Sweet Sixteen

Summary

RISK! Podcast – Episode: "Sweet Sixteen"

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Kevin Allison
Featured Guests: Sean Mallon, Risk Listeners, Jill Carliner, Axel Lundstrom

---

Episode Overview

The "Sweet Sixteen" episode celebrates a milestone—the 16th anniversary of the RISK! podcast. Host Kevin Allison, now settling into a new life in Thailand, revisits the show's legacy, shares fan reflections, and gives the floor to both new and classic true stories that capture RISK!’s trademark blend of hilarity, vulnerability, and the unexpected. Special focus is given to what the show means to the community, storytelling as connection, and how uncensored truth-telling continues to break new ground in podcasting. The episode closes with an in-depth chat with Sean Mallon, author of "Podcast Pantheon: 101 Podcasts That Changed the Way We Listen," recognizing RISK!’s impact on audio storytelling.

---

Key Discussion Points & Notable Segments

1. Setting the Stage: 16 Years of RISK!

• [04:28] Kevin Allison reflects on the show's birthday and proud inclusion in Sean Mallon’s new book.

  "We’re calling this week's episode Sweet Sixteen because this episode just happens to be dropping on October 6, the actual 16th birthday of this podcast."

• Acknowledgment of the podcast’s evolution and its lasting influence.
• Announcement: Video version of Kevin’s chat with Sean Mallon will be available on YouTube.

---

2. Listener Testimonies: The Podcast’s Personal Impact

a. Sam's Nostalgic Reflections

[06:23] Sam – Longtime listener since the 2000s.

• RISK! stood out among the earliest podcasts for discussing topics seldomly touched by mainstream media.

  "I loved Kevin’s show Risk because it, you know, it talked about things you would never hear on NPR, which I think was one of his taglines."

• Early episodes like "Kevin Goes to King Camp" and "the guy who was stung by a scorpion" were especially memorable.
• Appreciation for Kevin’s bravery in hosting honest, revealing stories.

b. Bridget’s Story: Solace in Shared Stories

[07:24] Bridget – Listener since 2009, post-breakup.

• Podcasting comforted her during a lonely period; Risk made her feel "less alone, less broken, and more hopeful."

  "Hearing other people tell their stories at a time when I couldn't tell my own gave me so much solace that I wasn't alone."

• RISK!’s authenticity resonated during her personal reinvention.

c. Marie’s New Beginnings

[32:33] Marie shares how leaving a ten-year marriage and restarting her life coincided with discovering RISK!

• The podcast’s early episodes helped her through insomnia and dramatic life change.

  “Listening to those early shows, I laughed when people laughed. I cried when people cried. And I knew that I wasn’t alone, and I knew that I was going to be okay. All I needed to do was learn to take more risks.”

d. Scott Howell on Community & Comfort

[34:33] Scott Howell – Reflects on finding his tribe through RISK!

• Listening to the show during his father's cancer diagnosis brought catharsis and connection.

  “The more stories I heard, the more comfort I felt, the more at ease I felt... it started helping with things like anxiety and stuff. And that’s what truly I love about the podcast…”

• Praises Kevin’s humility and genuine connection with his audience.

e. Margaret’s Anniversary Message

[52:21] Margaret – Salutes the show’s range and diversity of storytellers.

• Recalls being especially moved by Lily Taylor’s story about her father’s bipolar disorder.
• Fondly remembers Kevin’s quirky ads:

  “I especially recall with fondness the stamps.com ads... he would sing RISK!... I have loved the podcast dearly, and I’m so glad you’re here. And again, happy 16th anniversary, RISK.”

---

3. Feature Story: “Save a Prayer for Jill”

[10:18] Jill Carliner recounts an intensely relatable coming-of-age story from 1983.

• At 16, Jill struggled with feeling left out as her best friends obsessed over Rick Springfield and Duran Duran.
• Peer pressure leads Jill to her first rock concert at Nassau Coliseum, surrounded by teenage hysteria and her friends' musical passions she doesn't share.
  • Vivid description:

    “My experience of hearing live music was you sit in your seat, you listen to the music with your program on your lap, and you politely clap when it’s over. And here they are talking about like running around this arena.” [Approx. 13:56]

  • Left alone during the show, Jill spirals into adolescent angst, imagining a life forever friendless and alone.
  • The catharsis comes during an encore of "Hungry like the Wolf," as Jill decides to join in, dance, and basks in her friends' affection moments later.

    “I realize it doesn’t matter what music I listen to, doesn’t matter what music they listen to. My friends love me for who I am.”

  • Reflection on adulthood and dancing uninhibited at concerts now, regardless of what others think.
• [28:45] Axel Lundstrom:

  “Music. Music can totally do that to you. I mean, yeah, it just brings you back. And I gotta tell you, I don’t listen to Duran Duran. If it comes on the radio, I have to turn it off. Like that’s how traumatizing it was.”

[58:26] Jill’s Follow-up:

• After sharing this story in Kevin's workshop, her friends learned of her decades-old feelings of abandonment and apologized, highlighting the extended impact of teenage experiences.

---

4. Host Story: “What’s in the Box?”

[36:00] Kevin Allison tells a raw, hilarious, and cringe-inducing tale from his own youth.

• At 16, deeply closeted and love-struck at his all-boys Jesuit school, Kevin becomes infatuated with Jason, a sweet, athletic student.
  • Over-the-top puppy-love results in playful bullying (calling Jason "Sputum"), which Jason counters with “stupid human tricks” (spitting minuscule droplets at Kevin during lunch).

    “If you spit at me one more time, I’ll mail you my poop.” [Approx. 41:02]

  • True to his word, Kevin concocts an outrageous prank: mailing Jason a Tupperware container of his own feces, labeled “enjoy the cookies.”
  • Jason opens the package in front of his mother, cementing the prank—and Kevin’s legend—at school.
• Kevin’s later reflection in therapy weighs the motivations for his actions, ultimately attributing it to longing, embarrassment, and the desperate swing between vulnerability and defense so common in adolescence.

  “I had overshot revenge. You know, it was no eye for an eye. I’d given him like a whole torso.”

• In classic RISK! fashion, the story blends the mortifying with the heartwarming, ending on a note of self-acceptance and humor.

---

5. RISK! Workshops and Community Building

[08:41] Kevin Allison shares updates about expanding RISK! storytelling workshops into new levels and time zones, aiming to grow community and encourage more stories globally.
> “Once I’m settled in Bangkok, I’ve decided I’m going to start planning on expanding those into three levels... Level 0, Level 1, Level advanced... and create social events where people can continue making friends and checking in.”

---

6. Special Feature: Interview with Sean Mallon

The Podcast's Place in History

[59:23 onward]

• Sean Mallon, author of "Podcast Pantheon," highlights how RISK! stands as a pillar of audio storytelling and why it was chosen for his book.

  “It was like a no brainer because when people ask for things, of course they want to hear what’s the new show. But I go, oh no, you should go back and listen to this episode of Risk.” [61:22]

• Kevin affirms the show’s indie credentials and enduring innovation.

  “It has always felt like the kind of punk...the redheaded step cousin of shows like This American Life and The Moth.” [69:20]

• They discuss RISK!’s commitment to unvarnished storytelling unconstrained by traditional broadcast rules:

  “Here is a show where we don’t have to do what storytelling shows that are looking to get on NPR would have to do because of standards and practices and everything else.” [64:56]

• Mallon marvels at RISK!’s ability to continually surprise its audience, avoid formula, and maintain a space for discomfort and delight.

  “My true blue belief is that people will never stop being surprised by it, which is why it’s a worthy art project.” [73:01]

• Kevin shares how international expansion (Thailand) will spark creative renewal for the show.

  “I’m really hoping that some very new stuff happens because of it, you know, me being on the other side of the world.” [75:41]

• Sean notes podcasting’s global boom and predicts future success for RISK!’s new phase:

  “I predict that not only will this be a successful venture for you and for Risk, but I think...it’s going to be creatively really invigorating for the show.” [78:54]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Take a risk.” — Kevin Allison’s closing note, echoing the show's ethos. [54:50]
• “If you spit at me one more time, I’ll mail you my poop.” — Kevin Allison, summing up the absurdity and honesty of teenage years. [41:02]
• “Music. Music can totally do that to you. I mean, yeah, it just brings you back.” — Axel Lundstrom [28:45]
• “Risk made me feel less alone, less broken, and more hopeful about my future.” — Bridget [07:24]
• "Only one person on earth: Kevin Allison." — Jason's reply to his bewildered mother after opening the infamous package. [45:20 approx.]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:28] Kevin Allison intro & Sean Mallon’s book mention
• [06:23] Listener feedback: Sam’s call
• [07:24] Listener feedback: Bridget’s call
• [08:41] Kevin on workshops/community
• [10:18] Jill Carliner’s “Save a Prayer for Jill”
• [25:42] Jill’s concert follow-up
• [32:33] Listener: Marie’s call
• [34:33] Listener: Scott Howell’s call
• [36:00] Kevin Allison’s story: “What’s in the Box?”
• [52:21] Listener: Margaret’s anniversary wishes
• [54:50] Kevin invitation to watch YouTube chat
• [58:26] Jill’s story follow-up
• [59:23] Begin Kevin & Sean Mallon’s interview
• [79:28] Episode close with optimism for the future

---

Tone & Style

The episode maintains RISK!’s signature warmth, wit, and authenticity—a balance of humor, candid confession, and emotional depth. Kevin’s voice comes through as inclusive, vulnerable, and ever enthusiastic for the thrill (and healing) of storytelling.

---

Conclusion

The “Sweet Sixteen” episode of RISK! serves as both a retrospective and a lively, loving celebration. It honors how storytelling can connect, heal, and surprise us—and marks not the end, but an exciting new chapter, as Kevin and the show continue to “take a risk.”

Transcript

[Kevin Allison]

Hey folks, this is Kevin. As you've probably heard, I've moved to Thailand and the podcast is continuing. And right now I'm probably still trying to settle into wherever it is I'm actually gonna live. And suffice it to say, hosting episodes of Risk isn't super duper feasible just right this minute. But this is a momentous episode. So I've traveled from the past where I'm living in New York City to bring you our 16th anniversary episode. Sweet sixteen.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Sweet sixteen.

[Kevin Allison]

Sweet sixteen. Sweet sweet sixteen. Sweet sixteen. Sweet 16. Sweet 16. Sweet sixteen. Sweet sixteen. Sweet sweet sixteen. Sweet 16.

[Sean Mallon]

Sweet sixteen.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Sweet sixteen.

[Kevin Allison]

Sweet sweet sweet sweet sweet sixteen. Sweet sixteen. Sweet sixteen. That and more. But first, do you have a story about a time where you thought, how did I get here? I never imagined I'd be doing this. See if you can remember things you saw, things you or others said, things that ran through your mind or your heart at that time. And maybe there's a story there. It's easy to pitch us at risk-show.com submissions. We'll be right back.

[Axel Lundstrom]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Kevin Allison]

Listening to this podcast Smart move.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Being financially savvy.

[Kevin Allison]

Smart move. Another smart move Having State Farm help.

[Axel Lundstrom]

You create a competitive price when you.

[Kevin Allison]

Choose to bundle home and auto bundling.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Just another way to save with a personal price plan.

[Kevin Allison]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by customer availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms effortlessly. They do not always show up on.

[Kevin Allison]

Time, but when they arrive, you notice.

[Axel Lundstrom]

An individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu.

[Kevin Allison]

Miu defined by you right now at the Home Depot shop Fall savings and get up to 40% off select appliances like Samsung. Upgrade your kitchen this fall with the Samsung bespoke four door refrigerator now featuring the dual auto ice maker with sphere ice only. At the Home Depot, you'll have perfectly chilled drinks for every gathering. Don't miss fall appliance savings at the Home Depot offer valid October 2nd through October 22nd US only. C Store online for [e-mail], it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail], the only thing we treat better than windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 50% off primetime deals and free professional installation rules and restrictions apply. Now here's the show.

[Sean Mallon]

I took a.

[Kevin Allison]

Rest.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Sa.

[Kevin Allison]

Foreign this is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison and this is Axel Lundstrom behind me now. We're calling this Week's episode Sweet Sixteen because this episode just happens to be dropping on October 6th, the actual 16th birthday of this podcast, which is planning on lasting another 16 more or something like that. I have to say, I am so proud that we are in a phenomenal new book that you really should pick up called the podcast pantheon 101 podcast that changed the Way We Listen by Sean Mallon. And you know, back in the day, we used to be in articles that list the best podcast of the year all the time, but in more recent years, you know, less. So those articles are really meant to call attention to what's shiny and new. So it was such an honor to be included in this book about the most groundbreaking, the most influential, the biggest heavy hitters in the historical evolution of podcasting so far. It's so well written and we're in such great company. And we're going to include my chat with Sean Mallon, the author of the podcast Pantheon, at the tail end of this episode. And we'll also put the video of our chat on our YouTube channel at risk show. Now, to celebrate our sweet 16, we asked you to send us your own feelings about Risk after all these years. Let me share a couple with you now. First, we're going to hear from Sam, and then we'll hear from Bridget.

[Sean Mallon]

Hello, my name is Sam and I'm a very longtime listener of Kevin Allison's show Risk. I started listening to podcasts in the 2000s, and Risk was for me contemporary with Huck Allison Rosen, this American Life, Adam Carolla show, Kevin Smith's podcast. And these are all the things that were on my playlist at the time. And I loved Cavan's show Risk because it, you know, it talked about things that you would never hear on npr, which I think was one of his taglines. Episodes that stuck out are obviously for me, the early ones like Kevin Goes to King Camp, I think it was called, and the other one about this guy who was stung by a scorpion while he was in the jungle somewhere and he thought he was gonna die. There were so many, but those are the ones that stuck out for me. So I just want to say, like, I love Kevin and the bravery of hosting this show and putting out all these magnificent stories.

[Risk Listeners]

In 2009, I was working to put my life back together after a breakup. This breakup was difficult, as most are, but it was also complicated in some ways that are definitely not typical. And the end result was that there were things that I just couldn't talk through and process with friends in the way that you would do after a relationship. Relationship ends. I was going to the gym a lot during this period to help with my mental health. And even though I didn't really feel like working out, I could usually motivate myself by finding a podcast to make the hour of treadmill running bearable. Finding Risk for the first time added a whole new level to this routine that I had carved out for my recovery. Experiencing this new thing that was launching itself right as I was trying to reinvent and make sense of my own identity made me feel particularly connected to this community. Hearing other people tell their stories at a time when I couldn't tell my own gave me so much solace that I wasn't alone. Knowing that there were other people out there with wild, messy, difficult stories. Risk made me feel less alone, less broken, and more hopeful about my future. I'm thankful that Risk was born at exactly the right time that I needed to hear it, and it's kept me moving forward through the many phases of my life since.

[Kevin Allison]

I'll tell you, I cannot get enough of hearing just that sort of thing from our listeners. Thank you so much to Sam and Bridget. Another thing that's made me feel so connected to Risk listeners this past year is the online storytelling workshops I've been teaching, which have been so powerful and therapeutic and from which lots of new potential Risk stories were workshopped to. So once I'm settled in Bangkok, I've decided I'm going to start planning on expanding those into three levels. Level 0, level 1, level, you know, advanced, whatever, and find ways to do some that work for some people in some US time zones and create social events where people can continue making friends and checking in and sharing stories and giving one another supportive feedback. So stay tuned to hear news of all of that once I'm settled. Okay, so in a little bit we're going to hear from me, but before that, a story from Jill Carliner. Now, Jill told a bunch of amazing stories in one of my online workshops this year. But the main event of this story took place when she was 16. Is a very 16 year old kind of experience. Here's Jill now with a story we call Save a prayer for Jill.

[Axel Lundstrom]

It's 1983 and I'm 16 years old and I have these three best friends, Laura, Amy and Kathy. And we do everything together. We're in classes together, we're in all the same after school activities. We're in band and chorus and theater. We're together on the weekends. We talk about everything together. We talk about boys, we talk about clothes, we talk about our future, we talk about boys. I mean, these girls are my ride or die. Except there's one thing that they share that I'm not a part of. They are in love with Rick Springfield. They have loved him since his days on General Hospital as Dr. Noah Drake. And when he started coming out with music, they became super fan girls. I mean, they had his picture in their lockers and on their notebooks. They subscribed to teen beat and tiger beat magazine. They knew all the biographical information about Rick Springfield. They were crazy about him. They were all convinced they were gonna fall in love and marry him. And I didn't like that kind of music. I also didn't understand the idea of a celebrity crush. I mean, I was just this regular 16 year old kid from Long Island, New York. I was never gonna meet a celebrity. No one was ever gonna marry me and fall in love with me. It just didn't seem to make sense to waste my time and energy to go gaga over a celebrity. So when my friends got tickets to see Rick Springfield live in concert, I didn't really care. But the thing is, they came back to school after this concert and it was like this life changing event for them. They couldn't stop talking about this concert. They were talking about the songs he played and the outfits he wore and how cute he was, and they made up these dance moves to his music. But the worst part was they created this club, rsraf. Rick Springfield rules all forever. And they wrote rsraf all over their notebooks and in their lockers. They even wrote it in pen on their jeans. And everyone at school knew that they were part of this rsraf club. And everyone kinda knew that I wasn't. So like, I felt like there was this disconnect between me and my friends. But it was more than just Rick Springfield, because in the 80s, there was also this radio station on Long Island, WLIR, and it played this new progressive Music that was coming over from the uk. It was full of, like synth and reverb, and it was kind of emo and a little poppy. It was bands like Depeche Mode, the Psychedelic Furs, Echoing the Bunnyman. And as much as I tried to listen to this music, I just didn't like it. And it's not that I didn't like music. I mean, I did. I was actually a musician. I had been studying classical piano since I was about 8 years old. I was really good at it. And my parents would often take us to hear live music. We went to Lincoln center to hear Mozart. We went to Carnegie hall, and I'd listened to a beautiful Beethoven symphony. And I had a huge record and tape record collection at home. I love Broadway show music. I was really into the Rocky Horror Picture show and I liked rock and roll. I listened to the who, I listened to Genesis, and I love Freebird by Lynyrd Skynyrd. That was like my all time favorite song. I had it on tape and I would, like play it by loop over and over and over again. So, you know, the more my friends were into this WLIR music, it just felt like we weren't connecting. And there was this other band that WLIR was really pushing, Duran Duran. My friends were crazy about Duran Duran. They loved them. They had their picture in their locker next to Rick Springfield, and they knew all the Duran Duran songs. And again, I just didn't get this kind of music. But when Duran Duran announced that they were coming to Nassau Coliseum and my friends were getting tickets, they said, you gotta come with us. And I felt like my high school career was like hinging on being at this concert. So I agreed to go. And as it turns out, there were six of us that agreed to go. It was Laura, Amy, Cathy, myself, and our friend Tanya and her boyfriend Brian. Now, Tanya and Brian, they were that high school couple who were always going out, getting in a fight, breaking up, making up, you know, you know, those kind. They just were really annoying. And the thing is, Tanya was being raised by her grandparents and they were very overprotective. And she wasn't really supposed to have a boyfriend. So anytime she and Brian were together, they were constantly sucking face. I mean, they were doing PDA before PDA was even a thing. And incidentally, I knew what it was like to kiss Brian, because a couple of months ago we were cast in our school production of Oklahoma, and my character had to kiss his character. So during rehearsals, we always just practice going cheek to cheek. But at Opening night, he came at me with this open mouth, wet, sloppy tongue down my throat kiss. I mean, it was a mouth assault. I was so disgusted. I don't know what Tanya saw in him. So anytime I saw them making out, I was just really grossed out. So we get to Nassau Coliseum, and I'd never been to a rock concert before. And I'd never even been to a sports arena before. I was so overwhelmed. When we got there, the crowds were just insane. There were like thousands of people milling around and the smell was like popcorn mixed with hamburgers and stale beer. And the New York Islanders played at this arena, so it had like that underlying stinky locker room smell. So I grabbed my friends hands and I just let them like weave me through the crowd. I'm just like taking in all the sights and sounds. And we make our way to our seats. And we're in the highest section, you know, the section people call the nosebleed seats. And we get there and I sit down and like, I can barely see the stage. Tanya and Brian like immediately start making out. So Laura, Amy, Kathy are to my left and I turn to them and they are talking about rushing the stage. And I have no idea what they're talking about, but they explained to me that at the Rick Springfield concert, they left their seats, they went down to the floor, and they got as close to the stage as they could. And I was appalled by this. I'm like, no, this is my seat. Like, my experience of hearing live music was you sit in your seat, you listen to the music with your program on your lap, and you politely clap when it's over. And here they are talking about like running around this arena. And even though it's the 80s and security wasn't much of a thing, I was like, no, we're gonna get in trouble. So even though I was protesting this, my friend's like, we're gonna do it anyway. The next thing I know, they said, all right, well we're going, we'll be right back. So they left and I am at this arena sitting with three empty seats on my left and this couple to my right who is just making out like crazy. So the lights go down in the Colosseum and Duran Duran takes the stage. And the stadium just erupts with thousands of teenagers on their feet. They're screaming and they're crying and they're calling out the band members names. And I'm like, what is going on? And I can't see the stage, so I stand up because I the kids in front of me are like crying and hugging and I'm like peeking around them to try to see. And I feel like there's this spotlight on me. I feel like everyone in the arena isn't watching the stage. I feel like all eyes are on me, on this loser pathetic teenager who's standing at a concert alone, who has no friends, who's just by herself. And the more I start thinking about this, the more I start getting, like, belligerently angry in my head at my friends. I'm like, how could they do this to me? How can they leave me? Well, I'm gonna show them I don't need them anymore. I don't need friends. I'm gonna go through high school without friends. I'm gonna show them that I can just be me and I'm gonna survive and be I am better without them. But then the anxiety kicks in and I realize I'm going to have to navigate high school without friends. Like, I'm not going to have friends to talk to in class. I'm not going to have anyone to pass notes to me. I'm going to have to drop out of all my after school clubs because no one wants to talk to me. I'm going to go through life without friends. I'm never gonna get a boyfriend. I'm never gonna go to college. I'm never gonna get married. I'm gonna be this, like, spinster aunt who lives this lonely life the rest of my life. And I'm just feeling so pathetic and sad and abandoned. And I start spiraling and I'm like the most depressed I've ever been. And I look around at everyone who's just having fun with their friends. And I'm surrounded by these empty seats and to the right of me is Brian and Tanya. At this point, I think he has his hand up her shirt. I'm like, what am I doing here? And the concert seems to come to an end. Duran Duran stops playing and I just collapse in my seat. I am emotionally exhausted, except no one else sits down. Everyone is still standing and they're screaming for the band. And they come out again. I'm like, what is going on? Is this night ever gonna end? And they start playing music again. And I listen because I actually recognize that the song they're playing. You know, my friends played this music all the time, so some of it did seep in. And I realize I know this song. They're playing Hungry like the Wolf, and I look around at what people are doing and they're dancing, they're wiggling their hips. Their arms are in the air. They're just having fun. And I think to myself, all right, I'm going to try to do that. So I take, like, a couple of dance steps. I wiggle my hips. I kind of put my hands in the air. But now I feel like that spotlight is on me again. I feel like everyone is watching this awkward, uncoordinated, spazzy teenager who's just trying to fit in. And everyone knows that I don't fit in, that I'm just this loser, that I shouldn't be at this concert, that I shouldn't have friends, that I am just pathetic. And Duran Duran finally stops playing, and the lights come on. And, like, suddenly my friends are there, and they're sweaty and their hair is plastered against their face, and they're just talking over each other about how they got down to the floor and they waved at the band and one of the band members winked at them. And they are convinced that Duran Duran is in love with them and they're all gonna get married to them. And, like, they're going on and on. And I'm just looking at them thinking, why are you guys telling me this stuff? Don't you know what a loser I am? Don't you know we're not friends anymore? You don't want to be my friend? Who wants to be my friend? I am just nobody. But then something happens. They come close to me, and they throw their arms around me, and they start telling me how excited they are that I was at this concert with them. And they're like, oh, my God, this is amazing. We share this experience together. This is so great. We're going to remember this for the rest of our lives. And Tanya and Brian, like, suddenly look up and they say, is it over? And we all just burst into laughter. And I realize it doesn't matter what music I listen to, doesn't matter what music they listen to. My friends love me for who I am. But the thing is, this experience really traumatized me for a long time. And, like, I never went back to a rock concert till I was almost out of college. But now, as an adult, I love going to hear concerts, but I hear the kind of music I like. I've seen what's left of the who. I've seen Genesis. I've seen Billy Joel. I even have a little celebrity crush. I got a thing for Sting. I travel the country to see him. And I know I'm never going to meet him. He's never going to fall in love with me. But he's nice to look at, and he's really nice to listen to. So a couple of months ago, my husband and I went to a concert at the Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut. The headliner was Boy George of Culture Club. Now, I'm not a big Boy George fan, but the opening band was Squeeze.

[Kevin Allison]

They do it down on campus.

[Axel Lundstrom]

It was this 80s band that I listened to a lot in college, and that's who I really had gone to see. So Squeeze takes the stage, and I am on my feet. I'm letting loose. I'm dancing. I'm having so much fun. It's, like, super nostalgic for me. I'm back in my dorm room listening to this music with my friends. I'm dancing at college parties to it. It's just great. But the whole time Squeeze is playing, there are these two ladies behind me, and they're just talking. They're talking about vacations, they're talking about their kids, they're talking about getting their hair and their nails done. I mean, they could be at a coffee shop having lunch, not a concert. So Squeeze is done, and they turn the lights on in the arena and the stage so the roadies could change the stage for Boy George. And one of the ladies leans forward and she taps me on the shoulder, and she's very Long Island. And she says to me, honey, you look like you were having so much fun. That band, that Squish Band, I don't really know their music, but, you know, you were having fun. You were doing your dancing and your wiggling. But the thing is, I love Boy George, but I couldn't see the stage because you were doing your dancing. Me, I got a bad hip. I can't be standing up. Do you think maybe we could switch seats? So I smile at my husband and I look at the women and I say, of course I do not want to ruin your concert. Except experience. So we switch seats, and Boy George takes the stage, and they sit there listening to the music. And they politely clap when he's done. And I am on my feet, wiggling and dancing, and my arms are in the air and I don't care who's watching me.

[Kevin Allison]

You saw me standing by the corner.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Of a meeting and the lights are.

[Kevin Allison]

Flashing under your window sill. All our name was fun so you're.

[Sean Mallon]

Looking for the blue and you know just what it takes Sunwear to the.

[Kevin Allison]

For you don't say a breath of me now Save it till the morning after now say a breath for me now sa.

[Axel Lundstrom]

And music Music can totally do that to you. I mean, yeah, it's just brings you back. And I gotta tell you, I don't listen to Duran Duran. If it comes on the radio, I have to turn it off. Like that's how traumatizing it was.

[Sean Mallon]

Thank you.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh boy. We'll be right back. When did making plans get this complicated?

[Axel Lundstrom]

It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.

[Kevin Allison]

Event invites and pin messages so no.

[Axel Lundstrom]

One forgets mom's 60th and never miss.

[Kevin Allison]

A meme or milestone.

[Axel Lundstrom]

All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Kevin Allison]

Learn more at WhatsApp.com abc Wednesdays Shifting gears is back.

[Sean Mallon]

He has arisen.

[Kevin Allison]

Tim Allen and Kat Dennings return in television's number one new comedy.

[Axel Lundstrom]

What what?

[Kevin Allison]

With a star studded premiere including Jenna Elfman, Nancy Travis and. Hey buddy. A big home improvement reunion. Welcome.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Oh boy, that guy's a tool.

[Kevin Allison]

Shifting gears new Wednesdays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Finally in your wellness era, then you.

[Kevin Allison]

Know gut health is gut wealth. And with 20 years of science behind it, Activia can help keep those good gut vibes going.

[Risk Listeners]

Delicious, smooth and creamy Activia probiotic yogurts.

[Kevin Allison]

And dailies have billions of live and active probiotics and help support gut health while you go about your day.

[Risk Listeners]

Your gut is where it all begins.

[Kevin Allison]

So start with Activia.

[Axel Lundstrom]

Enjoying Activia twice a day for two.

[Kevin Allison]

Weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle can help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort. We're back. This is Risk. This is PNFA behind me now. Now, one reason to join the Risk Patreon is because I sometimes do these very personal and unfiltered check ins there about my life, the behind the scenes stuff going on with the staff, the world we live in now. If you like to hear men crying sometimes, I do that there. And I promise I will put one out there the week that this episode goes out to say how I'm doing in my very first days in Bangkok. So join our Patreon or increase the amount of your [e-mail] risk and here's two more risk listeners sharing what these 16 years of the show have meant to them. We're gonna hear from a fella from my Hometown of Cincinnati, Mr. Scott Howell. As you know, I love meeting fans of the show and I remember meeting Scott for the first time when Risk did A show In Cleveland about 10, 12 or so years ago. But first, we're going to hear from a Risk listener named Marie.

[Risk Listeners]

In the summer of 2010, I left my husband of 10 years. I moved out of my home. I got a crappy little apartment. I got a different job. And for the first time since I was a teenager, I was dating again. You know, that summer, I also developed a terrible case of insomnia. Laying there alone in the wee hours of the morning was just more than I could handle. So I started listening to podcasts. One of the podcasts that I listened to had actually recommended Risk as a show that listeners of that show might like. So I decided to give it a chance. Much to my surprise, it was exactly what I needed and definitely not what I expected. Listening to those early shows, I laughed when people laughed. I cried when people cried. And I knew that I wasn't alone, and I knew that I was going to be okay. All I needed to do was learn to take more risks. So in the years since, I've done a lot with myself. I got two extra degrees, I moved halfway across the country. I got married again, and I opened a substance abuse treatment center in the middle of a pandemic, which might not have been the best idea I've ever had, but, hey, I gave it a shot. I took the risk, and I'm a better person for it. I'm a better person because of this show. So thank you from the bottom of my heart to Kevin and the rest of the team that makes the show possible. Thank you so much.

[Kevin Allison]

I felt very at ease when I first started listening to Risk. I felt like I had found my people, so I'd found comfort in listening to this stuff. And the more stories I heard, the more comfort I felt, the more at ease I felt. And, you know, I realized it started helping with things like anxiety and stuff. And that's what truly I love about the podcast, you know, where we can connect on a deeper level, even if we don't meet in person. You know, or sometimes, you know, the universe lines up and we do meet in person. It's very cathartic connection with the podcast, especially, you know, when my dad was diagnosed with throat cancer, I'll never forget, you know, I just jumped into a bunch of Risk podcasts and just, you know, immersed myself in other people's stories and their feelings and emotions and their vulnerability, and it helped comfort me through kind of a rough time. On top of that, too, there's a whole second side of it where, you know, just that connection with Kevin Allison. You know, he's so down to earth. He'll call you back. You know, I've zoomed with him a few times. You know, I've met him in person many times. He's. He's just so humble and down to earth and, you know, I just, I love him to death. I'm just glad I, you know, I'm able to share my happiness and appreciation and respect for the Risk podcast. Thank you guys so much. Those were both so sweet. I'm so honored when people share like that. I love when people talk about Risk being helpful to them during hard stretches of their lives, because I get it. I was just joking about the times I've cried in my Patreon, check ins, or even on the podcast itself. But yeah, we're all here for each other through thick and thin. Okay, now we're gonna hear a story from me. I once told a super duper short version of this at a Risk live show. As the host of the show, sometimes I'll just say a little something in between the storytellers while I'm introducing them. So this was just like an improvised little anecdote that I told hosting the show one night maybe in New York, I guess. And Isabel Cohn of the website slate.com wrote to me and said, can you turn that little anecdote I remember you telling into a story for Slate? And it was fascinating because in the process of having to answer her editorial questions about my first draft, I started to have so much of a better understanding of this thing I did when I was 16. Which is why workshops are so great for creating stories, because careful listeners always have the best questions to ask the storyteller. So without further ado, here I am with a story we call what's in the Box? Have you ever had that thing where you have a crush on someone but your annoying to them, like on purpose or even mean to them? You know, that's like 9, 10 of 10 things I hate about you. Well, I once had such a crush on a guy, I mailed him my poop. It was 1986 and I was 16. It was a pretty nerve wracking time to be gay because all you ever heard in high schools at that time about homosexuality were cruel jokes about aids. So I kind of stayed in the closet in my Jesuit academy. I say kind of because I was also like a kid in a candy store. It was an all boys school. And by sophomore year I was becoming known to be kind of like Animal from the Muppets at School, you know, just playing pranks, acting a fool. And a lot of that, I think, was really to get my mind off having the hots for half the student body. But one guy especially made me light headed. His name was Jason, and he was what we now call a short king or fun sized. And he was also quite fit from being on the wrestling team, which I never saw him do. That would have hurt. Required attending a sporting event. No. We met in rehearsals for the spring musical. I tried not to swoon over him too publicly, but it was just too much. He had big brown eyes, a bubble butt, a kind of pooh bear. Cuteness all around. And for a dude who played a sport, he was nice. Everyone loved him. He was cheerful and affectionate and smart with a joke, like me. So he liked me right back to a point. Oh my God. I remember laying in bed fantasizing about the two of us getting married, which also involved fantasizing that it would be possible one day for two guys to get married. And also involved fantasizing that he didn't have a girlfriend. That's the thing about fantasies, they come with a lot of plot holes. So, yeah, to be completely honest, by the end of sophomore year, I think everyone knew how I felt about him. No one said so, you know, but it was super hard to miss. I would talk cutesy to him all the time, like he was the world's most adorable puppy. I'd call him sputum, which is not cute. It's a word we came across in a biology class and it literally means like mucus that you spit up. So it's not cute, but. But I thought it sounded cute. So I would call him Spewdum. And, you know, he would ignore it as much as possible. He'd roll his eyes, walk away. But then he started with the spitting. Actually spitting doesn't quite capture what it was. Just like sputum doesn't quite capture what he was. See, all the theater kids at my school sat in the same few tables in the same part of the cafeteria every day, and we would joke around. We were always talking about Letterman on tv, how he was doing all this nonsense that, that was really new for that kind of format at that time. Like stupid human tricks. That was a recurring bit. People would squirt milk out of their eyes or, you know, stop ceiling fans with their tongues. And one day at the table, Jason said, I can do a stupid human trick. And I said, do it. I was always so supportive of his passions. He said, I already did. I just spat in your face. I was clueless. I didn't know what he was talking about. He was dying laughing. You missed it. He said, look, I'll do it again. And then with this weird open smile and his teeth clenched shut, he made a little sound. And this time I felt it right in the eye. Jason could spit the teensy tiniest saliva droplets through a gap in his front teeth that was so small I'd never noticed it. And I'd spent a lot of that year studying his smile. So now the guys at the table start saying, do it again, do it again. And leaning in for a closer look. And like it was payback for all the times I'd made his eyes roll with my cutesy talk, Jason locked in on his target. Me. I kept wiping barely perceptible tiny droplets off my face until finally, that creepy clenched smile and those pinprick hits got me kind of seeing red. And suddenly I found the words coming out of my mouth. If you spit at me one more time, I'll mail you my poop. And he did. Then the bell rang and everyone ran back to class, and I was flustered. I had been the center of Jason's attention for almost a whole lunch period, but I wasn't thrilled with the vibe of it. I guess I felt ashamed, you know, like he was signaling from the lookout of his castle that I should not come any closer. And why had I said I'd mail him my poop? Where did that come from? Then I thought, you know, it would be the most outrageous of pranks. You know, my. My thing. That was my passion, pranks. It would be the weirdest revenge ever. So I told myself I'd give it a month, hoping that in that time, he'd completely forget about the whole thing. One month later, I had cooled it on the lovey dovey stuff, the spewdum and all that, and Jason and I were getting along again. Nevertheless, the more I thought about the poop, the more it made me laugh. And was I not good for my word? So the plan was to float a Tupperware bowl in our toilet at home and poop in it, hoping it wouldn't bounce off the rim. And it turns out I was good at hitting targets, too. It was a healthy and ample production. So I pulled the bowl out of the toilet and closed the airtight seal, which I was counting on to lock in the smell. And I put a post it note on the lid, which were brand new at the time. All the rage. Post it notes. And I wrote, enjoy the cookies on it. And I wrapped it all up in a shoebox and addressed it to Jason and handed it directly to the clerk at the local post office just before they closed on, like, a Tuesday afternoon. Wednesday and Thursday at the lunch table were uneventful, but on Friday, Jason showed up looking at me like I was possibly insane. He said very flatly, enjoy the cookies. And I just exploded with laughter. And everyone leaned in again and he. He laid into one hell of a story. Jason had gotten home from school the day before, and his mom had the package for him waiting on the kitchen table. She said, jason, something's come for you. Do you know what it could be? He didn't. In that month's time, he'd forgotten. So she stood over him to watch the unboxing, and they were both excited to learn it was cookies. Then he peeled back the lid. He said, the smell hit us both like a nuclear blast. I almost dropped the box on the floor, he said. He slammed it shut and ran out to take it to the garbage while his mom was still. Still in shock in the kitchen. She was asking, who could possibly do such a thing? And he rolled his eyes. He said, only one person on earth, Kevin Allison. So it kind of became the stuff of legend at our school. And I remember in my 40s, I was seeing a sex therapist just because, you know, I mean, he was a general therapist, but because I am who I am, he was also a specialist. And he said, well, you were in love with this guy and you sent him your poop. You don't think that might have been kinky? But no, I had not felt that way. I mean, I. That just. I was not conscious of that sort of thing at all, you know. So what really was it about? You know, at the time, at 16, I had claimed that the poop was revenge, you know, for the spitting. But I mean, it was just. It was too much for that. I had overshot revenge. You know, it was no eye for an eye. I'd given him like a whole torso. But I think I was embarrassed and ashamed about this crush that I couldn't help but be obvious about and that, you know, was unrequited. And then the sophomore in me, you know, just had to have the last word, had to make it boys will be boys, 16 year old insanity. And of course, the stupidest human trick. This is Risk. This is Magnus Moon behind me now. And we just heard from, from me, your favorite poop mailer. But only when I myself was like, risk is now 16. Let's hear one more clip from You. The last one is so cute. It. It comes from a Risk listener named Margaret.

[Risk Listeners]

Happy 16th anniversary, risk. I'm so grateful that Risk is still here after 16 years. And I'm not surprised either, because Risk is just a wonderful podcast. When it came out in particular, it was like nothing else that was on the air at the time. I like to listen to selected shorts, and I still do occasionally, because I love a good story, but Risk is just something special. Risk covers such a broad range of. Of topics and has such a diverse group of storytellers. I mean, you really do hear people from all genders, all sexual orientations, all races, ages, different parts of the world. You just really do get a range of storytellers. And it was really hard for me to do this intro because I couldn't focus on a particular story that I had heard in the beginning. I just couldn't remember. There were so many details, and I wasn't sure exactly when I'd heard what. But the one story that keeps resurfacing from the early days that I remembered was the story that Lily Taylor told about her father and his struggles with bipolar disorder. And the story focused on one particular manic episode that was quite scary and dangerous, and it was just so beautifully told, so skillful, and yet at the same time, so real and raw. I was very moved. I also, over the years, have really loved Kevin Allison's stories. Kevin is just such a lovely person, and I really enjoy his humor, his candor, and I love the sound of his voice. I especially recall with fondness the stamps.com ads, and I think it was sort of like a Joanne Worley or Whirly kind of sound that Kevin would make when he would sing Risk. I might even attempt it. Here is he would say, enter Risk. I'm not a theater kid, so that's the best I could do. Anyway, I have loved the podcast dearly, and I'm so glad you're here. And again, happy 16th anniversary, risk.

[Kevin Allison]

So funny. Yeah. There are so many memories of the show over the years, and that's why I love when we run those entire. When we rerun those entire old episodes episodes on some Thursdays. Thank you so much to Margaret and to everyone who sent in those little snippets. And don't forget, we're going to include my conversation with Sean Mallon about his fabulous new book that you really got to pick up. It's called the podcast pantheon 101 podcast that changed the way we listen. It's so great, and we're honored and Proud to, to be in the pantheon. It's so good, so well written, so well curated, and we're so proud to be in the pantheon now. And listen, if you prefer to watch my chat with Sean, we'll also put it on our YouTube channel, At Risk show now. I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope that by the time this episode shows up in your podcast feed that my exit from the building that I'm currently recording this in right now in Hell's Kitchen New York goes smoothly, that my visa to Thailand has been approved. That's right. I'm currently one week away from my flight and still waiting for my visa approval. I hope that my flight and my entry into Thailand went smoothly and that I'm in the process of crossing the T's and dotting the I's on a lease for a condo unit to rent in Bangkok. Once you're listening to this, that is a lot of hopes. So say a prayer that if one or a few of those things don't go as. I just hoped that I found some workarounds because, folks, I am really, like, living up to the tagline here. I'm taking the biggest risk of my whole life with this one. And so what should you do? Because, folks, today's the day. Take a risk.

[Sean Mallon]

Okay, so people of New York City.

[Kevin Allison]

Home of the district, go. Do you want to dance? Yeah. You into that?

[Axel Lundstrom]

You're going to dance?

[Kevin Allison]

I want to see you do it.

[Axel Lundstrom]

So we're going to put lights on you.

[Kevin Allison]

Okay? Come on. I can't hear you. Come on, let's see the day.

[Axel Lundstrom]

We've been married for 33 years, and every time we go to a concert, I remind him about my traumatic Durant Duran concert. My friends, however, and I still am in touch with them, but after I did this story with Kevin's workshop, I shared a version of it with them. And they had no idea that I'd been carrying this baggage for 40 some odd years. And they all apologized. I mean, they kind of remember going to rush the stage, but they really just didn't register that they had abandoned me. Yeah.

[Kevin Allison]

Hey, everyone. I am so excited to be here with Sean Mallon, who has this incredible new book out called the podcast 101 podcasts that changed the Way we listen. And wow, are you excited? How long have you been working on it?

[Sean Mallon]

Oh, like physically working on it or thinking about it? Because, like, I've been doing interviews with podcast people. I mean, when did we speak for the Austin Chronicle? I want to say 2015, 16, a decade ago maybe.

[Kevin Allison]

Uh huh.

[Sean Mallon]

I was wanting something like it for a long time, but I would say I only started in earnest. I had a professor poke me in the chest, he got a finger right in my shoulder, was like, where's the book, man? And that's when I started taking it out, about 22.

[Kevin Allison]

I mean when you emailed me about including Risk in the book, I, you know, I get, you get so many emails and at the moment I was responding, I was just like, oh, that's really sweet. And you know, but now I'm looking at the book and I'm like, holy, this is a real honor. I mean it's extremely well written, it's extremely well curated, like the 101 podcasts you chose. And you're absolutely right. Like we've been at it for 16 years now and you know, we don't get included very often anymore in people's, oh, you gotta check out these podcasts because we've been around so long, you know. But yes, it really feels like it is a beautiful time to kind of encapsulate. These are the shows that kind of like paved the way and like proved over time that they've, you know, they've got the juice, you know.

[Sean Mallon]

Yeah, and there's some young podcasts, right? Like, like there are podcasts that are more recent that haven't been around as long as you have or aren't as pioneering, but they've contributed other maybe aesthetic or historic qualities to like media history. Of course. But the book was really like, I was a huge fan of the Thousand one movies you have to see before youe Die series. And I love Roger Ebert's great movies as well. Like these, these canons that just sort of define if you're getting into something or if you know someone who's into it but you don't know about it. Like, my mom is not a podcast listener, but she knows that I love them. Where would somebody like that even begin? And you know, I think about all the conversations I've had about Risk over the years. It was like a no brainer because when people ask for things, of course they want to hear what's the new show. But I go, oh no, you should go back and listen to this episode of Risk. I heard a song on that one that I'm still listening to on Spotify 15 years later, you know, or like that one story got to me and I've been doing that for, yeah, 10 years, 12 years at least for this, this specific show. So when it came down to, like, choosing for the book. I mean, we had. We had hundreds of potential options for the book. I had over 250 podcasts that I thought, you know, any of these could be worth their salt in a history of this medium. But ultimately, when you have to pare it down, you get down to the brass tacks of, like, did this one really cut muster? And like you said, did it. Did it cross the finish line? And Risk is. Is one of those.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, that's incredible. You know, it is. You know, I look through the book, and there are so many podcasts where I'm like, yeah, it really does feel like some of these people have become friends. You know, I mean, there. When we started, Marc Maron was on the very first live show of Risk, and he hung out after the show. I had been on the phone with him, helping him prepare his story. I mean, not helping him, but, you know, just going over it all. And after the show, he wanted to hang out a little bit in, like, one of the back rooms, a green room or whatever, because he sat down and he said, you've really got something here like this. This idea you've got is really, really solid. And you know what? I'll introduce you to Jesse over at. What was he calling his show at that time?

[Sean Mallon]

He changed sound of Young America.

[Kevin Allison]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Sean Mallon]

Of course.

[Kevin Allison]

And between those guys, between Brendan, his producer Brendan and Jesse and his folks, they all, like, gave us advice on the equipment to use and how to get. How to get the show up and out there and. But there are people on here who I feel like are friends now. Like Conan o', Brien, for example. The way that his podcast gave you this view into his just. Just. Or the way his mind works in. In downtime, almost.

[Sean Mallon]

Yeah. And, like, when did you start making friends with them? Was it from the podcast, or was it that you were friends from the comedy scene, from your work with the State? Like, I would have thought you'd met Conan many years.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, no, I. I've. I've still, to this day, never met him. But I knew some folks on his writing staff I applied to. I sent in a writing packet at one point also. But no, I just mean that, like, that way that so many of these classic shows, you. You. You've known some of these people through their shows for so long. Because another thing is that PODC is this place where you people have always loved the way that you can talk at length and in a little bit more depth and a little bit more. Less censored than you might Other places, which was completely and totally what Risk was all about, you know, was, oh, here is a show where we don't have to do what storytelling shows that are looking to get on NPR would have to do because of standards and practices and everything else.

[Sean Mallon]

Yeah. And, you know, I talk about this because we have the Moth is in the book, and there's a couple other stories. I don't want to reveal them all on the air so people get the book. But, like, I think one thing that was provocative about Risk to me, like, when I first started listening to Risk, I did not attend live storytelling. I was really all about media storytelling. Like, film was where I started, and comedy, too, to a certain extent. I never really attended live shows, but Risk used audio in a way where, yes, you got those live storytelling voices, as you did in the Moth or On this American Life. And I was in the book and was a big help, and so were the Moth people. I mean, they were amazing to deal with. But Risk felt like the media format itself was very different and, like, it made such good use of podcasting. And even though those other storytelling shows are historical landmarks and are also included in the book, it was like, when you think about Risk, you think about it as a hard podcast. And when I say hard, I mean, like, it's for audio. Like, I could not imagine really participating in it in another way. Not that you don't do your live storytelling shows, not that it doesn't have other interpretations in media, but for me, just the, like, the audio element defines you so much, and you are so connected to it. And I think that's why you found such a community with, like, you know, with Marin and. And Brendan and Jesse, because those people. I mean, look at Marin. Marin is going to go out at 16 years with no video. He never did video. I mean, God, what a hero.

[Kevin Allison]

Totally stuck to his guns. Yeah, it's funny, I remember hearing Ira Glass talk about. About audio being like, the theater of the mind, and that when they tried to go to Showtime and make a TV show out of it, he said, you know, it was. It was so limiting to have to have, you know, specific locations and imagery and actors for things where. Where you could allow, like, the kaleidoscopic mind to go anywhere, the psychedelic mind to go anywhere with. With your words. And I remember being so kind of moved by that, because I was always. I grew up on the Monty Python records Free to Be you and Me with all the comedy sketches on it. And my dad used to have, like, Bob and Ray records and other Sorts of comedians. And so, yeah, I've always just been so in love with audio and the way it's kind of so intimate and, like, so, like. I mean, it's literally like, inside your head. I used to make erotic hypnosis recordings, and the instruction was always make sure you're wearing earbuds. So that my voice is inside you.

[Sean Mallon]

Yeah, I mean, that's how I hear your voice. Right. And I have for. Can I ask you a question? Do you think, Kevin, that I've gotten a lot of emails from people being like, I really was not expecting to be. Get this email. I feel outclassed or weirdly, were you surprised that I reached out about this? Like, that. A book that was about the landmarks in podcasting? Like, did it shock you at all? Or were you like, no, we deserve this?

[Kevin Allison]

I. I was both. I w. I was both surprised and felt like, God damn, finally, you know, that sort of recognition, because Risk has always been super fucking indie, you know, like, we've. We've. It's so funny. Mark hit his sort of tipping point with WTF a few. A few months in, and so we watched that happen to him, and we're like, oh, my God. You know, so that. That's our future, you know, because we started right around the same time. But Risk has always been like. We've always been going against the current in some ways, in that you can't. Like, there might be a horrifying story one moment and then a totally beautiful or totally hilarious one the next. And sometimes it can be challenging. Of course, Sometimes it's like, oh, gosh, I didn't know I was gonna be listening to this today. And then, of course, like you said, like, with some of the audio stuff, the interstitials and the songs, and just experiments with audio, that, too, can be like, what the fuck is this? So it has always felt like the kind of punk, you know, the redheaded step cousin of shows like this American Life and the Moth. And I guess it just makes a certain kind of sense that it takes a specific audience, but the specific audience that we've built over the years is so passionate about the show that it really makes me feel like, gosh, we just gotta. And I say this in the book itself. We really have to keep this going. But you're right. Like, all these years later, giant corporations have come in, Huge celebrities have stepped into the podcasting space. You know, like, I remember years ago. I forget who it was exactly that was complaining. Oh, my God. We gave Barack Obama or whoever, or Prince Harry or whatever. $300 million. And he's not even really interested in making his podcasts. You know, like, when you hear like that and you want to blow your brains out. But yeah, we've always felt like we're kind of like the scruffy kid out there just plugging away. But we've also always felt like there's a certain. There are people who do listen to bigger NPR ish kind of shows who might still not know about us. So that's why it's such a thrill to be in this book, too, because I totally get you. Someone asked if they could have my copy, and I said no, I really want to keep reading this book because I feel like I've got some new podcasts to discover from it.

[Sean Mallon]

Yeah, I mean, I have in front of me, like, you know, people keep asking, why is this one not on? Why is that not that one not on? I say, look, I'm an inveterate expert of this. I've been interviewing podcasters for decades. Plus I've got a column with vulture, and there's 5 million English language podcasts. How many you think I've heard as deep as you invest, if you stick with any of these shows, and I've stuck with all of these shows and more, you know, you dip in and out, but if you listen for a long time, you miss everything. There's a million shows. I asked Ira Glass what his favorites were. He goes, he lists off 20. I'd never heard of any of them except one, but. And I'm like, okay, I guess I have to listen to those and know what I'm talking about. But no matter what, for me, it was like, you can't have a book about podcasts without, like, the podcasts that made you fall in love with podcasts, I think. And Risk will always be that for me.

[Kevin Allison]

And.

[Sean Mallon]

And, you know, when I interviewed you for the Austin Chronicle, I remember one thing that I said to you was, it's weird that you're at, like, a comedy festival. I think you were there for Moontower or playing at Esther's or something like that. I said, I never laugh when I'm listening to your show. I just get, like, in the feels now. I know a little bit better. But this show is so complex and. And I think that you could be someone who's listened to it forever. You can have one of your devoted fans. And my true blue belief is that people will never stop being surprised by it, which is why it's a worthy art project when projects when. When Podcasts fall into their rhythms is when shit gets so boring and I'll drop off of a podcast when it does that. I'm like, I've had enough. I've listened to you for 10 years. That's plenty.

[Kevin Allison]

Right, right, right. Yeah. That is one thing that we have embraced and like, it's been, it's been really rough going, keeping our heads above water since the pandemic especially. But we have kept on switching it up with now, like conversation style stories with the ones where the storyteller comes back and listens to a story with me and then talks about their new perspective on it now. And then there's these things we're doing called Risk Reacts, where I listen to a story on another podcast that they've given to us and I'm hearing it for the first time and then I just give my initial reaction. And all of these things are really fun and energizing and weird. And so it's. We do, we do have this way of just continuing to evolve and try new stuff.

[Sean Mallon]

I hope you never stop. I mean, I, I don't know if you're the kind of person who, like, retirement is scary. I'm not that kind of person. I'm like, I'm like, give me 100 million bucks, you'll never see me again. No one will know about me. But I'm not sure what I would do if I, if I didn't have some of these shows. Like, look, do I need to be listening to like S Town all the time? No. Like, I got my fill. It's in the book too, and I love it. But like, yeah, how many times can you listen to a show like that? I mean, it's devastating. Risk. Yeah. I just like its sense of play. Like, I just like being entertained. I mean, is it. It's simple. Like, I. Who needs to complicate it? I just enjoy it. And I would really like to like, not have a point of pleasure in my life. A weekly point of pleasure, sometimes bi weekly point of pleasure taken out of my life. So please just like, unless it's for a health reason. And then of course, you know, take care of yourself. Health always first. But if it's not for a health reason, if it's just mental, you gotta stick with it, man. You have to.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, well, that, that's it. So in, at the end of September, I'm doing something that I've been thinking of doing for seven and a half years now, and I'm finally gonna do it, which is to move to Bangkok and People ask, well, why did that idea first occur to you? And it was in 2018. I went there and I met this American journalist there who is now like, bullshit. He's like one of the most prominent journalists over there. And he said, hey, look, you have an online. Your work is online. So was mine, and you could keep that going while living over here. And so we're gonna try this where the whole staff is still over here, but I'm over there, and I'm really hoping that some very new stuff happens because of it. You know, me being on the other side of the world.

[Sean Mallon]

Well, I'll give you an anecdote. While I was working on the book, I took a trip to Vienna, Austria, and I met with some tour guides there, and I asked them, what's podcasting culture like here? Not, you know, I know some shows that are coming out of Europe, but, like, what. What is people's energy around it? And they said, well, it's just starting to pop that studios are opening in the city, that they're investing in space for this kind of thing. They're only just seeing the value of it now. This is like, December of 23.

[Kevin Allison]

Wow.

[Sean Mallon]

I mean, we are seeing, especially after the election when podcasts made such a huge dent in, like, world democracy, you know, they really influence world culture. It's kind of a perfect time for the book, for better or worse. It's like, you have a moment here where you. We are redefining how media is created, where it's made the idea that I read the other day that in China and India, over a billion people are listening to podcasts. It's the most popular form of media in the world outside of pornography. You're never going to beat pornography, Kevin. But you might be able to get B number two. And it's like Thailand. It just feels flush with opportunity, just like Vienna was two years ago. And now sports podcasts in. In Austria are just exploding. English language and German. Swiss. Austrian podcasts are having a big moment there. So I can't wait to see what comes. But I'm sure it will be creatively refreshing and. And I have no doubt that you'll have, like, the tech savvy to keep the. There will be no problem making the show happen. I listen to this show all the way through Covid it. I didn't really. It didn't bother me in any way that, like, things changed with audio for some people. Like, who needs the studio, right?

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that happened to me, I went to Japan. I can't Remember if it was 2018 or 2019. And I took a picture and put it on Facebook and a girl wrote to me, holy shit, Kevin. Allison, you're here in Tokyo. You gotta come to my storytelling show because it's inspired by Risk. And so I find this like, speakeasy place that's just filled with all these English speaking expats in Japan and they, you know, they bring me up on stage and they're like, woo, it's you. And every day I was like, holy shit. Okay, there's, there's a place over here for, for this kind of stuff to bloom too.

[Sean Mallon]

That's beautiful. Yeah. More than ever, I. I'm putting it out into the world on this recording. I predict that not only will this be a successful venture for you and for Risk, but I think, you know, who knows if you want to come back to New York. I mean, New York is New York. It's hard to leave, but like, but I think it's going to be creatively really invigorating for the show. And I think listeners will probably, I believe strongly that listeners will feel that and will feel that creative drive revived. But look like no matter what happens, you got 16amazing years behind you. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Kevin Allison]

Absolutely. Yeah. We are officially a legacy podcast now. Well, I have to say, listen, the writing is so sharp. Just the write up in the book that you gave to Risk is so beautifully put. Like, I couldn't wish for anything better. And yeah, like I said, I'm not gonna give this copy away because I really wanna finish reading it.

[Sean Mallon]

Well, I so appreciate you participating and it couldn't have happened without your participation. And you know, a decade between the last time we spoke, I still have to say, I'm just as in love with this show as I ever was. So thank you for making it and thank you for talking to me about it. It means the world.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, thank you so much. I hope that the book is a huge success because it deserves to be.

[Sean Mallon]

Thank.

[Kevin Allison]

You. On October 17th, I'm an angel. See the wings. Don't miss the new comedy Good Fortune. Starring Seth Rogen, Aziz Ansari and Keanu reeves. Critics rave. Eat 7 cent. We have a budget. Guardian angel, kinda. You were very unhelpful. Good Fortune directed by Aziz Ansari Ltd. R. It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.

[Risk Listeners]

Experian.