Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy

Summary

Podcast Summary: RISK! – "Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy" (August 11, 2026)

Overview

In this emotionally raw and darkly hilarious episode, host Kevin Allison presents two jaw-dropping stories that dive deep into the complexities and consequences of "non-ethical non-monogamy"—that is, cheating (but with more syllables and nuance). Through personal narratives told by Fox Emerson and Patrick Holbert, the episode explores themes of open relationships gone awry, emotional infidelity, the blurred lines of permission, sexual exploration, and relationships on the brink. Both cautionary and cathartic, these stories expose vulnerability, human messiness, and the healing power of honesty.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

1. Introduction & Theme

[04:30]

• Kevin Allison introduces the episode's title and main theme: "Non Ethical, Non Monogamy – When Cheating Comes With Seven More Syllables."
• Sets the expectation for wild, true stories about the risks, rules, and realities of non-monogamy when communication fails.

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2. Fox Emerson: "Good Luck Getting Rid of Me"

[05:17–25:07; 31:58–35:12]

Story Summary

• Fox finds himself in a Milan jail cell, arrested after a confrontation with his lover, Ben, who has become increasingly erratic and manipulative.
• Background:
  • Fox and his husband Callum (or "Kelham") have been in an open relationship for several years, with the rule that outside encounters must remain just sexual and not emotional.
  • After moving from rain-soaked London to Milan for a fresh start, Fox travels to Atlanta for a break; there, he meets Ben, and they start a passionate affair.
• Boundary Crossed:
  • Fox and Ben's connection quickly becomes emotional, blurring the agreement Fox had with Callum.
  • Ben visits Fox in Milan—more than once—and eventually decides to move there, staying with Fox, who hides the depth of the relationship from Callum.
• Red Flags & Downward Spiral:
  • Ben's behavior escalates: he becomes unpredictable, angry, and disturbing ("I like the smell of [pimples]" – Fox quoting Ben, [00:05]).
  • Friends warn Fox about Ben's oddness; things become tense and hostile.
• The Night Everything Collapsed:
  • After a fight, Ben refuses to leave, laughing: "Good luck getting rid of me. You might want to check the Italian laws." ([21:45])
  • Ben calls the police; Fox is handcuffed and spends 48 hours in jail before the case is dismissed.
• Aftermath & Revelations:
  • Callum, showing loyalty and love, flies from London and is waiting for Fox outside the jail.
  • The ultimate betrayal: Ben tried to get Fox removed from his own apartment lease.
  • Fox and Callum work towards healing, with Fox realizing the emotional toll and what he almost lost.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the open relationship boundary:
  "The issue with Ben wasn't that I had sex with him. It's that I'd emotionally cheated. I developed a relationship with him and then on top of that, I hid the relationship. I lied about that relationship to my husband rather than just come clean…" – Fox Emerson ([34:53])
• Fox’s realization post-ordeal:
  "That two days in that jail cell for me was life changing, actually. It made me realize what I’d nearly lost." ([24:25])
• Callum’s support:
  "No, no, we will fix it." – Callum to Fox ([24:17])
• The ultimate twist:
  "Ben had somehow contacted my real estate agent to have himself added and have me removed. That was the moment… when I realized I'd been played." ([23:17])

Emotional & Relationship Insights

• The “rules” of non-monogamy depend on honesty; when secrets and emotional attachments creep in, chaos can unfold.
• The importance of communication even before a breach, not just after.
• How manipulative partners can exploit emotional vulnerability, especially when one is already lonely or unsettled.

Addendum – Reflections on Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy

[31:58–35:12]

• Fox unpacks why this was “non-ethical” non-monogamy: rules were broken not by sex, but by forming an emotional attachment and keeping secrets.
• Expresses regret for not communicating with Callum sooner about his loneliness and dissatisfaction.
• Realizes that what hurt most was not the sex, but the emotional betrayal and secrecy.
• Advice to his past self:
  “If I could go back in time...I probably would have had a better conversation with him...because after the Ben situation, we have had that conversation and my husband has said, ‘I wish you talked to me. I wish you told me how you felt. I would have stepped forward sooner and made some changes.’” ([34:32])

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3. Patrick Holbert: "Erections Don’t Lie, But People Do"

[37:56–51:16; 52:10–54:56]

Story Summary

• Patrick finds himself at a dominatrix’s apartment in Queens, wearing only a blindfold and lime green thong, embarking on his first real-life BDSM experience.
• Why he’s there:
  • Recently married, but feeling unattractive and unhappy with his body and marriage.
  • Stops watching porn at his therapist’s direction, but redirects his thrill-seeking to Craigslist ads for dominatrixes and cross-dressing fantasies.
  • Justifies the behavior to himself by referencing a “don’t ask, don’t tell” polyamorous agreement that was vaguely established with his wife.
• Session with the dominatrix:
  • Experiences physical submission, sexual exploration, and a deeper sense of being seen, valued, and present—if only for a moment.
  • Memorable comedic description: “I was looking at a caboose right now. And so was she. And I’m also about to get railed.” ([38:16])
  • Admits: “Pretty soon I would be being led around on a leash on all fours in her apartment, but it was a lot like going to therapy.” ([00:19]/[38:29])
• Aftermath:
  • Patrick initially keeps it a secret, convincing himself he was following the relationship rules.
  • Guilt builds until, after a yoga retreat, he confesses everything to his wife during a drive—a moment that devastates her.
  • The couple pursues alternative-sex therapy and eventually rebuilds trust, opening up their marriage with actual communication.
• Truth and Ongoing Struggles:
  • Patrick owns up to having lied about not just the dominatrix visit, but the frequency—he’d gone twice.
  • Even years later, he admits, honesty about his desires remains a challenge.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On rationalizing cheating:
  “I thought my wife and I were polyamorous. It turns out you have to talk about this kind of thing first.” ([52:13], addendum)
• On secrecy:
  “By watching so much [porn], I was creating a secret, separate sex life from my wife.” ([39:40])
• On the session’s impact:
  “When I was getting pegged, it helped me forget about all that stuff. I wasn't thinking about the guy who owed me money. I wasn't thinking about how I hated how my body looked… I felt desirable.” ([53:28])
• On healing and marriage:
  “She forgave me. She took that step and got this therapist involved and it repaired our marriage." ([49:52])
• Final line:
  “Erections don’t lie. But people do.” ([51:12])

Addendum – Backstage Reflections

[52:10–54:56]

• Patrick reveals regrets about the stage performance; he wishes he’d better emphasized how the experience made him feel desirable and allowed mental escape.
• Shares his intent to keep working on this material for a solo show, “Get Pegged.”

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4. Kevin Allison’s Reflections

[54:56–59:57]

• Highlights how common “don’t ask, don’t tell” open relationships are—but how rarely the boundaries are clearly negotiated.
• Admits his own mixed feelings about such arrangements, especially after observing their impact in Thai culture.
• Praises both Fox and Patrick for their willingness to move beyond the “lighter, less complex” versions of their stories and share the messier, more authentic versions on RISK!.

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Notable Moments & Quotes (with Attribution and Timestamps)

• Fox Emerson:

  • “Good luck getting rid of me. You might want to check the Italian laws.” ([21:45])
  • “That two days in that jail cell for me was life changing, actually. It made me realize what I’d nearly lost.” ([24:25])
  • “The issue with Ben wasn’t that I had sex with him. It’s that I’d emotionally cheated…” ([34:53])
  • On post-jail realization: “Ben had somehow contacted my real estate agent to have himself added and have me removed. That was the moment when I realized I’d been played.” ([23:17])

• Patrick Holbert:

  • “Pretty soon I would be being led around on a leash on all fours in her apartment, but it was a lot like going to therapy.” ([38:29])
  • “I thought my wife and I were polyamorous. It turns out you have to talk about this kind of thing first.” ([52:13], addendum)
  • “Erections don’t lie. But people do.” ([51:12])
  • “I felt pretty. I felt desirable. This sex worker made me feel attractive… everyone can relate to the craving and the urge and the need and the desire to be elsewhere to escape.” ([53:35])
  • “You removed the possibility of me even participating in it with me. And you lied about it for this whole month and a half since it happened, like you’re a fucking liar.” – Patrick recalling his wife’s words ([49:13])

• Kevin Allison:

  • “As everyone knows, I’m a big believer in ethical non-monogamy, but I have very mixed feelings and from personal experience about don’t ask, don’t tell non-monogamy… it makes all of these things that much more likely in my perspective.” ([55:44])
  • “I’m very proud that people feel like they can come on Risk and tell the most raw and real and sometimes messy version of their story.” ([57:00])

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Insights & Takeaways

• Ethical vs. Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy:
  The difference isn't just about rules being broken or followed—it’s about the spirit of honesty versus secrecy, and the difference between physical and emotional betrayal.
• Communication is Everything:
  Both stories highlight how avoidance and rationalization set the stage for chaos; true openness requires difficult conversations.
• The Power of Storytelling:
  RISK! provides a unique space for people to tell the raw, unsanitized truths of their darkest, oddest, or most formative experiences—and for listeners, this breeds both empathy and reflection.

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Further Resources

• Fox Emerson’s writing:

  • goodluckgettingridofme.substack.com
  • foxemerson.com

• Patrick Holbert's show:

  • Instagram: @itspatrickholbert
  • Upcoming solo show: "Get Pegged"

• Kevin’s non-monogamy conversation resource:

  • "Say What’s Not Being Said" by Reid Mahalko (thrivingnow.com)

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Conclusion

"Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy" offers a wild, moving, and brutally honest look at how fragile our agreements can be without true candor—and just how much can be risked when we suppress or rationalize our own needs and desires. If you’ve ever wondered about the real-world costs of non-monogamy done carelessly, or the unexpected healing that can come from telling the full story, this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

[Kevin Allison]

On this episode of Risk, you'll hear Fox Emerson.

[Fox Emerson]

I see Ben at the mirror popping pimples. And he said, I like the smell of them.

[Kevin Allison]

I mean, I. I wish Fox hadn't started telling stories about me on my own damn show. But you'll also hear Patrick Holbert.

[Patrick Holbert]

Pretty soon, I would be being led around on a leash on all fours in her apartment. But it was a lot like going to therapy.

[Kevin Allison]

And me, Kevin Allison, kind of sort of leading you around on a leash in a therapeutic way, too, by giving you the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. Folks, a few years back, I started to feel like I was about 537 years old. And some days I'd look in the mirror and think, wow, okay, Kev, you look like you're 537 years old, too. A couple years back, I had a tiny little surgery on my forehead, and the doctor said, w oh, this is so great. Your wrinkles are so huge, I can just hide the scar in one of them. But now, because of One Skin, OS1 people are noticing a difference. I am looking younger. One Skin developed OS1, their proprietary peptide designed to work with the skin's biology by targeting dysfunctional cells clinically shown to improve the appearance of firmness, smoothness, skin to radiance, and the look of the fine lines. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, One Skin is helping you unlock your healthiest skin. Now, as you age, for a limited time, try one skin with 15% off using the code risk at OneSkin co. Risk. That's 15% off OneSkin co with the code Risk. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Risk and tell them we sent you. Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun.

[Fox Emerson]

An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely suv, an inexplicable queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Andy]

Pick up.

[Fox Emerson]

Fees may apply.

[Benjamin Boster]

Welcome to the I Can't Sleep podcast with Benjamin Boster. If you're tired of sleepless nights, you'll love the I Can't Sleep podcast. I help quiet your mind by reading random articles from across the web to bore you to sleep with my soothing voice. Each episode provides enough interesting content to hold your attention, and then your mind lets you drift off. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's I Can't Sleep with Benjamin Boster.

[Sam]

Did you ever wonder what it's like to live alone, hidden in the woods, not speaking to a single soul for 30 years? Or wander the desert, uncover a hidden well, and dive to the bottom of the deepest water hole for 2,000 miles? The Snapchat PODC takes you there with amazing stories told by the people who live them with an original soundscape that drops you directly into their shoes. Snap judgment. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

[Kevin Allison]

Okay, folks, this is Danny Sheen. Field's behind me now, and we're calling this episode Non Ethical, Non Monogamy When Cheating Comes with seven More Syllables. To start things off, a story by Fox Emerson. This is quite a wild ride. And it's just one chapter of a far bigger wild ride. It's a story we call Good Luck. Getting Rid of Me. Getting rid of me. Getting rid of me. Getting rid of me.

[Fox Emerson]

I'm in Milan. I'm in a jail cell. It's two meters square. I don't even know at this point how long I've been here. It's. I'm struggling to breathe. My anxiety's probably at 100 at this point. I'm laying on a thin mattress. It's cold and it's also hot. It's August and the walls are grimy and it's grey. And I stand and I walk up to the wall and I turn and I pace back to the other wall. And then I sit down again and I can't lay down because then I start thinking about everything. And I can't let myself do that. I can't think about my life and how I got here. And so I just. I stand again and I go to the bars and I look out and all through this above me, there's fluorescent lights, and they're buzzing constantly. In an odd way, they're kind of comforting. It's the only sound I've got. I. They've taken my laces and I'm holding my. My shorts up because it's my belt as well. I have no phone and I have no watch, and there's nothing in here. So I don't know if I've been here four hours or 10 or 20. It's incredible. There's a buzzer. So at least what feels like once an hour, I'll press that, and then two guards will come and they'll let me out. And I get this moment where I get to go to another room. And it's a bathroom, and it's just as grimy and gray, but It's a shift of scenery, just for a minute. And I use the bathroom there and then I leave and I go back to the cell and then they leave and then it's back to quiet again and I'm alone again and it's the same thing. And I. This went on for so long and I have to stop my thoughts. I'm trying to think of good things and that's really difficult in this situation because I don't exactly know what's happened and I don't know how long I'm going to be here for. Is it an hour or a day or a year, like. And I have to stop thinking because that's when I can't breathe and I feel choked up and I'm gripping the mattress and I'm standing again and I go back to the cage and I'm holding onto the bars and I want to call out for someone. I have to have a conversation. And then I sit down again and I. And my mind just goes straight back into. We came to Milan. Kelham, my husband of 12 years. We was so excited to come to Milan because this was a reset for us. We'd been in London for so many years, where it was raining all the time and it was always dark and we were happy enough and we'd come to Milan so many times and we had friends in Milan and one day we just looked at each other and went, let's do it. Let's move to Milan. So we packed everything, we put a whole bunch of stuff in our friend Jade's garage and said farewell to some people and please come and visit us in Italy. And. And that's it. We moved to Milan and bang, straight into the center of everything. It was fantastic. Europe and the culture and the food and the coffee and all the beautiful, sexy men. It was amazing. We just so happy. And I mean, of course, my career was always the same. I'm an IT project manager. I have a very boring job. I just sit at my desk all day and having a change of scenery actually gives me a bit of excitement, because when I finish my day, I can go outside and it's a whole new city to discover. And Callum, he travels all over the world and he's a filmer in skateboarding. So he has this exciting job and it's done so well and he's away a lot. So when we first moved there, I said to Callum, where it's getting into September, it's going to get a bit cooler. I could do with a break somewhere exciting and different. Before we move into the grind of Milan. And he said, yeah, look, you always go away for a month in Europe. Why don't you go somewhere further afield? You love the States. You haven't been to the United States for a long time. And I went, you know what? I would love to do that. And I had just met someone from Atlanta, and he was like, oh, my God, Amanda's amazing. He just made it sound like this beautiful, picturesque place. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to Atlanta for a month. So that's what I did. I packed up all of my work equipment in three suitcases and I went to Atlanta for a month. I arrived there and I had this weird Airbnb. I love the area. And straight away, I met people, like, everywhere I went. It was so good. And I'm in a coffee in my first day, and I'm talking to this older guy, and he's like, you and I are best friends. And I'm like, we're not. I've just met you, but okay. And we started hanging out. And through him, I met so many people, and it was amazing. And a few days in, I. That's when I met. That's when I met Ben. In an open relationship, there are some boundaries, and I crossed them definitely. When I met Ben, the sex was phenomenal. The sex was something else. It was just like how it used to be with Callum. It was exciting and it was new, and he just couldn't get enough of me. And he was, I guess, as fixated on me as I wasn't him. We got on so well, and I liked him because he was so different. Whereas Callum's so quiet and kind of angelic and such a good natured person. Ben is this chaos engine who just talks a lot and he's erratic, and I just liked him straight away. And so for pretty much three and a half weeks in Atlanta, I hung out with Ben. We had a lot of fun. And I was like, this is going to be really confusing when I leave and go back to Milan, my new life with my husband. And so I did. I went back to Milan and I tried to get into my life, but Ben was on the other side of the phone and he's messaging me and he's calling me and he was crying. He really missed me. And the problem was that I missed him, too. I couldn't stop thinking about him. So I was living a bit of a double life. I hadn't really told Callum too much about Ben. I told him some things, but not the full story. Then Callum went away for five weeks or something. It was around the time that Ben was like, you know what? I want to come to Milan. Can I come and visit for a week or two? And I said, oh, that would be amazing. We could go to Rome on a train for a couple of hours. We could go to Florence. He said, that would be amazing. So that's what happened. He came over and we had this amazing two week trip. He left me. I love Europe. I want to live in Italy. And I was like, oh, God, this is getting more complicated. Then goes back to Atlanta. And we kept talking. And then Callum was away a lot at this point, and I was, you know, I'd move cities and suddenly I realized I'm in the same boat as when I was in London. I'm still kind of a little bit lonely and I'm still kind of on my own a lot in the evenings. And then Ben came back to Milan and another trip and that went amazing. And then suddenly one day, Ben calls me and he says, hey, I'm moving to Milan. I'm moving there in a few weeks. I'm going to pack up everything on a calm. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to get a job. Can I stay with you for a couple of weeks? You can stay with me for a couple of weeks, but you know what? I am married. I don't know how this is going to go. This is getting a bit confusing. He talked me around. He was like, no, no, it's fine. We're just, you know, we're just going to be near each other. It'd be cool to hang out and do stuff. I like traveling with you and we can go out and do dinner and have drinks and you can help, you know. And I thought, okay, you know what, this sounds like dangerous territory. But I wasn't thinking. And then Ben moved to Milan and he arrived in my apartment. And I'm standing in my apartment, Ben walks in. And the minute he walked in, there was something different about him. I couldn't see what it was. He was just different, angrier. He was not as talkative. And if I tried to offer him food or if I tried to make him comfortable, he just seemed to lash out. And I thought, okay, he's a little bit jet lag, Something's going on. And then he said, oh, I lost my job. And I said, oh, well, you should have extended the trip. I was shocked. He said, no, it's okay, I'll get another one. The days became weeks and he didn't change. And I started to notice that he was not who I thought. One morning I woke up and I found these white dots on the mirror. And I'd seen them in Atlanta. And I'm like, what are these white dots? And I heard him doing something in the bathroom. And I. The door was open. I walked in there and he was popping pimples on the mirror. They're landing on the mirror. And I just stood back and I was like, oh. Oh, my God. I just stood back and I said, oh, my God. That's. I found them all the time when we were in Atlanta and I didn't know what they were. And he said, I like the smell of them. I left the house and I went for a walk to think about things and process things. This has got a bit out of control. And then I've had a conversation with Callum and said, look, just stay in London for an extra couple of weeks, because things are a bit complicated here. And I know that Callum and I are now officially on the rocks. So after my big walk, I called a friend and I told my friend Mario about this. And Mario said to me, I think you're dealing with a psychopath. And I laughed. I said, I. I mean, I. That's a bit extreme. Yes. He's a bit weird. He's a bit odd. And around this time, a couple of my friends had started messaging me and saying, are you okay? What's going on? And my friends had met Ben, and one of them messaged me and said, look, there is something about him I can't put my finger on. And he's just odd. Another week or so where I essentially avoided my house. Then one night, I went out with some friends and had a few drinks, and I came home quite late. And as soon as I walked in, he just stood against the counter, arms folded, just watched me. I said, hello. Of course I've had a few drinks, so it might have been hello. And he just launched into a tirade about these disgusting things about my friends, these observations he'd made having met my friends. And they were very insulting. They were very degrading. They were just not things I wanted to hear. And of course, I'd had a few drinks, and I. I just stepped forward and right up to his face and said, you need to leave my house right now. Right now, or I will call the police. And then he just laughed this evil laugh, and he said, good luck getting rid of me. You might want to check the Italian laws. I screamed. I screamed, you need to get out of my house. Get out of my house. Then he called the police. Minutes later, the police arrived. Four arrived at first, and then within two minutes, there was another four in this eight police. And it's. I think it's 2 o' clock in the morning now. And they've taken him into another room. They're talking to me in another room. I don't understand what's going on. I can hear him talking to someone in broken Italian, broken English. And then I'm trying to talk with my pigeon, Italian. And. And then I look through and I can see he's showing them something on the phone. And then suddenly, I'm being handcuffed. And then it's a blur. I am sobering very fast. Suddenly I am in the handcuffed in the back of the police car. And then I'm being processed. And as I'm taking my shoelaces and my belt off me and my phone, I still had my watch on. And I quickly pressed a button and I sent a message to Jade, our friend in London. I messaged through my phone and quickly said, hey, I have been arrested. Please don't tell Callum until the morning. I love you. And then they saw me and took my watch. And that's where it began. And I spent 48 hours in the jail cell. So I'm in the jail cell and there's no windows, so I don't know. It's 48 hours until all of a sudden, I go in front of a judge and I'm told by a translator that they're dismissing the case because there was. And all of a sudden, I'm free. All I can think about is just leaving that horrible space that felt like a lifetime. So I get all of my things in a plastic bag. I'm putting my watch on and my phone's gone flat, and I don't care about my belt. I'm still holding my shorts up as I walk outside. And I step outside, and straight away, the sun is on my face. I just paused for a moment just to look up, and I'm just thinking. I'm so happy right this second, just for just that one second to have the sun and be outside and it's over for now. And then I walk outside and there's this man standing there, and he's blond, and I think, that's Callum. He's. He's here. He's outside the station after everything. And he sees me and he just walks straight up. And then he says, as he's throwing his arms around me, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And all, like. All I can think is, why are you sorry? What? You've done nothing. You're, like, perfect. And I'm hugging him and I just have this. I. I just have this moment where I'm holding my husband of 12 years really tight and we're both sopping. I. I don't know how long we stood there, I still don't know what time it is, but my phone's flat. And so he puts his fingers in mine and we walk away. And he says, I have so many questions for you. Of course I've got questions. How is he even here? And the one question he has, which I've only just found out myself, is, what happened? How did you end up in jail? I just. I looked at Callum and I said, I. Apparently I sexually assaulted him. And he laughed. He said, but it was two in the morning and you had been with all the boys the entire day and evening, drinking, so. And you arrested what time? And I said, just after that. He said, so there was no. And were you clothed or. I said, no. I mean, I didn't touch him. He said, what evidence did they. And I said, I. At this point, I don't know. I know that he showed them something on his phone, but I. I don't know. And we stood there. I still don't know what time it is, but my phone's flat. And so he puts his fingers in mine and we walk away. And he says, for now, let's just get you somewhere safe. Let's have a coffee, let's sit down. And all I could just think is, I keep looking at him and I'm holding his hand and I said to him, I. I'm sorry. Like, this mess I've created. And he just nodded. He said, no, no, we will fix it. We walk to a friend's apartment and I sit down with Callum and we have coffee and trying to just act normal. And then we start going into the details and Calendar says, I, yeah, I was actually outside that station for five hours. We. Obviously, I've got you on Find My. So I knew that you were in the police station. And of course, after getting Jade's message, and then I spoke to other people in Milan, and then everybody was trying to find you. We were trying to call the court system, trying to call police stations, and no one would give anyone information. Only the husband could get it. So he flew from London. I'm looking at Callum and I'm like, I can't believe what you've just gone through. He said, no, I can't believe what you've just gone through. So I, I put my phone on charge and I turned it on and getting overwhelmed with messages. So many of my friends are like, what the fuck's happened to you? From in London and also in Italy and some back from Australia, where Callum and I are from.

[John]

And

[Fox Emerson]

I'm looking at Callum and I'm still touching him. I can't believe that I'm out of that cell and I'm holding him and I see this one message from my real estate agent that just was really odd. And I looking at it and then Callum's like, what? And I, I, I just said, callum, I. And I just gave him the phone. Callum, look at this. And he read the message and he looked at me and he said, this was orchestrated. Ben had somehow contacted my real estate agent to have himself added and have me removed. That was the moment, that was the moment when I realized I'd been played, that it all came crashing down. It was also a big, I think that two days in that jail cell for me was life changing, actually. It made me realize what I'd nearly lost. This has been over a year since this happened and I, I haven't let Callum go once. Actually, Callum and I just talking about this recently and he said to me, you need to write this down. And I said, actually, I've got an idea. I'm going to write this into a book and I'm going to call it Good Luck Getting Rid of me. He just laughed. He said, that's both traumatic and funny, but I love you anyway.

[Kevin Allison]

Sam.

[Sam]

Hey folks.

[Kevin Allison]

I want to talk to you about the perfect gene. I have always struggled with the fact that I have no butt, I'm a bit chubby, and I guess my size is a little unusual in terms of like big waist and not so long legs. You know, I'm really making myself sound awesome here. But the fact is I've always been impatient when shopping. I get very. When shopping, I'm not a. I don't like shopping. So many, many, many, many, many times I have just settled for jeans that really don't fit very well or are a slightly just not quite the hue, not quite the color that I'm really looking for or sometimes even the not quite the texture I'm looking for. So the perfect jean set me up. They don't cut corners either. Ykk zippers, reinforced belt loops, deep pockets that actually fit your phone, your keys, your wallet and such a range wastes from 26 to 52 lengths from 26 to 38 six fits from skinny to thick thick 13 washes. It's over 5,000 combinations. I also love these these athletic comfort shorts they have. So listen, risk listeners get 15 off their first order plus free shipping at the Perfect Gene NYC. Or Google the Perfect Gene and use the code risk15 for 15 off. That's the Perfect gene. Hey, do you have trouble sleeping? Who, me? Yes, you. Trouble sleeping? Oh, yeah, sometimes I just have a lot of stuff on my mind. You should try the Sleepy Podcast. What? The Sleepy Podcast. It's where host Otis Gray reads old books in a low, rhythmic voice to help you get to sleep. Classic books like Pride and Prejudice, Winnie the Pooh, Sherlock Holmes. Just softly read bedtime stories for grown ups. Okay. I mean, I need to run some errands. I'll listen to an episode in the car. I think you're really, really good. No, dude, you shouldn't operate heavy machinery

[Patrick Holbert]

when you're listening to Sleep.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh dear. Well, let's just hope he gets home alive. But the bigger point I was trying to make, folks, is that for years, Sleepy has helped millions of people catch some much needed Z's and start their day off fresh and discover old books they didn't know they'd love. Whether you're having trouble sleeping or just like a good bedtime story, fluff up the cool side of your pillow and tune into Sleepy. Unless you're driving. I nodded off there. Yes, sir. But listen, folks, you can listen to Sleepy on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts new bedtime stories every week. I know what you're thinking. You're wondering, has Kevin ever used shampoo or dishwashing liquid instead of laundry detergent? Wondering if that'd work. Or has Kevin ever ruined countless items of clothing by washing them incorrectly? Of course I have. I am not a master of laundry. And the one thing that always gets me is how my clothes don't usually smell nice. But now things have changed. I have Laundry Sauce, which makes my clothes look and feel and smell incredible. I got a compliment yesterday on how good my shirt I cleaned with Laundry Sauce Australian Sandalwood scent in it. These highly concentrated pods are packed with the cleaning power of bioenzymes that obliterate stains. Laundry Sauce also offers fabric conditioner, scent booster, dryer sheets, fabric fresher spray, and a full money back guarantee. If you don't get better smelling cleaner laundry, you get a full refund for an unlimited time only. Our listeners get 20% off your entire order. When you use the code risk@laundry sauce.com, that's 20% off your order@laundry sauce.com with the promo code risk. After your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. It's time to make laundry day the best day of the week. Sam, This is Risk. This is Cruella behind me now. And we just heard from Fox Emerson. Listen, there is so much more of that [e-mail] and fox has all kinds of other writing you can find@fox emerson.com now, after coming up with the title of this episode, nonethical Non monogamy, I was inspired to ask Fox for a little more information about one aspect of that story. And here's the recording that he sent back.

[Fox Emerson]

My husband and I had an arrangement about five, six years into our relationship. We both decided we wanted to have an open relationship with some clear understandings and some boundaries. And they were that this was just sex. If we were to have sex with people, they weren't building friendships. You weren't building an emotional connection with someone, then it was just sex. And we were both okay with that. What went wrong with Ben was the perfect storm. I was very frustrated in London with my job, with my life there, the weather. I just didn't want to be in London anymore. I wanted to move to Europe, which had been our plan years earlier. When I traveled to Atlanta, it was just for a bit of excitement, for a month to work remotely. So when I met Ben, he saw something in me and he pushed that door wide open and he manipulated me into doing things that I wouldn't have done. But lying to my partner and going down an emotional connection, being involved with someone, it wasn't just sex. And he kept telling me that he was going to keep my secret. Don't worry. Kellen was never going to find out. And it was that sort of kept me tired because we had this shared secret. And suddenly I'm building exactly the thing that Callum and I had ruled out. That wasn't part of the arrangement that we had. So what I did was with Ben was I emotionally cheated. I had a relationship with him. If I could go back in time, it's not that I wouldn't have gone to Atlanta. I probably still would have gone to Atlanta. I just would have had a conversation with Cannon first about how I felt about my life, how I felt being in London all those years, and how I felt about how much he worked away and how I was often on my own. I was often on my own too much. Most of the time I didn't feel that I was even in a relationship. But I had to just look after myself because my husband was working and building his career. And I felt very selfish for even thinking that or wanting to say that. But that was the truth. So if I could go back in time, I probably would have had a better conversation with him about how am I to have addressed that? Because after the Ben situation, we have had that conversation and my husband has said, I wish you talked to me. I wish you told me how he felt. I would have stepped forward sooner and. And made some changes. Ben gave me so much excitement that I hadn't felt for a long time. And the sex, the sex was amazing. This is what he did. He. He gave me great sex and he said all the right things so that within a few months, I kind of felt trapped. I didn't want to end that, whatever this was, relationship. So the issue with Ben wasn't that I had sex with him. It's that I'd emotionally cheated. I developed a relationship with him and then on top of that, I hid the relationship. I lied about that relationship to my husband rather than just come clean and say, look, I've been to Atlanta and I've met someone and we slept together a few times and he stayed the night and we went to dinners and we hung out, which was not part of the open relationship agreement that was the issue with Ben.

[Kevin Allison]

Thank you so much to FOX for so much thought and care put into all of that. I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but my friend Reid Mahalko, he coaches people on the subject of non monogamy. And there's a great article you can find on online at a site called thriving now.com about his difficult conversations formula. If you Google the title of the article, it's say what's not being said. A lot of people, myself included, have found Reid's difficult conversations formula helpful in any kind of relationships. Friendships, talks with family members, it's well worth checking out. And I have a couple more voices for you to hear right now. Here are two of my recent students from my online storytelling workshop.

[Andy]

If you've ever wanted to learn how to tell personal stories with honesty, humor and heart, you have to take this class.

[John]

Kevin creates a culture of acceptance and genuine encouragement where everyone and every story is truly welcome.

[Andy]

An extraordinary teacher who creates a safe, fun, and incredibly encouraging space to explore stories you didn't even know you had.

[John]

I was so new. And of course, that voice in my head was still there, loud and clear. You're not good enough.

[Andy]

If you're thinking, I could never do that. You're exactly the kind of person who should sign up.

[John]

I can tell my stories, you know, like on a podcast.

[Andy]

It's one of the most supportive, welcoming environments I've ever been part of.

[John]

I was blown away.

[Andy]

And I promise you'll surprise yourself and you'll build friendships that last well beyond the class.

[John]

And yes, I will be taking Kevin's workshop again.

[Kevin Allison]

I'm so thankful to Andy and John for making those testimonials. And my next online storytelling workshops are starting on September 2nd, with sessions meeting every Wednesday evening eastern time. And one is starting on September 13th with sessions meeting every Sunday morning Eastern time. So email me at kevinrisk-show.com to learn more. Next up, a story from Patrick Holbert that he shared at a Risk live show in New York City not too long ago. Here's Patrick now with a story we call Erections Don't Lie, But People do.

[Patrick Holbert]

I'm on my knees wearing nothing but a blindfold and a lime green thong and a frizzy white tutu.

[Sam]

Ow.

[Patrick Holbert]

And the sex worker behind me says, you gotta let me know if your hands go numb or if your fingers start to look blue. Which confused me. Cause I had a blindfold on so I couldn't see my hands. So I did that thing you do when you're blindfolded. And I just start blinking a whole bunch like this, trying to get it to shimmy up my head. You've been there. And it works. And I can kind of see out the bottom. And my hands look fine. My veins are bulging from how tight she tied the rope, but everything looked fine. And I bent my head back like this to see what else I could see. And in front of me was a window. And it was this white, gauzy curtain. And I could see out the window, a familiar sight. It was Long Island Railroad station in Jamaica, Queens. And a train was leaving the station. And I thought, oh, I'm looking at a caboose right now. And so is she. And I'm also about to get railed. Before I could make that joke out loud, she spanks me hard. She says, did I say you could peek? You can't look out my window. I was in heaven. I got married four months earlier. And when the wedding pictures came back, I hated how I look. I was puffy and out of shape. I was 36 years old. I was eight years sober. But I had the beer gut of a 46 year old who was seven months pregnant. Like, I look worse than I did when I was an active alcoholic. And I just, I spun out with self loathing. I was like, how did I get here? How did this happen? And what happened was I, for a few years, I was pursuing my comedy career workaholically. I was communicating with a day job client who owed me $5,000 rageaholically. And I was medicating all this stress in my life with pints and pints and pints of ice cream alcoholically. And I had let myself go. I was basically a dry drunk. I couldn't handle it. So I decided I would just change everything all at once. I was going to deal with this problem with everything all at the same time, like a good perfectionist. So I quit eating sugar cold turkey. I stopped going to the 12 step meetings that were helping me stay mentally healthy so I could go to the gym instead. And I also stopped watching pornography. I went 90 days without watching porn. By the way, the first sign of addiction is when you start counting the days. Like if you meet somebody and they're like, what are you talking about? I don't got a problem with cocaine. I haven't done blow in a fortnight. It's like you gotta go to rehab for two fortnights and you're from the 1800s. I stopped watching porn because my therapist helped me identify it as one of my thrill seeking behaviors. And she also said that by watching so much of it, I was creating a secret, separate sex life from my wife. And it was an isolated sexuality. We were having a hard time with how much sex we were having at that time. And she said, maybe if you don't watch porn, your sex life will get better with your wife. So I quit watching porn. And here's the thing, as an addict, you start to look for other things to replace behaviors. And I decided to look on the Internet in more interesting places to get turned on. I was probably porn addicted. I was using porn to escape. I was using it to get out of my head. And I would watch some pretty intense stuff. Like I'd watch BDSM porn where the women would dominate the men and treat them like furniture or force them to wear girl clothes. And I would imagine myself in those scenarios because ever since I was a young kid, I would, I was really interested in cross dressing and I fantasized about being in those scenarios. So anyway, when I stopped flooding my nervous system and my brain with all that information imagery, I had to replace that thrill seeking. So I started looking at Craigslist sex ads to get turned on. Because I'm just like, well, this is. This is just print media, you know? And I would justify it. I'd be like, I'm not. I'm not looking at porn. I'm just reading the resumes of New York City's hardest workers. But then I created a secret email account. I started sending emails to these people thinking, well, I'm not looking at porn. I'm just making pen pals. And I made an appointment with someone. I saw an ad for a dominatrix. Her ad said that she specialized in smothering and tickling and foot worship and forced feminization. And I read that part, and I was like, well, she's the one. And so I made an appointment. My wife was working nights for Fashion Week, and one night I got in an Uber to go to Queens to meet this person. And on the way there, I'm getting all these text messages, said, you must text when you're on your way. You must text again when you're arriving. Text one more time when you're at my door, and I'll tell you the buzzer number. And I remember thinking, this lady's bossy, and I can't wait to meet her. When she opened the door, she didn't look like the doms from the femdom porn I was watching. She looked actually really like a normal person. She was wearing this gray cotton maxi dress. She looked really cozy, actually. Like she was curled up on the couch a moment ago watching Game of Thrones. And the doorbell rang, and she's like, oh, my subs here. And she let me in, and she introduced herself. She said, you have to call me mistress. So I said, okay, mistress. And then she instructed me to go in the corner, take off all my clothes, put them in a pile, and then come sit at her feet. And I walked across the apartment, and as I walk over, I see on her coffee table, she's got every tool and implementation from this profession. There's whips, there's chains, there's nipple clamps, there's paddles, there's a kitchen whisk. For some reason, I'm like, none of this looks ticklish at all. And I sit at her feet. She's perched up high on the couch. And she says, okay, now we're going to do your pre interview. And I'm like, okay, I hope I get the job. And for the first 20 minutes, we just talk. It's like 20 minutes of talking. It felt like going to therapy. I mean, pretty soon I would be being led around on a leash on all fours in her apartment, but it was a lot like going to therapy. And she says, I see you have a wedding ring. Tell me about that. And I was like, oh, well, I'm in a don't ask, don't tell polyamorous relationship. This came about because my wife and I joined field so long ago. It was back when it was called Thrinder, when we started our account for those unaware. That's a sex app for meeting other partners to. To join, like maybe have threesomes or group play or whatever. We joined this site, but we never did anything. It was just this, like, hookup chicken that we played, but we never actually acted on. And then also one day we were walking around our neighborhood and we saw this sexy postal worker. This lady looked like if Meg the stallion retired from rapping and got like a practical day job. And I said out loud, I said, I would love to. To know what it would feel like for that lady to sit on my face. And my wife said, you know what, honey? Do what you gotta do. Don't ask, don't tell. And I told some version of those two bits of information to the dom. And she looked at me like, I don't believe that shit. But she changed the topic. She was like, so what are you here to explore? And I told her about the cross dressing and the kind of porn I was watching. And she said, oh, well, I have just the thing. And she went into a closet and got this old TJ Maxx bag. And she came out and she instructed me to stand in the middle of her living room and put on this lingerie and get dressed and listen to her orders. And I start doing it. I felt really embarrassed at first. I felt awkward. But then she told me I looked cute. And then she came close and we started joking. And as she's like putting the blindfold on and we're chatting and joking, she goes, well, it looks like you're enjoying yourself. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, honey, erections don't lie. I was like, have I heard that before? Erections don't lie. Is that Ralph Waldo Emerson? And for the rest of the hour, she walks me through all these different playful activities that are intense and fun and painful, and it was great. And it culminated with getting pegged on her couch while looking at the Long island railroad station in the Uber home. I made this deal with myself. I thought If I get home and my wife is not home from work yet, I'm not going to tell her. If she is home, I'm going to tell her exactly where I was. She was not home. And the next day came, and she didn't ask, so I didn't tell. Six weeks later, we're in the car. We're coming back to the city from a yoga retreat in upstate New York. We went to. It was this weekend full of, like, group physical activity and journaling, and we're cooking meals as a group meditation. We had all this amazing sex that weekend. I felt so connected to her. We're driving back to, you guessed it, Bushwick, and it's a clear blue sky, and it feels like the kind of weekend you just can't ruin. So I thought to myself, I gotta. I gotta tell her. So with 90 minutes left in the

[Patrick Holbert (Addendum)]

drive,

[Patrick Holbert]

I said, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, what? And like, she got tense immediately. Like, somebody says, I gotta tell you something. And so I wanted to fix the feeling of tension. So I was like, I think it's a good thing. And that's what you say when it's gonna make things worse. And I couldn't bear it anymore, so I just blurted it out. And I said, I went to a dominatrix last month. And she's like, what? I was like, yeah, I went to a dominatrix because I thought we had, like, permission to go do stuff with other people. And she's like, wait, what? You went to a. You went to someone's house? And I was like, yeah, but we didn't make out or anything. She just said. And I just started talking. I'm like, well, you know, because of the Thrinder and Meg thee stallion. And she's like, what? Wait, you went to someone's house? Did you have sex? And I was like, well, what is your definition of sex? I sounded like Bill Clinton during his impeachment trial. And she's like, penetration? Was there penetration? I'm like, yeah, but not on her. And I. I truly thought this was gonna be good news. I really thought this was gonna be me and expressing to her that, like, hey, I took the initiative we never took together on Thrinder. Like, this was me trying to bring her into my isolated sexuality. This was me exploring myself. I really thought this was gonna be great for us. I couldn't have been more off the mark. She was really angry, and it breaks my heart to remember her spelling it out while she was crying. She said, you know, you went and did this thing without even bringing it up to me. You removed the possibility of me having to give permission, which I probably would have. You removed the possibility of me even participating in it with me. And you lied about it for this whole month and a half since it happened, like you're a fucking liar. And so with another 75 minutes or so left in the drive, we didn't speak. And then we got home. She went in the bedroom. We have a one bedroom apartment. And I didn't see her for three days. And I thought I ruined my new marriage. And luckily I had these gigs out of town, so I went and did some shows for a couple nights. And she texted me while I was away and she said, I have gotten us an appointment with an alternative sex therapist. And so we started going to these therapy appointments where we were able to say out loud the kind of sex life we wanted to have, the kind of marriage we wanted to have. We opened the marriage. We both started having experiences separately and occasionally together. And she forgave me. She took that step and got this therapist involved and it repaired our marriage. And we went to this person for several sessions. And there were still some more untruths to share with her. Like, even after she forgave me, I had to admit to her that I didn't just go to the dominatrix once. I went twice. We work through that. And even now, all these years later, there are times where I struggle to be 100% honest about whatever's going on or whatever I want. And I think that's because erections don't lie. But people do. So this all happened eight years ago. We are now in the most tame, monogamish, domesticated version of our marriage we've ever been in. We have like adventures here and there, but most of our energy goes toward taking care of our five year old daughter. We have an apartment, we don't have a white picket fence. But we do have a dog whose name happens to be Peggy. Thanks so much,

[Kevin Allison]

Sarah. This is Katrina Stone behind me now. And we just heard from Patrick Holbert. Patrick also sent us an addendum recording I want you to hear after the show that night. Backstage, he told me he was bummed to have forgotten parts of the story while on stage. So I said, just send in a recording of what you might like to say to the audience about it. And here it is.

[Patrick Holbert (Addendum)]

I am here. Like any good stand up with regrets, things I feel like I up or missed out on during this performance. One of my favorite lines is, I thought My wife and I were polyamorous. It turns out you have to talk about this kind of thing first. That line is not in this episode. And I wish I would have been more on top of it the night of the show. In my defense, I did have laryngitis. I was quite sick and pretty miserable during that show. And also I was just really scared. I was scared to tell the very authentic and real version of this story. I had been doing stand up about it for seven years or eight years or whatever where I was just like saying the funny parts and amplifying the funniest parts. Like haha, I'm a crossdresser guy. Isn't wasn't kink funny? But this is like, no, this is how I convinced myself it was okay to cheat on my wife. So I was really in my head the night of the show. I flubbed a bunch of stuff and then there were some emotional beats that I missed. Like I, I set up this whole thing that I, I was mad at this guy who owed me all this money and I was white knuckling my career and I was treating all these anxieties with sugar addiction and I had a horrible body image and all that stuff. And then I forgot to say that when I was getting pegged, it, it helped me forget about all that stuff. I wasn't thinking about the guy who owed me money. I wasn't thinking about how I hated how my body looked. I wasn't thinking about any of it. And in fact, I didn't hate how my body looked. I felt pretty, I felt desirable. This sex worker made me feel attractive. And also I think it, it's just like the mechanics of getting pegged. A rubber dildo goes in your butt. It's gonna push everything out of your head. You don't think about anything because there's only one thing to think about. I think that is an emotional beat that I wish I would have hit because not everyone can. Can relate to wanting to go cheat on your wife and go to a sex worker. But everyone can relate to the craving and the urge and the need and the desire to be elsewhere to escape. So I wish I would have gotten that in there. I didn't. I will though, in the future because I am going to be working this show out as an entire solo show. This, this story that I told here on this episode is the first story of the whole thing. And there's a great handful of other encounters. The solo show is called Get Pegged.

[Kevin Allison]

Get Pegged is in the works. If you look him up at It's Patrick Holbert On Instagram. You can learn more about Get Pegged. It's a comedic show that explores kink, sexual identity, surviving infidelity and what it can mean to take it like a man. I'm grateful to Patrick for this story because I know a lot of couples who approach non monogamy under the parameter don't ask, don't tell. Many of them refer to it that way, but whenever I dig deeper and ask these friends how they negotiated those terms, it sounds like they kinda sorta barely did. As everyone knows, I'm a big believer in ethical non monogamy, but I have very mixed feelings and from personal experience about don't ask, don't tell, non monogamy and the way in Patrick's story that he was able to say I told myself we had an understanding, but I could have double checked on that. I'm a especially obsessed with this topic more than ever these days since I moved to Thailand because in Thai culture non monogamy is actually seen as kind of normal and even kind of acceptable as long as it's strictly don't ask, don't tell. And I feel like it makes so much confusion and disconnection and in cases where the truth does come out, heartbreak. It makes all of these things that much more likely in my perspective at least. And I also love when someone who has told a lighter and less complex and less intimate version of a story somewhere else dares to tell a less sugar coated version on Risk. It makes all the sense in the world to tell stories differently depending on who the listeners are and where you are with them. But I'm very proud that people feel like they can come on Risk and tell the most raw and real and sometimes messy version of their story. Folks, you can help keep such honest and intimate storytelling alive by supporting us [e-mail] risk you can become a member or increase your current donation amount there and it's free to write us a great review and give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser or Spotify. Here's a great one from someone calling themselves Weezer Fan on Spotify. This podcast has the best stories told by anybody about anything. I feel like I'm seeing through the storyteller's eyes and experiencing their feelings, which grows my empathy towards humanity. Thank you Kevin for starting this and thanks to you and the crew for keeping it running even in the hardest of times. I truly love this podcast. Thank you so much Weezer Fan. And folks, don't forget those online storytelling workshops of mine are coming up. My former student Russell said. I'm in awe of Kevin's ability to give guidance and support to such a diverse group of storytellers, including absolute Beginners. It's like attending your own live episode of the Risk podcast, except you also get to know the other storytellers and they get to know you. So there's two workshops starting in early September. Just email me at kevinrisk-show.com to learn more. Folks, today's the day. Take a Risk.

[Andy]

Sa.