Moving Toward Democracy

Summary

Podcast Summary: RISK! Episode "Moving Toward Democracy"

Introduction

In the "Moving Toward Democracy" episode of RISK!, host Kevin Allison delves into a poignant and timely story shared by Andy Bundipadier. Set against the backdrop of the tumultuous political climate leading up to the 2024 U.S. elections, Andy's narrative intertwines personal transformation with broader societal changes, highlighting the profound impact of politics on individual lives.

Andy Bundipadier’s Background

Andy Bundipadier begins his story by recounting his upbringing in a politically aware household. Raised in a Houston suburb, Andy's father, a political science professor, instilled in him the values of American democracy from a young age. At ten years old, Andy excelled in quizzes on current events, fully embracing the household mantra: "one person, one vote" (06:33).

The 2016 Election and Personal Realization

The 2016 U.S. presidential election marked a pivotal moment for Andy, both personally and politically. Amidst the election frenzy, Andy grappled with his gender identity, realizing he was transgender. This revelation strained his marriage as he navigated the complexities of coming out to his straight husband, Raj. Their relationship reached a stalemate, with neither willing to address the transformation (06:56).

Election Night and the Trump Victory

While vacationing in Barcelona, Andy and Raj anxiously awaited the election results, hopeful for a historic win of America’s first female president. However, as the night unfolded and dawn broke, it became evident that Donald Trump had secured victory. This outcome intensified Andy's fears about the future of democracy and personal safety, prompting initial considerations of leaving the country (09:05).

Decision to Move to Canada

Faced with the rise of anti-trans legislation—662 bills targeting transgender rights in 2024—and a deteriorating political landscape, Andy and Raj decided to relocate to Canada. The looming threat of restrictive laws pushed them to reassess their safety and freedom. In May 2020, amid the COVID-19 pandemic, they formally began the process of applying for Canadian permanent residency, driven by the urgent need to protect Andy's rights and well-being (20:02).

The Moving Process and Challenges

The journey to Canada was fraught with challenges. Andy had to gather extensive documentation and navigate a two-year waiting period exacerbated by the pandemic. During this time, witnessing the rollback of Roe v. Wade and the surge of anti-LGBTQ legislation underscored the urgency of their move. Finally, in May 2023, Andy relocated to Toronto, experiencing immediate benefits such as comprehensive healthcare coverage under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. This transition alleviated the financial burdens associated with medical emergencies, a stark contrast to the precariousness he faced in the U.S. (22:52; 41:14).

Life in Canada: Relief and Continued Concerns

A year into his Canadian residency, Andy reflects on the profound sense of relief and safety Canada has provided. He contrasts his experiences with the U.S., noting the ease of accessing healthcare without exorbitant costs and the absence of immediate threats to his identity. However, he remains vigilant, aware that political shifts could alter the landscape once again. The differences in societal norms, such as the lack of active shooter drills in Canadian schools, highlight the contrasting approaches to public safety and governance (35:28; 38:46).

Personal Growth and Mental Health

Moving to Canada not only provided physical safety but also facilitated significant personal growth for Andy. He discovered that he has ADHD, a revelation that was facilitated by the supportive environment in his new home. This diagnosis and subsequent treatment have been transformative, enhancing his ability to focus and manage his emotions effectively. Andy emphasizes the importance of taking actionable steps to regain control over one's life, even amidst uncertainty and upheaval (58:13).

Reflections on Democracy and Resistance

Throughout his story, Andy offers profound insights into the nature of democracy and the rise of fascist rhetoric. He references historian Timothy Snyder’s work, advocating for the importance of recognizing and resisting fascist tendencies. Andy underscores that true democracy requires active participation and solidarity, rejecting the notion of civil debate when faced with authoritarianism. He advocates for continuous engagement through voting, community involvement, and fostering human connections as means of sustaining democratic values (46:50; 53:16; 55:27).

Conclusion: Hope and Agency

Andy concludes his narrative with a message of resilience and agency. Despite the ongoing challenges, he emphasizes the importance of personal and collective action in shaping a democratic future. His journey underscores the interplay between personal identity and political climates, advocating for proactive measures to protect and sustain democratic freedoms. Andy’s story serves as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope, illustrating the profound impact of political decisions on individual lives and the enduring strength of the human spirit in the face of adversity (58:46; 55:40).

Notable Quotes

• “One person, one vote. We are so lucky to live in a democracy.” – Andy Bundipadier (06:56)
• “Trump just reminded him of ways of talking, ways that I would say bullies and dictators talk.” – Andy Bundipadier (12:27)
• “The most important value I hold is that I want to live in a democracy where it's one person, one vote more than anything.” – Andy Bundipadier (49:12)
• “I'm opting out of this game. I'm opting out of the system. I'm not going to play it, and I'm going to move.” – Andy Bundipadier (49:12)

Final Thoughts

Andy Bundipadier’s story in this episode of RISK! offers a compelling exploration of personal identity, political unrest, and the quest for safety and democracy. Through his journey from the United States to Canada, Andy illustrates the profound ways in which political climates can shape personal lives and the enduring importance of agency and community in sustaining democratic values.

Transcript

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[Kevin Allison]

Hello folks, this is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison and this episode is a bit of a surprise. We weren't sure if we were going to drop this one this week until at the last minute, both our staff and today's Storyteller agreed that we really should. To be blunt, this one we felt should come out before election day 2024. To be even more blunt, the question of whether or not to run it came up against concerns about just how much of a free country we'll still be living in after election day 2024. All year long I was hoping that my friend Andy could share this story. Andy is trans and 2024 is the fifth consecutive record breaking year for the total number of anti trans bills that have gone up in America. It's been 662 bills this year. The MAGA movement seeks to block trans people from receiving basic health care, education, legal recognition, and the right to publicly exist. Like, you know, speaking as yourself on a podcast, there's an amazing documentary called Requiem for the American Dream. I cannot recommend this movie highly enough. Noam Chomsky shows how throughout the whole history of the United States, the essential political battle has always basically been anti democracy advocates versus pro democracy advocates. All of our rights were one when the people came together in solidarity to insist on them. We are the guardians of and protagonists for our rights, and different people might have to take those stands in different ways depending on their abilities and circumstances. So this is the second of the two conversation episodes we're running this month where the subject is what's at stake in this election. If you know someone who hasn't voted yet but still can, and you think they might benefit from hearing these conversations, please please share them. The first was called before the Terribleness of now by Ron Hart, and the second is this one today. So here is the writer, speaker and storyteller and my dear friend Andy Bundepadier with a story we call Moving Toward Democracy. So now you are in Canada. Can you take us back to where this story kind of starts for you?

[Andy Bundipadier]

I think it starts with having a political science professor dad and being raised on American democracy. I'm 10 years old and in a suburb of Houston and I'm taking quizzes on current events and outperforming the students that my dad is teaching who are in college.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And he says, I'm so proud that my kids are educated. My kids know what's going on in the world. My kids follow the news and the headlines and the lesson growing up was one person, one vote. We are so lucky to live in a democracy. So many people don't have that element of luck. And if you quizzed me on what is a democracy or what does the president do versus the vice president or the Senate or the house, as a 10 year old, I would have aced it because that was the most important thing in our household. And then I didn't think about it that much. I did my thing. I voted every election. But I think the thought of really seriously considering moving out of the country that I was raised in was in 2016. Around that time, I had come to realize that I was trans. The conversation with my very straight husband about that was very hard. You know, saying, hey, honey, I have realized that I'm a man and I have decided I'm not doing anything about that without you. And then him at the time in therapy saying, I'm not sure if I can do that. And this just being completely unresolved. So that's where we were in our relationship. Not deciding that I'm transitioning or not, not deciding whether we're divorcing or not. Just in this stalemate about. I've recognized this thing about myself. He's recognized he can't handle it. I'm not making a move, he's not making a move. Were just kind of pretending that doesn't exist and going on vacation to try to get a little breathing room. So we're in Spain with friends in Barcelona watching the election, thinking we're about to celebrate our country's first female president.

[Kevin Allison]

Right.

[Andy Bundipadier]

They're several hours ahead. So it's midnight, it's 1am, it's 3am, it's still not called. And then I'm going to bed. He's going to bed. Not even opening any celebratory anything. No snack, no cake, no champagne, no nothing. And by the time we wake up, it's clear that Trump had won. And at this point, I'm not really out to anybody. I haven't even decided if I'm going to transition, even though I've had this insight about myself.

[Kevin Allison]

Right.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And we look at each other and say, should we even go back?

[Kevin Allison]

Wow. That early in the process, considering maybe not even going back.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly. I had studied abroad in India in college. I had lived in Mexico And France as a kid. He grew up in India and came to the US for grad school. So we'd always visited different places and always thought it might be fun to live somewhere else for a while. But I had certainly never thought, oh, I would consider leaving the place I was born and raised because it's not safe.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. And how old were you at that point in 2016?

[Andy Bundipadier]

28.

[Kevin Allison]

Well, you had that going for you, you know what I mean? Like having that youthful flexibility. Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And that definitely helped. He was 38. We're 10 years apart, but I don't know. We ended up saying, well, we should probably pack our stuff. So we ended up taking the flight home to San Francisco at the time, thinking, we gotta make a plan. Like, when we get home, we're still. Even after we get off the plane, we're still not sure if we're staying. And those first couple months, you know, between when the election was called through early 2017 were about, what are the signs? How are we going to know when is the time where? Doesn't matter. What else is going on in our lives? We're dropping everything and getting out.

[Kevin Allison]

Right. Because he had gone through some real shit with India.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly.

[Kevin Allison]

He had seen India become a lot more ultra right wing and all.

[Andy Bundipadier]

There was a period in the early 90s where Hindu Muslim riots were extremely intense and it was a generalized lockdown, not like we had in Covid. But you wouldn't leave your house because that was asking to be murdered. And if you did have to leave your house, you were not going to leave with any kind of religious symbol. You don't want people to identify you as part of one group or part of the other. And Trump just reminded him of ways of talking, ways that I would say bullies and dictators talk, regardless of left or right. But somebody who is more of an autocratic form of government or supporting that kind of form. That's how they talk.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah. So you're still in the process of deciding whether or not you want to transition. Right. When you come back to San Francisco.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

And did you have conversations with friends about just having tremendous unease about Trump having become president?

[Andy Bundipadier]

Absolutely. I mean, one of the first experiences, you know, we were in a San Francisco community that was very, very close knit. And we went to this party in November where everyone is on the couch crying, not saying cheers, not saying happy birthday, not celebrating, not eating cake, just holding each other and crying, going, we never thought we'd be here. What do we do? So there was this early collective grief and then there was big protest energy, like, okay, we're going to be in the streets. We're going to be holding signs. And then there's this. How long can you sustain that kind of energy? And what do we each need to do to stay safe and to keep each other safe? And where's the line?

[Kevin Allison]

And what happened next in terms of, like, your transitioning process?

[Andy Bundipadier]

In February of 2017, Raj said, hey, honey, I think you should take testosterone. I looked at him like he was crazy. You are a straight man. We have been married for seven years, together for nine. You have very clearly said in the past that you don't want this. What are you smoking? And then he basically said, well, you know, we've talked about it. I think as much as we can possibly talk about it. We've both gone to therapy separately together. We've read up on the effects of taking tea. And the only way you're going to know if this is right for you is if you try it. So that started the process for me of actually reaching out for a doctor's appointment, but at every step, like, oh, my gosh, I don't have to go to the appointment. I don't have to go to the pharmacy. I can fill the prescription, but I don't have to take it. And at the end of it, he just. He always gets up before me. He's an early riser. So he got up one morning and brought me chai and my testosterone and said, honey, I brought you your tea.

[Kevin Allison]

Wow.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And that was the first day. So it was a strange resolution of it. You know, I wasn't going to do a damn thing, but he actually started that process. And then fast forward three months to May. I said, how are you doing? And he said, well, we don't fight about the thermostat anymore, so I think we're good.

[Kevin Allison]

And I was sad the way you were feeling heat or cold had changed completely.

[Andy Bundipadier]

I mean, I used to be cold all of the time, and then taking testosterone. I am not cold all the time anymore. Now we have alignment on the thermostat, which is a very common thing for straight couples to fight about.

[Kevin Allison]

That's funny. That's very funny. What was the next moment that the trumpification started to have an effect on how you were feeling and thinking?

[Andy Bundipadier]

I mean, I think it was constant. I think after starting t, it became, how quickly can I complete my medical transition while this is still legal? For how long am I gonna have access to hormone therapy? For how long am I gonna have access to the surgeries that I need. And I was lucky to be in California. But then it became, now we know we're doing this, let's do this on an accelerated timeline so that if, God forbid, this care goes away, I've completed the major milestones that I need to complete while I live in a state that has coverage.

[Kevin Allison]

And wasn't there a moment where you started to be concerned about the legality of your personhood under that was the.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Following year in 2018. So there was a draft, a Department of Health and Human Services memo floated from the Trump administration saying, we are going to say that the only, you know, legal or valid sex marker is sex assigned at birth. And what that would mean if that were carried out federally is any person who has ever changed their identity marker. So if your passport used to say F and now it says M or vice versa, your new passport is considered invalid. So that was floated as, you know, a possible regulation in 2018. It did not pass. But that terrified me. It was like, wait, if I change everything in all my paperwork, like changing my name, changing my gender marker, does that mean then my documents are not gonna be usable anywhere? And it didn't go through. But that was definitely a very, very scary piece of this for us.

[Kevin Allison]

Uh huh. Yeah. Was that a point at which you started focusing more on the idea of maybe moving?

[Andy Bundipadier]

Kind of. I mean, we started thinking in 2016, while we were still in Spain, should we even come back? And then it was, we at least need to pack. And then it was, well, where would we go? And let's monitor for things like Arizona has long had a papers please law where if anybody suspects you of being an illegal immigrant, then they can just ask you for proof of your legal status. So. Meaning if you're a student on a student visa, you would have to carry your student visa with you absolutely everywhere, even if you're going to the pool or going to pick up milk at the grocery store or whatever. So there were a handful of things like that where we said, if these things are passed federally, then that's our get out now. Yeah, but I think where it really, really accelerated for us was actually during COVID it was early 2020. So the 2020 general election is in full swing and Trump is starting to say the election's only fair if I win.

[Kevin Allison]

Right, right, right. He's planting that. Which he's doing again now.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly. So that rhetoric, specifically, that I am not going to accept the outcome of the results of the election unless the outcome is that I win, that's undemocratic it's un American. It's unprecedented in how our democracy is supposed to operate. And it's not something that we would ever accept from a Democratic candidate. So that specifically was taking a spidey sense for Raj. And then for me, it was, okay. In the first Trump administration, from 2016 to 2020, we're seeing someone who is not very well organized and so doesn't necessarily know how to get things done through the machinery of government.

[Kevin Allison]

Absolutely.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Trump 2.0, whether it is Trump himself or someone else from the movement, will be much more organized.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And will have learned from that first round. And so that was especially terrifying for me. So we actually started the process formally of applying for permanent residency in May of 2020.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. What a lot of people. I think when people talk about Project 2025, I think a lot of people don't understand. It's not just a 900 or so page wish list. It's instructions for the next Trump administration for how to enact those things that he was failing to enact before. And so much of it has to do with purging anyone from the government that has any sort of fealty to the Constitution as opposed to. To him.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Right. Yeah, Right. This is not about party and it's not about ideology of left versus right. This is about a personality cult versus, you know, the, I don't know, the system of American democracy that we've had since 1776.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah. And so what were the key moments or the key moment where you and Raj decided, okay, here is the game plan. We've got to go during lockdown.

[Andy Bundipadier]

During the first little bit of lockdown, I think that was late March. So within 30 days, we completed the analysis of all the places where we can go. Where would we go? So we're literally googling like, country safe for trans people, country safe for brown people. Where's the overlap?

[Kevin Allison]

Right?

[Andy Bundipadier]

And then thinking, well, we are going to have a lot easier time finding a job if we can work in the same time zone with all the people that we already know. So, you know, the short list was Ireland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. And then we narrowed out everything but Canada for time zone reasons. And then it was, well, okay, Canada it is. You know, they have a points based system. I'm incredibly fortunate to qualify to be able to just apply to. To become a permanent resident there, like the equivalent of an American green card. So then we pretty quickly figured out, here's how we do that. Here's the process. I'm going to be the primary applicant, he is going to be the dependent. And then it was about gathering documents as quickly as we could.

[Kevin Allison]

But even then, it's not one of the easier places to get into.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Yeah, I mean, I'm lucky. I'm extremely, extremely lucky that I have a PhD from Georgia Tech and I have a bunch of work experience in technology as a manager. So both of those things got me enough points to qualify for permanent residency admission without a specific job offer.

[Kevin Allison]

Right. Yeah. Wow. And now you're there. It's been an entire year that you've been in Canada.

[Andy Bundipadier]

A year and change. Yeah, a year and five months.

[Kevin Allison]

What was that like? What was the process of actually moving like?

[Andy Bundipadier]

I mean, at first, it was waiting. I started gathering documents in May of 2020, and I was finally able to move in May of 2023. So, you know, I had to take an English test. I had to get transcripts from all the schools I'd attended, reference letters from every job I'd ever had, the list of every address I've ever lived. Like, there's. There's a significant amount of paperwork. And then, because there were so many applicants and there was a significant pause or slowdown in processing of applications during the pandemic, I was right. Waiting for close to two years before I heard back. And during the wait, I was seeing the wave of anti LGBTQ legislation in the states come up, and I was seeing Roe v. Wade fall.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Andy Bundipadier]

You know, so, like, 2022, Roe Falls. My first thought is, I'm so glad I've already had a hysterectomy.

[Kevin Allison]

That was when you and I started talking really seriously about my feelings of wanting to get out of the country. And for me, I have severe adhd. I've been diagnosed with that. And a thing that I've learned about people with ADHD is extreme emotionality about justice. We don't have as much emotional regulation, and we really care about things that matter. That's why so many people with ADHD are artists and philosophers and things like that. And back at that time, when Roe fell, I was so disgusted. I was so disgusted just with watching the daily tick of new terrible laws happening everywhere, the daily tick of new news of election deniers getting positions in local governments. Just things getting worse and worse by the day. And also so frustrated with watching most liberals, or just most people I know, just not wanting to tune in very much to any of it. You know what I mean? That whole. I think it's Werner Herzog has the line about the way that Nazi Germany happened was a third were fascists, a third were resisting. But the crucial third was the third that was like, we're just gonna pretend this isn't happening.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Tune out.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. And that made all the difference. So I really. I felt both so anxious and disgusted with how far right things were getting, as far as the right goes in the country, and so disgusted and frustrated with how not pulling things to the left the Democrats have been, and also just frustrated that, I mean, this system is kind of set up so that we're all so goddamn desperate just to keep food on the table.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Yeah, it's by design. It's literally by.

[Kevin Allison]

And it's disgusting. We're all so overwhelmed and exhausted that paying attention to what they're doing is a lot of people just will not have it. They're like, no, I'm just not gonna pay any attention to politics. So with all that in mind, I thought, look, if I moved, then I would probably still have all sorts of residual anger and frustration and fear and yada yada about where I come from, but psychologically, I would have one foot planted somewhere else. And so I felt like the move might help me compartmentalize by having a little bit of a presence away from the maelstrom. You know, that was the thinking then. But also it comes down to adhd. Like, I'm single. I don't have a partner. Making the move from Brooklyn to Hell's Kitchen, which I'm still in the midst of, has been one of the most overwhelming and upsetting things that's ever happened to me. I have not done well with this move. And at the age of 54, a move like this, like, is so pull the rug out from under your feet. So it just became harder and harder for me to imagine moving to someplace like Thailand. So I have a friend who is a fan of the show who was the other person who was really encouraging me to move. There were two friends that were really encouraging it with me, and it was you and another friend of mine who literally did move to Thailand and has now moved back to Canada. But he was starting in Canada.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Which is real different. Real different.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I announced on the podcast, I announced on Risk at that time, hey, I'm thinking of maybe moving. This was after Ro felt, so I was very emotional, and I said, hey, I'm thinking of moving. Is anyone else out there thinking of moving? And put together a network of about 50 people who were interested in moving. And we did one or two Zoom sessions and were sharing some information via Email and stuff like that. People wanted to move to different countries and all that sort of thing. And then there were fans of the show in Thailand who were like, yes, yes, yes, come here. You know, so it was such a fascinating period. But I started to do the thing that I do, which is I became kind of overwhelmed with just keeping my life going and started to just kind of like, you know, not know where to go with all of that and how to make it work. And I recently emailed everyone in the expat network I had put together and saying, hey, guys, sorry I told you I have adhd. That's why you haven't heard from me in two years or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that kind of all fell apart. And, you know, I mean, it's fascinating because the one thing that I can really celebrate about the new place that I'm living in is that it's artist subsidized housing. But there's no such thing as a free lunch. Like, J.D. vance just the other day was promising that Section 8 housing will be one of the first things to go. So, yeah, I mean, it's just the way that there is this relentless intent to burn it all down and cause people harm on the other side is another thing that frustrates me. And you and I talked about this a lot back then is that I hope and I pray that we get Kamala in there. And then I feel like the day after we should be in those streets the way the Women's March was in 2017, because we should start insisting, okay, we keep voting for you to get rid of the Electoral College. We keep voting for you to expand the court. We keep voting for you to give D.C. statehood and maybe Puerto Rico too. You know, it's like, we need democracy reform. We need an Attorney General who actually protects the mother fucking constitutional republic. Like, it's just. It's upsetting to see how we are all so exhausted and demoralized and just trying to keep roofs over our heads, but feel like, oh, my God, the powers that be are just so relentless in their attempts to take things away from the people.

[Andy Bundipadier]

You know, it's the strategy of get people so exhausted that they tune it out.

[Kevin Allison]

Stick around for more of Andy's story.

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[Kevin Allison]

To tell you about a new podcast called Reflektor. If you love Risk, you love true stories, right? And on each episode of Reflector, they really dive into some of the thoughts messiest issues facing our society today. From addiction to election denial to what inspires people to commit violence. And they weave together a story that highlights the nuances and idiosyncrasies of our human nature. On a recent episode, I was so excited to see that they have my friend Mike Pesca come on to talk about how and why why politicians lie well, some more than others. So you can find this new podcast by searching for Reflector right now on whatever app you're using to listen to risk.

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[Andy Bundipadier]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

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We're back.

[Kevin Allison]

Now let's get back to Andy and his story. So how are you feeling now that you've been there for a Year.

[Andy Bundipadier]

I mean, amazing, amazing. And I mean, it's fascinating, right? I live here and I've made many trips back to the States in the year that I've lived here, mostly for work. And it is an immediate, acute shift that as soon as I'm back in US airspace in a US airport, I'm going, oh, people are armed. Oh, I have to be very careful about where I go. I have to be careful about what I say. I have to be careful about who I talk to. And then I'm back in Canadian airspace. Everything's in English and French and in kilometers. And I'm like, ah, this is why I moved here. And it's funny that it's unconscious. Subconscious is immediate. It's like I don't even have words for it. It's just I physically, mentally feel so much better at home. And I've come to consider Toronto home. In January, I'll be halfway to citizenship. I have about a year and a half after that to go. So summer of 2026, I should be a Canadian citizen. And it's like you're describing. The strategy is to be relentless with scandals, with lies, with bad news, with threats, with legislation that harms us. People are dying now. It's not, oh, if Project 2025 passes, it'll be bad. Like, look at the maternal mortality rate in Texas and how much it's changed. It's bad now. Or trans people in Florida can't access care now. There are things that are already in place that are not helpful or, you know, I grew up in Texas. Like, my family is still there. I can't go visit them because if I, God forbid, you know, break my elbow or something and need to go to the hospital, anybody can refuse to treat me in Texas because they don't believe in trans people. And it's a religious exemption. So even if I'm not asking them to prescribe me hormone therapy, but still, you know, there are laws like that, or there are a handful of states now that have passed state level versions of the 2018 thing we were describing, where by state law, the only valid identity documents are one where the gender marker is the same as sex assigned at birth. And because I've changed all my paperwork, like my passport, my Social Security card, even my Texas birth certificate, I have changed all of my documents say mail now. And because of that, in a handful of states, I am considered effectively undocumented. I can't board a plane or use a notary or open a bank account or drive a car because it's Driving without a license because my license is technically not valid because it says mail. I couldn't go to a bar. Any task in life that requires you to have ID I cannot do in those handful of states because according to those state laws, I lack that id or similarly in Florida, you know, if I'm using the men's bathroom and somebody complains, the penalty is six months of jail time. So there's already in place a set of state laws that are, you know, a threat to my existing as a human. So I just don't go. And the thought is, well, if, you know, that becomes federal in the next election, then I'm just not coming back.

[Kevin Allison]

Wow. And you're anxious about that.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Yeah, I mean, I'm anxious about it, and I'm relieved at the same time that I'm here. It's a very complicated set of emotions to have at the same time. Right. That, you know, today I was talking to a coworker who was really surprised to hear that American kids have active shooter drills at school.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andy Bundipadier]

She said, oh, I've never heard that. You know, the only drills that we had were fire drills. Yeah, it's like, no, for us, fire is gunfire. Like, it's a standard part of schooling. Or, you know, the idea that I somehow wouldn't be able to use my documents is just absurd. Or that I would get arrested for being in the wrong bathroom is just absurd. So, you know, to live in a place where I don't have those threats for, you know, access to basic identity documents or services is great. And then the other one, you know, when we started this call, I was. I was very stressed, and we were asking, do you want to talk about it? Do you not want to talk about it? What happened this week is my husband Raj, was at a doctor's appointment, and because he has a family history of heart issues, the doctor did an ecg, and the ECG said, you're having a heart attack right now.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Which he felt totally fine and normal. He's like, that can't be right. I'm here. I'm talking to you. I'm happy. I'm not feeling any pain. Therefore, nothing is wrong. And the doctor's like, no, literally, the machine says, we have to call 911.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Andy Bundipadier]

We have to call an ambulance now. So he gets in an ambulance, goes to the emergency room. I go with him. The paramedics are saying, you're having a heart attack. And he's like, clearly, I'm not having a heart attack. I don't know what you're saying. And then we get into the ER and it's the same thing and they have to do all this further testing. Long story short, either his heart just looks like a heart attack all the time and it's a very, very rare abnormality, or there's something else wrong with his heart that is not in fact an active heart attack, but is something for concern. So left the emergency room, got referral to a cardiologist. He is in great spirits, but I'm freaked out. But the kicker to me is during this whole time when he was like they were saying they were going to call an ambulance, I was thinking, we can't afford that.

[Kevin Allison]

Right.

[Andy Bundipadier]

That's going to be thousands of dollars. Or we're going to go to the er. You know how much that is to like, you know, get in. And then all of the tests, all of the scans, like every blood draw, every, you know, X ray, every service is another bill and then none of it, it's included.

[Kevin Allison]

Right. Then you remembered, oh, I'm in Canada, I'm here.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And we're covered by the Ontario health insurance plan. And the out of pocket for that Entire cycle was $0.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah. I was talking to a fellow a few years ago who talked about how having HIV in the 90s, he had a dual citizenship, I guess, or somehow he was able to go back and forth between Canada and the United States. And he said that at a very crucial moment when he started to have full blown aids, he said he would have died if he hadn't been able to escape America and get to Canada for the healthcare because he just couldn't afford it.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And it's funny because you talk to Canadians and they'll say the healthcare system is broken and they can't take it anymore and they should just go to America. I just laugh so hard because it's like, okay, you're not going to pay 30 grand to deliver a baby here.

[Kevin Allison]

Right, right, right.

[Andy Bundipadier]

You're not going to get a bill for $2,000 just because you had to go to emergency. And they're like, oh, of course, that's crazy. Why would I ever get a bill for going to the emergency room? And I'm like, you see, yes, of course we have challenges, but from where I sit, I feel so much safer in all of the senses, more grounded. My mental health is better. I can read American news without being as agitated about it because I know that I have my life here that's not immediately threatened by these state laws.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a way, people often say, well, the United States is such a gigantic force in the world that almost no matter where you are, you can't escape the ripple effects of it. Like, there's that Greek economist who is like, yeah, you can't really have democratic socialism anywhere because, in fact, we're all affected by American capitalism, like tipping the scales of everything a certain way. So, you know, there is that. That some people would come at me with when I was talking about maybe moving that, oh, you're just going to be thinking about these United States all the time, that from wherever you are and that, I mean, for me, as a white, cisgendered guy, the immediate effects of the laws, in the way that they were affecting you right. During Trump's last term, those aren't staring me right in the face as immediately. For me, it's more of having to have a sense, a story, sense of the story I'm living into in the human family I am a part of. You know what I mean? Like, for me, it might be a psychological flaw of mine to be so concerned about stuff I can't control necessarily, but it's just been really, really rough. Another of my friends did very successfully. She moved to Britain. But again, there are these cases where some people are luckier, you know, because her husband is British, you know, so some people have more options when it comes to immigrating. I mean, one of the things that happened during that whole talking to people about, well, even the word expat is itself, like, kind of reserved for the upper class, white sort of people, you know.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Yeah, I actually don't use it. I'm an immigrant.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. I have come to, like, the extent that I've come to, like, have so much respect for folks who did not have any lucky breaks or, you know, did not have, oh, well, I'm able to get this sort of passport because of this sort of family tie or whatever. You know, people generally don't leave a place and unless they really, really, really feel like they have to. And so, you know, the way that there's just this demonization of immigrants here is it's just so wild. I think in the mind of someone like Trump, it's really just psyops. You know, it's really just like a psychological game he's playing. But it's with people's lives. The way that, like the Haitians in Ohio, which is the state I come from, they're there legally. Businesses around town are thrilled that they're there, they're upstanding Citizens and, oh, but he gets to talk about their lives in such a way that, oh, no, no, we don't care if they're here legally, we're going to deport them anyway. Is just like, wow, just really, really. It's really, really violent rhetoric.

[Andy Bundipadier]

You know, it is very violent. And I think that's the point. Like, I think what we miss when we're used to thinking about what are the arguments, what are different people can have different values, can have different senses of what they would prioritize among competing constraints, and were taught as kids in debate or civics class, if we're lucky, that democracy is this place where a bunch of people as emotional and as irrational as we all are. Democracy is a place where we come together from many different walks of life and negotiate, often in a really brutal name collie way. I'm not sure that there was ever a civilized time in politics. There was PhDs in public policy, and there was a guest lecture once from somebody who was writing about the history of civility. And my recollection of this book is that we have been insulting each other for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So I'm not sure that, you know, being polite is necessarily like. I think it's more of an imaginary past than an actual past. But I think the mistake that we make in dealing with what we're seeing now, which is fascism, which we should use the word like. Timothy Snyder is this wonderful history professor at Yale who specializes in Eastern Europe, specializes in understanding fascism, and is like, we gotta call a spade a spade, and we shouldn't be afraid of it. But I think the mistake that we make when engaging with fascist rhetoric and movements is assuming that we can somehow argue rationally or reasonably as if we were just two people who had different views. It's not actually about whether the Haitians have legal status or not legal status. It's not actually about whether it is constitutional to deport people who are here legally. The entire purpose is to make people hate each other and to gin up anger, because anger is what drives engagement. When you look at what gets people literally riled up, engaged with online content, it's anger and it's hate. So what you're seeing in every outrageous thing is, oh, let's just provide fuel to the fire. And that goes for people who support it and for people who don't like. We get sucked into that loop too when we say, did you hear this outrageous thing? That outrageous thing, that outrageous thing. And it's almost like it's playing into the trap Whereas the way out of the trap is to say, I reject this whole frame. We're not even starting on the same terms. And to imagine that there could be anything like a civil debate between these two different constituencies is imaginary and not helpful. So there are different responses to this, and certainly I'm not, you know, scholar of fascism. I just read them. But for me, the strongest piece of agency I had, and I am so fortunate to be able to qualify, was to say, I reject this game. Yeah, yeah, I'm opting out of this game. I'm opting out of the system. I'm not going to play it, and I'm going to move. And, you know, if, God forbid, Canada goes this direction in future, I will move again. Yeah, I am, you know, I am very specifically not, you know, tied to. I'm going to put down roots, and I'm going to try and be in the same place for a long, long, long time. Because the most important value I hold is that I want to live in a democracy where it's one person, one vote more than anything. And if I have to move 15 times to keep going to wherever in the world is going to uphold that, then I will.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. Well, one thing that I cling to is also this idea that in history, there are these periods of reformation. You know, there are these periods of things breaking down and then reforming. And, you know, I don't know if in my lifetime something like that will happen. And it's, you know, like you're saying it's not just the United States that could use reformation. You know, there's like, for example, with the way that things are, and they're very much kind of like a client state of ours, a sort of a proxy state. Our relationship with Israel, and Israel right now is a place that is just kind of screaming with the leadership under Netanyahu of needing some serious goddamn reformation, you know?

[Andy Bundipadier]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

So, yeah, I just hope it's difficult to watch. I mean, it's. So you watch it happen over and over and over and over and over again. But, you know, it was so exciting to see Kamala choose Tim Walz as her running mate because of his more progressive stances on things. And it's been really kind of depressing to see her tacked to the right since the convention. You know, like, bragging about, if you come into my house with, I'll shoot you with my gun. You know, all this kind of, you know, just kind of pandering toward the right, but we don't know what she'll be like, once in office, you know, like, we've been disappointed so many goddamn times where, you know, there was that hopefulness around a candidate, like, for example, Obama, and then immediately they go to the right. So who knows? Maybe things have to break even more before we can start rebuilding again. But holy comolis, am I hoping that come November, she's in there and she is the beginning of something new. You know, I mean, she could be not just her, but that's the thing. I'm always telling people. You're not voting for a person.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Right.

[Kevin Allison]

You're voting for the chance that that person will have coalitions that will listen to them. Like, everyone's like, well, why aren't the pro Palestine people, you know, protesting Trump and everything?

[Andy Bundipadier]

It's like, because that won't do anything.

[Kevin Allison]

They know they are never going to have an end with him.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. Like, one of the great things about Biden, I've had a lot of problems with Biden, but Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders were able to get in there and make some seriously good things happen with the coalition building they had going around labor and, you know, cracking down on Wall street in this or that way, which we need more of all of those things. So, yeah, unfortunately, I've just heard that Kamala has just assured Wall street people behind closed doors that she's going to fire Lina Khan.

[Andy Bundipadier]

So we don't know.

[Kevin Allison]

Hopefully that's just a rumor, but we.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Can do our best. And I always try to look to people who study this stuff for their whole careers, like, who are the people who study election law, who look at trends in governments over time, who've devoted their whole careers to this and try to read them. But fundamentally, as humans, we can't know the future as much as we might want to, as much as that would help so much in treating anxiety of, like, this is what it's gonna be and when it's gonna be, but we don't know. And one of the things that's been the most helpful and grounding for me through this whole journey is, okay, I'm worried about a bunch of things. What can I do, right? What can I personally do in my family, in my community, to give myself a sense of peace and safety and grounding? And of course, for me, the largest part of that was actually moving. But it's also voting, it's also writing, it's also doing, engaging with fellow artists like this. And there's always, you know, there's always something that we can do. And especially before the move, when I was in the waiting cycle where I'd submitted all the documents, and I was just like, ah, is it happening? Is it not happening? It's really easy to get frozen or paralyzed, but I think the fastest way to lose power is to say, I don't have any.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Andy Bundipadier]

You know, to preemptively give it up. And so there's always an exercise for every single one of us. That is, what is it within my power to do today? And there's always something, even if it's small.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. The writer, Hannah Arendt, who studied fascism, you know, and she was. I believe she was German in the 40s. She was writing, and one of the things that she pointed out was little acts of resistance means so much more than the individual might recognize. Because even something like, for example, someone not putting a swastika in their window, like, just. That seems, like, so simple and subtle, but that is a little beacon to other people. So, yeah, like, helping to get out the vote. One of the things that I found about getting out the vote is that that can be fun. Like, canvassing can be fun. Phone banking is harder nowadays because no one wants to answer the goddamn phone.

[Andy Bundipadier]

We're in different times.

[Kevin Allison]

Letter writing or postcard writing is fun. Talking to family members and friends or whatever, encouraging people to check if they're registered, all that sort of thing is definitely helpful and hopeful. And just like what we're doing now, just having honest conversations and sharing them publicly, I think can be helpful for people as well. So, yeah, I mean, let us both hope and pray that things go as well as they possibly could come November. And like you say, who knows? Who knows what the future holds? But what will count more than anything is the community that we continue to uphold, you know, the human connections that we continue to foster no matter what.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. You know, in the back of my mind, I'm always like, okay, you could. You could still move to Thailand at any time.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Listen, if you ever want to go, I will help you figure it out. You know, still stand by. Moving to Canada is the best thing I've ever done for my mental health. The second best thing is after I moved here through a writing class I took, a fellow writer who's also a physician said, hey, Andy, you have adhd.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh.

[Andy Bundipadier]

And I was like, I do. What do you mean? I don't know. What? No, I don't think so. I can focus all the time. I read like crazy. Like, I love books. I can sit still for hours embedded in a book. And she's like, yeah, that's called hyper focus, right? Oops. Didn't know, but went and got a whole workup, got a proper diagnosis and who knows? It's been a complete game changer in my life in just the last several months, getting a proper diagnosis and starting treatment for that. And I don't think I would have even had the space to think about it, see it, consider it, if I hadn't made the move in the first place.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, interesting. Wow. Yeah. That's a trip. Yeah. Yeah. It's the community and the conversations that are so important, no matter what.

[Andy Bundipadier]

Exactly.

[Kevin Allison]

And that's that. Thank you so much to Andy for sharing that story. He is a science writer, sex educator, and storyteller, and his work has appeared in Extra Magazine, WebMD, Body Storytelling, and Foglifter. As you may know, links to our storytellers, websites and social media are usually in the show notes for each episode. I say that because Andy's last name, Bundipadier, is a long word to spell, but you can find his website, andybandepadie.com in the show notes. Well, I wish everyone out there so much love and courage and solidarity in the coming days. I hope we all can make a difference together. And that's why I end every episode saying, folks, today's the day. Take a risk. Hey folks, there's so much more of Risk in the holiday season. Risk is always publishing new episodes and new stories, as well as holiday favorites. This holiday season, don't forget, click on Risk.