A (2:55)

So I have compiled and I'm going to compile all of my interviews and my own lectures on a website called parasymposia.com and people have been asking me for years to compile them and place them in one location so that they can actually binge watch us. So that's where I'm at Now, my research is a field that I'm creating called necronetics. It is centered around the self replication of an occult species that I believe is here. And so my hypothesis is that possession to us is pregnancy to them. That's why people confuse demons and bodies and demons and spirits. And we'll get into that. And that answers the question, how can they replicate? And so that's primarily where I'm at and that's primarily what I'm researching. And it's phenomenal to be back with you, gentlemen. Thank you for the invitation.

B (3:46)

I. I kind of want to start with something that we were talking about, about right before we started the show. And this was. We were getting onto this idea of, we say abductee or experience or testimony. And within the body of research, especially pointing towards disclosure. Abductee or experience or testimony is incredibly important because I think that it's one thing to speculate from the outside, but it's another thing entirely to have actually experienced this thing. But you brought up a very important point and you were kind of discussing this idea that an entity or this phenomenon might put you in a hypnotic state, which is often the case. Right. In, in testimony. This is something, a theme that pops up often, but then from that point would present to you either an experience or present to you a dialogue that informs you of its nature or anything like that, which is incredibly lofty and hard to trust. It's a bit of information that is important, but it's important to also highlight that in its nature, being in this hypnotic state, you're open, you're susceptible to believing any number of things, suggestibility, including a deception, if that's what's levied against you. Can you talk a little bit about that?

A (4:56)

Absolutely. That is the pathology of the phenomenon. I'm reminded of a case study that Dr. Kohler Turner had where an individual was having a cookout at her home. Her neighbors are over, they're cooking burgers, they got the swimming pool out a phenomenal time across the street above, one of the homes manifested a UAP, a UFO. And her testimony to Dr. Turner was for 45 minutes, I and my friends and neighbors are passing around the binoculars and staring at this object above the home. And she's like, for 45 minutes we're observing this object. She goes, I remember that I even got my telescope out and now we're looking through my telescope at this object. And we could not believe our eyes. And it was as real as real could possibly be. And Dr. Turner was confounded then what's the issue. She said, I do not own binoculars.

C (5:59)

Wait, what?

A (6:00)

Yes, she said, I woke up the next day and I realized I don't even own binoculars. Number one. And number two, the telescope that we have been using to look at this object was still in the box. It was shipped in a month ago. So you combine, you compile that, you combine that with Dr. Barry Fitzgerald and Steve Mara's research regarding the CE5 experience. We have a significant issue with the way we perceive the phenomenon. So getting back to their research, they were looking at various case studies where this intelligence has the ability to manipulate our perception of it. So they had this individual say, okay, she was a practitioner of the CE5 protocols. They had placed a. It's called a headset. It's a headset that monitors her brain brain wave activity. They took her out there in the middle of this field and they said, okay, go through your protocols. We want you to make a connection of consciousness with this intelligence. And sure enough, she successfully conjures the phenomenon. Or dare I say, because this is my theory, the phenomenon successfully conjures her, and out of nowhere, she's seeing this light manifestations above her head. Oh, my goodness. That's the best thing I've ever seen. As she's focusing her attention on the light phenomena, they're focusing their attention on her brainwave activity. And within a period of 20 seconds, the phenomenon had induced her into theta brainwash brainwave activity. That's, that's your trance level, that's your dream state. And what we're realizing is that by that time, a lot of our perception of this intelligence is being manipulated to where the phenomenon is not just manifesting to us, it's manifesting through us. And we have the ability on or disability, I guess we simply do not understand what's going on. And so that is pathology most often witnessed in demonology. To where people. Again, I've had cases like that for less decade now where people are induced to do a dreamlike state. I thought it was my husband until I realized after the event, my husband's been next to me the entire time in bed asleep. How it's commandeering our consciousness. And not just that, but there is an aspect of this intelligence that is seeking to be seen. This is some very, very dark stuff here because it's like heavy intellectually. It's like, oh my God, what do I do with this? But Dr. Gary Nolan's researcher, lately he's had a case study in France where a young boy is in the back seat of his Car. He's looking up at the sky through a sunroof. He sees a massive, constructed craft. His mother decides to photograph it. She photographs a small craft she captured on camera was completely antithetical to what her son described as witnessing. So not only is the phenomenon hijacking our perception of it, but it's possible. I'm going to say this and hope. Hope everybody understands what I'm saying. It's possible that we have mythologized the wrong image to where, if the sun is witnessing something in what he's witnessing is not really there. It's actually a construct of the phenomenon. Then we have to go back and say, what do we truly know in terms of perception? Is there a better way to understand what we're experiencing? Because where I'm at now is the phenomenon has the ability to diversify itself. So.

C (9:50)

Okay, well, one question. How old was the son?

A (9:55)

I think he's about 8 years old.

C (9:57)

So, you know, I guess by that age, as my kids are familiar with the concept of UFOs, I just wonder if it's the chicken or the egg in this case. Is the kid mythologizing this, or is our technology deceiving us? Like, you know that we have a famously interesting feud with a podcast called Blurry Creatures. But there's something true about that. Whenever you capture some paranormal phenomenon on a camera, you know, looking at four of them right here, it comes out not quite the way you'd want to, or there is some interference because it's like, you know, these are the entities that gave us the technology, so there's a form of manipulation where they can't be captured on it.

A (10:37)

Now, if this kid might already have manipulation, complete manipulation. I mean, here's the problem we're having with this intelligence. It has the ability to diversify itself. Now, we first caught that behavioral pattern in parapsychology. One of the parapsychologists that came forward with that data was Lloyd Orbach. And he said, we have a problem. He said, why? What's going on? He's like, because we're investigating on the level of haunting we keep witnessing. We keep seeing a. An apparition of a white lady. And he's like, we. We just see it all the time. And we thought to ourselves, why don't we set up a camera right to where we could hopefully capture this entity on. On film? And what happened was, like, right next to each other. They are actively seeing an apparition with their eyes, but they're only capturing an orb on camera. And wherever that apparition went, the orb was present. And so the, the theory now is that this intelligence has the ability to project physiological constructs into our mind and into reality. Not just one, both. And we're trying to understand if that's an egregore, a topa, or are we co creating. And I can get into the observer effect as well. But the issue, and this is what I mean when I say that it's possible we're mythologizing this thing or mythologizing the mask is because for about 30 to 50 years we had ghost hunters writing ghost stories about the lady and White, not realizing that soon we're going to have the technology that's actually going to sniff out that behavioral pattern to where that's not an apparition. Right. It's actually an orb. And so then we get into orb or ology. And I hate all these ologies, by the way, but orb theory, and that's some of the, the latest research my colleague Steve and I have been doing is understanding their capabilities because we're witnessing that particular manifestation all throughout the field.

C (12:43)

All throughout the field.

B (12:45)

I want to go back to something you mentioned a moment ago at the top of the show. We're talking about, you know, these orbs and groups of people witnessing them day or night.

D (12:56)

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B (13:54)

It reminds me a great deal of Steven Greer's you know, CE5 app. Now, now, the CE5 app is fascinating because it utilizes what is effectively binaural beats. And these are beats that, you know, some way or another, sync the hemispheres of the brain and allow the mind to, I guess the way that I've come to understand it, adhere to. It's almost like the brain is an antenna and it is Tuning to a different frequency. And through this process, it allows the brain to tune into a specific frequency that these entities can utilize to present themselves. Why? I just want to say before we go any further, that this frequency manipulation is seen. And this is something, Nathaniel, that I think is actually a much larger part of this phenomenon than people are giving credit to. You see the utilization of this, you know, method in the MK Ultra programs. You see it in the Monroe Institute and in the Gates programs. And these are all sort of cousin programs that have to do with different states that the human mind can be put into. And of course the MK Ultra program is famously doing this by way of trauma or drug induced states, etc. But we have an individual who's listened to this show who told us once upon a time that they were messing around with beats and frequencies and hertz, and realized that if they tuned their beats or whatever it was to a specific frequency, that it would result in sleep paralysis, alien abduction phenomenon, the presence of orbs, and even ultimately poltergeist activity in their home. So it's not lost on us at all. That frequency seems to be, at least in the technological aspect, a huge component to this phenomenon. What I find interesting though is people have to engage with this if they do it on their own accord through drug usage, altered states, meditation, which is, I think, a way to tune the, the, the antenna of the brain to a different frequency. Binaural beats is a great way to do it, technologically speaking. But what I'm saying is there's a number of modes that they have to try to use to achieve communication with these things. But then on the other hand, these people at a barbecue are not in an altered state. They're not utilizing frequency based technology.

A (16:17)

They're not.

B (16:18)

So is this just a matter in your research of if we hope to communicate, we have to do X, Y and Z. If they hope to communicate, they could do whatever the hell they want.

C (16:29)

David, just to clarify, the binaural beat thing are two beats that are similar, but the third that is created is created in your mind because of how you're perceiving both of these beats. So it does go to what you're talking about with this, this phenomenon where it's like how much of this are we responsible for contributing to create? Right there's that, that middle ground of imagination to co create.

A (16:52)

Now we're getting into the observer effect where the phenomenon will seek to be seen. And then once you observe it for a certain amount of time, you make that conscious connection. And what is Actually there. Right. Has constructed another object, another entity is what I'm basically describing here. And we as experiencers again co creating that will go around mythologizing the mask and not the actual intelligence, projecting it. Does that make sense? Yeah. So we have, we have ghost hunt hunters, I mean ghost hunting or Bibles if you will. Not really, but just textbooks and conferences. And the real issue is, well, okay, maybe that's not really a ghost at all. That's a physiological construct created by this intelligence. If that's the case, we've mythologized the wrong thing in the true aspect or the true word. Manifestation. What Steve Mayor and I call the pre archetype is actually a lot of times these orbs. Now the question is, what can these orbs do? What can they not do? Years ago, I, I, we'd still be friends, but he passed away years ago. His name was Dr. Michael lynch and he was a parapsychologist. And he was discussing just his orb encounters with me. And this gets into a pair of physicality model. Are they physical, are they not? Right. And there's like two camps in the field. Well, this is really interesting. He's like, you know, Nathaniel, he goes, I got bored one night. And he's like, on my day off, he goes, I was just scrolling through ebay and I discovered a, a laser thermometer. And he's like, I knew I wanted to use that in my field work. He's like, but I just, I didn't know when or how. He's like, but I bought it anyway. And he's like, it finally came in. I was pretty excited. He goes, one night he goes, I'm an investigation. He goes, we were in the home for 20 minutes before all of these orbs manifested. And he's like, we captured a lot of data. It was really wild stuff. At the end of the night, I'm putting all of my, my equipment back into my car and out of nowhere one of those orbs flies out of the house into an alley across the street. And he's like, that's when I'm looking down at my equipment. I realize that in my trunk staring right at me is my laser thermometer. He said, so I'm starting to use that, trying to hit it with the laser. He said, to my utter astonishment, the light hit it and it refracted off of the orb. He said that immediately after that, the orb went right through a wall. So he's had, he's had all, he's had some really wild cases, but he had One case where there was a man and they were, I think they were doing some investigation. He's kind of a tough guy. He was former special Forces and real tough individual. But he was picked up off of his feet and it was hanging out against the wall. And he said, something is choking me. Something is choking me. Well, they didn't see anything choking them until they saw a ball of light go into his body cavity up throughout his, his body up to his neck. And then they saw a handprint manifest over his neck. You know, Steve Maris had case studies where they've had what's called EVPs, manifest electronic voice phenomena. Well, they have their voice recorders out and they'll go back and they didn't see anything with the naked eye, right? But they'll go back and they'll hear voices that are transplaced onto their equipment. And then they will, they will look at that and they will compare and contrast that with their video footage. So they didn't see anything with their naked eye. But at the moment the transplacement of audio occurred, one of those orbs was hovering directly over the equipment. So whatever we're dealing with is not just in hauntology, it's not just in parapsychology. We're also seeing that and morphology as well. Before Chris Bledsoe encountered the White lady, there's the apparition. He was, he was absorbed by a ball of light hovering directly over him. So whatever these pre archetypes, pre manifestations are, we're seeing them everywhere in the field and they have the ability to become anthropomorphic. What do I mean by that? I mean that they can literally sound and look human, you know, Dr. Barry Taft had a case study on the San Pedro haunting in California. Jackie Hernandez, where they're following these basketball volleyball sized orbs. They have them on film. It's absolutely incredible research, but they, they're finally cornering one of these objects, right? One of these UAPs, if you will, right in, in a room and out of nowhere it started to fire off these electronic signatures. And out of nowhere, all of a sudden it goes, collapses itself into an apparition of a man that was moving. And when it did, it looked right at Dr. Taff and all of his assistants there hit the floor. They all fainted. Oh. And so what we're looking at again is, and I'm going to, I'm working on a theory now of what I do believe we're dealing with in some of these cases. But whatever they are, we're seeing them even before UAPs manifest. And I. I've had. I had. I've had about maybe five or six different photographs of that taking place. Where I have one minister, him and his wife were taking a vacation in Tennessee. They. They see this secluded lake and it was breathtaking. They had to go out, take a picture of it. They take a photograph of with their phone and they see the structured craft and it's a metallic object. Okay. What they saw. This is getting really weird. What they saw with their eyes were orbs. What they captured on with the camera was a craft. So we're seeing it just. It's how fluid it is. It's really freaky stuff. My point though is whatever these objects are, they're. They're just being discovered everywhere in the field. And that I don't think that's an accident.

B (23:12)

So it seems to me then what's more important than the form that a thing takes is its nature. Function. It's function. Yeah. You know that I'm gonna go ahead and reveal to the audience that I've been using that, that phrase a lot. The function of a thing is more important than the form that actually comes from God of war. And I'm gonna go ahead and reveal that right now. And I'm very sorry to the audience who's gonna make fun of me for that, but. So two things about that. We're doing ourselves a disservice in my estimation by having these talking heads come out every so many years and rebrand a thing. It's no longer a ufo, it's a uap. It's no longer a alien. It's a nhi. A non human intelligence or a. A non human biologics, or you name it, it does.

D (24:04)

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A (24:31)

Jack Harndale was helping his daughter Emily lift an awkward dresser up a staircase when he slipped and fell backwards. A week later, Emily asked him how he was doing. I'm good.

C (24:41)

Truth was, he wasn't good.

A (24:43)

Jack needed help.

C (24:45)

Then the darndest thing happened. Emily called Pacific Source.

A (24:49)

My health plan. Jack learned that Pacific Source provides members with support beyond healthcare. In Jack's case, we Got him in

B (24:56)

touch with the local food bank.

A (24:57)

You guys do that? Yes, we do, Jack.

B (25:00)

Pacific Source Health plan In my estimation, zero for understanding of things nature. And all it does is muddy the waters a bit further. So within that spirit of understanding a thing's nature, maybe we can talk about some of the elements. And I don't want to bury the lead because, you know, I think that the, the true nature of a thing is maybe the most important aspect of this conversation. I'd like to start off with finding out if you agree with something and that something is. Do you think that there is any aspect of these entities or this phenomenon that seems to feed off of energetic exchanges? So, so within conspiracy, we call it loosh. And within sort of this. If you want to shift the conversation to a more biblical, demonic, you know, worldview, then you might say that they, they seem to benefit from our exertion of. Of sort of sadness. Low vibe, you might call it. Low vibrational anger, you can call it worship.

C (26:07)

Like where we're, where we're putting our attention.

B (26:09)

Yeah, yeah. Fear. Fear is another good one. Fear. Like these things, if they seem to feed off them. Is there anything in your research that gives that legs?

A (26:17)

Absolutely. It's everywhere. And that's everywhere. Really. So let me break that down. The research that Steve Mayor and I have been doing lately kind of approaches the phenomenon almost like a program that operates within our environment, and we're just now starting to understand it. So he's had cases where this intelligence would knock an object off of a wall and you would actually feel the home shake. Oh my God, what was that? And then your adrenaline shoots up there on the back of your neck, stands up and you're freaking out. They're wonder, wondering, my God, we have an earthquake. Will they go and find the object that was. That fell off the wall? And they actually run an experiment and it would barely make a noise when they did it. What's it doing? Even within Dr. Barry Taft's case, with. In the San Pedro haunting, it was almost like they thought that the real victim of this intelligence was Jackie Hernandez. So they realized that this thing was. Was traveling, traversing across the street into other homes. So, and I'll take it a step further where the program, it's almost like it induces us to a dreamlike state. But we have the ability now to see into the seams of the dream enough to. To flush out a pathology. So let me give you a case study from my dear friend, Paul St. Clair. He's the probably in my mind the leading cryptozoologist in the world. He's got a channel called Truth Proof. But anyways, he has an area next to him where he lives in England called Benton. And they have all kinds of. Of wolf man cases and manifestations there. They had one case in that environment, it's fascinating, in that area where three boys are running near a set of train tracks. And they're running and they see this bipedal creature emerge from the woods. And immediately when they lay eyes on him, they're petrified, they're terrified. And so they start running. Of course, who wouldn't? They're running and they're running. They're out of breath. Well, one of them happens to trip and fall and. And finally to his exalt, his utter astonishment, here comes that entity. And now it's towering directly over him like he's about to wet himself. Oh my God, he's about to kill me. And he gets all the way up to the child's face and disappears. We have cases, same area of the, of the world where you have a bipedal creature that's barely moving its legs, but it's keeping up with the car that's driving 60 miles an hour.

C (29:00)

Yep, many cases.

A (29:02)

Why? Because that's the seam in the dream. It's a glitch in the matrix. What are we looking at? Is this intelligent, has this. This desire to. Where it will co. Create an experience with you, terrify you, take the energy from you, and then go use that towards its real victim. And so what we in the field, we never really considered, especially in parapsychology, was is it possible that we're looking at the wrong victimology? Some people are not really victims of it. It's like a program where it's like, okay, I'll feed off of you and that you'll be a victim to an extent, but I'm going to use all of that energy to perform a ritual or to sigilize or to really manifest in a family's house. So there is this programmed mechanism within the phenomenon. I know. Steve told me many cases where originally parapsychology, poltergeist activity was deemed to be a mindless, unguided process. Well, the phenomenon just does whatever, right? And that's not true. We had one, he had one case where there was a. I think it was a Coke can or something on a kitchen table and it only moved at 11 or so inches. And then the next day it's still there. Right. The phenomenon is that then it moves something else and they go and look at that amount. It was the same amount of inches. So it had limitations. And so what we're looking at now is this does seem to be some kind of program when it wants to be. And then outside of that, we're still looking at what it's doing. But that. That is essentially what it does. It will induce you into a fear like state, steal all that energy, and then go change it and actually use it to. To. To do something else

B (30:55)

within the confines of a program and its limits. Where in your research does the idea of consent come up on this show? The more we look at this, the more we find that there is a set of permissions that are given at any moment, whether it be by way of interacting with this phenomenon or. I think a great example is how the Bible puts generational iniquity for my own experiences. I. I find that my. My grandmother dabbled in some things that, you know, maybe she shouldn't have been dabbling in. And what that did was it seemed to have given this phenomenon a set of accesses to, you know, my. My entire family. But I'm looking at this, you know, not strictly, but predominantly through this Christian world lens. I wonder, through this more analytical lens, are you finding that. That. That consent or that that set of permissions is consistent across your research?

C (31:55)

Just to make this question a little lighter, this is something like, this is obviously, this is a conspiracy show where we do a lot of fact finding, but we also do comedy. And you often find a lot of truth in that. But this is one of the designs that I made for a T shirt, and it's called Top Lops's Dogman, and it says the dog man exists in a quantum super state, both disemboweling you and not existing, depending on whether or not you look at it.

B (32:22)

That's actually a super joke, but it's very insightful given the context of this conversation.

A (32:26)

Right.

C (32:26)

I got this from putting away my chickens. I have like a couple of acres, and I would put them away. And then I turn around and there'd be this back gated area and very wild, like into a lake. And I turn around and you can feel this on your neck.

A (32:39)

Yeah.

C (32:39)

And I go, not gonna turn around. Because if you do, then you invite this invitation, like, or no, it's. You're giving whatever this thing is power, but this does not exist if I don't turn around and if I definitely. If I don't run. So I walk and all my guts are still inside me.

B (32:55)

I find that when you run, the the fear becomes exponentially worse.

C (32:59)

Yeah, well, you're feeling it, right?

A (33:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Yes. So what we're looking at here is a unique insight into way this. This phenomenon works. So let me say this. So if you watch the Mothman prophecies, there's a unique conversation between John Klein and Indrid Cold. And John Klein is asking anything and everything he can to this entity. You know, who are you? What are you? Where are you from? And then finally, he lands on a question Andrew Cole is willing to answer. That's what do you look like? If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Granger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-granger. Visit granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. And intercool's response was, well, it depends on who's looking. Oh, this is back to the observer effect. This is why the phenomenon seeks to be seen. Now let's get back to consent. Consent is belief. And 90 of the time, it's belief in the image. That's what we're told. Don't believe in the image. That's why we were. That's why the phenomenon projects form, deceives us with the form. Then in the sting of the tail is the actual function. And so getting back to the seeking to be seen. And what do you look like? It depends on who's looking. I. I had a case one time. It's a fascinating conversation with this individual. She was an abductee from her youth, and she said that when the phenomenon would take her, where these entities would take her, because I do believe they're entities as well, that they would manifest to her in her room as her favorite cartoon characters. Why? What do they look like? Well, it depends on who's looking at them. And so within this framework, she is realizing that, yeah, you're my. You're my favorite cartoon characters. You're my favorite comic book characters. And she's like, they took her, they monitored her, monitored her fertility, all kinds of weird stuff. But one day she's like. She just realized that they had not kidnapped her in a long time. And so two or three years go by, and now she's considerably taller, right? Much more mature. She doesn't even watch those cartoons anymore, doesn't read those comic books. And because a lot of the phenomenon is programmed right, they manifest to her in her room as those cartoons again. And it didn't make sense to me. She said, nathaniel, it never made sense to me. She goes, because I'm looking at this little creature and it's projecting into my mind. It's co creating, by the way, but let's just use that term loosely, projecting into my mind an image. And she's like, but I realize really quick, like, no, you're not who you appear to be. And she said, I stopped believing in the form it took. And that's when there was again that seem in the dream to where the entity's eyes grew. It began to stare into her eyes and they begin to move like this, back and forth. And after a while, and this is what I call the learning matrix, it was trying to improvise an image and it couldn't. And then they disappeared. So, Indra Cold, what do you look like? It depends on who's looking. This is why we have, again, at least from my perspective, the observer effect playing a role in this. I mean, Dr. Turner had tons and tons of cases in her career where people would see the same UFO in the sky, but they could not agree on what it looked like. Now, something was there. Same thing with the case study with, with Gary Nolan. Something was there, but by the time it is observed, it has collapsed itself into something else. Therefore, it's diversifying its identity in our eyes. And we have a thousand different descriptions for what may very well be a singular intelligence that we're just now starting to understand.

C (37:19)

And this is why, this is why we're running into this, this federal government aspect of framing the narrative of what this is at the very same time that disclosure, disclosure is, is eminent, so that we, we kind of like banged our heads against the wall. Like, why now? Why pick a target? Why? Well, I mean, not just to make it about us, but it happened to us. Why pick us? Why frame it in a specific way? We're using the trust of science method. And it makes me wonder what will happen when the vast majority of people not only believe in aliens or these whatever we want to call, whatever they're going to disclose and name them. What's going to happen to the power of these things to act physically here? Because I. A great example would be just whatever, we go to war with Iran. And you know, there's videos of Trump saying we never do that. And then we did it. And then his, his followers go, they go, oh yeah, he never said that.

B (38:24)

Whatever.

C (38:24)

You know, it's like, so there's a cognitive dissonance that is.

B (38:27)

It's.

C (38:27)

It's belief. They have believed the narrative and they

A (38:31)

believed that's really what it is. Man. I'll tell you what, I do not. I take very little of what's coming from the government seriously these days. Case in point, when I went and, and thought I had an idea of ufology in America, or at least globally, and I went to lecture in the UK with people that were, yeah, they were like, no, like, we know that most of your technology here, we're your allies, you know, militarily, and, yeah, we know that's a lot of your technology. Like, no way. They're like, yeah, I mean, let's, let's look at this real quick. Steve Mara, for the last, like, five years, at one point he had been lecturing and showing a video of a balloon and asking, you know, the people that were there watching, you know, is this a ua, UAP or ufo, like, okay. And then at the end of the day, it's like, no, no, this is United States technology. It's actually a balloon. And he explains the origin and all that. Well, Tom de Long and to the Stars Academy took that and went out and said, that's an actual uap. It's an actual ufo. Right. And everybody here in the States were like, well, if they said it, that's it. No, they retracted that video once they were caught out.

B (39:38)

And so, interestingly enough, Lozando did something very similar where he presented bunk images as definitive proof of UFOs. It turned out that it was actually just two images in a crop field that were adjacent to one another that looked like something in the sky casting a shadow on the ground. But this is now the authority figure that we're supposed to look to on UAP disclosure.

A (40:00)

You're exactly right. And what we're seeing right now within ufology is there is an undercurrent of occultism that's trying. That they're desperately trying to hide. I mean, their wits end to hide. And we can get into that in a second. But again, even with the changing of these, the terms. Right, okay. It's not. It's extraterrestrial. We know they're extraterrestrial, and I don't believe we know that at all. I mean, I can even go to a prophecy given to by one of the main occultists as to when and why this terminology would change. Yeah, you know what? Why are occultists knowing more about the phenomenon than we do. I'll tell you why. It's because there's a war for information and there are two warring factions within the government. Now I know researchers all across the world that they're suffering from the same demise where secretly. Right. They know for sure this has everything to do with the gold entities. But their government is saying it's extraterrestrial. Meanwhile they're building entire group think tanks and they're calling it occult science. It's from Project Stargate. As long as we could repackage it, we can get away without actually having to acknowledge the origin. And because then we have to have a head knowledge and if I don't even know how the topic is and know the subject matter, then if I just call it extraterrestrial, I'm not responsible for the intellectual conversation. All right, can I quote this?

B (41:36)

This is, this is, this is fascinating because I want to get your.

C (41:41)

One second. Nathaniel, sorry to interrupt. Can you tap your microphone? Okay, so sorry. Select your.

B (41:48)

Oh, that's what's been going on.

C (41:50)

You're talking through your laptop microphone. I'm sorry, we'll edit this part out.

B (41:54)

Oh, this little brief moment here, this,

C (41:56)

that's why when he touches the desk or something, it makes all that noise.

B (41:59)

Yeah, yes. It's not selecting your, your, your actual microphone while you do that.

C (42:05)

Sound really good though.

B (42:05)

Anyway, he did sound really good. I didn't think that there was anything wrong there. It's just that that Mike's picking up your notes. So two things. Number one, you, you use this terminology, co creating a lot, which I think is a fascinating terminology to use. We have a friend of the show, Ed Mabry, who says that human beings are co creator alongside God. So it's fascinating that it seems like something is hijacking that aspect of, of our nature. And speaking of co creating, I would say that Hollywood and the Nazi pioneered space program NASA have been co creating the mask as, as you've been putting it, that we would become accustomed with, you know, here in 2026 as we approach disclosure, whatever form that's going to take, or whatever that's going to happen, Aliens have, have been co created by those two forementioned programs. And you mentioned new age sort of occultists and thought leaders. I have two. And this can springboard us into this conversation. Ah, there's. It's still doing the damn thing. I don't know what it is. It's all right though. Maybe just, you know, we'll avoid whatever the heck that noise was. So Aleister Crowley is one of them. We had a bunch of notes on him, but I'm just going to skip ahead. That Crowley says future generations would contact these entities through technology rather than ritual. And I think that's important because we talked. I don't know if it was on the show or if it was pre show. I think it was on the show. This idea that these things were previously communicated with by way of ritual or drug use or a multitude of these. There it is. I use that word too much. A combination of these things, but ultimately leading to channeling, you know, meditative processes, drug induced meditation. And this is how you channel them. But that we would eventually do that through technology, which I would say is a frequency based technology because it seems to be where they exist. And then we have manly P hole so in the T in the Secret Teachings of All Ages, he claimed that ancient civilizations received advanced knowledge from what they interpreted. It's interesting because interpreted is maybe a really important word here as God's angels or divine teachers. And he says that post the year 2000 that these, this ancient knowledge would reemerge. And it kind of points to like a biblical as the days of Noah. You know, it's just something I tossed in there. But it would reemerge and ancient teachers or gods or angels would be accepted as cosmic intelligences. And you're right, Nathaniel. There is no shortage of new age occultist thought leaders pointing to this time as when these things were going to be introduced to us. And yet the authorities on the matter would have us believe that these things are extraterrestrial. Do you, do you believe at all that this extraterrestrial narrative, you know, space entities has any bearing in the conversation?

A (45:01)

I. If you can hear me, can you hear me? We're good?

B (45:03)

Yes.

A (45:03)

Okay. So I do think it has a bearing in the conversation because it was prophesied by a famous occultist by the name of Kenneth Grant. And I'm going to highlight this and underscore it at the very end of this because I'm going to tie it into the fact that there are practitioners among us embodied, that the phenomenon is actually seeding with technology. And so in a way, it's conjuring them. We'll get to that in a second. So I'm going to read a quote and show you what we're dealing with. Kenneth Grant, from his book Outside the Circles of Time. Some believe that the UFO phenomena are a part of the miracle. An amounting mass of evidence seems to suggest that mysterious entities have been located within the earth's ambiance for countless centuries in that more and more people are being born with the ability to see or in some way see their presence. Here we go. Prayer for deific intervention in ancient times has now become a cry from the heart to extraterrestrial or interdimensional entities, according to whether the manifestations are viewed as occurring within man's consciousness or outside. Again, are we co creating it and we're dealing with the mask or outside of himself? And it's apparently objective but often invisible entities. Now, art, this is a key pathology here. The new Isis Lodge has in its archives the sigils of some of these entities. Why would aliens have sigils? And why is he educating on this right for us? Why is he educating us on this? The sigils come from a grimoire of unknown origin, which forms a part of the Dark Kabbalah located by magicians in the tunnel of Khalifa. Oops. Yeah, why is that, why is that a problem is because we're finding sigils on experiencers in the same sigil. Sorry, is this guy too quick, buddy?

C (47:01)

No, no, this is great, but I, I just don't want to repeat information from like the last, maybe the last time you were on, we, we interviewed a guy named Citizen D. Oh, yeah,

B (47:09)

yeah, yeah, is worth repeating.

C (47:11)

And he is a dude in the UK and he said he's involved with doing crop circles. So he said about 80 to, I don't know, 80 of the crop circles that people do see are man made. And I said, well, where do you come up with the designs? Turns out they're downloads. I said, that's very interesting. I showed him some of, like, some of Solomon's sigils.

B (47:36)

Like where from the Lesser Keys of Solomon.

C (47:38)

Yeah, from the Lesser Keys of Solomon. And I, I, I didn't scroll to the top where the title was, so I just said, do you recognize any of these? And he goes, yeah, that one and that one and that one. And I put that one in a field. And I'm like, that's really interesting. And then, then he told us that he was having poltergeist phenomenon. He couldn't explain why.

B (47:55)

He also told us that after he put one of these symbols in a field, that a local coven of witches approached him and thanked him for doing it, because they had been up all night doing these prayers and seances for something like this to be shown to them. And then it happened in an adjacent field next to where they were doing this. So this is the thing that everybody hopes to separate right now, which is why when you said that, you know, I kind of. I. I was a little bit like, not maybe I appeared overwhelmed. It's a mild bit of frustration. It's not necessarily that it's heavy. I agree that it is heavy, but it's frustrating because it's, to me, glaringly obvious. And what you just highlighted is another drop in the bucket. And the bucket has a label on it that says, it's obvious, dummy. And right now, I've been showing that bucket to all kinds of people. We had it out with, with, you know, Timothy Albarino and all these other characters who. There's an interesting phenomenon that's taking place. You want to talk about a phenomenon, a narrative. And that's what it is. It's controlling a narrative. And it's happening right now. And I think it's crunch time because I think that disclosure will be happening maybe more soon than we previously thought. We've always kind of thought it was going to happen. I think we might actually be there and they're trying to do this damage control and this narrative control. And I'm trying to say the overlap, and maybe it's not even overlap, it might be one to one between what people identify as demonic encounters and what people identify as alien encounters are. They're virtually the same thing. And instead this. This narrative in opposition is, you know, risen up to counter this. And it says, if you think aliens are demons, you're an idiot. Albeit it's reductive. Albeit we are stupid and we are stupid, and it's. It's not quite that clean cut, right. To say that aliens are demons, you would say, well, what do you mean by that? And that's a fair question. But to label people who have noticed the overwhelming amount of patterns that overlap with one another between demonic encounters and alien encounters, to label those people as idiots is, I think, frustrating.

A (50:01)

It's very frustrating.

B (50:02)

Just frustrating. It is. It's malicious. And I think that it is more so the result of not a genuine opinion, but a narrative that hopes to control the public's opinion as we go forward. And that, to me is. Is. Is unforgivable. And so just listening to you, you know, lay some of these things out. Yeah, man, it's. It's frustrating. It's frustrating to hear this because it seems very obvious.

A (50:25)

Well, again, you. I'll tell you what's frustrating for me is knowing that there are good people that feel like that or, or believe that. That, you know, not the radio or anything, but that. And I had conversations with them afterwards. It was like, what's going on? Like, I don't know, you know, I don't, like, I don't know any of these guys, really. I don't, man. And I. But it frustrates me when I talk to pastors and I'm like, what do you mean? Am I an idiot, Nathaniel? I'm like, no. You know, but let's get back to this because I think we're going to really pile on some evidence here that is germane to the conversation, you know, when we're getting back to civilization in its activity with alien entities. Dr. Carla Turner had a case study where this took place. Where. And I, I was in common contact with the. The son of the experiencer. But the mother is a contactee and she's working with Dr. Turner. And, you know, and one night she goes to sleep on her couch and the son and the husband are watching a movie or something, and out of the corner of their eye, they see what's called a biofield, a translucent cloud of balls of light and their moo. It's moving silently into the living room. And it descends slowly down upon the sleeping mother. Now, here's where we get into form versus function. Thirty or 40 minutes later, she wakes up and she says, I saw a form. I saw an alien. But her body had sigils from head to toe. Let me take it a step further. Okay? So the Collins elite, which, by the way, were not simpletons and they weren't just fundamentalists, they were physicists. Okay. Chuck Missler was rumored to be one of them, if not a consultant of them. Right. So there's a hierarchy here of research and researchers in that field. And the Collins elite had realized that there was actually Richard Gottlieb, I believe it was, had a. A program called Project Often. And his job was he was going around and he was actually investigating crop circles in England. And what they had discovered, according to final events, okay, according to their research, was that there was an energy signature and a molecular anomaly in some of these crop circles. And that after performing, again, performing successful rituals in those areas, two separate areas that they had, they had determined that the same electronic signature and energy signature was discovered after the performance of a successful ritual that they discovered in. In the real crop circles. Take that data set aside. I personally know people who have investigated, created fabricated crop circles. Circles in England. And they've had the same energy signatures, guys. They had the same anomalies. We're talking about batteries dying, right? We're talking about where the clusters within the. The soil are stuck together. So what we're looking at seems to be a relationship of civilization. Why is it acting like that? Because you're changing the molecular. Molecular structure by virtue of ritual. So my, my point here, though, is that there is some kind of civilization occurring on experiencers. Now I had a remote viewer that I had worked with who was going in and out of his body. He believed he was meeting his guides. And again, that's just another archetype. That's a form.

B (54:15)

Yeah.

A (54:16)

Here comes the function. And after one session of, of, of whatever he was doing. Remote view, I could think it was. That's what he said. But he goes back into his body and he, he's sees that like he's, he's having a massive heart attack. And his son told me, and no uncertain terms, it's incredible case, he said as they're working on my father to save his life. From underneath the surface of his skin were sigils. I have photographic evidence of this. They were subdermal scarifications that were sigils from underneath the skin. So what we've got to do, and I'm not just saying you and I, and I'm not just, you know, whatever, but in general, we've got to get rid of form and start looking at function. Because we should not have alien sigilizing experiencers, just like we should not have Marjorie. Marjorie Cameron. Right? The contemporary and basically the, the female com companion to Crowley and Parsons. We should not have her performing a ritual and seeing a UFO. We should not have an alien entity, Mr. Blue, manifesting at the successful result of a seance in the school experiment. But we are. Why is that? And so that's the kind of research I and my colleagues.

B (55:37)

What was the name of that experiment called?

A (55:38)

It's called the Skull Experiment. It was in Skoal, England. But what we're looking at here, guys, is there, there does seem to be a hierarchy. And whatever they're doing is they're manipulating form so that they can. They can give us the function.

B (55:56)

I, I wonder what you'd make of. So are you familiar with Rudolph Steiner? So that, that idea. And I've, I've, I've brought this up on recent episodes and I prefaced it with, like, you know, Steiner has some fascinating ideas. He thinks that the Archangel Michael won a great battle in the heavens and casted down, you know, the, the, the losing spiritual demonic entities in like 1870. So, you know, I, I have difficulty placing that. But still, he claims that this was the case and that these entities were cast down to the human realm, and they would later be redefined as enlightening, progressive, and scientific rather than demons. And that mankind would eventually be entirely deceived by these entities. And he looked to our current era as the era in which the deception would be fully accepted. So that kind of insinuates that there would be. It would be an elongated process. And I've been speculating that that process might include what we talked about earlier as far as, like, the propaganda machine in Hollywood and, and, you know, the, the space program, etc, being part of this, this great big deception. What do you, what do you make of that? Because I, I have trouble, like I said, placing it just because it's, it's such a strange claim. 1870. The year 1870. And. But I mean, it seems to be on par with what we're experiencing right now.

A (57:29)

Well, I think that we're being propagandized not just by Hollywood, but by the federal government, because I know this for a fact. They're performing rituals in the darkness in order to conjure these entities so that you could get technology. And I mean, even. Okay, let me pack this in and just really hopefully solidify this theory. But years and years ago, I think it's about 40 years ago. Well, who now is an aerospace CEO? Richard Banderick said he was contracted out by the federal government. He's a whistleblower now, but he said, and we were going to gifting fields. And he said somehow the government knew where the phenomenon was, was gifting us nanotechnology or metamaterials. And he said, so here I am out there in this field with a handful of other people, and we go right to the very location we were sent to. Like, here are the coordinates. There we are. He's like, in the. The meta materials we were collecting always blended in with its environment. That's form. Here comes the function. He's like, but whenever we would actually get it in our hands, if that meta material was not designed for us, this blew my mind. Gentlemen. Oh, my God. He goes. And he goes, I'm holding it in my hand, and within 10 seconds it devolves into a dust and falls out of my hand. When Ryan Bledsoe says that Tim Taylor asked his father, are you Merlin? He's not said again, we're being told one thing, but we're not capturing the implication. He's not saying, are you that same wizard? No, Merlin is a quantifier. Merlin was a title. It's a descriptor. Are you a practitioner? Because here's the metamaterial. And why you, why you let me break this down and go back to biblical antiquity. In the eyes of a dying father, there the dying fire. In the eyes of a dying fire, there was a man who was stoking and he gets a download into his mind and he says, okay, I am being told to go out there into the darkness because there's meta material out there. There's some kind of metal I've been given, and I am being told to carve the name of an unclean spirit into that metal. And then I'm going to implant that. I thought that was ufo. No, it's not. I'm going to implant that object into a corpse underneath its tongue. And now the phenomenon will hijack commandeer that cadaver. And I'm interfacing with it. Now, is that necromancy or is that technology? It's both. But it's technology tailored and designed for occultists, for practitioners. Now, now we got to deal with this idea of, okay, are they actually, again, I'm not applying these performing rituals out there. I'm suggesting our federal government is looking for a practitioner that will, that the phenomenon wants to work with this technology. And so I believe they 100 with the Chris blood, someone said, okay, is it you they're looking for? We know they're looking for somebody, right? Because again, you have the technology and you have the conjurer. You have to have them both for this to work. And so what they realize is we have the technology, but we cannot work it. So we've got to go find the contrary. It's meant to be with. This is why. This is why they're sigilizing rockets when they send them out into space. Why who's sigilizing them? Nakultas. And so this is all tied, intertwined together. And it leads me to believe that this is again, in necronetics, that what we're dealing with on this planet is an embodied species of occultists. And this is why in Psalms David said that those who worship them will become like them. You actually take on the characteristics of the phenomenon you're conjuring. This gets. I don't know, I'm rambling here, but I'm just riffing off of necronetics. But I think that this is a lot deeper and a lot darker. I, I know a person who was a secularist, got into Ufology because they wanted to, you know, encounter entities and research the extraterrestrial. They latched at a conference, okay, with big name researchers. And then after the conference Went to one of their homes, and the first thing that they were. They witnessed was an altar they had built to these entities in their closets. Shattered their worldview because we're being fed a narrative of extraterrestrial presence, but it also wants to be worshiped once altar is built in its name and is operating within occult science.

C (62:45)

Nathaniel, what. What do you make of this search for the Merlin, for the. This person that's embodying a certain something? What happens when that.

B (62:56)

Is it a genetic thing or is it a. Yeah, for sure.

A (63:00)

Let's go there. Let's go there, guys.

C (63:02)

We just had Heidi Love on, and we're talking about, you know, the Mormon mountain of. Of DNA and that rabbit hole. But it for sure is.

B (63:10)

What.

C (63:11)

What do you think happens, though?

A (63:14)

There's two things going on here. So again, I've had to kind of deconstruct everything I thought I knew about this stuff, you know. So with Gary Nolan's research, what we realized was that just because the experience is tailored for you or to you doesn't mean it's tailored for you. So, you know, like, originally, it's like, okay, I experienced the paranormal. Oh, my God, I'm being haunted. Okay. What Gary Nolan did is sat down with experiencers and said, okay, you're. You're. You're first generation, right? Like, okay, yeah. All right. So you ever experienced the paranormal? Sure. So they did brain scans on the first experiencer, and he had a brain anomaly on. It's incredible. Okay, he had an anomaly on his brain scan. Okay. It's. It's on the kudat punam area of the brain. And so then the second generation comes along, and I'm. Again, we're dealing with various. Various generations of experiencers. The second generation goes, yeah, I, I matter of fact, it's weird you mentioned that. I experience the same thing, you know, and it follows me everywhere. So they do another brain scan on number two. It's on Junior, right? Same brain scan anomaly. What's going on? Same part of the brain. What is going on here? The third generation comes over, they do a brain scan on him. But in the interview, they say, have you ever experienced the phenomenon? Absolutely not. I don't know what you're even talking about. I don't believe in it. Never experienced anything like that. But they had the same brain scan anomaly. So just because what we're literally looking at is that a phenomenon will hijack the bloodline by virtue of manifestation. So it's tailored to us, but it could actually be bioengineering and hijacking the bloodline to where further down in another generation, it'll show up to the actual person it's waiting for. I've had cases like that is making sense.

B (65:10)

Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, what's fascinating about that is they. They say that schizophrenia, which now I. I understand is a totally different phenomenon than what the medical industry calls it, but it has this ability to. You know, they used to think that it skipped a generation, and now they're not too sure. That was the science, the cutting edge science in, like, the early 2000s was that schizophrenia has this tendency to skip a generation. Now they're saying that's not the case. It only goes through some process that makes it appear to skip a generation. But, you know, they're. They're. They identified what I think is a spiritual disposition as a medical one that is hereditary in nature, that has some aspect that makes it look like it skips a generation, when that's not truly what's happening. It's a latency thing. It is like something waiting and. And, you know, looking for the right, you know, I suppose, person in the lineage to interact with.

A (66:04)

Absolutely right. Tailored to us, but not really for us. And so then when I learned that, it kind of concerned me because I'm

B (66:10)

like, oh, my God.

A (66:10)

I had to throw all kinds of theories out of the 1. Get out of here. Let's look at the data here. But I mean, I've had cases where that something like that occurred where, you know, I had one instance where a husband gets to me and he's like, you know, Nathaniel, he's wigging out. He's really losing. He's like, oh, my God. I know what to do. I'm like, why? It's like there's something haunting my wife. I mean, it's really after my wife, Nathaniel. He's like, I came home from work one day, and my wife is paralyzed in bed. And she says, I don't understand what it is, but it's hovering directly over me right now, just eye to eye. And I said, well, do you have someone in the occult in your bloodline? Why? That's where the phenomenon begin. Yeah, it's searching for the other one down the bloodline. And he's like, well, I'm gonna talk to my wife about it. So about a month later, he's like, I don't think we. We have anything like that going on. I said, well, check again and get back to me. They went through the bloodline and absolutely. They had a practitioner vehicle and what it is, again, is the phenomenon will claim the bloodline itself and then traverse through it. And that's one thing it replicates as and through. Okay, so I'm going to go through some of the pillars of necronetics. So this intelligence replicates by implantation and impregnation. Implantation and impregnation. So a lot of people within demonology, they. They don't understand that this is both spiritual and physical. So you mean that there's pregnancy and possession in the same cases? Absolutely. Matter of fact, if you look back through what's called the debut phenomenon, the 16th century, you had people, women, who are being possessed by entities that had accosted them in their dreams. They'd wake up the next day, they would have a different language preference. They would have different experiences bouncing around in their minds. And I remember when I was doing this 100 years ago, really, really freaky stuff. But soon after that, they started to have physical symptoms of pregnancy. And I mentioned this in times past. This is found in this book. I'm not going to make too much of a noise here. All right. Spirit possession in Judaism, cases and context from Middle Ages to present. All right. In this particular book, they talk about instances where the same women that were possessed by entities were seemingly impregnated by them as well. How does that happen? Right. Secondly, they go to the. The rabbis and their exorcist and safdie in the 16th century, and they're presenting themselves. They're like, you know, I'm having a lot of weird symptoms, and I don't understand what's going on. And so they went through what's called the Lavouche Method, which is a series of experiments and tests. They came to the startling conclusion that you're not just pregnant by the entity, but you're possessed by the entity that impregnated you. And then they thought about it and they said, well, wait a minute. It's almost not that you're pregnant by the entity that's. That's possessing you. You're. You're pregnant with it. With it. I would suggest that that is a ritual. Explain it. I'll explain it. That is another occult ritual, and that's how this phenomenon is carrying its bloodline in our species. We have cases. I mean, this is fascinating even from the Golden Bow. It's an anthropological book written by James Frazier. It's called the Red. Right. And the Red Rite is essentially what's a transfer of consciousness from one body to another. Our own government's trying to do that through Astral projecting and remote viewing. All right, Can I go a little bit deeper? Is this okay?

B (70:02)

No. Yeah. Please. It's funny. This just came up recently where somebody was talking about astral projecting and then finding that when they were going around to certain locations, they would approach government buildings and find that there were other people suddenly in this astral realm. And they seem to be, like, working, like, guarding the building and doing. Yeah, yeah. Like, hey, you can't really go back.

C (70:22)

You said it's called the D book, Rich.

B (70:26)

Yeah.

C (70:26)

So we were talking about Les Wexner, obviously, in the. Oh, yeah, in the Epstein files. And he's, you know, notorious for having a D book put on him. But. So this phenomenon is not explicit just to woman. It's not only for women. This happens to men as well, and so leads to God knows what.

A (70:43)

The species I'm looking at are specifically men. This is why in the sexual pathology within demonology was mainly women. It was incubi entities that were manifesting two women in the images of their husband and then inseminate them, impregnating them. Yeah. So the incubus is the debuk. They're one in the same. Now, let me explain this. We realize again, how did they impregnate? How did they possess. Well, now we get. Now we're getting to. To what's called the sexual pathology of the incubus. So within the incubus, you have a term that was often employed by demonologists, and that was the word larva. Larva was described as the fetus or as the biological avatar they possessed. That's what they impregnated the women with. Now we get into the incubi literature from Father Shin Astoria of Amino. We have a problem, because how can a spirit, right, an incorporeal entity, secrete substances and carve sigils onto the bodies of the victims? That seems to be an impossible embodied species of practitioner. Right. In addition to that, Sinistrari came to the conclusion that we have another problem here because the secretions are being accompanied by sigil magic. Here comes the sigils. And so we're looking at again, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw this out there. The red, right, in the golden bow was further solidified by Peter J. Carroll in his book Libra Null in the Psychonaut, okay? He had this term, okay, and it was called thanateros, thanatos, meaning death and eros, meaning sex. And what he did in the red, right, was that you create a bond with the woman. Hello, incubus. You implant a fetus in her body, there's your pregnancy, and you possess that new fetus as your biological avatar. That's your possession of pregnancy. Incubus debuke. So what this species does is it will hijack a male, a male adept. That adept will perform sigil magic on the victim, create again, impregnate, and then the entity within them will take on that child as their biological avatar. Are, I believe 100. That's how it's self replicating its own species. So is it either or? No, it's one. Can I break it down further? This is making sense.

B (73:26)

Yeah. No, yeah.

A (73:28)

Okay. This is why with the witch of vino. And this gets back to T. Wait, T. Witten Davies Research Where? Okay, so we have, essentially we have the father and the son, right? The father is the body. It creates the son in the womb, and what's in the father commandeers the body of the son, and that son carries on its legacy. Now, in T. Whit and Davies work, Professor Esther Amore's work, they have this term with the witch of Endor, with an ancient necromancy where it's called the ob O B ob and it's actually pronounced oov in Hebrew, but it's a Canaanite loneliness own word. And in Canaanite, in the Canaanite language, it meant father or revenant. So we get the word uva abba. This is wild stuff. And so in nature, necromancy, what they believed is that when you created the biological avatar of the entity that's returning, you're actually creating the entity itself. They're not either or, they're one in the same. And so what they were doing is, it's fascinating is they had this term. Ooh, they had, but they had different definitions. And so the first definition of the, the OOV was it's the biological avatar of the entity. Oh, see where we're going, the second term is that it is the entity itself that's possessing the avatar. It's making sense. The third term was that the avatar itself was a way that it would amplify the communication it had in this dimension. So what the phenomenon did, through hybridism is it took all three terms, collapsed them into one, and now we have the hybrid amongst us. It is the ended, a trinity within. And I, I, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that's Yeshua and all them, but what I am saying here is that that's what I believe they're doing through possession and pregnancy and why people like Lex Wexner. Yeah. Are saying I'm possessed by a debug. Why? Because even. Even when it's as far to say that there are times when the hair on the back of his neck stands up and he's basically being told to do something by the entity. But I think that solves the mystery of how and why the self replication. And that's my little rant on that. So I apologize for the side.

C (75:56)

No, no, that's fantastic. Owen Benjamin actually posted a video of Lex. Lex Wexner as he's being. Being deposed. I suppose he's in a courtroom setting and they ask him a question. And you can see at that very moment, it's like the hair on the back of his neck does stand up

B (76:12)

and he actually has to. It's almost his head to get it to like.

A (76:15)

Yeah.

C (76:15)

He goes. And then he answers a question. But it was an uncomfortable question. I was like, man, that was.

B (76:20)

That was a dude who had a physical tell of wanting to silence a voice in his head. That's. That's what I saw when I saw that. I want to ask you, Nathan, about. So we've talked about sort of what. What you could call the spiritual aspect of it. And obviously we've. We've dabbled around the physical aspect of the phenomenon. Interestingly enough, when it came to our recent debate, we had, you know, Timothy Alvarino said something fascinating. I actually didn't expect him to say this, but he said that the abduction phenomenon is strictly physical, which I disagree with wholeheartedly. And in fact, within the body of data that is. Is non definitive. You know, a lot of it is anecdotal. Especially when we're talking about, you know, abductee testimony. It is overwhelming that the abductees or the experiencers will say something to the effect of sometimes it's physical, sometimes it seems to take place in an astral or a spiritual realm. So I. I reject that. I don't think that there's any basis for saying that this entire, you know, the entire phenomenon is strictly physical when it comes to alien abductions. But I do want to explore the physical aspect of it. In particular, what you think about this new pantheon of entities is about the best way that I can put it. So within this pantheon, we have the tall grays, the short grays, we have the insectoids, we have Reptilians, we have the tall whites. And I think that you would even categorize the way that the woman, as the Bledsoe are describing falls into this kind of Pleiadian or tall, Nordic, descriptive. And, and even that is fascinating because we talked briefly for a moment about the Iran versus Israel situation, and it is worth noting that Chris Bledsoe's lady said that there was going to be a nuclear exchange by Iran and Israel and that it would be thwarted effectively by orbs. And I'm not saying that even that won't even come to pass. I'm just saying if you do in fact see that come to pass, don't bet your bottom dollar that you understand the nature of it as Chris Bledsoe has described it to you or the lady has described to Chris Bledsoe. But among this pantheon of entities, what do you suspect is happening here? Is this something that is once again the, the phenomenon presenting to us in whatever way we are likely going to accept at the moment, or is this something that's transcended that because it seems to have a real physicality to it in, in many circumstances? And surely I would imagine they'd hope to parade something physical out to us at some point. What would you make of that physical thing?

A (78:47)

I think we're dealing with what's called a paraphysical model that John Keel popularized in his books. So if we're dealing with the spiritual matter, it's not just the reductionist lens of saying, well, it's just something we cannot see. No, in many cases, but something we can't even touch. Even in seances. We have cases where these entities, and I happened often in England specifically, where you would have a ball of light and you would have it that's slowly constructing itself out of it, to the ability to be touched, can actually touch them. And so this gets back into some of Thomas Aquinas research where it's the subtle spiritual nature, but in terms of the taxonomy, I don't believe any of those really exist. Let me say this. When people say that we have non human biologics, I would refer to Peter Lavenda with his conversation with Michael Aquino. When Aquino told him, well, we have. We. We kind of threw that term out there because again, we on the outside at open resource research or open source research, we didn't. We don't know what that means. Right. We're thinking they actually have bodies. No, Aquino told Levenda. He goes, no, that was just a. What we mean by that is anything that returns on the craft from the local planet or from, you know, the moon, whatever, that's a non human biologic. It's not ours. It didn't come with us. It's just Something that. That accumulated on the craft when we're taking it home. So we're hearing bodies. That's not what they're meaning. Not at all. And even I know, and I know that people will question Nick Pope. Okay, that's fine. But Nick Pope. Even recently, about. Not recently, but about a year ago. Upset. Yeah, we have bodies, but they're interdimensional. They can be with us and without us. At the same time. They could be absent with all that. And what I mean by that is they could be physical until they're not. And that's what we know. Know of them to be throughout seances. And that. That's really where I'm at with it. I could tell you this, though. The term spiritual has been debated for thousands of years. God is a spirit. Does that simply mean he's just invisible to us, or is he a real physical entity that's just invisible to us? And so this gets back into some of the early philosophical arguments, but where I stand on it, I. I simply do not believe in the reductions. Reductionist lens of this just being simply invisible entities. It's not backed up by the data, and it's not backed up by what we know of the phenomenology behind this intelligence. Now to the taxonomy. I do not believe these entities actually exist. At least the grays, all of that. Okay, now the grays may actually be in the meat suit. Theory does play a role in it. But even within, for those who likely will, Zondo, even his own book, he said the government. Let's take that theory for a second, deconstruct it. Even our own federal government, when they did recover, if we take that as, you know, the grain of sauce. Okay, cool, Whatever. Even when they did uncover the bodies, they realized that these beings had smooth brains and they could have not constructed the crack they were even piloting. So then. Then we get into the idea that even the pilots were being piloted. Who's piloting the pilot? And then we fall back into the original hybridization model we all know knew to be true, which was that you have software and hardware when people say that spirits are. They are physical, because even though we can't see them, and that's the only issue, it's not true. There's something piloting the pilot. And that's just if we take lose word at heart. Now, if we don't take that into consideration and we go to Wokino's theory, then we have no bodies whatsoever, and we're being manipulated by a government that wants to cover up its own technology and would rather pass off their own stuff as extraterrestrial so as not to alarm our adversaries. But that's where I'm at with it. And when people try to define the spiritual as okay, that's simply something we can't see that doesn't follow the data at all.

B (83:03)

I'm, I'm thinking these days that in alignment with the idea that people throughout history have been inspired, you could say, by some, you know, disembodied voice or some stream of consciousness that they can tap into in order to get the information required to build something, a piece of technology or otherwise. I do think that there's some legs to the idea that mankind was commissioned in very many ways. I mean, if you look at the bell shaped craft of the Nazi regime and how it bears resemblance to a vimana of the Vedic belief system, to me it seems likely that these things are a continuation of that very same spirit. Let's say that the Nazis had, or that anybody else had to try to create these things and that they were inspired by these, you know, these entities that exist. If spiritual is, is too much for some people, then within a certain frequency actually seems to be pretty relevant to the conversation. And I said earlier that I think that the MK Ultra aspect of this actually plays a much larger role than a lot of people understand. And I think that it's still the techniques that MK Ultra would deploy against their victim, you know, meaning disassociation by trauma or by drug use or any of these things or, or a combination thereof. These are techniques that I think they learn through channeling. I think they learn from these very same entities. And so I think a lot of what people are seeing in the abduction scenario is actually a shield or a front for the very same operation. And I think it utilizes technology that is also inspired by these same entities. And I think that maybe there is room for these meat suits. You know, Karen Wilkinson has a fascinating testimony. She's one of these people who had this pregnancy confirmed by the doctors later on, has another abduction where, you know, you know, she has, I don't know if it's through regressive hypnosis or if she just has this ability to remember, you know, much of her experience, or at least what they would have her believe about her experience. And then, you know, in this experience the baby is taken, she goes back to the doctor and the doctor says this is rather miraculous because not only do you have no signs of being pregnant, you have no signs of ever having been pregnant, which Is, you know, unheard of. Later on in Karen's life, she would be introduced to what people have coined the Black Eyed children phenomenon, which is the result of this rendition of the hybridization program. But in her experience, she does recount seeing these bodies discarded, these, these small grays as, as non functioning husks that she even, she even attributes a smell to them of, of like sulfur and rotting flesh. You know, almost insinuating they don't do much to clean these things. But, you know, is that what it looks like on the surface or is this, you know, human being? We have a video that come out pretty often. I saw one on Twitter recently where they are animating this almost 3D printed meat, this chunk of meat. And through some simple, you know, electrical signals, they're sending messages to this to contract muscle and to relax muscle. And what this does is it creates a crawling effect. Now this is what they're allowing us to see, right? And you imagine that at any given time the government is well beyond the threshold of what the public is allowed to see. So maybe then they have the ability to create something that they send, you know, maybe slightly more complex electrical signal to, or frequency to, and it can carry out, you know, some, some rudimentary jobs like, you know, acting as this dummy. Go ahead.

A (86:44)

Oh yeah. So this gets back again, ties into the occult, at least from my perspective. Israel Regardi and Franz Barden both had a concept of projecting your consciousness as, as an alter ego. And a lot of this ties into orbology where you can actually, this is through rituals. You could condense your consciousness into a ball of light that will have its own electromagnetic signature. And not only that, pull out another book for everybody. Okay, gotta be very quiet because I don't want to disturb you guys.

B (87:21)

Does this phenomenon take place in the astral projection phenomenon, like when people are actually projecting?

A (87:27)

Starts out as that. Okay, demons and spirits of the land, put that up here for everybody. In this book it deals with a sorcerer that had the ability to project his consciousness into another location as an alter ego. Oh yes. To where again it will. You'll interpret another form while he's determining that form's function. Oh my God. So what that means this was later further identified and matured by Franz Barden.

B (88:00)

So he is able to determine the form, the alternate someone else is able to inhabit.

A (88:09)

Well, that's what I think is happening too. Let's take it, let's start with that foundation first and work off of that. And so what this individual was doing was projecting his consciousness into Another room, another area. But he had the ability to perceive what that alter ego was perceiving. So it's a. It's kind of splitting of two. And the problem is that when people saw the alter ego, they didn't realize it was coming from him. Right. He had. And this is, this is called Vaulting into a Form by Franz Barden. Now, what we're looking at is our government trying to weaponize that same artifact and that same mechanism. We've got Joe McMonagle. Right, Joe McMonagle. He ran an experiment, I think, with, with Luozando, where they're trying to remote view or project their consciousness into the jail cell of a terrorist. Now, again, what are we looking at? They manifested in that gel cell, but what the person perceived as their projection or alter ego was not what they really looked like.

B (89:11)

So.

A (89:12)

Right. And a lot of this begins as plasma balls or electromagnetic signals. This is why. Let me go back to this real quick, and then we'll get into the kind of hybridism aspect of it, if we can.

B (89:23)

This is the phenomenon of sort of sentient intelligent plasmoids.

A (89:29)

Absolutely, absolutely. And this is just. This is my, my theory. So people can build a stake and burn me whatever you want to. I'm. I'm cool. But even with. Okay, let's go back in the 1970s, the USSR, they were really liberal with their parapsychological research. And so what they had is they had a series of experiments dealing with astral projection and turning intention into manner, using ritual to create intention and to evolve that intention to affect the local environment around them by virtue of projection of consciousness. It's Franz Barden, it says Rober Garde. It's the whole, whole aspect of it. Well, what they did is they had an individual said, okay, we're going to tie a. We're going to tape an envelope on your forehead and we're going to place a blanket piece of photograph paper in the envelope. We want you to project your consciousness into that piece of paper and we want you to carve symbols into it from left to right. We want you to do it. After a few experiments, they finally found somebody that could. Okay, so then they. In a controlled environment, what they did is they said, okay, we're going to take it a step further, maybe 20 steps, if you will. And they remove the envelope from the individual's forehead, placed it 20ft away or so, and said, okay, go through the same protocol. We're going to see if you can do the same thing. And sure enough, something happened. This ties back into sending the alter ego. Right. This is really fascinating stuff, but what happens is through the ritual and after it was performed and everything, there was a biofield, a puscular cloud of light that had its own electromagnetic signature began to move from the individual, from her, all the way over to the envelope across the room. When that biofield or that translucent cloud descended down. Hello. Dr. Turner's case study upon that envelope. Yes. It had carved symbols into it. And so what I'm looking at now is, are some of these cases of or. And even biocygilization which occurred on this individual. Dr. Caller Turner's case study, where she's sleeping, doesn't realize it, but there is an entity or a person that's projecting an alter ego of itself as the alien form. Right. The function is being determined by the practitioner. And so built within that translucent cloud that's entering into the living room, Built into it is all of the sigils it's wanting to carve into her body in what she pers. Is this cool? It's crazy. What she's perceiving is alien.

B (92:21)

Yeah.

A (92:21)

Why? Because that's the vaulting of the form that they're operating off of.

B (92:27)

Another question that begs is how much of this phenomenon that's being perceived by anyone is. Is human in its. You know.

A (92:33)

Right.

B (92:33)

I mean, disembodied human, but still human nonetheless. That's, that's. That's something that's huge. I mean, people talk about astral projectors, you know, viewing their homes, etc. Within witchcraft. Yeah, Merkel talks about that. And within witchcraft, this is a, A common practice. This is something that they do. I was just watching that Netflix show with my wife and, and it's teaching them how to do this. It seems to be teaching them how to lucid dream. But from the lucid dream see state, they can then exit that and, and begin to project in this actual reality.

C (93:08)

I don't want to. I don't want to sound like a heretic.

B (93:10)

Go ahead.

C (93:11)

But here we go. I guess I'll just explain my ideas. The. But the more I do this show and the more I really think about this stuff, even just like what you mentioned about this incubus type creature, this. This debu. The tenants of it. You have the father, you have the son, and then you have the intention, which is like the spirit of it. I think that's. That's the third tenant. So I just mentioned flippantly the Trinity. And this is like the Trinity is a hard thing for us to wrap our heads around. A Lot of Christians don't even like it because we don't understand it. And I think we don't understand it because this is not an ability inherent to human beings. This is an ability that's probably inherent to Elohim or this. These type of entities, whatever they are. And we know that Elohim are the same classification as God and Jesus. But what you're describing now, kind of like blowing my brain here a little bit. You're describing just the resurrection of Jesus Christ as he comes back. They don't recognize him.

A (94:10)

No.

C (94:11)

Yeah, they. They see him and, and he's physical, but he walks through walls. He's eating with them, but he is. Something's not right about him. He's talking to his best friends for the last three years that he's walked with and reached and taught, and they don't recognize his face. He appears different to them, but does. Now, the Bible doesn't specify. Does he appear different to each person looking at them? I don't think. How could, you know, like, if I'm colorblind and that's orange to me, but it's blue to David and we're describing. Yeah, that. But that's always blue to David and that's always blue to me. You know what I mean? So.

B (94:44)

Well, it's. You know what we know. You know what's the same thing is when you see an occultist who is finding within their efforts to manipulate this reality the purest sacrifice that they possibly can.

C (94:59)

It's the same.

A (95:00)

That.

C (95:00)

This is what I mean, and I don't mean to.

B (95:02)

People will get over with that.

C (95:04)

Yeah, yeah, they're going to get upset with it, but I don't. I honestly don't even care.

B (95:07)

Well, you're talking about God's laws. Yeah, these are. And. And these things twisting it, inverting it and bastardizing or just recreate.

C (95:15)

Yeah, this is the way it is and this is what they can do to manipulate it. Now, I think there's certain power levels. It seems like God, Jesus Christ, the

B (95:23)

Holy Spirit, God, do it the best.

C (95:25)

Ultimate. Yeah, they have the ultimate power level. These other things might need energy or loosh or worship to recreate, to manifest and do these certain things. But it just seems to me like the same principle.

B (95:37)

It's.

C (95:38)

Am I. Am I off here?

A (95:40)

No, I think they're inverting it, though. I mean, what we're looking at here is a form. Form. And I want to say this, too. It's not reincarnation. What we're looking at, by virtue of these rituals, it's transmigration, guys. This is why again, that the word D book, if you want to look at the definition, it's literally, literally means the impregnation of the dead in the bodies of the living. Something is returning. And that's why. That's why in necromancy they called him the oath Uva, why it's the Revenant, why he's returning, what it what and who is he returning through the avatars. It's birthing the app, the social skin and demonology. And I think that does, I guess, hopefully answer some questions. I mean, we can go in any direction we want to now, but that's just pretty much where I'm at. And I believe a lot of this ties back to these entities.

B (96:32)

You know what then here, here's a good pivot if you want to bring this up on stage. Top. So. So this was something I actually sent you on Instagram. We briefly talk about it, but this is from the release of the Epstein files to the doj. And this was a correspondence between Jeffrey Epstein and Lawrence Krauss. And what's happening here effectively is Epstein is asking, he's outsourcing, it appears, a argument. He's asking Lawrence Krauss to formulate an argument in the form of an article to debunk claims. And these claims are of three elements. And it seems to me, I could be misinterpreting it, but it seems to me that he wants to separate correlation that individuals are drawing between alien abductions, ghosts, which, given what we've talked with you about here today, a ghost seems to be one of the many forms that the phenomenon will present to you at any given time. I would say it's a demonic entity, entity. And when I say demonic, I mean something that is in opposition to God and to mankind and maybe even seeks to have a parasitic relationship with human beings, whether that's for an energetic, energetic exchange or otherwise. So ghosts, alien abductions, and then the third element is out of body experiences, which is interesting. It could be categorized as near death experiences. It could be categorized as what you've described here. You know, leaving the physical form, manifesting or traveling in some sort of, you know, realm as a orb or something like that, astral projection, remote viewing. This encompasses a lot of that out of body experiences, anything that transcends the physical form or leaves the physical form behind. And he'd like it to include some of the criticisms that have been bought against these things to kind of dismiss them. And he even goes as far as saying, I'm not going to attribute your name to the article. So this is interesting because Epstein seems like a guy who is funding all sorts of research Having to do with sort of parapsychology or psionics or psychic phenomenon. You name it, he's interested in it. I find it fascinating that a guy like this would be outsourcing for this argument. And in that way, it almost makes me go, well, if you couldn't formulate an argument yourself, why would you want there to be one? And why outsource to another individual and try to separate these things that in. In this discussion alone that we're having Seem to have so much overlap.

A (99:12)

Yeah. So, excuse me. Something interesting about Epstein. And so, years ago, did an interview about necronetics. And I got an invitation to go on a David Ike show. And I didn't know much about his work at that time. But we get on there. They had just interviewed Juliet Bryant, and I didn't know who she was. And so we get into this conversation, and he's like, yeah, he's like, I had Juliet Briney on here the other day. And she's going into some kind of ritualistic manifestation that occurred with Jeffrey Epstein. I'm like, oh, that's weird as heck. You know, that's very, very strange. According to her, though, that there was a time when they were copulating, and out of nowhere, he shape shifts. So the argument's not, is he a separate entity? It's almost as if this gets back into some of the pathology I had years and years ago. Where in the Apocrypha of John, the Nanagamati tax. I'm not saying it's scripture. It's not. But there is a sexual pathology present within those case studies that we have throughout all of history, Even with this particular Epstein event. Where in that particular passage and Long Codex 2 of the Apocrypha of John, it says that these beings took women of their choosing. And they stared into their eyes first. They appeared as a lover, a mate, your classic incubus archetype. And then they said that after. During copulation, at the moment of conception. This is a ritual. They stared into the eyes of their victims, and at what one point what looked to be their husbands Turned into the image of the actual entity possessing them. Oh, no. And when you get back into that ritual, it was what's called an abstracted tradition. So the ritual and these occultists believed that whatever image the woman is focused upon at the moment of conception, they will birth that material image through their womb. As a biological avatar. That's how I got on that show. And then once we started talking about Juliet Bryant's case study with Jeffrey Epstein, I realized why he was into eugenics, why he had a certain. Again, if you. If you look at the age group he dealt with primarily, it's the same problem we're having with the phenomenon to where it's monitoring their fertility, trying to self replicate. It's not just pleasure I'm trying to impregnate, because a perfect pregnancy will birth perfect possession. This is why, again, the gold standard of possession is not just within one or two, you know, scriptures, unfortunately. I mean, we have Malachi Martin's theory. A perfect possession being literally where you go through different stages because it's fluid, right? There's a spectrum. The last stage, the most complete possession, is perfect possession. And that's when you have the software merging with the hardware so much that for 25, 30 years, he's a deacon, she's a Sunday school teacher, right? Or they're a physician. Out of nowhere, the inhabitant within the parasite within the host manifests and they go ballistic and do something evil. So Malachi Martin's theory was that's perfect possession. Now, that's contrasted with. With Montgomery's theory on possession, which was walk ins. Okay. What we're dealing with there, to me at least, is an entity not unlike his buddy Wexner, where it's the entity within him that's using him to replicate his own consciousness into a new body. And. And I'm not saying he didn't obviously did bad things, and a lot of it was for pleasure. He was a disgusting being. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there is a eugenic aspect to this where they're monitoring fertility, and their victimology was all about that. And so that's what I think they were referring to.

B (103:50)

Well, there are. There are many individuals who willingly engage in this sort of situation. I always say that there's a. There are. So Dr. Jerry Marzinski, who we. We cite often on this show, will say that we all have schizophrenia. You know, it's just that the medical. Medical diagnosis is incorrect. And what you perceive as intrusive thoughts is the same thing that a schizophrenic patient perceives, but at a much higher degree where eventually this thing becomes audible and. And visual in. In some extreme circumstances. But just like there are degrees to that, there are also degrees to which people enter these covenants with these entities. Right? And so some people are Doing things unwillingly, giving over, you know, consent and permissions in. In one activity and another and another until they all mount. And then, next thing you know, this person's life is in the. Because these things have so much access to them that their life is basically spiraling out of control. And if they don't identify the actual core reason, they might be, you know, doomed. But then there are those who are knowingly engaging, but they're knowingly engaging with something that is deceiving them about its nature. Right. So. So spirit guide or, you know, you name it, whatever. The thing is, David Icke is a fascinating character, but I do think he's. He's fundamentally misunderstood. The thing that imparted a bunch of information on him back in the day. There's actually. In his book, he says that he went into basically a stroke and got a download, and he got this download. And I do not doubt that he got this download, but he got it from ascended Atlantean masters, which to me, in my opinion, is just another form. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (105:45)

You didn't know that?

B (105:47)

Yeah. It's a fascinating thing. It's. It comes up pretty often. You can see that there are forms that these entities like to take at any given time. Ascended masters is one of them. Atlantean said it. Said it. You know, you name it oftentimes, you know, if you're familiar with Buharij, it's the Eniad, the Egyptian Ennead. Even. Even this. This woman that the Bledsoes are communicating with has identified itself as Hathor, which is, you know, an Egyptian goddess, but also Ishtar and. And a multitude of other things. Damn it. There it goes again. I gotta get that word out of my vocabulary. It's a great word, dude, but, you know, it's identified itself to him as. As. You know, it goes by many names. And so. Yeah, but then there are those who, I think actually have a very good idea of the nature and identity of the thing that they're engaging with. And so even if Epstein was, you know, piloted, for lack of a better term, by something, an intelligence external to himself, he seems to me to be a man who is so in the know and so immersed in all of this that I. I doubt this is. I doubt he thought it was the spirit guides. You know what I mean? I doubt he thought it was a benign maybe, you know, where people think it's ancestor worship and that they're communing with their deceased loved ones. I think Epstein probably had about the highest level of knowledge into the nature of the thing that he was engaging with and consented to, you know, whatever this relationship was.

C (107:22)

I do want to say something about names because just a scripture that's been like, bothering me lately. Revelation 19:12. We're talking about Jesus when he comes back, what he looks like. His eyes are on fire, he has crowns, but he has a name on him. It's a name inscribed on him that nobody else knows and only he can read.

B (107:42)

That's fascinating.

C (107:43)

It's fascinating. It's like, so what does that mean? Like, you're, you've seen it, but like, you just can't understand. There's something very significant about these names and that's why they continue to lie to us or rename themselves or obfuscate who they actually are. But the sigils are a big tell, right? Because that actually might be.

A (107:58)

That blew my mind because that should not be happening. And even then, I mean, the civilization. So first of all, I didn't coin the term civilization. That was Austin Osman Spar. So people can like Nathaniel. Thanks. He's a little large. No, I'm just saying I'm using that term from that particular cultist. But yeah, that was a game changer for me. Even with an incubator literature, because you should not have secretions and sigils. And at the same time, if it's an incorporeal entity, what you're looking at is an impract, embodied practitioner trying to transfer his consciousness by virtue of sigilization and secretion. One facilitates the impregnate, the pregnancy, the other one facilitates the implantation of his consciousness. So whatever we're dealing with, again, when people say, okay, yeah, they're all spiritual, kind of, yeah, they are. But there's a physicality to them as well. And there's this, this, this kind of dynamic that it blows my mind. But I think again that whatever we're dealing with, the government is hiding at all. Yeah, if we knew.

B (108:59)

I mean, I, I just want to ask you because, you know, we're coming to a close in the show. We're about to hit this two hour mark, and I just got to get your opinion specifically on. We're going back to this narrative control. And it's very apparent to me that there's a bit of a tug of war happening. And that tug of war has reached such a peak, especially recently, where I believe it was Trump was.

C (109:22)

You know, I'm sorry, I'm still reeling from this whole the sigil under the skin thing and how like, right up right in your face. The Bible is like this. It's saying that the name is inscribed on Jesus himself.

A (109:35)

Yeah.

C (109:35)

And only he understands it.

B (109:37)

It's like.

C (109:38)

It's just. It's a sigilization on him.

B (109:41)

Yeah, well, that. It's.

C (109:42)

It's the same principle.

B (109:43)

It's the same principle, but they didn't create it. They didn't create the principle.

C (109:46)

No, no, It's. It's the perfect embodiment of this. The same way that his birth is.

B (109:51)

Yeah.

C (109:52)

Similar to this idea of like, you know, a nephilim birth, like where you have, like, a human and then some sort of an entity.

B (109:57)

Yep.

C (109:58)

It's the same exact thing.

B (110:00)

And the same thing you see them attempt to do with Simmeramus and Tammuz and. And Nimrod and that you see them try to do this with Osiris, Horus and. And.

C (110:07)

And quick question. Are you having more. What's the correct word? Are you having more like, friendly conversations or people open to this in. In the Christian community or people that are in the UFO community?

B (110:20)

Oh, secular versus Christian.

A (110:23)

Yeah. Yeah. I've been called an occultist by people who have absolutely no proof or evidence. Evidence. They just didn't like me. So he's an occult. He's a practitioner and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think it's kind of a little bit of both, you know, I mean, especially when I had that conversation with ufologist, it was like, oh, my God, you know, and they sought me out. You know, it's like, okay, like, we gotta compare notes and stuff about this. But the government knows all this.

B (110:50)

Yeah.

A (110:51)

And so what's been more difficult with me is the phenomenon pushing back on me. Now people want to ask, okay, like, what is the phenomenon to you? Because there's an hierarchy. I understand that. Think of the phenomenon as a cryptid consciousness that facilitates the successful fulfillment of the ritual. That's what I'm looking at. A cryptic consciousness. Something out there that's almost anti matter, anti life, that it wants to replicate itself through others and that it conjures the conjurers. And it's almost like a parasitic presence. Now I'm gonna take this real quick and I'm gonna go into this idea of the phenomenon kind of manipulating not just our perception, but our instincts. And you originally, in the very beginning of the show, you asked me about mold and different kinds of life forms that hijack. Yeah. I would go and compare the phenomenon to tax, Toxoplasma, Gandhi, where it's a parasitic presence, really, that will hijack the neurology of a mouse. And it will cause the mouse to.

B (112:01)

Now wait a second year. I have. I. I have to tell you before you go any further, I love cats.

C (112:08)

No, no, this is different. That's toxoplasmosis.

B (112:10)

Oh, okay. Thank goodness. Because I love my cats and I recognize it's because I, I live where they pee.

A (112:17)

Right. Well, what it will do is it's called neuroparasitology, where it will hijack the neurology of the mouse and cause it to crave the urine of a cat.

C (112:28)

Ah.

A (112:29)

The reason is because when we talked about the host and the parasite as, as with respect, as it relates to the phenomenon in hauntology, parasychology, we thought the first victim is one. That's it. That's what it's after. It's not, right. It. It will take that person, hijack them to get to the real host it's after. Same thing. First thing it does is it convinces the mouse that the cat is no longer a predator. The phenomenon begins to conjure the mouse. Why? Because if it can convince the mouse that the cat is not a predator, then it will go to where the real host is. And so it changes the neurology of that mouse to go to. He gets eaten by the cat. And now that parasite has a new host, it's really, truly been focused on. The first thing it does is it removes the fear away, takes it from that person, that individual, that mouse. And now what we're looking at is the diversification method where I can say this, that we can cut, I don't know, summarize or whatever you want to do, buddies, but here's the thing. So the phenomenon diversifies itself. And I've long mentioned this in my interviews, where I would like another two. What's called the Iranian spider tail viper, where what you have is this snake that realized that its main prey is a bird. And so in order to eat, eat the bird, it has to present itself as something the bird wants to eat. And so at the very tip of its tail, there is the abdomen, in legs, if you will, of a spider. And what it'll do.

B (114:22)

It's actually phenomenal.

A (114:23)

Oh, it's unbelievable. So what it will do is it will hide itself in a rock or something in shade, it will begin to flip its tail back and forth, forward, right? And then what happens? This is what I'm talking about between form and function, right? And the diversification of this intelligence, where the bird will look at the, the, the spider and think, okay, spiders play by Spider rules. That's an alien gray. It's not going to sigilize me, see? And so it will dive bomb. It will latch itself to that spider, not realizing that that's a singular intelligence that's going to win. That's going to send information from the tip of the tail to the head of the snake. And before you know it, you were convinced of form, the true function starts to manifest to you. That's what I think is happening. That's why we have orbs projecting apparitions, orbs projecting physiological constructs. Why? Because we have the ability to focus on form and mythologize that mask, mythologize it. Meanwhile, the true intelligence is manipulating us.

C (115:40)

Well, another question here. So with the snake, this is a great example, but the information is only going to the head of that snake. With this mythology, the mythologizing that we're doing and the thing that we are seeing and going toward, where is that information going? Is it going to one or. Or is. Do you think that there's like a hive mind?

B (116:02)

How.

A (116:02)

How are these things, in a way, in a hive mind? So we can have the same species but a different status. There's definitely an hierarchy there. And my colleague Steve and I have talked about this extensively, where certain countermeasures will completely annihilate some of them. You know, like, we. We had friend John and NHI discussions the other day, and she's talking about using a camera, right? Using a camera, a certain kind of camera. And, and I think that a lot of these kind of measures will work for certain entities, but at the end of the day, and this is still something we're looking at, but depending on what they want to do, they can send what are the big guy sent and suspend a lot of these rules. And that's, again, that's why we're applying rules to the mask. And then we start to entertain that and realize, okay, there's something beyond that, that it's. It's in communication with, and they do share information. This is why we have people like, I think it was Ted Rice and a couple other people who were believing they were talking to their guides. Steve Mayor told me the other day about a case study where for 26 years, an individual thought that he was talking to his dead relative for 26 years, and someone convinced him, ask him, like, these questions, like, you've got to push back on them, you know, like, what if it's not your brother? And then finally he pushed back on this guide. And the guide was like, yeah, I'm not your brother at all, because I don't know these ANSWERS. So for 26 years. Right. My point though is it's not just that pathology being represented. We have cases where the guides are, in fact, practitioners, the remote viewer. So there again, that's the, that's the spider and the snake. The spider is the manipulated alter ego of the snake. That's the form that we're attracted to. Meanwhile, the function manifests. So that's what we're looking at now. Yet I'm not saying I'm 100. Right. I have theories. And I do appreciate you guys having me on and dealing with my stupid coughing episode, man. That's actually never happened. 400 of my shows.

C (118:16)

Don't worry, that happened to me before. It's the worst.

B (118:19)

Disgusting.

C (118:20)

When you were drinking, you're like, something gets stuck.

A (118:23)

Yeah.

B (118:24)

All right then, so we won't keep you any longer. I guess the, the final question that I, that I want to ask you is one that we've kind of become keen on asking our guests because we find ourselves talking to people who are, you know, they're, they're deep into it. They're deep into it and they're dumping a disproportionate amount of effort and man hours and research into these really fantastic concepts and ideas. Nathaniel Gillison, in all of your work these days, you know, on the cusp of disclosure and in the wake of the Epstein files, etcetera, you name it. Are you having fun?

A (119:02)

Not really. I mean, I, I, there are days I want to get out of the field. There's at least two or three days out of the week where I just want to call it quits and leave. Wow. Yeah. The personalities in the field, the pushing of the narratives, the dogma over the data, the, the amount of the phenomenon that pushes back against me, you know, there's some days where I just, I disconnect from everybody and I hide and just in the darkness, just, I don't know, listen to podcasts or something. But I mean, the fun. So you gotta stay on the origin story in my life and my career, you know, I was haunted by the phenomenon at a young age. And so at 8 years old. And so a lot of this is me trying to understand what I encountered and at least added value to everyone else's pilgrimage because I've talked to people who are 60 years old, but when you really get down to it, they're still that 8 year old boy or that 7 year old girl, that they may be an executive, they may be a CEO. They may be a pastor, but deeply within them, there are. There are. It's trapped trauma, if you will.

B (120:17)

Let me ask you this, Daniel. Do you find any? Because I'm very similar. I have a lot of this as well. And I do believe that the same phenomenon is what drove my. My grandmother, who was much more of a mother figure to me, to a very early grave. And I wonder. I find this to be quite satisfying in this particular way. And I wonder if you do, too, in your research and you're exposing this phenomenon. It is almost like kicking the phenomenon in the dick. And I wonder, do you find any satisfaction in that?

A (120:49)

I do. I enjoy a little bit of kicking. And then the thing is, is the kicking is the podcasting part, right? Of actually getting on her and releasing the research. Well, the pushback comes from. And I've had this happen of rituals performed on me without my knowledge where I have to go to the ER because I have a cardiac event, and then somebody will say, we only had a car. That's the secular. Then the sacred comes along, and then I get kicked. And they're like, well, you should have even suffered that if God loved you or if your relationship was right or. And it's just like. So I get it from, like, both sides. So I'm kind of an outlier, and I am very much a loner. And so it's something that I have had to lose, lived with my whole life to where it's being alienated from both sides a lot of times, where, you know, it's. It's stuck within the Veggie Tales version of demonology, and it's not really written in, you know, data. I love Veggie Tales. I grew up on Odyssey. All right, come on. Oh, no. Where's my hairbrush? Let's go.

B (121:53)

Vegetales version of demonology is a. Is a great. Something needs to be done with that. I think there's. There's something good there.

A (122:01)

I'll tell you what, dude. I'm a big adventures and Odyssey guy, man. I grew up on that as a kid, so that's. It's a whole different thing. But that's where I'm at. I mean, fun for me is watching a good college football game and eating a bowl full of chicken wings. That's pretty much amazing. But what happens with me, guys, and I'll just be very transparent with you, is that I will get fresh revelation or some insight, and then I'll bounce it off some of my sources that are either in the occult or in parapsychology. I have to have those connections because I have to confirm it. I can't just think, I believe, and. But then I go and release the data, and then if it's not a stake being built for my burning, then it's somebody in, you know, in a secular world who's like, well, we don't like you because of this. This. So at the end of the day, it's fun kicking back, but between the phenomenon, I mean, guys, I've had experiencers be threatened for me. Like, I've had a person that. That was one of Dr. Carla Turner's experiencers that worked with him for a long time, just out of nowhere, it's blowing me up. But saying a fangling entity told me about your name last night, told me not to even mention your name, told me not to even look at your research. And I haven't had an encounter like that in 20 years. And so what I'm saying here is that I have to gain enough revelation to. To add to the conversation. But anytime I do, the phenomenon cease. And so then I have to back up, retract, disconnect, and hope that nothing happens. And so it's troubling.

B (123:47)

Well, brother, you're always welcome here. Any of your relay revelations are always welcome here.

C (123:51)

I'd like, I also like to say, hey, like, we're not. We're not digging as deep as you are. We're not at the intellectual level and have the same connections, but there's certainly a price to pay.

B (124:01)

Yeah.

C (124:02)

For anything you do in life. And when you're looking at something like this, the price is going to be heavy. And it has gotten heavy for. For everybody. Me and David are just, we. We're retarded. So we. We laugh in the face of, I guess, adversity or the things that are coming against us. And trust me, it's all the time. But you know what? Like, in. In my mind, I go, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. I. I have to do a thing, and I'm going to do that thing, and I'm going to be attacked whether I like it or not.

A (124:35)

We're on.

C (124:36)

We're on a set path. We're doing a thing. I could smile and I could have fun and laugh about it, or I could be sad and fearful, and I just choose not to be fearful.

B (124:46)

It helps when you, when you, you know, like, if you do a thing, like you dress up sometimes, every once in a while, like maybe your favorite character from a fictional movie, like a Indiana Jones or something. And, and you, you, you do something comedic to express that. And it really is cathartic in very many ways. And you need to have an outlet. I mean, you know, if chicken wings in a football game is cathartic for you, but that really is it. Like you need to have some other outlet because you stare into the abyss. If that's your only avenue, your only mode looks back. It's gonna suck, dude. It's gonna suck. But, but we have, I mean, we're blessed to have comedy as an outlet, which is tremendous.

C (125:24)

We're blessed to have Nathaniel Gillis as a guy that does this because there's a heavy price for everybody listening. Yeah, everyone listening that you're getting this information. This is not like just free. This is heavy.

B (125:35)

It comes at a price. It comes, it comes at a price.

C (125:37)

And thank you for, thank you for coming and delivering this to us.

B (125:40)

Yeah, brother.

A (125:42)

Always a good time, man.

C (125:43)

We love you, man.

B (125:44)

Yeah, I'm glad that we got this done too. It was, it was, it's an important episode and I think it's going to help a lot of people. So

C (125:55)

he's suffering over there.

B (125:57)

Let's get your plugs on, bro.

C (125:58)

Yeah. Where can they find him? Please, guys, go, go follow his stuff. So that way we can.

A (126:04)

So Paris symposia.com you know, you can be a paid member, you'll be a free member. We're going to be uploading a lot of free stuff for people as well. And then of course we're going to be uploading some other things to my YouTube channel. We're going to have all the NHI discussions on there eventually. A lot of my, most of my interviews, if not all of them, which obviously it's not my ip, it's theirs. So I'll just be linking all the interviews I've been on for like the YouTube channels for everybody to follow them as well. But yeah, man, thank you guys for having me on. The thing is, man, like, if, if people don't agree with, okay, like, take the meat, spit out the bones. But this, this is a lot of in depth research that I didn't come to because I was predisposed to it. Right. It wasn't some kind of conviction. I came to it because I, I was, I was wanting to be data driven and that's really what I have. But thank you guys. I appreciate it.

B (126:56)

Thank you, brother.

C (126:57)

Thank you, man. You've. You've done, you've done us a service. Oh, guys. Heavy day.

B (127:02)

Yeah.

C (127:03)

Until next time, don't forget to obey submit and comply. We'll catch you later. And the end is written in the

B (127:20)

book, in the pages they for. When the last trumpet sound in the heaven.