The Lies That Bind

Summary

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RISK! Podcast: "The Lies That Bind"

Episode Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Todd Houston
Guests: Michelle Roberts, Andrea Dunlop

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Overview

In this emotionally raw and deeply unsettling episode, “The Lies That Bind,” Michelle Roberts tells her jaw-dropping true story of surviving profound childhood abuse and betrayal within her family. Interviewed by Andrea Dunlop, host of "Nobody Should Believe Me" (a podcast deeply exploring Munchausen by proxy), Michelle recounts an upbringing defined by her mother's pathological need for attention, manipulation, and medical abuse—including the poisoning and eventual death of Michelle’s brother. This conversation transcends mere storytelling, unpacking the complex psychological landscape of family, truth, and recovery from institutional gaslighting and invisible wounds.

The episode is a conversation-style story, traversing themes of trauma, survival, and the painful process of understanding abuse from the inside—as well as the healing power of speaking out.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Michelle’s Early Childhood and Her Sister’s Birth

[03:15 - 05:59]

• Michelle describes a “pretty normal childhood” up until her sister was born prematurely.
• The medical fragility of her sister becomes the axis around which her world spins.
• Michelle is excluded from school and spends her days awaiting updates on her sister’s condition, feeling her existence and worth is tied to her sister’s needs.

Quote:
"Everything in my life revolved around her. So I stayed with my grandparents... My parents were calling themselves homeschooling me. But in reality, how do you homeschool a kid when you never see them?"
—Michelle Roberts [05:33]

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2. The Unthinkable Truth About Her Mother’s Abuse

[06:07 - 10:15]

• Hospital staff notice disturbing inconsistencies in her sister’s condition, leading to the installation of cameras.
• Michelle’s mother is caught on video poisoning and suffocating her sister—deliberately causing medical crises.
• As a child, Michelle is only told that her mom "did some really bad things" to her sister; the severity is hidden from her.

Quote:
"They installed cameras in the hospital room they were staying in. They catch my mom poisoning my sister. She was caught on video suffocating her via her trach... She was seen on camera taking urine and feces out of my sister's diaper and putting it into her IV lines."
—Michelle Roberts [09:01]

[10:15 - 14:18]

• Michelle and her sister are removed from their mother's custody.
• Despite legal attempts, her mother’s rights are not fully terminated; visitation resumes.
• Michelle’s mother continually pressures her into feeling responsible for the family’s unity.

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3. Patterns Repeat: A Fire, Legal Fights, and Narrative Control

[14:18 - 19:10]

• A mysterious fire at her childhood home (likely set by her mother) becomes a powerful event to further the victim narrative.
• Michelle remembers being manipulated into feeling like it was her duty to fix the fractured family.
• Her mother has another child (Michelle's brother, Colin) during this time, exacerbating Michelle's emotional turmoil.

Quote:
"She said, he's going to be what puts our family back together. And I remember at that age, just thinking, that's a strange thing to say."
—Michelle Roberts [19:07]

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4. The Munchausen By Proxy Pattern Emerges

[19:10 - 27:09]

• After reuniting, Michelle’s mother turns attention to her younger brother, ultimately subjecting him to a staggering volume of unnecessary and harmful medical interventions.
• Michelle is made a caretaker for her siblings, further eroding her childhood.

Quote:
"I have another sibling that's sick. I have another sibling that's fighting for their lives. At a certain point, my parents sit us down and they are like, we're going to move to Alabama. I felt like that was the end of my world."
—Michelle Roberts [24:35]

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5. Medical Abuse, Gaslighting, and Exploitation

[27:09 - 36:56]

• Michelle’s mother launches a high-profile blog chronicling her brother’s “illness,” attracting support, donations, and sympathy from their new community, none of whom knew her history.
• Michelle describes her mother's strategic use of her brother’s supposed illness for fundraising and social capital, while reality is distorted at home.

Quote:
"She would parade online and parade to anybody that would listen and, you know, wheel him in with his wheelchair into church, but then he was just up walking around that morning beforehand."
—Michelle Roberts [45:04]

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6. The Tragedy of Colin’s Death and Its Aftermath

[38:34 - 49:46]

• Michelle recounts the devastating period leading to Colin’s death—her mother’s controlling behavior, erratic medical decisions (like repeatedly stopping and starting his tube feedings), and the emotional devastation.
• Eventually, Colin dies at nine. Michelle struggles to process her grief, constantly doubting her perceptions due to lifelong gaslighting.

Quote:
"I'll never forget the last time I saw him... he's playing Super Mario Kart... he stops and he looks at me and he said, 'Michelle, when I... when I die, do you think I'm going to heaven?'... He said, 'thank you. You helped me not be scared anymore.'"
—Michelle Roberts [44:41]

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7. The Unraveling: Confronting the Truth

[49:50 - 56:37]

• Michelle’s journey to self-understanding is long and non-linear; "undoing the years of gaslighting."
• She describes the difficulties of holding onto reality when every part of her upbringing was subject to her mother’s manipulations—even on a micro-level about things as simple as "chemo curls" in hair.

Quote:
"Just being able to just like sit there and look at these old pictures and clearly identify that her hair texture is the same exact then years ago as it is now, and realizing I really just... she was so easily able to convince me somehow, even though I grew up with her."
—Michelle Roberts [55:38]

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8. The Complexity of Abuse and Complicity

[63:23 - 68:53]

• Michelle details her father’s passive complicity—he witnessed egregious abuse but did nothing to stop it, a truth confirmed by her aunt.
• Both parents exist in a space where acknowledging the truth is impossible; for her father, admitting reality would be too devastating to bear.

Quote:
"My dad was sitting in the room in the corner in a chair while my mom is on video suffocating my sister... He doesn't do anything."
—Michelle Roberts [66:33]

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9. Community, Stigma, and Public Reckoning

[70:38 - 79:18]

• Michelle describes the cultural difficulty in accepting maternal child abuse: "You might almost call it a myth or something, that like, a mother would not hurt her child."
• Going public via the "Nobody Should Believe Me" podcast and exposing her mother’s abuse to the nonprofit her mother was embedded in led to a wave of support and realization.
• Michelle’s coming forward “broke the spell” not just for herself but for her mother’s other victims and accomplices.

Quote:
"It's almost like seeing the person that I knew as utterly fake. She wasn't real... it truly did, like, you said, Todd, it felt like the spell was broken completely because I saw it for what it was."
—Michelle Roberts [75:03, 78:27]

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10. Healing, Advocacy, and Ongoing Hope

[79:18 - End (~92:14)]

• Michelle reflects on her healing journey, how speaking out and building community is the only pathway she found toward recovery.
• She outlines her motivations: to help others feel less alone, to honor her brother’s truth, and to protect her young nephews who remain at risk.
• There’s acknowledgment of the limitations of “justice” after death, but a steadfast commitment to changing the narrative—and to warning others.

Quotes:
"If it helps one person not feel so alone... then it’s worth it."
—Michelle Roberts [89:32]

"My brother deserves to have his truth told, even if that truth is really, really ugly. Being able to take back the narrative from his abuser."
—Michelle Roberts [89:47, 90:16]

"My nephews... are not safe living with my mother. My hope is that I can put as much information about this out there... that it’ll save them."
—Michelle Roberts [90:25]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the power of gaslighting:
  “That feeling of believing somebody else before I would believe myself. You know, I would believe things my mother told me before I would believe myself, believe my own memory of it.”
  —Michelle Roberts [58:00]

• On the myth of maternal safety:
  “You might almost call it a myth or something, that like, a mother would not hurt her child... That’s one of the worst things you can think about.”
  —Andrea Dunlop & Michelle Roberts [70:48+]

• On breaking the cycle:
  "Truthfully, because I looked for a lot of ways. I looked for just about every other way I think a person could other than talking about it. And I tried a lot, and none of it worked until, you know, that first support group I was in for Munchausen by Proxy... just talking about it, it's incredible."
  —Michelle Roberts [87:18]

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Important Timestamps

• 05:33 — Michelle describes the family’s focus on her medically fragile sister.
• 09:01 — Revelation of her mother’s poisoning and suffocation, caught on camera.
• 19:07 — Michelle relays her mother’s disturbing comments about the new baby “putting the family back together.”
• 24:35 — Michelle describes her role in the family repeating: another sibling gets sick.
• 44:41 — Colin’s final moments and conversation about dying.
• 55:38 — Michelle observes the depth of her mother’s gaslighting: even over her hair.
• 66:33 — The chilling account of her father witnessing but ignoring abuse.
• 75:03, 78:27 — The "spell breaks"—Michelle and others see her mother for who she truly is.
• 89:32, 89:47, 90:16, 90:25 — Michelle’s motivation for sharing: solidarity, truth-telling, and protection.

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Tone

Honest, emotionally raw, at times darkly humorous but always compassionate; the episode is both devastating and empowering, with Michelle’s bravery and clarity guiding listeners through the labyrinth of family betrayal and the redemptive power of truth.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a testimonial to the devastating impacts of Munchausen by proxy, the insidiousness of familial gaslighting, and the profound courage required to break the silence. Michelle’s story not only honors her lost brother but serves as an urgent warning, wake-up call, and beacon of solidarity for those navigating similar horrors—and for families, professionals, and advocates confronting these realities.

Listeners are directed to resources like the Munchausen Support Network for support and further information.

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For further context and journalism, listen to: [Nobody Should Believe Me (Season Six)] and the RISK! episode “Believe Her.”

Transcript

[Michelle Roberts]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[Todd Houston]

Hey, everybody. This is Brisk, the show where people tell true stories that you're not sure whether to believe or not because they're so fantastic and outlandish. I'm Todd Houston, and this is one of our conversation story episodes. This story is so fantastic and tenderly and honestly told that you are going to lose your shit. I hope you don't drive off the road or lose your job, cut your finger off, or drill a hole into your hand. Also, if you're around people that you don't want to see you sobbing like an emotionally healthy person, then turn this off right now. Choose a different podcast. Don't listen unless you're prepared to to be an emotional wreck in whatever setting you may be in right now. This episode contains child abuse, child murder, poisoning, incredibly disturbing human behavior. So if you're not in the mood for that today, I'd skip this, come back to it later. Come back to it, never decide for yourself. The story came to us because I worked on a show called Nobody Should Believe Me, which is incredibly good.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I hope you'll all go listen to it.

[Todd Houston]

I imagine you will. I imagine you won't be able to help yourself after falling in love with Michelle by listening to her for this amount of time and hearing the unbelievable story she's about to tell. She's awesome. I'm not gonna need to convince you of that because you're gonna hear her right now. Okay, enough. Enough hosting, for God sakes. Here is Michelle Roberts with the story we call the Lies that Bind.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, I mean, I had, from what I can remember, a pretty normal childhood. Those first few years, I was just me and both my parents. My dad was a Baptist preacher. When I was about five years old, my parents sat me down to tell me I was gonna have a baby sister. And I was so excited to have a sister. You know, I remember wondering what she was gonna be like, what we were gonna do. I was gonna share my Barbies with her, and I was kind of a nerdy kid, so I was also gonna share, like, my Star wars stuff with her. She was born around three months early. That's just kind of when everything in my life changed. The first time I ever got to see her in person, she was in the nicu, the neonatal icu, because being born that early, she had so many complications and so many surgeries and her lungs were underdeveloped and there's all this scary stuff going on with her. And I remember walking into the icu, I don't even necessarily remember what she looks like. I remember the tubes that are attached to her and every which way and the beeping of the hospital machines and noises. She was on a feeding tube, she was on a ventilator. There's just all this kind of noise and I mean it sounds awful, but in my, you know, five year old brain, she almost looked like an alien because she's just hooked up to all these things. That's a really scary sight to see. And to give some context, I was not supposed to be in the NICU because I was not old enough to be in there. They did not allow it. And a very kind nurse snuck me in. You know, I really wanted to see my sister. I just wanted to be around even if I couldn't go back and see her. I would sit there in the waiting room and fall asleep waiting on an opportunity for this really kind nurse to kind of sneak me in so that I could see her for five seconds.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And so my whole life was my sister. And I remember them just telling me, you know, we have to take care of her. She's really fragile. Everything in my life revolved around her. So I stayed with my grandparents for a while while she was in the hospital because my mom really, both my parents primarily stayed at the hospital with my sister.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And so I end up at my grandparents house, my dad's parents. And they were some of the most kind, caring, gentle people. And I remember, you know, I wasn't even going to school at the time. My parents were calling themselves homeschooling me. But in reality, in reality, how do you homeschool a kid when you never see them? Very rarely got any, any schooling at all.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

So I remember my days revolving around a phone call, waiting on a phone call to hear how my sister was doing.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Roberts]

You know, and that was my whole life. And she was just constantly sick. Like she would go in and out of the hospital, she started coming home, but when she would come home, it would only be for like maybe a day, maybe two days at most, like four or five days. And then she would go right back to the, to the nicu. And as a kid I'M just listening to this thinking, oh my gosh, she's just really, really bad sick, you know. And in the background now as an adult, you know, I come to realize there were a lot of people who thought this is not, this is not lining up. You know, she's supposed to be on the path to recovery, she's leaving here and gonna live a somewhat normal life, or she should be. And then she ends up back in the hospital a few days later and people started asking questions and not being able to make sense of things.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And so for me everything is just so confusing because, you know, I'm five, six, seven years old. I see my parents mostly my dad on the weekends, occasionally. You know, when I do see my mom, is normally in a hospital setting that I'm seeing her. I'm rarely, you know, getting to see my sister at all. So at a certain point my dad and my grandpa really, really early one morning had to get up and they had to make a trip. I don't understand where they're going. Nobody's really answering my questions as a child. And I started to kind of piece together that it has something to do with my mom and I didn't really know what. Much later I started to figure out that what actually happened was my grandpa went with my dad to go bail my mom out of jail. At a certain point my parents sit me down and they start to explain things. What they said was my mom had done some really bad things to my sister and because of those really bad things, I had to go live with my other set of grandparents, my mom's parents. And mom was going to face some consequences, but everything was going to be okay. We were going to be back together after everything was handled. She was taking responsibility for it, but she just did some really bad things. And I just remember being in this small room in my grandparents house and it was always really warm at their house and kind of stuffy in the room. Looking my mom in the face, she said, I need you to repeat it back to me. I need to know that you understand that I've done something bad, but that you forgive me and we're going to be okay. And I remember sitting there in that moment as a kid and just sobbing because in my mind looking at her and telling her that I knew she did something bad. It felt like I was betraying her by saying that, oh wow. And after that it felt like things really started to spiral. So what had actually happened? The hospital nurses started noticing there was no reason for my sister to immediately be coming back to the hospital after only a few days of being home. The infections that she kept ending up with did not make any sense. Like she would leave the hospital healthy, she would be home for a few days and then she would end up back in the NICU with some sort of infection that made no sense to the hospital staff. They installed cameras in the hospital room they were staying in. They catch my mom poisoning my sister. She was caught on video suffocating her via her trach. She would put her finger over my sister's trach. And this is really hard to say out loud, but the baby is seen on the video. My sister is seen on this video turning blue and suffocating at the hands of our mother. And the poisoning aspect of it. She was seen on camera taking urine and feces out of my sister's diaper and putting it into her ivy lines.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What the fuck?

[Michelle Roberts]

And of course I don't know any of this as a child, but that's what they called her doing. And so I'm removed from, from her custody. I'm removed, you know, in place with her parents, my grandparents. My sister is removed from her custody as well to start with. My sister is placed in foster care for a few months, I believe it was, until they could eventually place her with my grandparents as well so that we could both be with my mom's parents. We live with my grandparents for probably five or six years. My mom's rights were supposed to be legally terminated of both me and my sister. Her parental rights were supposed to be terminated and for whatever reason they were not. Her rights were never terminated. And so they still had visitation with me. My mother also, she ended up serving six to eight months in a women's detention center and got on probation. I started going over there and seeing my parents on the weekends once she was home. And I remember constantly feeling like my role in the family was to bring us all back together. I was supposed to live with my parents. And a lot of that looking back on it now, it's because that's what my mom was telling me. She was constantly feeding me this, you shouldn't be at your grandparents house anymore. We should be together. We should all be living together. That's the way families are supposed to be. And in my mind I knew some things had gone wrong, but she would never go into any detail, right? And eventually, you know, at some point, I was probably closer to 10, she finally said, you know, she had a really bad mental breakdown and you know, she did something that harmed my sister. But that she went to therapy and went to counseling and it was just a one time thing and you know, she'll regret it for the rest of her life, but she's going to move past it. And what we needed to focus on now was me and my sister both being back home with them. That was the most important thing through those years. Living with my grandparents, there were so many just crazy, weird things going on, some of which I didn't even know about until, you know, I was an adult. Some things I, I do remember, I remember being around 8ish, and I was visiting my parents for the weekend and my mom jerks me up in the middle of the night out of the bed and she wraps a blanket around me and runs me outside and she's like, the house is on fire, the house is on fire. And we go outside and there's a fire truck, there's ems, there's tons of friends. We had a lot of friends from the church, you know, that we went to at the time. And it's the middle of the night, really cold. One of the firefighters we actually went to church with said, you need to come sit in the truck. So I went around with the firefighter and sat in his truck. And I remember sitting there looking towards the house and seeing that the house had been on fire. And it was my bedroom window that was on fire and it had melted. Like there is this. There was this huge spot there right up under, you know, my wall to my room and my bedroom window all up under there. The siding had just melted off of it. It was really dark, so I could only see like a little bit of it. And so in my memory it's very distorted looking because not only is it like a fire has been there, so everything's black, but it looks kind of like melted. I'm sorry. Scared, because I have no idea what's going on. And I remember my grandparents coming over and saying, you have to come home with us. So I went home with them that night and in my head I was waking up the next morning and I was going back to my parents to finish out my weekend.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And my, my grandfather, one of the two times I've ever seen that man cry, he said, you're not going back over there. And I was, I was like furious. I was like, this is ridiculous. I belong with my parents. And here you are trying to keep me away from them. And you know, I just remember my grandparents looking at me and saying, you are not safe there right now. We don't know what is going on and you are not safe there. And so I remember going to my mom and kind of asking her, you know, they said, I'm not safe here. What do they mean? And my parents telling me that somebody had set the house on fire, that somebody hated my mom that much because of this one mistake she made, that they went to our house and set our house on fire. And so that just kind of further, you know, it drove this narrative into my head of like, my mom was a victim. You know, my mom was a victim of her own mental health, and everybody in the world was out to get her, and nobody understood her. And it was my job to protect her and my job to protect my sister. And it was all. It was all on my shoulders at that age. And years later, it's a pretty common understanding between everybody in my family now that she set that fire herself. Fuck. So to fast forward just a little bit, all of this going on throughout the years, I'm with my grandparents, at a certain point, my grandmother sits me down. And at this point, it had been years that I've been making it very clear to anybody and everybody I spoke with, I belonged with my parents, period. My grandmother was always very frustrated with me. They were not soft and tender and caring the same way my dad's parents were. You know, they were very. They were frustrated, and rightfully so, but they were very. My grandmother specifically was very frustrated with me because as a child, I could not understand that my mom was not a safe person.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

In my mind, they were supposed to be safe no matter what. And so in my mind, that's the only thing I could believe is that I just. They had to be safe. They just had to. You know, that led to a lot of conflict with me and my grandmother. And so one day she sat me down and she told me, you know, their attorney and my parents attorney had been talking for a while. And, you know, I kind of knew at this point that my parents were going to do everything they could to get me back home. And so my grandmother sat me down and said, we're not going to keep you here. We're not going to force you here any longer. So we're going to sign the paperwork for you to go back and live with your parents. I just remember the relief of just feeling like, finally, you know, finally I'm going to get to go back with my parents, and then my sister will come home soon after, and we're going to be together again and everything's going to be okay. In the meantime, my mom had had another child. They sat me down and told me that my mom was pregnant again. And at first, I remember feeling really, really excited. Very similar to the way I was excited about my sister.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And as much as I tried to bury this feeling, there was still this part of me that just was almost angry or like, maybe the closest thing to angry I could feel then of just like, why. Why are you having another child when we don't live with you? Why would you go and have another child when I'm not even back with you yet? And I just remember that small feeling. But I also remember knowing in my head I was not supposed to. Supposed to feel that way, and feeling guilty for feeling that way and. And doing everything I could to just bury that. After my brother is born, I went back with my parents. And so it was my mom and dad and me and my little brother at first. And a lot of that is such a blur. I remember these really weird moments, these very strange conversations. There was one time I was sitting in the back seat with my brother because I was obsessed with him. I wanted to be around him all the time. I was helping take care of him. You know, I would change his diapers. I would help feed him. You know, I was just so obsessed. I wanted to do everything and just be around him. And I was sitting in the back seat of the car, and his car seat was in the middle, and my mom was on the other side. And she looked down at him, and she looked up at me, and she said, he's going to be what puts our family back together. And I remember at that age, just thinking, that's a strange thing to say.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That's a strange thing to say.

[Michelle Roberts]

It is a strange thing to say about a newborn, about a baby. She used the first two years of his life to take my grandparents back to court to get custody of my sister. So here I am. I move back in with them. My parents take my grandparents to court. My mom kind of starts to tell me, we're going to need you to go talk to the judge. She makes it very clear that, again, it is my responsibility. I remember at one point her telling me, if you're going to go in there and say something other than you want your sister back home, I need you to tell me. We need to know ahead of time, because if that's how you feel, then you don't need to talk to the judge. And of course I'm not gonna say that. I mean, I think. I don't think any kid would, but I had already. It's already been ingrained in me at this point. It is so much my responsibility to keep our family together. Right. And so I remember going in the judges chambers, and, you know, he was a. He was a nice man. And I remember being very nervous. It was a very quiet, kind of small room. It was on the second story. I had to take an elevator to get up there. And, you know, him sitting down with me and sitting across the room and saying, you know, I'm just going to ask you some questions, and I just want you to tell me how you feel. I don't even remember what it was I said to him, but I remember this. This replaying of my mother's words in my head. This is my responsibility, and I could not mess this up for my family. This is my time to shine. Almost like this is my time to make sure. I remember thinking that over and over and over again, I've got to get my sister back. I could not mess this up. So sure enough, the judge agrees to let my sister go back. So then we're all together. You know, I think for the first few months, I was so excited. Like, we were finally all back together. You know, it was me and my parents and my brother and my sister happy and together. I remember my mom sleeping a lot and not interacting much. And me and my siblings used to play a lot. We were always playing. You know, my brother was always wanting to go outside, so I would be the one to go outside and watch him play. Play. Or, you know, I would be the one heating up his food and making him lunch during the summer and. And doing all these things for him. I just remember being really close to both of them. You know, we. We would just play, and we would watch movies together and play outside a lot. Like, he loved to dig in the dirt and play with his trucks. And I just remember being very involved in that. And looking back on it, I don't remember my mom being very present in that. I don't remember her playing with us or being involved with us or, you know, hanging outside with us. I just don't remember her being very involved. And then one day, my brother gets sick. You know, I'm in. I'm in high school at this point. I remember her telling me this story that the. The school nurse had called her one day and that my brother had run into a pole because he couldn't see it. And so she starts telling everybody that he's blonde, that he can't see. They don't know what's wrong with him. And Looking back on it now, it's very strange because I. I don't remember him not being able to see. And there's a couple of different stories, like, a couple of different, like, iterations of the story she tells, none of which I remember. You know, there's a story that she tells about him walking up to me and calling me mama because he couldn't see the difference between me and her. That's how blond he was. And I don't remember that at all. Like, that seems very far fetched in my mind. They start taking him back and forth to a hospital. Me and my sister start staying with our aunts and grandparents a lot because they're going back and forth to this hospital with my brother. He ends up with a central line. He ends up on steroids for months and months and months, like just massive amounts of steroids. And so I watched his body change and you know, I watched him like get really, really swollen from the steroids. He was so swollen and his cheeks were so swollen and there was. It's almost like they were so swollen they were pressurized or something. I mean, it, it looked, they got like really shiny on his cheeks. At one point, one of his cheeks started, like the skin started to split because they had swelled up so big. When he would smile, like, his eyes would squint and. And that's when I, I really, I really believed wholeheartedly that he was so sick because I watched this change in him and I watched that make him very miserable and be tired. I remember him being really tired and kind of like not really complaining but. But he was almost like. You could just tell he felt awful. You know, he would just, he would just sit there and he would just almost like whine sometimes because he just felt that bad. And so I was just like, you know, oh my gosh, like he's, he's really sick.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Fuck.

[Michelle Roberts]

And that's when, when I really remember my mom taking charge. You know, she. She was the one taking me back and forth to the doctor. She was the one taking care of him. She was doing all these things. Like all of a sudden it wasn't all on me. You know, I wasn't the one fixing his lunch and you know, taking him to the bathroom and like doing all these things. She was like. She completely took over his care, like 100%. Just, I mean, and it was just like a switch. Like all of a sudden I remember doing all of these things for him and then all of a sudden I wasn't. Because he was sick. And once Again, I'm, I'm in this place of like, I'm a, you know, I'm in high school, I'm, I'm becoming a teenager now and this kind of stuff. But it's almost like I'm, I'm still in this place all over again of like, I have another sibling that's sick. I have another sibling that's fighting for their lives. At a certain point, my parents sit us down and they are like, we're going to move to Alabama. I felt like that was the end of my world. I'm in 10th grade at the time. I've got what I considered at the time a long term boyfriend. I've got really great friends. I'm in marching band. I love my school. I love hanging out with my friends. They had become my whole world. My parents sitting me down and telling me we're going to move to Alabama because we need to go closer to my brother's doctors. I was angry and I was just beside myself and just begging, just begging to stay. Like, please leave me here. You know, I can, I can live with my grandparents. We have aunts and uncles I can live with here, like, just let me move in with somebody here. And my parents were like, no, we're supposed to be together. And so off to Alabama we went. And from there it was just, just that constant back and forth to the hospital and the patterns in my sister's case reemerged in my brother's and it was. He'd be in the ICU and then he'd come home and he'd be okay for a little while. And then it was. He was on death's door the next day. And it was just this roller coaster on top of me being extremely angry, just an extremely angry teenager. And I'm mad at the world and I'm mad that I have to be there. And I don't understand. And at this point, you know, my parents and I, especially my mom and I, we had just started butting heads constantly. We were, we were constantly arguing. I didn't understand why I had to be there.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And there was a small part of me that I think always wondered if she was exaggerating it. You know, I don't, I don't necessarily. I don't know if I ever believed then that she was making him sick. But I know, I remember wondering, you know, is she, is she exaggerating this? Because I just don't see it. You know, I didn't, I didn't see these symptoms. And she had this Just absolutely ridiculously detailed blog. And it was called Collins Quest, and she wrote on it every day. And I remember as a teenager, like, I started to kind of read it, but then it. I mean, it just got too much because there were so many details of my brother, you know, of his bathroom habits. Just the most inappropriate things to put on the Internet about your child. There were fundraisers and church donations and vacations. People would just, like, donate to us, you know, because here was this child that was sick and from a disease that she claimed he was going to die from, you know, and. And everybody, of course everybody in your community, especially in a smaller community, they reach out, they want to help you, they want to support you. So there was. There was just endless amounts of gifts and donations and, like I said, trips. We took so many trips. We were taking vacations multiple times a year. Sometimes at the same time, she's writing to the public, she's writing on her blog that my brother might not make it, you know, that he can't walk and he is going through all of these horrible things, and he can't use his legs for very long, and he's wheelchair bound, and, you know, he's so fatigued he can't function. But then we'd go on vacation and he would run around in a water park. But then online, she's writing about how he can't walk. And then, you know, the only. The only answer I have for it now as to why I had to have been disassociating through it, you know, because I. I knew I had to have. Not on some level, what she was telling the public, what she was saying out loud, right, Was that he's so sick he's gonna die. You know, he can't function, he's wheelchair bound. But then I'm going on vacation with him, we're going to the beach, and he's playing in the sand and he's running and jumping in the waves, and I'm not seeing what she's saying is happening.

[Andrea Dunlop]

She's never talking about when he's doing well. She's only ever talking about him doing badly or taking turns for the worse.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, 100%. It was always how bad he was doing. At most, the most, like, even remotely positive thing would be, oh, well, he has good days and bad days. And the whole time, you know, everybody in my life, like, we had moved to Alabama, so nobody knew her past. You know, nobody knew what she had done to my sister. Nobody knew any of that. Here was this very, well, presenting, loving, caring, mom with a sick kid with a disease that he wasn't going to make it through. And that was, that was our life, you know, and it was, it was the constant in and out of the hospitals. And, you know, as an adult, I've figured out the infections he ended up in and out of the hospital with. So many times they're the same infections my sister ended up with. So being the angry teenager that I was, I turned 18 and I was out of there. And I told my parents leading up to my 18th birthday, when I turn 18, I'm. I'm gone. I don't. I don't want to live here anymore. It felt like we all hated each other. My needs always came last. And to this day, I mean, it's taken me years to. To even recognize that as something that was not okay. But to this day, I still have this tinge of guilt when I say it out loud. And so at 18, you know, I was just really angry and I was like, I'm done, you know, I'm out of here. And a couple of friends and my boyfriend at the time came to pick me up on my 18th birthday and my mom said, okay, fine, if you're leaving, fine, but you can't leave until 12 o' clock that afternoon. Like, you have to give us till noon. Just really so arbitrary. I don't know why. I think it was just like her last measure of control maybe, you know.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

So I said, okay. And so they, they were sitting in my yard at like 11:55, you know, and, you know, I carried the few boxes of things, you know, just like some clothes, some like NASCAR memorabilia, like a NASCAR fan. And so, you know, I carry it out. And I hugged my siblings and I hugged my dad and hugged my mom. And my dad looked at me and said, call your siblings. Call them every day. And I said, yeah, I will. I'll call them. And I told him all I loved him. And I got in the car and I remember being on I75 south, coming back home to Georgia, and he had the sunroof. So I, like, kind of got out. We were stuck in traffic and I peeked my head out of the sunroof and just feeling this moment of, like, freedom of just. And I didn't even know, I didn't even have all the details to know how truly free I was in that moment. But still I just felt this moment of freedom. And I remember, you know, the slight wind because again, we are stuck in traffic. I was completely safe. But, you know, just feeling the slight Breeze and feeling the sunshine and just kind of looking around and just taking it in and just. It almost felt like this weight being lifted off of me in that moment. And I moved back to Georgia. I enrolled myself in my senior year of high school. And I did my best to piece together what I thought an adult was supposed to look like, which I did not do a great job at, because not long after that, I ended up pregnant. And I was so scared because I clearly had no idea what I was doing. And my mom found out by accident. She kind of had access to some text messages somehow through an old phone I had. And she called me one day, and she was like, do you have anything you want to tell me? Which was her way of getting you to tell on yourself. So I remember just being like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. I have nothing to tell you. And her finally just coming out with it and being like, I know you're pregnant. And so, damn. Yeah. I remember her being really angry at first and being really upset, but then, I mean, it felt like she got really excited about it. My brother was so excited.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Really?

[Todd Houston]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And when we told him what I was gonna name her, he said, well, I'm gonna call her Winnie. From, like, Winnie the Pooh. Because, like, I guess. I guess my theme with her, like, her bedroom was decorated in Winnie the Pooh stuff. And so he said, I'm gonna call her Winnie. You know, I remember them coming down to visit after I had my daughter. My mom was there the day she was born, and my brother and my dad had come over to my apartment to visit, you know, me and my daughter. And my brother walks through the door, and he's sitting there and playing video games for most of the day. You know, they came over that morning, and they were sitting there. He was hanging out. I think he was playing my Wii. I think was the console at the time. And my mom came in that evening. She just kind of, like, bust through my apartment door, and she's just, like, looking around, and we're all just kind of sitting there, you know, hanging out, and she kind of starts to freak out, and she's like, where is his wheelchair? And my dad is like, well, you know, he. He walked in. He didn't seem like he needed it today. And she is just like, oh, my God, where's his wheelchair? She's like, you don't understand what you've done. Him walking in here and being without his wheelchair today, you have ruined the next few days for him. Whoa. You Know, he gets tired out so quickly. You have ruined his next few days because of this. Well, I don't even remember anybody saying anything. And looking back on it as an adult, it's one of those clear moments that my dad was so complicit in all of this.

[Andrea Dunlop]

He didn't say anything.

[Michelle Roberts]

He didn't say anything. You know, he was just very passive and very dismissive our whole entire lives. And that was just like, just a very clear example of that, of just. He was fine. He walked in perfectly, no issues whatsoever. And he just there visiting with us all day, you know, and. And she comes in, just. Just losing it. And I remember him walking out of the apartment when they left, perfectly fine. And I. So I. You know, I remember feeling like that was kind of strange in the moment. But I'm also. I had just had a child. I mean, this was just a few days after I had just given birth. You know, I had only been home from the hospital for like a day at this point, I think. So I don't know what I think, you know, I don't know which way is up right now.

[Todd Houston]

You got your hands full, right?

[Michelle Roberts]

And I'm 19 years old, and I'm not even really an adult, and I've got a newborn, and I have no idea what I'm doing. And so I just. I remember feeling very strange about it in the moment, but then just kind of like putting it out of my head, I guess, because what. What was I gonna do, right? You know, I didn't have enough information to even know if it was strange or if I was just overreacting or she's being overprotective or, you know, just all these things. They. They went back home and they asked for pictures of my daughter, and I sent them pictures all the time, and we kept in touch.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And.

[Michelle Roberts]

In January of 2012, my daughter was just a few months old. They sent my uncle over to my house, which was rare. So he knocks on the door and I answer it. And we had a bunch of people over because my ex husband and I, we love to play video games. And so we would just have like, video game nights where everybody would come over and we would play World of Warcraft. And oh yeah, that's me announcing how nerdy I am.

[Todd Houston]

But so you're in good company.

[Michelle Roberts]

So, you know, I answer the door and I walk outside because clearly he is here to tell me something serious. Like he's not here for just a personal visit. So I. I step outside and he said, your dad sent me over. They're calling in the family for your brother. And in my family that means like they're calling the family to say goodbye.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What?

[Michelle Roberts]

Like he's not gonna make it. Looking back on this memory, it literally feels like I am watching myself. I fully dissociated from my body. I like watched myself fall to the ground and just sob. Just this, just. It's like it came, I don't even. It clearly came out of me, but it's like I wasn't even the one making the noise. Like just this, this awful sob, almost scream just, just came out of me. My husband at the time, he came outside to like, to check on me. You know, I think my uncle kind of filled him in, you know, to what was going on. And I don't. The next thing I remember after that is going to see my brother and they had placed him on hospice care. I remember going to visit and he was in his hospital bed. And you know, we stayed for a few days and he seemed to kind of start to improve a little bit. You know, I, I remember a few instances while we were there where he was kind of, you know, sitting up talking his Nintendo ds. You would have to pry that thing out of that kid's hand because that was just. All he wanted to do was play video games. I think a lot of nine year olds can understand that world. But, you know, at nine years old, all he cared about was, was Mario, Super Mario and.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And so after a few days I'm like, well, you know, he, he seems like he's, he's doing well enough for me to go home. And so, you know, we went back to Georgia, went home and then that was one of multiple times that I would get a phone call. Like that time they sent the uncle to my house. But then the next time it was like a phone call from my dad. You know, we're, we're calling the family in and he's not going to make it and we don't know how much longer he's going to be here. And there was a lot of. My mom would text me to tell me, you know, he's not doing well and his vitals aren't, aren't great and we're going to stop his, his feeds. You know, he had a feeding tube at this point. He had. Had all these same things my sister had when she was caught poisoning my sister. You know, the similarities, they still, you know, they'll always disturb me like how similar these two cases were. And there was just this back and forth of. They were going to turn off as feeds, and then I guess he would start doing a little bit better, and then they would turn him back on. To stop anybody, but especially to stop a child's food source. When you do that to somebody, right, it is a last case, last resort. Nobody wants to make that decision on a loved one ever. And I especially don't understand it when you. You're going. From turning it on and then turning it off and then turning it back on again and then turning it back off again. I mean, it's cruel. My brother was nine years old. One day you're feeding him and one day you're not.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What?

[Michelle Roberts]

And it just. I don't. I don't understand that. That makes no sense to me. And I remember there being a time where I. I felt like I couldn't have a real conversation with my mom. I never felt like I could have, like, real conversations with her. Anybody's opinion that was opposite of hers or anybody that ever wanted to question her and her decisions was never met. Well, it's not safe to do so. So he was on hospice. And that was. That was the yo, yo, back and forth, several calls of, he's not going to make it through the night. He's not going to make it through the week. That continued until March. And then In March of 2012, he passed away. I'll never forget the last time I saw him. He's on hospice care. He's got a hospital bed in his room. They had traded out his bright red race car bed with this hospital bed they put in his room. And he's got his feeding tube. He wasn't on oxygen at this particular moment when I was talking to him, but he was very frail. He was very skinny because they had stopped and started these feeds for him. And it was really late one night, and he had asked me to lay down with him. So I was laying in his hospital bed. Everybody else left the room, so it was just me and him. I'm laying there in bed beside him, and he's playing his Nintendo ds. He's playing Super Mario Kart because he would play Super Mario anything. He gets so frustrated, like he was this kid that he was such a perfectionist about these games that if he messed up at all, he would start the game completely over because he did not want to finish it. Not perfect. So he got so frustrated with it. He finally put it down and he stops and he looks at me and he said, michelle, when I. When I die, do you think I'm going to heaven internally? Panicking, because at this time in my life, you know, I was raised very Southern Baptist because my dad was a preacher for a little while. But at this time in my life, I was in the middle of deconstructing and figuring out if there was a God. Why is my brother laying here suffering like, what is going on? And, you know, I'm so internally, I like panic. And I just looked at him and I'm like, I'm not about to do anything but comfort this kid. You know, you're not going to look at a nine year old and tell them, no, there is no way in this world. And so I just. I remember touching his hair and he let me, which was such a big moment because he. He hated anybody touching his hair. Hated it. Would not let you touch his hair. He had this bright red, fluffy, beautiful hair with curls. And I remember, like running my fingers through his hair and put my fingers in his hair. And I said, baby, I said, you're gonna be okay. I said, yeah, you're gonna go to heaven and you're gonna be happy. Everything is gonna be okay. And he hugged me and he said, thank you. He said, you helped me not be scared anymore.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And.

[Michelle Roberts]

He said he was tired. So I. I remember getting up and holding it together, you know, not trying really hard not to cry in front of him and going to the room across the hall and just. I just lost it, you know, and I just cried. And I just. Just wondering, you know, if there is any sort of God out there. Why, you know, why are you letting this kid suffer this way? And there were just. There were so many things that even then I knew didn't make sense. And when he passed, it still didn't make sense. Like, the funeral that they had for him was almost like a circus. You know, it felt like it had very, very little to do with him as a person. And it was so much focus on my mom and my parents and, you know, what they wanted and how they wanted everybody to act and what they wanted people to wear. And so for years, I've, like, I've carried around this grief and this shame. And I spent so much time not grieving him and running away from the grief of losing him. Because as I've gotten older, you know, I started to figure out that there was never a positive test for what mom said he had. You know, I started learning things. I started digging into the records that my sister and I found years ago, and I started piecing things together. You know, we found her medical records and I found the experts that testified in the trial against my mom. What it had to do with my sister had nothing to do with my brother. But I found these people, and I started asking questions and piecing things together and getting as much information. And then I finally found a name for it, which was much housing by proxy. I started laying everything out, and it all started to make really awful sense. And the signs in my sister's case really, really match a lot of what my brother went through. The way she acted, her MO Seemed very similar. The attention she got from it, you know, the symptoms. She would parade online and parade to anybody that would listen and, you know, wheel him in with his wheelchair into church, but then he was just up walking around that morning beforehand, but he had to have his wheelchair to go to church. You know, just all these different things that don't make sense. And I looked for any answer. And I talked to her, you know, before I decided to go public. I talked to my parents, you know, and I just wanted answers. And I'll never forget the last real conversation that I will probably ever have with my parents. And just looking at my mom and still having empathy for her. And to be fair, that was before I really had a lot of the information that I do now. But just looking at her and telling her, like, you've got to be honest. You know, you've got to be honest about things you've done that you've never been honest with anybody about, even yourself. And to this day, you know, she still holds to. She made one mistake with my sister one time, and that was it. You know, she still holds to. My brother had this disease that he never had a positive test for that the symptoms don't line up for. And a disease that doesn't have a very high mortality rate. And through, you know, the last, like, year or so, I've really come to grasp the fact that my brother should have never died. And I fully believe, and I have a lot of evidence to back up and a lot of people alongside me that fully believe that he died at the hands of my mother. Hey, are you doing okay?

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Todd Houston]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Are you doing okay?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Quick break, and then we'll get back to it.

[Michelle Roberts]

What's up, guys? It's Candice Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac, and I'm Michael Arseneault, author.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Of the New York Times bestseller I Can't Date Jesus. And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where.

[Michelle Roberts]

We aren't just saying the quiet parts out loud. We're putting it all on the kitchen table. And Inviting you to the function. If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos. Welcome to Undomesticated. Follow and listen to Undomesticated, available wherever you get your podcasts. We're back.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I feel like I was. I was there for part of the process that took place over the last year.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Working with Andrea and I mean, would you call it a gradual process of going from suspecting this was true about Colin to that kind of total knowing?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, it was definitely. It was definitely gradual. And I mean, I think it's been even within the last, Gosh, probably two months, maybe even the last month. Really, that I even stopped kind of waffling back and forth between the two.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

You know, and. Because the truth of the matter is, Todd, I would love anything in the world. I would love to see a positive test.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

You know what I mean? I would, I would do just about anything to have his medical records or just, you know, I've. I've asked multiple times. I've emailed and called Birmingham Police Department to please do an investigation because of course I want answers, you know, because I guess that's it. When you don't have clear cut yes or no answers, there's a piece of me that just still wants to doubt.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And I. I mean, I think it's natural. I think that's a completely normal response to have, you know, like, nobody wants to believe that about anybody, but especially their own mother. And, you know, undoing. The undoing. The years of gaslighting and the years of not being able to trust myself and I mean, it's just, it's the craziest things that, that get to me now. I mean, it's just the smallest little things that just keep solidifying how much of a hold she had on me because, you know, so I went to cosmetology school and I started doing hair. And when I first started out, I was doing my mom's hair and one of my co workers was a curly hair specialist. And my mom kept touting that when her hair grew back, she had curly hair. Now, for some context, after my brother passed away, you know, after things in her life had calmed down, after essentially she wasn't getting as much attention anymore.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

My mom goes through this whole process where she sits us down and tells us that she is sick with this thing and she's only got two years to live. And this was like the end of 2019, the beginning of 2020. And so in the. And then, you know, the whole world explodes because of COVID And so the whole time Covid's going on, I'm also convinced that I am losing my mom, and she lost all of her hair. She said she was on chemo. You know, all these things are going on. We'll come to find out she was never on chemo. She was shaving her hair off, we can assume, because she was never on any medication to make her actually lose her hair. But she was convinced. She had convinced me. I don't. I don't even know how this is. This happened, but she had convinced me, right, that when her hair grew back from the chemo, that she. It came back curly. Because chemo curls, you know, are a real thing. People do experience that. However, even at this point, I know that she didn't even have chemo, right? And she still, you know, I. I'll never forget. I. You know, I went to my co worker and I said, you know, I really want you to cut my mom's hair because it's really curly now. And, you know, I don't have much experience with curly hair. I would like to learn from you. And, you know, my manager walks by, and she was like, oh, you know, did your mom go through chemo? Because I've heard people that have gone through chemo, and they. They say they'll get, like, chemo curls and their hair will be curly when it grows back. And I said, I just kind of stopped because it's like, how do I answer this question? And I said, well, I don't really know. And she looks at me very strange, and she said, you. You don't know if your mom had chemo? And I said, well, it's like. It's not funny, but it's like a. I'm sure, like, from her perspective, you know, it's like the strangest thing to hear out of somebody's mouth. And I'm like, well, it's really, really complicated to explain as to why. I don't know. And so I kind of went into the whole thing. It's like, well, pretty sure she didn't, you know, and, like, now I'm pretty much 100% sure she didn't. And so I go back and, like, just a few months ago, even I was, like, looking through these old pictures, and, you know, I've pulled out a whole bunch of old pictures of, like, me and my siblings when we were children. And I keep coming across these pictures with my mom with curly hair the whole time. But, like, how easily she was able to, like, convince me somehow, even though you know, I grew up with her, and it was right in front of my face the whole time. But just. Just being able to just, like, sit there and look at these old pictures and clearly identify that her hair texture is the same exact then years ago as it is now, and realizing I really just. Even though I knew she didn't have chemo, even though I knew she had not taken any medications to make her hair fall out, she was still somehow able. I was so easily convinced that, like, oh, I don't know, her hair grew back and now it's curly, and it wasn't curly before because I never. I never thought to think if that is a lie, you know, and I don't know if that'll make sense to everybody, but I just. You know, it's just wild how you can't think everything that comes out of your mother's mouth is a lie. Because if you thought every single thing that came out of her mouth is a lie, you would go crazy trying to figure out what is truth versus not.

[Todd Houston]

Whoa. Wow.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Is it irritating or something the way that people talk about gaslighting so much that it's kind of a buzzword and they kind of don't know what true gaslighting is?

[Michelle Roberts]

I mean, I. On the one hand, it is beyond frustrating. For the longest time, I would not even use the word because it is such a buzzword, and people just kind of, like, throw it around. And then, you know, I was at my first conference in San Diego, and it was the first time I had ever really spoken in front of people about the story. I was in a room full of people telling my story and telling people about my mom and telling people what had happened to my siblings and all this. And I don't even remember the person's name or really much about them other than just they were. They were a professional. I believe it was some sort of, like, psychologist or something. And, you know, they raised their hand and they were like, you were gaslit. In the most pure example, the most, you know, hellacious form of gaslighting I've ever heard.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Almost your entire life.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. And, you know, that's it. Just that feeling of believing somebody else before, I would believe myself. You know, I would believe things my mother told me before. I would believe myself, believe my own memory of it.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right. The hair and the photograph example is really powerful in that way, because it's like it was right in front of your eyes and you had photographs, and she said that reality is different, and that was convincing.

[Michelle Roberts]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

When you describe when you and your sister moved back in with your parents, and Colin was young, and you and him spent a lot of time together, you and your siblings, and it sounded like your mom was sort of depressed or disengaged.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And that all that changed when Colin got sick, or the narrative was that Colin got sick.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It sounded like that brought your mom out of depression in a way, or at least she became very sort of active and engaged in a way that she wasn't before. Is that kind of how it seemed to you?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, I just, you know, it just started occurring to me really, really recently. She was really disengaged and sleeping a lot and. Yeah, like you said, almost like seemed depressed, I guess, is the only way I could describe it. Is it. Was it. It looks like from the outside, like symptoms, like what I would classify as depression.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

I mean, who's to say? I still, you know, there. There is a possibility that he had something very real wrong with him.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And she could have also abused him.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And I think that's really important when you talk about Munchausen by proxy.

[Todd Houston]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

These children can have something medically wrong with them, and they can still be abused.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And so that was really hard for me to comprehend for a long time. You know, like, in my mind, could.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Both things be true?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. Like, in my mind, if I found out he was ever legitimately sick, then that meant therefore my mom wasn't medically abusing him. But that's not true. You know, there is a possibility that he had something happen. Yeah. And then that's kind of what triggered her.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It's kind of the case with your sister. Right. I mean, she was born and she was extremely medically fragile. And that was true.

[Michelle Roberts]

Right.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And then the abuse was true, too.

[Michelle Roberts]

Right. Yeah. I mean, she was. You know, we'll never truly know how much of her medical issues were faked or made worse, you know, by poisoning and all this. Of course they were. But then also, yeah, she was born early. She was born really premature. She did have, you know, some underdeveloped lungs, you know, as any child would. Born that early.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

Another big piece of that puzzle is there's a really large connection between preterm babies and Munchausen by proxy.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Todd Houston]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That's what I was just thinking. And that I've read as well.

[Michelle Roberts]

And it's like, which came first, the chicken or the egg sort of debate. It's like, you know, is there something happening in a mom's brain that happens? Like, something gets triggered if they have, you know, a child born that early? I mean, I think in a lot of cases, especially in my mom's case, there were a lot of attention seeking behaviors in. In high school, you know, of course, that I've heard from. From her siblings and people she grew up with and that sort of thing. Yeah, there were a lot of attention seeking behaviors for her growing up and in high school, but that's not always the case.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. I mean, I do not presume to know how much it's accurate or not. From what I remember something that your mom said when she was caught abusing your sister, that the thought of not having the support to take care of her that she was getting in the hospital was so terrifying that that's why she was doing it, because, I mean, it was a tension. Sure. But literally there was fear that, like, this child has a lot of health problems, and if it's just me taking care of them, that's terrifying.

[Michelle Roberts]

Right.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And it sounds like maybe that's a dynamic too in other cases where if a child is born premature, they have a lot of health issues. It's like having nurses and trained medical personnel around is a comfort.

[Michelle Roberts]

Right. And I know those cases definitely exist. Moms who are terrified or really anxious parents and may cross some lines and just do need the extra support. I think at some point, maybe my mom did fall in that category with my sister.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

But it's just a whole different narrative when you start poisoning your kids.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right. It feels like a point of no return or something.

[Michelle Roberts]

Right. Yeah, truly. And I. I guess that's it. You know, I've thought a lot about my dad over the past several months, and because I just. My dad always presented as this very passive, weak, sort of like, you know, hardly able to take care of himself, much less anybody else sort of role. And so I always, like. I remember being really close to my dad when my mom was at the detention center. You know, I would go visit my dad on the weekends. Once or twice I went to go see my mom at the detention center on a Saturday. But I just remember spending a lot of time with just my dad on those weekends when my mom was gone. Like, my mom was locked up, essentially, and just trying to decode, like, how you stand by and don't do anything. One of the things that I got to do when we were recording, recording the season of Nobody Should Believe Me, I got to sit down with my aunt, which was my. My mom's younger sister, and we were. We were sitting down and she was doing her. Her interview With Andrea, and she really. I had always questioned, I guess, what my dad knew versus what he didn't know. Like, he always tried to claim that he didn't know what was going on. Even the police transcripts in my sister's case, I read those. He doesn't know what's going on. You know, he's very confused. He has no idea. And my aunt actually watched the videos of where my mom was caught suffocating and poisoning my sister. And my dad was sitting in the room in the corner in a chair while my mom is on video suffocating my sister. And my dad has a newspaper up to his face, and he kind of takes the newspaper and, like, puts it down a little bit and, like, looks over it, and he looks at my mom, and he picks the newspaper back up and he continues to read. He doesn't do anything. Learning that as an adult just completely. I mean, it took everything that I already kind of knew about my dad, but it just. It truly. It removed any amount of respect I had for him as a father. And he had, you know, it. It wasn't. It wasn't shocking. But then it also was at the same time, I always had, I guess, very little respect for my dad, but I also had a lot of empathy for him. Like, I always. When you look at him, you can see, like, he's been beat down by the world. It's almost how he, like, carries it. And I always attributed that, you know, a large part to, like, how my mom treated him. My mom was very, you know, not even dismissive, derogatory towards him. You know, she was. She talked down to him, and, you know, she would treat him like he was stupid. And some days it would be. Every time he opened his mouth to speak, she was, like, annoyed by his presence sometimes. And, like, I saw that for years, and, like, I knew it wasn't right. Nobody should be treated that way.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

But then seeing him choose my mom over and over and over, and even to this day, still choosing her, and then hearing my aunt Sabrina also tell the story about how he was in the room and witnessing my sister's abuse and doing nothing, my God, I have no respect for that.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It is so dark.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. You know, it occurred to me at some point during all of this, during all of the Figuring all of this out and really coming into reality of the situation, there's no world in which really either of them. But talking about him specifically, you know, there's no world in which he could even admit to an ounce of what he has let Happen.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

Because he wouldn't be able to live with himself.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. That's. I've had that thought very distinctly, too, that it seems like there's a line that they crossed where it was just too much to admit to, too much to even acknowledge or accept. Unless, you know, I mean, if their values are anything like the sort of range of values that I know about in people, it's like it's too dark to accept. Even in themselves, maybe.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. If I had. If I had allowed something that dark to happen to one of my children, first off, I. I couldn't. I mean, I. You know, I just. There's no way. But I would not be able to. To live with myself knowing that I allowed my children to be heard that way.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. Thinking about people who engage in compulsive behaviors that are destructive, from what I understand, sort of the way out. If there is a way out, it starts with acknowledging it or talking about it. And it starts. Strikes me that maybe, like, that's not possible in this case.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

You couldn't find a group of people who could be there for you through sort of coming to terms with it.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I don't know that that's true, but I.

[Todd Houston]

It's.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It seems really hard.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. I mean, there are cases out there that I've. I've heard about where moms, like, do some pretty rough stuff to their kids. And, you know, they. They lose their kid. They go to prison for it. And while they're in prison, they. They work with a therapist and they take true accountability. But it is very rare, extremely rare, because you're right. Like, how do you. How do you take accountability for those things and then figure out how to come to terms with yourself? And I do believe that there is a certain point that there's no coming back from. I do.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right. That's what it looks like. One thing I was thinking about a lot when I first learned about your story is that it seems like there are these very powerful sort of beliefs about the, like, concrete safety of a maternal figure.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And maybe that's why a lot of people are kind of resistant to the idea of seeing this behavior or believing it even.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Is that there's a. You might only most call it a myth or something that, like, a mother would not hurt her child.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the worst things you can think about.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It truly is.

[Michelle Roberts]

I feel like most people can think of at least, like, one instance of a mom. Like, I'm sure if you start talking about Like a mom that harmed their kids. There's like a name associated. Like, most people, I think, have like a name that jumps out at them that they remember, you know, being in the news or like, and those people are known, are infamous for what they did to their kid and how awful that is.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

And that's it. It's really hard to see somebody like my mom because my mom presents so well and she seems so normal, you know. And I've had so many people reach out to me in the last couple months, you know, that were best friends with my mom a month ago.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

Who talked to her almost every day even a month ago, and who really, truly thought they knew her. And, you know, people saying my mom was there for them in their darkest moments.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Can we just say, because I don't know that we've said it here, what happened a month ago and when all this stuff became public.

[Michelle Roberts]

Oh, yeah, for sure. So when I decided to go public, it was kind of hand in hand with the podcast, nobody should believe me, with my good friend Andrea Dunlop. And she kind of, in a lot of ways, honestly held my hand through the whole process. And we recorded and she released eight episodes. That kind of spells out, you know, my whole life story and everything we're talking about here today. And in a lot of detail and in a lot of ways that I can't even fully explain. And with a lot of experts kind of weighing in.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. Pretty rigorous journalism.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. Truly, truly amazing. And that went live, so to speak, mid June. And so since mid June, since it went out to the public and all of this, you know, my mother's abuse has been exposed. She was employed by a nonprofit that does research for the disease that she claims my brother had. She was a very high ranking member in that organization and she was associated with it for 12 or 13 years and made a lot of friends and just really got in to the center of that. And I have had a lot of people from. In that organization, a lot of people who have the autoimmune disease that she claimed my brother had. A lot of people that actually have. That have reached out to me and that's been really, really eye opening. And with every person, I think that reaches out. You know, there's been countless stories coming out since then. And you know, I've. I've heard like she told one person she took PTO because my dad was in the hospital with cancer. And my dad does not have cancer and has not been hospitalized by it.

[Andrea Dunlop]

God damn.

[Michelle Roberts]

I mean, it's just crazy. The Number of things I figured out. And the financial fraud has been extreme. The amount of people she was literally defrauding, saying, this is going to families that need help, families that have sick kids that they can't pay their bills. When the hurricanes came through, you know, the south, she was saying, I'm taking up donations to give money to families who need to evacuate. And none of it was true. And the more information that I get, the more it has truly broken the person that I saw her as. I mean, it was already broken, but it was, like, in a different way. It's almost like seeing the person that I knew as utterly fake. She wasn't real.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It makes me think of, like, a super spell.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Like a spell was suddenly broken that colored your whole life.

[Michelle Roberts]

That's a really, really good way of putting it. Is it truly. Yeah, it truly felt like a spell kind of broke. It was very slow. I mean, it's been a very slow process of gradual coming out of it and learning all of these different things and then facing it and then not wanting to face it and what ifs, and. Yeah, it felt like it almost all came together. The week after that podcast came out.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Roberts]

I was driving back home from New Orleans. I was invited to go to New Orleans to an AbSec conference there, and I got to speak twice to a room full of professionals.

[Todd Houston]

This is.

[Andrea Dunlop]

This is a Munchausen by Proxy conference.

[Michelle Roberts]

It's a. It's a child. It's an overarching, like, child abuse conference.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Okay.

[Michelle Roberts]

And then, you know, the team with much housing support, which is, you know, Andrea's nonprofit that she started, there was a team of us, basically, that went to talk about Munchausen by Proxy, and I don't want to, like, make myself sound important, but a lot of the feedback. Oh, thank you. But a lot of the feedback we get from professionals, like, you know, lawyers, law enforcement, check child abuse, pediatricians, nurses, you know, a lot of the feedback we get is real stories, hearing real people's stories and about how this abuse affects the people that it's happening to and affects the family members that it's happening to. That is so strong because it's. It's. It really humanizes it and why it needs to be stopped and what happens when it's not caught and not reported appropriately.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right. I mean, this abuse really thrives in silence. Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, for sure. I got to go speak at that conference, and it felt just like this amazing full circle moment, and there was a lot of emotions that came up during that whole thing, and you know, I was driving back home from New Orleans, which is a solid seven hour drive for me from where I live now. And I was driving back home and I got this message from somebody that was extremely close to my mom, was extremely close to her, and was just kind of listing off all of the lies that she's told, all of lies that my mother has told since the podcast has been out saying she was on pto and in reality she got fired from her job.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

Because of all of this going public.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And seeing like, all the way, like just seeing that and seeing this person that I knew was so close to my mom and that, you know, seeing the ways my mom have, is still out there just lying to anybody and everybody that will listen and defrauding people and, you know, taking money from people and trying to get sympathy from people and painting me out to be a bad guy. All of this. It was just this, this moment. And it just finally, it truly did. Like you said, Taj, it felt like the spell was broken completely because I saw it for what it was. I saw her as who she is, as just somebody who will do nothing but lie and destroy and rip and claw and tear apart the people around her.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And part of that was you sort of lifting the spell for other people as well. So this friend was kind of like, would have maybe continued to believe in this false version of your mom and all the things she had done were it not for you speaking up.

[Michelle Roberts]

I mean, you know, I really. I really haven't even thought about it in that way, but.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, you've had a lot to think about.

[Michelle Roberts]

Well, I mean, don't get me wrong, I have had, honestly, a lot of empathy. And I do truly feel horrible for the people in my mom's life and the people kind of within the organization that she worked for. I have so much empathy for them because I truly understand that they had no idea who she was.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And their version of this person that they thought was a friend or a colleague or a helper, you know, was just shattered. Just overnight, essentially. Just absolutely shattered. And. Yeah, I mean, I guess in that way, absolutely. I guess I did, like, really break that spell for other people. I just hope that. I hope that those people find as much community and support is what I have.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Goddamn, Michelle, you have the biggest heart that I know about, I think.

[Michelle Roberts]

I don't know. I'm fortunate enough to know a lot of people with really big hearts, so I. I feel proud to be looped into that category, I guess. Feels good.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And you're Right at the top, as far as I'm concerned. You said that the last conversation you have with your mom, you think will be the last.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Does that. How does that sit with you?

[Michelle Roberts]

Going into it? I think I knew on some level it would be probably the last opportunity I got to have to bring up a lot.

[Andrea Dunlop]

She knew at that point that the podcast was going to come out.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. And I think I knew internally that our relationship would never recover from that. You know, for a while I was. I got to a place where I guess right after the conversation, thank goodness I had the wherewithal to record that conversation. And part of me felt really icky about doing that because I did not tell her I did. However, Georgia is a one party consent state, so. Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I think the tiniest bit of deception doesn't even begin to balance the scales between you and her.

[Michelle Roberts]

Well, and I, you know, even at the end of the day, I wish I had started recording stuff between her and I years ago, just because, again, like, going back to the gaslighting, and I don't use that term lightly or loosely.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah, you've. You've earned the right, if anyone has.

[Michelle Roberts]

But when you. When you have been gaslit to that level your whole entire life, it does kind of make sense to record a lot of conversations. I mean, honestly, I completely understand that. And there's a piece of me that truly wishes I'd started recording those conversations with her years ago.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

You know, because I. I do think that that might have answered a lot of questions I have. But, you know, I. I had the wherewithal to record that one because I. I was. I was grappling with reality. And, you know, I knew I was going to be really emotional during that conversation, and I knew I was going to walk away from it. And then she was going to reframe it, because she always had.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yep.

[Michelle Roberts]

You know, she was going to reframe it and make it sound different or look different than what happened. And. And I wanted to be clear about what I said. I mean, that was really the reason I wanted to be clear and remember what I said. And so I was able to kind of get home and I replayed it the next day. And I honestly, it was probably one of the first times in my entire life that I felt proud of myself. And I'm just kind of realizing that as I'm sitting here talking to you, like, that's the first time I've ever said that. But truly, like, it was. But the thing about it is, even listening to that conversation, I Still kind of held my punches, so to speak. You know, I still kind of drew back, and I wasn't even as confrontational as I could have been.

[Andrea Dunlop]

You were very diplomatic and empathetic and caring.

[Michelle Roberts]

I thought, I appreciate that.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And yet also assertive or boundaried. And it was incredible to see.

[Michelle Roberts]

Well, after the fact, I. As the month started to progress, and I replayed that conversation a lot. It was probably an obsessive amount that I replayed it. But, you know, going back through it after, I guess that's it. I feel like I kind of replayed it. Every stage of grief I went through, you know, and I. It's kind of. It's kind of occurring to me right now how different I can view that conversation based off where I was at in the process, because it hit me at one point, listening to it, that I should have been more angry and, you know, I should have been more. Because there are things that I still feel like I should have said during that conversation that I. That I didn't. But what I will say is that I'm really grateful. Doing the Nobody Should Believe Me podcast. At the very end, as we were kind of wrapping the recording up for that, I recorded a voice memo to my mom, and I address her directly. And on the. You know, the idea, if she ever, for some reason, listened to it, I wanted her to know how I felt. And I think it really, really, it did. It was like a last moment of addressing it all, you know, that I meant everything I told her in my initial conversation. I meant that she was deserving of way more than she ever got in childhood. You know, her childhood, I believe, was not great, but at the same time, her kids. I also deserved more than what she gave us.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And I have every right to call her out on that. I feel. Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

There was a lot you didn't get. From what I can tell.

[Michelle Roberts]

I think that's fair.

[Andrea Dunlop]

More than fair.

[Michelle Roberts]

I feel like I have talked a lot.

[Andrea Dunlop]

You sure have.

[Michelle Roberts]

But I still feel like I've missed some. Can you think of anything?

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, my God. I could.

[Michelle Roberts]

In particular, I mean, there's so much here.

[Andrea Dunlop]

We could go for so long. There's one. There's maybe two things. Do you have. Do you have more capacity?

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm okay.

[Todd Houston]

Okay.

[Andrea Dunlop]

A thing that could be fairly brief, I think, is I'm really glad we became friends.

[Michelle Roberts]

Me, too. You've been a piece of. A lot of understanding and a lot of healing and just. I. I've always had a really, really hard time Trusting people my entire life, understandably. No, I know why. And it's just. It's nice. It's nice that you've been one of those people to. To help me have some trust in the role again.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That feels really good. Sometimes talking helps.

[Michelle Roberts]

For sure. For sure. I mean, I never knew how much I liked talking about myself until. Until this. And I. I say that jokingly because the truth of it is, like, there is such healing that happens when you can talk about what happened to you and you can have people validated that experience.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I can't see anything any other way out of the situation that you've been in.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah, I guess you're kind of right. Like, truthfully, because I looked for a lot of ways. I looked for just about every other way I think a person could other than talking about it. And I tried a lot, and none of it worked until, you know, that first. That first support group I was in for Munchausen by Proxy, like survivors and family members. And I think that was the first place that I really, you know, started to even begin to understand what healing from something like this looks like. Like, just talking about it, it's incredible.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Thinking about that community and even, like the people who came to tell the story on the podcast with you, Sabrina comes to mind. You did a lot for those people, too, I think. And the Munch Houston support group, any. Anyone that speaks up about this thing that is so rarely talked about, it's healing. And also incredibly important in opening doors for other people to be validated as well.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And hopefully, like, maybe somebody who is still in the total grip of the gaslighting to start seeing things for what they are.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That doesn't seem unlikely to me that that will happen.

[Michelle Roberts]

Yeah. I really hope. You know, I was asked before why I did this, and I can really narrow it down to, like, three different reasons. The first thing I said as soon as, like, you know, my husband and I now talked about, of course, endlessly why I was going to do it and if it was the right thing to go public and. And all of this. And that was the first thing out of my mouth, was because if it helps one person not feel so alone.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

And not feel so crazy and not feel so isolated.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Michelle Roberts]

Then it's worth it.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. The other reasons are. Is Colin one of them?

[Michelle Roberts]

My brother deserves. He deserves to have his truth told, even if that truth is really, really ugly. You know, I. I don't believe there's a real thing as justice after someone is dead. Like, he's gone Nothing will bring him back ever. And so I. I don't believe that there's a true, like, justice in that regard, but I do. Being able to take back the narrative.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right.

[Michelle Roberts]

From his abuser.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Right. You were seeing your mother control that narrative and misrepresent it every day.

[Michelle Roberts]

Exactly. Yeah. And then the third reason is really, honestly the hardest one to talk about, because I know the rift that it's going to cause is my nephews. I have two very small nephews living in the house with my mother to this day, those children are not safe. Living with my mother. My hope is that I can put as much information about this out there about this type of abuse. But it looks like my story, what happened to my sister and really about my mother, that it'll save them, that somebody will step in the way. They didn't step in for my brother. Somebody will know what it looks like when they see it, and then those boys will be safe.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I don't want to speak out of turn, Michelle, but I think. I think you saved him. I mean, I don't think. I don't think it's gonna happen anymore in a way that seemed extremely likely when all of this was still in the shadow.

[Michelle Roberts]

I mean, I. I appreciate you saying that. I still have my concerns.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Of course.

[Todd Houston]

Of course.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I don't know, you know, better than me, but from the outside, it looks like I couldn't think of something you could have done to protect them more powerful than that.

[Michelle Roberts]

That's my hope.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That was intense.

[Michelle Roberts]

Well, you're amazing for sitting through however many hours, whatever hour we are.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Oh, God, Are you kidding?

[Michelle Roberts]

This not only sitting through it with me, but then also the numerous hours you spent.

[Todd Houston]

Oh, yeah, that was.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That was the most hours. But it's all. No, none of it was unpleasant. It's all felt purposeful and important and like. Yeah, like. And like an honor to be a part of it.

[Michelle Roberts]

I appreciate that. I think it takes a special person to see that, you know.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Look who's talking, Ms. Special Person.

[Todd Houston]

All right, folks, that's it. Take a break. Take care of yourself. Stretch. Go subscribe to Nobody should Believe me. Should listen to season six. Michelle is a badass and she has a social media account. Which is it? I forgot. What's the one where you post online? Insta. Instagram. Michelle Roberts is on Instagram. And if you want to be one step closer to being friends with Michelle like I am, go check out her Instagram @cseashell.s h e l l e she the shell has got an e on the end because her name's Michelle and it's spelled with an S on Instagram. It's a. You go to the Instagram and you put that in. It's a website. I think that they have pictures, maybe words too. I don't know. I feel like the world is passing me by. I guess I'm insecure and afraid. But you can, can be on Instagram. Maybe you're already on it. If so, it'll just be a hop, skip and a jump. Over to Michelle's profile. We recently featured a story by Andrea Dunlop, showrunner of Nobody Should Believe Me. There's a connection between Andrea's story and this story. If you listen to this and you are interested, I'd recommend you go back and hear Andrea on the episode entitled Believe Her. You're going to get more context about Michelle's story. If you are listening to this and you think it may be disturbingly relevant to your life, go to the Munchausen support network. MunchausenSupport.com is a nonprofit organization that Andrea Dunlop started to help anyone who's been in the blast radius of this devastating human behavior. Munchausensupport.com we're glad you found it. I gotta tell you, we are the I wonder if we're the poorest podcast. We may be. It's not a competition, but I can smell death. I can smell the death of this podcast. If you've been listening a long time, you know things have been tight for a long time. It's getting tighter. We are caught in the vortex of capitalism. We are on the brink of annihilation. It is very destructive. Disturbingly true. And I hate doing this. I hate asking you to give us money. I don't know what else to do. Death. It would be a shame. Not just for me personally, but definitely for me personally. If you don't have enough money to donate, I don't want you to. But if you do, I do. I'm not asking you to just give up your whole hard earned money for nothing. There is a really cool way that we can both get something out of this exchange. You may have heard of patreon.com on patreon.com you can become a patron of the Risk show and this gives you access to a ton of perks. Probably most significantly, there's a shit ton of episodes that only Patreon fans get to hear. So if you like the show, there is a lot of exclusive content available to you. If you become a patron [e-mail] it's patreon.com risk. If you do it, then we live patreon.com risk also, you can send direct donations. I don't know how. PayPal or something. Or you write Kevin. Just money. We just need money.

[Andrea Dunlop]

That's. That's it.

[Todd Houston]

If you have a story that's awful or funny or beautiful or silly, goofy, scary, weird, thoughtful, thought provoking, poetic, dramatic, traumatizing, send it. Keep putting on the show. Come get on the show. Just people telling stories. There's nothing all that fancy about our stories. We'll work with you. We'll help you out. You're not on your own here. We just have a nice time, really. Even if you're just looking for a friend, Maybe your story is not even that good. But you want to hang out, gain some storytelling, free storytelling training. That's really what you could get. Have a new friend and get some free practice. Always. All you gotta do is send us your pitch at risk-show.com submissions and come be my friend. I need you to be my friend. It's risk-show.com newfriend or wait, no submissions, but it could also be called friends. All right. That was it. That was the whole thing. I spent a lot of hours reading police reports and medical reports and courtroom transcripts looking into this story about Michelle's mom and her sister and her brother. And it was incredibly intense. And I was there to see Michelle.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Going.

[Todd Houston]

Moving, I would say, you know, broadly from the denial and bargaining stages of grief and coming to terms with what her mom did into the acceptance stage. So that will forever be one of the great honors of my life.

[Michelle Roberts]

And.

[Todd Houston]

And I am grateful to Michelle and I'm grateful to Andrea Dunlop from Nobody should Believe Me for bringing me in to do that. And I hope that you might feel something like inspired. Michelle shared all this with us. I don't think it'd be easy. I don't think it. It is easy. Doing what she did, bringing all that to light. Yeah. I often say thanks to the storyteller, but I don't think I've ever meant it this much. And this episode is for Colin. You're Ms.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Buddy. Yeah.

[Todd Houston]

Today's the day. Take a risk. And Doug Limu and I always tell.

[Michelle Roberts]

You to customize your car insurance and.

[Todd Houston]

Save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music.

[Michelle Roberts]

Limu, Save yourself money to today increase your wealth. Customize and save.

[Todd Houston]

We say that may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail]. liberty.

[Michelle Roberts]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual.

[Todd Houston]

Insurance Company Affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.