Lights Off, Pants Down

Summary

RISK! Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Lights Off, Pants Down
Air Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Kevin Allison
Guest/Storyteller: David Zelnick
Theme: Coming-of-age, sexual awakening, and gay culture in early 1990s New York City

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Episode Overview

This episode of RISK! features a candid, vulnerable, and humorous conversation between host Kevin Allison and storyteller David Zelnick. The central theme revolves around gay sexual culture in New York City before the advent of dating apps—specifically, recounting formative, awkward, and transformative experiences in the bars and backrooms of the East Village during the AIDS crisis. Through raw storytelling and honest dialogue, Kevin and David explore how fear, invisibility, community, and desire shaped their identities and sex lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Gay New York in the Early '90s

• Background:
  Kevin and David both arrived in New York after the worst of the AIDS crisis but before life-saving treatments became widespread.
• Generational Experience:
  They describe belonging to a “micro generation” caught between two eras—still deeply affected by the anxiety and stigma of HIV/AIDS.
• Emotional Landscape:
  “You know the facts of it, but just the emotional temperature of it...” (David, 05:09)
  —Living with persistent fear, anxiety, and shame related to HIV.
• Invisibility & Isolation:
  Before apps and social media, queer people experienced both exhilarating freedom and profound loneliness in the city.

2. Vulnerability & Insecurity in Queer Spaces

• Bar Culture:
  David reflects on feeling unseen and “hugging the wall,” struggling with body image and social awkwardness.
• Desire for Belonging:
  Observing others hook up, he practiced “not being jealous and practice grace… I celebrate you, I bless you” (David, 07:11), trying to find his place in the scene.

3. A Transformative Night in the Backroom

• The 'Crowbar' Experience:
  David recounts his first time in a “backroom” (a dark, semi-public space in a gay bar for sexual encounters).
• Liberation through Anonymity:
  “For the first time in a gay space, I felt very free, and I felt very sexual. And it was because it didn't matter how I looked.” (David, 09:37)
• Overcoming Fear:
  Despite initial euphoria, old anxieties about HIV resurface during a sexual encounter (“Can people get AIDS from getting a blowjob?... I'm sorry, I think I'm messing this up.” —David, 11:36)
• A Life-Changing Realization:
  The experience leads to an internal shift: “I had made myself such the object of, ‘Will people look at me?’...I am allowed to look.” (David, 15:10)

4. Navigating Sexuality and Self-Discovery

• Shifting Sexual Norms:
  Fear of HIV shaped what was possible or “acceptable”; bottoming felt terrifying.
• Connection Beyond Sex:
  David needed more than anonymity—he craved some basic connection (“I like to talk, ask people who they are…” —David, 17:29)
• Romanticization & Stigma:
  Although such spaces were demonized, both see a certain romance: “Desire is untethered from how you feel you look… there's something beautiful there.” (David, 17:52)

5. Changing Landscapes: Grindr, Labels, and Abundance

• From Scarcity to Bounty:
  Then: Few spaces, fewer chances.
  Now: Sexual and social options are abundant, but people are more “disposable.” (David, 36:05)
• Impact of Grindr & Hookup Apps:
  “People got so stuck on labels. People were either 100% top or 100% bottom…” (Kevin, 33:07)
• Pushback & Inclusivity:
  Despite issues, the current culture embraces more sexual diversity and conversation around consent, desire, and identity.

6. Generational Reflections and Self-Acceptance

• The Lasting Shadow of AIDS:
  “Like, a tree grows around a rock or a fence… that’s what the fear of AIDS was for my sexuality.” (David, 38:15)
• Intergenerational Learning:
  Kevin laments how his generation missed mentorship due to widespread loss.
• Growth Over Time:
  Sexual experimentation and identity can shift, even after 40. “Whatever story you have of ‘this is how sex works’... new things could open up for you.” (Kevin, 31:27)
• Acceptance of the Self:
  Both reflect on wishing they could assure their younger selves: “You're gonna meet so many hot people... you're gonna be loved.” (David, 41:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Temperature:
  “The 3:00am calls of like, I had a paper cut and I hooked up with someone and am I gonna die? Just the relentlessness of the fear.”
  —David Zelnick (05:09)

• Feeling Unseen:
  “So often when I walked down the street, I would look down at my feet and keep my body closed off… you could feel invisible.”
  —David Zelnick (05:56)

• Transformation in the Dark Room:
  “I was expecting the universe would change walking in…instead of feeling terrified… I felt very free, and I felt very sexual.”
  —David Zelnick (09:37)

• Permission to Look:
  “I had made myself such the object of, will people look at me?... Starting that night, I remember having this mantra in my head being like, ‘I am allowed to look. I am allowed to look.’”
  —David Zelnick (15:10)

• About Sexual Experimentation:
  “Whatever story you have of ‘this is how sex works’...there’s always the chance that you could experiment and… entirely new things could open up for you.”
  —Kevin Allison (31:27)

• On the Past & Scarcity:
  “The biggest difference to me now is that we live in a time of bounty... back then, we lived in such scarcity.”
  —David Zelnick (36:05)

• On Aging & Self-Image:
  “I was always kind of a daddy trapped in a twink's body back then.”
  —Kevin Allison (41:13)

• Enduring Impact of Trauma:
  “I feel like… the fear of AIDS was for my sexuality. Like, it just grew up around it... for me, it will always be there.”
  —David Zelnick (38:13)

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Key Moments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:25 | Kevin introduces David and story premise | | 05:04 | Discussion of AIDS crisis and emotional climate | | 07:11 | David on loneliness and trying to “practice grace” | | 08:12 | ‘Crowbar’ and 1984 Night: reclaiming joy through dance | | 09:37 | First time in the backroom—liberation and sexual discovery | | 11:36 | David freezes up, fears of HIV during sex in the backroom | | 15:10 | “I am allowed to look”—personal realization about visibility | | 17:29 | The need for talk and connection, not just anonymous sex | | 33:07 | Kevin on hookup apps and rise of sexual “boxes and labels” | | 36:05 | From scarcity to abundance: then vs. now | | 38:13 | AIDS trauma enduring in identity (“tree growing around a rock”) | | 41:00 | Reflections on self-acceptance and wishing well for younger self | | 42:09 | Kevin: still feeling like an outsider, even among “freaks” | | 44:32 | Value of private, intimate connections versus group settings |

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Tone & Language

• The episode is confessional, intimate, and laced with humor.
• Dialogues are unguarded, switching quickly between earnestness, nostalgia, self-deprecation, and playful banter.
• Both speakers use queerness, sex, and vulnerability as vehicles for wisdom and wit.

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Concluding Themes

• Sexual spaces and rituals serve as crucibles for self-discovery and self-acceptance.
• Trauma and societal fear shape but do not define queer identity and sexuality.
• The evolution from scarcity to abundance in queer culture has brought both freedom and new challenges.
• The importance of intergenerational learning, empathy, and celebrating progress—while honoring the pain of the past.

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“The place I feared most...made me feel seen and made me feel brave. That felt like a life-changing night.”
— David Zelnick (16:55)

"Whenever you own what you really feel, the more I found that you do find people who are like, ‘Oh, yeah, I like that.’"
— Kevin Allison (35:17)

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For Further Listening

• David Zelnick’s Stories: Find more of his work on his YouTube channel and his musical podcast “Loveville High.”
• Kevin Allison’s Storytelling Workshops: See risk-show.com for more info.

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Note: Ad sections have been omitted in accordance with guidelines.

Transcript

[Kevin Allison]

On this episode of Risk, you'll hear.

[David Zelnick]

He gets on his knees, I can't believe I'm telling all this.

[Kevin Allison]

And you'll hear the first thing I'd ever said to this guy was like, can I get your number? He couldn't think of what to say at first, but then he said, oh, it's in Spanish. And me on the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share.

[David Zelnick]

Something special is happening.

[Kevin Allison]

Special.

[David Zelnick]

Sure.

[Kevin Allison]

Hello folks, this is Risk. I'm Kevin Allison, and this is one of our conversation story episodes where someone tells me a story and we chat about it. We're calling this episode Lights Off, Pants Down. Today. It's a story from David Zelnick that he told me about going to gay bars and clubs in New York in the early 90s, which is where and how he and I first met. I'll say more about David later, but don't miss his other phenomenal stories on his YouTube channel at David Zelnick, 1946 now let's take a quick break and then we'll hear David's story.

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[David Zelnick]

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[Kevin Allison]

Let's get them over with.

[David Zelnick]

We're back.

[Kevin Allison]

Now. Here I am with David Zelnick with his story. Allowed to look. Every now and then I have to remind people, hey, I'm just like a creative person. I like, really don't know. Gay New York City in the 90s in the east vill when we did meet. Right. Is that true?

[David Zelnick]

Yeah, just sort of pre story that I imagine is the setting for this story is Boiler Room. It's.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[David Zelnick]

You know, it's.

[Kevin Allison]

Yes, yes, yes.

[David Zelnick]

Yeah. My first time doing a story and someone said it was great to hear a queer elder talk about New York in the 90s. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm old.

[Kevin Allison]

I know when people say something like that, I'm more grateful than not. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[David Zelnick]

I mean, I think you and I are part of the same micro generation too, that came to the city after the worst of the fear and the death of the AIDS crisis. And yet we were still inside of it so clearly. Like, it affected everything. And that was before the protease inhibitors. It was when death felt so certain. And it felt like it would be doubly embarrassing to contract HIV at that point, because it's like, no. And like, if you get it, you did something wrong and you were stupid.

[Kevin Allison]

Absolutely.

[David Zelnick]

I hit puberty in 1983, so that was being like, oh, I'm gay. And also the COVID of Newsweek is like, gay plague. 50% of New York gays have HIV. And I moved here in 1989, and I worry almost about talking about it, but at the same time, it's so hard for younger people to. They know the facts of it, but just the emotional temperature of it. You know, the 3:00am calls of like, I had a paper cut and I hooked up with someone and am I gonna die? Just the relentlessness of the fear. 50% of the people you were cruising had it. And if you didn't do everything exactly right, you might get it too. It's a very, very different world.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[David Zelnick]

We were in the after times, you know, like the Cold war ended and we'd lived through Reagan, Bush, and now it seems like the before, before, before times. And it's because there was no Internet and there were no apps, and so you could be so alone then, you know, like, you could wander the streets and no one would know where you were. You could feel invisible. And when I tell people that sometimes young people are like, oh, my God, that sounds amazing, and I'm like, yeah, but you don't know how invisible you could feel. You could feel unseen. So often when I walked down the street, I would look down, I'd look down at my feet and I'd keep my body closed off. And you know, if you went to a bar, you couldn't look at your phone and like, check out for a moment. You went to a bar and you were there and if no one was looking at you, at least for me, I'll just speak to me. It was like, I am invisible and this is one of the few spaces I can be in. And there was, there was no safe space. You either left and then what were you gonna do? You're just gonna go home? Or you stayed and hugged the wall and stared at people and hoped they would look back at you. Thinking back to this era, I was also thinking just how insecure I was. I feel like whatever cuteness resides inside me was just a mismatch for that era. You know, I was a 19 year old who was losing my hair already and I, I'm a hairy guy. And like, I don't feel socially awkward now very much. But at the time I did. And I would just go to these bars and I would drink and drink and drink. And the weird thing I would do is I would start to like space out and watch other people hooking up. And I would try to practice not being jealous and practice grace. And then in my heart I would like, bless them. I'd be like, I celebrate you, I bless you. I'm sure I was looking at them in like a really creepy way. And in retrospect, I think I was probably trying to find a role for myself, like to insert myself inside the bar somehow. But I remember just trying to wish good on everyone. And when I did meet people, I would just like, I would fail completely at it. I was not very good at it. So the story really starts at a bar called Crowbar, which I don't know if you went to.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

And it is on their 1984 night. Those nights I didn't get so drunk. Cause there was so much joy in dancing. And it felt like these songs that were from like 10 years earlier were impossibly ancient. And it felt like reclaiming in this group of gay men the like high school dances I couldn't have gone to.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, I don't think we realized at that time that actually those songs from the 80s would just be around everywhere forever.

[David Zelnick]

Right. I don't know your favorite songs, but for me it was like if Gloria Came on or the kids in America, I would just be, like, insane. And so rolling rock in hand Standing against the wall One night, I started to see all these really, really cute boys going through a curtain in the back, going through, like, a door frame or something, and I literally couldn't figure out what was happening. And then there was a moment that I realized, oh, my God, there must be a back room here. And to me, a backroom was, like, the most forbidden and fascinating thing I could ever imagine. And so I, of course, had to go in. When I went in, I don't know what I was expecting. I thought sort of it would be like that. Like, the universe would change walking in, you know, and instead of just being, like, a space, it would be like a realm. A realm, exactly. And not just like another room with a wall between it. You know, you could still hear 99 luft balloons. The first really unexpected thing that happened that night is instead of feeling terrified, which I realized I did all the time back then, for the first time in a gay space, I felt very free, and I felt very sexual. And it was because it didn't matter how I looked.

[Kevin Allison]

And so partly that was probably because, like, in a back room, the light is usually quite low.

[David Zelnick]

Oh, yeah. I think they're called dark rooms in Europe. But, like, I remember, like, there was, like, red light and blue lights. I thought it would also just be, like, some weird mirror image of the entire bar, except opposite. But it's just like a warren of little rooms. And there's, like, one big room. And so I go against the wall there, and I just start feeling things for the first time in a gay space. I'm remembering. This is gonna relate. I had a root canal once, and I was in such pain, and the dentist gave me Novocaine. And I was like, what did you give me? I feel amazing. And he's like, I didn't give you anything, except I just numbed the pain. And when you numb the pain, a rush of euphoria is what replaces it. You know, he's like, I didn't give you anything to make you feel good. I just ended the pain. And so, for me, I feel like that's what happened there. So I go up against the wall, and then there's all these other people against the wall. And I start to realize you need very little data to make choices about who is attractive and who is not attractive or who is attractive to me in a dark room. And there was a guy standing next to me, and he's a little taller. Than me. I'm a short guy. And I just saw his nose. He had a really big nose. And I was like, you know I love a big nose. I was like, this is a very cute man. And he was like pressing slightly against me and my whole body felt tingly. And then he reached and grabbed my hand and he put my hand on his crotch and his dick was hard. And I was like, oh, good, this erection is my ally here. Like, I can count on this. And then he turns to go in front of my body and he. He starts kissing me. And that feels amazing. It feels like everything I had wanted and not been allowed to have in any gay space. And then he gets on his knees. I can't believe I'm telling you all this is amazing, you know? He unbuckles my pants, my pants are up. I'm like, oh, my God, is my wallet on the floor? Like, what's gonna happen? And I was like, am I gonna be able to perform? Which I could, it turns out, in like a semi public space. But then all of a sudden, my body starts freezing up again. And all of a sudden all the fears of aids. And I'm like, wait, can people get. Can people get AIDS from getting a blowjob? Can we like, am I risky here? And he looks up and he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I'm sorry, I think I'm messing this up. And he's like, no, no, no, it's okay. But are you okay? I'm like, I just don't know the etiquette here. And then someone next to me is like, shh. And I'm like, it's like, oh, my God, I'm totally messing up my first back room. And I realized, like, whispering is actually louder than talking. Like. And so he stands up again. He's like, do you want me to stop? I'm like, no, no, no. It felt really good, but I really. I'm just scared. He's like, it's okay, you're gonna be fine. And he goes back down again. Again. I freeze up. And he looks up at me and he's like, why are you frowning? And I'm like, it's a dark room. You can't see me frowning. He's like, I can see you frowning. You're frowning. I'm like, oh, my God. I know. I'm like, I'm sorry. And so, like, he gets up, I pull my pants up. He's like, come on. And he takes my hand and we go out of the dark room. And. And then when I see him, he's, like, cute. Oh, my God. He was like, to me, out of my league. That sort of, like, Greek guy, Jewish guy, Italian guy, overlap with, like, sad eyes and just like, you know, and whatever people wore then, like, a goatee and flannel. And sometimes those bars, I feel like, look like islands of lost baseball players. Like, everyone got a, like, used baseball jersey. I'm trying to remember what was playing. It was like the safety dance or something. And in my head, I'm like, you don't have to stay. I bless you. You can, like, I bless you. Thank you. That was like, now that you've seen what I look like, it's gonna be okay. But we started dancing, and he's like, come on, let's go. And we walk back to his place in the East Village, and, you know, I start to ask where his family was from and try to impress him.

[Kevin Allison]

With, like, Right, right, right.

[David Zelnick]

Well, I'm just gonna tell you a hookup story now. I feel like these might be universal, but, you know, he had a big penis, which is nice. Like, I feel safe around one. Like, I don't always know what to do with one, but, you know, he tried to top me. And I feel like the kids can't understand just how terrifying Bottoming felt during the AIDS crisis. Like, I'm sure other people did it. You know, I don't wanna project onto everyone, but for me, it was not gonna happen. We found other things to do after we had done. I was like, did you really just hook up with me? Cause we were, like, standing next to each other in the back room, and he was like, no, no, no. I saw you dancing, and I followed you in here. It was really sweet. And then he's like, take care of yourself. Which was a lovely thing to hear, but it also sort of suggested to me, like, oh, no, I'm never gonna see him again. This feels like, you know, live well, young man. And I walked home. I lived, like, three blocks away. And as I walked home, I started looking around, and I had this realization that somehow that encounter and that room where I was invisible made me feel able to be seen. But what it really did was gave me permission to look at others. Like, I had. I had made myself such the object of. Will people look at me? Will people not look at me? And starting that night, I remember having this mantra in my head being like, I am allowed to look. I am allowed to look. And it's just very strange to me that the place I feared most and the terror of my body and of HIV and all of that in the early 90s that it took going through that kind of space to make me feel seen and make me feel brave. That felt like a life changing night. That felt like I started to walk around with my head up. It seemed so basic, but I started to see that people did look at me or, you know, not like everyone. Not like I walk down the street and ooh, everyone's looking. But like enough people, like some people. It made me feel inside the world of sense, sex and sexuality in a way that I couldn't before then. Actually never went back to that back room. I don't know if it's a place in your life, but for me, it felt so magic, I almost didn't want to touch it.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

And since then, when I've been to spaces like that, like, you know, in Berlin, I've realized that, you know, I really lucked out because I like to talk, I like to. I like to ask people who they are. Like, I don't even need that much, but I need like a little. I need slightly more than like the complete anonymity. But I also feel like there's something so beautiful about those spaces and I think they're thought of as so seedy, and I actually think there's something very romantic about them. And the fact that desire is untethered from how you feel you look, that it sort of launches into the space freely. There's something beautiful there and there's something that I remember thinking all kinds of people could learn from in these spaces that were, to me, so demonized and so terrifying. So, yeah, that is my journey in a back room and how it changed me.

[Kevin Allison]

Hey, folks, another quick break and then we'll hear the rest of David's story.

[David Zelnick]

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[Kevin Allison]

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[David Zelnick]

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[David Zelnick]

We'Re back.

[Kevin Allison]

Gosh, I'll tell you, when I was growing up in Ohio, I was just always fantasizing about being able to be a part of some sort of gay sexual culture. I remember, I think I was 7 or 8 when Time magazine had the COVID that just said the homosexuals. And it was two male hands holding. I'll never forget, like paging through that article, there was one picture from a gay bar in New York City with a go go boy dancer. And you could see a lot of his butt, his bare. But in the picture, which was rather racy for Time magazine in whatever 1977 or 78, and me just being like, that's the city that I have to move to eventually. So once I finally got to New York, I was very taken aback by how daunting it was. Two things at once for me. Daunting to all of a sudden be competing with other males. I was used to being so afraid of competition among males, everything from sports to board games. But now competing with other males for other males, right? And the weirdness of being like, okay, suddenly at 18, now I'm able to do all this and we're all able to do all. And I'm in a culture where you're able to do all this, right?

[David Zelnick]

And you don't know who to be jealous of too. And do I want to Be them? Do I want to sleep with them? Am I sad? They don't want me? Am I sad? It's freaky, the layers of gay desire in that sense.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God. It's funny that you mentioned the boiler room. I develop such mixed feelings, you know, like you said, it's just a tornado of feelings because you would walk in the door and suddenly feel a sort of freedom. Right. Suddenly feel like, oh, this is where I don't have to be masking a certain amount of masculinity. This is where I can feel free to explore different sides of my femininity and just, I don't know, experiment with being sexual in a public way or whatever. But at the same time, low self esteem is just like another big theme in my life of, oh, I'm not enough, I'm not this, that and the other. And so I had a shit ton of social anxiety. So in gay spaces. So I developed a reputation amongst my friends for Kevin will show up for about a half hour and be the life of the party. And then he will disappear. If there's a dark room, that's where he is.

[David Zelnick]

Really.

[Kevin Allison]

If there's a sex club across the street and in the boiler room had the sex club right across the street, then he'll just like head there.

[David Zelnick]

I didn't know that.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was usually only hanging out for like a half hour or whatever and then heading to a space where you didn't have to talk and you. And it was just our bodies, you know?

[David Zelnick]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

One of the funniest things was in my 30s, I started going to this sex club up in Queens and. And you were joking about the whole don't talk, don't talk thing in those darkroom sorts of spaces, Right. There was a fella that I would hook up with literally every time I went to this sex club in Queens, which was like once a week on the weekends, I'd go there and myself and this fella who was a Latino guy. And after a while I was like, this is a waste of money and travel time. Like, why don't I just give my number and we can just get together at one of our places. So, like, I don't know, it was probably the 15th time we'd hooked up at this sex club. And I whispered to him. Yeah, I said the first thing I'd ever said to this guy was like, can I get your number? And he looked like a deer in the headlights.

[David Zelnick]

Oh, he's probably married to this.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh my God. Words have been Exchanged here. And his response to me, he couldn't think of what to say at first, but then he said, oh, it's in Spanish.

[David Zelnick]

Oh my God, that's amazing. Yeah. I felt like what I had to offer was my words. And so it was just such a surprise to feel. To feel my body unleashed that way. What I'm curious for you is, for me, the extra ingredient of the early 90s was the fear of HIV. And, you know, I also. I started shortly after this happened. I started working for this fundraiser who's gay and was doing a lot of gay causes. So that's the first time I really met a lot of people with hiv. And I remember, you know, there's so many hot people. I actually remember thinking, you know, we were all gonna get it. But then secretly under that, I thought, no, it's the hot ones who are gonna get it. And it's a terrible thought, but I was like, I'm just not good looking enough to like have to worry. But like, everyone hot is gonna get it. And so there was this attraction to these guys who I'd meet who were amazing. And then my abject terror of contracting hiv, which I think at the time was both irrational and. Makes sense.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

And so they seemed like there was this weird sparkle around them. Cause they were so brave to me and yet so doomed. Also just like hot, normal humans who I wanted to date. I remember I met a guy at a conference who told me he had AIDS and wanted to go on dates. And I sort of wanted to too, but he also had a cough and his nose was running all the time. And I just was terrified. I was just terrified.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

I mean, also as a kid, in retrospect, I was like 23. I was 24 and dealing with so many other issues too. But did you have any of those fears? Did those spaces scare you the way they scared me?

[Kevin Allison]

One of the great mysteries of my life, especially in my 40s and 50s, it's like I've just embraced. Oh, you just have zero interest in fucking. But the big mystery is, is it nurture or nature? Because when I was in the second grade, so about eight years old, Eddie Murphy had come out with his comedy album Raw. Yes. With the track Faggots on it, I think it was called. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course that, you know, that was brutal. Terribly homophobic. And as an 8 year old, I was totally tracking. Wait a minute, he is wearing skin tight red leather, right? And like literally like kind of pushing his butt around on stage as he's as he's doing this performance and it's like, okay, what's really going on here? Anyway, anyway, anyway, like I said, I was hypersexual from day one. The woman next door had to tell my mom, both our kids are in diapers and your son is constantly trying to get my kid's diaper off. Yeah, yeah, like it was, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, it was just always obsessed with boys butts and just like, you know how I wanted to stick my face in there and stick my fingers in there and all this stuff. So when Eddie Murphy's Raw came out and everyone was talking about it on the playground in second grade, one fellow said, oh, I'll tell you what those homosexuals do. I was like, oh, this'll be fascinating because, you know, I'm so, I'm so interested in. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he said, they stick their penises in each other's butts. And I remember at 8 thinking, oh, they do. Maybe I don't belong. Like, that's not. That hasn't occurred to me as like the thing I want to do to the butt. So I was comfortable going into dark rooms and backrooms, sex clubs and all that and doing side stuff, doing, you know, rimming, yada yada. There was one occasion when I was at one of those, it was one of those like buddy booth kinds of places where I don't know what happened. I don't think I was drunk or high or anything like that. I think it was like the middle of an afternoon. But then again, you know, in the 90s and my 20s, you know, I would have sex anywhere and everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did fuck a guy and I did fuck him without a condom briefly.

[David Zelnick]

Right?

[Kevin Allison]

And I remember just being consumed by.

[David Zelnick]

Right, the terror.

[Kevin Allison]

What the fuck did you just do? What sort of self destructive thing was that? Where did your brain go? And I think that that little experiment of after all those years of just thinking, oh, that's okay, I don't need to do that. And then all of a sudden like being like, oh, I can do this, I am doing this. Wait, what the fuck?

[David Zelnick]

And did you enjoy it? Were you like, this is amazing, or.

[Kevin Allison]

Were you like, I don't think I could completely enjoy it because a part of me was like, what is this self destructive thing that's happening here? You know what I mean? Because of the lack of a condom. And that might have scared the bejesus out of for a while and just kept me on the straight and narrow of avoiding fucking as well, right. So I've always wondered, if AIDS had not been such a big worry of ours at that time, might I have developed into more of a top? But, you know, it's fascinating. Like, I was talking to someone just yesterday about how it never ceases to amaze me that you hear people talking about their sexuality and romance. You always hear people putting things into boxes or here is the story of how my sexuality works or what I'm into, or yada, yada, yada. Right.

[David Zelnick]

Are these men, though, or male identifying people?

[Kevin Allison]

No, I'm talking about literally everyone in the human race.

[David Zelnick]

Oh. Cause I find men are so into more into boxes or at least, you know, Great. Yeah.

[Kevin Allison]

Well, no, I think I hear it from women or people. Female at birth, too. In my own life, I have found over and over and especially shocked me in my 40s. When you hit your 40s, you figure, okay, my sexual development is over. I've had all the kinds of romance and sex that are possible. And that was just like, not true. Way, way, way, way, way not true. In fact, in my 40s was when I first went to a kink camp. And all of a sudden, this whole new, like, I ended up having to go to a sex therapist. I was so overwhelmed with being like, holy shit. I had no idea I would ever be. I'm now into. So I always try to remind myself, whatever story you have of this is how sex works. This is how men are, this is how women. There's always the chance that you could experiment. And because you're with a different person or it's a different time in your life, or it's a slightly different way that you're doing it, that entirely new things could open up for you.

[David Zelnick]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think of myself as like, pretty gay. And I was someone who, at age 5, knew I was gay as well. And I did sleep with a woman twice in college. I loved it. I was like, this is crazy. And it turns out what I really like are huge breasts. I had this out of town friend, cockney guy, straight guy. He wanted to go to private eyes across the street.

[Kevin Allison]

Where women strip, right?

[David Zelnick]

Yeah, women strip and give lap dances. And he kept buying me lap dances. So the first was this Czech woman, Slovak, I don't know, very small boobs. Did a dance. I wasn't getting hard and I was like apologizing. I was like, I've been to Prague. I tried to remember any Czech I knew. And I was like, I'm so sorry. You're doing a great dance. I'm a gay guy. That's why I'm not getting hard. But you're doing a great job.

[Kevin Allison]

So funny.

[David Zelnick]

I wanted her to feel good about herself, of course. And then the next woman. You gave me a lap dance. Enormous breasts. I'm obsessed with this nasty Italian one. And I got so hard, and I was like, oh, I'm just, like, a boobs guy. I'm a boobs guy. I'm a boobs man. Who knew? I like big things. I'm greedy.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It's just so. Of course, Grindr changed everything.

[David Zelnick]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

One thing I'm extraordinarily grateful for is that there was this period after Grindr had been around for a few years where things became so binary. People got so stuck on labels.

[David Zelnick]

Oh, right. Like a menu.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. Like. And it was really, like. It was millennials. It was millennials discovering millennial gay guys discovering their sexuality and needing to define it somehow in a way that very brief and clear and to the point. Because it's on your Grindr profile. Right? And so everyone was either 100% top or 100% bottom. And it started to be like, no, no, you don't understand. The top is the man and the bottom is the woman. And just all this stuff where. And kink was just not.

[David Zelnick]

Oh, yeah. And all the, like, know this, know that is so gross.

[Kevin Allison]

Yes, yes, yes. People putting know this and that on their profiles.

[David Zelnick]

I love it when people say front of the line as though there'.

[Kevin Allison]

Waiting. Right. But no, I'm so thankful that, like, of course there's enormous things that are wrong and fucked up in the whole hookup apps culture now, but at least there's been a backlash against all that.

[David Zelnick]

I think so.

[Kevin Allison]

And, yeah, there's much more accept. There's inclusivity on Grindr toward people of different genders. There's total inclusivity of people who, like, are not interested in fucking. And even, like, as, like, the Dom Daddy. It sounds like you and I are similar in wanting to check in all the time that the other person is okay.

[David Zelnick]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

And to be able to kind of own, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the Dom Daddy who is very sweet, you know, and really ultimately wants to know that you're right.

[David Zelnick]

Because now I fit into a category with my beard and, like, my body hair and my age, and it's like, I can be dominant, but, you know, you gotta let me be, like, cute and sweet first. Oh, totally love the idea of walking in a room and being like, hey, yes.

[Kevin Allison]

No, totally. Like, I Think that it's exciting at this point in the evolution of sexual culture to more and more just own, you know, what you really feel and what you're most interested in now. And the more you own it, the more I found that you do find people who are like, oh, yeah, I like that. You know, like, so, you know, my grinder literally explains I don't fuck with my dick, right? And it's so funny because several years ago, especially in New York, people would insult me and belittle me for that. People would be like, oh, I prefer the real thing. And then I would, like, think of my fists and think real. Do you mean you can't handle this?

[David Zelnick]

But, you know, what you're saying makes me think back, back to the world we came from, the East Village of the early 90s. The biggest difference to me now is that we live in a time of bounty. We live in a time of plenty. And when I look back, I feel like we lived in such scarcity then. At least that's how I remember it. I remember, like, how few chances you had or how few spaces you had. And it felt like if you met someone, you had to really make it work or try to make it work, because you wouldn't know where the next person you could meet is. And now it just feels like it's a good thing. I think now it feels like there's a huge world out there and you can find your path, but there's also a little bit of a sense that people can be a little more disposable because there's always someone else. Like, I just remember being friends with people who I'd never be friends with. It was like we were gay. We saw each other at the bar, and there were only five or six or seven gay bars in the East Village. It's like. It's not like it was such a huge ecosystem.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my gosh. And also, what we were just talking about, there wasn't this whole idea of you're either this or you're either at. You met someone at the bar, and then you kind of went home and started exploring what might work between the two of you. You know, like, in this time of bounty, like you say on Grindr or whatever. Like, I just got used to, like, oh, okay, this guy really loves butts, but doesn't use his dick to fuck. That just automatically canceled me out for a lot of people. Whereas back in the day, you'd go home with someone and be like, well, okay, let's just find out some things that might Work for both of us. And of course, it didn't work all.

[David Zelnick]

The time because you weren't gonna go out again to a bar. The only other option was, I guess, a party line, which I never did. Or you watch Robin Byrd. Like, it was like you had made your choice. That was the person who was in your bed and you were gonna make it work, or your night was over.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

It's a better world now. You know, I'm very happy the young people are not scared of hiv and that it didn't warp their sexualities the way I really think it warped mine.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure.

[David Zelnick]

I sometimes feel like, you know, like, a tree grows around a rock or a fence, and then you can't remove it or else the tree will fall. I feel like that's what the fear of AIDS was for my sexuality. Like, it just grew up around it. For me, it will always be there as irrational or silly or useless. I'm not consciously afraid of it anymore. And yet there's just no way around it. There's no way around it for me.

[Kevin Allison]

You know, I also suspect that we. Our generation missed out maybe a little bit more than most generations. Generations in younger learning from older.

[David Zelnick]

Because the older.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, the older gay men, when we were in our 20s, were less going out to bars and stuff. They were dealing traumatized funerals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm one of those people who, as an older guy, tends to be attracted to younger guys. And so that whole, like, age gap, you know, there's huge pluses and huge minuses to that whole phenomena too. But I'm thankful that in the gay world, we still have some acceptance of that and how, like, I mean, one of the things I love about the age gap is I feel like I have things that I can teach and that younger folks have stuff that they can. You know what I mean? Like, this a very interesting way of learning when you're with people of different generations.

[David Zelnick]

Yeah. I mean, not to over glamorize our community, but I do think there's more. And we still have problems, but there's more crossing of age or class even, or career. Oh, gosh.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, I was always thankful for that. I was always, like, I used to say to my friends, oh, you go to the boiler room, and you might be talking one moment to, like, a prince from Arabia, and then the next moment talking to, like, a homeless guy who just took a bus here from Detroit. There was a real. And I think there still is, because now that I'm in Bangkok. You know, one of the first things you have to do is go get all your medical shit figured out.

[David Zelnick]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

And one of the things I've realized and people have advised me on this is, look, if worse comes to worse, just go to some of these LGBTQ clinics. Because even if it's adhd, men or whatever it is, like, we look out for one another, you know?

[David Zelnick]

Yeah, yeah, that's lovely. Ah, yeah, it's definitely fascinating to revisit that earlier New York for me and that earlier me, you know, like, I want to hug him and be like, oh, totally. I was like, it's going to be okay. And, like, if I could have told him, like, you're going to meet so many hot people and you're going to have great sex and you're going to be loved.

[Kevin Allison]

Like, yes, absolutely.

[David Zelnick]

And body hair won't be, like, stigmatized.

[Kevin Allison]

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. For me, it was the whole. I feel like I was always kind of a daddy trapped in a twink's body back then.

[David Zelnick]

I think we both fulfilled no fantasies of an early 20s gay guy.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Zelnick]

You know what I mean?

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my gosh. Like, I remember when Facebook was becoming super popular, and all of a sudden, you know, people were sharing photos from back in the day, and I started seeing these photos that some people had of me in my 20s, and I was like, like, wow, dude, right? You spent your entire 20s just, like, so upset about how ugly you were and poo, poo, poo, you look great.

[David Zelnick]

Oh, you can be told that so many times, but somewhere right now is a 23 year old who hates himself or herself, and they can't be told. You can't be convinced.

[Kevin Allison]

And the whole I don't belong thing, when I first did go to that kink camp in my 40s, I mean, the initial feeling was the same as going to a gay pride parade in 1988, where all of a sudden it was like. I remember we entered into the cafeteria on day one of kink camp the first time I went, and it was just like 10 minutes of wooing. It was just people being like, you know, just like, we are away. We are away from the restraints of society, and we are free.

[David Zelnick]

We're free.

[Kevin Allison]

And going from the euphoria of that to within, you know, like a half a day or so of being like, oh, but I'm the freak among the freaks. I still don't belong.

[David Zelnick]

Those old habits die hard, you know? They do.

[Kevin Allison]

They do.

[David Zelnick]

Yeah.

[Kevin Allison]

When you talked about it, Being like another realm, the dark room, the back room. Experience, like that was always so profound. The male energy, like this sort. There was always something incredibly primal about it that really felt like, oh, shit, we've been doing this since we were cavemen, you know, Like a room full of jaguars. Yes. Circles of dudes, like a hundred. Like, this goes way, way, way back. And that's a phenomena and an experience that a lot of people just will never really understand or experience. And I really treasured that, you know, that feeling of wow. I started to very much feel like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, you know, that sort of thing. Like, where there was my good boy, out in the world Persona. And then once you cross those doors, you were in the other realm, different world. It's funny that at my age, I very rarely go to those kind of places anymore. And one of the reasons is that especially with how kinky I've become and how important it is to me to be able to talk to people. You know what I mean? Like, you and I were just saying the whole, you okay thing, the one on one experience. I mean, I was so thrilled about Grindr when it came out because I was like, oh, I'm a writer right now. I don't have to look hot across the room. I can seduce with my words, like Cyrano de Bergerac. Yeah.

[David Zelnick]

I know this feeling.

[Kevin Allison]

So now I don't go as often. And I think that a lot of those sorts of spaces would not be as magical to me as back in the day, because, yeah, I do so value being in a private space with someone and just kind of building a little intimacy together. Yeah.

[David Zelnick]

And now they say that, like, the kind of group sexual energy is everywhere in New York. Like, it's not. It doesn't, like, call a siren song to me, but, you know, just the exuberance of these male spaces or people who identify as men or non binary, you know, having sex in joyous, huge ways. There was some article a few months ago, like, has New York hit peak gay sluttiness? Peak, peak, peak, peak gay sluttiness.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, I'm a writer, right? Yes. Circles of dudes like, like getting off with one another. Like, this goes way, way, way back. And yeah, this guy really loves butts, but doesn't use his dick to fuck. I don't fuck with my dick.

[David Zelnick]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

Not interested in fucking sluttiness. That hasn't occurred to me as, like, the thing I want to do to the butt. Do to the. Do to the dude. To the butt bite. Dude. To the butt dude. To the butt dude.

[David Zelnick]

To the butt dude.

[Kevin Allison]

To the butt dude.

[David Zelnick]

To the butt News I can use. Having sex.

[Kevin Allison]

Always obsessed with boys butts and just like you know how I wanted to stick my face in there and stick my fingers in there and all this stuff.

[David Zelnick]

So his dick was hard. Oh good, good.

[Kevin Allison]

Absolutely.

[David Zelnick]

Sex, sex.

[Kevin Allison]

Yes, yes, yes. And that's that. David Zelnick's solo play O Time is on May 26th at Ensemble Studio Theater in New York and you can listen to his nine episode young adult musical podcast Loveville High. Wherever you get your podcast. You can also find him on Instagram avidzelnik Folks, my latest online storytelling workshop still has a slot free, so if you want to jump in a little late, many have done so before and or if you'd just like to get news in the ongoing future about my next storytelling workshops, just email me at [e-mail] and if you want to help support Risk, which is very expensive to operate and regularly struggles to break even, consider joining our [e-mail] risk where there's so many more stories and check ins. One of our Patreon patrons, Stephanie, sent us this note with their donation thank you for making making me kinder as well as some snort laughs. And another named David wrote, I really appreciate the podcast. It's helped carry me through some hard times. Thank you Stephanie and David. We couldn't continue to do it without the financial support of our listeners. So anyone can join us or increase the amount of their [e-mail] and if you want to make a one time donation, that's at paypal me riskshow. Also, we had a great conversation pop up over at the Risk Podcast Fans discussion group on Facebook this week. People chiming in about the first ever story they remember hearing on Risk. So check that out if you can. And if you've got a story about trying something you were scared to try at first, like David in the dark room, just go to risk-show.com submissions and send us your pitch. Because folks, today's the day. Take a risk. Sam. And all the melodies in the world.

[David Zelnick]

And all the love songs too.

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