Classically Constrained

Summary

Podcast Summary: RISK! Episode - "Classically Constrained"

Introduction

In the "Classically Constrained" episode of RISK!, host Kevin Allison delves deep into the heartfelt and transformative journey of Carolyn Kendrick, a talented musician navigating the intricate balance between classical training and personal artistic expression. Joined by actress Kat Dennings, Carolyn shares her experiences, challenges, and insights that shaped her musical identity and personal growth.

Carolyn Kendrick's Early Musical Journey

Carolyn's musical foundation was firmly rooted in a classical tradition. Growing up in a family of musicians, she was immersed in a world where precision, discipline, and technical mastery were paramount.

• "From a very young age, my mom thought, well, here's what we need to do. We need to find the best teacher in Stockton." [10:17]

Under the Suzuki Method, Carolyn began her violin training, attending weekly individual and group lessons that emphasized regimented practice and technical proficiency.

• "It's very, like, militaristic in certain ways. This is how you hold it. This is how you go into rest position." [13:17]

Despite her rigorous training, Carolyn felt a disconnect between her musical education and her personal desires. While she excelled technically, she struggled to find emotional resonance in the classical pieces she was taught.

• "There was never a moment in my life where I felt like the music I am playing is connected to my soul." [22:03]

Struggle Between Classical Training and Personal Desire

As Carolyn progressed through her classical education, she became increasingly aware of the constraints imposed by the tradition. The emphasis on replication over interpretation stifled her creative instincts and left her yearning for a more authentic connection to her music.

• "It's the disconnect between, like, what I am being told to do, which is these very regimented approaches to music." [26:05]

This internal conflict extended beyond music, influencing other areas of her life where she felt compelled to follow external expectations rather than her own passions.

• "The disconnect was always there between, like, okay, what I am being told to do versus what I actually want to do." [27:50]

The Transformative Experience at Fiddle Camp

A pivotal moment in Carolyn's journey was her attendance at the Mark O'Connor Fiddle Camp hosted at Berklee College of Music. This experience marked a significant departure from her classical upbringing, introducing her to the vibrant world of folk and improvisational music.

• "It was the first time in my life where I was like, wait a second, I like this." [41:13]

At fiddle camp, Carolyn encountered a collaborative and supportive community that valued creativity and personal expression over competition. This environment allowed her to explore improvisation and connect with her authentic musical voice.

• "We are collaborating. We're playing together. We need to learn these songs together so that we can jam together." [41:13]

Discovering Community and Intrinsic Motivation

Through fiddle camp and her subsequent involvement in folk music, Carolyn discovered the profound impact of community and intrinsic motivation. She realized that engaging with music she genuinely loved fostered a deeper sense of fulfillment and connection.

• "I've been able to experience the connective and healing and, like, very progressive power of living in community." [46:11]

Carolyn emphasizes the importance of finding one's niche and building communities around shared interests, advocating for a move away from isolated and fragmented societal interactions.

• "You can find your niche. You might be into vintage cars, hand embroidery, growing calla lilies. Whatever it is, you can find community within that." [46:10]

Broader Implications and Lessons Learned

Carolyn's story offers valuable lessons on the significance of aligning one's pursuits with personal passions and the benefits of supportive communities. She critiques the often rigid structures of traditional education systems that prioritize external validation over internal satisfaction.

• "Teaching kids to connect what they want with what they should be doing is essential." [62:33]

She advocates for environments that encourage intrinsic motivation, allowing individuals to explore and develop their unique interests without undue pressure or expectation.

• "Decoupling desire from obligation will probably beget organic inspiration more so than the obligation." [58:08]

Conclusion

In "Classically Constrained," Carolyn Kendrick's narrative underscores the transformative power of pursuing one's authentic passions and the vital role of community in personal development. Her journey from the structured realm of classical music to the expressive world of folk and improvisation serves as an inspiring testament to the importance of self-discovery and intrinsic motivation. Carolyn encourages listeners to introspect, identify their genuine interests, and seek out communities that support and nurture their true selves.

Notable Quotes

• "Nothing like it. There is nothing like that." — Kat Dennings [48:55]

• "You are super atomized from each other. We can create community by looking for niche." — Carolyn Kendrick [47:02]

• "Fiddle is not for everybody, but it's a way to look forward and be like, how can I bring my values into what's left of my life." — Carolyn Kendrick [43:31]

Final Thoughts

Carolyn Kendrick's heartfelt story is a powerful reminder of the importance of authenticity and community in our personal and professional lives. By sharing her vulnerabilities and triumphs, she inspires listeners to take risks, trust their instincts, and cultivate environments where genuine connections and passions can flourish.

Transcript

[Kristen]

What is dax? Are you tracking all our cars on Carvana Value Tracker on all our devices?

[Taj]

Yes, Kristen, yes I am.

[Carolyn Kendrick]

Well, I've been looking for my phone.

[Kristen]

For In Dax's domain we see all.

[Taj]

So we always know what our cars are worth.

[Carolyn Kendrick]

All of them?

[Kristen]

All of them. Value surge trucks up 3.9%.

[Carolyn Kendrick]

That's a great offer.

[Kristen]

I know. Sell sell. Track your car's value with Carvana Value Tracker today.

[Carolyn Kendrick]

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[Taj]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful ABC.

[Tim Allen]

Tonight, Tim Allen and Kat Dennings star in the new family comedy Shifting Gears.

[Kristen]

Dad, I'm broke and I need a place to stay until I figure out what the rest of my life looks like.

[Tim Allen]

So a couple of days when his.

[Kristen]

Daughter moves back in. The last time you walked out that door, you looked back at me and.

[Kat Dennings]

Gave me a double bird.

[Kristen]

I was 18. The double bird was how I ended all our conversation. The wheels come off. Can we try to talk to each other like rational adults?

[Kat Dennings]

Have you watched the news lately?

[Kristen]

That's not A thing anymore.

[Tim Allen]

Series premiere tonight central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Kat Dennings]

Hello, darlings. This is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Tajistan and this is Carolyn Kendrick in the background now. And I am delighted to tell you that this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Carolyn Kendrick on this episode Today, this entire show is Carolyn Kendren. You might know Carolyn as the producer of two of the greatest podcasts in the whole fucking world. You are good and you're wrong about. Seriously, these shows are ungodly. They're so good, and they're both about you. We get to hear this expertly crafted music, but we also are going to talk to Carolyn about her life and about her inspiration and her challenges and her whole journey to getting where she is now. And, boy, this is a rich, heartfelt, incredibly thoughtfully told story. Carolyn is so warm and funny and charming and smart, kind of like a humbling that she would talk to me for so long because I am not as smart as Carolyn, nor funny, nor charming, nor is my voice as soothing and lovely. So, yeah, I feel pretty lucky. And I hope that y'all feel lucky too, listening to this God damn delightful story from Carolyn. Okay, enough of all this. I am proud and honored to present to you Carolyn Kendrick, in conversation with me with a story we call. Um. It's silly to name the story. It's just. She's talking to me is all. It doesn't have a name. Okay, it needs a name. The name of this story is. Ugh. It's. It's called Classically Constrained.

[Kristen]

Well, hello, Taj. I was hoping that I could tell you today about the fiddle.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, my gosh. I am absolutely here for it. And I've been listening to each machine a lot and hearing some of your fiddle work. So I have that in my head, getting ready to hear whatever you're gonna say.

[Kristen]

That's great. Well, before listening to my music, what's your relationship with the fiddle? What are your preconceived notions? What are the stereotypes that, you know? What's your experience with the fiddle?

[Kat Dennings]

I don't know. A ton. I mean, I grew up in this very kind of country area. I've spent a lot of time sort of trying to get away from country and having certain sort of, like, biases and stuff towards it. So. Never really considered myself a real fan of, like, country music or folk music. But that said, like, I've. I've been exposed to a fair amount and now I'm questioning that even, like, if that's that association of the fiddle with country art folk music is, like, a bit limited or. The first thing that comes to mind is what's the song? Is it Charlie Daniels, where he's the. He has the fiddle? Off with the devil.

[Kristen]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah, I kind of. I like that.

[Kristen]

What's that.

[Kat Dennings]

What's that song called?

[Kristen]

That song is called the Devil Went down to Georgia. And I'm really glad that that's what you brought up, because.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Co.

[Kristen]

I think that that is, generally speaking, like, people's first association with the fiddle is the devil. There's a song called the Devil Went down to Georgia by Charlie Daniels, who is a deeply problematic character but is revered within, like, the. The pan country canon.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

And my association with the fiddle, before I really started playing the fiddle.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Was very similar. Like, I grew up kind of in between these two worlds where I had, like, a lot of rurality. I had a lot of family who lived in very rural areas, and we're farmers, and a lot of my family is from Texas. So I had this, like, curiosity, I would say, about country music generally, but, like, I also went to public school in Stockton, California, which is, like, a decidedly hits the intersection between, like, urban and suburban.

[Kat Dennings]

Really does. Yeah.

[Kristen]

And there is, like, a deep distrust of country music generally, I would say. And in fact, like, like, pretty serious, like, ridicule of if you were to be somebody who enjoyed country or folk music or really, really anything that wouldn't have been on KHOP or any of the radio stations. And so that's kind of what my experience was limited to for a long time.

[Kat Dennings]

It wasn't cool to be, like, in the Fiddle in Stockdale.

[Kristen]

No. Dear God, no. No, no. Definitely not. Definitely not. And so, like, I would secretly listen. Like, I would never have told any of my friends this, but, like, I was secretly listening to the Dixie Chicks, and I was secretly listening to Reva McEntire and Dolly Parton, But I never. I never, never, never, never would have ever told anybody about it.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But there was also a big part of this story of me coming around to the fiddle.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

So my parents are both musicians.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kristen]

And not only that, but, like, my grandparents are also musicians and all my aunts and uncles. Well, not all of them, but, like, a lot of my aunts and uncles, a lot of my extended family, I come from, like, a whole family.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But there's very specific kinds of music that my parents play.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

So my mom is a French Horn player. And she is an incredible music educator. She basically, like, teaches music teachers how to teach. She is like a professor.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, wow.

[Kristen]

And so she has, like, a deep knowledge of pedagogy and she really knows a lot about, like, the best practices for how to ensure that children in, like, public schools and in private practice have, like, successful music education.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

Well, but because she came from a classical background, you know, and like, my family was very band oriented. My grandfather was the van director at Texas Tech for many years. Like 40 years or something crazy like that.

[Kat Dennings]

Damn.

[Kristen]

Like, I came from a very classically minded family.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

I would say.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

And so did you ever do, like, band or orchestra growing up in school?

[Kat Dennings]

No. No, I didn't.

[Kristen]

Okay. So. Well, before I was secretly listening to the Dixie Chicks in my closet, now known as the Chicks. I will say. Well, before that, my first experience with music was that my brilliant music educator mom decided that when we moved to Stockton, California, the best thing for me to do was because I had an interest in music. Like, I was always singing around the house and I was always, you know, like, I obviously had that desire to be in music.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

From a very young age, my mom thought, well, here's what we need to do. We need to find the best teacher in Stockton. And it kind of doesn't really matter, like, what instrument. We're just going to find the best teacher and we're going to send her that way.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Because your mom really knew the value of the teaching itself.

[Kristen]

Right, right, exactly. And so my mom, coming from a pedagogy background, was like, well, you know, the instrument is a little bit, shall we say, that's kind of like a secondary concern. Like, it doesn't really super matter if it's violin or cello or drums or clarinet or French horn. Like, that doesn't really matter. What matters is finding a teacher that is really good.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

That Carolyn can connect with.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah, got it.

[Kristen]

And I really appreciate that approach because I think one thing that is really hard for a lot of kids is that they have all of this musicality within them and they want to learn how to play music and they want to connect with other people through playing music. But for whatever reason, there's like a real downer of a teacher at their school, or there's a teacher who says that they don't sound very good, or there's a teacher that makes them feel bad or whatever, and then that kind of taints their relationship with making music for a long time.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. The first impression really matters.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, everybody knows, like, what it feels like to be in the presence of a bad teacher and feel belittled because, you know, you haven't been able to figure it out fast enough or, like, at the same pace as your peers or something like that.

[Kat Dennings]

Sure, yeah. Yeah.

[Kristen]

So it just happened to be that the best teacher in Stockton, California, in 1998 was this woman named Judy Bossois.

[Kat Dennings]

Hey.

[Kristen]

Okay. And I loved Judy. I loved Judy Bossoir. She and I are still in touch, like, on occasion, but she's since. She's since moved out of the state. So I was given, like, one of these tiny little box violins. Like, it was probably about the size of my hand.

[Kat Dennings]

Really. I didn't even know there was such a thing.

[Kristen]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're learning how to play violin, you're not actually given a violin right away. It's kind of like in the Karate Kid, when you're, like, sweeping with the. Or whatever, because they're like, you're not ready for the actual thing quite yet.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. You gotta wax on, wax off for a while first.

[Kristen]

You do. You have to wax on, wax off. Especially when you're little. I was 4 years old, and it's very common for kids on violin or really any string instrument or also piano. It's very common for kids to start at four years old. Five years old.

[Kat Dennings]

Damn.

[Kristen]

Yeah. So there I was. I was like, you know, had my little pigtails. I had these, like, straight across bangs. I was, you know, wearing my Gap sweatshirts, and I was marching up to my violin lessons with my. Like, my. My cardboard violin.

[Kat Dennings]

It was. It was really cardboard.

[Kristen]

It was really cardboard. Yeah. It was like this tiny little thing of cardboard and then like a. Like a ruler glued onto it. And for weeks, you know, weeks, if not months, you would practice. Okay. This is how you hold it. This is how you go into rest position. This is how you stand. It's very, like, militaristic in certain ways.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

This is how you stand. This is how you place your feet. This is how you move your feet when you pick up your violin to put it on your shoulder. This is how you hold the bow, which, for those of you who are unfamiliar, there's basically two components of playing any string instrument. There's the actual instrument, and then there's a bow, which is made out of horse hair and wood. And that's like what you drag across the string.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And the particular kind of program that I was going through was called Suzuki Violin. And so Suzuki was like, a real person and he developed this whole pedagogy of teaching stringed instruments as well as piano.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

And there are books that you go through when you're doing the Suzuki Method, right? And there's book one, book two, Book three. And like the very first thing that you learn once you graduate from having your Bach's violin to having a real violin is like Twinkle, twinkle little star. Right. Like you learn like, and it's like all basically like all open strings, right?

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, okay.

[Kristen]

Like you, you're not even like using your fingers yet. You're just, just trying to figure out how to get sound out of the instrument.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And so this was like the process for many years for me. It was like you do one thing at a time, right? Like it's very regimented, Right.

[Kat Dennings]

Like it sounds like it. Yeah.

[Kristen]

Like each piece that you learn, there's like a point to learning the piece. Right. It's very thought through. Right. So it's like when you, when you're learning Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, that's how you're learning what your open strings do.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

When you learn musette, that's how you're learning what slurs are and you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Kat Dennings]

Got it, got it.

[Kristen]

It's very thought through, right? But then there's also like a very thought through social component to the Suzuki Method, right? And so within that, you have your individual lessons where it's like you meet one on one with your teacher. So I'd go in every week and I'd meet Judy and I'd be like, I swear I practiced. This is what I practiced. I swear this is what I've done. And then there are group lessons where you meet with other kids who are your age and you work on songs together, right?

[Kat Dennings]

Oh.

[Kristen]

So, you know, I think there was probably like seven or eight other kids who were like about my same age and we were about learning the same things at the same time. And we would meet, you know, usually on Thursdays. You know, I'd have like my, my one on one lesson at 2:00pm and then we'd have group lesson at 4.

[Kat Dennings]

Right, okay.

[Kristen]

And then there's also like, you're learning how to read music at the same time that you're learning how to hear music. So you're supposed to be like learning, learning by ear as well. You know, like, for example, how you would do that is like if I had a Suzuki student right now, I would be like, okay, sing, play this back to me. And I go or whatever. And then they Would try to play it back to me.

[Kat Dennings]

Right, okay, got it.

[Kristen]

So I'm giving you all of this context just in case you're in the mood to start picking up the violin. Just not actually. I'm giving you all this context just to say that, like, my relationship with music very early on was very regimented. It was very thought through. It was very planned. It was very strategic.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

It was like a planned city. It was like, not like necessarily like organically stumbling onto what inspires.

[Kat Dennings]

Totally. Yes, yes. And it happens to be sort of exactly the opposite of how. Of my relationship to music early on. So it's all very fascinating to me.

[Kristen]

Yeah. What was your. Like, how was the opposite?

[Kat Dennings]

Mine was just like, opposite in the sense that totally sort of organic or chaotic, self led, no teachers. It was like, oh, I love, you know, the sound of a guitar, so I'll go try to get a shitty one from a thrift store. And with no guidance at all. Like, driven entirely by my love and with, like, very little intention and being not thought through at all in the approach.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah. I do think that those are the two ends of the spectrum, I would say.

[Kat Dennings]

Totally. Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

But like, in the meantime, like, I had this totally independent relationship to music, you know, Like, I was similarly. I would go to thrift stores and I would comb through all of the CD section and I would like, you know, when itunes came out, that was a huge deal for me, you know, because do you remember, like, at Starbucks they would have those like, free song of the week cards?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Oh, my God. That was like. I was like, always like the first one there so I could get my free song of the week. Right, Nice. And like, I loved music, but I never listened to classical music. I never. Never ever.

[Kat Dennings]

Right, you were listening to the Chicks in the closet when no one was looking.

[Kristen]

Exactly, exactly. And I was like, I was listening to the chicks. And then I was listening to like, a lot of Motown and I was listening to a lot of like, R and B. And I was listening to a lot of pop music and a lot of songwriters and, like, I could. I was really just trying to get my hands on anything I could. And it just never even occurred to me that I would want to listen to classical music, like, at all. And so, like, my. My dad is a jazz drummer, but he also, like, plays orchestrally. And he and my mom were both in the Stockton Symphony for many, many years.

[Kat Dennings]

Wow. Okay.

[Kristen]

And so, like, as I was developing in my. My musical technical ability, you know, I was taking all these lessons and you know, entering concerto competitions and I was like getting deep into this classical scene.

[Kat Dennings]

Damn, how old are we talking at at this point? We're starting doing concerto competitions and I.

[Kristen]

Think the first time I was ever a soloist with, I also was doing choir pretty seriously at this time. So the first time I was ever a soloist was in third grade with, I'm pretty sure the Stockton Symphony.

[Kat Dennings]

Holy shit.

[Kristen]

And then like I was doing concerto competitions starting in like middle school and like applying for all state and yeah, just really doing any type of like accolade I could try to go for. That's like what I was. And I don't think it was necessarily anything that I specifically was. My ambitions were genuine in the sense that I've always wanted to be really good at whatever I was doing, but I didn't really care about being the best. But I did know, because my parents were musicians, I knew that if I wanted to be a musician in the music industry, it's a competitive industry, it's a changing industry at all times. And so I think I knew from a very early age that if I was going to do it seriously, I needed to get every leg up I could. And that included doing these, you know, kind of intense like training and, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit similar to like gymnastics in certain ways. You know what I mean? Where it's like, if you're going to do it, you got to like do it really hard.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. And so. But you were pretty self motivated. I mean, if your parents were encouraging, they were not like pushing you to do all this stuff against your will.

[Kristen]

Well, that is kind of the eternal question that I don't actually have clarity on because I'm not sure what was self initiated and what was pushed by my parents. Like, I think my parents were always in dialogue with me of being like, is this something that you want? I don't think that if I specifically said I want to quit, like, I think it probably would have taken like a couple years of me saying I want to quit before I was actually allowed to quit. You know what I mean?

[Kat Dennings]

Like, okay, okay.

[Kristen]

But I don't think it's hard to know. It's really hard to know because like, I have lots of memories of me being like, I don't like this, this doesn't feel right, I'm not into this. But then I simultaneously have a ton of memories of being like, this is the most joy I've ever felt. I have this huge social circle because of all of these kids that I've Been growing up playing with. This is like a huge part of my life and it feels so good to me. And I love music. Music is like the only thing in my life that I super, super care about. And this is the only way that I have to connect with music. So I think all of it's true in the sense that like, it was self motivated. And also my parents pushed me maybe harder than I was ready for at certain times.

[Kat Dennings]

Wow, that is so fascinating that looking back, there's not even total clarity about like where it was all coming from.

[Kristen]

Yeah, totally. But I will say that, like, without a doubt, there was never a moment in my life where I felt like, I love classical music. There was never a moment in my life where I felt like the music I am playing is connected to my soul. It's connected to my expression, it's connected to like what I like. It's connected to what I want. Like, I did it because I wanted to be good at music and I wanted to have like a pathway to music. But this was kind of the only pathway that was like available to, to me at the time. Like I was in public school, there were still like a lot of gendered teachings and like, which instruments girls quote unquote, were pushed to do. So like, I was always given opportunities to like be the section leader for the string section and like, I was always given opportunities for singing, right? But like at the same time I was taking drum lessons with my dad and I played drums and like, I was. Everybody was always a little bit surprised that that was like something that I was also into and I kind of had to like push harder for those opportunities.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. People saw you as the classical musician, right.

[Kristen]

And like for years I was always like, well, but I want to play drums. Like, I want to do these other things. Like, I want to be in a band. I want to. But that just like, wasn't an option for me. And it just within my own narrative, Like, I was like, I wouldn't even know how to start a band. I don't know how to write songs. I don't know how to do any of this. Like, I don't know anybody else that's doing this right now. And so if I'm going to play music, like, I just got to do what I got to do, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Right. There's not the intensive music training programs or infrastructure. Like, if what you want to do is play punk rock bass or whatever, right. It's not there.

[Kristen]

Right. And also, like, that would have been pretty discouraged within my own life. Like, like, let's say like I did, you know, like, I came home from Tower Records or whatever and I like, looked through the punk section and I was like. And I found like a misfits record or something. Or like, you know, like, whatever. If I found some record and I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.

[Kat Dennings]

Right? Right.

[Kristen]

It would have been discouraged because my family's whole lens is pedagogy and they're like, well, how are you going to get good at that when, like, nobody. There's no. It's like a very accomplishment oriented way of. Of looking at things.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

And like, I don't begrudge my parents that worldview at all because, like, I do very much appreciate the technical ability that it's afforded me. But I will say that the many, many years of like, sitting through orchestra rehearsals, my parents would be in symphony rehearsals and I just remember I'd be like, God, this is like the most boring thing that's ever happened ever. I like, I would like, sit in the auditorium. Like, I got so good at counting the ceiling tiles. Like, I knew exactly how many ceiling tiles there were. And there playing these incredible great. You know, they're playing like Jupiter and Beethoven and Mendelson and like, they're playing all of these incredible works, but I just have no emotional connection to it whatsoever. And like, I actually am kind of like, sad that I couldn't have done some kind of like, Trading Places situation with. Because there are a ton of kids who would have, like, killed to be in that situation where it's like you get a free pass to just see so much art. And yet I was like, oh, my God, I wish I was listening to the Temptations or I wish I was watching Full House or like, something. Anything else but this. And like, the reason that I'm telling you all of this in the first place is not because, like, my particular journey through music is like, all that interesting, but rather, I think that the way that I came up through music, the issue was not like, oh, I want to play music. And then I had to find my own way through it. It's more so that I never developed the muscle to connect that, like, what I want to do is what I should be doing. Right. Like, the disconnect was always there between, like, okay, what I am being told to do, which is like, these very regimented approaches to music.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

It doesn't really matter what my organic desires are. There is like, a way to do things that I need to adhere to. And then maybe eventually my Desires will catch up to what I'm doing. Right.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Were you actively thinking, I'll get through this because it is gonna allow me to play music like I'm hearing on the Motown records or the Chicks records and stuff?

[Kristen]

Yeah. I don't know. I think I was just, like, fully operating on hope that one day I would like it, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, wow.

[Kristen]

I think my own worldview that I developed during that time was also, like, I don't actually really know what I like, because I am, like, being told that one thing is the good, right way to do things, and yet there's no connection to me between desire and action and fulfillment. Right. Like, and that transferred over to, like, many, many different things in many different arenas where it's like, okay, I am gonna go on a date with this person because, like, theoretically, they seem like they would be the right choice, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Right. They look good on paper or something.

[Kristen]

Right. And then I'm, like, not digging it in the moment, but I'm like, well, there isn't a connection between, like, digging something and it being valuable. Right. Like, that's what it felt like for me for a long time, where it was like, you know, I'm eating this food, and I'm like, I don't like it. But, like, other people like it, and, like, everybody says that it's supposed to be a really great food, so I should just, like, eat it and then, you know. Wow. Yeah. So that was kind of, like, the primary disconnect for me for a long time was, like, doing something does not necessarily have to come from a place of, like, organic desire. Right.

[Kat Dennings]

Holy shit.

[Kristen]

So anyways, that was my life in music for a really, really long time.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Taj]

We'll be right back, folks. This episode of Risk is sponsored by BetterHelp. Listen, have you thought about what you want your 2025 story to be? You know, a therapist can be, like, a story coach who is your editorial partner helping you write new chapters and create the meaning in the story you are living into the story you deserve to live. I remember in therapy, gosh, this must have been, like, 10 years ago. A therapist led me me through brainstorming on myths in my life, things that I believed that followed a certain storyline that were just not necessarily true. That was really profound to kind of step out of the fishbowl and reassess. I've definitely learned positive, positive coping skills from my therapy. And boundaries. Boundaries with others and with myself. Therapy is not just for people who have experienced serious trauma. It's a way of helping anyone to be your better self. And the thing about BetterHelp is it's completely online. It's affordable and convenient. It's a network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists. Lots of specialties. You can look for someone who meets your specific needs and you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. So write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com risk today to get 10% off your first month.

[Kat Dennings]

That's.

[Taj]

That's betterhelphelp.com risk.

[Ryan Broderick]

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It's good.

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[Kristen]

So, Taj, do you know what the difference between a violin and a fiddle is?

[Kat Dennings]

No.

[Kristen]

You can spill beer on a fiddle.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

That's like kind of the classic joke that always comes. So for those who are wondering, like, what is the actual difference between a violin and a fiddle? There is no technical difference. They are the same instrument. The other joke is that, like, one has strings. One has strings. Right. They're the same instrument.

[Kat Dennings]

One is respectable.

[Kristen]

Right. One comes from, like, a very Eurocentric tradition. And then one has like a more Appalachian, more Celtic, more black string band tradition context for it. Yeah, it's much more like Americanized and much more like colloquial and much more folk oriented.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Yeah.

[Kristen]

Anyways, I had been just, like, kind of muddling through my musical life, like, being like, well, I guess I'm supposed to like this. I'm just gonna pretend that I like this. And like, I don't know, maybe something will happen eventually.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And then I was very lucky that my aunt and uncle, they did a Fulbright program where they went and they lived in Tanzania for a year. And they were like, working on a music education program in Tanzania. This is when I was a junior in high school.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

And they invited me to come along with them for a while. And so that was like a huge, life changing moment for me because, you know, it was kind of the first time that I had been out of the country. For real. I was traveling by myself. And, like, part of the big thing was that I was going over there to, like, help them with part of their project, but it was mostly an excuse for me to kind of, like, see the world. And also I was going over because I was, like, gonna do this concert with the Nairobi Symphony that they were involved in as well.

[Kat Dennings]

Damn, Carolyn.

[Kristen]

It was, like, an incredible, beautiful trip. It totally, like, cracked open my worldview, like, as any, like, big travel like that would. But also because it was kind of the first moment where, like, I was meeting all of these people. All of these people who were from. They were mostly from Arusha, which is where the university was, where we were doing some work. It's a really incredible program that they were doing over there, and I think it's still happening. I haven't checked in in a while, but it was kind of the first time where I was really getting to hear a lot of folk music from that area and then starting to think about, like, oh, what does the role of folk music have within our daily lives? And what folk music am I a part of? You know, like, what is the lineage that. And so it was really cool to be able to, like, witness this preservation of all of this folk music and all these folk storytelling. And also, there's a lot of languages in East Africa, and a lot of them are becoming endangered or less common. And I was basically just like. I had no idea what I was doing. I was, like, 16 or 17, and I was just, like, kind of helping, like, whatever, you know, like, label tapes and stuff like that. Like, I wasn't. I was just kind of there as a witness to, like, all this really important work that was being done. But it was really transformational to me to be like, oh, there is an active effort being made right now where, like, people are preserving music and they're, like, being connected within their ancestry and, like, the role of music within this culture. They're connected to it, and they're living through it, and they're practicing, singing these old songs and all of these, you know, different practices. And it felt like much more organic to me than anything I had really experienced before. And there was also, like, this huge storytelling component with reserving these old folk songs.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And my aunt and uncle, they kind of knew for a while that I had been, like, sort of unhappy with being in the classical scene. And when you're 16, 17, you're starting to think about, like, okay, am I going to go to a conservatory? Am I, like, really Gonna commit to being a classical musician.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay. Yeah.

[Kristen]

Because at that point in time, like, that's kind of like what the option was for me. It was like, okay, I could go to a conservatory. I can, like, double down. And then maybe if I'm, like, really committed, I could be, like, a soloist with different orchestras.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kristen]

More likely, I would end up being, like, in an orchestra somewhere. You know, like a regional orchestra. Like, you know, and like, the hiring process for that is very competitive. It's very. You know, like, you can audition for years and years and years, and then you end up in the second violin section in Milwaukee or whatever, you know, and it's like you kind of go where the jobs are.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

I was just getting to this point where I was like, I'm starting to think about college. I'm having this transformational experience, like, interfacing with folk music in East Africa.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And I went and I played with the Nairobi Symphony. And I was like, what am I doing? Doing? Like, I'm all the way across the world and I'm playing this music that, like, I just truly have no connection to. And, like, I don't even really understand how to. I don't know how to get out of this hole that I've been digging for myself my entire life, essentially. Right. Luckily, like, my aunt and uncle kind of knew that I was going through this, and they were like, you don't want to be an orchestral musician. Like, you don't. We know that you don't want to do this.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And my aunt found this fiddle camp, and she sent me the information for this fiddle camp. And she goes, I think you should check this out. And I was like, fiddle camp? I don't think so. Like, fiddle camp. I don't know. Like, at that point in time, my association with it was, you know, I had been, like, backstage at these amongst orchestral musicians for so long, who can famously be, like, a little catty and a little snotty, have their noses is up at any other kind of music that isn't Berlioz or whatever. I was like, I don't even really know. I don't know, like, if I would connect with this.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

But she was like, just trust me. Go check it out. Do something else. And so I was like, okay, great. So the very first fiddle camp I ever went to was called the Mark O'Connor fiddle camp, and it was hosted at Berkeley College of Music.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, that's a big one.

[Kristen]

Yeah, it is.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And I saved up my money and, like, I applied for scholarships and blah, blah, blah. And when I say the words fiddle camp to you, what do you envision?

[Kat Dennings]

I mean, I guess. Well, I'm conflicted now because at first I would think pretty rural, folksy, country folk getting together and sort of informally playing a bunch of fiddle around a campfire or something. But then you also said Berklee School of Music, So now I'm just confused, I guess.

[Kristen]

Yeah. So there are a lot of different kinds of fiddle camps, but, like, the very first one that I went to, it was very much not that. Like, it was in a city. It's in Boston.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

It's at Berkeley. And all of the classes happen in, like, these music classrooms.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And they're like, truly some of the best musicians in the world. Like, the most technically skilled, the best improvisers, incredibly technically skilled. And also great teachers, I bet. One thing that is a bit of a misnomer is that fiddle camp is not just for fiddles.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, okay.

[Kristen]

There's lots of instruments involved. There's fiddles and there's cellos and there's banjos and mandolins and guitars.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

It's usually very string focused. Like, it's very uncommon that you would see, like, a bass clarinet player there or something like that, though it's not totally unheard of.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay, but.

[Kristen]

So it's not only fiddles.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. But it's significant that they're calling it fiddle camp and not classical music or string camp.

[Kristen]

Right, right, right, exactly. And so there was, like, a jazz violin element at this particular kind of fiddle camp. And I was like, well, maybe I've always kind of wanted to improvise. Maybe this is how I can kind of start getting into it. And improvising is also a big part of a lot of different fiddle traditions, which is very different from classical.

[Kat Dennings]

The opposite of classical. Right?

[Kristen]

Definitely the opposite of classical school.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

So anyways, basically, I landed at this fiddle camp and I met so many incredible people, and it felt so different from all of the competitiveness that I had been around before. All of the. Like, we're competing for this one chair on this one orchestra.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

We're competing to be the soloist. We're competing to see who's going to get the scholarship. We're competing to see who's going to get the best teacher. We're competing to see do all of this.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And all of a sudden, I was landed in this culture where I was like, we are collaborating. We're playing together. We need to learn these songs together so that we can jam together.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

And Like, I am learning how to not only just play melody stuff, I'm learning how to improvise. I'm learning how to back this other person up so that I can be, like, within a. Like, an accompaniment role. There's more roles involved. And also, I landed in this at this camp for the first time, and I realized all of these people have known each other forever. They're all friends, and they're all sharing resources with each other, and they're like, are you going to be at the next camp that's happening? Are you going to be coming to the one that happens in Nashville? Are you going to be at the one that happens in California? Are you going to be at Shasta? And so there's this whole network and community of people, and they are all genuinely psyched to be with each other, which felt like such a different vibe from being backstage at the symphony rehearsals that my parents would be at and listening to the oboe player talk shit about the bassoon player, which is basically, like, a lot of my memories of being around the orchestral scene.

[Kat Dennings]

Sure. Holy shit.

[Kristen]

Yeah. It was just in that moment that I was like, wait a second, I like this. Like, it was the first time in my life where I was like, wait, I like this. I can do it. And, like, I'm like, wait a second, I like this. Anyways, so I now I don't really play classical music, like, at all anymore, but the fiddle is a huge part of my life and expression. And I also am, like, a songwriter now and I play in bands. And, like, most of the music that I make is rooted in improvisation and also rooted in folk music. And, yeah, that experience really changed my life for me. Like, the more universal lesson within this is that it just took me so long to realize that, like, what I like is something that I can feel within my body. It's not something that I should look externally towards. Yeah, it just took me forever to figure out what it feels like to like something. And now that I know what it feels like, I feel like I'm constantly, like, enjoying trying to figure out that muscle.

[Kat Dennings]

Holy.

[Kristen]

I know what it feels like now. And so it's a little bit easier to go after not just within my musical life, but in my somatic experience, in the friends that I make, in the community that I make, in the food that I eat, in the values that I share with others. Yeah, all of that is, like, you know, interrelated. So anyways, I hope that for listeners, they can kind of use this as an opportunity to meditate on, like, what it feels like when you actually like something, and then how good it feels to actually pursue that once you know what it is.

[Kat Dennings]

Dude. It's so fucking profound, Carolyn. When I talked to Alex the other day, he talked about how much of an inspiration you are to him in sort of listening to and being in conversation about what your body and being tells you about what you want or how you feel or what you need. And that is so fucking cool to hear this origin story or this significant moment of sort of developing or deepening that relationship where you're like, I know what I like, or, I know what I want, and I can feel it now. I similarly am very inspired myself. I think this thing that came up in your story kind of, like, hit me like a ton of bricks. When you were saying with the classical music, you. You knew, like, I don't love this thing or maybe even like it, but I'm sort of. I don't know if you would say you were trusting the adults around you to sort of point you in a good direction or whatnot, but it sounds like there was not the intrinsic compass or engine, but that it was looking to the adults around you or the institutions and sort of being like, okay, well, this is what they're saying I should do, so I'll do that.

[Kristen]

Yeah. And, like, to be fair to the adults in the room.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

How would they know what I wanted if I didn't know what I wanted? You know, I think they were doing the best with the information that they had as well.

[Kat Dennings]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Kristen]

But I will say that the fiddle is certainly not for everybody. Like, there's not. I don't expect everybody to be, like, interested in fiddle music or country music or folk music or anything like that. Like, I think, think, you know, there's all kinds of history that makes that, like, very understandable.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But what I will say is that I've now been able to experience the connective and healing and, like, very progressive power of living in community. And niche begets community.

[Kat Dennings]

Totally.

[Kristen]

I will say that that's also something that I've really learned from being within the world of fiddle. And you can find your niche. You know what I mean? So it's like, you might not give a shit about fiddle, and, in fact, I bet you don't. But, like, maybe you're into vintage cars. Maybe you're into, like, hand embroidery. Maybe you're into growing calla lilies. Maybe you're into, you know, whatever. Like, whatever it is. Like, you can inventory your life and go, what is a thing That I like. And then you can find community within that. And it's an additional step of importance in regards to like just your own experience. Because living in community is how, at least for me, like, it's kind of the. One of the only pieces of evidence I've witnessed that is like an anti fascist force amongst us. Right. And like, we live in like a super lonely society.

[Kat Dennings]

Fucking A, right.

[Kristen]

We are super atomized from each other. We don't know our neighbors. Our intrinsic communities have been fractured. And so one way to kind of start stitching that back together, not in like a conservative, like, oh, we need like, you know, whole families type of way, but like, we can create community by looking for niche. And often, like arts have a lot of built in community already built out. So, like, I would encourage people to like get into artistic practices, but it doesn't have to be art. Like it could be. It could really be anything. But being in community is incredibly important right now.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristen]

And I hope that people are able to start looking inward, figuring out what they like and then building community out around them.

[Kat Dennings]

Carolyn, you are so speaking my language right now. I am a firm believer in the idea that there is widespread suffering in our culture right now from the alienation and isolation that is so common and that there are so many professionals. Profound benefits to having a warm, inviting community where collaboration is welcome and there are shared interests and creative pursuits.

[Kristen]

Exactly.

[Kat Dennings]

But yeah, this part of your story where at Fiddle Camp there were all these people that felt inviting and there was this space for collaboration and improvisation and helping to direct in some way the thing that you were all doing.

[Kristen]

Right?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah, that. That really spoke to me. I almost had like an embodied reaction and recognition of what that's like and what a deeply gratifying and comfortable and energizing feeling that is to find that. It's amazing.

[Kristen]

Yes.

[Kat Dennings]

There's nothing like it. There is nothing like that.

[Kristen]

Right, right.

[Kat Dennings]

I love that. I really love that. How close are we to your go time?

[Kristen]

I probably got like 10 more minutes.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay, cool. Okay. The thing I would most like to ask is it really struck me at that part when you were in Tanzania and it sounded like seeing sort of folk music happen where people were very connected to the music that they were making and sort of like the locality, like history, lineage of it or something. I don't know if that's exactly how you would phrase it.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

And it sounded like you contrasted that with your own experience with classical music that didn't feel that way.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah. My question is, like, I Wonder if through the fiddle or through anything else in your sort of relationship to music that that's developed since. Has that sense sort of struck you of, like, a personal connection in some way that's like, related to your history or where you've come from or something that reminds you of that connection to the folks in Tanzania playing their folk music?

[Kristen]

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, when I was in Tanzania, like, I got to be witness to this whole preservation. And it's not just preservation for preservation's sake. It's preservation of this folk music and these languages and this traditionality so that it can continue to be a living tradition. You know, it's interesting because East Africa has a huge history of colonization. And the university that I was there at, obviously, you know, it's like an English speaking university. So there's like some colonial elements there. And even the fact that I was there and the Fulbright thing, there's colonial elements to all of this. We were very much in conversation about that while I was there and continue to be. So I'm not unaware of that, but also just witnessing that and realizing that, okay, the music that I am seeing, the music that is being preserved, the music that is being held in import is related to these people's lived experiences and also their ancestry. And as I came back and I started thinking more about, like, okay, this has been a process, like, over the last, like, decade. It's taken a long time, but I realized that, like, me engaging in the folk music of the United States.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

That is also me grappling with the history of, like, being American. Right. With all of its, like, warts and bumps and all of its issues. Right?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

And like, folk music is not just like some hick went down to the river and played the fiddle and then that's the end of the story. Like, it's like a lot of the famous songs are kind of like, you know, these reductions of, like, intellect. And like, there's this kind of like, country bumpkin attitude that I think people mistake folk music as being. But, like, folk music has a deep lineage of labor songs, has a deep lineage of grappling with race and misogyny and, you know, not necessarily always coming out on the right side of history on it.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But they're grappling with it, you know, and also there are all of these incredible songs about environmentalism and, like, relating to our environment. And, you know, one of my favorite folk songs is called Black Waters, which is all about, like, the environment being destroyed by mining in Kentucky. Yeah. So for me, getting into the fiddle was one way of somatically getting interested in, like, what actually interests me in music. And then from there I realized, oh, this is much deeper than just like, me enjoying what I'm playing. It's that I can plug in to what not just the people around me currently are thinking about and feeling. It's a way to plug into what all of these people, for decades and centuries, have been thinking about and dealing with.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

And I have a relationship with like, my grandparents, but, like, I don't have any clue what any of my ancestors were doing before that other than like, I know they were like, sort of in the south. And I know that, you know, it's like, probably involves like a lot of like the, the rough things that like white Southerners would have been doing in the 19th century.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But I don't really have any, like, concept of like, ancestry within my own life, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Yep, same.

[Kristen]

And so to be able to plug into the ancestry of folk music is one way for me to be like, okay, good, bad, ugly, all of that. I am trying to navigate where I am in being. Carolyn Kendrick, in the year 2024, living in the United States.

[Kat Dennings]

Wow. Wow. So it's sort of. It sounds like to some degree like there is a sort of rich conversation.

[Kristen]

Yes.

[Kat Dennings]

With the past and the. The history of this music.

[Kristen]

Right. Yeah. And it's also like a looking back and looking forward. You know, like, historians are not learning about history simply because they care about history. They're learning about history, history so that we can figure out how we want to put our best foot forward. Moving forward. Right, Right. Like, it's not just like a backward looking thing. Like, I don't only care about these songs from the 19th century or 18th century or even earlier. Like, I just recorded a song that's is probably from the 12th century recently. And like, I don't care about those just because they're old. I care about them because, like, they carry these human messages and. And humans have for a long time been grappling with a lot of the same questions. How do we love? How do we fight? How do we move forward? Who do we want to be? Who do we want our children to be? Those kind of questions. And I care about these songs and I care about folk music and I care about the fiddle because it's a way for me to look forward and be like, how can I bring my values into what's left of my life? And also what I bring forward with the people I affect and the communities I create, and then eventually my kids and grandkids and et cetera, et cetera.

[Kat Dennings]

Right. Not interested. Just because it's a historical curiosity. But we're still here, and we're gonna keep doing all this stuff, so it's sort of a tool for learning how we can do all that stuff. Good.

[Kristen]

Yeah. Which is, I think, also what was kind of the missing element for me in classical music. Because there's all this reverence for history and for what all of these old men wrote, you know, like, a gazillion years ago. And, like, it's interesting because, like, I still care about that, but I just don't care about their story, even though I think their stories are interesting, too. But in classical music, I internalized the message, which is not entirely true, that just because it was old is worth caring about.

[Kat Dennings]

Totally.

[Kristen]

And there was never any conversation about, like, why it was worth preserving and why it was worth, you know, being part of our everyday life. I'm like, well, why am I playing Mozart when Britney's Spears is on the radio? You know? Like, and. And, like, I think that that was, like, to the detriment. Like, I think that there's a missed opportunity there. And I will say that, like, I've been so out of the classical community for long enough that I have no. These conversations very well might be happening.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

These days, and I'm just not part of it.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Because I decoupled so hard.

[Kat Dennings]

Okay.

[Kristen]

But, like, it's interesting that, like, I found myself in, like, a traditionalist, conservative. I've transferred myself from one traditionalist, conservative musical lineage, and I took it out, and then I am now in, like, a traditionalist, progressive lineage, you know, where it's like, almost all of the folk musicians I know are, like, leftists and, like, very politically activated people who are, like, in conversation with what it means to be the link in the chain, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah. It seems really significant, too, to me maybe, that, like, improvisation is welcome.

[Kristen]

Yes.

[Kat Dennings]

Like, moving from the classical world to folk, where it's like, yo, you want to do something different or change this or express yourself or, like, move to somewhere slightly different, like, that's welcome. As opposed to in the classical school, where it's like, we revere this antiquated thing and, like, don't change it.

[Kristen]

Right. Exactly. It's like, for me, at least, I was learning more about replication rather than interpretation.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

And I think once you get, like, more advanced in the world of classical music and orchestral music, like, you do start getting into interpretation. But it's like, I was part of the scene for upwards of 20 years.

[Kat Dennings]

Long time.

[Kristen]

And I, I had like barely grazed the surface of what interpretation meant.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

By the time I was just like so sick of it that I was like, I gotta do something else, you know.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh my God. And then you found it.

[Kristen]

And then I found it. Yeah. And you know, and also like, my relationship with the instrument, the fiddle these days is still pretty fraught. Like, I do play the fiddle constantly and like, I'm very involved in like bluegrass and old time and country scenes and folk music generally.

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

But like, I go through big phases where I'm like, I don't actually really want to play the fiddle these days. I'm just going to play guitar for a few months. Or like I'm just going to songwrite. Or I'm like, I'm just going to do. I've been playing the drums a lot lately. Like, you didn't actually see the drums like in my back there.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh yeah, look at them right there.

[Kristen]

And I'm trying to respect my desires there and not be so fervent about, oh, I have to keep playing the fiddle just because it's blah, blah, blah. I try to be really conscientious of like, okay, what do I want to be doing right now? And usually it's like, well, I'm in the mood to write a song today, so that's what I'm going to do. Or it's like, I'm in the mood to learn an old time tune from North Carolina today, so that's what I'm gonna do. Or I'm in the mood to transcribe whatever a Paul Simon song. Like, it's just like, I. I really try to be like desire oriented within my musical life now as opposed to being like, actually I even just saw like a TikTok come up on my. I see stuff like this all the time where it's like, well, if you wanna be a musician, you have to practice every day. You have to practice three hours a day, you have to do. And there's all these like rules that people say, you know, and it's true. Like if you want to play music, like, it's probably best if you do it often. But like, I think saying things like you have to practice three hours a day or an hour a day or 15 minutes, like all of these rules, it detaches you from desire, right?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

It's like, well, now it's an obligation and if you. I don't know how to do this exactly. But I think if you try to teach Kids how to, like, get in touch with, like, well, what do you want to do? What would be fun right now?

[Kat Dennings]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And decouple it from obligation. It'll probably beget organic inspiration more so than the obligation.

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, my God. Yes. Carolyn, you have just spoke to one of my most impassioned beliefs, which is about finding more ways to encourage in young people intrinsic motivation to encourage them to believe in themselves and trust themselves and find their own interests in all areas of life. It's one of the most salient parts of my own youth, looking back. And I mean, still now, I was always being told what to do and how to do it. And that led me to sort of be always looking outside of myself to determine what direction to go in or what I should think think or what I should believe. And it's really tragic. I've had to work hard as an adult to sort of cultivate and build up that trust in myself and even, like, knowing what I want. That's so sad. And I want for young people so much to know what they want and know what they feel and to be able to trust themselves and choose their own way. Yeah, I really want that. And I think it's possible.

[Kristen]

Right. And I think that there's like this fear often that it's like, well, if kids don't know what they want to do or if they're not old enough to like, quite have that muscle, like, I didn't have that muscle for a long time.

[Kat Dennings]

Right.

[Kristen]

But I was also never asked to develop that muscle, I don't think.

[Kat Dennings]

Exactly. Exactly. I bet by the time that you had language, it was pretty drilled in that, like, the adults around you will make your decisions for you. And there's not a lot of intentional cultivating of the intrinsic motivation muscle right from the get go.

[Kristen]

Exactly. And I think about any time I had free time, I was doing something creative, you know, like, I had journals, I was drawing. I was like, you know, playing with my dolls, creating stories. I was writing plays, you know, so it's like, I think there's a fear with parents that, like, well, if I just let my kid do whatever they want, they're just gonna, like, watch Disney Channel all day or whatever. Or at least that's what I think that was like, the fear for. They're probably not worried about Disney Channel these days, but. But like, you know, now they're like, oh, well, my kid's just gonna, like, watch TikTok all day or whatever.

[Kat Dennings]

Well, fuck off all day.

[Kristen]

Yeah, but that's like a different conversation Than like, giving them space and time to get into what their organic desires are, you know?

[Kat Dennings]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Kristen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

Well, I'm so glad you ended up where you did that. You are now continuing to cultivate this ability to listen to yourself and to understand what you want and go after it.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

That's a happy ending.

[Kristen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

Is there anything else you'd like to say that you didn't get a chance to say?

[Kristen]

Well, if you're listening to this, I hope you have some time to get into your organic desires today.

[Kat Dennings]

Yes.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[Kat Dennings]

That is so cool. Carolyn. I am going to take these lessons and these reflections with me into my future and how I relate to myself and how I relate to the young people that are in my life. This is another of Carolyn's songs in the background now. It's beautiful. Listen. Right, that's fucking good. Carolyn's playing the fiddle. Listen. I think that's a fiddle. Whatever it is, it sounds great. There's a whole album full of these things waiting for you. It's amazing. Who knew the world was so bountiful and generous to its inhabitants? It's peaceful and calm and beautiful, but it's so fucking good that you are going to have a raucously good time listening to it. Do yourselves a favor. Go get each machine. Go. I'll wait. Okay. You don't have to go now, but go soon, because you don't want to live the rest of your life in the misery of not having this album in your ears. You don't want to suffer anymore through this life devoid of Carolyn's album. So go listen to it. You can get it anywhere you get music, really. But I strongly encourage you to listen on Bandcamp, where they are much more fair and generous in compensating their artists, the people who put their life, blood, and energy into making art in a way that just doesn't happen on stranger platforms. It's awful, but maybe even better than Bandcamp is. You can buy a physical copy of Carolyn's album and you are gonna get a zine. An old school, brilliantly made, legit zine that is all inspired by Carolyn's time researching the Satanic Panic. That's neat and interesting and unusual and creative, and I love it. I want more zines in my life. So this is really great news. This is fantastic news. This is the best news so far. And listen to Carolyn's shows. You're Wrong about is my favorite show on the planet. It's mind blowing. You are not going to believe it. The host, Sarah Marshall is like the most charming and funny person I've ever heard speak. Her co host on you are Good is Alex Steed. You are going to hear him on this show very soon. He is an absolute fucking delight and I just cannot recommend highly enough these two podcasts. You're wrong about and you are good. You can follow Carolyn Kendrick Carolyn Kendrick on social media. You can go to Carolyn Kendrick Kendrick.com There are a lot of ways to engage with the brilliant content that Carolyn makes. Oh my God folks, I am so lucky to have this job and I only can do it because of you. I know everyone says thanks for listening and all that, but I am seriously indebted to you in a way that is beyond expression through words or even body language or anything. I don't know most of you, so I can't really express it in any form other than to continue to try to make good shows and tell you, though it falls incredibly short, how grateful I am tomorrow. Who knows, it could be a doozy. It could be the best day of your life. We just don't know but today is the day Take a Godamn risk.

[Kristen]

This world is just a game God will not forget the one who sings his name Leela Feela this life is just a play don't just say don't know and don't no don't say feela this world is just a game Winners lose and losers game is still the same feel this world is just a game God will not forget the one he sings his name Sa.