The Trojan Horse w/ Zach Killey

Summary

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NEPHILIM DEATH SQUAD

Episode: "The Trojan Horse" w/ Zach Kelly

Date: March 5, 2026

Host: David Lee Corbo (Top Lobsta), with Matt and guest Zach Kelly

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode of Nephilim Death Squad centers on the infiltration of occultic and New Age practices within the modern church, focusing specifically on the Enneagram. With guest pastor and investigator Zach Kelly, the squad deep-dives into the true (and bizarre) origins of the Enneagram, how it infiltrated Christian circles, and the spiritual and cultural dangers it presents. The crew blends deep research with their trademark irreverent Christian-comedy-conspiracy tone, aiming to equip believers and challenge skeptics.

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MAIN THEMES & PURPOSE

• Exposing the true spiritual and historical origins of the Enneagram, debunking its claims of being an ancient Christian practice.
• Highlighting the dangers of replacing identity in Christ with New Age archetypes.
• Tracing links between Enneagram, occultism, and broader end-times deception.
• Encouraging critical, scriptural discernment in spiritual matters.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Setting the Stage: Identity, Archetypes, and Church Trends

• Matt and Corbo open with playful banter about show plugs and “getting kicked off the channel” (01:15–05:00). Zach Kelly is introduced, promoting his new show for biblical deep dives, "The Berean Files" (05:00–06:20).
• Zach explains the Berean ethos: examine everything through scripture––don’t blindly follow spiritual trends or fads (04:31):

  “Let’s get into the weird. Let’s get into the conspiracies. Let’s talk about nooks and crannies of the world—but let’s do it through a biblical filter.” (Zach Kelly, 04:31)

2. What Is the Enneagram, and How Did It Get Into the Church?

• Zach recounts how modern churches increasingly use the Enneagram for personality typing in hiring and counseling (12:55–15:46), noting its rapid rise despite problematic roots.
• Discussion underlines that embracing personality tests/labels for identity is a Trojan horse, supplanting Christ-centeredness with self-centeredness (09:36–11:39).
• Notable quote:

  “Any kind of personality test...if you let this thing dictate who you are, then you’ve just removed Christ from the picture.” (Zach Kelly, 09:36)

3. Historical & Occult Origins of the Enneagram

• Zach outlines that the Enneagram isn’t ancient Christianity, but a blend of mystical and occult teachings, first appearing through G.I. Gurdjieff—a 20th-century Russian-Armenian mystic influenced by Sufism, Kabbalah, and gnostic traditions (25:15–30:13).
• Oscar Ichazo (1960s, Chile) expanded it, receiving instructions via "divine coma" and encounters with the angel Metatron and a Sufi spirit, Green Ketub (32:48–35:16).
• Claudio Naranjo, using automatic writing (channeling spirits), ‘scientized’ it and brought it to the New Age Esalen Institute, where it spread to the Jesuit Catholic seminaries.
• Quote:

  “The Enneagram is a blank-slate Trojan horse shoved full of every kind of occultism and backdoored into the church.” (Zach Kelly, 25:33)

• The squad dives into symbolism linking the Enneagram to Kabbalah’s "Tree of Life," male/female duality, and cultic geometry (36:48–39:39).

4. How It Spread: Jesuits, Rohr, & Christian Publishing

• After New Age and Catholic channels, Richard Rohr (Franciscan/Perennialist) becomes the main champion, popularizing the Enneagram as Christian via bestselling books published by trusted Christian publishers (51:04–53:32).

• Rohr’s theology denies biblical essentials (Christ consciousness vs. Christ, universalism, panentheism).

• Zach reads:

  “It’s not about Christ the person, it’s about the Christ consciousness...There are no sins, the only sin is to think that God does not already dwell in you.” (Richard Rohr, cited by Zach, 58:12)

5. Why This Matters: Identity in Christ vs. Occult Self-Discovery

• The group stresses the temptation (and historical pattern) to look outside scripture for self-knowledge, referencing the Israelites and the golden calf (109:13).
• Any system that provides an alternative spiritual path or identity (Enneagram, tarot, astrology) not rooted in Christ is described as spiritual idolatry and a gateway to deception.

  “It hijacks mankind’s natural desire to find this identity, but we’re supposed to find this identity in Christ.” (David Lee Corbo, 53:32)

6. Parallels with Other Occult Systems and End-Times Unification

• A deep dive into the symbolic use of 'nine'—Enneagram, Sufi intellects, the Baha’i Faith (universal religion), Nine Angles in Satanic ritual, and Lovecraftian mythos (84:29–90:30).
• The “nine” motif reoccurs in Satanic/occult geometry and end-times spiritual trends leading to a one-world religion, often headed by a divine feminine figure (BAHA’I, divine maiden, connection to evolving alien/UFO disclosure narrative).

7. Practical Warnings & Evangelism

• The danger of naiveté in the modern church: lack of discernment, insufficient biblical grounding allow occult practices to be rebranded as Christian (108:07–109:46).
• The importance of understanding enough about counterfeit spirituality to offer biblical answers—rather than closing off, equip yourself ('wise as serpents, gentle as doves'), but remain anchored in scripture.

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

On the Occult Roots of the Enneagram:

• “In a seven-day divine coma, he is visited by the archangel Metatron.” (Zach Kelly on Oscar Ichazo, 32:48)

On Modern Church Trends:

• “Did you even look into it for five minutes?...It’s all about the God of self. It takes five seconds.” (Zach, 29:24)

On Christian Identity:

• “Find your identity in Christ...Show me in the Bible where it says you’re supposed to figure out what number you are.” (Matt, 55:01)

On Richard Rohr:

• “It’s not about Christ the person, it’s about the Christ consciousness... as long as you see the Christ consciousness.” (Zach quoting Rohr, 58:12)

On Universalism and End-Times Syncretism:

• “All religions come from the same God, that all religions are true, they all point to one truth, that humanity must be unified under Baha’i.” (Zach on Baha'i, 88:42)
• “It’s the same divine, feminine garbage.” (Zach, 90:25)

On Practical Discernment:

• “People who work with money don’t learn every type of counterfeit. They know the real money so well that when they encounter a counterfeit, they know it immediately. I think that’s true, but also, sometimes you need to know enough to walk somebody else off the ledge.” (Zach, 75:57)

Comedy & Tone Highlights:

• Banter about “mini gram” (Enneagram), “Kabbalah energy drink,” and gags on running jokes about identity, spiritual naiveté, and “grandma maxing.” (Throughout, e.g. 29:00–80:00)

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TIMESTAMPS – IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

| Time | Segment | |----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:00 | Zach Kelly introduces “The Berean Files” & explains Berean ethos | | 09:36 | Discussion: personality tests as idolatry/identity theft | | 12:55 | Enneagram’s infiltration into modern churches | | 25:15 | Occult roots: Gurdjieff, mysticism, and the "Trojan horse" analogy | | 32:48 | Oscar Ichazo’s divine coma, Metatron, channeling, and Nine personality types| | 43:19 | Naranjo, automatic (spirit) writing, New Age Esalen Institute | | 51:04 | Richard Rohr and the “Christian” publishing push for the Enneagram | | 58:12 | Rohr’s universalism/panentheism laid out clearly | | 84:29 | Occult “nine angle” rituals, Satanic group connections | | 88:42 | Baha’i faith & universal religion links | | 109:13 | Golden calf, false idols, and modern spiritual substitutes | | 113:21 | Rohr quote: “the whole Enneagram is called the face of God” | | 116:01 | Gary Wayne, mob-boss demons, collectivization of the spiritual world | | 117:14 | Wrap up, plugging Zach’s projects |

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STRUCTURED TAKEAWAYS

What Listeners Should Remember:

• The Enneagram is not an ancient Christian tool, but a modern occult invention (“Trojan Horse”) with roots in spirit channeling and esoteric traditions.
• Adopting New Age practices for church growth, identity, or self-discovery leads away from Christ-centered faith and towards spiritual deception.
• The recurring “nine” pattern ties together New Age, occult, and even pop-cultural end-times narratives—often linked to universalism and the divine feminine, foreshadowing a potential unified world religion.
• Scriptural discernment and a strong spiritual anchor in Christ are critical. Don’t be spiritually naive simply because someone claims Christian branding.

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FINAL ENCOURAGEMENTS

• Zach Kelly and hosts: Stay curious but vigilant. Don’t lose your biblical anchor while learning about “the deep things.”
• Corbo: “We’re not called to play it safe... We’re called to make disciples of men. And sometimes in order to do that, you need to be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves.” (65:35)
• “There’s only two ways. The way of Christ, and everything else. The Enneagram drags you from the church to all of this if you let it.” (Zach Kelly, 107:22)

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WHERE TO FIND ZACH KELLY

• Salty Saints Podcast: [Available on Spotify and anchor.fm]
• New project: The Berean Files (coming soon to YouTube and podcast platforms). Avoid the Mormon Salty Saints by mistake!
• Follow for updates (118:13).

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Nephilim Death Squad: Stay curious. Stay dangerous.

Transcript

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[Matt]

Disgusting. Top Lobster Productions. Shadows of the Ancient Ones.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

They never went away.

[Zach Kelly]

They're still here today.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

When the last trumpet sounds and the heavens crack. Ne death squad. Death squad. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Nephilim Death Squad. I am David Lee Corbo, AKA the Raven that is Top Lobster, the father of disinformation. We are joined by Matthew Hepper. Hepper. Hepner. Hepner. Merchant of Brown Water. And he looks like a criminal. Yeah, don't do that.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You guys kicked me off the show. Did you tell everybody?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Is that what this is? This?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, you guys kick me off the show. You know, you're going on your own channel now.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

You can't be on this is the the Hood.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Does everybody know?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Somberness. Somber.

[Matt]

Well, I guess if you want to really plug your stuff, they could know.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, that's true. Also the host of Straight Bible, which is now on its own channel. You guys should go and find that and subscribe to.

[Matt]

You guys remember when he was like, I don't want to plug. I hate plugs.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Plugs are for I don't want to plug. I just want to be on the same team. You guys like. No, you got to go on your own channel.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Let me ask you something. I cut these meats and cheeses and you ate an incredible amount of them, and you got your hood up and everything. And I just feel like there's a lot of disrespect going on. I'm hurt. That's what this is. About? You're eating your feelings.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Can we just introduce the guest?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, we have to get through plugs. Don't rush the plugs. It's the art form, guys. Patreon.com forward/nephilim death Squad. Sign up there and gain early access to episodes ad. Free viewing experiences. Also unedited versions. Very important. You also get something. What do you get? Early dibs. The tickets to Bohemian Grove, which we just found out that the venue wants $16,000. And I don't know how.

[Matt]

We have no venues to be determined

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

when the venue is gonna happen. $16,000?

[Zach Kelly]

What the.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Anyway, when they do drop, they'll be there. Also, discount codes off merchandise from Top Lobster.

[Matt]

If you didn't want to compete with blurry creatures, we could just.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I knew that's the thing.

[Matt]

Small.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

We don't have that Aaron Rodgers money. And I don't know how the hell we're gonna pull this off.

[Matt]

Criminal. Today we have.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Take that hood down, you disrespectful Zach.

[Matt]

Returning Pastor Zach Kelly.

[Zach Kelly]

What's up, guys?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Let's remind everybody who you is, what you do, where they find you.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, So, I mean, I'm a pastor. I. I've had a podcast for, like, four years now that's really been on the back burner for some months, and these guys kind of talked me back into getting back at it. So we're going to be starting up a new podcast here soon. Was called Salty Saints. We're going to be calling this one the Berean Files and

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Files.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

That's heavy, bro.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What's the Berean Files? Come on.

[Zach Kelly]

Do you know who the Bereans are?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, I'm an idiot. Please.

[Zach Kelly]

Okay, so. So in the Bible, Paul's talking to this group of people called the Bereans, and he commends them because they don't just take anything he says at face value. They take everything he says, and they take it back to scripture and they test it, and then they come back and they say, okay, we accept what you've said. And then they accept him, and. And so it's sort of this idea of, like, you know, let's get into the weird. Let's get into the conspiracies. Let's talk about, you know, the nooks and crannies of the world, but let's do it through a biblical filter. Let's take it all back to scripture. Let's not just get swept up in, you know, every given thing going on on Instagram, every trend, right? So, like, let's test It. Let's talk about the weird stuff. Really? We're just stealing your guys show. I hope that sounds okay, but.

[Matt]

No, it sounds like. That sounds like a straight Bible, but better. Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I didn't even think about how that really saw our show. I was just going to.

[Matt]

That's.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I like that dude. That's a banger.

[Matt]

Now I understand why I like it like that. That focuses on what the Bible says, but with a personality that's more like.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That isn't like sort of eaten away by the acid of coffee. Coffee's really acidic. I don't know if you know this coffee is highly acidic.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You guys are nasty and threw me off the channel.

[Zach Kelly]

Dude.

[Matt]

I'm a little hurt.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Throw you off the channel.

[Matt]

Yes, you did.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, maybe if you didn't act like, you know, you own the place. Oh man, that was so good. Anyway, that's all right. So that one more time for the audience. What's it called?

[Zach Kelly]

It's gonna be called the Brim Files. If you want to kind of stay in the loop on how that's coming along, I'd say it'll be up in the next, like in the month, within the month or so. Like, give it a few weeks. We're waiting on some new stuff to come in. Setting up a new kind of podcast area, but follow us at Salty Saints Podcast. Be careful, don't do the YouTube one. That's Mormon. That's not us. And I keep getting all their mail and I'm real over it. But yeah, follow us there. We'll keep you in the loop. Or you can call us.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Interesting about the Mormons is that for whatever reason, Epstein was like obsessed with their blood. I don't know if he's drinking it or what he's doing, but something about the Mormon bloodline. I think we're actually going to be talking to Heidi Love about that soon, so that should be interesting. All right. So, so good to have you back, Zach. What are we talking about? Dude?

[Zach Kelly]

Okay, so last time I was on, we talked, we talked about the church. I know. In that for like just briefly, I mentioned the Enneagram and if. Uhoh.

[Matt]

Uh. Oh yeah. You froze.

[Zach Kelly]

Ah, we're back, we're back, we're back, we're back.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay. You mentioned the Enneagram.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. Did you? You guys did or didn't know what that was?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I knew what it was.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I don't know what it is.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's the mini gram, bro. So it's like when church kids come in, they're Like, I'm a number four. I'm a number seven. I'm a number three.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What is that numerology for the church?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like their identity. Their identity is not in Christ. It's in some number system that somebody made up dude. And of course the kids like, no, a pastor did this. A pastor made up the mini gram. And yet each personality goes with a number. And I'm like, yeah, that's super stupid. They're like, oh, you're a number two. Or like, whichever number it is, that's like. Is the one that's like, yeah, I'm not gonna take part in this. They're like, oh, you're that number.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay, wait, wait. So this is fascinating because with. There's numerology which shout out to Gary the numbers guy. I've been praying for my enemies, all right? And I think the good things. And he's. He's my enemy and he's a fat retard. So I've been praying for him. Hey. And. Oh, okay, that's interesting.

[Matt]

I don't like that symbology.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, come on.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Cabalism. So he has, you know, within. Within. He doesn't have anything. But within numerology, it's the same thing. They attribute a number, and that number has, like, a pre. You know, determined set of attributes for a personality. What I will say is that it's so accurate. Not completely accurate, but it's accurate enough that it makes me wonder if it's just part of like. Like, for a while, I speculated, is this part of God's system? Is this the. The tools that he uses? Because God knows you and he forms you with a very unique personality. I believe that. I don't think that, you know, people

[Matt]

got 6 million tests taken this year.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

6 million. That seems a little high.

[Matt]

A little high. But.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But. But I think that, you know, that nature versus nurture conversation, let's say, where, like, some people believe that if you were born as another person and had all the same experiences that they had, that you would be exactly like them. I actually disagree with that. I think that it's pretty observable, especially when you have children, young children, you'll be like, they're so drastically different from one another. They're so uniquely their own personality that it seems like God formed them that way. And so a lot of these mystery schools seem to be focused on these systems rather than the creator of these systems. If these systems really are observable and do exist, whether it's numerology, astrology, or otherwise. Now I do think that the problem is once you start believing this, then these things can sort of manipulate you and tell you if they, if they can curse you. For example, like you're reading an astrology thing and it's like, this month you're just not going to be good with money. And you, you come into agreement with that spirit, Next thing you know, you're bad with money that month. So I think it's a slippery slope, but it does seem to be real. What do we, I mean, what do you think about all this?

[Zach Kelly]

So, like, where you're at right now, like, you guys have all kind of touched on the same idea. I think like, if we're talking to this thing high level, and I would like to get down into like the history of this thing because I think it's gonna just totally overturn any preconceived notions people have about it. But like talking where you're at, any kind of personality test, if you go here, I'm gonna let this thing dictate who I am, then that means you've just removed Christ from the picture, right? Like if we're made in the image of God, we're to look to God, right? Like as looking into a mirror and see how perfect he is and how fallen we are. And to see like the only thing bridging that gap between me and God is Christ, right? And so it's through his word that I find out who I am and how I should be. And reflecting on that, the problem is this comes in or any of these personality tests, if you let them, or astrology or tarot, like any of the, anything archetypal is going to like, archetypes aren't bad. Archetypes are like, they're real. They're not like totally make believe there's something to them. And you can learn from that because it's part of observing creation. But when you start to go, I'm gonna let this thing tell me who I am now you're totally missing the point. Everything's got to come back to scripture.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's about your identity in Christ, right? It's not your identity in numerology or your identity in any of these things. I think that's why a lot of people have a hard time when they don't have like sort of Christ at the center of the foundation of what they're building. If their identity is, let's say in like girl bossing, right? Or your identity is like your, I don't know, highly obsessed with your career or Any number of things. I feel like this typically falls apart for you and because it's not built at a firm foundation and at some

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

point, it's just embarrassing. It's just another embarrassment of the modern 501C3 system that, like, yeah, I'm gonna get my identity in this mini gram, this thing that's made up. It's a number, and anything other than Christ, I'm gonna get my identity in anything other than Christ.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Well, I'm curious as to hear. I'm curious to hear how did this work its way into the church? Are they saying that it has, like, biblical foundations? Like, how are they justifying it among the youth or the people in the church?

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. So, I mean, essentially what you've got here is what may. Can I. Can I kind of explain what brought this up? Like, why I contacted you about this? So I was listening to you guys episode with Red Panda Koala and. And you guys, you guys in that episode.

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[Zach Kelly]

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[Zach Kelly]

Select homes only that connect here. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. But like a day or two before that episode, my intern from this last year, she texts me and she's like, hey, I'm going to be interning at this mega church down in Georgia. And we'll give her some grace because she knows how I feel about that in the first place. But she's. She's going down to this mega church and they want her to take the Enneagram before they can even decide if she's someone they want. Whoa. So you got that? And so I give her like, the. My quick rundown of, like, yeah, here are the sketchy points of it. But that kind of sends me a little deeper down the rabbit hole, going, like, you know, is there more that I'm missing here? So I kind of crawl down it a little further. I'm at the gym like the next day with a couple guys that I'M kind of discipling. And we get talking, and I was like, yeah, you guys know much about this? And one of these guys is like, yeah, I'm in Christian counseling and he wants me to take the Enneagram. It's not a week ago I get an email from a buddy of mine who is a Christian counselor, and he's like, hey, I was wondering if you could just email some pastors in the area if there's anything they're like, you know, not super comfortable dealing with or anything that they would prefer a counselor deal with. Give them my number. I'd love to do that. I said, yeah, I can do that, man. Could you give me a website? So he gives me the website, I get on. And the Enneagram is one of the tools they use. It just keeps coming up. There's like three or four other situations like that where I'm like, okay, this thing's obviously still prevalent. And this is something I actually talked about on my podcast years ago with Marcia Montenegro. So I jumped back in her book. She wrote a book with a guy named Don Vino and his wife. I think it's Joy or Joyce Vino. They wrote a book called Richard Rohr and the Enneagram Secret. And it dives into a lot of this stuff. So if you want to go to Overview, that book's a great overview. But we're also going to go some places outside of that. If you ask any given Christian today, what is the Enneagram like a Christian that is dealing with the Enneagram, they're going to say, oh, it's a personality test. It tells you how God wired you. There's nine different personality types. And basically so offensive, right? By observing these nine points, this nine pointed star, and we'll get there. You see these nine types. And it's not just like you're this type and that's it. It's like you're this type, and then you're, like, adjacent to this type. And it. It might be a weakness of yours or something, but this is the path God has for you is the whole idea. The problem is it's claimed as this ancient Christian practice, and it's not. It's a Trojan horse into. Yeah, no, I'm serious, man. It's. It's a train wreck and it's bad. Like, it's all over the place.

[Matt]

Bad.

[Zach Kelly]

We're going to be jumping around a

[Matt]

lot, so wait up, Zach. You're. You're familiar with the show. You've seen the episodes with John Lenhart Maybe.

[Zach Kelly]

Can you give me a refresher?

[Matt]

It's Ed Mabry's friend. He's the. The guy that has the course.

[Zach Kelly]

I don't know that.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I know it's a personality test as well, which is like. You know, I think that maybe there is something to some of these personality tests because they seem to resonate with people, and they seem to. Like, I don't think they. They would have much of a long standing if they weren't somewhat accurate. But, yeah, it is. I think to boil people down to just nine types is.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

They used to do that to me in rehab, bro. When I lived in the rehab. Like, anything you said about yourself, they were like, oh, you're that type of addict? And I was like, no, no, I'm Matt. Like a Matt. I'm a human.

[Matt]

So this guy has this plate, this thing called Flows Us. Yeah, I actually think it's kind of accurate. You can take the test and it'll tell you your uniqueness, your personality type, and it kind of goes down to understanding your brain. And then he.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You have to do this at work. Like, we had to do this at Trinity. Like, yeah, you have to do this in business. You have to do this in the world system. It's just when the church adopts it, it's just, like, a little interesting.

[Matt]

This is the thing about this. It's like, it's. It's been adopted by this guy, and it is. It is a very, like, corporate kind of workflow idea where you could figure out where your strengths and weaknesses are. But it's incorporated with his book that's called Modeling God, which I think it makes some decent points about, like, trying to understand the nature of God. But I'm not gonna lie. I like John, but it has given me pause. Like, he. He's given me pause.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Weird.

[Matt]

A bunch of places. And, like, one of the last interactions that we had with him was an interview with him and somebody that he's working with that is a Buddhist.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And that was a.

[Zach Kelly]

That was a. I listened to that one.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

One of the other few contentious episodes we've ever had.

[Matt]

Jason Dentroch. And it wasn't like I wasn't trying to be contentious, but I was. I was trying to understand.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

A little nasty.

[Matt]

No, I was just trying to understand where they were coming from, because I like all the guys. I like the people who suggested them. I was just kind of confused about the conflation between Buddha and Jesus Christ. I was like, I don't really see Any of that there.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And really, my. My question was like, what. What does Buddhism do about repentance, sin, forgiveness, redemption? And the answer was basically nothing.

[Matt]

But it's like a weird. Isn't it a strange slippery slope? Because, I mean, I think that these things are true, but I think that you can also go to a tarot reader and you can get a lot of truth from that. Like, we were just covering David's story. I don't know if you. You listen to it again. But, like, before we started this.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Shut up, Matt.

[Matt]

Your face doing the thing.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It was that David's thing was heavy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

He didn't listen to the first 20 minutes of it.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

No, dude, the silverware drawer, that was heavy, bro.

[Matt]

Okay, it was a heavy drawer. That's why he dropped.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's why I dropped it.

[Matt]

No, he goes, right before we started the show, I think the same day. I'm not exactly sure. Almost.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It might have. It might have been the same day, if not the same. Like two days or three days.

[Matt]

He goes on the strip in New Orleans. They're taking a vacation. He sees a tarot reader. Because he's.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yes.

[Matt]

The guy tells him, the thing that you're doing now for pleasure, you're going to be doing for. As a profession, you're going to be traveling a lot. A lot of people are going to hate you. Lo and behold, here we are about two years later, all completely accurate. Yeah, you. But I think that you. You had some issues. Probably you had a lot of poltergeist. Well, yeah, there was a lot of,

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

like, demonic spirits directly. Like, wasn't like a conflation. It was like, okay, this. This is. This is a real. It was almost like I jumped into, like, this weird spiritual warfare thing. But I think that.

[Matt]

Well, you opened up a door.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yes.

[Matt]

In order to see something that I think was true. It's not that the guy put a blessing on you. He's just telling you. He's like, yo, this is.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But that's how they get you doing. I think if I went back and they started telling me other, I would have been like, well, that other was real. Right? So now I'm going to start to agree. I'm going to nod my head yes. So let's say you. I go back to the tarot card thing and they start telling me all kinds of that's bad for me. And I'm gonna go, well, the other was true, so this must be. And by. By that time, those spiritual entities already got you. They gave you something that was true. So that you'd come back. They play a long, sneaky game. So, like, yeah, I've opened up a spiritual doorway to allow these things access to my life. But now, should I feel the compulsion to go back to this place, they got me on the hook, dude. They could tell me whatever, and I'm gonna come into agreement with it just

[Matt]

to, like, kind of tie up my point. I like, like John Lenhart. I think this flow says thing. There's something actually accurate about it when you do take this test, if you're honest with the questions that you're answering. But I'm super skeptical of going down and continuing to believe this route. Like, I'm not gonna go and dig any further, and I'm not going to attribute whatever this test told me about. I was like, okay, cool, interesting. And I put it to the side. But there is something about it that, like, you go down that road and. And we ended up, like I said with the last episode, we're talking about, like, oh, the overlaps of Buddhism and Christianity. And I'm like, therefore, what are we extrapolating from that? Like, so Buddhism is the same as Christianity, because now we're getting slippery.

[Zach Kelly]

You get. You guys had Izzy Griffin on the show, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, have you heard? I think. I think he might have even done a rundown on, like, his thoughts on, like, archetypes on here. Is that right?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yes.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. So, I mean, he's. He's got some pretty good shows on that, but, like, he talks about the full card a lot, and, like, he recognizes that he sees himself in the fool card, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. Like, the fool card, it makes sense. When you're at the bottom of the barrel. You have. You have nothing but possibility before you. That makes sense. Like, that in itself is not wrong. But when you shuffle the deck and you go, show me who I am, that's wrong. And it's like when you make this thing an idol, when you make this thing an idol, that's where the problems come in. Or when you make any of these things idols. And at their core, all these things are kind of like tarot decks. Like, anytime you're going to take a personality test and say, show me who I am, you're putting an idol before you in a lot of ways. Like, you're. You're letting it dictate you.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's where. So in that numerology thing that I was talking about earlier, this guy, he combines, like, numerology with Chinese astrology. I Think or Chinese. The Chinese, whatever, like New Year, whatever animal you are. And what ends up happening is you get like this really very like, seemingly accurate upon multiple levels. Like, it's, it's one of the more in depth ones I ever saw. I saw that and it was like, this is, you know, what you're like as a person. And I was like, ah, I can a lot of those things. And then what happens is it's like, okay, now. And this is what he does. Now, if you start doing things on, like, certain days, you know, you know, like certain dates, you can kind of get this thing to bend to your will. And like, if you start placing bets or if you start pricing things out at a certain price, you can kind of trick this system into funneling. When I'm like, oh, okay, so now what you're doing is you're telling me that I can bend God's creation to my will by manipulating these things that seem to have some fundamental root in the nature of reality. And, like, that's where immediately gets slippery. So if you're gonna show me like, hey, check this out. Doesn't this remind you of you? And I'm gonna go like, oh, that's fascinating. Then I might speculate, like, okay, maybe there's something about that, that, that is the. Maybe the system God uses to create a unique individual. But am I gonna go and mess with that thing? Turn it into an idol, Start using it to try to bend, you know, reality to my will? I think that's a, A real bad idea.

[Matt]

I'll be honest. A little. I have reservations about introducing it at all. Because, like, we talk about with psychedelics on the show.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

People like, oh, you, you're anti mushroom. It's like, in a way, yeah. I just don't want to introduce that to you because I don't know where you're at and I don't know what you're going to do with it. Like, that's just a reality. And I don't know, we kind of have introduced this thing in a sense. And I'm like, yeah, it's a little, it's a little strange.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, in all fairness, man, I mean, like, you look at kind of the fruit, something reaps like how many people that take mushrooms go come back and tell you they talk to God. They've got the whole universe figured out now. You know, like, some people go take psychedelics and then they're like, I've got it all figured out now, bro. And it's like, I Don't think that's good. I don't think you're supposed to have it all figured out now. I think that's a slow drip through reading scripture, you know, day or night.

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[Zach Kelly]

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[Zach Kelly]

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[Zach Kelly]

But I think if we. Are you guys cool? Kind of digging into the history on this thing and just kind of showing its roots?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, I was already looking into it a little bit. I'm like, is it. Did this guy channel to get this idea? Because it's like every. But it doesn't seem to be the case. But over and over again, it's like each time somebody has access to some system, it's like they got it through channeling. You know, that's how chiropractic happened.

[Matt]

Really?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

[Zach Kelly]

The problem with this one is it's not just like one person channeling. It's like a lot of people channeling. That's what we're gonna find out. Like, it's. It's a train wreck, man. That's why I like the Trojan horse analogy with this thing. Because it isn't really just one thing. It. To me, it feels like a big kind of blank slate Trojan horse that they have shoved full of every kind of occultism and backdoored it into the church and said, this is Christian accepted. And on the surface, it's this. It's this personality test. But if you start digging, it's going to lead you to every form of occultism. That's the problem. It starts like. Like I said, they say it's an ancient Christian practice. The thing is, if you actually trace this back to where it started, it starts with a guy named George Gurdjieff back in the early 1900s, and he's this Russian dude, it would be modern day Armenia. But he develops this shape, right? And it's just the nine pointed star. But you'll notice it's like not a complete star. It's like missing that bottom portion.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

For whatever reason, it's open.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. And I don't know that there's any reason for that. That's just what he draws. Right. There are no personality types connected to it at that time. But this Gurdjieff dude, his dad is a. He's a bard. And so Gurdjieff, at a really young age, is exposed to all forms of mysticism by all these people that are kind of coming through his dad's trade post. And all this he's talking to gets super intrigued. And for 20 years he starts traveling the world. He ends up going to Egypt, Central Asia, India. And he learns from dervishes, he learns from fakirs, and he learns from what he says are the descendants. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta be careful with that one, right? Yeah. So basically, like these holy men of different religions, like Muslim holy men, Sufi holy men. And then he claims he learns from the Essenes. Descendants of the Essenes, like of biblical times. Are you.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Is this guy he's working with, Oscar Ichazo?

[Zach Kelly]

No, Itazo comes later. Achazo's gonna pick up the teachings.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

So I. I don't want to interrupt, but I. Right here loves.

[Matt]

He loves interrupting.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's just fascinating. You're good up in the church. Because what he just said, right? Where it's like, it's an amalgamation of all these different mystic teachings. The idea that this is in the church is insane. Because later on he's saying that Oscar comes in and Oscar encompass classical philosophy, psychology, medicine, law, yada, yada. But Buddhism, Sufism and Kabbalah. So yeah, it's like that. That's the root of this thing, Zach. And this is what's in the church.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, so here, here's. Here's the other problem, right, that we're going to run into. So, like, everything I just told you about Gurdjieff is pretty speculative because it's all just kind of coming from his lips. So he's claiming these things happen, but there's no documentation of any of these things happening. And then all of his students start kind of building out the story more. So he has this dude named Uspinski that kind of takes.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I'm sorry, that. That's like their official symbol for the mini gram. It is like on the page.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's what's out? That's what's outside.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Christians are looking at that and they're going like, yeah, what's the problem here?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

They look at that, they go, amen.

[Matt]

So it's not spiritually dead, but, like, if you're not understanding the symbology that they're showing you, because they have to.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I've never seen that. It's just the minute kids came in talking about it, I was like, guys, guys, there's nothing to do with Christ.

[Matt]

This guy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Also, keep in mind, for lack of

[Matt]

knowledge, he's got a cobble. He's got a Kabbalah energy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I know he's got the Kabbalah energy drink in there.

[Matt]

I didn't know until we told him. We walked in, we said, oh, out of here.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, because we're the boys. We own the place.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Zach Kelly]

Kabbalah definitely comes into this.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, I mean, I can see that already. Right? It's just wild that. I mean, we're already off to a really bad start. 26 minutes in, and this thing's origins have nothing to do with Christianity.

[Zach Kelly]

Oh, no.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

This is the. This is the vetting process that these. These people are using madness.

[Zach Kelly]

They have no vetting process. That. That's my main complaint is we've got pastors, literally. Sandals Church did an entire sermon series on this, telling you how good it is and how Christian it is and how beneficial it is. And it's like, did you even look into it for five minutes? Like, you don't even have to dig that deep before you're like, oh, this is awful. Like, it's all.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's all about the God of self. It's not like it takes five seconds. The kids start telling me about. I'm like, this all revolves around you and your identity, and you want this. It's just like the love language is like, I want to be treated like this. I want. Guys, this is the love of self. You just need to be born again. That's all. Be born again. You'll die to self. You'll come alive to God, and none of this will matter anymore.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Why is he like this?

[Zach Kelly]

Exactly.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's just so foolish. When you see in the church, it's so foolish, man.

[Zach Kelly]

It's sad. It's really sad. But, like, basically what Gurdjieff does is he takes all these teachings, like Raven, what you just brought up, like, it's Buddhism, Sufism, Neoplatonism, and he claims to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but he brands his own version of it called Esoteric Christianity. And it's just this mixture of all these things. So really, it's the new age, is what it is, is. And so he starts using this shape because Gurjieff believes that all the secrets of the universe are found within the Enneagram, which is, like the craziest statement ever. But he starts developing these meditative dances. He starts developing music because he uses it as a scale within music to create songs. And then he develops a following. And so what you see is Uspinski kind of deems all this stuff Gurdjieff does as this thing called the Fourth Way. And that's sort of the teachings of Gurdjieff. But then this thing just goes silent for, like, decades. And then. Raven, what you were saying, Oscar, Ichaza, is that really the next big player we see? Pick it up. Are you familiar with Ichaza?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, I'm not. I was just doing it because I had this feeling that that channeling was involved. It's fascinating that turning it into a musical scale, now frequency is involved. So it's just like we're just getting deeper and deeper into all of the wrong. And not to say there's anything inherently wrong with frequency or manipulation, we talk about that when it comes to worship music. And, you know, whether or not you're. You're altering, I guess basically the. The frequency that a person's brain is tuned into. If you're gonna feed them scripture, if you're gonna feed them the Word after you create that state, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it's fascinating because we're getting into, you know, this manipulation. We talked about manipulating, like, the building blocks of this reality. I mean, this guy is doing dances. He's doing frequency work. He's, you know, pulling stuff from different mystic teachings. And, you know, Oscar came up. But no, I don't. I don't know much about him.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

So you're not familiar with Oscar?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Are you familiar with Oscar Mayer?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Stop it. Don't be. You're stealing people's jokes. I knew it. No, but see, when I look at the chat, I observe them. I go, yes, very nice hot dog jokes. And then I continue listening. You. You become fixated.

[Zach Kelly]

Okay, sorry.

[Matt]

Don't.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Don't do it anymore.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Sorry about that. That's a great joke. Whoever put that in there.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, go, go. See, now, you can't just steal somebody's joke and not attribute it to them. Whatever. Fine. You go ahead and do that. So, no, I'm not. I'm not familiar. I Am familiar with Oscar Meyer. Not with Oscar Ichazo.

[Zach Kelly]

So, yeah, so it. Chazo. He. He picks up Gurdjieff's teachings. He practices a lot of this stuff. He actually starts his own occult school in arica, Chile, in 1968. This is where it gets crazy. He goes into this thing that he refers to as a seven day divine coma. And so in this seven day divine coma, he is visited by the archangel Metatron.

[Matt]

Yo.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay, come on, dude.

[Zach Kelly]

I. Dude, I like. It's insane.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

So I met it. Talking about this. My. My cousin is like, I'm trying to get into music, but you. You're into conspiracies. Can you tell me a little bit about it? Metatron comes up, obviously, as being the. The angel that this guy channels. Carlos Santana. So, I mean, if you're making musical chords out of these. Oh, yep. And there's the.

[Zach Kelly]

Oh, brother. Have you. You guys have done this already? The Star of Metatron?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I mean, no, we've. It comes up occasionally, but not.

[Matt]

Pull it back up.

[Zach Kelly]

Pull it back up. It's Star of Venture.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

This is your drinks. Outside of drinks.

[Matt]

Yeah. This is your Kabbalah drink.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. It's the Star of David. It's also the Saturn storm hexagram. All the fun things.

[Zach Kelly]

And a lot of people attribute this to being at the center of the tree of life in Kabbalah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. Which is one of your drinks that Kabbalah drinks.

[Zach Kelly]

Oh, got it, got it. So, yeah, so Metatron is. We'll come back around to Kabbalah if that's cool. But essentially, Metatron tells him about the 108 enneagons, and that's where we see the personality types enter, because these Enneagons are what they use to determine your personality type. The other spirit he encounters in this divine coma is named Green Ketub, which is apparently a Sufi spirit. He gives him more information about these personality types, whatever. He starts piecing this together, and he store. He sort of. He is the first person to be attributed with coming up with the nine personality types. Now, Ichazo develops out this teaching, I guess you would say. And so he's got students at this school in Chile. Right. Once they ascend to a certain level, many of them report also coming in contact with Green Ketub. And so these spirits are not just visiting Ichazo, but also his students along the way.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Green Ketub.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, it's green, and then it's Qu. Tub.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What a stupid name for an entity.

[Zach Kelly]

It is a pretty stupid name. I'm gonna give you That I just

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

wondered if anybody had tried to create an artist rendition of this thing. But it appears to be to not

[Commercial Narrator]

to not be the case, day or night. VRBoCare is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly, because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either. At vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we've planned for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between, and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist, but we've got the peace of mind part covered.

[Zach Kelly]

So you already brought up the. The whole Kabbalah concept. This might actually be a good time to touch on it. Because you see, like, within Kabbalah, you got the Tree of Life, like, that's the whole. The whole central figure of the Kabbalah, right with the Sephiroth, the ten emanations of God. If you guys didn't catch it, I don't know if you've ever heard Taylor or Taylor Welch's podcast, the Deep End. He just had a guy on, went through the whole Kabbalah, did a really good overview of it. It was actually pretty interesting.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That came out because I've never heard of the guy until I saw somebody in a. In a chat today mention him peripherally. I just, like, looked at my notifications and it said some. Somebody was on the deep end.

[Matt]

That guy's like, huge.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And, and that's. It's a good show. And I was like, I never heard of that. Now all of a sudden, you're mentioning it. Very interesting.

[Zach Kelly]

It's an interesting episode. It helped me out with understanding some of the Kabbalah connections to this. But essentially you've got, like, at the top, you've got the. The place closest to God is what they believe, because the Kabbalah believes in an untouchable God, an unknowable God, but they believe, like, at the top of the Tree of Life, that's the closest place to God. And at the bottom of the tree, that's us, like, having not ascended through the tree at all. And then you've got the four ascending Sephiroth on each side of the tree and you're trying to ascend up through the tree to this place where God is. And then you've got like the same

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

thing that Masons do with Jacob's ladder. Is it so each rung representing a, an advancement in like spiritual knowledge or occulted knowledge. So you know, when, when, when people try to separate these things, whether it's Kabbalah or, or you know, Freemasonry, it's like it's the same. It's the same. And then you even have like the, the pillars, the left pillar, the right pillar, and, and you know, all this crap in Freemasonry, it's the same exact thing.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, question about that. Do you know much about the pillars? Is one male and one female?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, one is male and one is female. People suspect that that's what the whole 911 thing was about on, in a. You know, there are multiple things that it was about, but they are male and female. And then it's destroyed. And what's resurrected is one tower, meaning a unification. Just like the Star of David is this unification of, of male and female, among other things. It's like a really dense symbol that means a bunch of shit star, remember?

[Zach Kelly]

So that's the exact same thing in the Kabbalah, one side is male and one side is female.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yes. Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

And so, yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know that same thing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

They just, they, they change it up a little bit and then they say, oh, Freemasonry has nothing to do with that. Or at least people that are in the lower rungs of Freemasonry who have no idea what their shit is actually about.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

That's what all the obelisks and domes are about and everything.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, yeah, wieners.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, the reason that's so sketchy too is like Kabbalah promotes this idea of non dualistic thinking, right? Like that all things are contained within God. And so they believe in this breakdown of the binary. And so it's like there is no male, there is no female, there's only one. There is. Which you got to be careful because Jesus teaches something that could be twisted up to sound similar. The problem is Kabbalah totally gets rid of Jesus from the equation. So it's, it's, it's sketchy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Is this the idea where Jesus is like, you know, being one in Christ, there is no male and female.

[Zach Kelly]

That, that's what I'm saying. Like, so you gotta, you gotta be careful where you could see how like a New Ager or A kabbalist could try to make the bridge there, but Jesus is getting at a different point. So the reason I bring that up is because you've got Metatron, this cabal, the Kabbalistic deity. Right. Like, he's literally called in Kabbalah the little Yahweh. And they believe that he's going to be the Messiah figure that comes at the end of time. And so Kabbalah is trying to get everybody to kind of accept some form of Kabbalistic thinking to bring this Messiah. So you got Metatron over here, Sketchy dude. You've got green ketub over here. Sufi characters, Sufi spirit. The Sufis. There's a version of Sufism called Ismaili, I believe it's called. And they've got the nine intellects of God. And so you got God at the top, humanity at the bottom, and then you got the stair stepping down the intellects. And depending on who you ask, they might even refer to those as, like, thinking intellects, as in, like, possibly angelic intellects.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Independent and sentient. Makes a greater thing, but is still individual.

[Zach Kelly]

It depends who you ask. I mean, I've seen it written both ways. Some will say it's not, some will say it is. But that's interesting to me because, not to show my hand, but this stuff is gonna trickle into the Ennead as well, into the nine.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. Which makes sense because they're such a similar word, Right?

[Zach Kelly]

Exactly. Enia being nine. Right. And so you've got all that with

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Ichazo, day or night. VRBoCare is here 24. 7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly, because a great trip starts with a right support. And, hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

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[Zach Kelly]

He's got another dude, I think that Naranjo, Claudio Naranjo is studying under Oscar Ochazo, but he's a psychiatrist. And so he's kind of the guy that takes this and he takes it out of, like, the philosophical, and he kind of makes it more psychiatric, and he develops this out into like a quote unquote science. The problem is all the actual science scientists in this field look at it and say, there hasn't been, like, proper scientific scrutiny under this to even call it a science. This is pseudoscience.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, this is not even that old. I mean, like, he's old. He's dead, but. But he was operating very recently.

[Zach Kelly]

This is on the 60s and 70s.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, but he. He died in 2019, and you could see he was doing the circuit still while he was old. He looks like he's doing TED talks, actually.

[Matt]

Okay, Yeah. I mean, listen, why not? Why does all this stuff have to be, like, in antiquity? What was stuff now?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What was the correlation between Puharich and Chile?

[Matt]

It was Brazil.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Brazil. Okay.

[Zach Kelly]

Naranjo puts his hand to paper and through the process of automatic writing, asking spirits to write through his hand.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

There you go.

[Zach Kelly]

He develops out more information around the Enneagram. And so that's where he comes up with a lot of the, you know, quote unquote psychiatric side of things is through spirit writing is automatic writing. So more occult bs. Here's where it gets extra fun. Naranjo takes all of his findings to the Esalen Institute. Did I break up there? I'm sorry. I froze. No, no, no. Okay. So he takes it to the Esalen Institute. You guys are familiar with Esalen, right?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's familiar, but I can't put my finger on it right now.

[Zach Kelly]

So this is what Tupacabra and Red Panda turned me onto. I wasn't totally aware of this. I was reading through the book on the Enneagram, and I see the word Esalen. I'm listening to your podcast, like, a day later, and then, boom, Esalen. And I'm like, wait, what's this about? They were talking about, like, how sky watchers, I think, is what it's called.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

Are out of Esalen. So that's super sketchy. But these guys, Esalen is how the Enneagram kind of makes its way out to the Jesuits and we'll get there. But basically, if you look at Puharic Puharik when he did his original seance to contact the Nine, that was at some farmhouse like a couple decades earlier. But eventually what happens? Esalen becomes the main headquarters for where they contact the Ennead.

[Matt]

Yep.

[Zach Kelly]

And these are the guys putting out

[Matt]

the Enneagram when we, when we were looking. When I was looking this up as Red Panicoala was telling me about it. Yeah, this is, this is exactly what this was. Very interesting. So this is where DG Venode is. Is kind of operating out of. This dude's like a mystic.

[Zach Kelly]

Okay. I don't know much about that, by the way.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yuri Geller is like making the rounds now having to do with disclosure. And I think even pushing back against like, aliens are demonic.

[Matt]

Of course.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's fascinating. It's just another guy that's, that's associated with these guys.

[Zach Kelly]

I know Geller because he did the like, he did the spoon thing on like the.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

Old talk shows and whatnot. Right.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And he got exposed as like a fraud. And I don't know exactly what that looked like. But yeah, this is a guy that Buhari was, was fascinated with, I guess because he was doing the little sort of Professor X collecting all the, the psychic X Men. And. And so Geller comes up on his radar and he goes and checks him out. But yeah, this is very interesting. I, I see that these people. What's the name of this organization? The Esalen Institute.

[Zach Kelly]

It's a giant hippie coalition is what it is. It's a bunch of New Age hippies banging drums naked.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Spiritual exploration, psychotherapy, meditation, the study of consciousness. Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

So like at Esalen you've got a lady named Helen Palmer who is a psychic and an intuitive. And she then is introduced to the Enneagram and she sees this as a way to teach other people how to tap into their psychic and intuitive abilities as well. So now you've got this not just being used as a personality tool, but as this means of tapping into whatever powers they believe in from Esalen. I, I guess like if I were to break this down into like a structure, thus far you've kind of got. This thing's sort of underground and it's sort of this hush, hush, random, weird New age practice. The Enneagram. It then gets to Esalen and that's where it seems to break out into the New Age community. That's the point where Bob Ox, who is a Jesuit priest, he learns about the Enneagram, and he takes that to a seminary in Chicago, and he starts teaching other Catholics how to use this thing. Another guy that came alongside Ox, his name is Mitch Pacwa. I don't know if you're familiar with him. James White debated Mitch Pacwa a few years ago, and it was a pretty big debate. This is like 20 years ago, probably. And Pacwa, I think it's like 10 or 15 years after he kind of accepts the Enneagram as this good teaching, he comes out and he writes a book about it or. I don't know if it was a book or an article, but the book is called New Age Catholics in the New How Good People Are Being Drawn Into Jungian Psychology, the Enneagram, and the Age of Aquarius.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay, so he's saying. He's saying this is a negative thing.

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[Zach Kelly]

He. He changes his mind. He's initially on board, and then he recognizes this thing is bad news.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, yeah. 1992, I could see a lot of his stuff afterwards is. Is much more, I guess, Catholic aligned. But this one, 1992, a big deviation from. From what his future works appear to be about.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, so Bob Ox, when he takes this to Chicago, he starts teaching it in the seminaries. That's when you've got Richard Rohr, who is, I believe, a Franciscan priest. And that name's probably a big one to remember. He is like, he's the poster child for the Enneagram. All these people that want to talk about it, they're going to point you back to Richard, Richard Rohr as being like, the godfather of this thing, because he's the one that makes the push that gets it accepted into the church at large, whether you're Catholic or you are evangelical, whatever. From everything I've read, it seems like anytime something gets big in the Catholic circles at like, a convention level, if it's broad enough, it's going to make its way into the evangelical church as well. I've seen that with, like, you know, high church liturgy stuff kind of drifting over from the Catholic Church into more evangelical churches as, like, hey, let's practice more like, you know, meditative thinking on God's Word and things like that. A lot of that comes from the Catholics, and then we pick it up later. That's how the Enneagram makes its way into the evangelical church. Rohr has this group of students under him. They eventually write a bunch of books, and those are the books that get picked up by the church at large. Anyone listening to this that has gotten into the Enneagram in the past, you've probably read Ian Cron and Susan Stabile's the Road Back to you, An Enneagram Journey to Self Discovery. Or you've read Christopher Hwartz's book, and it is called the Sacred Enneagram. Here's what's sketchy about that. Both of those books are put out by major Christian publishing companies. The Sacred Enneagram came out in 2017. Zondervan Press put it out. Zondervan is a trusted publishing company within the Christian church. So the other one is ivp. Ivp Put out the Road back to you. Both of those are relatively trusted sources within the church. And so to be like, these guys are saying, this is fine. This is okay. This is Christian. My last podcast, we were part of a podcast network. We were part of Life Audio. Life Audio had an Enneagram channel. It was totally dedicated to the Enneagram. This thing's everywhere, man. And, like, it was Funny because, like, while we were on their. On their network, we were also putting out episodes, talking about how terrible the Enneagram is. So it was just. It was kind of funny.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But it feels like. Zach, it feels like it hijacks mankind's natural desire to find this identity, but we're supposed to find this identity in Christ. But it's the reason that we all have this, like, lingering who am I? Right? And what this thing does is it hijacks this thing. I don't think that it means to say that desire within you in your own nature to find out who you are is inherently bad. It's just being hijacked by any number of things at any given time.

[Matt]

Bite the apple.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, exactly. Bite the apple. Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But the offensive thing is that you've been saved and called with a holy calling in Christ Jesus, before the world began.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's unique to you. Like, you. Like, there's only. I'm the only one with the fingertips like this, man. Like, there's no other people with the fingertips.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, because you bite your nails down to the stubs.

[Matt]

Okay?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But for whatever reason, dude, like, God is. Does a very big deal to make individuals individuals. And so to group people together. Maybe it's just because I was always, like, seeing a counselor or in therapy or rehab and stuff, like, when I was young, and they were always trying to group us in these groups, and I was always like, no, I'm a human, a matt. I'm not like a number nine or a number four, a number two. And it's like. Like, at some point, like, you have all this history and stuff, and it's from the occult, but at some point, like, the first time the kid came in talking about it in the coffee shop was when I first heard of the mini ground. Like, that's stupid. I don't need to know anything else.

[Matt]

You got to say the real thing so that people can contract.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. What is the actual. Is it. Do they call it the mini gram?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

No, I don't. I forget what. But I called it. I always called the mini gram to make fun of it. Just to be clear. Like, I don't care about this thing, you guys. This is the mini gram. It' very stupid, and you should find your identity in Christ and make. No, no. Pastors like it. Christians like it, and they'd send me stuff. I'd say, just show me in the Bible where it says you're supposed to figure out what number you are.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What are they doing, though? They're using it to Determine, like, what your position in the church might be like. You would be a good.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I think they're just trying to hijack your. Your destiny.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, I know that, dude.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

All of these things that are making you a certain thing of a certain group, they're just trying to hijack your destiny in Christ.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right, but what do they. What do they think they're doing, Zach? Are. They're using it as a selection process for occupation, the people who like it. You're saying your name's not Zach?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's just making them feel important.

[Zach Kelly]

It seems. It seems to me like it's more. It's more about trying to understand your wiring. But like we already said, there's nothing psychological about this thing. Like, and so, like, it's not, like, if you really want to do that, go take Myers Briggs, which is actually psychologically tested. And I'm going to tell you to beware that as well, because it's all based on Jungian philosophy. But at the same time, at least that one has some psychological grounding. This one doesn't even have that. So the big argument you hear when you start telling people, hey, this is occultic, this is bs, they're gonna go, well, Jesus can. He can make anything new. And it's like, well, can Jesus make a Ouija board, you know, usable for church service? Can Jesus make shuffling the tarot deck usable for church service? And so it's like, you know, of course people are gonna like, well, no, we can't use Ouija boards, you know, but. But we can use this one. And it's like, well, why, though? How is this different? Is the.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

And so, like, that. That's the big complaint there. I think the. The thing about this, though, like, when people start pointing back to people and going like, well, Richard Rohr's a priest. He's really not. He got the okay by, I believe. Don't, like, rake me over the coals for getting this wrong. But if I recall, Pope Francis kind of signed off on Rohr, like, kind of accepted him, gave him the okay.

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[Zach Kelly]

Warren Chi. It's an energy someone gives off when

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

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[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Don't worry.

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[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

For 20 off plans, visit ahs.com listen. See ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including limit amounts, fees, limitations, and exclusions.

[Zach Kelly]

The problem is when you start looking into Rohr's theology, he's a perennialist and he's a panentheist. And so when you start breaking down what he believes, you're gonna find quotes like, it's not about Christ the person, it's about the Christ consciousness.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, boy.

[Zach Kelly]

And it's about. He literally says, think of the Christ consciousness like a kite flying above a tree line. It doesn't matter who's holding the kite. So it doesn't matter if you, you know, get to the Christ consciousness through Christ or Gandhi or Muhammad or Buddha, as long as you see the Christ consciousness. He says things like, there are no sins. The only sin is to think that God does not already dwell in you.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Because, man, almost like what Jacob Israel is trying to scream at me on Twitter if I paid attention and cared enough to read what he's saying.

[Matt]

This is also what. This is also what that episode about Buddhism was. And it's like, it's this weird thing to slip something in that doesn't fit.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And if we were, I guess, a little bit more agreeable, we would have let it go without any kind of pushback, but it was just kind of like, I don't like. I don't like any of this.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It'd be nice if the creator of the universe would have gave us some kind of messaging system so we could always see through all this, like, right away, like, immediately.

[Zach Kelly]

If only.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It would be so rad if we had, like that, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah. I call it like a Bible.

[Zach Kelly]

Oh, yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Just be like, yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Oh, this thing. Let me just line it up in here.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It says nothing to do with this.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Oh, but it's cool. Has nothing to do with this. So don't call it Christian. Call it playtime or fun, if you like to do that, because you want to know more and more about yourself, because everything revolves around.

[Zach Kelly]

Around you and who you see.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But that's the thing, though.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Do it. But it has nothing to do with

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Christ over and over again. It just seems like there are systems that. That are, you know, they permeate this reality. What? You know, if, if. If God used them as building blocks for this reality, then, you know, so be it. But throughout antiquity, you have all these instances of. Of either lowercase g, gods or spirit guides, something that was channeled one way or another, revealing some fundamental nature of the realm that we inhabit and then telling you, like, what to do with it. And it's like. I think it's in. In its rudimentary form, it's absolute power corrupts absolutely. Like, we're not. We're like children. We're not made to have access to these systems that are super complicated that God used to build this entire realm that we inhabit. And as soon as we get any piece of the puzzle at all, we're gonna do a bunch of super dumb shit with it. We're gonna corrupt ourselves. And that's what happens over and over again.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, I think you're right. I don't. You guys cool if I rattle off? Like, it's not a long quote, but it's. I think it's like the ultimate nail in Richard Rohr's coffin. Like, if anybody hears, like, well, maybe he is a Christian, like, I don't think you can come to that after this. He writes contemplative prayer. Remaining silently and openly in God's presence rewires our brains to think non dually with compassion. So get rid of duality or dualistic thinking, kindness and a lack of attachment to the ego's preferences. In contemplative prayer, we move beyond language to experience God as mystery. We let go of our need to judge, defend, and evaluate, plugging into the mind of Christ, which welcomes paradox and knows its true identity in God. During contemplation, we come to know that there is no separation between sacred and secular. All is one with divine reality. It's just universalism. Like, it's just, yeah, everybody's in God. You don't need Christ. You don't. Like. It's not Christianity.

[Matt]

And so, like, running into this issue with all these. These people again, what. I'll say Jacob from cult of. Cult of conspiracy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, not Jacob. The other dude.

[Matt]

Jonathan.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right?

[Matt]

Timothy Albarino. It's like we're being asked. Asked to not differentiate, you know, stop it. I say that we're being. We're being asked to just, like, kind of take it at face value in a way. Like, we just. That comment that we received from the dude, he's like. He's like, why are you looking so far into this?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

A lot of it is like, why are you labeling things demonic? Like, it's a. And they'll. They'll call it like an infantile, reductive view of the universe. And it's like. Well, ultimately, because I do believe that if you're not with Jesus Christ and you're against Jesus Christ, and the way that I see it is if you're against Jesus Christ, that makes you demonic. And. And my functioning definition of it is against the kingdom of God.

[Matt]

What is he laughing at?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I have no idea what he's laughing at.

[Matt]

He's just laughing. I don't know.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

He must be reading the chat. Against the kingdom of God or against humanity.

[Matt]

The constant call. And the. What is he laughing about?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I have no idea.

[Matt]

The constant call is to ask us to. It's like, open up your mind. Because these possibilities, like, they're. Everything is possible.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And in. In a weird, contradictory sense, I'm like, no, no, my mind is closed because I am. He's dying, laughing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I don't know what's a matter, because

[Matt]

I am, like, I am focused on one thing, and this one thing that I'm focused on doesn't allow for these externalities, but they want you to pay attention to them so badly so that way they could wipe away the one thing that you're focused on.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It is really. It is really clever, too, because the. The argument that's used to open yourself up to these things is a leveraging of your own misunderstanding. Like, the idea is that you can't understand the complexities of this thing, so stop protecting yourself against it. In so many words, that's what's happening there, right? The universe is. Is complex beyond understanding. All these systems are complex beyond understanding. You look at a thing and you blanketly call it demonic. Sorry,

[Matt]

we have to go.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

With the.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I have no idea what's happening with him.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Nothing.

[Zach Kelly]

Would you like to let the class know what's so funny?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and tell the classes. I'm looking up all these things, Oscar. I don't understand what's.

[Matt]

Are you laughing at a Google search, sir?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But that's. That is, you know, it's a slippery slope because as soon as you tell me, well, you don't understand these things, and so you lack the ability to categorize them as demonic. It's, like, kind of true. I don't understand these things. Right. There are. There's so much that I'm not gonna understand. The complexities of the universe, the complexities of these systems. If you want to defend numerology or. Or tarot cards or. Or channeling spirits or any of these things. Metatron, you name it. Yeah. Sure. I don't understand the, the, the, the, I don't know the complexities of these things to a degree where I can, I can define them.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's the same thing though with the grandma maxing. Isn't that what you call it?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I mean, that's what I call, yeah, grandma.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's the same thing, dude. Like the mini gram comes in. I don't know all the history of it. I just know it's bogus.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know it's gay.

[Zach Kelly]

I would give one like, caveat to the Grandma Maxine thing because I agree with it. But I do think there's like a little bit of a spin that I hadn't considered until, like, I don't know, a week ago. And I was thinking about this and it's like, well, it is safe for that grandma.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

She is safe to go, but she's disciples of men.

[Zach Kelly]

She's, she can't help anybody else if she doesn't know more. And so like, that's like, you need to know a little. You don't need to be all the way down the rabbit hole, you know, like that's, that's okay to not be, but to know enough to walk somebody else off the ledge is also incredibly beneficial. So, like it's both, you know?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, that's why it's a hypothetical word. It's like, like I always pose that character, that grandma character as being safe from the deception. But we're not called to play it safe. We're not called to, to hide. Right. We're called to make disciples of men. And sometimes in order to do that, you need to be, you know, wisest serpents and gentle as doves. You need to be able to guide people out of it.

[Matt]

We're walking in the deep waters for sure. But like at my, at my heart, at my core, I am grandma maxing. Meaning I'm like, there is an immovable anchor from where I, from where I believe. That's as far as I'm willing to go. If you don't have that grandma maxing anchor, you're gonna end up in Peru somewhere.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, Think about, think about Paul, right? Like Paul is, Paul's grounded in the faith. Paul gets it right. Paul knows Jesus. And at the same time, Paul goes to Mars Hill and he knows enough about their make believe religion, their gods, that he can start drawing connections to the unknown God. And God, no, that's the God I worship and he's the God that made all these other gods and he's the true God. And you know, and so, like, he. He knows enough to reorient them back. I had a great conversation. I might have said this last time.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I don't know.

[Zach Kelly]

I've said it a million times. But, like, I was at a bar all the time.

[Matt]

Go ahead.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Every single episode, I say the same shit.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. So basically what I was going to say is, like, all. Everything is just theater at the highest, regardless.

[Matt]

How dare you.

[Zach Kelly]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That was perfect.

[Zach Kelly]

I was at a bar, and I was playing a show with my band some years ago. This is like, right after my, like, come to Jesus moment. And I'm. I'm sitting there and I'm talking with this dude, and somehow Christianity got brought up. And he said, oh, you probably don't want to talk to me. And I said, well, why not? He said, well, I'm a Nordic deist. And he said, and I've done rituals and I've prayed to Odin and Thor and all these guys, and I have seen things happen. I said, I believe you.

[Grainger Narrator]

If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Granger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Zach Kelly]

And he was like, what? Because, like, that dude's been shut down by every Christian he's ever told that to. They probably just went, well, you're nuts. And it's like, no, I believe you. Talk to something, it's not God. Like, it's. It's a fallen son of God, and it's duping you, you know? And, like, it made for a good conversation, but it's like one foot in the thing helps you pull the other person out.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

You know, dude, I had that Ravens mo.

[Matt]

You better be anchored. You better be anchored, man. Because, yeah, like, this is my big thing with Alberta. I say this guy's name too much on the show, but, like, we've watched him for, like, 15, 20 years, be good, and then get pulled a little too deep in a certain direction. And now the guy's writing four words about, like, what's happening on Mars.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And we're like, dude, I was.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I was.

[Matt]

You've spun. You've spun out of control here. Like, find your anchor. Find your center point again.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I was talking to a guy just yesterday where, you know, I make this post about the demonic nature of aliens that the government hopes to disclose to us. And, you know, he reads it as like, oh, this is a Christian calling everything demonic. And then he goes something to the effect of, like, easy to say until you're face to face with these things and your body is in a state of paralysis and there's all these different things happening, and your perception is such and such. And he just, like, starts hitting me with these walls of text. And I'm reading it and I'm going like, whoa, this is fascinating crap. And then at the end of it, he's just like, I'm sure you're thinking that I'm, you know, bullshitting you or whatever, but once again, easy to think that when it's not happening to you. And I said, who says you're bullshitting, dog? Yeah, like, you just hit me with everything. And all the patterns just ticked off. I was able to hit all the check marks. This guy experienced this pattern and that pattern and that pattern. Like, this is a real experiencer here, in my opinion. And as soon as I said that, he was like, dude, everybody shuts me down. Everybody shuts me down. And I'm sorry that I came at you with all this and you. And. And just imagine that you were in a position where you thought it was going to be. And then we had this really crazy conversation, you know, where this guy's just share. I told him to write in, actually, because it was like, this guy remembers a lot to the extent where he's able to struggle during these events. He said he's punched the wall, like, the inner wall of the craft. He said he's trying to punch the entities, but it's never really worked out because he feels like he's moving in, you know, some sort of, like, pseudo paralysis state. But, yeah, man. No, it's. I think that's, you know, one of those things that I always think whenever I think of wisest serpents and gentle as doves. It's like, yeah, you have to understand a thing. Like the same thing that you said. I don't doubt that you're interacting with pagan gods of any variety. If you're. If you're into the Norse thing, which, by the way, I think is. It gets big because, you know, you got Thor and you got white people looking for an Identity, because they've kind of been under the heel of culture over the last, like, decade or something. You know, it's like white people don't have any. Culture is kind of the thing. And so that, I think that sends people looking for it. And. And Christianity has been reduced to a caricature in the west, so they. They go looking elsewhere. And then you have like the popular shows like Vikings, which. Which crushed. And so, yeah, all of a sudden you find your. Your identity in that. And it's about.

[Matt]

I think it's about, like getting Going all the way over there. But don't be persuaded by. And I've done this in like, the political realm, in a sense. Like Matt's friend I, that I was talking to at your house a while back, he's deeply in the, I guess the, like on the left side of the political realm.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, at my house.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But I was able to meet a lefty at my house.

[Matt]

Yeah, we did. All right. And I was able to talk with him.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Wait, who was it?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

We're going to talk about that. We're going to be rude.

[Matt]

But I was able to talk to him on his terms using the language that he's using, even though I vehemently disagree.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right.

[Matt]

With what he. What he thinks. I'm familiar with it. And I'm able to talk to him and we had a good conversation. I liked. I like this guy.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Okay, Now I remember.

[Matt]

You know what I'm saying?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

That was a great conversation, but I

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

had to change it.

[Matt]

But I had to. I had to understand all the tenets of his arguments, not disrespect him.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Right.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, I remember that.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You were saying a lot of compassionate people get sucked into the left because you're compassionate people.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's hijacking your. Your capacity for empathy and such.

[Zach Kelly]

And then.

[Matt]

And, but you also tell us he's like, don't get so involved with all this stuff. You're going to go crazy looking at him like you're 100. Right? We're going to go crazy looking at it.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But it's.

[Matt]

I got to know if.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

But I'm different.

[Matt]

I'm not built different. I've gone crazy. Look at me. Yeah, but if I'm. If I'm going to talk to those people, I have to know. I got to know their arguments in and out.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But it's almost like that world structure, that world system is run by Satan and they do these testing for the personalities and stuff. Somehow they get America. They narrowed it down to two. They're right. The Republican and the Democrat, somehow they did all this mini gram testing for this personality, this person. They said, all right, the. Well, the 1 through 5, they're on the red team. And then the 6, 7, 8, 9, they're on the blue team.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

And now we've got, like, this perfect. Like, somebody had to create that system.

[Matt]

Look at this. Number nine. So I'll pull this up and I'll tell you where they belong. Number nine, that's on the left. Strict perfectionist is on the right. Considerate helper. That's on the left.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Competitive achiever.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

The one that says, like, considerate helper. Like, what do you think that.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Really. That's a bottle.

[Matt]

Intensive creative. That's on the. On the left. Quiet specialist. That could go either way.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Loyal, Loyal skeptic on the right, for sure. Enthusiastic visionary on the left. Active controller on the right.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Are you saying. Yeah, this is.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, he's. He's nailing madness. He's nailing.

[Matt]

It's madness.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But he's looking at that and saying that has anything to do with.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

You mean to tell me that somebody's looking at this.

[Matt]

Nothing to do with Christ, but when I look at. When I look at somebody and they tell me, number one, you tell me your political spectrum, boom. I've just put you in this. In this chart here. And I've numbered. I have effectively narrowed down the numbers in which you can fall under. And then I let you talk and you'll tell me the rest. And it's simple as that. This stuff is true. And people fall under these archetypes. I think you. You have to have an open mind to this stuff, but also know all these things so you can break the. It's like, okay, but at what point

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

is it brainwashed that makes them become one of those.

[Matt]

It is 100%.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's a little bit of a. I think.

[Matt]

Here's what. Here's what I think. And this is a crazy thing, but it's like what you were talking about, Zach, where the grandma maxing is not sufficient. Grandma maxing is safe. But you've got to go further. You've got to learn all the rules. Like in music, you learn all the music. You learn exactly how to play and exactly why. And then, and only then can you break the rules and create something that is actually you. So you've got to learn this stuff. Like, you've got to understand what this is. And, you know, for a time, maybe you're dressing like Jack Sparrow and maybe you're acting like Dane Cook for A time that was me. But you realize, oh, no, this is an archetype. But I kind of had to go into that, and now I'm gonna break that because I've learned. I've learned of all these things and, like. But none of them were me. You know what I mean? People are gonna naturally fall into that stuff. Yeah, damn right. I'm cooking.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Stop it. Don't look at cooking, boy.

[Zach Kelly]

I think. I think there's kind of. Well, I think there's kind of another way too, because I do agree with all that, but, like, are you guys familiar with Walter Martin?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No.

[Zach Kelly]

Who did a book, wrote a book called Kingdom of the Cults. Kingdom of the Occult.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I think we have that book out on the shelf. Not in the library, but out.

[Zach Kelly]

Probably shop. Yeah, yeah, it's a big.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Writes about it. Yeah, it's like a bunch of cults, including even like, JW's and Mormons. All kinds of stuff.

[Zach Kelly]

Okay, guys, I'm so sorry. I am gonna have to hit refresh because all of your voices just jumped up like an octave and it's crazy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, no.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

We're back.

[Zach Kelly]

We're back. We're back, we're back. No, we're good.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

We're good.

[Zach Kelly]

If it's better now. Yeah, that was wild.

[Matt]

It's doing a thing where your audio, for some reason, every time is clicking, and I'm switching a setting behind the scenes. That makes it stop clicking for just a few minutes, and then it happens again. Sorry, people, there's really not much I can do here. But it's still. It's. It's a listenable conversation. But go. Go ahead.

[Zach Kelly]

We. We hit all the. All the technical difficulties every single nine. It'll be better next time, I promise. Walter Martin says people who work with money. I believe it's Walter Martin that says this. Like, people who work with money, they don't learn every type of counterfeit bill. They know money, the real money, so well that when they encounter a counterfeit, they know it immediately. Well, I think that's true, but also, like, I think, like, there's a difference between, like, running from the money altogether. And I feel like there's. That. That is what some people are doing. And so, like, I think when you come up with a specialized issue where it's like, okay, I don't know how to speak into this person's life. I need to learn more so I can. Like, I think you got to do that, too. But I also think you can become Alex Jones and just be. Become manic and Hate your life because you live in it. And it's like. Like you can do that.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I think a slightly better example of that is. I think top. No, Alex Jones has fun from time to time. David Ike looks like he's never having fun.

[Matt]

The English guy I've actually tried to book. Maybe you could help me. Stephen Mahmoud. He's the guy.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Mahmoud.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You gotta call him the right name first.

[Matt]

I can help. I texted him. He a guy that is. He's a Christian now, but he's a former Muslim. And his whole. His whole thing is that he. He'll teach you how to speak with Muslims about Christianity or maybe just about anything, because you have to really understand their theology and their culture in order to reach them. Otherwise, it's just fallen on death.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's the same thing as conspiracy theorists. You got to speak their language in order to evangelize politics with junkies, dude,

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

you're going to talk to a smoke method. You got to know what it's like to be a junkie.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, yeah, right. Like, but if. But I mean, like, that's why when you convert somebody to Christianity, that person becomes the best type of apologist to their own people because they know the culture already. Right? And so, like, there's. There's a big piece of that as well.

[Matt]

It's what we've been struggling with a bit here as well, Zach, because you've seen. Shut up, man. We've come out of. We've come out of the. The comedy realm and the being real, real nasty. Matt.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yes. I don't know if we're finished with it. We've come out of it a lot.

[Matt]

We came out of it. We get. Now we're back in it because we have to deal with some cat. And then. Then it puts into question. You're like. People like, oh, well, you're saying this and then you're talking about Jesus and you're like. The way you're. You're acting is. And I'm like. But, like, this is for the audience that I'm reaching. This is how they hear it. And you don't like it, but I'm not reaching.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

You.

[Zach Kelly]

You.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then it's like, well, if I water down my message or not my message, but if I'm like, if I'm not speaking how I actually think or feel, who am I talking to? These guys looking at over there, it's not. It's. Matt, you guys are the worst. I'm giving a heartfelt message here. And these guys are. These guys are laughing, Zach. You. Are you seeing this?

[Zach Kelly]

They're. They're. Okay. It's not breaking my heart. I'm all right. It's. I get laughed.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, I.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Get off the screen.

[Matt]

What are you looking at? I'm sorry. This is. What is that?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's a bug, man. Oh, my God.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

No, Zach, I'm sorry about that.

[Zach Kelly]

No, you're good. I wanted to hear what Top was saying.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Same. I don't know why it's gone.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I knew what he was saying.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Be a professional.

[Matt]

What was I saying?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

You were saying that people get upset when you try to evangelize to people that speak the same language as you. But unfortunately, the people that speak the same language as us, they're in comedy, and they're in. They're in conspiracy.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And, you know, they run around, talk the same language of them.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

They're like, I came from the 501C3. You should say, be blessed. Let's go to Chick Fil A.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And they disown us. And then they say, yeah, they say, we're not Christians.

[Matt]

The thing is, I can talk to the 501c3 people and not. And effectively not. Not offend them, because I'm like, okay, I get it, and I respect that. Like, if you don't want to hear this stuff, that's cool if we're, like, in a personal setting. But you're coming to, like, my place, right? They're looking at the bugs again,

[Zach Kelly]

everybody.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Every time Matt laughs, it sends me. Can you stop laughing?

[Matt]

I'm so. Zach.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, my God. Next time you're gonna.

[Matt]

You can come to. Come to the studio and do this, because these guys are.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Just keep talking.

[Zach Kelly]

No, I hear you, though. You got to meet people where they're at, man. I mean, like. Because here's the deal. Like, there are people I'm never gonna reach. I think of my dad. Like, my dad was a believer, right? But he also had some pretty outlandish statements. He would say. And I'd be like, dude, what are you. What are you doing? You can't do that. And he'd be like, yes, I can't. I remember he used to. He. I'd have to cuss, man. He. He used a very derogatory term for aoc And I was like, hey, man, you don't need to do that. And he's like, no, but she is. And I was like, yeah, but you don't need to do that. He literally got me and my pastor. Our pastor to sit down together, and. And I'm just sitting there, and he's like, why are we meeting? And I was like, no, go. Go ahead, tell him, dad. Tell him the thing you said that you're defending right now. And then, you know, our pastor's like, yeah, you can't say that. He's like, okay, you're right.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, no, stop that.

[Matt]

Did he say spic wet back?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, he said it was.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. No, it was just a B word.

[Matt]

Oh, so what? Yeah, I'll. You tell. Defend your dad. I will.

[Zach Kelly]

Don't do this, Top. That's not why we're here.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

That's not why we're here.

[Matt]

Was she acting like a Don't sound ass. Of course she was. So then it's like.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Then.

[Matt]

Then say it.

[Zach Kelly]

No.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, it depends on who you're around here.

[Matt]

What's the difference between. All right, if you. If you see a woman and you look at her.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And you lust. Oh, no, you've already sinned. Right. If you. If you look at her in this way. I mean, the Bible says this. Right?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right.

[Matt]

Okay, so if I see it doesn't

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

mean continue down that path. Is that what you're saying?

[Matt]

No, but I'm saying if I see a.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

No, I think.

[Zach Kelly]

Okay, hear me out.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What's the matter?

[Zach Kelly]

I don't think it's so much that he said it. I think. I think it's not doubled down on it, I think. Is he? It's when you double down on the sin and go, no, this is fine. That's when we have to talk about. No, don't. We got to get back to the Enneagram. We got to get back.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

We're back to the Enneagram.

[Matt]

Well, okay.

[Zach Kelly]

I want to. I want to circle back to something Dave said, though. So you brought up how everybody's trying to say, like, you just don't need to look into these things. You just don't understand them. Whatever. When we really think about the whole, like, non dualistic contemplative thinking, that's really what they're trying to get you to fall into, is it not? Like.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Like, in what sense?

[Zach Kelly]

Well, like the whole idea of, like, none of this matters. Like, it's just be nice. Just everybody get along. Just. It doesn't matter what they're doing. I mean, it's like the progressive ideology. It's the whole, like, anything goes. And like, really, that is getting back to that whole Kabbalistic idea of like, they want you to feel that way. They want you to accept this idea of everything is permissible, all things are okay.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And it's like that's interesting.

[Zach Kelly]

You see what I'm saying? Yeah, well, yeah. Right. And I mean, there's Satanic ties here as well. But if we. I don't know, man. Like, I mean, essentially that's. That's the gist of like who these people are, who the books are, all the stuff that's come out, like all the things the Christian circles are reading into with this. But what this all kind of prompted me to do was I started then going, where else does this connect? Because, like, it's got the nine. Like I just. I. The reason I even stumbled on that was you guys are always mentioning how Andrew Puharic seems to be at the center of like half these conspiracies. So I was like, I'm. I'm curious how this dude intersects. Well, it turns out he does. Like, it's the Esalen Institute thing. Right. So another big one is Michael Aquino. Michael Aquino seems to have his hand in everything, right? Yeah. Eyebrows and the hairline and the crazy. And so like, I Google, like, does Michael Aquino have any ties to the Enneagram? And I stumble across this concept called Infernal Geometry.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Infernal Geometry.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah. So it turns out that there's this thing called the Ceremony of the Nine Angles.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

And it's like the old angles that

[Matt]

close that we were.

[Zach Kelly]

So it's not that they are connected, but. But this is before that they adopt that 09A adopts that ceremony. The nine angles is actually a practice in the Satanic Church and they use it in their magic rituals. Now I think you guys have done a little bit of deep dive stuff on Aquino. Like that he broke away from the Church of Satan because it basically wasn't hardcore enough to. For him, they weren't actually worshiping Satan. So he's like, well, let's go over here and we'll actually worship Satan.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. And it's funny that he ends up in military intelligence. He's like, now this is. This is the place. Yeah, the.

[Zach Kelly]

The whole psyop to mind war thing. But he makes this ceremony of nine Angles for laveyan Satanism. He's the one that makes it. And there's a book that he is. He writes like a foreword for it or he's like a co author. I don't remember the deals, like what, what he actually had to do with the book. But he was part of the making of this book. And they literally admit that this whole concept of the Ceremony of the Nine Angles is just like the Enneagram. The whole idea is it can be Used for practically anything, but it's this meditative thing that you can do magic through. You can come to know yourself, you can come to know the secrets of the, the universe. Funny enough, it's literally the same thing that H.P. lovecraft writes into his stories. It's how they summon the deities, it's how they summon Cthulhu and Yog Zagoth or whatever, all these dark gods.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

The nine globes of Yog Sothoth, probably. I think that's exactly what it is. And, and it's interesting because that concept actually is present within the musical industry, I believe. It's nine globes. The nine globes of y. Let me, let me look that up real quick. Because even though it's Lovecraftian, it appears in the language appears in like the, the, the entities that Rihanna, Jay Z and, and Eminem mess with. Like Rain Man. Rain man is one of the globes of Yog Sothoth, which is very strange because most people look at, you know, Lovecraft is just a fictional. Yep, nine globes.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Son of a bitch.

[Zach Kelly]

I mean, there seems to be reason to believe that Lovecraft actually kind of knew what he was talking about.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, right.

[Zach Kelly]

Like maybe like, oh man, who wrote 1984? Orwell. Like, yeah, like Orwell seemed to be kind of an inside man. You know, you see different writers that seem to have. Be tipping a hat to like elite philosophy. Maybe that's what's going on here on an occult level. So you got that tie. You've then got 09A like you mentioned, which is essentially Neo Nazi Satanism. And they believe in their dark gods and all this business. And so they use the Enneagram as well. The, the nine angle rituals. I'm listening to. I think it was your guys show with Tim Constantine, the last one you did, and he brought up the seven and eight pointed stars because he was talking about Lilith and then he was talking about Ashtaroth, all these like, you know, Asherah, all these like, names, but it's really just the divine feminine thing. Right. And so I was like, you know what, I wonder what a nine pointed star means. And so I google it and I'm like, what God does this, you know, point to? What does this practice mean? Everything. Everything points back to the Baha' I faith.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

The what?

[Zach Kelly]

Baha'. I. Type in. Type in. Yeah. Baha' I blast. That'd be a great shirt by the way. You've got. Yeah, if you, if you look at this star, dude, all they did is they took the Enneagram and they completed the circuit.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

The Enneagram is missing the bottom. This is just a completed star. It's the same figure. So I'm like, okay, well, what's the Baha' I faith belief? The Baha' I faith is. It comes about in, like, the late 1800s, mid-1800s, 1852. You got this guy named Baja Uala. Okay. And he is part of this religion called the Babis. And there's this guy named the Bab, and he's executed. And when he's executed, they take all these other people in this movement, this Bahuala guy, and they put him in this place in Tehran called the Black Pit. And he's in. He's persecuted. He's imprisoned there. And during that time, he encounters a figure that he calls the Maiden of Heaven, or the divine Maiden. And he believes that she's the Holy Spirit. And she comes and she tells him that he is her prophet that she's going to send out. Tells him that all religions come from the same God, that all religions are true. They all point to one truth, that humanity must be unified under Baha'. I. And they promote this universalist message. Message. It's just back to the same Kabbalah bs. It's the same thing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Do you happen to be aware of any, like, prophetic warnings? Humanity has to unite under this or there's a thing coming.

[Zach Kelly]

I don't. I didn't catch anything like that. It seems to be more. Well, here's the other kicker, though. You remember how we said, like, Kabbalah wants everybody to kind of accept Kabbalah? Baha' I wants everybody to accept Baha'.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I. Huh.

[Zach Kelly]

And so it's just rebranded. It's the same divine, feminine garbage.

[Matt]

Yeah. They're saying that they believe that all the messengers from the prophets throughout the religions are all messengers from God.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yep.

[Matt]

Different manifestations. And it's to form a one religion.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And this is what this is likely the form that, like, this Antichrist figure will come, because it'll be like something like this.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Like, oh, yeah, yeah. Jesus was real. So you guys are like, it's okay. Christians, right? It's okay. Catholics. Like, Jesus was real, but, like, you just misunderstand. But that's okay. It's not. You know.

[Matt]

How do you not call people like this?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right. That's true.

[Zach Kelly]

You know.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay. Like, if I. Feminine kind of character descends from the sky and then goes like, Jesus wasn't real, can I call

[Matt]

her a. I don't know. I struggle. I struggle with it.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Huh. That is interesting, though, because it sounds demand it sounds exactly like so many other things.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, that's just remind me of the Chris Bledsoe thing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Sorry, that's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah, Chris Bledsoe. And we were talking about in the last episode because we were listing all the New age thought leaders who looked at this time and, and said that there was going to be. Basically, I'm paraphrasing. We looked at four and four particular was like Rudolph Steiner, Alice Bailey, Aleister Crowley, and a. And a fourth one. I forgot who the heck it was. But they all print. Those are just kind of like the big figureheads. They all predicted that this time there was gonna be a rebranding.

[Matt]

Oh, a manly P Hole.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Manly P. Hall. That there was going to be a rebranding of these spiritual entities. Now, Rudolph Steiner at least had the. The good sense to determine that these, these, these entities were demonic and that they were going to be rebranded as, like, cosmic teachers or some crap like that. But they were all looking at this and, and saying that. And the reason that that connected to the Bledsos is because the lady wants Chris Bledsoe to go out and. And convince people that this is not demonic. Which is fascinating. That's a fascinating angle to be taking. In fact, I actually have to. If I wasn't blocked, I would remind Timothy Alvarino that even though he. He said that the divine feminine is bull when we brought it up on this show.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Blocked you.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

He unblocked me. Then he blocked me again. That his narrative is actually perfectly in line with the lady or Hathor or Ishtar. But, you know, I'm sure.

[Zach Kelly]

And Epstein's correspondence with Lawrence Krauss.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, you know, that's not. And then when I, when I bring that to his attention, he just goes, they're trying to connect me to the Epstein files. Like, no, I know this is a complicated concept for you to try to wrap your midwit brain around. I'm just saying that the narrative you're espousing comes from somebody who maybe that, you know, that person should give you pause. You should look at that and be like, wait, why is Epstein doing the same thing?

[Matt]

He's giving me pause, but he's also giving me dollars.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, exactly. Or somebody. But yeah, it's. It's fascinating. It's fascinating because that, that despite the fact that he thought it was a insignificant thing and he wanted to defend Jake Barber, I do think this, this divine feminine aspect is going to be huge going forward.

[Zach Kelly]

It's like. I mean, I think you guys have mentioned this. But it's Katy Perry stepping off of the rocket. I mean, like, it's. It's all. They're all entranced in this divine feminine chunk. And isn't there some kind of tie with that in, like, the Age of Aquarius as well or something?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, so I believe that the. Well, actually, no. No, I'm conflating that with Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard. That.

[Zach Kelly]

That might be.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, it was Babylon, but it wasn't. It wasn't just like, you know, this entity was supposed to herald in this time of. Of the divine feminine, and it was supposed to be a. A time of, you know, liberation for women and all these different things, culturally speaking. If you look at. Back at that, it seems that there were some fruits to their labor, although I would argue that they were rotten.

[Zach Kelly]

Have you guys read into. Have you ever read Michael Aquino's conversation he has with Satan?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No. That's a fascinating thing.

[Zach Kelly]

It's the same. It's the same as all this stuff we're talking about.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Is Satan take on a feminine.

[Zach Kelly]

No, he's set. He's the Egyptian God, Set. Right. Which is funny because that's back to the Ennead again, but it's called the Way of Coming Forth by Night. Michael Aquino writes this book. He writes about his conversation he has with Satan. And in it, Satan essentially tells him, I'm tired of you calling me Satan because I'm not an advocate. And that's what Satan means. I'm your friend, and I'm the only true God. My name's Set. And, you know, before you, I sent. I appeared to Aleister Crowley as Hathor, not Hathor, but there's like, it's something

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

similar to Hathor Awas Lamb. And there was another entity that appeared to Crowley. I forgot what the hell it was,

[Zach Kelly]

but he basically says Crowley drops the ball because of his appetite for sex and money and power and whatever. And then lavey picks it up and he says, lavey, you know, was my beloved, you know, prophet or whatever, but, you know, he has, you know, run his course. So now it's you. And basically, I want to help humanity ascend. And when you tie that to the fact that you've got Michael Aquino writing Mind War about controlling your thoughts via propaganda at every level of media, it's pretty freaking scary. Like, it makes sense why people buy onto this stuff when they're inundated with it constantly.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

See, and that's that thing right there where you said, like, he wants humanity to ascend. So people get upset with me. Because they're like, why do you think aliens are inherently demonic? It's like, right now, it's. It's happening in tandem with what the Epstein files. And what was Epstein doing? He was sacrificing and. And, you know, worshiping these entities. It's like this.

[Zach Kelly]

Us.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And. And what message do the aliens have? They want us to ascend. It's the same.

[Matt]

The good aliens.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

The good aliens want us to ascend. So I suspect that the aliens that are going to be disclosed are the same that these guys are sacrificing to. They're not aliens. You know, and that's the thing that everybody gets hung up on. They're. They're fighting with me in the comments section, like, well, the universe is incredibly vast. So, you know, aliens, therefore, could be a multitude of things. Good ones, bad ones, neutral ones. And I'm like, number one, you're dealing with a word that. I want to throw it out. Aliens is. Is a terrible word because in its fundamental definition, it just means foreign. But that is not what we're talking about when we say aliens. You know, if thing is alien to me, it's foreign to me. This is not foreign to me. This is a thing with a. Skinny limbs, big head, giant eyeballs, little mouth. Like, that's what an alien is.

[Zach Kelly]

Let's take Albarino's kind of perspective here and just put it up against scripture. Okay. He's immediately assuming that some of these might be nice, Right. And he's basically saying, like, you should just stop assuming that they're all bad. Scripture literally tells us to assume all spirits that come to us are bad until proven otherwise. We're like, if an angel comes to you and it's preaching a message separately from God's word, then it's not from God. And so the work around is.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Zack, the workaround is these aren't spiritual beings. These are physical beings, you know, divine, spiritual, all that other crap.

[Matt]

That's exactly why we had to get stuck on that spiritual realm. Because if you're there, that's like the preface to the entire argument.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yep.

[Matt]

So if you can reclassify and redefine stuff, then everybody's kind of confused, and then the conversation can continue.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, well, he kind of messed up, though, because he sort of didn't. He sort of outright denied a spiritual realm. And so then it's like, well, what do you even do with passages like that now? Like, I. I don't know. It's.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, it was a great question. Right. If you're. If you are getting hung up on the definition of a spiritual realm. And the Bible tells us to test all spirits. If I can't even apparently engage in that until I lay out these definitions, how the hell am I going to test the spirits?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I think that's what we talked about, like, a little bit after that was like, it's more about defining a spirit because he's talking about how they have physical properties. Like, okay, yes, stuff in the spirit realm has physical properties.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, so we just got to get

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

into this thing of defining spirit, right? Like Jesus walks through a wall, but then he can have his feet on the floor and have his hand on food and eat food, right? So there's physicality and there's the ability, the ability to like, like, defy physicality as well. That was a glorified body, to be fair, and when Jesus did it. But, like, there's other stories like this about stuff from the spirit realm having physicality. Looks like it's still another realm. Yeah, I think. I think that's why the unseen realm is an easier phrase. But, like, if. If spirits live there, God definitely lives there. God definitely has these interactions with other spirits, even like when he wants to send Ahab off to war. And then he said he has this council of spirits and says, how are we going to trick him? And then a spirit comes before him and says, I'll go be in his ear, in the ear of his prophets, a lying spirit. And God says, okay, go ahead and do that. Well, all those spirits were ga, including God, were all there talking somewhere. I have no problem calling that the spirit realm. What are we talking about?

[Zach Kelly]

Well, he also, I mean, it essentially denies all of Heiser's work. Right?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, he kind of flat out did that.

[Zach Kelly]

Did he? Because, like, my issue is like, well, the word God literally means spirit being. Otherwise, when you read, like, when the witch of Endor, like when Saul goes to the witch of Endor and wants her to resurrect the spirit of Samuel, she does, and it works. And when he's coming up out of the ground, she says, I see a God coming up out of the ground. Well, why did she just make a differentiator between human Samuel and what this is now being considered a God because he's in the spirit. He's a spirit being. And she is calling it a God, like little G, obviously. But I'm saying, like, that verse doesn't even make sense if. If everything is physical like that. Yeah, there. There would be no differential language there, you know, point.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, what he would have said was that was symbolic or.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

No, I think he was just saying calling it the astral realm instead of the spirit.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

He wasn't. He wasn't even doing that. But, you know, but once again, though, that goes back to that. Zach referenced it a moment ago, that conversation between Epstein and Lawrence Krauss, where Lawrence is made to formulate a debate that Epstein can use. Epstein promises not to attribute his name to the article, but he needs an article written that debunks the connection between aliens, ghosts, which ghosts, in my opinion, are demonic entities masquerading as dead loved ones and out of body experiences. Now, out of body experiences includes near death experience, includes, includes astral projection, but it includes the spiritual realm as, as well. And so my, my suspicion here is that Albarino is running a narrative that he is not, like I said, overconfident midwit. He is not aware of the origins of this narrative, but he should be, you know, he should have some pause here. He should be like, wait a second. That's fascinating. Why would Epstein be concerned with doing that? That's a lot of, like, where my research. Because I think that's a lot of how this cognitive infiltration works. It's not like you're always planting an individual to steer a narrative. You are planting a narrative. And that narrative might parallel the truth in many, many ways, but it might have some fundamental lies, which is what we talk about in the show all the time. And then to find out that the lady is telling Chris Bledsoe, it's imperative that you go forth and spread the word that this is not demonic is like layers upon layers upon layers of alarms. And then you look at these New Age practitioners and they're all saying there's a rebranding coming in the year 2025. And 26 of these entities that were formerly known as deep demons, or as Manly P. Hall puts it, gods, angels, and, and, and teachers. And they will be rebranded as like, cosmic entities. That's what he says. Cosmic entities, meaning from the cosmos. Entities from the cosmos. What was previously identified as angels, which he never added the caveat. Fallen gods in a lowercase g. And. And teachers, which they taught Mystery School teachings and, and, you know, agriculture, metallurgy, you name it. Manly P. Hall was kind of right over the target. He just wasn't grounded in Christ. So it's like all these things are pointing towards this. And this overconfident midwit has no abilities of discernment whatsoever to detach from the narrative that is in his, you know, book that's Making him a lot of money and go, wait a second. Did I put out something that's fundamentally incorrect and rooted in something that I don't understand?

[Matt]

Well, it's like, I think. I think we should be. Maybe we should adjust our view of Albarino.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I'll slap him in the mouth.

[Matt]

Yeah. After we do that.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Okay.

[Matt]

Of somebody that we don't particularly like because of, like, the. His personality and his face and his appearance, but as somebody that you could very well become because it's like, like. Oh, yeah, we were talking about. In the. In the very beginning of the show, we're talking about the idea of grandma maxing. And it's not. That's not quite. Quite correct either, but it's the safer option. And he's just a great example of when you just go too far.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yep.

[Matt]

Like, the guy has discovered it and then he's gone to a place where it's like sci fi fantasy nonsense, and it becomes almost like a circle jerk where you have to, like, collect the information you want to see to confirm your. Your information, and then it. Look at how far it's spiraled. Like you went from doing doctor documentaries with Steve Quayle.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

To writing the forward to a book about space things and technology going on on Mars.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

His outward visage. His outward visage betrays his love for fictional films.

[Matt]

Betrays.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Or is it indirectly betrayed rather by his outward visage, that which clearly defines his love for fictional films.

[Matt]

I don't know. I just never want to get there. Where it's like. Like you can. Can keep on searching. Like you can get to Christ and then keep going.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah. You can walk right past it.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, then you're at Christ plus right then. Then it's like you're adding on to Jesus and that's where it all falls apart. Like, if you're adding on to Jesus, then his work wasn't sufficient.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right.

[Zach Kelly]

And so it's like there's no room for that. But, like, to the point you guys are making, to me, like, you were saying how there's a narrative being pushed. And the way I see it is there's like a million narratives being pushed. It feels like Satan's Hail Mary, like, for lack of a better term. But it's like when you look at the, like, Madame Blavatsky of the world with, like, the Theosophical Society. Have you ever seen the emblem for the Theosophical Society?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Maybe. Let's pull it up.

[Zach Kelly]

It's kind of crazy, man. Like, because these occultists, like, these Crowleys and These Blavatsky and these. It's like they see the interconnection points. Like, you look at this symbol, and you've got, like, this Star of David, Star of Metatron thing at the center, you've got an ankh. In the middle of that, you've got a swastika. Above that, you've got an Ouroboros. You've got the Ohm symbol with the. With the Hindus, you've got an Ouroboros, which ties back to Kabbalah. And so, like, she's looking at this and going, look, it's all one truth. The Baha' is are going, look, it's all one truth. Crowley goes, we call them, you know, gods now. We'll call them something eventually different later. You did the manly See hall or Manly P. Hall, C. Hall, P. Hall, saying the same thing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Like, that's what they believe, though, by the way, Zach. They all believe that it's going to be a falling away and then a conglomeration of all the religions under one banner. So it makes sense that you would have, as a, you know, a symbol that represents your belief system, this amalgamation of a symbol from each belief system, you know, because that's what they think. They're all going to be under one umbrella, and it's going to be specifically under the umbrella of these entities.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's a reference to a Rihanna zone.

[Zach Kelly]

But. But that's what's so crazy about this, because, like, when you just get back to, like, the simple message of Scripture, you've got the way of Christ, and then you've got the way of the world. And really, what we're talking about here is the way of the world unifying under a banner. They've been operating. They've all been saying the same things. They've just been doing it under different names. So it would make sense. The next move is let's unify. And I think that's what's probably happening in Revelation. But, yeah, I mean, it's just like the Bible calls all this out. You know, it's so simple. It's so easy to see once you've seen, like, Scripture just says, yeah, there's two ways. There's only two ways. There's the way of Christ, and then there's everything else. So, in short, I think the Enneagram drags you from the church to all of this if you let it. And that's. That's the danger I want to warn people away from with this thing.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, I mean, it makes sense that something like this would infiltrate the church. That's where people, you know, ultimately when, when, when people bash the church, it would have been a. It's a good target, right? I mean you have a place that proclaims to be the house of the Lord. You have real believers gathering together to, you know, interact with the Word and to, to engage in fellowship. Of course that would be a place that would be endlessly infiltrated, endlessly attacked.

[Matt]

I don't think there has to be like this naivety in the church almost of like you have people coming there to figure out life. Like the, the church is, is a place for sick people, spiritually sick, so they don't know. That's where they go to learn. So it is the perfect place for subversion or for distraction or that slight 1 degree angle angle change which I think. I don't even know if this is a slight change that. The Enneagram that seems like a entire departure.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And it's, it's being, it's being instituted in the like the governmental and like the working aspect of churches.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

But it's just, but it just shows. It just, it's just a symptom of something deeper. It just exposes the sickness in the

[Matt]

church that it can be that it can get in there.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

It's like the people always thought like that and didn't know the word of God and didn't know God himself enough to not get duped by that. It's just once that comes along, it exposes that and you realize like, wow, dude, like a majority of the church is just into this shenanigans that has nothing to do with Christ. But that was always there. It's just a thing like the minigram just exposes it.

[Zach Kelly]

I don't know if it was on this show or another, but talking about the golden calves recently and like the reason the people wanted the golden calf is because like God was up there on top of the mountain. And that's scary. It's scary to go to God. It's scary to get close to God. We're down here and we're not hearing from him and we're not seeing enough happening right now. And when we don't see results from God, we turn to other things to give us those results. And that's why they made the calves. And so it, it's like, is this not just a golden calf?

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, well. And I don't know exactly what it looked like when God came down in that event, but if you look at Ezekiel's event in there are like living creatures that do have the face of a calf. Like is it possible that God approached and they saw a calf? Like when God approached at that time and that and was like oh, something of God. There was an element of that.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, meaning like a cherubim has like the face of an oxen or something.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

And they were like, this isn't like this other thing. It's. It's one of the things trying to

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

bail out the Jews.

[Matt]

No, I think the, I think these Jews knew. They, they knew when they were familiar with the angels. And one of the angels probably would depict itself as having a, the head of a calf. Like, like the seraphim. They'll have the four different faces that they could show.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

I'm just saying that like, like sometimes like the blessings of God or the things of God or like good things, they're still not God, but people are like, oh yeah, this is okay because it's good, great, but it's not God.

[Matt]

This goes back to that, that discussion about like, well, are aliens demons? They're angels. They're angels. Yeah. Are some of them bad? Yeah. And I think they're going to look the same as some good angels because they are probably of the same classification. How do you determine? We can test them. There's like a legalistic realm in which we can test them.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right.

[Matt]

And it seems like they have to be truthful to some capacity. I don't, I don't know the exact legal spiritual law, but it seems like, yeah, when you ask them certain questions, they must answer because there are rules in the spiritual realm. The same way that that's how they get your consent. There has to be some form of truth telling here. So. But I do think those people knew. They directed Aaron to do. To build this exact thing. And I think he knew as well because I knew he was in deep shit. When Moses came down, he started blaming everybody else. They know what they were doing. It wasn't. Which we thought.

[Zach Kelly]

Isn't that just Adam though? Like, it's the woman you gave me. She did it. You know that's what we were talking about, right? Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

You know he says, oh yeah, I meant this gold in there and the fire and a calf came out.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

So sad. Cuz it's the gold that God gave them through the Egyptians, man. It was like this blessing of God that he was like, hey, I'm going to provide for you. Like the same way Jesus got gold, frankincense and myrrh at his birth and then he had to go into Egypt to survive. Like, it was good that they got gold so Joseph and Mary could survive in Egypt. They had some money. Now, it was the opposite. Like, he was calling his child out of Egypt, gave them the money of the Egyptians, and they turn around and make an idol out of it was probably.

[Matt]

It was probably way more potent than gold they would have had otherwise.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, we should not think that. We're not doing that. We should. We should read those stories and we shouldn't go, oh, the Jews. We should. We should read those and go, God, where am I doing that? Like, what are the things that, like, you're giving me? And I'm, like, using it for something against you. Like, I should be mindful of that.

[Matt]

True.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, it goes to show, though, how deceived and how uneducated people are on the word of God when they can run into something like the Enneagram, where, you know, talking about the face of God. Right. Like, talking about, oh, they saw something that sort of resembled God maybe, and that's what led them astray. You've got Richard Rohrer on quote, saying the whole Enneagram is called the face of God. If you could look at it, reality from nine pairs of eyes and honor all of them, you would look at reality through the eyes of God. He says that somebody reads that and goes, yeah, this is. This is a Christian book, you know, and it's like, so we're. We. There's just a level of uneducation happening, too. Right. Like, that cannot jive with Christianity.

[Matt]

And at the same time, I do believe that what he's saying is probably true. Like, what? These nine entities that were telling him this stuff, where he's getting this download from, they're probably being sort of accurate. Like they're looking at this world through their eyes. However, they. Because it. It seems like they are one. But then there were also nine. Like, as well.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Was when. When he's channeling this entity, it comes as one, but then it distinguishes itself as nine eventually, as they continue to channel this. So it's like it does have this sort of. I don't. I don't know how to explain it.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, it's interesting because what was the name of that school before the.

[Zach Kelly]

Oh, the. Well, the Esalen Institute.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Esalen Institute. Yeah. They. There was one guy that came out of there in particular who was responsible for something called Gestalt psychology. And Gestalt psychology. Gestalt means an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts. So. Meaning these Parts come together to make something else. So these nine.

[Zach Kelly]

It's Hydra. It's Hail Hydra.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

But it's also. It's. It's an inversion of the Trinity. Right? So, like, if you are these entities and you see like, oh, damn, there's three in one right there. Like, they could probably. Maybe they have these similar properties. Well, obviously it's not the same thing, but when people deny the Trinity or like. Or don't understand it, I was like, yeah, we're not going to understand this. These guys are doing some other weird stuff because there clearly are nine of them. But then they're telling you that they're seeing the world when they. When they all come together through one perspective.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So there is something happening.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

And I think they're like a multitude of things. Like, they're not just. So it's like there's nine personality types, right? But there's also these nine entities. But there's also these nine realms. Right. If you go to, like, all these different. What's the. What's the belief system? Norse mythology has nine different realms. So it's like there's something about this. These entities and their ability to present as a multitude of things. Not just an individual thing, but also like a conceptual thing and also to what's.

[Matt]

So we're collectivized into one. Yeah, and that's the big one, the collectivization. Like, we see the devil in that through politics, modern politics, or even modern thinking. It's interesting.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's interesting. I think it's one of those things that, you know, we just can't. If you existed within a. A higher realm. Right. If there's a third dimension, and that's what we exist in. 4th dimension being time, 5th, 6, etc. You know, these. These entities. Entities supposedly exist in these higher dimensions. It's a concept that we don't have.

[Matt]

Again, not to. Not to, like, glam them up and. And make them more than.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

No, they're still gay.

[Matt]

They're super gay. But it's just like, okay, this is a characteristic of what they do, and we don't understand it, and that's fine.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Zach Kelly]

Well, there is one. There's one school of thought that would kind of confuse that a little bit, and that would be like, Gary Wayne's take where he kind of sees it as, like, warring mob bosses. And I'm gonna be honest, that view makes a lot of sense to me, too, because it's like, if I'm the bad guy, I have no morals. So why. Why would I Hold true to the greater thing. You know what I'm saying? Like the greater collective, the Beast.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

And then the Beast ultimately turns on her and eats her. Like, the demons can't get along either.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

With each other. They don't just hate us.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

The only reason he might do that is because it's probably not all the time, but if you can do that for a time, you become very powerful as a unit. So, like, just in the pursuit of power, you might occasionally get together and high five in a group of nine.

[Zach Kelly]

It's like the five families in the Godfather.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Right, Right, exactly. Like, you separate until. Until a common enemy appears or something like that.

[Matt]

So I like the idea of this. This hydra just, you know, one head just biting the other one off as it's connected to a. Its own body and it's bleeding.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

It's funny because that's how it acts. Yeah. That's how it acts even in cartoons. And they're always taking bites of each other.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, listen, Zach, I. I want to bring it in for a landing here. Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on before we wrap it

[Matt]

up to you about Indiana at some point?

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Oh, my God.

[Zach Kelly]

But, yeah, I mean, I. I don't know how fleshed out of an episode that will be. It's going to be a lot of speculation, but I don't like, even. Even my. You know, the story that you guys gave me such a hard time for, that you don't remember? It has a lot to do with. With Indiana. Well, a little bit to do with Indiana, but I don't know, man. We can talk about it. I don't know how deep we could go, but it'd be fun.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Well, you're welcome back anytime. Just hit us up and we'll. We'll figure out something before we get out of here, though. Where can people find your work, Zach? Let's remind them.

[Zach Kelly]

Salty saintspodcast.com. you can reach me there. Salty Saints on Spotify.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Whatever.

[Zach Kelly]

It's a little anchor symbol. Once again, we're not the Mormons. Please. Also, if you are Mormon and you're listening to this and you think I'm the Mormon, stop sending me your emails. And. Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that's.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

What's the project that you're working on that people need to look forward to.

[Guest/Contributor Matt]

Berean.

[Zach Kelly]

The Berean Files, which was kind of a nod to the X Files, but now it's the Epstein stuff coming out, so it's like.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

I think it's a great name, though. It's a great concept, great name.

[Matt]

You should patent it before more Mormons take it.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Where is that gonna be coming out? Is that gonna be YouTube, Apple, podcasts, all that?

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, I mean, I think, to start. Well, I need to talk to you guys about that because I need some tips. But I'm thinking in the beginning, we're probably not gonna have enough of a push to have any kind of paywall or anything like that. So it's probably just gonna be out on YouTube live, and then it'll be on Spotify and all that after the fact that. So.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

All right, well, let us know. We'll help you out.

[Zach Kelly]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Matt]

Zach, nice to talk to you again. We'll talk.

[Zach Kelly]

Same.

[Matt]

I'll text.

[Zach Kelly]

Absolutely. I won't have a jank set up next time.

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

Figured it out, though.

[Matt]

Yeah, we figured it out. Well, step by step. Yeah, we're getting better. But until next time, guys, don't forget to obey, submit and comply. We'll see you later.

[Zach Kelly]

Again,

[Matt]

the end is written in the

[David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster)]

book in the pages they for. When the last trumpet sound and the heaven.