so we'd have more time to do other. And so we had all these formula that we tried. You know, you sleep two hours a night and then take a 45 minute

[Co-host or Interviewer]

nap and you're fine, stuff like that. But I do all this time for studying. But then also we thought, I came

[Bart Ehrman]

to think that the mind, the brain is not something that is like a closed container that gets filled up. It's like a sponge that expands the more that's in it. I started memorizing books of the Bible, word for word in English translation so that I could recite them, you know, because I, I wanted to do everything I could to learn as much as I could, man. So I just. Yeah, so that helped.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's like, you know, if you work out all the time, like physically work

[Bart Ehrman]

out, like if you're press, if you're pumping iron all the time, even if you don't have start out with a great build, after a while those muscles are going to develop and the brain, it's not a muscle, but it's like a muscle that if you use your brain like really rigorously a lot, it changes and it changes you. So that when I was in high school, I was barely in the top 10% of my graduating class. I barely squeaked into the top 10%. But you know, I exercised my brain in a crazy way for three years. That was just the start. And already I started seeing the difference from friends at home who were at least as smart as me, but who hadn't been doing that.

[Podcast Host]

You must be a fantastic trivia partner.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, I'm terrible at Trivial Pursuit because for some reason I'm just not good at that kind of thing. I assume people will know what trivial Trivial Pursuit Was.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Maybe not these days, but there was

[Bart Ehrman]

a game that came out after Trivial Pursuit came out called Bible Trivia, and it was done by fundamentalists. And this game was set up to test your knowledge of Bible trivia.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, I was pretty good at that.

[Bart Ehrman]

There are only two people in the world who've beaten me in Bible trivia.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's pretty good.

[Podcast Host]

That's impressive. You go through Moody, and then fast forward a little bit. You are at Princeton Theological Seminary. Did being a fundamentalist impact your experiences there? Were you the only fundamentalist, or were there others studying there?

[Bart Ehrman]

There was a transition period that explains what happened to me at Princeton, because, as I said, you know, we couldn't get a bachelor's degree at Moody, so I decided to go to. I wanted to keep going. I decided already at Moody that I wanted to be a university professor. I started Moody when I was 17 years old, and my first semester, as I said, I had this class on the Gospel of John. This guy teaching the Gospel of John knows everything about the Gospel of John. I thought, man, this is amazing. After. About. After about a month or two, I said, you know, this guy's getting paid to do this. I want to do this. And so I decided that, wow, this is how you spend your life. Wow. But I decided early on that I didn't want to be one of these evangelical scholars who teaches at an evangelical school. So I didn't want to be a scholar among the evangelicals. I wanted to be an evangelical among the scholars. I wanted to teach in a secular university so that I could be an evangelical voice. You know, at the time, you know, I was completely ignorant. I kind of thought maybe, you know, I'd be able to convert students or something. I didn't. I. I was pretty ignorant. You know, obviously, I was going to continue on. And after Moody, for my bachelor's degree, I decided I wanted to go to Wheaton College in Illinois, which is an evangelical Christian school and a very fine school. I was in the liberal arts there. I had enough Bible and theology, in my opinion, at the time. And so I majored in English, and I took all sorts of other classes. You know, I took, you know, liberal arts courses. I took history and intellect, intellectual history, and, you know, I take things like art, art appreciation, music appreciation. I'd start learning about culture and did a lot of English and a bit of philosophy, and so. And I took Greek, you know, and so I started learning about classics, and I. I wasn't planning on that on. On that expanding my horizons. I was just planning to Get a degree so I could, you know, a good school, so I could get into a good graduate school. But it ended up making a huge difference when I went on then to do further work as a graduate student.

[Podcast Host]

So Princeton was not so much for culture shock. Having you didn't go directly from Moody, obviously into Princeton. You had a nice transition, which opens things up a little bit for you. So you were. It wasn't such a shock when you got to Princeton, right?

[Bart Ehrman]

When I was taking all these classes of Wheaton, they're, they're being taught by evangelicals and my friends are evangelicals. But it's not hardcore kind of fundamentalist like Moody was. And people liked to think at Wheaton and to reason and to understand. And at the time they advertised, I don't know if this is anywhere near true anymore, but at the time they advertised that per capita they were fourth in the country in the number of their graduates getting PhDs by percentage, including, you know, Ivy Leagues, Harvard, Yale undergraduates. Wheaton was the fourth in terms of percentage. And so it was rigorous and it was interesting. But they were smart people teaching non biblical subjects. And so that got me, that really started changing my perspective away from fundamentalism. I remained a very, very committed evangelical Christian. I was a youth pastor in a church for three years, my last year at Moody and two years at Wheaton. And it was an evangelical church in Chicago where I had a. Some youth groups that I ran and was really, really active in. But that did move me away from the fundamentalist thing. I think if I'd stayed in the fundamentalist circles, I would have probably gone to Dallas Theological Seminary rather than Princeton Theological Seminary. Those were my two choices, actually. I applied to both schools and I had to choose between them. But I chose Princeton because I wanted especially to work in the analysis of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. And the world expert in that taught at Princeton Seminary, Bruce Metzger. And I wanted to study with him and I got admitted there. And so, so I went there knowing full well that this is a theological seminary training Presbyterian ministers. I wasn't Presbyterian, never been in a Presbyterian church, knew nothing about it, but I knew it was, it was what I considered at the time liberal. And I thought, you know, I'm going to get qualified because I want to go on, I want to teach. I can either quiet, but I'm going to listen to them when they talk theology because they don't know what they're talking about.

[Podcast Host]

I'm going to go take advantage of the excellent education and that's it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, and ignore what they say. You know, Bible classes. I'm thinking, man, these Bible scholars, they

[Bart Ehrman]

don't know anything about the Bible.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

What do they know?

[Podcast Host]

So fundamentalism kind of gives you the impetus and the drive to go to Moody, which exposes you to all of this educational information, and you get really into research. Then you go to Moody. Not Moody, Wheaton. Sorry, too many cultures. Then we go to Wheaton. I wanted also to ask about your experience as a youth pastor, because Wheaton gives you this. It broadens your horizons. It kind of moves you away from. From the fundamentalism a little bit. But acting as a youth pastor, has that been a helpful experience? Has that informed how you now teach and lecture?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, I'll tell you, it made a huge difference for me. I was a very committed evangelical through those years that I was even at Wheaton. And as a youth pastor all three years, I still believed in converting people and helping them to commit to Christ. And one of the things I did as a youth pastor, one of the main things I did was education. So I would teach Sunday school to high school kids. I also started running Bible studies and I'd have, you know, I'd have kids, 10, 20 kids come to a Bible study. And for the course of my life, this was hugely important because I had to figure out how to make something that I was interested in from the kind of technical, biblical, scholarly kind of point. But, you know, fundamentalist scholarship make that interesting to, you know, a 14 year old. How do you do that? And so, like, I do a Bible study on Philippians and we do a four week thing, or I take one chapter a week. And then. And man, I just had to figure out constantly, how do you make this interesting? You know, how do you keep a 14 year old coming back and awake? And so that started the entire process for me of trying to figure out how to make difficult things simple and understandable and interesting. So it changed my life, really. Yeah. So the youth pastor thing was good. It also convinced me I did not want to work in a church. I did not want to become a pastor. It was a terrific church, a really great church. Trinity Covenant Church in Oak Lawn, Illinois. I loved it there. I loved the people there. We got along fantastically. It was great. But I also saw what happens in the pastor's office with crazy things that happen. And the things that pastors have to deal with are unbelievable. The amount of work they have to do, you just can't. You can't. You wouldn't imagine. You just think they get up and Preach for an hour or, you know, for 20 minutes every hour. How hard is that? Right. Oh, my God. And the stuff, the personal issues you've got to deal with in a church, who. So I, I realized, yeah, I'm not going to do this for a living.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Josh worked as an associate pastor for a couple of years, and some of the things that he helped people through, some of the things that he had to do as a pastor, it's really not just getting up and preaching. There is, there's a lot of parishioner involvement in that.

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, there is, and it. Parishioners are people. And so, you know, I'd be in the pastor's office who was a fantastic. His name was Evan Gordon. He was a fantastic human being and a terrific pastor and was not a fundamentalist at all. He was, he was a conservative Christian, but he was. Wasn't at all fundamental. But I, you know, the phone would ring, he'd pick it up and talk for a few minutes. I'd get half the conversation, he'd hang up and explain it to me. And I'd be thinking, oh, my God, you gotta be kidding me. Really? Yeah. Crazy stuff.

[Podcast Host]

No, not. Absolutely not. Not a career I think I would want to do. So do you think that you would have had the career that you, you do if you hadn't gone down this fundamentalist Christian pathway first?

[Bart Ehrman]

No, I don't think I would have.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I've.

[Bart Ehrman]

If I had gone to college, if I'd gone to Kansas University, I would have probably tried to make the debate team and probably just slosh my way through an English major or something. And I don't know what would have happened. I don't know what have happened. But I actually do have a couple friends who are in ACT who went into academics. On my debate, there were six of us in the final kind of debate team that were like the final six, and we three of them became academics, but not in liberal arts so much. I don't know what would have happened to me. But no, the Bible thing set me off and, you know, so I, I kind of geared up at Moody. And the, the other advantage I had was not simply that I worked hard and developed. Developed academic interests, but also I became really knowledgeable about the Bible. When I went to Princeton Theological Seminary, it's training Presbyterian ministers. But the people who are there didn't go to Bible colleges and things. They're just men and women who went to colleges. Usually. They usually didn't major in religion. A few did, but they, they had other things but they felt called to ministry. They were at a real disadvantage when it came to someone like me and some of my friends at Princeton who had this training, because for one thing, at Princeton Seminary, all the Presbyterians had to take a Bible exam that they had to study like crazy for. We called it the baby Bible exam because it's like, it's basic stuff.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And this stuff, man, I had known for five years or three, four years already. And they, man, they didn't know any

[Bart Ehrman]

of this stuff, and so they never did. But, you know, because ministry, as we said, isn't about. Ministry is basically not about biblical exegesis per se, just as it's not just about preaching a sermon once a week. There's a lot, a lot, a lot to it. But I had an advantage there. As I went through Princeton, you know, I developed a greater and greater interest in my Greek skills, which I. And language skills generally. And so I started learning other languages. I had to learn German because I wanted to do a PhD. I took classes in German at Princeton University in the summer. Kind of a crash course, a crazy, crazy crash course. Taught myself French, taught myself Latin, taught myself Coptic, you know, like I was doing that kind of thing. But by that time I had the intellectual interests and at Princeton then I started getting a sense of scholarship. And it took me a long time to kite. Get into the. The mode of actually doing historical scholarship rather than fundamentalist, having fundamentalist assumptions about the Bible. But that combination of my biblical training, my hard work ethic, and my introduction to really serious biblical scholarship, all of that's made the most enormous difference.

[Podcast Host]

Had you had any interest in foreign languages or ancient languages as a high schooler or, Or a late, late teens? No, no.

[Bart Ehrman]

God, I was awful. I got kicked out of my French class because I was a smart aleck and the teacher got fed up with me finally. And it's like with no abilities in languages at all, I'm still not, you know, I have friends who really are gifted linguistically or philologians, and. And I'm not. I mean, I, I work hard at it. I work hard at it, but it's because I love it, not because I'm particularly talented.

[Podcast Host]

I know that feeling. So fundamentalism gave you the drive to study intensively, the forum to develop your skills as a communicator, and maybe the impetus to really delve deeply into biblical history and the biblical texts. Were there any downsides to your educational experiences as a fundamentalist?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, I'd say. I mean, you know, at the time,

[Bart Ehrman]

as I Said, you know, I, I've loved almost every epic. I loved going to Moody and thought it was the greatest thing that ever happened. And then I went to Wheaton. I thought this is the best evangelical college and this is a great. Went to Princeton Seminary. Like everybody else who went to Princeton Seminary, I thought I was hot stuff because I have Princeton Seminary. Princeton Seminary is not the same school as Princeton University. They started out the same. In fact, Princeton University started out as a training place for pastors, but they had split a long time ago, so they're across the street basically, and you can take classes at both places. But it was, was, you know, it's not under the aegis of Princeton University,

[Co-host or Interviewer]

but it's a, you know, it's a

[Bart Ehrman]

really, really good academic place. And so I was very, I was very, very pleased to be there as well. So there are a lot of difficulties with my fundamentalist upbringing and my Christian training. So I did, you know, three years at Moody. I did two years of Wheaton Princeton Seminary, the Master's of divinity degree, that, that's the training degree to be a minister. It was the only degree on offer at Princeton Seminary for college grads. And so I did that. That's a three year degree. And then I wanted to continue on working in Greek manuscript studies. And so I stayed on. I applied and got into the PhD program to work with Metzger, who was a very, very famous, justly famous scholar, I think without doubt the greatest textual scholar in the country ever. And the great, you know, one of the two greatest in the world at the time. And so, so I, you know, I wanted to study with him and I did. So I, that was another four years. So altogether my higher education was 12 years from high school. And in all those 12 years, I never set foot in a secular classroom. The first time I ever entered a secular higher education classroom was the day I started to teach at Rutgers University.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It was really kind, interesting for one thing, like, just on the practical level,

[Bart Ehrman]

I didn't know how to start a class.

[Podcast Host]

Did you open with prayer before you open with prayer?

[Bart Ehrman]

Man, you know, I ain't doing that.

[Podcast Host]

Probably shouldn't do that at rug.

[Bart Ehrman]

I do.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I have no idea how you start a class. So like I was just winging it and so. But, you know, that, that all turned out fine.

[Bart Ehrman]

The big downside related to that is I am a very, very big proponent of the humanities now, of the liberal arts generally. And I had very, very bad education in the humanities at Moody. We had classes on English, but it was so we could learn how to communicate the gospel better. We had classes in history, but they were history of the church. We had classes on theology, but not philosophy, with classes in music booths like how to conduct church choir. Seriously. And so I was so uneducated except for my two years of Wheaton, which were valuable, but it wasn't enough. And so basically I'm self taught in almost all the areas that I'm really interested in. I learned to love learning, I learned to love reading. Taking my English classes taught me to love reading. But at the time at Wheaton, unlike now, I imagine the emphasis was so much on reading and kind of aesthetic appreciation. It wasn't really on literary criticism or literary theory or cultural theory or anything like that. And so once again, you know, I, I learned a passion for it, but I didn't, I didn't really get the tools even to do humanities research very much, except for history. I did get history and I got languages and I got classics and so I got. So that part's good. But you know, I really wish that I had had more training because my, I love classical music and it's all stuff I just, you know, have to teach myself. I love art, I love, you know, things like the impressionist, you know, I like whatever I mean Rubens and Raphael and. But it's like it's all self taught. Yeah. So that's, that's a real downside for me.

[Podcast Host]

I think everyone probably knows the answer to this, having listened to the conversation. But before we end, I just wanted to ask, do you feel like your experiences as a fundamentalist were overall a net positive in your life?

[Bart Ehrman]

I don't know how to answer that actually, because when I left fundamentalist circles I kind of, you know, I became an evangelical. Over time I became an increasingly liberal evangelical, probably through my master's program, my three years master's program. I remained an evangelical and active in an evangelical church, but I really didn't like fundamentalist understandings of the faith. And then when I went to Princeton, I became non evangelical eventually. And then eventually I left the faith after my PhD, PhD and I think as I moved into kind of more liberal evangelical circle, then into more liberal Christian circles, I had a real knee jerk reaction against anything fundamentalist that I've had to fight most of my life because I realized just how dangerous it was for me and how harmful it has been to so many people that I've seen hurt by it. People who are lesbian or gay women kind of in general. There are a lot of perspectives that came with it and people just with closed minds, people who just think, you know, the Bible's right, the world was created in six 24 hour days. That seems kind of like an innocent thing to say. And you think, well, okay, it's dumb, but there's no harm in it. But there actually is harm in it because you can't understand who we are if you take the Bible literally like that. And it does lead to very, leads to very different ways of understanding the world and our place in it and to our social agenda, political agenda. And I really, you know, and I really do regret not having a fuller education. On the other hand, if I'd had a regular liberal arts education, I wouldn't be doing what I do now. And I love what I do now. So in a way I can't fault at all my fundamentalist upbringing. You know, I wasn't raised that way, but my, you know, from the time I was born again at 15, I can't really fault it because, you know, I really love what I'm doing now and I wouldn't be doing it otherwise. So that part's true. But you know, and I guess it's one of these things, you just have to take the bad with the good and the good with the bad. So it goes. I don't recommend it as a way to a path.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I don't recommend choosing your career when you're 17. A lot of things I don't recommend.

[Bart Ehrman]

I don't recommend fundamental sexual ethics, for

[Co-host or Interviewer]

example, fundamentalist understandings of women. I mean there's all sorts of things I don't recommend that I went through.

[Bart Ehrman]

And if I didn't go through it, I wouldn't be who I am. So, you know, what can I say? I wish I could answer the question.

[Podcast Host]

Well, thank you for the answer that you did give that was very illuminating. We are going to take a quick ad break and then we'll be back with a weekly update.

[Megan Lewis]

Most people know many of the stories of Genesis. The Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph. But do you know what scholars say about those accounts? What archaeology, science and history can reveal about them? What their significance could be, even if they aren't literally true. Enter Bible scholar Bart Ehrman's captivating online course in the history, legend and myth in Genesis. In six enlightening lessons, you'll journey through questions like did Genesis borrow its stories from other cultures? Are these accounts historical or legendary? And who were the real authors behind the Pentateuch? Whether you approach Genesis as a believer, a skeptic, or simply a seeker of knowledge. This course will challenge your understanding of these ancient narratives. It's a unique opportunity to navigate the complexities of the Bible's most famous book. Don't miss out on this intellectual adventure. Visit barterman.com Genesis to learn more or sign up today and be sure to use discount code mjpodcast for a special discount.

[Bart Ehrman's Weekly Update Announcer]

This is Bart's weekly update where we get to catch up on all the latest about Dr. Ehrman's book releases, speaking engagements, ehrmanblog.org happenings and online course launches.

[Podcast Host]

So, but I would like to hear more about the course on Matthew that you have coming up 3rd and 4th of February. Could you give us a teaser of one of the lectures?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bart Ehrman]

That's an interesting way to get to it. So as I said, it's going to be eight lectures and they'll each be on a different topic. But one of the issues that everybody notices who studies Matthew is its kind of peculiar relationship to Judaism because Matthew is this gospel that is often called the most Jewish of the gospels because Jesus is being presented as somebody who fulfills all the Jewish prophecies. He's the Jewish Messiah. He sent from the Jewish God to the Jewish people to fulfill the Jewish law. And in Matthew, he tells his followers to follow the Jewish law, to follow it even better than the scribes and the Pharisees. And he never says things like stop keeping kosher, you know, and yeah, don't worry about keeping the Sabbath. He doesn't say things like that. He tells them to keep the law, in fact, to even keep it better than the Jewish leaders. And so it seems very Jewish, right? But then it's also thought of as one of the most anti Jewish gospels because man, Jesus attacks Jews and seems to be attacking kinds of, you know, Judaism. I mean, so the most telling part is at the end when Jesus is on trial. Pilate. This is only in Matthew. Pilate declares Jesus innocent. And the Jewish crowd, the entire Jewish crowd cries out that they want him crucified. And Pilate washes his hands, says, man, I'm innocent of this man's blood. And the crowd, it says, all the people, the entire people of the Jews cries out, his blood be upon us and our children. And so the Jewish people are taking responsibility for Jesus death and passing the responsibility on to their descendants. This is the verse that was used for all these hateful purposes throughout the Middle Ages down to today, calling Jews Christ killers. That's Matthew. Well, if Matthew's pro Jewish why is he anti Jewish?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so this is it's one of

[Bart Ehrman]

the mysteries of Matthew and part of my one of my lectures is going to work be working out how Matthew pulls that together in a very interesting way.

[Podcast Host]

That sounds absolutely fascinating. Thank you for sharing. And for those who missed our announcements last week, this is the genius of what scholars say about the first Gospel. It's Barth's new course. It will be available from the 3rd and 4th of February. There are eight lectures. The price is $59.95. As the like the full price, this includes live attendance to the lectures via Zoom. You can't like attend in person, but you can attend online Q A participation and then of course lifetime access to the course. There is also early bird pricing available of 49.95 that's available through January 28th. And on top of that you can use the code mjpodcast for an additional discount. You can get more details and buy access over at www.bartehrman.com forward/Matthew. And again, the early bird pricing does run out on January 28, so probably just like pause the podcast now, hop over to the website, buy it, and then come back while we do our questions from listeners.

[Bart Ehrman's Weekly Update Announcer]

Now it's time for Questions from Listeners where Bart answers real questions submitted by misquoting Jesus fans. If you'd like to support submit a question for future segments, please visit bart erman.com Ask Bart

[Podcast Host]

but we have some fantastic listeners questions this week. As always. I know I say that every single time, but it's always true. Question 1 Did you believe in eternal conscious torment when you were a Christian? If you did, and looking back now, do you see any contradiction between eternal conscious torment and and an eternally loving creator?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah. So in relationship to what we were talking about when I was a fundamentalist at Moody, I absolutely believed in eternal conscious torment. That people who didn't believe in Jesus were going to go to hell and would be punished forever, horribly and forever. Forever. Like not 20 trillion years, but, you know, forever. That was one of the reasons I became so avidly concerned about evangelism. Why I wanted to convert my family, my friends, people I didn't know, because I was concerned for their eternal welfare, because I was sure that's what the Bible taught and we had to wrestle with things. What about children who haven't accepted Christ yet? What about people who grew up in a context where they've never heard of Jesus, which is the vast majority of the human race? Do they all go to hell? Are they tormented? And many of my friends said, yes, I'm sorry, they do. And I probably said that myself for a while, you know. By the way, I do have this book on this topic, Heaven and Hell, a history of the afterlife. So it's called Heaven and Hell. And it explains where these views came from. Because I argue in the book that they're not in the Old Testament, they're not what Jesus taught. So where'd they come from? Did I, though at the time think that this was contradictory to the love of God, the idea that God is all loving? And I didn't think it was contradictory at the time. I thought that God was not only all loving, but he was also just. And his justice requires this penalty for people who don't accept Christ. And if somebody would say, well, is it just that God would torment forever somebody who's never even heard of Christ, not somebody who's rejected him, but somebody who hasn't heard, I'd say, well, I don't understand all the ways of God, but it appears that is the case.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But today you asked me, does that

[Bart Ehrman]

contradict the idea of a loving God?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yes, it does.

[Bart Ehrman]

Of course it does. Hers. So my view has changed.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you. In a previous episode, Bart mentioned that in one of the more recent biblical translations, in Isaiah 7:14, the word virgin was switched to young woman because it was more aligned to the original meaning of the Hebrew. But in an episode about Matthew, Bart then says that in the Gospel, Jesus is born from a virgin to fulfill. Isaiah 7:14. How did the writer of Matthew get virgin from his sources if the word should more accurately be translated as young woman?

[Bart Ehrman]

Right. So the deal is that Matthew is not reading the Hebrew form of Isaiah. Matthew probably doesn't know Hebrew. The original Hebrew says that a young woman has conceived and will bear a son. Matthew's not reading that. He's reading the Greek translation of the Old Testament that was used widely throughout the Jewish world at the time outside of Israel. He's reading the Greek translation. The Greek translation translates the Hebrew word young woman as parthenos, which can also mean young woman, but can also mean virgin young woman who's never had sex, or any woman who's never had sex. And so Matthew thinks that the word is parthenos, and he takes it to mean virgin. And so that's why he thinks Jesus fulfills it, because Jesus was born of a woman who had never had sex.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you very much. I recently read a book and the author submits that God is attributed as calling itself the Lord, whose name is jealous. Specifically this Person writes that Exodus 34:14 should be translated as for you shall worship no other gods, because the Lord whose name is jealous is a jealous God. Is that an accurate translation or is that subject to debate?

[Bart Ehrman]

I don't know, because I don't have a Hebrew Bible sitting in front of me.

[Podcast Host]

Why not?

[Bart Ehrman]

I'm afraid I haven't memorized the verse

[Co-host or Interviewer]

in Hebrew, so frankly, I don't know.

[Bart Ehrman]

It sounds a little bit odd to me. But, you know, a lot of things do sound odd to me that are right. So I don't. I. Frankly, I'm sorry. I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

No apologies. I should have sent that to you ahead of time.

[Bart Ehrman]

No, no, that's fine. It's. You know, we can. We could put it in stump, Bart, and then I'll look it up.

[Podcast Host]

Perfect. According to quote, unquote common knowledge, Jesus was 33 years old when he died, whereas most academics seem to agree on around 30. Is there any logic behind the exact age of 33, other than it being as many threes as possible?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, you know, is there any logic behind saying around 30? That's both are questions, because why do scholars say that? And so I'll tell you why they say 33, and it's related to why scholars say 30. Neither logic is very compelling. The Gospel of Luke is our only gospel that gives us any indication of Jesus age during his ministry. After Jesus is baptized. Luke says that he was about 30 at the time. Luke does not indicate how long his ministry lasted. Either does Mark or Matthew. In Mark, which was the source of Matthew and Luke, the gospel begins with Jesus baptism. And it appears that this is sometime in the fall because the fields are ready to be harvested. And so it's in the fall. And then after that, in Mark, everything happens very quickly. One of Mark's favorite words is euthus in Greek, which means immediately. So paragraph after paragraph will begin immediately Jesus did this immediately he did that immediately he did this other thing. And so it's bang, bang, bang kind of action. It ends at a Passover feast after all these immediately passovers in the spring. So it looks like in Mark that it's a matter of ministry going from the fall to the spring. So under. Under half a year. If Luke is right that he was 30, then he would die when he was 30 or 31. But the gospel of John, which does not mention his age, has Jesus ministering over the course of three different Passover feasts. Because during his ministry there are three different passovers mentioned. Well, Passover is an annual feast, and so it's got to be. If there are three of them, then it's got to be over two years. Because if you. The first one is begin, then the middle and the end, you'd have two years. And people assume it's longer than that. They usually round it off to three years that the ministry is. So if he started at 30, according to Luke, around 30, and he ministered for three years, according to John, then you get 33. And so that's just conflating those two accounts. Historically, I think it's impossible to say how old Jesus was. We say around 30 just for convenience, but we have no idea. Was he in his early 20s when he was he in his late 40s? How would Luke know? He was about 30. Luke is writing 65 years or so after Jesus death, who gave him his age. And so I think it's guesswork on the part of Luke, which means it's guesswork on the. On our part as well.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you very much. One final question before we wrap up for the day. Since Barthes is an atheist, agnostic, does he embrace some evidence of an intelligent higher power that holds the universe together?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, good question. As an agnostic, I say, look, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think anybody knows, even though most people think they do know. People will write me emails saying, oh, no, I know, I don't know, and I don't think anyone else knows. Do I embrace the idea? No. That's why I'm an atheist. In terms of my knowledge, I'm agnostic. I don't know. In terms of my belief, I'm atheist. I don't believe that there's any higher power in the universe. I think that everything that exists in our universe came about starting with the Big Bang. And you ask, well, what was before the Big Bang? I've been Stephen Hawkins, I don't know. One physicist put it, it's like asking, what's before the Big Bang? It doesn't make any sense because time literally begins with the Big Bang. So there's nothing before the Big Bang in terms of time. It's kind of like asking, if you're on the North Pole, what happens when you go north?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

There is no north if you're at the North Pole.

[Bart Ehrman]

And so there's nothing before the Big Bang. Well, how can something come out of nothing? Well, you know, physicists actually have explanations for that, but I'm just a simple scholar of ancient Christianity, so I don't know, but I don't believe that it's proof that there's a greater divine power in the universe. And so I personally think that this world is all there is without a higher power.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you very much. On audience as always, thank you so much for your questions, but before we finish for the week, would you mind just summarizing what we spoke about?

[Bart Ehrman]

Well, for me, this is an interesting episode because I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly before. That the upside of my having been a fundamentalist, going through a fundamentalist Bible college, Moody Bible Institute, and then an evangelical college, Wheaton, and only changing gradually over time. And was there any benefit to that? And I was pointing out that, you know, I wouldn't be who I am today without that. So it's a little bit hard for me to condemn it because it's, I have a great life. And without that, I wouldn't have this great life. I'd have some other kind of life. Maybe it'd be great, maybe not. On the other hand, I do feel some kind of resentments about my education. I think I was misled in many ways, and I wish I had had a better liberal arts education and sciences and everything else people normally study. So I have regrets. But on the whole, you know, I'm glad I am who I am. And without that background, I wouldn't be here. And so there are, there are plus sides to it.

[Podcast Host]

Audience, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe to make sure that you don't miss future episodes. Remember that you can use the code njpodcast for a discount on all of Bart's courses over at www.bartlmann.com. and that includes his upcoming course on on the Gospel of Matthew. Early Bird pricing is good through January 28th, and MJ Podcast will give you an additional discount on top of that. You can Access that at www.bartoman.com. matthew misquoting Jesus will be back next week, but what are we talking about next time?

[Bart Ehrman]

Yeah, so next week we're dealing with an interesting topic that I think most people don't have the right answer to, including most scholar friends of mine. The question has to do with the Apostle Paul before he converted to be a follower of Jesus, before he himself became a Christian. And the issue we're dealing with is why did Paul hate Christians?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Well, and people, people think, well, it's

[Bart Ehrman]

kind of obvious, right? No, actually, it's not that obvious. And so that's what we're, that's what we're going to be dealing with what led up to Paul's persecution and probably get into a bit. But what does persecution actually entail?

[Podcast Host]

Thank you so much. Please join us then. And goodbye.

[Megan Lewis]

This has been an episode of Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman. We'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday, so please be sure to subscribe to our show for free on your favorite podcast listening app or on Bart Ehrman's YouTube channel so you don't miss out. From Bart Ehrman and myself, Megan Lewis. Thank you for joining us.