Podcast
More or Less
Hosted by Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin · EN
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
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36episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
The New Startup Stack: One Founder + Agents | Henrik Werdelin (Audos) and Ben Broca (Polsia)
Mar 2700:54:01Summary readyJess and Brit take the reins on this week's More or Less — and they're not exactly missing their husbands. They're joined by Henrik Werdelin (Audos), who's building a platform that takes solo founders from zero to funded company using AI agents, and Ben Broca (Polsia), a literal one-human, zero-employee founder who argues AGI is already here. What follows is a sharp, funny debate about whether solo "donkeycorns" are the future of entrepreneurship, where AI actually hits its limits, and why defensibility in an AI world might come down to the most analog thing of all — knowing yourself and the humans you serve.Chapters:1:05 — Britt & Jess take over More or Less3:15 — Meet Henrik Werdelin (Audos) & Ben Broca (Polsia)5:00 — The Donkeycorn Era: Solo founders making millions with AI8:15 — "AGI Is Here" — Ben's case for one founder, zero employees10:30 — Jess vs. Ben: "My Claude can't remember" / "Skill issue"17:00 — When AI suggested fecal transplant businesses (Henrik's wild early experiments)19:00 — Relationship Capital: The real moat in an AI world23:00 — Building an economy, not a tool — Ben's vision for Polsia25:30 — Will AI democratize opportunity or just commoditize it?32:00 — Bot Etiquette: When your AI emails psychics on your behalf40:00 — The Sora Shutdown: "It's all just electricity"42:30 — Is speed the only moat? Anthropic vs. OpenAI46:30 — The Brain Gym: Why knowing yourself matters more than ever52:00 — Wrap: SpaceX IPO, Aura IPO, and "Me, My Customer, and AI"We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/x5ybaEqOEsUConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryNvidia's GTC, Apple Blocking Vibe-Coding Apps, Meta's Rogue AI Agent
Mar 2000:58:55Summary readyIt’s going to be a dense episode on OpenClaw—and another classic example of how skeptical Sam is about its future, battling against Dave. The episode starts with Dave’s announcement: The OpenClaw Foundation is now a chartered Delaware nonprofit. Then: GTC. Jessica hits the floor, takes seven selfies, and watches Jensen go for three hours with no notes. Dave explains why Nvidia gave OpenClaw 30 minutes of keynote time: NemoClaw, OpenShell, enterprise guardrails, local models, on-prem everything. Jessica breaks down The Information’s story about a rogue AI agent tripping internal security at Meta—which becomes the perfect setup for a broader point: trust isn’t a feature; it’s the entire game. Then Apple. BitRig—built by the people who literally created SwiftUI—has been stuck in App Store review since November because Guideline 2.5.2 says apps can’t download and execute code that changes functionality. The security logic tracks. Apple’s selective enforcement history? Less so. The crew closes with the part nobody’s ready for: Morin’s 11-year-old just formed his first LLC for a vibe-coded iOS game, and a group of 12-year-olds at an AI school in Austin out-shipped every adult developer at ClawCon.Chapters:02:14 - NVIDIA GTC Preview & Episode Roadmap02:54 - The Rise of the "Master of Bots" Role04:39 - Bot Anxiety & the Luxury AI vs. Cheap AI Divide08:55 - NVIDIA GTC: Jensen as AI's Storyteller-in-Chief17:21 - Nemo Claw, OpenShell & NVIDIA's Big OpenClaw Moment23:02 - What Even Is OpenClaw? Sam Challenges Dave29:51 - Breaking News: Rogue AI Agent Triggers Meta Security Alert38:54 - OpenAI's Enterprise Pivot & the Anthropic Revenue Race43:00 - Apple vs. Vibe Coding Apps: The App Store Bottleneck51:34 - Kids, Claws & Cool Family Tech (Board.fun, Next Playground)We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PYJawV55QcUConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryAnthropic’s Bet on Coding Is Working (OpenAI Shopping Pivot, A16Z’s Top 50 List, $1B Tennis Channel)
Mar 1300:58:42Summary readyIt’s an AI-heavy episode with real stakes: Jessica digs into OpenAI’s evolving approach to shopping and why “closing the loop” on commerce could be the proving ground for consumer monetization. The group sparrs over charts: OpenAI vs. Anthropic annualized revenue, what “slope” investors actually care about, and whether Anthropic’s developer-first strategy (code, tokens, and high ARPU) is the smarter path than consumer mindshare.Sam argues that “intelligence” is heading toward a global, frictionless commodity market (bad for margins, great for usage) and introduces the idea of “dark pools” (proprietary access/data/relationships) as the only durable moat. Dave counters with the more optimistic take: AI is collapsing the line between “consumer” and “developer,” turning everyone into a builder, and launching a new creative medium (with examples spanning from software to film). Brit adds fuel with “nano-targeted” commerce and a tour through A16Z’s Top 50 GenAI web products list, highlighting both mainstream shifts and the internet’s… more ‘unexpected’ categories.Finally: a truly out-of-left-field deal pitch from Jess: should someone buy the Tennis Channel for ~$1B? Plus a rapid-fire pop culture close (Kelce’s return, Oscars bets, and what everyone’s watching) before Sam heads back to the sauna.Chapters:0:00 — Intro & Sam's Sauna Hat1:33 — First-Ever MOL Podcast Ad3:54 — ChatGPT's Shopping Pivot7:19 — The Chart: OpenAI vs Anthropic Revenue11:52 — The Slope: Linear or Super Linear?16:10 — Commerce Is Bad. Attention Is Good.19:04 — AI Is Turning Everyone Into a Builder20:15 — "$1B Raised, $900M spent on Inference"23:17 — AI Is Worse Than the Cable Business35:58 — Dark Pools: Death of the Open Marketplace40:45 — The P50 Problem: What Happens to Average People?42:38 — "Software Is Totally Commoditized"45:43 — Brit's Bot Corner: Anime Husband Chatbots 50:44 — Should You Buy the Tennis Channel for $1B?54:22 — Pop Culture CornerWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodOn demand reactions powered by AI: https://molchat.ai/ Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryFire Sam Altman, The End of Software Engineers, and Why AI Is All Narrative
Mar 600:51:57Summary readyThis week the squad breaks down the Anthropic vs OpenAI drama (Fire Sam Altman is trending again), debates whether Apple is quietly winning the AI race by spending $0 while everyone else burns $100 billion, and confronts the question no one in Silicon Valley wants to answer: why aren't 200,000 software engineers talking about losing their jobs? Sam's answer: "Because it would be to admit you're in the 200,000 getting fired, not the 200,000 getting paid more." Plus: is China winning the open source AI phenomenon, is a recession coming (Lux Capital thinks so), and how Sam believes “code is just content” despite having built six apps in a week while on conference calls, including an AI clone of the podcast using everyone's real voices. It’s your weekly dive of More or Less. Chapters: 1:30 — Fire Sam Altman Trending Again: Dario's Leaked Slack Memo10:15 — Sam's Vibe Coding Week: 6 Apps Including AI Versions of the Hosts17:00 — Why AI Content Tends to Zero20:00 — Apple M5 Chip: The Local AI Inference Play23:30 — Block Cuts 40% of Workforce 25:30 — Will 200,000 Bay Area Software Engineers Lose Their Jobs? 30:00 — "Code Wins Arguments — But Now Everyone Can Code"34:30 — Josh Wolfe's (Lux Capital) Recession Warning Email 36:30 — The Triangle Trade: DC, Silicon Valley & Wall Street's Narrative Collusion39:00 — Yemen/Houthi Strike & Defense Tech41:00 — Is Open Source AI a Chinese Phenomenon?46:00 — The Second Wave: Agents Are the Website of This Era49:00 — David's Protein Ice Cream We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/UIdKqkNCymQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryApple, OpenAI & Why Nobody Makes Money in AI | The SaaS Apocalypse
Feb 2700:47:33Summary readyStarting with a mini celebration: Dave defends his ski racing crown, before Sam declares software dead and capitalism broken. Even among GPs at Upfront Summit, the mood is uncertain: nobody knows whether to invest in software anymore, and many are quietly struggling to raise.The debate heats up over whether AI will democratize software creation or just accelerate capitalism's race to zero margins. Sam argues that when intelligence becomes abundant, it becomes worthless, making the entire AI industry, and by extension Silicon Valley, "pretty bad business." Dave counters that we're about to see a Cambrian explosion of software creators, finally giving billions of people agency over their digital lives.Plus: whether Stripe should buy PayPal during this opportunistic Trump-administration window, Gen Z panic-buying original iPods, Sam's shitposting-to-funding pipeline, and whether OnlyFans has the best KYC in fintechChapters:7:24 - Upfront Summit: Where Are All the LPs?10:49 - Are VCs Still Investing in Software?12:04 - Slow Ventures Going Contrarian: Investing While Others Freeze13:27 - When Intelligence Goes to Zero: Why AI is Bad Business15:53 - Polsia: $100K to $700K ARR in One Week (AI Agents Only)19:39 - Capitalism's Black Hole: AI Makes Markets Too Efficient25:00 - Creator Fund Thesis: Investing in Cults, Not Content28:20 - Who Makes Money When Margins Hit Zero?34:41 - Silicon Valley's Advantage is DEAD (The Magic Wizard Hat)37:35 - Who Should Buy PayPal? (Stripe's One-Shot Window)42:11 - Agentic Commerce: Do Payment Networks Even Matter?45:18 - OpenAI Smart Speaker: Eddie Cue's Son Working on It46:51 - Gen Z Buying Original iPods: The Analog RebellionWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryOpenClaw vs Meta vs OpenAI: The Personal Agent Wars Heat Up
Feb 2000:56:31Summary readyIn this episode of More or Less, we go from Sam's urgent care drama to the hottest debates in AI. Dave dives into his news about joining the OpenClaw Foundation board as the fastest-growing open source project in internet history faces a new chapter. While the OpenClaw founder is heading to OpenAI, Meta is launching competing agents, and the battle for personal AI is officially ON. How the "Internet of Putting iPads on Things" era returning, Anthropic vs Pentagon drama, whether AI intelligence will become worthless like cheap electricity, and why your 'normie' friends will be sending you their vibe-coded apps within 12 months.Chapters:3:02 Sam's Ski Injury Saga 5:00 OpenClaw Founder Going To OpenAI & Dave's Foundation Role 8:07 OpenClaw vs. Manus (On-Device vs. Cloud)11:02 Vibe Coding: Building an App a Day12:03 Meta vs. OpenAI Rivalry 22:00 The Fundraising Market: Mega Rounds & Narrative Capitalism27:04 The Big Debate: Bay Area Engineers in 3 Years 41:01 Anthropic vs. The Pentagon45:01 Intelligence as a Commodity53:50 Tennis with Madison Keys plug We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/3CewrGGMjRIConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryWhy OpenAI Can't Win The Decentralized AI Future (OpenClaw, Apple's Win, X.AI Exodus)
Feb 1301:00:40Summary readyWe're recording this from Jackson Hole after three days of wheeling and dealing—and yes, canceling meetings for powder. This week we're going deep on OpenClaw. The meetup had 1,500 people show up (Kevin Rose, Marissa Mayer, Ashton Kutcher were some notable guests). And now we're all spending thousands of dollars a month on AI agents we've named after Friends characters while debating whether "developer" is even a job title anymore.We talk about:• Why founders are working 24/7 and possibly burning out• The decentralized AI future (and why it's not great for OpenAI)• Dark software factories where only agents write code• Whether everyone's jobs are about to disappear (spoiler: we disagree)• The SaaS-pocalypse coming for legacy software• Personal AI sovereignty and why Apple's just sitting back laughingAlso: Google's CC assistant is… fine? And we have strong opinions about Heated Rivalry.Chapters:0:00 - Intro: Skiing in Jackson Hole2:30 - Conference Takeaways: Founders Are Working Relentlessly 7:15 - AI Burnout & the 24/7 Work Cycle12:40 - Naming Your AI Agents (Friends Edition)15:20 - How Much Are You Spending on Bots?18:45 - Google CC Assistant Review22:10 - OpenClaw Meetup: 1500 People Show Up28:30 - What Even Is a Developer Anymore?35:50 - OpenAI vs Decentralized AI: The Big Debate42:15 - Personal AI & Data Sovereignty47:20 - Dark Software Factories & Agentic Engineering52:10 - Are All the Jobs Going Away?55:40 - The SaaS Apocalypse58:20 - Pop Culture: Heated Rivalry, Nancy Guthrie Case, StrangersWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/KUA7ue5vB1EConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummarySpaceX + xAI Merger, Google Earnings, and and the Bot-Filled Internet
Feb 600:50:25Summary readyThis week on More or Less, three-quarters of the squad goes full AI-agent mode with Morin’s ClawCon, Sam’s LinkedIn bots, and Brit’s bot-agent-supervisor. We kick things off with The Information’s breaking story (and potentially trade of the year): Elon’s $1.2T SpaceX + xAI merger. Then we unpack why Jess thinks Jeff Bezos should sell The Washington Post, why media has to own the audience, and how “vibe buys,” cult capitalism, and winner-take-all narratives are still the real moats shaping where money flows. The Dead Internet Theory starts feeling uncomfortably real and we touch on why the future swings back to IRL and community-driven experiences. Plus: the Super Bowl in NorCal, Brit’s Grammys rundown, and a cameo teaser.Chapters:00:53 – Dave and MSG’s ClawCon04:05 – Super Bowl Week in NorCal04:31 – Today’s Agenda: SpaceX + xAI, WaPo Layoffs, AI Fatigue, Super Bowl Week in NorCal05:33 – SpaceX + xAI Merger: Elon’s Narrative Assets and the Deal’s Winners & Losers17:27 – Washington Post Layoffs and Why Bezos Should Sell21:19 – Google Cloud Crushes Earnings22:22 – B2B vs. B2C: Is OpenAI Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall?29:44 – Claude’s “No Ads” Jab at OpenAI32:12 – The Squad’s OpenClaw Experiments41:39 – Dead Internet Theory45:55 – Super Bowl Logistics47:26 – Pop Culture Corner: Grammys Recap49:08 – Disney Names Parks Leader as CEOWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/sbhGfYsFUlsConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryAgentic AI Will Break the Internet (ClawdBot, OpenAI & the AI Demand Delusion)
Jan 3000:56:58Summary readyJessica is back from Davos and is recapping her highlights on the pod this week. If you’re a loyal podcast ‘viewer’, you’re in luck because Jess also brought photos from a recent Grace Cathedral sound bath visit before she dives deep into the Clawdbot/Moltbot/agentic moment. Dave is all in on what’s to come in this new age of agentic computers, and in true Sam fashion, he is less impressed by the technology and suggests that if the trend continues, it’s going to be bye bye internet. In the land of the other ‘mature’ AI companies, Jess recaps her Davos AI infra panel’s red-pill take on AI with the killer quote of the week: “the appetite for intelligence is limitless.” But how true is all this demand and how much of it is really narrative? Could the rise in gold and silver prices really be a sign of technology shorting? The crew also reacts to the Minneapolis situation, debating whether it’s a scaling issue at ICE or a political move. Chapters:00:30 — Jess Returns From Davos: No Snow, All SXSW Energy 03:40 — Grace Cathedral Sound Baths06:25 — Moltbot Heat Spike: Are AI Agents Ending the Internet? 17:29 — Moltbot Has no Moat; Founders Should Be Memorable Instead21:26 — Inside the Davos AI Panel: CoreWeave, G42, OpenAI & BlackRock’s Red Pill 29:47 — Minneapolis, ICE, and How the Valley Is Reacting 51:03 — The AI Chatbot Trap for Retail (And Why Everyone Will Fall for It) We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OZDFAvRq7GcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryFrom ClawdBots to Sauna Bros: Silicon Valley in 2026
Jan 2300:49:27Summary readyWhile Jess is off being “Davos-famous,” the squad kicks things off with the classic California vs. New York debate. From there, it’s straight into AI and VC chaos: absurd mega-seed rounds that break portfolio math, why even a great early bet like Anthropic wouldn’t return a seed fund, and a revisit of Sam’s view that there are only two ways to win right now—(1) have a real secret and stay capital-efficient, or (2) own the narrative. Dave flags a new “walkout culture” in AI, where executives jump ship the moment incentives shift. The crew then debates whether AI is actually shaping ideas or just polishing them (a fancy spellcheck?), why the question matters more than the answer, and how personal, computer-driving “Clawdbots” feel inevitable and maybe exactly where Apple should be headed, despite the security concerns. The episode rounds out with The Information's breaking news on Apple's AI pins, shrinking subscription moats and business-model shifts, plus detours into the New York Times’ sauna-bros piece, Sam’s WTF Conference protest merch, Super Bowl plans, and more.Chapters:01:00 – Hello Davos listeners!03:42 – SF vs. New York: where VC actually wins05:41 – The seed valuation "fairway" vs bloated-roads10:07 – Anthropic & OpenAI: good wins, but bad seed returns11:58 – AI founder drama: mercenary teams & narrative fundraising13:53 – Did Claude write its own constitution?15:18 – AI as spellcheck on steroids21:01 – Ralph: autonomous AI agent loop24:03 – What ClawdBot really is; symphony orchestrator26:51 – The Information breaks: Apple’s AI wearable pin; are phones getting tired?29:02 – The rise of “orchestra compute” and hacked APIs31:44 – Subscription models are at risk: Whoop, Eight Sleep, Peloton, Apple41:18 – The New York Times' feature on Sauna Bros44:53 – Sam's WTF Conference merch & Montana shooting plans46:34 – Squad's Super Bowl plansWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/AgwMFLjxQa0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
Summary