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- [00:01]
DSW Advertiser
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- [00:30]
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- [01:02]
Midi Health Advertiser
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- [02:06]
Kevin Allison
What the hell are you drinking? What was that?
- [02:09]
Ron Hart
I'm drinking matcha with.
- [02:12]
Kevin Allison
Oh, like iced matcha.
- [02:15]
Ron Hart
Mm. With coconut water.
- [02:18]
Kevin Allison
Oh, that's a good combo.
- [02:20]
Ron Hart
Oh, shit. Hello, folks. This is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison, and on the day that this episode comes out, the election of 2024 will be less than one week away. Now, I knew I Wanted to get a conversation in with my friend Ron Hart on the show before the election. And it was so encouraging to have this chat about, among other things, our political awakenings in our much younger days. So here we are now, Ron Hart, sharing a story with me that we call before the terribleness of now.
- [03:19]
Kevin Allison
I'm gonna start with a prologue, so. Which is very exciting. It's like a epic tale. So.
- [03:28]
Ron Hart
Wow.
- [03:28]
Kevin Allison
This is way back in 1983, I guess. 82, technically. Yeah, 82. President Reagan.
- [03:34]
Ron Hart
Oh, my God.
- [03:36]
Kevin Allison
Huge fan. Yeah.
- [03:40]
Ron Hart
And I go way back.
- [03:42]
Kevin Allison
Yeah. So he wrote me a letter thanking me for my support of his pro life movement.
- [03:51]
Ron Hart
Oh, yeah. So this was like a typed out thing that was signed.
- [03:57]
Kevin Allison
Yes. And I remember like debating with friends whether we think it was machine sign. I'm sure it was, but definitely had like the autograph on there. And I. It was like it had pride of place for a while. I don't know what happened to it now. I'm sure it's like haunting my parents attic or something. I don't know. But so just for context, I grew up Catholic and this was the time where you do your confirmation, which is like when you become an adult. It's like a Catholic bar mitzvah.
- [04:30]
Ron Hart
Yep.
- [04:31]
Kevin Allison
And part of that was you had to do service work, volunteer work, and they gave us like the class got all these options. And I picked like the working for the pro life movement. And the truth is.
- [04:46]
Ron Hart
Wow.
- [04:48]
Kevin Allison
The reason I did it was the mom who came in to speak about like every option had like a mom that came in and like talked about what you would be doing. And the one who was in charge of that was a former Miss Illinois and was like, this is decades before the term milf, but it was definitely like that was. And so I signed up basically just to be around her. So like horniness drew me into the pro life movement. Wow. I don't remember what we did. There was no, like shooting abortion doctors. We weren't forming human chains outside clinics. I think we did a lot of like stuffing envelopes and sending them off to who knows. And I remember whenever we were doing it, the hot mom would sort of just be lecturing us about all the sort of like pro life talking points. And like, you know, at this stage, the baby's eyes work and you know, like they have dreams and what. All that stuff that I'm sure people have heard. And it was effective. I definitely bought it hook, line and seeker. Like I said, I was. I grew up Catholic, so I was like, I believed If I jerked off, I was going to go to hell. And if you have an abortion, you're committing murder. That was where I was emotionally. I never questioned it. Just thought that was how it was supposed to be. All right, so that's the prologue. So then I went to college, moved out of my parents house and instantly stopped being any kind of Catholic. They showed me when they dropped me off at campus. They're like, there's the Newman Center. And I was like, I'm never going in there now. The only exception I had was every time I had sex I would pray that I hadn't gotten the girl pregnant. So that was like my religious experience at the time. So basically I was still avoiding really thinking about the abortion thing, but was also still as horny as I was when I was a 12 year old. And I got a girlfriend when I was 19. And I was bananas about her, you know, 19 is just that eight. It's just you're just stupid, you know, it's like the first cut is the deepest kind of thing. It was like so intense. Just really like deep, deep emotional romantic feelings. And also just crazy horny, like couldn't keep our hands off of each other. Just, you know, it was just the best time to be in love. And mostly a wreck, but I'm an idiot. And to me it was like because I had this purity of. It was our first love and everything was so perfect. And I wasn't happy with where I was going to school, so I transferred school. So now we were in a long distance relationship. So she was in Indianapolis and I was in Syracuse. And this is 1989. It's not like you can FaceTime and there's no sort of direct transit route that's going Indianapolis to Syracuse. They're just both kind of. So, you know, this is like back in 1989 where you would like call on Sundays. Cause it was cheaper, you know, that was like when long distance calls were supposed to take place. And it was just like it was a big deal. Anytime we were gonna see each other in person, you know, it was just too expensive for us to do it every weekend. It was an event. But she finds out that now the National Organization of Women is like there's a big pro choice rally happening in Washington D.C. this year, this 1989 and now is actually subsidizing buses from college campuses to get to this event. This is the 80s. This is before George Soros started paying all of us antifa volunteers millions of dollars. This is the best we could do. But yeah. So she realized, like, for 20 bucks, each of us could hop on a bus from our respective campuses and see each other in Washington D.C. and you know, get to hang out for the afternoon. And it sounded like a great idea. So I took a seven hour bus ride to Washington D.C. to try to get laid at a pro choice rally.
- [08:49]
Ron Hart
Wow. Okay, so wait, wait, wait. This bus, was it filled with a bunch of other people who were going specifically for the rally?
- [08:56]
Kevin Allison
Yes.
- [08:57]
Ron Hart
Yeah. Oh my God.
- [08:59]
Kevin Allison
So, yeah, I sign up for this thing and I think it was like the NOW chapter of Syracuse was like sponsoring the bus. So I get onto the bus. It wasn't full, but it was like maybe like 30 or 40 people. And I am the only male, like the entire bus, I'm the only man. And this is true. Until that moment, it never dawned on me that the sort of pro life, pro choice debate was something that was important to women.
- [09:31]
Ron Hart
Oh, wow.
- [09:34]
Kevin Allison
Like, because I had like grown up in this pro life, you know, belief system and I would go to these meetings and yes, there was the hot mom that would give me the details. But it was also like a lot of the people that I met were all men, you know.
- [09:49]
Ron Hart
Yeah.
- [09:50]
Kevin Allison
And that was like their thing. And I didn't understand at all that it was more important to women. Maybe that's not the right way to phrase it, but that's, you know what I mean? Like, it was like. Right.
- [09:59]
Ron Hart
That it was such a central issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:02]
Kevin Allison
Yes.
- [10:03]
Ron Hart
Cause you hadn't heard their perspective in your, you know, education. Right, right.
- [10:09]
Kevin Allison
And like, so I get on this bus and they're like, probably mostly lesbians, I would imagine. I didn't know specifically back then, but they were, you know, they weren't used to the company of men is I guess what I would say. And they were all very surprised to see a man get on and like, excited. But then they find out that I'm going there to see my girlfriend. And it was just like this guy, funny. But I was on the bus with my friend. She was planning to go anyway. And so we were riding together. So it's a seven hour bus ride and it's 1989, it's 10,000 Maniacs, Melissa Etheridge the whole way down. And she's a really good friend of mine. We had a couple classes together, but we had this long stretch of time together. And during the ride she opens up to me about why she's going and tells me that the year before she was 18 and she had had an abortion.
- [11:06]
Ron Hart
Wow. Uh huh.
- [11:07]
Kevin Allison
And not gonna tell her story, but it was an intense tale. And just to suffice to say, her life would be very different if she had not made that decision.
- [11:17]
Ron Hart
Right.
- [11:18]
Kevin Allison
But for me. And not to diminish her story, but like, I'm only talking about my side of it, which is that, like, this is the first time I'd ever like, met someone who's like, had an abortion that I knew of, you know, Nobody had ever said that to me, you know, and it wasn't like all this like theoretical stuff like, you know, the baby can dream at 4. Like, it wasn't right.
- [11:38]
Ron Hart
It was someone's lived experience.
- [11:40]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, exactly. It was also like something she really wrestled with, you know, it was a big deal, you know, that she had done it, someone I knew and I cared about. So it made this big impression. Okay, so the bus gets to D.C. and we have to. There's like a rally point and you kind of like. I think there was like a subway ride and then you get to the mall for the rally and it's just this like sea of people. I looked this up and there were like 300,000 people at this rally. So now this is 1989, so you're not dropping pins. You can't like text someone.
- [12:15]
Ron Hart
Right?
- [12:16]
Kevin Allison
We had none of that shit. So this is how we did it. Two weeks before this rally, my girlfriend sent me in the mail, the snail mail, a postcard that was. She'd gotten it from like some gift shop. It was a picture of the Lincoln Monument. And on the picture she had circled a tree and on the back wrote, beat me there.
- [12:41]
Ron Hart
Gosh, that is hilarious.
- [12:46]
Kevin Allison
So I'm like, I'm walking around with this like, postcard and I'm like holding it up to like try to orient myself and I mean, you know, I probably would prefer an iPhone, but it fucking worked, you know? Founder.
- [13:02]
Ron Hart
Wow, that's incredible.
- [13:04]
Kevin Allison
Yeah. Yeah. Even with. Maybe it was just like pure hormones, you know? Cause it's this 19 year old looking for the one girl who would sleep with him.
- [13:14]
Ron Hart
The hormones will make a way.
- [13:19]
Kevin Allison
Exactly. So then, yeah, okay, so we see each other and it's on. It's, you know, it's 19 and it's like, to me, that's probably the only age where I've ever greeted someone with a full on tongue kiss, you know, it was just. It had been like three weeks since we'd been together and it was like you were ready to like burst into ashes, basically. So we're like desperate to get some solitude, find a little like Secluded nook where we could reacquaint ourselves. And this is like, again, me not looking at. Thinking ahead at all. We're on the national fucking mall. There's literally 300,000 people and, like, cops. And, you know, like, this is not a private place. And everyone's tromping around. It's kind of like the thing is getting started. So we're kind of, like, hunting for a while, and we basically. We find, like, some bushes that kind of, like, seclude. But there's definitely, like, an open spot. But we're like, you know, we're not fully hidden from view. But there was enough coverage where we felt a little bit like we were on our own. And she had brought a picnic and a lunch for us with, like, a blanket, because she had planned ahead. I brought, like, that postcard in my wallet and a comb, you know.
- [14:39]
Ron Hart
Wow. Yeah.
- [14:41]
Kevin Allison
So we sort of, you know, we spread out this blanket and we fall on each other's arms. We're making out a little bit, and it's very public. We basically rearranged the blankets to kind of give ourselves a little privacy. And to quote a former president, I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
- [15:01]
Ron Hart
Oh, my God. Meanwhile, the rally is pretty much. Much, like, underway.
- [15:07]
Kevin Allison
Yeah. Yeah. Truthfully, don't even remember. And we must have eaten the picnic lunch. I don't know. I only remember, like, that. That was, like. That was all I could think of. But then it was like, okay, we did it. You know, like, we. We've reunited, but now we're at this rally. So this is the second part of the story. So that was basically all I had thought about, was, like, I was gonna see her and we were gonna, like, you know, be able to touch each other again, basically. But now I am at this huge, like, massive hundred thousand people rally.
- [15:39]
Ron Hart
Yeah.
- [15:40]
Kevin Allison
And I've never been to a political rally in my life. You know, I'd done this stuff for, you know, the church, but it was always, like, you know, in basements or somebody's, like, living room or something. And I'd never seen anything like this. And it's. I've done it a lot since then, but there's this, like, just palpable energy to the whole thing. Like, you can, like, of course, feel it. Yeah. You have a lot of, like, you've done a lot of these rallies.
- [16:02]
Ron Hart
Oh, yeah. And there at the National Mall, you know, I mean, there's a lot of crowd control. That has to happen, too. You know, it can get a little confusing of, oh, my gosh how do we get from here to here with all these people?
- [16:17]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, and there's, like, a dais, and there's speakers up there. They're leading us in chants. Helen Reddy sang a song.
- [16:25]
Ron Hart
Oh, that's awesome.
- [16:27]
Kevin Allison
And, you know, there's always, like, that person at a rally who's got the fluorescent vests and their own bullhorn. Right. They think they're in charge and they're. Yeah, like you said, they're, like, trying to move you around to one place or another, and there's always somebody there handing out the flyer to the next one. You know, it's like, oh, well, come back next week and we're going to save the whales. It's like, can't get late at that one, buddy. But also at this one, because it was such a big thing. There was a counter protest that was like, a bunch of pro lifers.
- [16:56]
Ron Hart
Sure.
- [16:57]
Kevin Allison
And they had them, like, the police cording this off. So there was, like, a little, you know, separate area with, like, it was kind of fenced off, and you could, like, kind of wander over and look at them. Like it was like a zoo exhibit, basically. But I will say I do. Like, it was obviously like, we're literally on different sides of the fence. But it was cordial. It wasn't J6. There was not that kind of intensity. This was important to people, but, you know, I just kind of, like, soaked this all in. This was not at all why I had come. I didn't mean that pun, but so. But this was unexpected, you know, to really experience it. And I think a lot of it was having had that conversation on the bus with my friend kind of unlocked a new perspective and just feeling all of this passion from these, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, the chants, and we were taking pledges, and, you know, hearing the speakers, it was. It was amazing. And the whole time I had done the pro life thing, it always felt like we were angry with other people. You know, like, that was sort of the messaging that there were people who were murderers and doing terrible things. And this felt like us. You know, it didn't feel like we were fighting them. It was like we were together trying to preserve our rights. It was just a different perspective and just, you know, with little passion about it before I got there. And I really just got, like, sucked into the vibe of it, and it felt amazing. And, you know, like I said, I still like going to political rallies when it's something I believe in, but. Okay, so in the middle of this chaos, there's a group Parading through the crowd. They're banging on drums and, like, tambourines, and they're chanting, trying to remember the melody. Keep your laws off of my body. Keep your laws off of my body. And these women are just fucking badass, you know, they have nose piercings, they have armpit hair, they have tattoos. Like, this isn't shit you see in 1989. They're fucking intense. They are the hardest of the hardcore. And I remember one of the women had a denim jacket on, and she had a patch for Fishbone on one side and the Clash on the other.
- [19:13]
Ron Hart
Awesome.
- [19:13]
Kevin Allison
And I'm like, we're fucking following her because that's. We gotta see what they're up to. And my girlfriend's like, yeah, yeah, let's get in there. So they're sort of like. I said, keep my laws off your body. And it's like they're sort of forming this little chant, and people are, like, following them. They're like these militant feminist pied pipers. And we're kind of, like, skipping. I remember being like. We're kind of dancing around the crowd in this kind of, like, serpentine manner. And more people just kind of got sucked out of, like, the main group and started following them around. And we get pulled away from, like, the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument, and I. I don't know, D.C. i have no idea where I am, but I'm just. I'm following the cool chicks. And all of a sudden, we start forming this kind of circle. They sort of, like, start going in a circle, and the. The group that was there kind of starts moving around in a circle. And like I said, it's kind of rhythmic. And we're dancing, we're chanting, keep your laws off of my bodies. And I look up and we are on the steps of the Supreme Court, you know, which I recognize from, you know, television. I was like, holy shit. Like, we're. We're doing the thing. Like, we are, like, seriously, like, badass here. And one of the, like, the super cool, militant feminists takes off her bra from under her shirt, which is always a badass move. Like, it's always, like, cool, but she takes it off. And another one, like, holds up a lighter and. Or burning a bra, like, in front of the Supreme Court, you know? And other women in this crowd, like, see this, and they all start, like, peeling off their bras and, like, they're throwing it on this. Like, there's a smoldering pile of lingerie on the steps of scotus. It's amazing. Right. And now, like. Because, like, this is kind of broken away, like, all of a sudden, like, you sense that there's, like, news cameras and more people are coming around, like, what's happening here? And it's like, it just felt like, you know, we had, like, done this, like, thing. We had taken this, like, step. And like, I said, like, I felt this, like, communal energy, and it was, like, so powerful to really just feel, like, part of it. And it was like, again, like, you know, keep your laws off of my body. We're saying that over and over again. And there's, like, anger in it. There's passion in it. There's, like, just this, like, feeling of, like, you know, we're protesting. We're like, you know, it was intense. So it was just this visceral thing, and I just had no idea that that could happen with politics. And my girlfriend is like. She wanted to burn her bra, but she's like, I wore a really nice one for you. And I was like, oh, you don't. You don't have to burn the good one. You know, like, this is. You don't have to go nuts. So. But we're just. We're really into it. So then, though, the woman with the lighter has a backpack, and she reaches into the backpack and she pulls out an American flag. And the second it came out, you could feel, like, the mood shift. It was like. It was darker. And she starts dangling this thing over the sort of bra bonfire, trying to catch it. And there was a lot of discussion back then about flag burning.
- [22:12]
Ron Hart
There was.
- [22:12]
Kevin Allison
I think somebody had proposed, like, a constitutional amendment to ban it, which is fucking bullshit. Like, you should absolutely burn a flag if that's how you feel. Like, that is. I 100% support that. Like, that is like, you're right, but I didn't feel like that was me.
- [22:31]
Ron Hart
Right. You hadn't signed on for that. Exactly. Hadn't thought that through. Well, you hadn't thought any of this through.
- [22:36]
Kevin Allison
But I hadn't thought anything through. Yes. Correct. But, yeah, it was like. Like I said, it was like it went from being this, like, communal thing to feeling like, oh, I'm like an accessory to this thing that I don't feel right about. And like I said, I. Like, if that's how they feel, I totally respect that and that they should do that. But I feel like me being there makes it seem like I'm, like, co signing it. And I just didn't. And a lot of people did. So you just kind of, like, we all kind of drifted away. And, like, we just, you know, my girlfriend and I just kind of, like, got out of there. We all drifted away from the badasses, and we went back to the rally. And eventually that kind of broke up, and my girlfriend and I had to say goodbye and get back onto our, you know, respective buses going in different directions. And then, you know, rode home with my friend. And she had had this, like, really emotional day, was kind of overwhelmed by it all. And she, like, fell asleep on my shoulder for the whole bus ride. But I just. I couldn't sleep because I had this, like, energy just, like, vibrating through me. And then the next day, I got a newspaper. Some of your readers may remember those, where the news would. The websites would be printed on paper, and on the front page was, like, a sort of aerial photo of this rally, you know, and it's like sort of like the postcard where I'm trying to, like, circle myself on it. And I'm like, somewhere in this mass of humanity, I'm there, and I'm just a tiny speck of it, possibly at that moment, getting a blowjob, right? But it felt like I just was part of something that really mattered. And I remembered that one of those speakers had led the crowd through this pledge that we would only vote for candidates who supported a woman's right to choose. And at the time, it just felt like, you know, parroting words sort of thing. Basically the same thing I would do at Catholic Mass. You know, just say back what you're supposed to say.
- [24:31]
Ron Hart
Right? The Apostles Creed. Yes, good.
- [24:35]
Kevin Allison
Someone's a recovering Catholic. But in this, like, quiet moment, I was like. I really felt the weight of that. Like, I had made this promise. And I realized that this cause meant something to me. And I had seen that it was important to women, but I realized it was not a women's issue. You know, this was, like, a human rights issue. And it impacts people in real ways, like my friend. And like the, you know, hundreds of thousands of people there, a lot of them had this personal connection to the story. So that was where I decided that this was a pledge that I was not going to break. And I still haven't. And I tore out the picture of the paper, and I mailed it to Sherry and circled our spot and said we were there.
- [25:13]
Ron Hart
Stick around for more of Ron Hart's story.
- [25:17]
Kevin Allison
We'll be right back.
- [25:19]
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- [26:28]
Ron Hart
Giving hey folks, I wanna tell you about a new podcast called Reflector. If you love Risk, you love TR Stories, right? And on each episode of Reflector, they really dive into some of the thorniest, messiest issues facing our society today, from addiction to election denial to what inspires people to commit violence. And they weave together a story that highlights the nuances and idiosyncrasies of our human nature. On a recent episode, I was so excited to see that they have my friend Mike Pesca come on to talk about how and why why politicians lie well, some more than others. So you can find this new podcast by searching for Reflector right now on whatever app you're using to listen to Risk.
- [27:23]
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- [28:24]
Ron Hart
My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.
- [28:38]
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- [28:53]
Kevin Allison
To be. We're back.
- [28:56]
Ron Hart
Oh, that's incredible. Gosh, that is so poignant because. So, yes, I was raised very, very devoutly Catholic. And at the age of 54, I'm still unpacking ways that it affected me negatively. Like really, really kind of fucked up some parts of my psychology. But yeah, it's interesting, a lot of people don't know that, say, round about the early 70s, after Roe had passed, this issue was not front and center. It was really. There was a choice among. For gaining political momentum. It was literally a choice amongst a lot of folks around Reagan and whatnot. Oh, if we choose to make this an issue, it's so visceral and can be spoken of so archetypally that it can become a hot button that's hard for people to touch in ways that other policy things don't. And I remember when I was in grade school, so I graduated from grade school, from the eighth grade when I was. That was 1984. But I remember those things where it was the whole. Or maybe it wasn't the whole school. Maybe it was the sixth, seventh and eighth graders were asked to come to the gym and someone gives a presentation and you're shown these, you know, very gory photographs and it's a whole prepared presentation that certain Catholic and right wing groups were sending around every grade school and whatnot.
- [30:40]
Kevin Allison
Yeah.
- [30:41]
Ron Hart
And yeah, I can totally relate that when you're raised in a. Well, whatever the belief system is or a system that has a lot of, like, beliefs and mores, you know, to not be able to hear other perspectives can really leave you, you know, like a baby in the world. I remember when I moved to New York, same thing, we had the Catholic Center.
- [31:11]
Kevin Allison
Oh, yeah.
- [31:11]
Ron Hart
And I was like, am I really ever going to go there or not? But it did take a while for me to consider myself no longer a Catholic.
- [31:22]
Kevin Allison
Yeah.
- [31:23]
Ron Hart
I remember because I went to a Jesuit high school where there was a lot more Encouragement of making up your own mind about things.
- [31:32]
Kevin Allison
Were you co ed or was it all boys?
- [31:33]
Ron Hart
No, all boys.
- [31:35]
Kevin Allison
Oh, boy. Yeah, you got the hardcore.
- [31:38]
Ron Hart
Oh, yeah.
- [31:38]
Kevin Allison
I got to quit after grade school, but okay.
- [31:41]
Ron Hart
Oh, my. I was. I was literally kind of being groomed to be a priest. And it had a lot to do with the fact that my, you know, that the priest there suspected I was gay and then me coming out to my parents. So there was a little bit of colluding going on. Let's get this boy into the priesthood. And I think that happens a lot.
- [32:02]
Kevin Allison
And with great results.
- [32:04]
Ron Hart
Yeah. I do remember when I got to New York, the Jesuits were being cracked down on in the West Village for allowing women to, like. I don't know if it was maybe even say parts of the Mass as if they were a priest or whatever. Just including women more. And gay people. So it was being cracked down on. And that was really the beginning of me, like, really trying to get a foot out of there. But it's interesting because that was also. I guess it was 93 when I attended my first on the mall.
- [32:42]
Kevin Allison
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [32:43]
Ron Hart
Which was the.
- [32:44]
Kevin Allison
What was that for?
- [32:45]
Ron Hart
Big gay rights protest that was happening.
- [32:47]
Kevin Allison
Was it, like, act up?
- [32:49]
Ron Hart
No, no, it was just like the whole gay community had decided, you know, all gay organizations were gonna just rally on the mall on this particular day. And it was probably about the, you know, a fairly similar size to the one you described. And I remember being very thankful for lesbians that day because they. They were. They were the ones that were keeping everyone corralled and going in the right direction and whatnot.
- [33:15]
Kevin Allison
For sure. Yeah.
- [33:16]
Ron Hart
But it's also funny to me that this whole story comes out of your horniness. I mean.
- [33:23]
Kevin Allison
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Ron Hart
Right from the very beginning of the story, you were talking about confirmation and my confirmation name. So that's when you were about 12, going on 13 or so.
- [33:33]
Kevin Allison
Yeah. 7th, 8th grade. Yeah. Somewhere in there.
- [33:35]
Ron Hart
Yeah. My confirmation name was Luke, but not because I had any great admiration for St. Luke, but because I thought Luke Skywalker was hot.
- [33:52]
Kevin Allison
Oh, I love that.
- [33:55]
Ron Hart
Oh, shit.
- [33:57]
Kevin Allison
St. Luke of Tatooine.
- [33:58]
Ron Hart
Yeah.
- [34:00]
Kevin Allison
So I really resonated with you.
- [34:03]
Ron Hart
Yeah. I just love stories about someone's perspective broadening. Especially when someone's perspective is broadening based on hearing other people's like, oh, wait, you lived through this thing, you know?
- [34:20]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, yeah. And I think, like, to go back to what you were talking about, like, when they bring you in the. I think you're right. It was like the older kids at school and they would get brought into the room and they would give you this sort of, like, scared straight version of abortion. And, like, you just.
- [34:33]
Ron Hart
Exactly.
- [34:34]
Kevin Allison
You just did an episode about a bucket of Barbies, and I feel like there was, like, a bucket of babies.
- [34:39]
Ron Hart
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:40]
Kevin Allison
And it, like, it's so dehumanizing to the people having the abortions because it's like the sort of, like, working thing is that, like, they have no emotions about it, that they're. It's selfishly driven, and it's all, like, just, like, done without any regard for any kind of, like, humanity. That is just, like, so not the case for the vast majority, you know, and, like, I mean, I'm not going to speak. We should. We should speak for all women right now, Kevin. Is that. That's what we should do.
- [35:09]
Ron Hart
But, I mean, me and you. Yeah, sure.
- [35:12]
Kevin Allison
I think, you know, the people that I know personally who have had abortions all have had serious, like, moments where they had to wrestle with, is this the right thing? And thought about it, like, after doing it, like, of course it is not something, you know, that you take easily, you know, and when Dobbs came down, I remember thinking, you know, I have two daughters, and I remember thinking, like, something was just taken away from them.
- [35:37]
Ron Hart
Yeah.
- [35:38]
Kevin Allison
Like, they have less rights right now than they did, you know, this morning. And it is not just them. It's not, you know, this isn't like, I'm not, like, girl dadding this. It's like, because it's also. It's everyone's rights, you know, the idea that, like, people in a doctor's office making a choice are supposed to, like, have the state in there. That's a scary idea. And because of, like, the loaded context of this, it sort of, like, crept into, like, that being okay. But it's not, you know, and it's. It's depressing that we're still there and, you know, and it feels very unsettled and. Yeah, I don't know. It's depressing.
- [36:17]
Ron Hart
I think it's rather scary that one of the reasons you hear people say, never forget after something especially traumatic or historic is because, my goodness, do people forget quickly? You know, I think that. But, like, all through my life, Roe versus Wade was just kind of settled, you know, like, it didn't seem like that was ever going to go anywhere. So, like, you say it was this creeping. And it's still the case that it's this minority. You know, it's an interesting thing that he does trump that he does, because he. He uses whether or not he's conscious of it or not. He uses lots of hypnotic techniques and one of the things he's been trying to pull this time around in the past year or so, whenever he's asked about it, is to say, well, everyone wanted Roe versus Wade gone, you know, because he believes that Hitler idea of if you just keep repeating a lie, eventually it'll just kind of seep into the ether. Oh, oh, my God. Everyone wanted it. You know where.
- [37:29]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, where?
- [37:30]
Ron Hart
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's very, very unpopular and oh, my goodness. I pray that that, you know, helps us over the finish line.
- [37:40]
Kevin Allison
And like you said earlier, like, about like kind of Reagan picking up this mantle and then like we were, I think we're right around the same age and I was totally oblivious to that. Like, it felt like this was like a generations long fight that had been going on and it was like, you know, within the last, like five or 10 years that it had even become like this like, lightning rod issue. It just instantly, like just split people. So there's just no way to like reconcile the two points of view, which is, you know, a bad place to be.
- [38:12]
Ron Hart
Yeah, they got better and better and better over the years at taking these sort of issues where you feel like, oh, you've gotta be all the way for one or all the way for the other. And yeah, yeah, it really is quite something, I think, you know. Cause I started paying attention to politics even as far back as when Jimmy Carter was president. But I could have never foreseen that Reagan coming in would be this paradigm shift that would be affecting me for the rest of my life. And I think we can say the same now, you know, like, there have been other ones. Like FDR was a huge paradigm shift. Yeah, we could use something like that again. But I think that, you know, Trump, I did realize the first time he came in, oh, the reverberations of this will go on till I'm lowered into the grave. You know what I mean? Like, this is the. I think so the way the ripples of this, of how much is wrong with this is going to keep haunting us. But at the same time, there's always the reaction the other way, you know, so who knows what ripples we might be able to be planting right now. I don't think you plant ripples, but.
- [39:44]
Kevin Allison
We'Re dropping pebbles that are forming ripples or. Yeah, planting. Well, you drop the turds in the soil and then the plants spring up from the turds. So there's lots of turds falling everywhere. Right now. And it's gorgeous. That rally you went to in 93. So you must have been like, right out of college.
- [40:04]
Ron Hart
Yeah, yeah, right out of college.
- [40:06]
Kevin Allison
What was that like? I mean. Cause this was like. I felt very, like, safe, even, like, with the pro life people there. I felt like they were doing their thing and they were angry with us, but I never felt threatened. But it was not like today, it's not a great time to be a gay person, but to be really out and vocalizing the desire to have rights, what was that like? I mean, were there counter protests?
- [40:33]
Ron Hart
Yeah. It's interesting to me that when I was in my early 20s, gay rights, whether it was a take back the march march or, you know, my first gay pride in New York City was just like a euphoric experience because I had been so very conscious that I was gay from really going back to, like, the beginnings of me being able to formulate language and all. So I had been, like, in fear my entire childhood and adolescence. And when I attended my first gay pride in New York in, I guess it was 1989, oh, my gosh, it was so euphoric. And I remember having this feeling of, oh, my gosh, the world gets us now. And then, like, walking a couple of blocks away, just walking a couple of blocks away and getting yelled at by some punks in a car. Faggot. And someone throws something at me and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah. No, actually, it's over there. Two blocks over is where the whole world gets it.
- [41:47]
Kevin Allison
You know, thank you 80s for reminding us.
- [41:50]
Ron Hart
But it's weird because there's a saying that New York is for the very rich or the very young. And it's weird because the older I've gotten, the more I've. The more those feelings that I grew up with of, oh, you don't belong anywhere. You don't really have a sort of quote unquote family in the, you know, like, chosen family sort of sense. Like those. You're all alone, you're too different. The world isn't designed for you. Those are so hardwired from childhood that they kind of crept back in as I've gotten older. So that now when gay pride comes around, it causes me a lot of social anxiety and depression of, do I really fit in this community? And, you know, like, back then it was just so easy to be like, yeah, we deserve to be treated like everyone else. And now it's kind of confusing because it seems like so much of gay culture is for the very rich or the Very young.
- [42:58]
Kevin Allison
Oh, yeah.
- [43:00]
Ron Hart
And, yeah, it can just when you spend too much time, I guess, immersed in the bigger story of the world, things just get more confusing rather than less. You know, that whole, oh, are we making steps forward or how many steps are we taking back? Nowadays? It feels hard to keep track of that sort of thing, you know?
- [43:25]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, yeah. Cause I definitely. I mean, a straight cis, you know, white guy. But it feels to me like in my lifetime, there have been enormous strides for, you know, for queer people. And yet also in a lot of ways, there's more existential threats than ever.
- [43:43]
Ron Hart
Things come with such a backlash, you know, it's really crazy. I remember hearing Noam Chomsky talk about how exciting it was in the late 60s when he said, it just felt like there was this so much energy behind a more democratic, liberated way of thinking. And he was saying this shortly before he died. He was like, I just had no idea how harsh and deep and long the backlash to that would be. And I think, you know, the falling of ROE is like a perfect example of, holy shit, we did not see that coming.
- [44:32]
Kevin Allison
But to go back to what you said earlier about, you know, planting the seeds of ripples, that a lot of that period he's talking about is sort of the post Eisenhower red scare, you know, like, everybody's a communist and a lot of, like, witch hunts happening. And there was like this backlash of, like, young people being like, what the fuck? Calm the fuck down. Let's get high, you know, and why are we killing communists 7,000 miles away? And like, that was like, a lot of that came out of, you know, it was like there was this queer movement. There were the second wing feminists and the, you know, the anti war activists. They all kind of like happened at the same time. And then there was like this. Yeah, like, that was the era we came up in which was like, oh, look at America getting better. That was how it felt.
- [45:21]
Ron Hart
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
- [45:23]
Kevin Allison
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Ron Hart
And when I think about it, I think that young people today, like, the way that they look at the media, for example, like, when I was growing up, you kind of had to be taught media literacy. Like, oh, this is actually like, you had to go to Noam Chomsky to learn about, like, oh, most of this is just bullshit from the people who own the media. Kids nowadays know that. So, like, so much of the terribleness of now is being recognized as terribleness by the younger folks. And that's true.
- [46:02]
Kevin Allison
That's a good point.
- [46:03]
Ron Hart
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:04]
Kevin Allison
Because I mean, I really feel like this was like going to that rally was like sort of like my first fact check.
- [46:11]
Ron Hart
Yeah.
- [46:12]
Kevin Allison
You know, we're like, oh, maybe Papa Reagan doesn't always tell you everything the way it actually is. And. Yeah, because you sort of got spoon fed all of that and there was this like, yeah. Sort of consensus. And like, and you're right, nobody kind of questioned the media until you, like, you get older and start studying it as an actual, like, medium. And they don't teach you Noam Chomsky in Catholic grade school. Yeah.
- [46:41]
Ron Hart
Oh, my gosh. Well, we're recording this before the election. I wonder, I can't even think off the top of my head if we'll be able to run it before the election. And so.
- [46:52]
Kevin Allison
Well, you better, because who knows if you'll be able to run it.
- [46:56]
Ron Hart
Shut all podcasting down.
- [46:58]
Kevin Allison
No, it's. Yeah, it's just my dumb personal story of realizing something. But yeah, I mean, it'd be great to think that it could have some kind of impact. But yeah, I think this story came to me because of like the sort of temperament of the world right now. Post doves. It's, it's, it's been on my mind. And it does mean people can change. And you can, you know, you can swallow a lot of propaganda and you can still like, form your own opinions about things and absolutely figure things out and hopefully that still exists in the world. Sometimes it doesn't feel that way anymore, but I don't know. Got to keep trying, right?
- [47:39]
Ron Hart
That whole lesson of the story, that kind of getting out of your fishbowl and, you know, meeting a different sort of people or people who are doing something different can be quite illuminating.
- [47:50]
Kevin Allison
Yeah, you just have to be motivated by sex, apparently.
- [47:53]
Ron Hart
But. Well, I always am and that is that. Don't forget to vote on November 5th if you haven't already, and tell everyone you know to do the same. You can find Ron Hart online on Instagram @ron Hart 44. Folks, today's the day. Take a risk. Hey, folks, there's so much more of Risk in the holiday season. Risk is always publishing new episodes and new stories as well as holiday favorites. This holiday season, don't forget, click on Risk.