Still Dog People: Two Truths

Summary

RISK! Podcast: "Still Dog People: Two Truths"

Guest Host: John La Sala
Co-Host/Guest: Kate LaSala
Featured Storyteller: Jill Carliner
Date: July 21, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this deeply affecting episode, guest hosts John and Kate LaSala present a standout story from Jill Carliner, highlighting the real-life trauma of a childhood dog attack and its long-term repercussions. The episode explores the complexities of grief, healing, and finding meaning in adversity—showing how a family’s traumatic encounter with a dog ultimately paved the way for a lifetime of positive relationships with dogs, fostering, and service to others. The hosts, both self-described "dog people" and professionals in dog behavior and pet grief support, reflect on the story's lessons and broader themes of resilience, responsibility, and transformation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jill Carliner’s Story: Trauma and Two Truths

[05:58–22:56]

• The Incident:
  • In 2000, Jill’s 4½-year-old twin boys were invited to play by older neighbor kids. Supervision was minimal due to the removal of a boundary hedge.
  • Unbeknownst to Jill, the neighbors’ Akita—"bred to be Japanese bear hunting dogs...big, powerful, aggressive, extremely territorial" (Jill Carliner, 08:36)—escaped when the children left the sliding door open for juice.
  • Jacob, one of Jill’s sons, was viciously mauled. The dog bit his shoulder, back, arm, and, worst, "a 3 inch by 5 inch flap of skin...shorn from his head, like...you open a can of sardines" (Jill Carliner, 10:23).
• Immediate Aftermath:
  • Jill’s training in first aid/CPR kicked in as she desperately called for help. Paramedics took Jacob to the trauma hospital.
  • The lost scalp was found in the trash after neighbors cleaned up, but surgery failed; Jacob spent weeks in a burn unit, undergoing multiple procedures.
• Psychological Fallout:
  • Both boys developed "a primal fear of dogs," panicking even at their sight or sound.
  • Jill (a child psychologist) implemented exposure therapy, gradually reintroducing dogs from tiny pet store puppies to volunteering as "Puppy Home Socializers" for seeing-eye dog agencies.
  • Over time, the boys—through repeated exposure—overcame some fears, eventually becoming foster family for prize breeding dogs for Guiding Eyes for the Blind.
• Long-term Impact:
  • A special bond developed between Jacob and Eileen, a retired breeder. "She didn’t want to be touched anymore...Except for Jacob...She spent most of his teenage adolescent years sleeping in his bed...Their bond was so beautiful." (Jill Carliner, 18:02)
  • 25 years later, Jacob carries both visible and emotional scars. Despite the trauma, dogs became a source of comfort and joy.
• Living with "Two Truths":
  • "Truth number 1: I wish my son had never been attacked by a dog...Truth number 2: For over 25 years, we’ve had a relationship with the most incredible dogs...And these are just two truths that I live with." (Jill Carliner, 21:36)

---

2. Expert Reaction: Kate LaSala’s Perspective

[26:41–43:00]

• Initial Thoughts:

  • Kate, a dog trainer and pet death doula, immediately connects the story to her own work with trauma, grief, and dog/child safety.
  • She emphasizes the episode’s core as a study of relationships—between children and peers, kids and dogs, humans and pets.
  • On Jacob’s outcome: Years later, he adopted a dog himself. "Dogs continue to be his sense of comfort and safety. I mean, she truly is an emotional support dog for him." (Jill Carliner, 28:13)

• On Finding Meaning in Trauma:

  • Kate references grief expert David Kessler’s concept of “finding meaning” after loss.
    • "Often [clients] can be thankful that animal maybe taught them patience or empathy...And now that they’ve learned that, they carry those lessons with them." (Kate LaSala, 32:11)
  • She draws parallels between her own journey (through loss of her dog Booboo) and Jill’s—how a single traumatic event can alter life’s trajectory in unexpected, sometimes positive, ways.

• On Dog Bite Prevention & Supervision:

  • Kate underscores the critical importance of active, awake supervision with children and dogs.
    • "Bites happen in a fraction of a second...if you’re not physically between the dog and the kid, you’re never going to be able to stop it." (Kate LaSala, 34:58)
    • She clarifies misconceptions: "[Many] think dogs should put up with whatever kids throw at them...That is not realistic and it’s not safe." (36:10)
  • Dog bite statistics: "Over 50% of dog bites happen to children...the largest percentage are boys between five and nine years old." (Kate LaSala, 36:22)
  • Even well-socialized dogs shouldn’t be left unsupervised with kids. Management alone is insufficient—mistakes happen.

• On End-of-Life & Legacy:

  • Kate demystifies her doula work, focusing on pets, not people. Roles include quality of life assessment, planning, guiding families through grief, and helping with memorialization.
  • Highlights the need for proactive planning for pets’ futures—who will care for them if you can’t? She offers free resources for creating advance directives for pets.
    • "I like to say that those are living documents...to be revisited every year or two." (Kate LaSala, 41:56)
    • Resource: rescuedbytraining.com under Free Resources.

• On the Akita and Cultural Gaps:

  • The Akita was euthanized. Neighbors attempted a culturally awkward gesture of apology with a fruit basket and champagne.
    • "People in general don’t know how to process death and grief...Clearly these neighbors knew they were responsible...and were in some way trying to make amends." (Kate LaSala, 39:41)

---

3. Notable Quotes

• On childhood’s magic and trauma:
  • "When you’re four, attention from a six year old and an eight year old is like magic." (Jill Carliner, 06:25)
• On the attack:
  • "I see my Jacob toddling towards me and he is covered in and gushing blood." (Jill Carliner, 07:30)
  • "The most significant injury was this...flap of skin that was just shorn from his head...The way you open a can of sardines— that’s what the dog did to my son’s head." (Jill Carliner, 10:23)
• On finding meaning in loss:
  • "There was nothing selfless about [fostering dogs]. It was very selfish. We got so much purpose and joy and love in our lives from the dogs that we’ve had." (Jill Carliner, 21:16)
• On supervision and prevention:
  • "Bites happen in a fraction of a second...If you are not physically between the dog and the kid, you’re never going to be able to stop it." (Kate LaSala, 34:58)
• On pet planning:
  • "Having a care plan in place...not a lot of people do." (Kate LaSala, 42:10)

---

4. Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [05:58–22:56]: Jill Carliner’s full, uninterrupted story—harrowing, heart-wrenching, ultimately hopeful.
• [28:08]: Audio update from Jill—Jacob now has his own dog; dogs are a positive force in his life.
• [32:53–37:19]: Deep dive into dog bite prevention, family responsibility, and supervision best practices.
• [39:12]: Jill confirms the Akita was euthanized; neighbors’ awkward attempt at apology.
• [42:39]: Kate’s free resource plug for pet care planning and dog body language course.

---

Conclusion & Next Episode Teaser

John La Sala closes with encouragement for listeners to share their own dog stories or reflections, promising an upcoming companion episode featuring a story from the "Bitey End of the Dog" podcast, offering another valuable perspective on dogs and trauma.

---

For Listeners

• If you’re grappling with pet trauma, grief, or planning end-of-life care, visit rescuedbytraining.com for free resources.
• Share your thoughts, stories, and responses via email, Facebook, Reddit, or by tagging #ihearditonrisk.
• Remember: responsible supervision and proactive planning are essential for safe, enriching relationships between children and dogs.

---

Authentic, raw, and redemptive, this episode of RISK! exemplifies the show’s credo: true stories you never thought you’d dare to share—and how telling (and hearing) them can change lives.

Transcript

[John La Sala]

On this episode of Risk, you'll hear Jill Carliner.

[Jill Carliner]

And he's squeaky and his tongue is coming out. Oh, yeah. I think we made a big mistake.

[John La Sala]

And you'll hear Kate Lasalla.

[Kate LaSala]

That's me.

[John La Sala]

Hey, that's my wife.

[Kate LaSala]

Hey, that's my husband and me.

[John La Sala]

I'm John La Sala, your guest host along with Kate on the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare. Best thing that's ever happened to you financially.

[Benjamin Boster]

Go easy.

[Jill Carliner]

Sold my car on Carvana.

[Benjamin Boster]

Amazing offer, really.

[Jill Carliner]

I hit 200 on a scratcher.

[John La Sala]

Did the scratcher come to your house

[Jill Carliner]

and hand you a check?

[Benjamin Boster]

No.

[John La Sala]

How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.

[Jill Carliner]

Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win.

[Benjamin Boster]

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

[John La Sala]

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about.

[Jill Carliner]

Sell your car today on Carvana.

[John La Sala]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Kate LaSala]

If you've ever blasted synth beats from your boombox or burned CDs for your besties, this one's for you. As people get older, much like their music tastes, their health needs change.

[Jill Carliner]

AG1 is the simple daily health drink designed to deliver over 75 essential daily

[Kate LaSala]

nutrients in pre and probiotics to support energy, digestion, and mood so you can

[Jill Carliner]

make the most out of every decade and dance break. Learn [e-mail].

[John La Sala]

Welcome to the I Can't Sleep podcast with Benjamin Boster. If you're tired of sleepless nights, you'll love the I Can't Sleep podcast. I help quiet your mind by reading random articles from across the web to bore you to sleep with my soothing voice. Each episode provides provides enough interesting content to hold your attention and then your mind lets you drift off. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's I Can't Sleep with Benjamin Boster.

[Benjamin Boster]

Hey, do you have trouble sleeping?

[Jill Carliner]

Who, me?

[Benjamin Boster]

Yes, you. Trouble sleeping? Oh, yeah, sometimes. I just have a lot of stuff on my mind. You should try the sleepy Podcast.

[John La Sala]

The what?

[Benjamin Boster]

The Sleepy podcast. It's where host Otis Gray reads old books in a low, rhythmic voice to help you get to sleep. Classic books like Pride and Prejudice, Winnie the Pooh, Sherlock Holmes just softly read bedtime stories for grown ups. Okay. I mean, I need to run some errands. I'll listen to an episode in the car.

[Jill Carliner]

I think you're really, really good.

[Benjamin Boster]

No, dude. You shouldn't operate heavy machinery when you're listening to sleep. Oh, dear. Well, let's just hope he gets home alive. But the bigger point I was trying to make, folks, is that for years, Sleepy has helped millions of people catch some much needed Z's and start their day off fresh and discover old books they didn't know they'd love. Whether you're having trouble sleeping or just like a good bedtime story, fluff up the cool side of your pillow and tune into Sleepy. Unless you're driving. I nodded off there. Yes, sir. But listen, folks, you can listen to Sleepy on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts new bedtime stories every week.

[John La Sala]

Hey, Kate, Recognize this music?

[Kate LaSala]

I sure do.

[John La Sala]

What is it?

[Kate LaSala]

Snow Queen.

[John La Sala]

It's Snow Queen.

[Kate LaSala]

It's Snow Queen.

[John La Sala]

Yes. It's music I wrote back in like 1998 or 99 somewhere around there. Music for a dance theater production called the Snow Queen.

[Kate LaSala]

That means we're really old.

[John La Sala]

Yes, but that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about the first of two episodes coming out this week called Still Dog People. The second one comes out on Thursday, but this one features a story by Jill Carliner, after which Kate and I are going to talk about it. Because it's about dogs and we're dog people. We're dog people. But Kate even more so because. Well, you tell me why, Kate. Why are you here?

[Kate LaSala]

Because I'm a professional dog trainer and behavior consultant. And I'm even a pet death doula.

[John La Sala]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We'll talk more about that later. But for now, let's get into Jill's story. But I do need to give everyone a heads up. There is blood in this story. There is a life threatening situation involving a kid. There is trauma, but you've heard worse on risk at this point. I know you'll be fine. But still, heads up. So here is Jill Carliner with a story we're calling to truths.

[Jill Carliner]

It was a Tuesday night in early May. The year is 2000, and my four and a half year old twin boys had just finished eating dinner and we were playing outside in the front yard to wait until dad got home from work. And while we're playing on these boulders in front of my house, the big kids from Nick's door came out to see what we were doing. These were the six and eight year old boys that lived next door and my kids called them the big kids and they'd moved up from the city a couple of months before, but they'd never really shown any interest in my children before. So on this night when they came out to see what we were doing, my kids were mesmerized. Because when you're four, attention from a six year old and an eight year old is like magic. On this night, they asked if my boys wanted to play in their backyard. Now, like I said, this family had moved up from the city a few months prior. And one of the first things they did when they moved in was to rip out this fence of bushes that separated our properties. So my backyard and their backyard was just this one big giant space. But even though we could see into their yard, we'd never played with them before. So when they asked my boys to come play, I remember my kids looking up with like the most magical and hopeful looks in their eyes. And I said, sure, why not? And as we made our way to the big kids backyard, one of my boys, Jacob, said to me in his cute little four year old voice, mommy, is this something special? And I said, yes, Jakey, this is very special. So we're in the backyard. The big kids have a really nice setup. They had swings and monkey bars and sledge, things we didn't have in our yard yet. And they climb on their swings and my boys climb on a teeter totter. And the four of them, they're just hanging out, they're playing, and I'm the only adult watching them. And while I'm supervising, I'm just thinking of all the things I need to do before bedtime. So I tell my boys that I'm gonna go inside. You see, I have this big picture window over my kitchen sink. With the bushes gone, I had a perfect view into the big kids backyard. So I told the boys I was gonna go in like I've done before. And they gave me, okay, mommy. And they were good kids. They knew to stay in the yard. So I'm at my kitchen sink and I'm cleaning up their dinner dishes and I'm thinking about all the things, you know, that need to get done. Getting dinner table for my husband and me. And I see the big kids get off their swings and leave the vision of the picture window. And moments later, I see my kids get off the teeter totter and they also leave the vision of the picture window. So I figure I need to go check out what's happening. But in the seconds that it took me to go from my sink to my sliding glass door, I heard this blood curdling scream just pierce that spring night. And I run outside to see what made that sound. And I see my Jacob toddling towards me and he is covered in and gushing blood. I run to him and I scoop him in my arms. And my first aid and CPR training kicks in. And I scream at the top of my lungs, call 91 1, call 911. Call 91 1, hoping someone in my neighborhood would hear me scream. And as I'm screaming, I look over to the big kids yard. And on their porch is a woman standing there. I think she's their housekeeper. And she is just staring at the ground. She's not looking at me, she's not moving. She's definitely not reaching for a phone. So I realize I need to take matters into my own hands. And while I still have Jacob in my arms, I run in my house, I grab my cordless phone to call 911, and I run on the front lawn to wait for them. And the whole time I have him in my arms. And his eyes are open and he's breathing, but he's not talking, he's not crying. He's just kind of limp in my arms and he's staring into like, nothingness. And as I'm rocking him on the front lawn, my nose is filled with that coppery metallic smell of blood. Our bodies are glued together from the stickiness of the blood. And I just keep saying over and over again, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And I realize I'm saying this more for myself than for him because he just can't process anything. I don't know why he's bleeding. I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if my son is dying in my arms. All I know is that we need immediate medical attention. And I am so relieved when I hear the sounds of the ambulance. So the paramedics assess him and tell me that we're going to go to the trauma hospital in my county. And when we get there, the doctors examine him and the police speak to me. And the police had been at my house also, and they're able to tell me what happened. Apparently the big kids got off their swings to go in their house for some apple juice boxes. And my kids, with the promise of apple juice boxes, got off the teeter totter to wait. But when the big kids went in their house, they left their sliding glass door open and their Akita ran outside. Akitas are bred to be Japanese bear hunting dogs. They are big, they're powerful, they're aggressive, they're extremely territorial. And this family often kept their dog chained to the shed in their yard. And when this Dog ran out and saw my little boy standing in his yard. He just knocked him down and started attacking him until their housekeeper pulled the dog off of him. Turns out the dog bit Jacob on his shoulder and on his back and on his arm. But the most significant injury Was this like 3 inch by 5 inch flap of skin that was just sharp, shorn from his head. Picture the way you open a can of sardines, the way you kind of like roll the lid of the tin down. That's what the dog did to my son's head. So the plastic surgeon who examined him was hopeful that if we could retrieve this skin, he'd be able to reattach it. And they radioed back to the house where the police were. And it turns out the neighbors had come home from work and cleaned up the blood and thrown away the bloody rags and my son's skin, with his beautiful little hair attached to it, into a garbage in their shed. So the skin was brought to the hospital and Jacob was rushed into emergency surgery. And my husband and I were at his bedside when he woke up from anesthesia. And he was in that state where his eyes were open and he could talk, but he wasn't fully conscious. And his little body just started shaking and he started crying out, no, no, the dog. Stop. And it was chilling to stand there and watch my little boy have these flashbacks. And there was nothing I could do to stop the visions that were going on in his head. So unfortunately, that first surgery didn't take. The skin was too badly damaged. And Jacob ended up spending almost two weeks in a burn unit in the hospital. And he had multiple surgeries and multiple medical procedures. A lot of the time there, though, he was just this cute little four year old boy. He'd sit on his bed, playing with toys, watching movies. His head was wrapped in this big turban of bandages. But the nights were really hard. He would wet the bed every night and he would wake up with these night terrors, screaming, no, no, the dog. Every night. And during the day, as happy as he was when he was playing, if anyone came to the room, he would just start crying and shaking in fear. In an instant, his little world went from being this safe, happy place to being a world that's dangerous and unpredictable and hurtful. And as much as we tried to protect him and tell him things were okay, he just couldn't differentiate anything that was coming at him as being safe or harmful. It was so sad to watch. I hoped that when we got home from the hospital, we could return to some Normal routine. And for the most part, we did our best. My kids went back to preschool and my husband and I went back to work. And taking care of Jacob's injuries just became part of our daily routine. But the thing is, my kids, both of my kids, developed this primal fear of dogs. We could be anywhere. We'd be playing in the house, walking on the street, even driving in the car. And they'd hear a dog or see a dog and they would start crying and screaming in fear. And it seemed to just keep getting worse and worse. And I knew we couldn't live this way. So I happened to be a child psychologist by training. And when my husband and I got married and we had kids, I promised him I would never practice my profession on our children. But I needed to take back my words. So I prescribed exposure therapy. There was this cute little ma and PA pet store in town that sold these little tiny teacup puppies. So on a Sunday morning a couple of weeks after Jacob's dog bite, we bundled the kids in the car, we went to bagels for breakfast, and then we took them to this pet store and we get inside and we each hold a boy up to the display counter where the puppies were. And the minute they realized what they were looking at, they started squirming and crying and begging us to take them out of the store. But we kept doing this. Every Sunday morning we'd go for bagels for breakfast and we'd go to the pet store. They'd protest, but we would do this anyway. And after a while, they were okay looking at the puppies. There was even this one time that the owner of the store was able to hold a puppy in his hand and they pet it, but you know, this was a puppy that was the size of a hamster. So while they were okay, they were still really scared of dogs. So I knew we needed to up our game. There is a seeing eye dog agency in our county that relies on volunteers to do a lot of the work with their dogs. So we signed up to become Puppy Home Socializers. It was a program where you would get to take 8 week old lab puppies home to your house for a couple of days and play with them and socialize them. So we signed up, we went for some training, and on a Friday afternoon, all four of us, the boys were kind of into it. All four of us drove about an hour to pick up everything we needed and pick up the puppies. And we get home and we set up this ex pen and we lay out the Newspapers and put down some toys and water. And I take a puppy out of the carry case and let me tell you, an eight week old lab puppy is just about the cutest thing in the whole wide world. His little body was wiggling back and forth and his pencil thin tail is going a million miles a minute and he's squeaky and his tongue is coming out and I put him down on the newspaper and the minute their feet hit the floor, my kids ran screaming out of the kitchen into the living room. They climbed on the back of the couch and wanted nothing to do with these puppies all weekend. Oh yeah, I think we made a big mistake. But we kept doing this. About once a month for years we would bring puppies into our house. And it got to the point where my kids were able to hold them and cuddle them and play with them. I mean, they were even okay when the puppies nibbled on them with their little razor sharp puppy teeth. So this was really good. So it was a July 4th holiday about two and a half years after Jacob's dog bite. And we had puppies in the house for about five days this time because of the long holiday weekend. And when we returned them, we all kind of looked at each other and were like, huh, our house feels empty. We miss having the puppies in the house. And it was like we knew that we wanted a dog. We were ready. So we signed up to become foster parents to breeding dogs through Guiding Eyes for the Blind. These were dogs that were raised to be seeing eye dogs. But when they were about a year old, instead of going into graduate school to learn how to use a harness, they were chosen to be breeders because they were the smartest and the best, well trained. They performed well on their tests. Basically, we got the Rolls Royce of dogs and that is how we got Zoe and then Queenie and Eileen and Nilla. And currently we have Nani. It has been over 20 years that we've been fostering, breeding dogs for Guiding Eyes for the Blind. And my kids have grown up taking care of pregnant dogs, taking care of and playing with puppies. We've even had the litters in our house for weeks at a time. One of our dogs in particular, Eileen, she was a really good breeder. She had big litters and her puppies always did well with testing. But when she was 6 and she was retired, we adopted her. We always adopted them when they were retired and it was like she knew that her job was done and she didn't want to be touched anymore. And no one could pet her or scratch her behind the ears without her getting super anxious. Except for Jacob. He was the only one that she, like, cuddle and snuggle and hug. She spent most of his teenage adolescent years sleeping in his bed, spooned up against him like a girlfriend. It was like they knew that there was so much safety and comfort and security in each other. Their bond was so beautiful. My boy's recently turned 30. It's been over 25 years since Jacob's dog bite. If you were to meet him, the first thing you would notice are the visible scars on his face. He continues to carry visible scars, and he will for the rest of his life. What you would not notice initially are the emotional scars that he continues to carry. You know, at 4, he experienced this childhood trauma that was just unthinkable. And unfortunately, it changed the trajectory of his life. We would see time and time again how he would just react to things in such a way that he thought he was under attack or was being hurt or harmed. And no matter how much my husband and I protected him and tried to keep him safe and tried to give him the coping skills, it was just a part of his DNA. It's just how he views the world. You know, I've had to learn to live with two truths. Truth number I wish my son had never been attacked by a dog. I wish he never had to go through this trauma. I wish our family never had to go through all of this. Truth number two. For over 25 years, we've had a relationship with the most incredible dogs that have gone on to do remarkable things and have saved people's lives by becoming guide dogs. You know, people have always said to us how selfless we were for fostering dogs. And I would smile and say thank you because, yes, I was doing a volunteer job, but let me tell you, there was nothing selfless about was very selfish. We got so much purpose and joy and love in our lives from the dogs that we've had. And yes, it's not lost on me that the thing that has brought my son and our family the biggest trauma also brings us so much love and joy. And these are just two truths that I live with.

[John La Sala]

Hey, it's John again. We're gonna take a quick break, but first, check out this little review I spotted that someone named Boggle Queen left on Apple podcasts. It's titled Expands my Perspective. I have been listening to Risk for a long time and appreciate the authenticity, intimacy, vulnerability, and breadth of stories shared from a multitude of perspectives. This podcast is so valuable and has greatly expanded my understanding of different people's experiences. My favorite episodes are the Uninterrupted Stories. Was this episode an uninterrupted story? I'm not sure what was meant by that, but I hope this one worked for you. Boggle Queen and hey you listeners out there, if you haven't given us a five star rating or or left a review yet, get on it. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, podchaser, these reviews are one way you can send us your love and support and even get yourself heard on the podcast for absolutely free now.

[Benjamin Boster]

We'll be right back. Hey folks, I want to talk to you about the Perfect Gene. I have always struggled with the fact that I have no butt, I'm a bit chubby, and I guess my size is a little unusual in terms of like big waist and not so long legs. You know, I'm really making myself sound awesome here. But the fact is I've always been impatient when shopping. I get very. When shopping, I'm not a. I don't like shopping. So many, many, many, many, many times I have just settled for jeans that really don't fit very well or are a slightly just not quite the hue, not quite the color that I'm really looking for or sometimes even not quite the texture I'm looking for. So the Perfect jean set me up. They don't cut corners either. Ykk zippers, reinforced belt loops, deep pockets that actually fit your phone, your keys, your wallet and such a range. Waists from 26 to 52 lengths from 26 to 38, six fits from skinny to thick, thick 13 washes. It's over 5,000 combinations. I also love these athletic comfort shorts they have. So listen, Risk listeners get 15 off their first order plus free shipping at the Perfect Gene NYC. Or Google the Perfect Gene and use the code risk 15 for 15 off. That's the Perfect gene.

[John La Sala]

A big thanks to Taj Easton for sound designing that story. Kate, do you know what this is? You're not sure?

[Kate LaSala]

It's the Sorceress.

[John La Sala]

The Sorceress? What do you mean the Sorceress? What's that from?

[Kate LaSala]

From the Snow Queen.

[John La Sala]

Yes it is. It's more of my music from the Snow Queen. But nevermind that. Let's talk about Jill's story. What did you think? But wait. First, in case anyone listening to this episode didn't hear the episode you did with me back in 2024 called Dogs, why don't you give me like all your bona fides? You know who made you the expert of dogs? Around here,

[Kate LaSala]

I am a multi credentialed behavior consultant and I have more letters behind my name than are in my name.

[John La Sala]

Okay, so Jill's story, what did you think and like, what were your reactions while listening to it?

[Kate LaSala]

Yeah, so my focus is fear and aggression and anxiety cases. So I deal with a lot of dog bites. So I had a lot of questions and thoughts about this story, but my first question is, do we know how Jacob is now? Do we know what his relationship with dogs is now like after their last call?

[John La Sala]

That was like many years ago too, right? So yeah, we do. Because when I was recording the story with Jill, I asked her some questions afterwards and she addressed that a bit. It didn't end up in the story, but I do have the recording. So let's listen to it right now.

[Jill Carliner]

About a year ago, Jacob and his girlfriend adopted a dog. So he also has a dog. And, you know, dogs continue to be his sense of comfort and safety. I mean, she truly is an emotional support dog for him. It's just so interesting that, you know, the thing that, like I said, was the biggest trauma brings him so much joy in his life, but it was a lot of work to get to that.

[Kate LaSala]

All right, okay. So that's amazing and I think it's a good place to start, really. I feel like on the surface this story is very clearly about trauma, but underneath it all, it feels like it's a story about relationships. Like the relationship that her kids wanted to have with the big kids next door. It's about that very brief and very traumatic relationship with this neighbor's dog. And then it's about relationships with all of these fosters and dogs that they ended up adopting. And now his relationship with this very special dog that he has, this ESA dog that he has. And I think that trajectory is just so beautiful. You know, that's what Jill said. That this event changed the trajectory of his life is something that I say when I talk about Booboo, who we lost two years ago, that without Booboo coming into our lives, that I wouldn't be a trainer today, I wouldn't be a death doula, that she change the trajectory of my life. And that's exactly what Jill said about this experience for Jacob. And I think that's a really interesting sort of juxtaposition of like that traumatic situation that he had with this dog changed his trajectory in a negative turning, positive way. But Booboo coming into our lives changed the trajectory of our lives in a very clearly positive way. And that I've gone On to now help over 3,000 dogs because of this one dog coming in my life, and that they, as a family, fostered all of these dogs and changed not only the lives of those dogs, but the people that those dogs then went on to be service animals for.

[John La Sala]

Yeah. An awful, tragic thing happened, and so much more good than bad has come from it in the long run.

[Kate LaSala]

Mm.

[John La Sala]

Now, you. You do a lot of work with grief around losing a pet, but I take it you see some parallels to what Jill's family went through, right?

[Kate LaSala]

Yeah. Yep. And in my doula work, that's something that I sort of focus on and try to help people understand. You know, everyone's heard of the stages of grief, but David Kessler is a grief expert who worked with Kubler Ross. He co authored a book with her, and they sort of came up with this sixth stage of grief that nobody really talk. But for David Kessler, that sixth stage is finding meaning. So taking this loss or this trauma, and what sort of meaning can you pull out of that? So when I talk to my doula clients, I'm often trying to get them to shift from grief to gratitude. How can we be grateful? Obviously, no one's ever grateful that a bad thing happened. And that's Jill's main point is like, I wish this never happened, but because it happened, all of this beauty and positivity came out of that. So there's definitely this shift of finding meaning from this trauma. And even without having big trauma like that, I think when we lose an animal or we lose any relationship, we can try to find something that we're grateful for because of that experience. So even when I'm working with clients who've gone through something traumatic, like a behavioral euthanasia for a really difficult, you know, animal that had significant behavior issues, often they can be thankful for the fact that that animal maybe taught them patience or taught them empathy or taught them how to read dog body language better, how to more safely interact with dogs. And that's something that that person may be. Would never have learned. And now that they've learned that, they carry those lessons with them into future relationships, whether it's with other humans or other dogs.

[John La Sala]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's circle back to the incident, the inciting incident of the story. What are your thoughts about a child being put in such a predicament? I know you have thoughts on this.

[Kate LaSala]

Yeah.

[John La Sala]

You have lots of opinions.

[Kate LaSala]

I have. I have a lot of opinions. So, yeah, this is something that I talk to clients about. I'm a family PAWS licensed educator and so I do a lot of dog kid situations, whether it's pre baby prep, meaning there's a dog at home and the family is bringing home a human baby. So I'll help the family prepare the dog at home to accept the newborn. But I also do a lot of dog kid aggression cases. So I am constantly talking about the role of supervision. And we tend to think of supervision as like black or white. Either we're supervising or we're not supervising. But Family Paws has five stages of supervision that they talk about. And it, it runs from sort of fully awake aware adult supervision, which is active, to absent supervision, which could be you think you're supervising cause you're in the same space but you're sleeping. And if you're sleeping, you're not fully awake, you're not aware that whatever's happening between the dog and the kid are happening. So I feel like this situation and then there's gray areas in between, there's reactive supervision and passive supervision and there's other steps in between. But I feel like this situation was an absent supervision case where Jill thought she was supervising from her kitchen window. She very clearly pointed that out in the story. But as we can see, bites happen in a fraction of a second. And if you are not physically there, not six feet away, not five feet away, a lot of people make the mistake that they think they're in the same room, they think they're supervising. I'm right here, I'm right in the kitchen and my back is to the dog and the kid. So if something's going to happen, I can intervene. But bites happen so quickly that if you are not physically between the dog and the kid, you're never going to be able to stop it. So being a house away, looking out a picture window over her sink as she's doing dishes or whatever she was doing, that is not good enough supervision.

[John La Sala]

But I don't think she even knew the dog was there though, right?

[Kate LaSala]

Well, she pointed out that the dog was often tied to the shed. So I think they knew there was a dog, but maybe they just thought it was a wet. I don't know.

[John La Sala]

She didn't see the dog, she didn't know it was around, right?

[Kate LaSala]

Yeah, she didn't know it was around. And clearly it was. It had probably been in the house. And then when the kids went in the house to get the juice boxes, you slipped out. And you know, management always fails. That's something else that I talk to clients about. Like people think like, oh, we'll just keep the dog inside, we'll just manage that situation. But we're humans, and management always fails. Like, it might be okay for a long period of time, but at some point a door is gonna be left open, a gate's gonna be. Humans make mistakes. And so management cannot be your only solution if you're living with a dangerous or an aggressive dog. Even well socialized, quote unquote. Good dogs should not be left unsupervised with kids. So I think we come from a place of thinking that dogs should. Good dogs should put up with whatever kids throw at them. They should be able to pull their tail and pull their ears and they should be able to climb on top of them and the dog shouldn't react at all. But that is not realistic and it's not safe. And when we look at dog bite statistics, over 50% of dog bites that happen happen to children. And the most, the largest percentage of those cases are boys between five and nine years old.

[John La Sala]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate LaSala]

So having young kids, they may not have fully developed motor skills. They are certainly not going to be able to read dog body language. A lot of adults, adults don't know how to read dog body language. So we can't entrust that a kid is going to be able to read warning signs that a dog is getting stressed out. But I don't think that that piece doesn't necessarily apply to this case. It sounds like the dog was probably already aggressive and saw an opportunity and got loose and just sort of rushed out and was not social or friendly with strangers. So that sounds like that was the underlying sort of cause of this situation. But whenever there's kids around, there needs to be heavy focus on management and separation and supervision.

[John La Sala]

So you mentioned a couple times your doula work, but to be clear, we're talking death doula, end of life doula, not like birth doula.

[Kate LaSala]

Right, right. And for pets, not for humans. So I am a companion animal. End of life doula, death doula, we like to call ourselves. It's shorter and cleaner. That means that doulas, deaf doulas, provide emotional support. In this case, even though it's surrounding the pet loss, the support obviously is for the people. We can do lots of take on lots of roles. We can focus on sort of quality of life assessment, helping navigate that before period, that anticipatory grief period leading up to the animal's death. We can help with arrangements like coordinating a vet to come to the house to do that at home euthanasia. We focus a lot on sort of legacy work and Memorialization. And I think for this story, it's really interesting because all of these dogs in their family, the ones that they fostered and eventually adopted, and certainly the Akita that caused this tremendous injury, all leave this long lasting impact after they're gone. This trauma that this one dog caused left this legacy of beautiful things behind, you know, in that wake. And that legacy isn't just those physical scars that he has, but the emotional scars. And that's something in my doula work that I help, especially with stigmatized losses like behavioral euthanasia. And I'm going to assume in this case that Akita was euthanized. He should have been if he wasn't.

[John La Sala]

Yep. And that's another little clip I have. I asked Jill exactly that question and this is what she had to say.

[Jill Carliner]

And in case you're wondering, the neighbors put the dog down. They were immigrants to this country, so I'm not sure they knew some of American cultures. About a week after Jacob got home from the hospital, they came to the door with a fruit basket that had like fruit and crackers and cheese and a bottle of champagne. It was just really weird. Yeah.

[John La Sala]

Yeah.

[Kate LaSala]

That's bizarre. That's bizarre. Yeah. You know, people in general don't know how to process death and grief. That's part of the role that duelists play as people and animals. Exactly. Is to sort of help people normalize this. And we're trying to bring death work and talking about death into the forefront so it's not a taboo topic. So clearly these neighbors knew they were responsible for this trauma inflicted on Jill's son and her family and were in some way trying to make amends or apologize for that. And if there was a cultural difference there, they just didn't quite know how to properly do that. So it came off a little awkward, I think. But people don't like to talk about death. They don't like to plan for death. That's one of the things that doulas do, is try to help sort of, for lack of a better word, get your papers in order. So thinking about if your 15 year old dog has cancer, what treatments are you willing to do? Or not willing to. Are you willing to do MRIs? Are you willing to do CAT scans? Like talking about these things. Things not when they're 15 and you're in the crux of making these big emotional decisions, but talking about these things when they're a puppy, when they're, you know, two or five and constantly evaluating quality of life over, you know, that dog's Lifetime, because it changes year to year and not waiting for a big crisis to start having these conversations. So I think I've got some free downloads on my website. I have sort of the equivalent of a living will, like an advanced care directive for pets for people to start those conversations. And I like to say that those are living documents that they should be revisited sort of every year or two so that you can figure out what's changed. Making a plan for your pets. What if your pets outlive you? Yeah, we think about this for senior citizens, but anyone can get in a car accident or anyone can lose a job or anyone can have, you know, a serious illness. So what is your care plan for your animals if you are physically or otherwise unable to take care of them and not just assuming that friends and family are going to step up, because that's not really a fair burden to place on these people who didn't choose to take on a pet. So having a care plan in place, I know that I am in two of my clients who have turned into friends wills to be caretakers for their dogs if something were to happen to them. And they are young people, they're in, you know, they're in their 30s. So they have proactively made arrangements for their dogs in case something were to happen. And I think that's something enough that not a lot of people do.

[John La Sala]

And you said you have those available somewhere people can download them?

[Kate LaSala]

Yep. I have on my website rescued by training.com at the top there's a free resources tab and there's a whole bunch of free downloads in there. I also have a free dog body language course in there. So if you like dogs or have a dog and.

[John La Sala]

Or just want to get to know dogs better.

[Kate LaSala]

Exactly. Just want to know how to speak dog a little bit better. It takes about 30 minutes to go through it, but it's a really great, if I do say so myself, free resource to learn that, you know, kissing dogs, licking you, what we call kissing and wagging their tail, is not always a sign of a happy dog. Common misconception.

[John La Sala]

So that's what Kate had to say. It went on for like two hours because she just won't stop talking. But I had to cut it down to the mere minutes that you heard. But more importantly, I want to know what you, the listeners, have to say. Weigh in. Come tell us what you thought. Share your dog stories, even the ones that don't bite. You can email me at johnisk-show.com or even better, post on our private Facebook fans discussion group or on the R riskpodcast subreddit or Spotify. Whatever scritches your britches. I don't know. Whatever scritches your britches. And if you're gonna post on social media about it, just hit it with the hashtag ihearditonrisk. Now, listen, I said up top. This is just one episode coming out this week called Still Dog People. On Thursday, there'll be another one, and that one will feature story from a different podcast called the Bitey End of the Dog, which I just happen to also work on. And it'll feature a not too different story, but from a very different kind of perspective. Tune in, you'll see. But that'll be Thursday. Whereas today. Well, today's the day. Say it, Kate Taker. Ask. That's right.