← Our Ancestors Were Messy
Our Ancestors Were Messy
Household Exclusive: Researching Our Ancestors
00:21:46
Host Nichole Hill responds to listeners' comments and shares an interview with the show's Research Producer Chioke I'Anson about the research behind the histories shared on the show. Their conversation was originally taped for the donor community known as The Household.
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, this is Nicole Hill, host and creator of Our Ancestors Were Messy. Thank you for listening. There are a lot more of you here since the last episode, so I wanted to come on, give you a little update and a little treat. My team and I are hard at work on season two. We continue to be hard at work. We just spent a few months researching, a few months writing, a few months producing, and then just like that, we have a new season. So that will be ready for you in the fall. Thank you for your patience and for your encouragement and for all the love I feel. I want to make y' all the best season I can. I want to do right by our ancestors. I've got the best team in the world, so I know we're going to do it. See you this fall. Oh, well, you know what? But maybe, actually, there might be a little surprise here waiting for you on the 4th of July, just in time for America's semiquincentennial. So stay tuned for that. But until then, let me quickly address just three things, and then I'll play the little treatment one. North Carolina. I hear you. I've never seen anything like it. So many emails and DMs and messages being like, what are you doing? Why are you not down here? Get down here right now. Do a show for us. Hang out. I want to let you know that. I guess that works, because I'm going to come down to North Carolina. I don't have a date yet. I'm just putting y' all on notice. So, you know, after season two is out, I'll find some time and I'll put on a show for you. Thank you for inviting me, all of you, all the time. I really appreciate it. Number two. Okay. In the Emperor Jones episode, and so kind of subsequently in the Paul Robeson episode, we made some casting decisions, and they were not to cast Aldous Hodge. And, well, I don't want to say it like that. I mean, we didn't consciously be like, not him. It just sort of wasn't him. And the women of the Internet have spoken, and they don't agree. I want you to know that I hear you. I'm not gonna say something like, I'm not in charge of the casting decisions. That's up to the guest. Why am I getting these emails? Why don't you DM them? I'm not gonna say that. I'm gonna say that I take full responsibility and that I hear you. And that if anybody has a line to Mr. Hodge, please let him know he's gonna. He's got a very vocal and enthusiastic fan base, the listeners of the show, and we'd love to have him on. All right, number three, research. Wow. The majority of these messages that I get in DMs, outside of just, like, love and encouragement, it's questions about the research process, which I love. Obviously, this is something I'm deeply committed to. So I wanted to play y' all a conversation I had with my research producer, Chioki Ayanson. It's available to our community of donors known lovingly as the Household. We put this out for them a few months ago. If you would like to join the Household and be able to access bonus content like this all the time, you can go to. Our ancestors were messy.supercast.com but I'm going to play it for y' all today. This is the treat. Before I do, let me just set it up really quickly. Something that animates my research process was this thought I had back in 2020, when there are all these calls to abolish the police. I was thinking, you know, if this works and the police become this relic of the past, then 200 years from now, people will probably look at what survived of our movies and our music and our films and books and TV and this, and they'll think, you know, the number one issue in the lives of all of black America, the thing we kind of devoted ourselves to every day, was the fight to end police brutality. And then I thought, based on where we are today, that probably in the future, they're going to fall in one of two camps. Either they're going to say, you know, every time our ancestors, every time our great, great, great, many times great grandma Nicole went to go get a mani pedi, she sat her whole family down and kissed them goodbye one by one, and said, I know that the police could end it at any moment, but I have to go get this mani pedi for us, you know, because we have a right to do what we want to do. We have a right to freedom. And I want future generations to have freedom, too. And as we all know, that's not really how going out works. Or they're gonna fall in this other camp where they'll be like, if I was alive in 2026 and a cop pulled me over, I would say, I'm not gonna play respectability politics and try to, you know, appease you and do what you want. I'm gonna do what I feel like doing, and I want to drive away. So I'm gonna. I would have driven off. I would have Driven off, I would have been my own person. And one. That is not how we define respectability politics today. And also, no, you wouldn't. Like, that's not how getting pulled over by a cop works. You know, it's really hard to explain the nuances of human interactions, compartmentalizations, the difference between, like, a horrific event that happened to a few people and the millions of people walking around every day and, like, why the millions care so much about the few that it feels like it's happening to the millions. That stuff's not going to make a history book. And so when I'm researching, I'm trying my best to do what I hope the future will do for us, which is to meet our ancestors where they are, not where I am. And I'm trying to put aside my judgments and expectations in 2026 Ness as best as I can and just understand them. And so I end up I just have to dig and dig and dig and dig and dig until I feel like I do, or I should actually say we dig because I put my research producer, Choki Ayinson, to work. So without further ado, here's our conversation. I hope you enjoy and I'll see you soon. Chioki, can you talk about your role on this project?
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B
I am the research producer for Our Ancestors Were Messy, which I believe you explained once. As I get the articles from behind the paywall. I mean, I like to think I have more input than that, but that's about what it is.
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A
That's like a headline of what you do. Can you talk about what you actually. What it looks like when I. Yeah, can you talk about from your side you're going about your day, and then all of a sudden you get a te. Take it from there.
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B
Yes, sure. So I'll get a request from you to look some stuff up. I will then look that stuff up. But usually in the context of the show, there arises a set of questions about whatever it is that you're researching. So on the one hand is, well, what is the story? Who were the people? What happened? But then also, we have to face the question of, well, what is the general historical context that animates or makes this tale make sense, that helps us understand why these people are doing things, and how do these things come together in such a way that you can then tell a compelling story? And so, generally speaking, I don't really have storytelling instincts, but I'm always fascinated by research and by the ways that you in particular are trying to understand something because you're kind of Like a. You're a non academic who's trying to understand what's like, dope or exciting or important about something. And so then the way that you struggle to understand is eminently more fun than the way that a professor person would struggle to understand.
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A
Oh, interesting.
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B
Yeah. So then, so when you raise questions to me, it gets me, like, thinking in a way that I wouldn't otherwise. Right. And so that's pretty dope. But then, so then it also, like, helps me look at this historical moment almost like through your eyes. And I think that that kind of merger of fascination, your story fascination and my general kind of, kind of academic, historical like fascination, I think those things come together and like, help you determine the best way to tell the story while being faithful to the historical moment in which the story shows up. Right, right. So, yeah, so this is the thing that only I in my head call the Ayodele Lachey methodology.
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A
That is true. That is what it's called. How do you determine that? Well, actually, I'm curious about, you know, what I was originally asking for was just like, oh, can you find articles? Or whatever? But then you started to send along analysis. What kind of went into your decision to add that? Why did you think that was important?
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B
Yeah, so I think that if you have bare historical moments, and I think that this is a mistake, that if you look at the various kind of YouTube people or other kind of independent researcher type people, they can tell the story of the thing that happened, but without the analysis, that is, without kind of sitting with the reflections from someone who has studied and been immersed in. In the time period or in that, you know, in that, in that context, you're bound to make these anachronistic mistakes in the storytelling. Right. Like, you're just going to kind of import the. The way that you see the world on that historical moment and then tell the story. And that will do a disservice to the story. And so it's actually vitally important that we have commentary and analysis from historians and other types of scholars to help us really get a sense of what is the thing that matters to the person in the moment. And that thing is, you know, depending on the moment in history, it's actually gonna be kind of hard to understand.
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A
Right.
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Especially when you talk about black history. Because, you know, we here living in what some scholars might call the post soul condition, we have a set of interpretations that we often will place on every black thing that happens in history, no matter what. And we kind of think that we know it because we are, in fact, united by this collective experience or whatever. But of course, day to day, moment to moment, that is not true. Like, there's a ton of weird, different, original, not thought about things that people are encountering in history. And so then we need to try and get as close as we can to what those concerns and considerations are so that we can, you know, tell the story in a way that is exciting for the audience, but that also even feels right to the historians.
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A
You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah. And that's like, we've had that. There's been one episode I can think of, like, off the top of my head where the guest's reaction to the story you had, like, a little bit of an issue with. They were drawing parallels to today that you were like, well, technically, actually, they're putting something on the past that is not like an accurate reflection of the past.
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B
Yeah. And I think that. I mean, it makes sense because very often when we read black history, I know that I do. I feel a certain kind of closeness with whatever the person is going through in a way where obviously, when I read other kinds of history, I read it more as a witness. And then, you know, if I read the dead white guys of my philosophy training, then I read it as, like, a fully excluded kind of person, like, trying to understand. Right. But I think that we should caution ourselves to read too much of ourselves into a text at first. I think it's good to kind of take a step back and just ask yourself, am I getting what they're trying to say? Like, allow the text to reach you a little bit? Because that might help or improve your understanding, or it might help you understand something new about your current context. Right.
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A
Yeah. And that was that. So that was gonna be my next question to you. When people are digging into history, the thing that makes it sticky is that it says something about today. But then the thing you risk is that you're misinterpreting or you're putting too much onto it. How do you think about that balance? What do you think is more important? Or is that, like, an impossible thing to say, One is more important than the other?
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B
Yeah. I mean, I don't think that it's about a thing being more important, but I do think that the better you understand history, the better you understand the present. And I think that if you have a default notion of what the present is like and you impose it upon history, then you're stopping yourself from learning valuable lessons that could help your present.
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A
Can you think of an example.
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I mean, so I don't know if any of the things that I'm thinking of are going to be, like, terribly, terribly helpful. You know, I sometimes think about the humanity of the person. Like one of the most amazing historical figures that I think were. Was like, that we encountered recently. That is that they've been. They were there the whole time. But, like, more presently we're like, oh, Bayard Rustin was kind of amazing.
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A
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
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And so it's like, you know, reading his stuff is like, damn, this is like, really, like, pretty dope. But then also, just on a person to person level, I remember thinking like, this guy was probably pretty annoying.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Like, this guy was, like, probably pretty intense. And I bet when he came around, all the homies were like, God, this God. You know what I'm saying?
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A
Here we go.
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B
Yeah. Like, I could see that happening or whatever. And it doesn't take away anything from how awesome he was, but it does call into question the way that we present historical figures. Right. And I think that what I like the most about your show is that it's history without the reverence. And I think that the thing that black people desperately need to better understand black history is to not be so goddamn, you know, reverent about it. They need to, like, stop talking about these people like they're the great gods from the heavens. And they needed to be like, these were humans who were struggling, who were weird, they had flaws. They were, in fact, just like us. And I think that if we can start there at that level, then there's a lot more that we can learn. And also, maybe the stuff that lies ahead for us can not be less daunting, but we can just realize that we're part of a continuum that, like, regular ass ladies and guys, like, we're struggling and that we regular ass ladies and guys and they thems are going to struggle as well. And that we're not like, you know, we're not set against the greatest people of all of history. We're set against grandma.
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A
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. What was a particularly fun or memorable research quest that you have gone on for the show?
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B
Oh, my God. I mean, I love every. I love. Okay, the only one I can think of is that time. Sorry, is that. Is that time that you encountered a scholar that kind of sucked? And then I read her a whole afternoon and hated the whole thing.
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A
That was nice.
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Yes. No, I mean, obviously I loved reading about Paul Robeson. I think that the, like, another thing that gets lost in our reading of history is that we read black history like it's black American history, and we don't do that great a job in America of reading the transnational kind of nature of the whole thing. And so, like, a lot of these historical figures, when you dig into them, you see the way that they interacted with the entire world and the world's history. And. And I think that that's one of those lessons that makes you say, oh, well, wait a minute. Why am I not tracking international news? Why do I not care about the struggles of these other countries or whatever? Right? Like, why have I become so insular? You know, I need to stop reading the Root. You know what I mean? Like, so it's that kind of thing.
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That's where you end up. Okay.
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That's where I personally end up.
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Okay, final question. Do you want to talk about communism and boarding houses? I know that that was really, really important to you. Listen, do you have any final words on it? Yeah,
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let's. Let's just do a communism bonus episode in the future.
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Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably gonna have to be done. It's gonna come up a lot.
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Yeah, I'm into it. I think I wanna do it. Let's do a black communism, like, you know, chit chat, Fireside Chat.
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Ooh, okay.
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Yeah, with Nicole and Chokes.
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A
No, I would never call you that.
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No, no, Some people call me that.
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A
I know. Well. Oh, no, I'm thinking of Ronald. He calls you Yolks. I wouldn't call you that either.
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Ronald calls me Yolks.
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A
Yeah, yeah, but people call you Chokes.
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Some people do.
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A
No. Thank you so much for your time, Chioke. This has been really great. Do you have any final words? Anything you want to share?
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B
I don't know. I think your show is super cool. I'm very happy to work on it. I wonder. What do I wonder? No, that's it. It's all good.
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A
Whoa, wait. No. What do you wonder? What were you gonna say?
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I just. I feel like there's so much potential for your show as a show, but also I think that it's a way to teach people black history after, I think, a kind of an extended interval of time where maybe we weren't teaching black history in the best way to a general audience. So I think that what I want to see is our ancestors were messy as, like, a high school history curriculum. You know what I mean? That also kind of shows people how to do research because I, you know, I can tell you here on my college campus, people have lost that ability and they're just kind of believing anything.
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Yeah.
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And I think that our ancestors were messy. Provides a potential lens that can help people not just get in touch with black history, but get in touch with the activity of doing research and figuring out things out in a way that supports a better people, more democratic institutions, and, you know, less and, like, more overall media literacy. That's all I'm saying.
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Just like, casually. That's. That was. That's just the thing that was like. Never mind. That was your idea. Okay, well, we'll discuss it, because a lot of people are asking about research. Like, that is a number one. It's just absolutely shocking to me. Comment on TikTok, because I did tell you that you're an influencer. We're an influencer. I'm an influencer now. And everybody's talking about the research, so maybe there's an audience.
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B
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that. I think that people don't understand how powerful research is. I think that there's a kind of. There's a false infinity that the Internet represents. I think people think that the fact of the Internet means that everything that could be known is present and accessible. And that has actually never been true. And so you. By just doing such a revolutionary thing as, like, digging in a box or checking in an archive, you're kind of coming out with information that shows that not only is this shit not available, but that you have to have the right configuration of curiosity to discover it. And therefore, we also need to relearn the art of curiosity. Anyway, that's why I hate the Internet.
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Okay, well, thanks so much, everybody. That's been Chioki Ayanson, research producer for our ancestors. We're messy.
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B
Pew, pew, pew.
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A
Yeah, it's like applause. There'll be other sounds. I don't add sound effects to these. Okay, great.