The Best of RISK! #34

Summary

RISK! Podcast – The Best of RISK! #34

Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Kevin Allison
Featured Storytellers: Fixie, Kevin Allison, Michelle Roberts
Theme: Jaw-dropping, uncensored true stories “you never thought you’d dare to share in public”; a showcase of some of the most memorable and intense stories from the past 6 months.

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Episode Overview

This “Best of” episode from the RISK! podcast, hosted by Kevin Allison, weaves together three riveting and dramatically varied stories—each highlighting the raw, unvarnished nature of the show. The episode journeys through:

1. A harrowing tale of survival and terror within the world of sexual exploration (Fixie)
2. A laugh-out-loud recount of an infamous family incident involving pickles, ADHD, and film-school pressures (Kevin Allison)
3. A devastating, deeply moving narrative about surviving family abuse and grappling with Munchausen by proxy (Michelle Roberts)

Each segment showcases RISK!’s signature blend of humor, honesty, and emotional depth, with personal stakes running high and self-discovery at the heart of each story.

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Main Stories and Key Discussion Points

1. “St. Andrew’s Cross” – Fixie

[02:51 - 25:57]

Summary:

Fixie shares a gripping, explicit account of his late-teen explorations into sex work in Pittsburgh—a story that leads him to a life-and-death encounter with a client whose interests become terrifyingly sadistic. What starts as curiosity and the pursuit of new experiences descends into a near-kidnapping, ultimately testing the limits of consent, trust, and survival.

Key Points & Insights:

• Exploration and Risk: Fixie describes himself as “a hunter of new experiences,” with a willingness to explore taboo subcultures.

  “I have always been, let's say, an explorer or a hunter of new experiences... I want to fully immerse myself in experience.”

• Sex Work in Pittsburgh: Fixie’s initiation into sex work is casual yet transactional, with an old friend linking him to the underground scene. He quickly learns the ropes of street-level hustling on First Avenue.
• The Client: An encounter with a seemingly harmless, nerdy client evolves into a deeply unsettling experience. The plan was simple: tickling for money, but the client’s requests escalate, involving unexpected bondage and sensory deprivation.
• Escalation and Terror: Once restrained and blindfolded, Fixie is subjected to psychological torture as the client reveals a table full of weapons and chilling threats:

  “Nobody knows where you are and nobody can hear you scream.” [17:34, Voice in Fixie’s ear]

• Moment of Release: The ordeal climaxes with the client’s sexual gratification, at which point he releases Fixie in a cold, emotionless state.

  “When I looked in his eyes, that was not the same person at all. That was far more terrifying than anything on that table.” [~24:50, Fixie]

• Retrospective: Despite the trauma, Fixie frames the experience as a once-in-a-lifetime “gift”—a confrontation with the edge of mortality and terror that only few ever face:

  “What I went through…was the closest you can get to believing that you are going to die without dying... As someone who's a hunter of new experiences... it is definitely in my top 10.” [~25:45, Fixie]

Memorable Quotes:

• On terror: “When someone whispers in your ear, ‘Nobody knows where you are and nobody can hear you scream,’ and you feel that ice-cold piece of steel shoot down your spine—that will do it too.” [17:34, Fixie]
• On survival: “I was floored…they're never gonna find me... just let me fucking go.” [20:00+]
• On the ‘gift’ of experience: “What that person gave me was a gift, a priceless gift…I would never want to repeat that…” [25:20]

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2. “Pickles” – Kevin Allison

[26:32 - 45:42]

Summary:

Host Kevin Allison recounts a family legend: his infamous attempt to create a film-school project at NYU in 1988, which ends in him flushing a giant jar of pickles down the toilet—much to the confusion and horror of his brother and their plumber. The story also serves as a lens on Kevin’s struggles with undiagnosed ADHD and his comedic self-discovery.

Key Points & Insights:

• Setting: Young Kevin, cash-poor but NYU-bound, moves into his older brother Dave’s Coney Island bachelor pad (“mostly decorated with beer cans”).
• NYU Film School: The assignment is to make a Super 8 short film. Kevin’s idea involves a “giant medication bottle,” which he decides to improvise using a gallon jar of pickles.
• ADHD and Decision-Making: Overwhelmed by prop logistics and the pressure of in-camera edits, Kevin chooses to flush the pickles to hide the evidence from his brother:

  “I know what I'll do. I'll flush these pickles down the toilet. Because pickles are kind of shaped like poop.” [36:50, Kevin]

• Disastrous Results: The toilet clogs, leading to the discovery of the pickles by a boisterous plumber. The incident becomes family lore, baffling his brother and cementing Kevin’s reputation for bizarre judgment under stress.
• Reflection: Kevin reframes the story in light of his eventual ADHD diagnosis, acknowledging how “the weird part of your brain” can take over under overwhelming stress.

  “Sometimes critical consciousness just kind of slumps over in the driver’s seat and the subconscious grabs the wheel…and the subconscious often has ideas that are rather special.” [~42:00, Kevin]

Memorable Quotes:

• On hiding evidence: “I had to fist those fucking pickles down that toilet.” [37:30, Kevin]
• On family confusion: “Who the hell flushes a bunch of pickles down the toilet?” [~41:00, Dave]
• On explanation: “Now I know how I can explain that story to my family. And I have to say, if you ever find yourself in that situation… give a little toast to the weird part of your brain— not with a drink, but with a pickle.” [~43:30, Kevin]

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3. “The Lies that Bind” – Michelle Roberts (with Taj Easton)

[48:22 - 95:08]

Summary:

In a candid, gut-wrenching conversation with producer Taj Easton, Michelle Roberts unfurls the multi-layered trauma inflicted upon her by a mother suffering from Munchausen by proxy—first targeting Michelle’s baby sister (through poison and suffocation) and later her brother (through medical fabrication and ultimately fatal neglect). Michelle’s journey is one of unraveling lies, misplaced guilt, grief, and the harrowing realization that the trust and love children give can be profoundly dangerous when manipulated by an abusive parent.

Key Points & Insights:

• Family Background & Early Years: Michelle was a preacher’s daughter. Her sister is born extremely premature, and quickly becomes the focal point of the family’s life due to her supposed chronic illnesses.
• Mother’s Pattern of Abuse: Through hospitalizations and eventual security footage, it’s discovered their mother is actively poisoning and suffocating the infant sister (including “putting urine and feces from her diaper into her IV lines” [~52:00, Michelle]).
• Aftermath and Manipulation: The mother spends only months in detention; Michelle is placed with her grandparents but is emotionally coerced into prioritizing family “reunification,” becoming the child tasked with bringing everyone back together.
• Repeated Trauma: The cycle repeats years later with Michelle’s brother. The mother fabricates and exaggerates his illnesses, orchestrating donations, attention, and sympathy, while Michelle becomes increasingly confused and suspicious—especially watching her brother’s “miraculous recoveries” and questionable physical limitations.
• Narrative Control: Michelle’s mother exerts intense psychological pressure, turning Michelle both into a defender of her and an unwitting accomplice, until evidence and patterns become undeniable.
• Loss and Grief: Michelle details her final interactions with her dying brother, the confusion of mourning a loss deeply entwined with lies, and the decades-long process of uncovering the truth.
• Coming to Terms: Only as an adult, with research and the advocacy community behind her, does Michelle openly name and reckon with the depth of the betrayal and loss:

  “I've really come to grasp the fact that my brother should have never died…he died at the hands of my mother.” [~94:00, Michelle]

• Call for Honesty: Michelle’s plea to her mother and to others is for unvarnished truth—a refusal to continue to collude with silence:

  “You've got to be honest about things you've done that you've never been honest with anybody about, even yourself.” [~94:00, Michelle]

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• On the horror of realization: “She was caught on video suffocating her via her trach…she was seen on camera…putting it [feces and urine] into her IV lines. What the fuck?” [~52:00, Michelle]
• On distorted family bonds: “My role in the family was to bring us all back together…It was all on my shoulders.” [~56:40]
• On dissociation: “The only answer I have for it now as to why I had to have been disassociating through it…because what she was telling the public, what she was saying out loud…was not what I saw with my brother.” [~70:40]
• Heartbreak of final moments: “‘Michelle, when I, when I die, do you think I’m going to heaven?’…I just looked at him and…I said, ‘Yeah, you’re going to go to heaven and you’re going to be happy. Everything is going to be okay.’ He said, ‘Thank you. You help me not be scared anymore.’” [~84:00, Michelle]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening & Episode Preview – [00:01 - 01:08]
• Story 1 (Fixie: “St. Andrew's Cross”) – [02:51 - 25:57]
• Story 2 (Kevin Allison: “Pickles”) – [26:32 - 45:42]
• Story 3 (Michelle Roberts + Taj Easton: “The Lies That Bind”) – [48:22 - 95:08]
• Notable Quotes & Reflections – interspersed throughout each section (referenced above)
• Memorable Story Conclusions & Resources – [95:08 - End (96:22)]: Michelle’s ongoing advocacy, podcast links, and workshop announcements.

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Episode Highlights & Tone

• Unflinching Honesty: The episode features stories that pull no punches, each with moments of darkness but also stark introspection. RISK! remains a place for truth, no matter how uncomfortable.
• Humor as Balm: Even amid trauma, levity emerges—whether it’s the family lore of “flushing pickles” or the absurdity within the darkest situations.
• Empathy & Advocacy: Michelle Roberts’ story in particular transitions from personal trauma to activism, underscoring the community and healing found in sharing the “unshareable.”
• Memorable Turns of Phrase:
  • “Pickles are kind of shaped like poop.” — Kevin Allison [36:50]
  • “Nobody knows where you are and nobody can hear you scream.” — Fixie’s client [17:34]
  • “You’ve got to be honest about things you’ve done that you’ve never been honest with anybody about, even yourself.” — Michelle Roberts [~94:00]

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Closing Thoughts

RISK!’s 34th “Best of” installment is a powerful sampler: it spans the spectrum from absurd childhood mishaps to the razor-edge of survival, and the farthest reaches of familial love and betrayal. Throughout, the episode exemplifies the show’s core promise—courageous storytelling without a safety net.

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For Listeners

• If the episode themes resonate, further resources include Michelle Roberts’ work on Instagram (@cshell92) and her feature on “Nobody Should Believe Me” (Season 6).
• To share your own story, upcoming RISK! storytelling workshops are available (April 8th start; details shared at [96:22]).
• RISK! welcomes support via Patreon and listener reviews.

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[Note: All timestamps are approximate. Content warnings apply—especially for stories with sexual violence, child abuse, and medical trauma.]

Transcript

[Kevin Allison]

On this episode of Risk, you'll hear

[Fixie]

nobody can hear you scream.

[Kevin Allison]

And you'll hear you've got to be

[Michelle Roberts]

honest about things you've done that you've never been honest with anybody about, even yourself.

[Taj Easton]

And you'll even hear pickles are kind of shaped like poop.

[Kevin Allison]

That's right, even I am on the show where people tell true stories they

[Taj Easton]

never thought they'd dare to. New Maybelline Serum lipstick.

[Michelle Roberts]

Maybe it's not just lipstick. It's lush color with endless possibilities. It's serum infused with a hyaluronic acid

[Fixie]

and oil blend for eight hour, plumping

[Michelle Roberts]

moisture in tone enhancing shades.

[Taj Easton]

It's more than the shade, it's who's wearing it.

[Fixie]

You.

[Taj Easton]

New Maybelline Serum lipstick.

[Michelle Roberts]

Maybe it's Maybelline.

[Taj Easton]

One, two, three, go.

[Kevin Allison]

Hey, folks, this is Kevin, and this episode is the Best of risk number 34. Some of the best stories we've featured in the past six months. But there were too many greats to fit into a single episode, so the rest will be in the Best of risk number 35, coming out in a month or so. These episodes are especially especially great to share with newcomers to the show. So spread the word. Now, this is jimmit behind me now. And if you want your music on Risk, send it our way. Just go to risk-show.com music to find out how. And my next online storytelling workshop starts on April 8th. I'll say more later, but what's important is you can email me at kevinriskdeshow.com for more info. Now, in a little bit, we're gonna hear a story shared by me at a Risk live show in New York last year. But we're gonna start with a story by the artist Fixie, who you can find on Instagram @getyourfix. I don't want to spoil it, but I will say this story is intense. So here he is. Now, this is Fixie with a story we call St. Andrew's Cross.

[Fixie]

I have always been, let's say, an explorer or a hunter of new experiences. I have a certain attraction to the more grotesque. I wouldn't say I get bored easily. I just. I want to fully immerse myself in experience. I'm just trying to make you understand it was just so, you know, wrong. And that's. That really kind of like, turned me on. Like I was doing something very wrong. I mean, like, listen, I'm a fucking Catholic boy. So. This story takes place in the late spring, early summer of 1999. I was, I would say, about maybe 19 years old. I had been, you know, thrown out of the military just for a general unruliness. I was unfit. So they said. I found myself back in Pittsburgh and I had made the reacquaintance of an old friend of mine. And she had gotten into escorting and suggested. Well, not just suggested, linked me up with her escort service and they would send me on some calls. Now, it was very, very, very few and far in between. I mean, like maybe two of them worked out and the last one definitely did not work out. It was not working out. And, well, this old friend of mine, she had made the suggestion, why don't you just go downtown? I said, well, what am I supposed to do downtown? She said, well, you could just hook. And I'm like, what are you talking about? She's go down there and guys will just pick you up. You go down to First Avenue. That is where all of the guys are. You just hang out down there. Guys cruise around and they'll pick you up and you know, bada bing, bada boom. I went for it. I mean, why not? What's the worst? What is the worst that could happen? So I spent a good summer or so down there doing this. There were judges and lawyers and coaches. I mean, we're in the gamut for the most part. All the young dudes, they were all the way up near the Smithfield Bridge. They were up there. Now, if you go further down, there would be less and less and less. The way I looked at it is like, well, I'm not them. Which is just so silly in hindsight. But I'm like, well, I'm just dabbling. So I would go all the way to the other end of this strip on First Avenue. There is like these cement benches down there and I would stand on them under the street lamps. I had a Discman and I would carry CDs with me, one of which I remember was. Was cake fashion nugget. And I would sing really loud or I would dance, you know, I would just have a good old time by myself. So one night this fellow drove by, you know, more than once. And then we eyed each other, you know, more than a couple times. And eventually he slowed down a little bit down the way enough to give the hint. It was understood that I would go over. This is a younger fellow, this fellow, he comes, he picks me up, right? Probably, you know, somewhere in their 20s, kind of like a mullety, longish hair, messy, nerdish looking kind of like an ex. Metal head is the best way I could Describe it. I hop in the car. It was a little red hatchback. I'm a tall person. I do remember feeling just a little bit tight inside the vehicle. There was a crack in the windshield. The music that was playing was very soft rock kind of music. I like a lot of those songs. So, I mean, I was not complaining. There was definitely the Christmas tree air freshener. We're just cruising around discussing what this person wants to do. And they're kind, they're nice. When you get in these cars, it's not like straight down to business, like, hey, how you doing? What's going on tonight? It's all very, you know, friendly and everything until somebody eventually makes the proposition, so to speak. This fellow was like, listen, I don't want to suck you off. You don't have to suck me off. What I'm into, it's really simple. I know it's going to sound weird, but, like. It's not that weird. I mean, it's. It's just. It's just what I like. And listen, I'm going to give you, like, 150 bucks for this. I was like, wow. And I don't have to do anything. I don't even have to, like, jerk you off or anything. I'm like, well, what is it? He's like, well, it's tickling. I'm really into tickling. He's like, are you ticklish? I'm like, well, yeah, actually, as a matter of fact, I am. I mean, even if I was not ticklish, I would have said, of course I am. I mean, who is not ticklish? But I am ticklish, I'll have you know. I'm like, that sounds fucking easy. I'm like, how does this work, you know? Well, I have to take you to my place. He says. And I say, okay, well, how far is your place? He's like, oh, it's about 45 minutes away. I mean, that's pretty far in a car. And I'm just, like, trying to suss this person out. Like, is this okay? It was also getting towards the end of the summer, and all of this was trying to save up money to move to New York City. So, anyway, I agree to it. I say, okay, let's go, cowboy. Take me to your place and tickle me up. So off we go. So we're driving, but I definitely lost my sense of, like, where the fuck are we? Are we in North Hills? Are we in South Hills? Like, where the fuck are we? Eventually, we come to a suburb of sorts, and it's very quiet, very 70s suburban type of houses. Double garage. So he pulls in and we go around to a side door and go inside the garage. It's clear, like, this is his hangout spot. And there's like some posters of bands on the wall and this and that. There's a couch, a tv. He's not exactly taking time to show me around or anything, but he is making me comfortable and offering me something to drink and whatnot and making it clear what's going to happen. And it is agreed upon that I am, you know, going to be restrained in some sort of way. And he goes off. It's a deep kind of barrage, and he wills out this X cross fetish object called a St. Andrew's Cross. Now, it is curious me that my real name is Andrew, but, you know, nobody calls me that. You have the wooden beams almost like a crucifix with the arms slightly raised. There's a slight bit in the middle that raises up for your head because my head is going to be restrained. He wheels it out, and I'm looking at it, and I've never seen anything like it. I'm not exactly frightened, let's say that at this point I'm pretty chill about what's happening. I'm a little nervous, but I'm not entirely freaked out about it. I'm like, okay, I've agreed to this. This is just part of it. He's like, okay, you just have to, like, get on that, and I'm going to, like, tie you to that. And I'm like, that's nuts. I was like, you can't do it. He's like, no, no, I won't do it Ty alone. Don't worry. He's like, I'm just gonna use these feathers, and I'm just gonna, like, lightly, you know, touch your skin until you get goose pimples. That's just really what, like, turns me on. I'm like, okay, it. He's like, but you have to take your clothes off. You can leave your underwear on, but you have to take your clothes off. I'm like, okay, so here we are. I'm in my square. Give ease. I'm getting up in there. I hesitantly put myself against this thing. And, you know, I'm. I'm nervous. And. And the whole time he's. He's reassuring me. And the whole time, you know, I'm backing myself up on this. I'm raising my arm, and as I'm raising my own arm, I'm thinking to myself, like, what. What are you Doing. Don't do that. But at the same time, I did agree to it. I know I want to be paid for it, and I'm okay with it. I mean, I'm not okay with it, but I'm okay with it. He says, I'm not gonna do anything. You can trust me. Okay. Okay, fine. Here we go. Other arm up, legs are tied. And at that point, game on. It's all very light and friendly and tickles and feathers and fingertips and goose pimples and even him, like, you know, just blowing on my neck and my ears and tickling my ears, and my ears are very sensitive, and I'm playing along. We're having fun, you know, this is what I'm here for. And I can only see ahead, mind you. So anytime he walks behind me, I can't see anything. And then he ties the knots tighter, and I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, no, no, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. And I'm like, hey, you said you wouldn't do that. Now you're like, you know, changing it. Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. There's just one more thing I want to do. So he comes up behind me and. And he says, okay, don't be nervous. Don't be nervous. I'm. I'm just gonna put a blindfold on you. I'm just going to. And I'm saying, no, no. The response I'm getting is, don't worry. But, no, don't worry. Blindfold's on. Blindfold is on. There goes my vision. Can't see anything. The same sensory touch continues until things get quiet again. Comes up behind again, whispering, okay, okay, don't be nervous. Don't be nervous. It's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. I'm just going to put. Just open your mouth. Just open your mouth. I know it's weird. Don't freak out. Just go with it. Just. It's. Oh, it's okay. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And I was not fine with it. And he's pushing, and next thing you know, your mouth is open, and there's a rubber ball in your mouth, and you can feel the strap coming around your head. So now I have a ball gach. And my. My mouth, and I have a blindfold on, and I'm tied to this goddamn X and I'm tied tight, and I'm struggling, and I want it to be over. And it's not. And, and, and I'm just like getting nervous. Part of me knows you might be in a little bit of trouble here, but at the same time, I'm restrained. This is not the time. This is not the time to freak out. It's bad. But stay calm. It's not going to help anything making a scene here. The tickling continues briefly, very briefly, until another call. He comes up behind me. He's already found my sensitive spots. And my sensitive spots are my ears and my neck. And he comes up behind me, right behind my ear. And I could feel the skin of his chin right against my neck. And he whispers right in my ear, nobody knows where you are and nobody can hear you scream. And I will, but you are. You weren't in ice cold piece of steel shooting down your spine. That will do it too. And at that point I, I just lost it. I was just fucking trying to shake the goddamn thing over. The thing's not budging. I don't know what the fuck he did. I can't see anything. And then you hear the dragging of a table and the movement of furniture and whatnot. And finally the blindfold comes off. And all I see is a table of just the. The most horrifying objects you could imagine. Chains and blades and whips with like sharp things attached to them. And there's steel and shining metal things. There's a lot of things there. And none of them are soft, none of them are feathers. None of them are, you know, ticklish. What the is this? What the is this? And he is standing there, his misformed pale body in this leathery harness stuff, with a smile on his face. Everything that I've said no to has not been granted. So at that point, no hasn't worked. And no's not gonna work. You know, here on out I'm thinking like everything on the table is everything that's on the table. At this point, my eyes are popping out of my head, screaming, screaming, no, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. And he's running his fingers across them softly, like, do you want this one? Do you want this one? What about this one?

[Taj Easton]

No.

[Fixie]

I'm scared. Part of me in my head is just thinking like, I cannot, I just could not believe. I cannot believe. Believe that I. I got myself into this situation. I just could not believe it. And in my panic, all some things like how. How the do I get, how am I gonna get out? There must be a way, there must be a way to get out of this. And there was no way out of it. And I was, I was floored. I mean, like I. I was like, what this? They're never gonna find me. They're never gonna find me. I'm just gonna disappear from this fucking earth. And what is he gonna do with me? What is he gonna do with me? Nobody knows where I am. And I'm just like, don't do this, please. Please don't fucking do this. No, this was not what we agreed upon. This has gone way too fucking far. And all's I can see is the slightest smile on, on his face and him gently walking his fingers across which object he's going to choose to use upon me. And with that, he walks behind me and puts the blindfold back on my face. And I'm trying to shake, I'm trying to fucking rock in my head. If I rock this goddamn thing far enough like I can knock it down, I can knock down, maybe I could get loose. But nothing's moving. Nothing's moving. And then he came up behind me again, nose brushing against the back of my ear and whispers, I'm never going to let you leave. You're never getting out of here. You belong to me. I was just like. I couldn't even. My, My breath choked down and went down to the back of my stomach. Tried to bounce out my mouth, but couldn't even get out of my mouth because gagged with a rubber ball, ears popping. You don't know what fear is, but you're not there yet. This is not even the height of. Of terror. Cuz then he's. He's picking things up. I can feel him rubbing his things against me. It is the constant hint of everything that is to come that you cannot stop. Things got quiet for a minute and. And I was always focusing in on what I could hear because I'm relying on what senses I have. And I could hear his breathing change and I could sense him near me. And then I. I felt it. I felt him ejaculate on my left thigh. And the noise he made along with that. I think, thank God, thank God. Thank God he fucking just came. I did not think that this could go any further as, you know, a 19 year old who comes, it's like, good night, you know, He started wiping it off and now it's over. Is it? Yeah, he's apologizing. It's over, it's over. He comes back behind me, he's like, it's done, it's done, it's done, it's done. I'm gonna take off the blindfold. Don't scream, you're fine. Please believe me. This is it. I'm sorry. Just don't freak out. You are fine. And I'm just, like, in my head, like, just take it. Just get me. Just let me fucking go. Untie me. Take it out of my mouth. So he does. He lets my first arm go, and immediately I reach for my other arm, and I can't reach it. I cannot reach over to let myself out. And he's already over there undoing it. And I'm like, faster, faster. In my legs. Do it. Do it now. Do it now. But I'm not. At that point, I'm only concerned about not being restrained. And I'm free. My knees are knocking, actually knocking. I could not stop. I physically could not stop my knees from knocking. I'm putting my hands on, trying to calm my legs. They're not stopping. And the whole time, he's trying to calm me down, Assuring me, assuring me, assuring me in apologizing, but assuring me at the same time. I'm like, well, why didn't you just tell me? You know, why didn't you just tell me? Why didn't you just tell me? He's like, it wouldn't have been real. Your reactions wouldn't have been real. When I looked in his eyes, that was not the same person at all. The eyes were. That's the freakiest fucking part. There was no more gentleness. There was no more reassurance in his eyes. It was just blank. It was just the absolute absence of compassion and connection. Gone. Gone. That was far more terrifying than anything on that table. Terrifying. So I get dressed. I'm like, you're an. You're taking me back? Take me back now. Take me back. Okay, I'm gonna take you back. I'm gonna take you back. Where's the money? Gives me the money. I want more. I want more you. This is not what you said. 50 bucks. More like, all right, get back in the car and takes me back down there. And the ride back, my heart is still pounding. My ears are ringing with the amount of adrenaline that's still just, like, rushing all over me. It's very hard to describe that level of true fear that you have completely up. But eventually I do. He does drop me off, and I'm back where I started. And of course, I mean, that was the end of my career on First Avenue. And I didn't tell anybody for a very, very, very long time. When I finally did tell someone the story, and I. I replayed it many times. In my head, try to bring up that emotion again or that sensation, that feeling. Because what that person gave me was. It was a gift, a priceless gift. I know it sounds up. I know a lot of people are not going to be able to wrap their heads around my seeing the experience that that person gave me. Once in a lifetime experience, as a gift. It didn't turn me on. None of that. I don't like being tied up. It's not my fucking thing. You know, people go into things like this wanting, you know, to experience what I experienced. It isn't real. They know at the end of the day, isn't real. What I went through with that person was the closest you can get to believing that you are going to die without dying. So it makes sense to me. I mean, I will never be able to repeat that. I would never want to repeat that. My point is the experience in itself is something that I think few people experience. And as someone who's a hunter of new experiences in smells and tastes and life and whatnot, it is definitely in my top 10.

[Kevin Allison]

Sam.

[Taj Easton]

So this is about how when I was a kid, I had not been diagnosed with adhd. I didn't know that was a thing, right? And my family didn't either. But my family did know that I had this habit of doing or saying things that would cause one or two or whatever members of my family to say, kevin, what the hell could you possibly have been thinking? And I would have a hard time explaining what the hell I could have possibly been thinking when I did this or that. And there's one particular incident that my family sees as the archetypal moment of that, that they remind me of every Christmas or every time I go home to Ohio. And this is the story of how that happened. So in 1988, I was 18 years old, and my parents couldn't afford to get me into the dorms at nyu, so instead they suggested, oh, my gosh, you could save.

[Kevin Allison]

We could save a lot of money

[Taj Easton]

if we sent you to live in this little cruddy tenement apartment, this hole in the wall apartment that your old brother, who's about six years older than you, is living in, near Coney Island. His little drunken bachelor pad, which was mostly decorated with beer cans, and you could live there while you're going to nyu. And so I was a little daunted. You know, my brother Dave is a sweetheart. He went into a program and he was making amends, and he called me and was like, kev, I just wanted to make amends with You. Is there anything I should make amends with you? I was like, I don't think so, Dave. We've always gotten along great. He was like, okay, great, great, great. So, yes, to explain that, yes, it was an apartment that was mostly decorated with beer cans. And I remember doing. Dave used to say, I mean, we couldn't afford much food. And he would say this Guinness that we're drinking all the time. There's probably more nutrients in this than anything we could afford anyway. And there was no Google, so we couldn't really fact check. And we're too drunk to go to the library or anything, so we just went with that. Now, I'll tell you, it was exciting being in New York City, but also daunting. I was his little gay brother who was only 18 years old, and he would. Was in his mid-20s, and he was trying to get it on with the ladies and everything. And I was just like, I don't wanna be in his way, you know? And he gave me this speech when I arrived. He was like, no, I don't buy groceries often, Kev, but when I do, you gotta ask me about anything I put in that fridge, if you can have some of it. And one day he came home with a bag of stuff. And I opened the fridge. I was all excited to see what I might get away. And there was this giant jar, like a gallon jar of jumbo whole pickles. And that was about the only interesting thing in there. And I just thought, ah, okay. I guess Dave has a thing for giant jumbo hole pickles. All right, so it wasn't very exciting. And I closed the door and just went along my way. I was too preoccupied with beginning film school at nyu. Now that was even more daunting because everyone at school was from Paris or London or wherever, like rich kids mostly, right? Who had something to prove to one another about how creative they were. And I was just this kid from Ohio who was there on a bunch of scholarships. And I was just really nervous about proving that I could be funny and creative. So the first class that you could take in 1988 at film school at NYU, we was called Motion Matter and Meaning. And it was. They had a rule, and it was a rule that was clearly just bullshit. Was just clearly NYU being cheap, that freshmen could not yet use 16 or 35 millimeter film. We were not ready for big boy film stock, right? We had to use this film stock that's quite tiny, called Super 8. And if you're familiar with documentaries about people in the 60s and 70s Super 8 was this tiny little film stock that Kodak created in the mid-50s. It was for home movies. It was for little home movies, right? And the thing was, we learned on, like, day one of class that, oh, yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to find yourself a Super 8 camera. And here's the deal. They do still make that film stock, but they don't still make those cameras. Now, our film teacher was always so happy. Nothing was a problem to him. Everything was so delightful because he had just escaped from the Soviet Union. So Mr. Kandinsky was like, guys, it's no problem. Just go to a pawn shop and look in the dumpster. Well, fortunately, my father found a Super 8 camera at a yard sale and FedExed it to me. So I was like, okay, I got that part down. But then in the second day of film class, Kandinsky told us, oh, there's a couple more things you guys need to know first. These are gonna have to be in camera edits. What that means is that not only was the cameras were kind of obsolete, but there were certainly no editing bays made anymore for Super 8. And so the editing of the films would have to be done by starting and stopping the camera. You know, so you'd have to shoot one shot, and you would only have one take of that one shot. And you would have to make sure that where it ended would be continuous with where when you pressed start again, the next shot would begin. So in other words, it was gonna be the kind of editing that you've known to love from the works of Thomas Edison. So that was stressful, right? And then he let us know. There's also the thing that, you know, you only have, like, three days to get your stuff processed by Kodak and then bring it into class. And NYU only own one Super 8 projector. So unfortunately, you're all going to have to see your first projects with all the rest of us in class when you're getting your grade. So, oh, my gosh, the pressure was really on. And all the kids were getting together and figuring out, like, I'll work with you. Oh, my gosh, my parents have money. They'll get us this and that. Meanwhile, I didn't know anyone, and I lived way out in Bumville, Falconey island area. So I was like, oh, God, okay, I'm gonna have to do this all by myself. And here's the thing. An important thing to know about, like, ADHD is it's all about, like, exactly how many frustrating or annoying or boring details can you handle at the same time. And one person being the cast and crew and director of a movie and is a lot of details. So I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna have to wait a day where Dave is at work and I'll just schedule it so that I'm gonna shoot this movie at home. It'll just be me making it. I'll be the star, I'll script it out. I scripted out this story where it was about a guy who looks at his medication bottle and it says, oh my gosh, if you don't take this medication every day at 3pm sharp, your heart will explode. And then at the end of the movie, there's a twist. You find out, oh, what it really meant is that the bottle will explode. So really, really high concept comedy here. But I was still excited about it. And I, like, was running around town getting props and I typed down on the type, brighter, the little, the words that were gonna be on this medication bottle. And the day got more and more intense. Cause it was super hot, we didn't have air conditioning. I would take a shot and then realize, oh my gosh, that prop isn't working. I've gotta run out and get something else, come back and be like, oh my gosh, wait, when did that shot end and how should the next shot begin? And kept going like that until finally I realized, holy shit, I need this shot of this medication bottle. And this particular Super 8 camera my dad bought me is exactly like the Charlie Chaplin cameras in that it has no depth of field, it can only shoot from one distance, it cannot take a close up, so it can't read the medication bottle. This was going to have to be one fucking huge bottle of medication with the instructions written in Sharpie on a piece of paper taped around this bottle. In fact, the bottle would probably be about the size of like a gallon jar of jumbo pickles. So I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. That's what I'm gonna do. I'll get the pickles. I'll get the pickles. This will solve the whole problem. So I'm running against the clock now, just like the guy in the movie. Because I figure if Dave comes home and he has a lady friend and I've got the place a mess and pickles everywhere, oh my gosh, it's disaster. So I'm running, I'm running and I realize, holy shit, wait, how am I gonna get rid of these pickles?

[Kevin Allison]

Right?

[Taj Easton]

Because this bottle has to explode all over the place somehow. But I've also gotta get rid of the evidence because I can't be having these pickles, you know? Like, I wasn't supposed to touch a thing in the fridge. I was like, I could throw them in the trash, but then. Oh, my gosh, no, no. Then it would be like the ghosts of Pickles Pass were, like, smelling up in the trash over there. And I realized that David hadn't taught me how to get rid of the trash outside of our apartment, how to take it down the elevator and where to go otherwise. So I was like, oh, my gosh. There's gotta be some other way that I get rid of these goddamn pickles. And I was racing against the clock. He was gonna be home any minute. And finally. And finally I was having this meltdown moment when I had a eureka moment. Instead, I was like, I know what I'll do. I'll flush these pickles down the toilet. Because pickles are kind of shaped like poop. So I run to the bathroom, and I start shoving these things down there. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Jumbo pickles. And you're probably thinking, did they go down easily? Not at all. No. I had to fist those fucking pickles down that toilet. And of course, it's occurring to me, oh, well, they're not exactly the same consistency as poop, but, you know, I had to finish what I had started. And in fact, I did. I finished what I started. I got the shot. I got everything cleaned up. Dave came home with a lady friend and was none the wiser. And I'll tell you something, I got it to Kodak the next day, and in time for it to be processed for me to take to school. It was funny because so many students had these films where, like, there might be 20 seconds of white or black, you know, like shots that didn't come out. Mine was perfect. Everyone was laughing. Kandinsky loved it. I became a member of the sketch comedy troupe the State, because there were people in that class who were like, this guy's really funny. Let's invite him to do stuff with us. So I got so drunk that night to celebrate my victory, and I came home, and all was not well at home. Dave was very sweaty and half dressed, and coming out of the bathroom, he was like, kev, something really stopped up that toilet. Did you give birth to a haggis in there? Cause we're a Scottish family. But no. I said, oh, no, no. I have no idea what that could possibly be. Well, it was not easy. Dave kept trying everything, like, hangers and plungers and everything, and nothing was working. The landlord did not want to get a plumber. We were using other people's bathrooms for a couple of days. It was kind of horrifying. And the whole time I was like, this is all my fault. But Dave will be none the wiser. Until finally Dave was like, all right, I will pay for a plumber. So the plumber comes over, and we're both home at this time, and the plumber is this really happy, boisterous Italian guy. He's got this giant, like, roto rooter snake thing that can go down to the center of the earth practically. He's like, oh, yeah, this thing could break through anything. And we. And we're like, oh, my gosh. And, you know, the two straight guys had a fun talk about equipment for a while. Then he starts really plunging in there. And he's like, wow. Yeah, there is something really, really tough down there. I feel like I'm breaking through a cow. And he's plunging and plunging until finally he says, oh, my God, look at this. This is interesting. And he bends down, and with his gloved hand, he pulls out of the toilet this little, like, chunk of something that kind of looks like greenish vegetable matter. And he says, look at this. This kind of looks like it's a part of a pickle. And then he says, well, now look at that. And now dozens and dozens of chunks of pickle were floating to the surface of the toilet. He was like, yeah, that's. That's definitely pickles. And my brother said, huh? Because I noticed that a giant jumbo jar of pickles that I bought last week was missing today. And that's when I said, oh, yeah, this could be from when I flushed those pickles. My brother said, you flushed them? I said, yeah, yeah. Now that you mention it, does seem to be that. He's like, aha. Wow. Yeah. And meanwhile, the plumber is, like, amazed. I couldn't explain what I had done. Right. It was just one of those moments. And so my brother's frustration with me that night, just, like, his mind was blown. Who the hell flushes a bunch of pickles down the toilet? And then it just became family lore, you know? But after I was diagnosed several years ago, I began to learn that when people with ADHD have just a fuck ton of details that don't interest them or are kind of annoying or downright boring or whatever, and. And get overwhelmed by it all, sometimes critical consciousness just kind of slumps over in the driver's seat and the subconscious grabs the wheel and, you know, the subconscious often has ideas that are rather special. So now I know how I can explain that story to my family. And I have to say, if you ever find yourself in that situation where you're thinking, oh, shit, I don't know how to explain what I just did. Here, give a little toast in the weird part of your brain to me, not with a drink, but with a pickle.

[Michelle Roberts]

I love pickles. Me too.

[Taj Easton]

They're one of my favorite foods.

[Michelle Roberts]

Olives are more.

[Kevin Allison]

This episode of Risk is sponsored by BetterHelp. We're taking a moment to celebrate women and all that they carry at work in relationship. Relationships in families March includes International Women's Day. And between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, women's emotional well being can easily be overlooked. Take a moment to celebrate a woman in your life who's had a lasting and memorable impact on you. And let's all reflect on the roles we play, the expectation we place on them, the pressures they feel. Therapy can help create balance, set healthy boundaries and support overall well being for everyone. Now at BetterHelp, their therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapist goals and find someone who's good for you. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 6 million people globally with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews, your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] risk. That's better. HP.com risk.

[Taj Easton]

This is Risk.

[Kevin Allison]

This is Simo behind me. Now we just heard from me with a story edited by Hope Brush. And before that we heard from Fixie in a story produced by Taj Easton. Look for Fixie on Instagram etyourfix. Folks, Risk is very expensive to make and for us to keep, keep on keeping on support from our listeners is absolutely crucial. And if you support us by joining our [e-mail] risk There's a new bonus story waiting for you over there from Mike o'.

[Taj Easton]

Gorman. And I yell downstairs, I say, hey Jess, when you come up, can you just grab the dun dun.

[Kevin Allison]

The fuck was that?

[Taj Easton]

She comes running up the stairs, she goes, what the fuck was. It's the fish. It's alive.

[Kevin Allison]

And another way you can support us and drown out the haters is by writing us reviews and giving us five star ratings on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or podchaser. Those good reviews really do bring more listeners our way and this episode is a perfect example of how much the show delivers for new listeners. Now next up, a truly stunning story by Michelle Roberts. This was from one of our Conversation style episodes. So what you're about to hear is Michelle Roberts telling a long story to our producer Todd Easton, and the two of them even chat about her story along the way. This story concerns child abuse. There's a death in the story as well. If you're familiar with the podcast, nobody should believe me. Michelle is also featured on season six of that series which investigates cases of families coping with Munchausen by proxy abuse. I think you'll be knocked out by what a gifted storyteller Michelle is and by how honestly and intimately she shared this one with Taj. So here's Michelle Roberts and Taj Easton now with a story we call the Lies that Bind.

[Michelle Roberts]

I heard you have a story. I heard things have happened to you. Boy, have they. Yeah, I mean, I had from what I can remember, a pretty normal childhood. Those first few years I was just me and both my parents. My dad was a Baptist preacher. When I was about five years old, my parents sat me down to tell me I was going to have a baby sister. And I was so excited to have a sister. You know, I remember wondering what she was going to be like, what we were going to do. I was going to share my Barbies with her and I was kind of a nerdy kid. So I was also going to share like my Star wars stuff with her. She was born around three months early. That's just kind of when everything in my life changed. The first time I ever got to see her in person, she was in the nicu, the neonatal icu, because being born that early, she had so many complications and so many surgeries and her lungs were underdeveloped and there's all this scary stuff going on with her. And I remember walking into the icu, I don't even necessarily remember what she looks like. I remember the tubes that are attached to her and every which way and the beeping of the hospital machines and noises. She was on a feeding tube, she was on a ventilator. There's just all this kind of noise. And I mean it sounds awful, but in my five year old brain she almost looked like an alien because she's just hooked up to all these things. That's a really scary sight to see. And to give some context, I was not supposed to be in the NICU because I was not old enough to be in there. They did not allow it. And a very kind nurse snuck me in. You know, I really wanted to see my sister. I just wanted to be around. Even if I couldn't go back and see her, I would sit there in the waiting room and fall asleep waiting on an opportunity for this really kind nurse to kind of sneak me in so that I could see her for five seconds. And so my whole life was my sister. And I remember them just telling me, you know, we have to take care of her. She's really fragile. Everything in my life revolved around her. So I stayed with my grandparents for a while while she was in the hospital because my mom really, both my parents primarily stayed at the hospital with my sister. Yeah. And so I end up at my grandparents house with my dad's parents. And they were some of the most kind, caring, gentle people. And I remember, you know, I wasn't even going to school at the time. My parents were calling themselves homeschooling me. But in reality, in reality, how do you homeschool a kid when you never see them? Very rarely got any, any schooling at all. So I remember my days revolving around a phone call, waiting on a phone call to hear how my sister was doing. Oh, wow, you know. Yeah. And that was my whole life. And she was just constantly sick. Like she would go in and out of the hospital. She started coming home, but when she would come home, it would only be for like maybe a day, maybe two days at most, like four or five days. And then she would go right back to the, to the nicu. And as a kid I'm just listening to this thinking, oh my gosh, she's just really, really bad sick. And in the background now, as an adult, you know, I come to realize there were a lot of people who thought this is not, this is not lining up. You know, she's supposed to be on the path to recovery. She's leaving here and gonna live a somewhat normal life, or she should be. And then she ends up back in the hospital a few days later and people started asking questions and not being able to make sense of things. Yeah. And so for me, everything is just so confusing because, you know, I'm five, six, seven years old. I see my parents mostly my dad on the weekends, occasionally. You know, when I do see my mom, it's normally in A hospital setting that I'm seeing her. I'm rarely, you know, getting to see my sister at all. So at a certain point, my dad and my grandpa really, really early one morning had to get up and they had to make a trip. I don't understand where they're going. Nobody's really answering my questions as a child. And I started to kind of piece together that it has something to do with my mom and I didn't really know what. Much later I started to figure out that what actually happened was my grandpa went with my dad to go bail my mom out of jail. At a certain point, my parents sit me down and they start to explain things. What they said was my mom had done some really bad things to my sister. And because of those really bad things, I had to go live with my other set of grandparents, my mom's parents. And mom was going to face some consequences, but everything was going to be okay. We were going to be back together after everything was handled. She was taking responsibility for it, but she just did some really bad things. And I just remember being in this small room in my grandparents house and it was always really warm at their house and kind of stuffy in the room. Looking my mom in the face, she said, I need you to repeat it back to me. I need to know that you understand that I've done something bad, but that you forgive me and we're going to be okay. And I remember sitting there in that moment as a kid and just sobbing because in my mind looking at her and telling her that I knew she did something bad. It felt like I was betraying her by saying that. And after that it felt like things really started to spiral. So what had actually happened, the hospital nurses started noticing there was no reason for my sister to immediately be coming back to the hospital after only a few days of being home. The infections that she kept ending up with did not make any sense. Like she would leave the hospital healthy, she would be home for a few days and then she would end up back in the NICU with some sort of infection that made no sense to the hospital staff. They installed cameras in the hospital room they were staying in. They catch my mom poisoning my sister. She was caught on video suffocating her via her trach. She would put her finger over my sister's trachea. And this is really hard to say out loud, but the baby is seen on the video, my sister is seen on this video turning blue and suffocating at the hands of our mother. And the poisoning aspect of it she was seen on camera taking urine and feces out of my sister's diaper and putting it into her ivy lines. What the fuck? And of course I don't know any of this as a child, but that's what they called her doing. And so I'm removed from her custody. I'm removed, you know, in place with her parents, my grandparents, My sister is removed from her custody as well to start with. My sister is placed in foster care for a few months, I believe it was, until they could eventually place her with my grandparents as well so that we could both be with my mom's parents. We lived with my grandparents for probably five or six years. My mom's rights were supposed to be legally terminated of both me and my sister. Her parental rights were supposed to be terminated and for whatever reason they were not. Her rights were never terminated. And so they still had visitation with me. My mother also, she ended up serving six to eight months in a women's detention center and got on probation. I started going over there and seeing my parents on the weekends once she was home. And I remember constantly feeling like my role in the family was to bring us all back together. I was supposed to live with my parents. And a lot of that looking back on it now, it's because that's what my mom was telling me. She was constantly feeding me this, this, you shouldn't be at your grandparents house anymore. We should be together, we should all be living together. That's the way families are supposed to be. And in my mind I knew some things had gone wrong, but she would never go into any detail, right? And eventually, you know, at some point, I was probably closer to 10, she finally said, you know, she had a really bad mental breakdown and you know, she did something that harmed my sister, but that she went to therapy and went to counseling and it was just a one time thing and you know, she'll regret it for the rest of her life, but she's gonna move past it. And what we needed to focus on now was me and my sister both being back home with them. That was the most important thing through those years, living with my grandparents, there were so many just crazy weird things going on, some of which I didn't even know about until, you know, I was an adult. Some things I, I do remember, I remember being around 8ish and I was visiting my parents for the weekend and my mom jerks me up in the middle of the night out of the bed and she wraps a blanket around me and runs me outside and she's like, the house is on fire. The house is on fire. And we go outside and there's a fire truck, there's ems, there's tons of friends. We had a lot of friends from the church, you know, that we went to at the time. It's the middle of the night, really cold. One of the firefighters we actually went to church with said, you need to come sit in the truck. So I went around with the firefighter and sat in his truck. And I remember sitting there looking towards the house and seeing that the house had been on fire. And it was my bedroom window that was on fire and it had melted. There was this huge spot there right up under, you know, my wall to my room and my bedroom window all up under there. The siding had just melted off of it. It was really dark, so I could only see, like a little bit of it. And so in my memory, it's very distorted looking because not only is it like a fire has been there, so everything's black, but it looks kind of like melted. I'm scared because I have no idea what's going on. And I remember my grandparents coming over and saying, you have to come home with us. So I went home with them that night. And in my head, I was waking up the next morning and I was going back to my parents to finish out my weekend. Yeah. And my. My grandfather, one of the two times I've ever seen that man cry, he said, you're not going back over there. And I was. I was, like, furious. I was like, this is ridiculous. I belong with my parents. And here you are trying to keep me away from them. And, you know, I just remember my grandparents looking at me and saying, you are not safe there right now. We don't know what is going on, and you are not safe there. And so I remember going to my mom and kind of asking her, you know, they said, I'm not safe here. What do they mean? And my parents telling me that somebody had set the house on fire, that somebody hated my mom that much because of this one mistake she made, that they went to our house and set our house on fire. And so that just kind of further, you know, it drove this narrative into my head of, like, my mom was a victim. You know, my mom was a victim of her own mental health. And everybody in the world was out to get her, and nobody understood her. And it was my job to protect her and my job to protect my sister. And it was all. It was all on my shoulders, you know, at that age. And years later, it's a pretty common understanding between everybody in my family now that she set that fire herself. So to fast forward just a little bit, all of this going on throughout the years, I'm with my grandparents, at a certain point, my grandmother sits me down. And at this point, it had been years that I've been making it very clear to anybody and everybody I spoke with, I belonged with my parents, period. My grandmother was always very frustrated with me. They were not soft and tender and caring the same way my dad's parents were. You know, they were very. They were frustrated, and rightfully so, but they were very. My grandmother specifically was very frustrated with me because as a child, I could not understand that my mom was not a safe person.

[Fixie]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

In my mind, they were supposed to be safe no matter what. And so in my mind, that's the only thing I could believe is that I just. They had to be safe. They just had to. You know, that led to a lot of conflict with me and my grandmother. And so one day she sat me down and she told me, you know, their attorney and my parents attorney had been talking for a while. And, you know, I kind of knew at this point that my parents, we're going to do everything they could to get me back home. And so my grandmother sat me down and said, we're not going to keep you here. We're not going to force you here any longer. So we're going to sign the paperwork for you to go back and live with your parents. I just remember the relief of just feeling like, finally, you know, finally I'm going to get to go back with my parents, and then my sister will come home soon after, and we're going to be together again and everything's going to be okay. In the meantime, my mom had had another child. They sat me down and told me that my mom was pregnant again. And at first, I remember feeling really, really excited. Very similar to the way I was excited about my sister. Yeah. And as much as I tried to bury this feeling, there was still this part of me that just was almost angry or like, maybe the closest thing to angry I could feel then of just like, why. Why are you having another child when we don't live with you? Why would you go and have another child when I'm not even back with you yet? And I just remember that small feeling, but I also remember knowing in my head I was not supposed to feel that way, and feeling guilty for feeling that way and doing everything I could to just bury that. After my brother is born, I went back with My parents. And so it was my mom and dad and me and my little brother at first. And a lot of that is such a blur. I remember these really weird moments, these very strange conversations. There was one time I was sitting in the back seat with my brother because I was obsessed with him. I wanted to be around him all the time. I was helping take care of him. You know, I would change his diapers. I would help feed him. You know, I was just so obsessed. I wanted to do everything and just be around him. And I was sitting in the back seat of the car, and his car seat was in the middle, and my mom was on the other side. And she looked down at him, and she looked up at me, and she said, he's going to be what puts our family back together. And I remember at that age just thinking, well, that's a strange thing to say.

[Fixie]

That's a strange thing to say.

[Michelle Roberts]

It is a strange thing to say about a newborn, about a baby. She used the first two years of his life to take my grandparents back to court to get custody of my sister. So here I am. I move back in with them. My parents take my grandparents to court. My mom kind of starts to tell me, we're going to need you to go talk to the judge. She makes it very clear that, again, it is my responsibility. I remember at one point her telling me, if you're going to go in there and say something other than you want your sister back home, I need you to tell me. We need to know ahead of time, because if that's how you feel, then you don't need to talk to the judge. And of course, I'm not gonna say that. I don't think any kid would, but I had already. It's already been ingrained in me at this point, and it's so much my responsibility to keep our family together.

[Fixie]

Right?

[Michelle Roberts]

And so I remember going in the judge's chambers, and, you know, he was a. He was a nice man. And I remember being very nervous. It was a very quiet, kind of small room. It was on the second story. I had to take an elevator to get up there. And, you know, him sitting down with me and sitting across the room and saying, you know, I'm just going to ask you some questions, and I just want you to tell me how you feel. I don't even remember what it was I said to him, but I remember this replaying of my mother's words in my head. This is my responsibility, and I could not mess this up for my family. Like, this is My time to shine. Almost like this is my time to make sure. I remember thinking that over and over and over again. I've got to get my sister back. I could not mess this up. So sure enough, the judge agrees to let my sister go back. So then we're all together. You know, I think for the first few months I was so excited. Like we were finally all back together. You know, it was me and my parents and my brother and my sister happy and together. I remember my mom sleeping a lot and not interacting much. And me and my siblings used to play a lot. We were always playing. You know, my brother was always wanting to go outside. So I would be the one to go outside and watch him play. Or, you know, I would be the one heating up his food and making lunch during the summer and doing all these things for him. I just remember being really close to both of them. You know, we, we would just play and we would watch movies together and play outside a lot. Like he loved to dig in the dirt and play with his trucks. And I just remember being very involved in that. And looking back on it, I don't remember my mom being very present in that. I don't remember her playing with us or, you know, hanging outside with us. I just don't remember her being very involved. And then one day my brother gets sick. You know, I'm in, I'm in high school at this point. I remember her telling me the story that the, the school nurse had called her one day and that my brother had run into a pole because he couldn't see it. And so she starts telling everybody that he's blonde, that he can't see. They don't know what's wrong with him. And looking back on it now, it's very strange because I, I don't remember him not being able to see. And there's a couple of different stories she tells, none of which I remember. You know, there's a story that she tells about him walking up to me and calling me mama because he couldn't see the difference between me and her. That's how blonde he was. And I don't remember that at all. Like, that seems very far fetched in my mind. They start taking him back and forth to a hospital. Me and my sister start staying with our aunts and grandparents a lot because they're going back and forth to this hospital with my brother. He ends up with a central line. He ends up on steroids for months and months and months. Like just massive amounts of steroids. And so I watched his body change. And, you know, I watched him like, get really, really swollen from the steroids. He was so swollen and his cheeks were so swollen and there was. It's almost like they were so swollen they were pressurized or something. I mean, it, it looked. They got like really shiny on his cheeks. At one point, one of his cheeks started, like the skin started to split because they had swelled up so big. When he would smile, like, his eyes would squint and. And that's when I, I really, I really believed wholeheartedly that he was so sick because I watched this change in him and I watched that make him very miserable and be tired. I remember him being really tired and kind of like not really complaining but. But he was almost like. You could just tell he felt awful. You know, he would just. He would just sit there and he would just almost like whine sometimes because he just felt that bad. And so I was just like, you know, oh my gosh, like he's, he's really sick. And that's when I really remember my mom taking charge. You know, she. She was the one taking me back and forth to the doctor. She was the one taking care of him. She was doing all these things. Like all of a sudden it wasn't all on me. You know, I wasn't the one fixing his lunch and, you know, taking him to the bathroom and like doing all these things. She was like. She completely took over his care, like 100%. Just. I mean, and it was just like a switch. Like all of a sudden I remember doing all of these things for him. And then all of a sudden I wasn't. Because he was sick. And once again, I'm. I'm in this place of like, I'm a. You know, I'm in high school, I'm. I'm becoming a teenager now and this kind of stuff. But it's almost like I'm. I'm still in this place all over again of like, I have another sibling that's sick. I have another sibling that's fighting for their lives. At a certain point, my parents sit us down and they are like, we're gonna move to Alabama. I felt like that was the end of my world. You know, I'm in like 10th grade at the time. I've got, you know what I considered at the time, a long term boyfriend. You know, I've got really great friends. I'm in marching band. I love my school. I love hanging out with my friends. You know, they had become my whole world. And my parents sitting me down and Telling me we're going to move to Alabama because we need to go closer to my brother's doctors. I was angry, and I was just beside myself and just begging, just begging to stay. Like, please leave me here. You know, I can. I can live with my grandparents. We have aunts and uncles I can live with here. Like, just let me move in with somebody here. And my parents were like, no, we're supposed to be together. And so off to Alabama we went. And from there, it was just. Just that constant back and forth to the hospital. And the patterns in my sister's case re emerged in my brother's. And it was. He'd be in the icu, and then he'd come home and he'd be okay for a little while. And then it was. He was on death's door the next day. And it was just this roller coaster on top of me being extremely angry, just an extremely angry teenager. And I'm mad at the world, and I'm mad that I have to be there, and I don't understand. And at this point, you know, my parents and I, especially my mom and I, we had just started butting heads constantly. We were. We were constantly arguing. I didn't understand why I had to be there. Yeah. And there was a small part of me that I think always wondered if she was exaggerating it. You know, I don't. I don't necessarily. I don't know if I ever believed then that she was making him sick. But I know. I remember wondering, you know, is she. Is she exaggerating this? Because I just don't see it. You know, I didn't. I didn't see these symptoms. And she had this just this absolutely ridiculously detailed blog, and it was called Collins Quest, and she wrote on it every day. And I remember as a teenager, like, I started to kind of read it, but then it. I mean, it just got too much because there were so many details of my brother, you know, of his bathroom habits. Just the most inappropriate things to put on the Internet about your child. There were fundraisers and church donations and vacations. People would just, like, donate to us, you know, because here was this child that was sick and from a disease that she claimed he was going to die from, you know, and. And everybody, of course, everybody in your community, especially in a smaller community, they reach out, they want to help you. They want to support you. So there was. There was just endless amounts of gifts and donations and, like I said, trips. We took so many trips. We were taking vacations multiple times a Year. Sometimes at the same time, she's writing to the public. She's writing on her blog that my brother might not make it, you know, that he can't walk, and he is going through all of these horrible things, and he can't use his legs for very long, and he's wheelchair bound, and, you know, he's so fatigued he can't function. But then we'd go on vacation, and he would run around in a water park. But then online, she's writing about how he can't walk. And then, you know, the only. The only answer I have for it now as to why I had to have been disassociating through it, you know, because I. I knew I had to have known on some level what she was telling the public, what she was saying out loud, right. Was that he's so sick he's gonna die. You know, he can't function. He's. He's wheelchair bound. But then I'm. I'm going on vacation with him. We're going to the beach, and he's playing in the sand, and he's running and jumping in the waves, and I'm not seeing what she's saying is happening. She's never talking about when he's doing well. She's only ever talking about him doing badly or taking turns for the worse. Yeah, 100. It was always how bad he was doing. At most, the most, like, even remotely positive thing would be, oh, well, he has good days and bad days. And the whole time, you know, everybody in my life, like, we had moved to Alabama, so nobody knew her past. You know, nobody knew what she had done to my sister. Nobody knew any of that. Here was this very well presenting, loving, caring mom with a sick kid with a disease that he wasn't gonna make it through. And that was. That was our life, you know, and it was. It was the constant in and out of the hospitals, and, you know, as an adult, I've figured out the infections he ended up in and out of the hospital with so many times, they're the same infections my sister ended up with. So being the angry teenager that I was, I turned 18 and I was out of there. And I had told my parents leading up to my 18th birthday, when I turn 18, I'm gone. I don't. I don't want to live here anymore. It felt like we all hated each other. My needs always came last. It's taken me years to. To even recognize that as something that was not okay. But to this day, I still have this tinge of guilt when I say it out loud. And so at 18, you know, I was just really angry and I was like, I'm done, you know, I'm out of here. And a couple of friends and my boyfriend at the time came to pick me up on my 18th birthday. And my mom said, okay, fine. If you're leaving, fine, but you can't leave until 12 o' clock that afternoon. Like, you have to give us till noon. Really so arbitrary. I don't know why. I think it was just like her last measure of control, maybe, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I said, okay. And so they. They were sitting in my yard at like 11:55, you know, and, you know, I carried the few boxes of things, you know, just like some clothes, some, like NASCAR memorabilia. I was like a NASCAR fan. And so, you know, I carry it out. And I hugged my siblings and I hugged my dad and hugged my mom, and my dad looked at me and said, call your siblings. Call them every day. And I said, yeah, I will. I'll call them. And I told him all I loved him. And I got in the car and I remember being on I75 south, coming back home to Georgia, and he had the sunroof. So I, like, kind of got out. We were stuck in traffic, and I peeked my head out of the sunroof and just feeling this moment of, like, freedom of just. And I didn't even know, I didn't even have all the details to know how truly free I was in that moment. But still I just felt this moment of freedom. And I remember, you know, the slight wind because again, we are stuck in traffic. I was. I was completely safe. But, you know, just. Just feeling the slight, like, breeze and feeling the sunshine and just kind of looking around and just taking it in and just. It almost felt like this weight being lifted off of me in that moment. And I. I moved back to Georgia. I enrolled myself in my senior year of high school. And I did my best to piece together what I thought an adult was supposed to look like, which I did not do a great job at because not long after that, I ended up pregnant. And I was so scared because I clearly had no idea what I was doing. And my mom found out by accident. She kind of had access to some text messages somehow through an old phone I had. And she called me one day and she was like, do you have anything you want to tell me? Which was her way of getting you to tell on yourself. So I remember just being like, no, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about, I have nothing to tell you. And her finally just coming out with it and being like, I know you're pregnant. And so, yeah, I remember her being really angry at first and being really upset, but then, I mean, it felt like she got really excited about it. My brother was so excited.

[Fixie]

Really?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. And when we told him what I was going to name her, he said, well, I'm going to call her Winnie. For like, Winnie the Pooh. Because, like, I guess. I guess my theme with her, like, her bedroom was decorated in Winnie the Pooh stuff. And so he said, I'm gonna call her Winnie, you know, I remember them coming down to visit after I had my daughter. My brother and my dad had. Had come over to my apartment, and my brother walks through the door and he's sitting there and playing video games for. For most of the day. You know, they came over that morning and they were sitting there. He was hanging out. I think he was playing my Wii, I think was the console at the time. And my mom came in that evening. She just kind of like bust through my apartment door, and she's just like, looking around and we're all just kind of sitting there, you know, hanging out, and she kind of starts to freak out, and she's like, where is his wheelchair? And my dad is like, well, you know, he. He walked in, he didn't seem like he needed it today. And she is just like, oh, my God, where's his wheelchair? She's like, you don't understand what you've done. Him walking in here and being without his wheelchair today. You have ruined the next few days for him. You know, he gets tired out so quickly. You have ruined his next few days because of this. I don't even remember anybody saying anything. And looking back on it as an adult, it's one of those clear moments that my dad was so complicit in all of this. He didn't say anything. He didn't say anything. You know, he was just very passive and very dismissive our whole entire lives. And that was just like. Just a very clear example of that, of just. He was fine. He walked in perfectly, no issues whatsoever. And he just there visiting with us all day, you know, and. And she comes in, just. Just. Just losing it. And I remember him walking out of the apartment when they left, perfectly fine. And I. So I, you know, I remember feeling like that was kind of strange in the moment. But I'm also. I had just had a child. I mean, this was just a few days after I Had just given birth. You know, I had only been home from the hospital for like a day at this point, I think. So I don't know what I think, you know, I don't. I don't know which way is up right now. You got your hands full, right? And I'm 19 years old, and I'm not even really an adult, and I've got a newborn and I have no idea what I'm doing. And so I just. I remember feeling very strange about it, but then just kind of like putting it out of my head, I guess, because what was I gonna do, right? You know, I didn't have enough information to even know if it was strange or if I was just overreacting or she's being overprotective or, you know, just all these things. They. They went back home and they asked for. For pictures of my daughter. And I sent them pictures all the time, and I, you know, we kept in touch. And In January of 2012, my daughter was just a few months old. They sent my uncle over to my house, which was rare. So he knocks on the door and I answer it. And we had a bunch of people over because my ex husband and I, we love to play video games. And so we would just have like, video game nights where everybody would come over and we would play World of Warcraft. And that's me announcing how nerdy I am. But you're in good company. So, you know, I answer the door and I walk outside because clearly he is here to tell me something serious. Like he's not here for just a personal visit. So I. I step outside and he said, your dad sent me over. They're calling in the family for your brother. And in my family, that means, like, they're calling the family to say goodbye. What? Like he's not gonna make it. Looking back on this memory, it literally feels like I am watching myself. I fully dissociated from my body. I, like, watched myself fall to the ground and just sob. Just this. Just. It's like it came. I don't even. It clearly came out of me, but it's like I wasn't even the one making the noise. Like just this. This awful sob, almost scream just. Just came out of me. My husband at the time, he came outside to, like, to check on me. And, you know, I think my uncle kind of filled him in, you know, to what was going on. And. And I don't. The next thing I remember after that is going to see my brother, and they had placed him on hospice care. I remember Going to visit. And he was in his hospital bed and you know, we stayed for a few days and he seemed to kind of start to improve a little bit. You know, I, I remember a few instances while we were there where he was kind of, you know, sitting up talking his Nintendo ds. You would have to pry that thing out of that kid's hand because that was just all he wanted to do was play video games. I think a lot of nine year olds can understand that world. But. Oh yeah, you know, at nine years old, all he cared about was, was Mario, Super Mario. And, and so after a few days I'm like, well, you know, he seems like he's doing well enough for me to go home. And so we went back to Georgia, went home. And then that was one of multiple times that I would get a phone call. Like that time they sent the uncle to my house. But then the next time it was like a phone call from my dad. You know, we're calling the family in and he's not going to make it and we don't know how much longer he's going to be here. And there was a lot of. My mom would text me to tell me, you know, he's not doing well and his vitals aren't, aren't great and we're going to stop his feeds. You know, he had a feeding tube at this point. He had had all these same things my sister had when she was caught poisoning my sister. You know, the similarities, they still, you know, they'll always disturb me like how similar these two cases were. And there was just this back and forth of they were going to turn off his feeds and then I guess he would start doing a little bit better and then they would turn him back on. To stop anybody, but especially to stop a child's food source. When you do that to somebody, right, it is a last case, last resort. Nobody wants to make that decision on a loved one ever. And I especially don't understand it when you, you're going. From turning it on and then turning it off and then turning back on again and then turning it back off again. I mean, it's cruel. My brother was nine years old. One day you're feeding him and one day you're not. And it just, I don't, I don't understand that. That makes no sense to me. And I remember there being a time where I, I felt like I couldn't have a real conversation with my mom. I never felt like I could have like real conversations with her. Anybody's opinion that was opposite of hers or anybody that ever wanted to question her. And her decisions was never met. Well, it's not safe to do so. So he was on hospice. And that was, that was the yo yo back and forth, several calls of, he's not going to make it through the night. He's not going to make it through the week. That continued until March. And then In March of 2012, he passed away. I'll never forget the last time I saw him. He's on hospice care. He's got a hospital bed in his room. They had traded out his bright red race car bed with this hospital bed they put in his room. And he's got his feeding tube. He wasn't on oxygen at this particular moment when I was talking to him, but he was very frail, he was very skinny because they had stopped and started these feeds for him. And it was really late one night and he'd asked me to lay down with him. So I was laying in his hospital bed. Everybody else left the room, so it was just me and him. I'm laying there in bed beside him and he's playing his Nintendo ds. He's playing Super Mario Kart because he would play Super Mario anything. He gets so frustrated, like he was this kid that he was such a perfectionist about these games that if he messed up at all, he would start the game completely over because he did not want to finish it. Not perfect. So he got so frustrated with it, he finally put it down and he stops and he looks at me and he said, michelle, when I, when I die, do you think I'm going to heaven? Internally panicking? Because at this time in my life, you know, I was raised very Southern Baptist because my dad was a preacher for a little while. But at this time in my life, I was in the middle of deconstructing and figuring out if there was a God, why is my brother laying here suffering like, what is going on? And, you know, I'm so internally, I like panic. And I just looked at him and I'm like, I'm not about to do anything but comfort this kid. You know, you're not going to look at a nine year old and tell them, no, there is no way in this world. And so I just, I remember touching his hair and he let me, which was such a big moment because he, he hated anybody touching his hair. Hated it. Would not let you touch his hair. He had this bright red, fluffy, beautiful hair with curls. And I remember like running my fingers through his hair and put my fingers in his hair and I Said, baby, I said, you're going to be okay. I said, yeah, you're going to go to heaven and you're going to be happy. Everything is going to be okay. And he hugged me and he said, thank you. He said, you help me not be scared anymore. And he said he was tired. So I remember getting up and holding it together, you know, trying really hard not to cry in front of him and going to the room across the hall and just. Just. I just lost it, you know, and I just cried. And I just. Just wondering, you know, if there is any sort of God out there. Why, you know, why are you letting this kid suffer this way? And there were just. There were so many things that even then I knew didn't make sense. And when he passed, it still didn't make sense. Like, the funeral that they had for him was almost like a circus, you know, it felt like it had very, very little to do with him as a person. And it was so much focus on my mom and my parents and, you know, what they wanted and how they wanted everybody to act and what they wanted people to wear. And so for years, I've, like, I've carried around this grief and this shame. And I spent so much time not grieving him and running away from the grief of losing him, because as I've gotten older, you know, I started to figure out that there was never a positive test for what mom said he had. You know, I started learning things. I started digging into the records that my sister and I found years ago, and I started piecing things together. You know, we found her medical records, and I found the experts that testified in the trial against my mom. What it had to do with my sister had nothing to do with my brother. But I found these people, and I started asking questions and piecing things together and getting as much information. And then I finally found a name for it, which was much housing by proxy. I started laying everything out, and it all started to make really awful sense. And the signs in my sister's case really, really match a lot of what my brother went through. The way she acted, her MO Seemed very similar. The attention she got from it, you know, the. The symptoms. She would parade online and parade to anybody that would listen and, you know, wheel him in with his wheelchair into church. But then he was just up walking around that morning beforehand, but he had to have his wheelchair to go to church. You know, just all these different things that. That don't make sense. And I looked for any answer, and I talked to her. You know, I. Before I decided to go public. I talked to my parents, you know, and I just wanted answers. And I. I'll never forget the last real conversation that I will probably ever have with my parents. And just looking at my mom and still having empathy for her. And to be fair, that was before I really had a lot of the information that I do now. But just looking at her and telling her like, you've got to be honest, you know, you've got to be honest about things you've done that you've never been honest with anybody about, even yourself. And to this day, you know, she still holds to. She made one mistake with my sister one time and that was it. You know, she still holds to. My brother had this disease that he never had a positive test for that the symptoms don't line up for. And a disease that doesn't have a very high mortality rate. And through, you know, the last, like, year or so, I've really come to grasp the fact that my brother should have never died. And I fully believe, and I have a lot of evidence to back up and a lot of people alongside me that fully believe that he died at the hands of my mother. Fuck me. Are you doing okay? Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing okay? Yeah. Sam.

[Kevin Allison]

This is Risk. This is March the Machine behind me now. And we just heard from Michelle Roberts sharing her story with our producer, Taj Easton. Now, Michelle continues to honor her brother's memory and help others know they are not alone in facing Munchausen by pressing proxy abuse. She's presented trainings at major national conferences and you can find her on Instagram @cshell92. And like I said before, you can check out a more in depth version of her story on the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me. That's on season six. Now, if you're new to Risk and you live in Bangkok, or even if you're just visiting Bangkok, reach out to me at kevinrisk-show.com or on Instagram hekevinalison, because I'm doing more storytelling shows and workshops and social events right here in the original City of Angels.

[Taj Easton]

And if. If you're anywhere else in the world,

[Kevin Allison]

my next eight week online storytelling workshop starts on April 8th. It'll be every Wednesday with each Zoom session starting at 8:30pm Eastern Time, 8:30pm New York time. Absolute beginners, seasoned pros, people who want to work on short, fun stories to share with the grandkids, or long, complex stories to share in memoirs. It runs the gamut. Everyone's welcome. A student in the workshop. I'm leading now is actually taking the workshop for the third time and they just wrote this to me. I just wanted to let you know how much this class means to me. You create such an accepting and encouraging environment that truly, truly celebrates everyone's unique stories and how they tell them. I've been wanting to share about my cancer experience for the longest time and this is the first time I'm putting anything together to share it and it feels great. Your supportive feedback is really encouraging and I'm very grateful for you and this class. I I, Kevin, am so grateful for it too, and for all of my workshop participants. It is such a wonderful part of my life, truly. So email me at kevinrisk-show.com to learn

[Taj Easton]

more about how you could jump in

[Kevin Allison]

on one of these workshops. Folks, this episode was Produced by John LaSalle and edited by Jeff Barr. Now next week we're going to feature another story that you are definitely not going to want to miss. And I can easily predict it'll end up on the Best of risk number 36 or 37 one day. It is an instant classic of an episode and it's called into the Moving Box Dark with a story you will never forget by the extraordinary Annie Karn Reich. But that's next week and folks, today is the day.

[Taj Easton]

Take a risk.

[Fixie]

Sorry, I'm gonna keep you here for the rest of your life. God damn it. I don't even it's so up. It is so up. That is up, up. Do you know how up that is? Like, what the is wrong with you? Can you imagine doing that to somebody? That's so up?

[Taj Easton]

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