The Squabbles

Summary

Podcast Summary: RISK! – Episode "The Squabbles"

Host: Kevin Allison
Guests: Don Jewel Frazier, Leo, Taj Easton
Release Date: December 11, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this episode of RISK!, host Kevin Allison engages in a profound and candid conversation with Don Jewel Frazier and her colleague Leo, delving into a tumultuous experience Don faced while subletting her Brooklyn apartment. The discussion not only recounts the bizarre legal battle that ensued but also explores deeper themes of communication, empathy, and the impact of language in conflict resolution.

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2. The Subletting Dispute

a. Initial Agreement and Subletting Decision

Don Jewel Frazier shares her initial decision to sublet her Brooklyn brownstone shortly after graduating with a master's in policy. With limited financial means and the burgeoning popularity of Airbnb at the time, Don found a stunning apartment on a tree-lined street, which she deemed a dream space.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"I had found it through a former student who was also living in Brooklyn and just needed a place to live."
[03:02]

b. Emergence of Problems

As Don prepared for a two-month leadership program in Ghana, she arranged for a family friend's daughter to sublet her space. However, just before departing, the subletter's initial check bounced. Opting for a wire transfer, unforeseen fees reduced the expected $1,500 payment by $100.

Leo:

"Instead of getting the money that I'm expecting the $1,500, I'm out $100 for a pretty freaking good deal."
[06:13]

c. Escalation and Legal Action

The situation spiraled when the subletter accused Don of overcharging and attempted to terminate the agreement early. Emails became increasingly hostile, eventually involving the subletter’s lawyer mother, leading to Don receiving a lawsuit for $5,000 despite the inconsistent claims.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"This is my final and last offer. This is how much I will give you. It'll be exactly half."
[08:48]

Leo:

"I never received the keys back from K, but you see these long letters, I didn't listen to any of them because they seemed like such bullshit."
[11:20]

d. Appearance on Court TV Shows

Confused by the escalating situation, Don received invitations from various television court shows like Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown, who offered to cover her legal expenses if she appeared on their shows. Initially considering, Don ultimately questioned the legitimacy and potential outcomes of such appearances.

Leo:

"If I don't have a case because her mother is a lawyer, then at least, at the very least, I'll get these fees taken care of."
[13:55]

e. Resolution in Local Court

With the help of a colleague, Leo, who had faced similar harassment from the same subletter, Don decided to take her case to a local Brooklyn court. The courtroom experience was revelatory, as the judge dismissed the case due to inconsistencies and lack of evidence, leaving Don vindicated.

Leo:

"The judge was like, this makes absolutely no fucking sense, woman."
[70:33]

Don Jewel Frazier:

"That was a meaningful conversation to me, like, how to move the needle even slightly towards, like, just being able to have a conversation rather than yelling at one another."
[73:51]

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3. Communication and Language in Conflict

Following the recounting of the dispute, the conversation shifts to the nuances of language, particularly the use of the word "crazy," and its implications in describing individuals involved in conflicts.

a. The Use of “Crazy”

Don reflects on her frequent use of the word "crazy" to describe the subletter, questioning its precision and impact.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"I differentiate between when people say, like, oh, the situation was crazy... but then wanting to kind of examine a little more closely and seeing a little more significance when it's used, like, to describe a person."
[38:27]

b. Empathy in Conflict

The discussion emphasizes the importance of empathy and precise language in mitigating conflicts and understanding others' perspectives.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"Empathy is not the same as agreement, you know, and empathy doesn't get in the way of condemning another person's behavior."
[53:38]

Leo:

"If you have one side attacking you, you're like, you know, that's why I said I can only do so much."
[71:19]

c. Nonviolent Communication and Restorative Justice

Drawing parallels to Nonviolent Communication and Restorative Justice, Don and the guests discuss strategies for fostering dialogue without escalating conflicts.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"It's about empathy. It's about finding ways to use language... to build empathy which may lead us towards compassion."
[42:53]

Taj Easton:

"It reminds me of restorative justice... being able to communicate with somebody who's done you wrong."
[43:22]

d. Practical Implications

They explore real-world applications of empathetic communication, citing examples like Daryl Davis' conversations with Ku Klux Klan members, highlighting how listening and empathy can lead to unexpected outcomes.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"He's a sort of North Star or a compelling example to me of how this approach can be wildly effective."
[55:23]

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4. Reflections on Modern Discourse and Scams

The conversation shifts to broader societal issues, including the proliferation of scams and the challenges of maintaining effective communication in an increasingly polarized environment.

Leo:

"It's the wild, wild west element that... there's so many scams all over the place right now."
[25:29]

Don Jewel Frazier:

"People are getting different facts or they're perceiving them so wildly differently that there's really hard to find common ground."
[63:18]

a. Evolving Scams and Vulnerabilities

They discuss how scams have become more sophisticated, exploiting technological advancements and leveraging social media to manipulate victims.

Leon:

"I get so many emails now that are, hey, Ms. Fraser, your contract is not quite ready to be processed until you click on this link."
[31:07]

b. Protecting Mental Health

The guests highlight the importance of mental health in navigating conflicts and avoiding the depletion caused by hostile interactions.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"I'm feeling it on a personal level just hearing the way... people across the aisle from one another are talking to one another."
[58:16]

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5. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt reflections on the necessity of precise language and empathy in fostering meaningful conversations, especially in the face of adversity and conflict. Don Jewel Frazier emphasizes the transformative potential of shifting from condemnation to curiosity, advocating for a more compassionate and understanding approach in interpersonal interactions.

Don Jewel Frazier:

"Empathy is not the same as agreement... It's a means of preventing communication from breaking down."
[53:38]

Leo:

"I'm glad you were able to turn those tables and not end up on television."
[29:42]

---

Notable Quotes:

• Leo:

  "This is my final and last offer. This is how much I will give you. It'll be exactly half."
  [08:48]

• Don Jewel Frazier:

  "I've been thinking about how to use language to facilitate empathetic perspectives of other people."
  [39:46]

• Taj Easton:

  "Some of the things that you're talking about kind of remind me of utilizing that process a bit more to define the words."
  [52:22]

---

Final Thoughts:

"The Squabbles" episode of RISK! is a compelling narrative that intertwines a personal legal battle with profound discussions on communication and empathy. Through Don Jewel Frazier's experience, listeners gain insights into the complexities of conflict resolution and the pivotal role language plays in shaping our interactions and understanding of others.

Transcript

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[Kevin Allison]

Oh no, not before the holidays.

[Zycam Advertiser]

Your cold is coming.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Your cold is coming. Thanks Revere. I really should keep Zycam in the house.

[Taj Easton]

Getting a cold is on no one's wish list.

[Kevin Allison]

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[Leo]

Shorten your cold at the first sign with cold shortening products from Zycam, Number one cold shortening brand available in stores.

[Kevin Allison]

Or see where to [e-mail].

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Hello folks.

[Kevin Allison]

This is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison, and today we're checking in again with our dear friend and colleague Don Jewell Frazier. First, Don and I have a conversation about a brouhaha she experienced over a New York City apartment. Then our producer, Taj Easton had a further check in with dawn about ways to communicate with folks who are combative. Don, by the way, will be launching her her own podcast version of her own beloved storytelling show, going back from a long ways back. Barbershop Stories. So look that [e-mail] and here's dawn in conversation with me now with a story we call the Squabbles. What was going on in your life that kind of led to this moment with subletting your apartment?

[Leo]

Well, you know it was 2006ish, and I had finally graduated from graduate school. International affairs wanted to save the world.

[Taj Easton]

And so moving to Brooklyn was the.

[Leo]

Best because it was a brand new place, it was an international vibe. But I had a master's in policy. People in policy don't get paid a ton. This isn't business school. So Airbnb was a thing. It was very popular. And the place that I had in Brooklyn was stunning. It was on a tree lined block, beautiful windows, and just lots of space considering the value that I was getting.

[Kevin Allison]

Wow.

[Leo]

Everybody who I met was like, this is a dream. How did you find it? And I had found it through a former student who was also living in Brooklyn and just needed a place to live. So fortunately, I was one of those people who ended up in Brooklyn, New York, in a brownstone on a tree lined street, trying to make ends meet, but realizing that, you know what, with a little extra help over the summer, Airbnb being my place, it'll be even better.

[Kevin Allison]

Wow. Yeah. You know, people always recommend subletting, and I've always been a little bit anxious about the whole idea of doing that, but if you can find a really reliable subletter, it can be amazing.

[Leo]

Oh, well, that was exactly the point. I was like, you know, okay, great. I don't need to jump full into this whole Airbnb thing, but I did hear from my family that my mom's friend's daughter, so, you know, family friend's daughter was coming to Brooklyn. She was right out of college and was going to be doing an internship, so she needed a place to stay. And it just so happened to overlap with the days that I was going to be traveling and doing an international leadership program with a bunch of kids in Ghana. So I was like, this is perfect timing. I can test out subletting my room, my space. I can do this leadership training program with a bunch of kids in Ghana and life will be good and I'll continue to just grow.

[Kevin Allison]

Perfect. How long was this trip going to be?

[Leo]

The trip was going to be about two months. So it was a good chunk of the end of June, So July, August, and then right back to school in September. You know, everything was going to be a wonderful two months away with a bunch of students in Ghana and learning the culture, learning the people, and just, you know, doing some nice work.

[Kevin Allison]

Lovely.

[Leo]

Painting some schools, teaching some of the kids English, working with foster kids. It was just going to be a great summer.

[Kevin Allison]

That's awesome.

[Leo]

Yeah. Until things started to turn just kind of wildly rather Quickly.

[Kevin Allison]

With such a pleasant beginning, we knew that things were gonna take a turn.

[Leo]

We just knew that something was going to go awry. I was expecting it to be maybe with the crazy teenagers I was dealing with in Ghana. Of course, maybe some kids would be running off and, like, not paying attention and not really there to do service. But instead, the day before I leave, the check that she's given me has bounced. And considering I have about a day left before I actually leave the country, I mention it to her. I'm like, hey, can you take care of this bounce check? It didn't go through for whatever reason, and she asks if I instead would be willing to take a wire transfer.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Hmm.

[Leo]

I've never received a wire transfer before, but I guess I could figure it out. So I say, sure, just send me, you know, the 1500 bucks. No worries, it'll be taken care of. So the day I'm leaving, she sends in a wire transfer. I see that it's processing on my account, so I thought, okay, great. But when I get to Ghana, I notice that it's not just the wire transfer that's a little bit funky. But there was an incoming fee for two things. An incoming fee for the first balance check and an incoming fee to receive the wire. So now, instead of getting the money that I'm expecting the 1500, I'm out $100 for a pretty freaking good deal. I mean, this is a large apartment, beautiful part of town, and I'm passing off all the benefits of this to her in a nice cheap package. But no, instead she starts to complain that I am trying to get over on her, and I ask. I'm trying to get over on you for the $100 that you owe me for a bounced check and for incoming wire fee. I don't quite understand. Just drop off the money with the other roommate who lived on the other side of the apartment, and everything should be great. But that's when things really started to get weird. A couple days later, I get a scathing email. I'm no longer staying here. This is not what I agreed to. This is not what I signed up for. Wow, that's too far from where I'm living. Oh my God, I want out in a month. Keep in mind, now this is about two weeks into the two month process. And so I say, I'm sorry, this is not working out for you. If you would like to leave, that's no problem. I'll return a portion of what you have spent, since you're spending a portion of the time There, let's say half and half. She says, okay, agreed. So she agrees to a move out date. This is all over email. But then things got even trickier because then her mother jumps in on the thread and her mother is a lawyer.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, God.

[Leo]

And her mother says, well, no, we're not going to pay you the additional hundred dollars. You know, there's all these things that, you know, you should have been out of the apartment the day earlier. And starts to bring in other issues that were never really talked about or never really addressed. But for whatever reason, they do not want to agree to the date of the move out. So this is going on for now, three weeks into my time, and I really just need this to be done.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

So I say, this is my final and last offer. This is how much I will give you. It'll be exactly half. You will move out on August 31st if you agree to it. Great. If you don't, I'm not going to be responding to any more of your emails. At which point I received the longest email I've ever received in my life. You are running a scam on the public. You are a disgrace to society. I'm gonna be telling your landlord about this. I'm gonna be telling the public about this. And I was just nervous. Like, what in the world is going on?

[Kevin Allison]

I mean, you were supposed to be having this, like once in a lifetime sort of experience. Like this sort of change your perspective on the world experience on the other side of the world. And meanwhile, you're just completely embroiled in this insane Brooklyn apartment. Bullshit, Bullshit.

[Leo]

And the problem was, because I was in such a remote area, I would receive Internet access maybe for about a half hour at nighttime, maybe to catch up on Facebook, but instead, I'm reading scathing emails, barely having the energy to deal with this woman. I don't know what she wants at this particular point in time. And it's wasting my time, my energy, my soul. I just feel depleted. Like, am I the kind of person that people need to be aware of? Like, I honestly, genuinely had no idea what was going on.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God. You know, like, it begins to feel like she does this sort of thing, that she's a crazy making kind of person, you know, that all of a sudden, surprise after surprise after surprise.

[Leo]

Oh, 100%. So let me tell you, Kevin, I mean, after I started getting these scathing emails, I just disconnected. I blocked her. I blocked her mother, blocked all incoming emails. And I said, you know what? I'll deal with this when I Get home scared that perhaps my belongings would be trashed, Scared that perhaps she would do something inside the apartment itself, but not really knowing. So just pretty much holding my breath for the next four weeks until I finally do return to the United States. And when I get back, I asked my landlord immediately. He lived on the bottom floor of the brownstone, so it was really easy to get in touch with him. I asked him immediately, did you ever receive the keys back from K? And he said, yes, I did. I also received these long letters, like mailed to me talking about how you were a scam on the public. I didn't listen to any of them because they seemed like such bullshit, but.

[Taj Easton]

I don't know what was going on.

[Leo]

It was like a scam mayor campaign in a non political time. It was just very, very fucking bizarre. And so I said, okay, no worries. I'm so sorry. I know she's probably been harassing you, but at least like, you have the keys back. Now I can go settle this situation. So I go back to my room, I clean up, I burn some sage to get the bad spirits, like, out of like my lovely, beautiful apartment. And I continue on with my life until about a week later, I start to get notices in the mail from Brooklyn County Court. I'm being sued by her for $5,000 for breaking a sublet.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

And I don't understand what she's talking about. We have not signed the contract. $5,000 is almost three times the amount that she actually paid me for the two months that she was going to be staying there. The numbers were not adding up. But the problem is mom is a lawyer, right? So her mom must know something that I don't. And I am freaking out. And then more letters come, but this time they're not from Brooklyn County Court. This time they're coming from all of these judge shows. You know, like those judge shows on television. They're starting to come from Judge Mathis, Judge Joe Brown, Judge Judy. I'm like, what? How are these people getting my information? Oh, my God. And I can't believe that I'm being summoned to court for $5,000 for something that's not making any type of damn sense.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

So I open up one of the letters, it's from Judge Joe Brown. And I look over the details. Dermis, Frazier. We understand that you're being sued by Kay, leaving out her last name. And due to the interest in this case, we would like to offer both you and the plaintiff the opportunity to come on the show. And here's the best part. If you lose your case, we'll pay all the expenses.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, okay.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Geez.

[Leo]

I start to think about this. Okay, well, if I don't have a case because her mother is a lawyer, then at least, at the very least, I'll get these fees taken care of. They're paying for my flight, they're paying for my hotel, and they'll pay for my case.

[Kevin Allison]

Is the show shot in Los Angeles?

[Leo]

Well, the one I was considering was Judge Joe Brown, which is in Chicago.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

So I thought about it and I thought, hmm, all right, I seriously have to consider if this is a good option. But then randomly, about two days later, I get yet another inquiry. This time is coming on messenger, and it's like, hey, are you Dawn Fraser? Are you being sued by an individual in Brooklyn? I'm thinking that this is a producer from a show. This person has no kind of identity connected to him on messenger, but he does have a Facebook profile and it's not a producer. He's not a. I'm like, who is this guy? So I write him back, I'm like, who are you and what is this about? And he says, I have some information for you that might be of interest if you are indeed the Don Fraser who's being sued by this person. Still, I don't know what this means, why he's talking in code, but I'm very intrigued because it seems like he might be able to help. I write back and I say, I'm.

[Taj Easton]

Not willing to give you any additional information.

[Leo]

Yes, I am John Fraser, and if you are willing to help, I'd like to hear about it. If not, please, let's get on with this. He writes back a long message on Facebook messenger saying, well, I just so happen to know the person who was suing you. She's crazy. She's trying to run a scam on the public and I might have a solution for you.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Hmm.

[Leo]

Are you interested?

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, no. Oh, gosh. Now I would be worried that he was in cahoots with her.

[Leo]

100%. I continued to ask him questions to vet him, and he definitely seemed legit. So I was like, okay, you know what? Sure, let's go, let's get some coffee. Let's see what this is all about. So we meet up on the Upper west side, and that's where I met Leo. Leo apparently had a whole scenario unfold that was so parallel to mine that got him so aggravated that he knew he was going to find me in his kids situation. K had moved in with Leo directly after me. So directly after leaving from my apartment, tried to leave from his apartment and sue him, saying that he did not pay the right amount, that she overpaid him, and once again was trying to sue him. The difference being Leo was a housing lawyer, and he was not going to take this.

[Kevin Allison]

Holy shit.

[Leo]

So he was not going to deal with any of her drama. But it got worse once he kicked her out. She decided, I'm going to mess with this guy's business. Because not only was he a housing lawyer, but he was also a Realtor. And remember back in the day when, like, you could, like, put ads for an apartment up on Craigslist or up on Zillow or up on Redfin?

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So he had different postings that he had on Craigslist. And in order to get business, people would respond to those posts. They would come, check out the apartment, et cetera, et cetera. She intentionally went through every single one of his postings and flagged it.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh.

[Leo]

And so because it was flagged, Craigslist was saying, this is the legal post it's been reported on. And so none of the people who are looking for apartments could find Leo's apartments. She had flagged more than 36 listings over and over and over again. And Leo lost his mind. He was calling up Craigslist on the daily. He was mad that she was, like, even, like, in his aura. So he was determined to find me, but I was like, wait, wait, Leo, I'm missing part of a part of the story. She lived with you. She got mad at you.

[Taj Easton]

She tried to sue you.

[Leo]

How did you find me? How did you get my name? And he said, oh, well, I received some mail that was from Judge Joe Brown. And in it, it says, I see that you are trying to sue John Fraser in the state court. Would you like to take this to the show? And so when I saw that she was suing somebody and she was also trying to sue me, I decided to look up every single Don Fraser I could find on Facebook to see if I could help.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I was like, wow. And how many did you go through? He said, probably about 20 Don Frasers before I actually found you.

[Kevin Allison]

That's amazing.

[Leo]

Like, so you are dedicated to this. I was like, so what do you want to do? Like, how do you want to deal with the situation?

[Taj Easton]

And he leans in, and I'm like.

[Leo]

You know, sipping our coffee. He's like, I have a plan.

[Taj Easton]

I want you to go onto Judge Joe Brown.

[Leo]

Let the producers know you have A secret eyewitness. She's not gonna know who your eyewitness is. But I lived with her. I know how crazy she is. I know that she's running around trying to sue people for bullshit and is causing havoc for everybody.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, she's like a professional bad roommate.

[Leo]

100%. 100%. Just trying to like run scams on the public so that she can get, you know, money out of it.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh my God.

[Leo]

And her mom was the one behind it.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Mm.

[Kevin Allison]

Amazing.

[Leo]

So Leo is ready to go and I say, you know, I've been thinking about this. This could be great in case she does have a case. I don't know if she has a case, but I also do not want this to be the first thing that people find when they look up. Dawn Fraser storyteller oh yeah, right, right.

[Kevin Allison]

Uh huh.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Mm.

[Leo]

So instead I say, look, I'm not going to go on the show, but will you still be an eyewitness if we do court locally here in Brooklyn? And he's like, yeah, you know what, that's a good idea. I'll hide by the side and when you need me, I'll pop out. So, okay, great. We have a plan. We're going to go to Brooklyn court, he's going to stay in the hallway. He's going to pop out when I need him as an eyewitness, and we're going to make this case closed. Months go by. Case number one comes up. Leo is out in the hallway. The case is not called. Everybody's dismissed. About a year goes by, the case is called up again. She's there, I'm with my roommate. This time she is with somebody else. I don't know who this person is, but I'm assuming that they're a lawyer. Once again, Leo's out in the hallway. Once again, the case is not called up. About six months later, two years after this initial whole drama had started, we go to the courtroom. Leo is in the hallway. This time she's with her mother. And this time I'm with a friend who's a lawyer as well. Not a housing lawyer, but hopefully somebody who can provide some type of emotional support. We go up to the front and the judge starts hearing our case. She starts mentioning how she subletted the place, how it wasn't what she expected, how she moved out. And because she moved out, she wanted X amount of money back, plus the money for emotional trauma and for moving expenses and for all this other kind of like loss of work, all this other kind of like bullshit. The judge just like, looks at her and she's like, I don't. I don't understand. Like, when did you actually return the keys to Ms. Fraser? Well, I didn't return the keys to Ms. Fraser because she wasn't here. Well, when did you return the keys to the landlord? And she says, August 31st, which was the day that I had returned back from the country. The judge says to me, is that when you receive the keys? I said, yes, she returned them to my landlord because the landlord lives on the bottom floor. And I got the Keys on August 31st. And the judge looks very confused at this point, and she turns over to Kay and says, if you return the keys on the last day of the sublet, then why do you think that Ms. Fraser owes you anything? And she said, well, I moved out before then. I wasn't there the entire time. And the judge says, well, how was she supposed to know that? How was anybody supposed to know that if you have access to the property? She's like, well, just because I had access, I wasn't living there. And now the judge is getting mad. Now the judge turns to Kay's mom and says, kay's mother, you are a lawyer, correct? She says, yes. Do you know the very simple fact of the matter is if you have access to the property, she doesn't owe you anything. And all of us are just, like, dumbfounded. And she starts going off. No, you, Honor, she told her this. She told her that she would have access to this and this and this. And the amount of time that she was there is not reflective. And the judge is just, like, starting to, like, shake her head. And I'm slowly but surely starting to lean back because I'm realizing that this is. This is going in my favor. I might not need Leo as a key eyewitness.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, yeah, Is he waiting in the wings still?

[Leo]

He's still waiting in the wings. He still has not made his surprise appearance, but he is ready. He is ready to jump in on this. Instead, the judge turns to me and she's like, well, didn't you countersue? I had completely forgotten that once I saw that she was suing me for, like, loss of work and emotional trauma, I was like, well, I'm gonna do the same shit then.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Sure.

[Leo]

I'm like, I'm gonna countersue her for, like, $3,000 for the same BS. And I said, oh, that's right, your Honor. Yeah, well, you know, I was countersuing for, like, loss of work. And the judge was like, listen, listen, listen, listen. We're only dealing with, like, actual, practical numbers here. Okay? There's no loss of work. There's no emotional distress. We are dealing with hardcore numbers. Those hardcore numbers are set. You had access to the property. This is a close. I don't even know why I. Wasting my goddamn time. The judge is just fuming at this point, and I'm just starting to, like, lean back as I'm like, okay, this is going in my favor. As they start to argue with her, I just turn and I ask the judge, excuse me, but can I be released? And she's like, yeah, I pretty much know the verdict of this case. You're gonna get a letter in the mail with my judgment, but I'm already telling you now it's gonna be thrown out. And they just start to yell at her. And I say, thank you very much, you, Honor. It's been a pleasure. I leave the building. I go scouring to see if Leo is still there. Has he witnessed this? Does he feel vindicated? Does he feel like he's. But I don't see him anywhere. I call him on the phone to see, like, maybe he's, like, behind some other pillar, just, like, waiting. Maybe he's at the back of the room. But no response. So I gather all my stuff, and I head home with my friend. We're having some celebratory cocktails when I finally get a text back from Leo. I'm like, leo, like, where were you? Like, were you there? What happened? He's like, I came. It was taking so long. I didn't know what to do. I was like, leo, like, after all of this time, all of the years that it's taken for this case to actually happen, it finally has happened. And he's like, you know what? You're right. But, you know, I'm glad that you finally have this case closed. And I also realized that maybe Leo didn't need to show up because had the judge found out that he had gone through K's mail in order to find me, we might have had a whole other scenario.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, wow. Goodness gracious. Do you happen to know if he ever had his day in court with her?

[Leo]

No, they ended up, like, it didn't get processed. So, no, he never had to deal with her, but. Oh, God, I wouldn't be surprised if she's trying to do this exact same shit to whole other group of people all over New York.

[Kevin Allison]

I am sure. I feel like. I don't know, but I feel like there's a little bit of a wild, wild west element that kind of arose with the Internet and also, like, having a con artist as president for a while where I feel like there's just so many scams all over the place right now, and there's sort of. It feels like our society makes too much room for narcissists and sociopaths and just super manipulative creators of drama to take the air out of the room. And, yeah, I feel like the more. The more decent you are, sometimes that's the more vulnerable you end up being for, like, not suspecting. Oh, my God. I just thought this was gonna be an easy, like, ba, ba, ba. A trade. Great. This works for you. This works for me. Okay, that settled. I can go off to Ghana for a little while.

[Leo]

I just wanted to enjoy my time to, you know, to be with the students, to be with the orphans, you know, to really provide and give back and to be sued.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, it was like an altruism. There was a lot of altruism in the meaning of the trip you were taking.

[Leo]

Absolutely, absolutely. And so much of my energy was sacked from this bullshit.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my goodness gracious. And I think that some people just get paralyzed by that sort of someone coming at you with, oh, I'm gonna sue you, yada, yada, yada. And just using a lot of big words and a lot of bravado and, oh, my lawyers. Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

And being a threat to the public and a threat to society.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes.

[Leo]

Like, just like all these, like, demeaning my character.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my.

[Leo]

For what?

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, for nothing.

[Taj Easton]

For nothing.

[Kevin Allison]

It's so upsetting to have, like, a bad roommate period, you know, just to have someone who you're sharing the space with who gives off bad energy. And of course, you weren't, like, living side by side with her during this story. But there's also the weirdness of feeling like, okay, that's my home. And I'm just getting these missives that are getting crazier and crazier about this person who has access to my home, you know?

[Leo]

Absolutely. And also, I don't think that $100, you know, if you bounce a check and then send a wire transfer and you have incoming fees, that shouldn't really be all that much to fuss about.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Especially considering it's a great, great apartment.

[Taj Easton]

And a great rate.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Taj Easton]

It was incredible. It was incredible.

[Leo]

I mean, for me, I definitely never after that, did I have another subletter.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nerve wracking in some ways to think of other people doing God knows what in your space.

[Leo]

Exactly. Yeah. I Did find some underwear in her in the room. The only thing that she had left behind when I cleaned up and I was like, ew, nasty.

[Kevin Allison]

Right, right, right. I was afraid you might come home and find that your rabbit was cooking on the stove or something like that. I always remember that from Fatal Attraction. Like, why I always go to that as the nightmare scenario. I don't even have a rabbit.

[Leo]

I wouldn't have been surprised if she had find the mouse that liked to, like, hang out in the apartment and boil them and leave that shit on the stove. Wouldn't have put it past her. I would not put it past her.

[Kevin Allison]

Well, I'm glad it turned out the way it did. I'm glad you were able to turn those tables.

[Leo]

Totally, totally.

[Kevin Allison]

And not end up on television. That was so surprising that it's funny that there's like a television industry that.

[Leo]

Kind of like, well, pay for these cases.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, it's so kooky. It kind of feels like another part of Scam Nation.

[Leo]

I had to do some digging to figure out, like, how did they actually find my case case? Because that was like another mystery for quite some time. And realized that they have, like, producer slash story scouts. So because it's, you know, it's public, you know, you can search these cases and kind of get a sense of what they're all about.

[Kevin Allison]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. And probably if they sense that someone is a drama creator, if they said, ooh, this person sounds like she's rather dramatic in the way that she's presenting her case, that's ideal for the show, 100%.

[Leo]

I mean, I'm sure that she would have made an excellent, excellent guest for.

[Taj Easton]

Drama television that I wanted nothing to.

[Leo]

Be a part of.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, Well, I keep thinking that the older I get, the more I have to keep myself educated about. About scams and how people are doing scams, because it seems like that is an ever evolving thing as well.

[Leo]

Oh, absolutely. I get so many emails now that are, hey, Ms. Fraser, your contract is not quite ready to be processed until you click on this link. Right. I have a new contract. Okay. Okay, great. Oh, they're sneaky, Kevin. They're sneaky. They now know the industry that you work in and how to make you click.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, totally. Right. For sure. Especially if they get you when you're a little worn down or something, you know?

[Leo]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Allison]

Well, good luck to us both facing this world of scams.

[Leo]

And keep an eye out for them because they are. They are definitely getting trickier, smarter. You know, back in the day you could kind of tell if a scam was a scam.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

If you had enough insight or background or knowledge, you might know.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now I'm clicking on links like, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Oh, maybe I shouldn't have opened this email. Oh, maybe I shouldn't have downloaded this update. They're just everywhere. Totally everywhere.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

One of my favorite shows is actually Scam Goddess.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, what is that?

[Leo]

It's a podcast where she talks about all these different. Oh, scam stories.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are interesting, too, because they'll often give you insight into that psychology. That psychology of wanting to. Like, psychology of pathological liars or just people who are very manipulative. And then also sort of little bits of industry that can pop up around. Like, for example, fellas will hit me up on Grindr, and I'll think, this guy looks too beautiful, you know? And I'll say, oh, well, what neighborhood are you in? You know? Because they'll know that I'm from Brooklyn, and they'll say, oh, well, I'm by the farmer's market, you know? And I'm like, okay, but which one? You know, when they can't, like, name specific things about this or that Brooklyn neighborhood, then I start to know what's going on. But I heard that if you do something like, say, oh, can you send another picture? It will be sent to another department. Like, the person who's typing out a conversation with you will send it over to the pictures department. And then that person. They've got staffs of people doing this.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[Leo]

I mean, I've been hearing, like, also, like, on the apps that now their motivation isn't really even to find you somebody, but to keep you, like, as a member so that they can keep on getting your money.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So the illusion of things possibly, like, oh, maybe. Maybe this young lad here, when in reality that person is a bot. It's not a real person, but you're meant to think, like, okay, I just need to hang onto this membership just one more month. Maybe next month.

[Kevin Allison]

Right. Cause I'm about to find my Mr. Right.

[Leo]

Exactly. Exactly. Scams, Kevin. It's all freaking scams.

[Kevin Allison]

Oh, no. Well, we will keep our eyes glued to the skies and our feet to the ground, and we will weather these scammy storms hell. Well, stick around for more of Dawn's story.

[Leo]

We'll be right back.

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[Leo]

We're back. I know how crazy she is.

[Kevin Allison]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Leo]

She's crazy.

[Kevin Allison]

She's a crazy making kind of person, you know, getting crazier and crazier, not.

[Leo]

Making any type of damn sense.

[Kevin Allison]

Insane bullshit.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes. Cool. Thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me today. Yeah, all my thoughts about this story and wanting to talk with you today are really about my own relationship with language and these sort of habits which are largely automatic or subconscious. But which I have been thinking more about and specifically around this word crazy that came up a couple of times in the story. It's a word that I use so, so commonly. And when I'm like. Since like, tuning into it more often, just like, so ubiquitous. And I differentiate between when people say, like, oh, the situation was crazy or something, I feel like a pretty clear, easy translation that means like, oh, like it was, you know, wild or action packed or like, bizarre or something like that.

[Leo]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

But then wanting to kind of examine a little more closely and seeing a little more significance when it's used, like, to describe a person, you know?

[Taj Easton]

100%. 100%, yeah. And I think that the thing about language is we do sometimes, especially as storytellers do, have a way of defaulting to words that maybe are not the best descriptors of what somebody's actual actions are or their intent. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting when by default that word is meant as an umbrella term when in reality, as a storyteller, it's meant to be something very specific in the mind of the storyteller, in this case, me. But sometimes that maybe doesn't always capture the essence of. Of the intent of me, the storyteller, and what the person was, how I was really feeling, or, you know what I'm saying that kind of was.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, yes, it can be imprecise. Basically, using the word crazy is sort of less precise than maybe some other description.

[Leo]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And not suggesting that's what was happening in your story, but in my experience, it can be a way of sort of, I don't know, like closing the books on a person and potentially missing an opportunity for more complete understanding of or description of what's going on for a person.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah. I just wanted to say a couple things, like, first of all, that I feel kind of under qualified to discuss all of this with any authority and just grateful to you to have a conversation about it. The amount of energy I put into thinking about language and communication and words has, like, shifted a lot in the last couple years. Like two and a half years ago, I had the most devastating breakup, Dawn. It was just like incredible, crushing heartbreak that had me, like, at the lowest point of my life.

[Taj Easton]

Oh, no. I'm so sorry to hear this.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

It's brutal. It's brutal. But it led me somewhere that I'm very grateful to be now, which is at first I was like thinking that what had happened in the relationship was a lot of failures of communication. And so started looking a lot at effective communication in relationships. And it took me to this particular kind of school of thought or sort of field of study that's called nonviolent communication. I'm not sure if you've ever heard about it.

[Leo]

I feel like I've definitely heard about.

[Taj Easton]

Non violent ways of civic engagement.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

There you go. This is where the term comes from. It's where the term comes from.

[Leo]

Okay, great.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, sure.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And this is a lot of backstory. Only to say that one of the things that really came out of all this interest for me was like this theory or principle that at the heart of effective communication, conflict mediation and all these sort of high stakes dialogical settings all the way up to like hostage negotiation and civic engagement across the aisle, I think is a significant part of that for me. And you got it. The word comes from, you know, Martin Luther King and the. I think a lot of the intent of the creators of this sort of approach were very interested in how to have harmonious discourse, like on it large scale. I mean, it's been really helpful for me in interpersonal relationships on every level. But it's really the highest ambition, I think, is like, how can we talk to people that really cause us great harm or that we disagree with, like vehemently and maybe feel a lot of anger or hatred towards? How can we still communicate in a way that doesn't digress or devolve into conflict?

[Taj Easton]

Right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And my understanding of this sort of main thrust of this philosophy is that it's about empathy. It's about finding ways to use language, like very practical ways. You know, it's not sort of spiritually, like be empathetic, but how can we use language to build empathy which may lead us towards compassion more easily than if we're in habitual ways of speaking that often end up going a different route?

[Taj Easton]

Right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

So, yeah, that's why I have been sort of particularly passionate about using language to facilitate empathetic perspectives of other people. And like, it seems particularly important to me now given kind of the state of political discourse and cultural discourse.

[Taj Easton]

Right, yeah. It actually reminds me. Well, there's a couple things that it reminds me of because.

[Leo]

Are you familiar with the restorative justice?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, yeah.

[Taj Easton]

You know, just being able to communicate with somebody who's done you wrong, who's killed somebody in your family or brother, whoever.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes.

[Taj Easton]

And how a lot of that has to do with being able to hear from the other person.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And there being a process of either acceptance of the role that they've played in a tragedy and actually the other family or whoever, the other party being able to forgive. Right. And say, like, okay, maybe I see your past history. I see where you're coming from, or you're, you know, and that's unfortunate. And so let's find a way for you to pay your dues for whatever crime or whatever may have been committed.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And to grow together. Right. And, you know, it's been done in so many different ways, from tribunals, you know, after apartheid in South Africa to genocides, you know, there's a whole legacy of things. And so part of what you're talking about reminds me of that, you know, being able to use our language in a way that kind of mutually explains how both sides feel or feel that they have been wronged. I guess where the challenge, where it comes to, like, things like storytelling is a lot of the ways that we share the story is one way, right?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, yeah.

[Taj Easton]

100% right. You don't have the other person. Typically.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes.

[Taj Easton]

And who's the protagonist in the story or the other characters in the story.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

They're not there on stage sharing, quote, unquote, their version of the story.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Taj Easton]

But, yeah, I'd just, like, love to, like, hear your thoughts as it relates to this process. For sometimes what's considered one way communication.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

In a way, you have much more storytelling experience and skill than I do. And I mean, in all honesty, my reaction to this story was more about, like, reflecting in general on this sort of language. And I certainly have no prescriptions for storytelling or any thought that your story should be done any different way or anything like that. And you really nailed it. I mean, it's not a dialogue, it's not a conversation. It's one person's side. So this sort of trope of protagonist and antagonist or having a villain is, like, pretty deeply rooted in the practice of storytelling. And again, not saying that that was even how yours was framed, but it comes up for me in thinking about, like, what are the implications for storytelling if a person was wanting to move from condemnation to curiosity or wanting to humanize the other character.

[Taj Easton]

Right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

So, yeah, I got. I got. I have no real thoughts about, you know, what to do with it, but. But just grateful for the opportunity to be able to have a discussion about it. Because, you know, our podcast goes out to a lot of people. And I've been thinking more and more lately since the election especially, like, I think Risk is a platform that has sort of been characterized as exposing people to worldviews and perspectives that they maybe haven't seen before, like, encouraging tolerance and understanding of people that are different from the people you see on any given day. And so that, I think, is why, listening to this story, I was curious about remaining in dialogue with people that have or are actively doing us harm.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah. No, I think that in the context of. Of the election, in the context of the times that we're in, it's a changed world to a certain extent, where I think that a lot more of the violence, a lot more of the extremism that maybe was not necessarily seen in everyday life is kind of much more like, front and center.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And it's also, like, shown a lot more through our devices, through our social media, through the news, just through the things that people talk about and, you know, soccer moms on, you know, on the field. So I think that there's more of a need nowadays to both understand each other, but also to protect ourselves from things that legitimately might harm us.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes.

[Taj Easton]

And legitimately might make us insane. Because I think that one of the things that is not often talked about in terms of the repercussions around being around things that are just not healthy is the mental health of the people who are often the victims.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yes, totally.

[Leo]

So my whole approach when it comes.

[Taj Easton]

To building our sanity is like, understanding that, yes, I have empathy towards other beings who, for whatever reason, cause harm or try to put themselves or their culture or their race on a pedestal.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

But I'm not gonna consume my time or my energy letting that affect who I am as much as possible. It's like, okay, I've seen enough. I'm a black woman in America.

[Leo]

I've seen crazy.

[Taj Easton]

Much more than probably a lot of people are now starting to see now that things are just kind of coming out.

[Leo]

Like, I mean, to talk to so.

[Taj Easton]

Many people of color, we weren't surprised by just the whole. The whole chaotic situation that the United States is now seeing itself in.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, my God.

[Taj Easton]

It's not surprising to a lot of us. I think that it is a surprising to a good chunk of people who.

[Leo]

Are like, oh, well, this is what.

[Taj Easton]

Happens in this country or in this context. And it's like, yes, it does. And I think that people are just now starting to see a lot more.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. It's been happening.

[Taj Easton]

So, yeah, I think it's a matter of protecting ourselves, but also being able to say, like, this is, you know, not to dehumanize anybody, but some of the shit that they might be doing might be crazy.

[Leo]

Like, legitimately not sane in the membrane.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

You know, I remember just like for the longest time in my story thinking like, am I a bad person?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah, I remember you said that. You said it in the story.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah. I just didn't understand.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

And you know, in her mind, clearly I did something wrong. Right. Otherwise this whole case wouldn't have existed. But at the same time, if I could pull up the number of emails and the length of these emails and the letters I was sent to my landlord over something that was not this serious and the way that this woman was putting me on blast and saying that I was a nuisance to society, like it was, it was just so over the top that legitimately, if you're trying to tell that story, some of the words are just going to come to mind are just like, they're just crazy.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

This shit was crazy. Yeah. Holy. Yes, absolutely. I agree with what you said that I do not advocate for empathizing with the person when you're hurt or need for self preservation is so great that you just need to take care of yourself 100%. 100%. I think that is the priority. But yeah, I'm thinking about what you said earlier about just precision of language, kind of, you know, that like, oh, crazy's maybe not as precise a term. If what I'm actually trying to say is like, well, actually this person is sociopathic. They have severe PTSD and it seems like they're really angry. Like just that information there. It's like if your intent is just self preservation and like how to respond, that's useful information. You know, like if all I know is like, oh, they're crazy or they're evil, I'm missing the opportunity to like have information that could really help me to respond in a way that is suited to a situation or to help protect other people from this person. You know, sort of from a sheerly self interested perspective. I see this advantage in like the clarity that can come from having curiosity about someone that we might otherwise dub as evil or whatever it is.

[Taj Easton]

Oh, 100%.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

The feeling wheel. Have you heard of the feeling wheel?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

I think so. I've heard of a feelings wheel that we use in my domestic violence counseling job. But I don't know if we're talking about the same thing.

[Taj Easton]

It's probably the same thing or something related. You know, it's. It's multiple colors and say like yellow is words connected to senses of joy.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Okay. Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

On the outer layer it might say like happy or excited or thrilled.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And then if you could kind of go in more to the center of the circle, the words become a little bit more specific.

[Leo]

So instead of saying happy, say that.

[Taj Easton]

You were exuberant or say that you were thrilled.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And so some of the things that you're talking about kind of remind me.

[Leo]

Of, like, utilizing that process a bit.

[Taj Easton]

More to define the words.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, this is really at the heart of what I have been sort of thinking about and working on in terms of communicating. In the case of a conflict or a disagreement, that it seems like there's often a default of criticism, blame, or judgment of the other person. And that evokes defensiveness. And then communication breaks down, and you have people yelling at each other and calling each other evil or whatnot. But what's not being said, which to me is like, really the thing that matters to the person who's speaking is they feel a certain way, and they probably feel a certain way really strongly, you know?

[Leo]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

They feel hurt or they feel sad or scared or angry, and communicating that is probably more productive and less likely to devolve into defensiveness that comes with sort of labeling someone else.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Taj Easton]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And then I think that is sort of an invitation or a bridge for the other person to feel empathy. You know, like, if I tell you you're a so and so, you're a blank, defensiveness is going to come up. But if I say I'm sad or I'm really hurt, it's not guaranteed. But that is sort of an invitation for the other person to empathize with you or to humanize you. And I think if that's sort of the pattern in the dialogue, empathy will start to come much more easily than in the alternative.

[Taj Easton]

Right, right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

I get the sense that probably people that are hearing this right now are sort of like, maybe thinking that it's very naive or it's a permissive way of being, or it sort of devalues a person's own hurt or safety if they're doing this. You know, if they're taking the energy to empathize with someone that maybe is causing great, great harm to them. Yeah. It strikes me that, like, so much of the discourse I see is so unproductive with labeling and criticizing and blaming other people. And that empathy is not the same as agreement, you know, and empathy doesn't get in the way of condemning another person's behavior or, you know, being determined to stop the harm or anything. It's a means of preventing communication from breaking down to the degree that nothing can really be accomplished.

[Taj Easton]

Sure.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. I mean, I Think when it comes to trying to affect change in someone else's behavior, for instance, like I've seen blaming or criticizing or name calling the person not work 100% of the time. And I've also seen taking the time to listen and to humanize the other person working in what seems like extremely unlikely scenarios. You know the story of Daryl Davis?

[Taj Easton]

I don't know.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

He's a blues and R and B musician. I think he still is. But he became somewhat famous for engaging in conversations with members of the Ku Klux Klan. He's a black man.

[Taj Easton]

Yes.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And he would sit down with Klan members. He would sort of sneakily get meetings with them by calling on the phone and trying to do white voice. And then he would get a meeting and he would talk with people for a half an hour, an hour longer, I don't actually know how long, but sort of like involved conversations. And he would start by just listening, not expressing any of his own views.

[Taj Easton]

Right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And building this sort of culture in the conversation or this dynamic where it's like, okay, I listen to you respectively and like I empathize and validate, whatever your feelings. I'm not agreeing with them, but I'm listening.

[Leo]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And then it establishes this sort of reciprocity where then the other person will listen to you or is much more likely to. It's not a guarantee.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

But by taking this approach again and again, I don't know, I've heard claims like that he had gotten like really large numbers of people to withdraw from their membership in the Ku Klux Klan, that he has 25 robes of people that personally gave him their robes. And it is a sort of North Star or a compelling example to me of how this approach can be wildly effective. You know, it's not agreeing, it's not permissive, it's a means of engaging with people that is not going to devolve into like totally unhelpful dynamic. You know, I mean, I don't know that anybody has ever got somebody to do something like withdraw from the Ku Klux Klan by yelling at him or calling him a racist bigot or calling him a fascist or telling him they're evil. You know, like, it just doesn't seem to work.

[Taj Easton]

Right.

[Leo]

It also doesn't, you know, it takes.

[Taj Easton]

A very strong willed individual to be like, I'm going to spend my time and energy, oh, fucking talking to Ku Klux Klan members to see if they might be able to change their mind and perspective.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Fucking A. I totally agree. And I'm not Encouraging anyone to go have these conversations, if that's not their way of preserving their own sanity and well being.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

But my thought is that, like, if what I want is to affect change and if I have this capacity or I'm gonna be in dialogue, I'm gonna be in conversation with a person, might this approach work better than the alternative?

[Leo]

Oh, absolutely.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

If you're going to be in the conversation and in dialogue, then it's a prime opportunity. Because if you try and just match somebody's energy, if you just try and match their level of insanity, you're going to be doing it to yourself.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right? It's a toll. Yeah, yeah, it's a toll. And I mean, I'm feeling it on a personal level just hearing the way, you know, in general that people across the aisle from one another are talking to one another. And I'm scared. I mean, I'm legitimately scared. And I'm a white male, you know, a person of incredible privilege, but even I'm scared from, like, hearing how violent the language is.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's real. Yeah, it's real.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And you know, like I mentioned earlier, everybody is now starting to see it, white men included.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right, exactly. That's why I was asleep before.

[Leo]

You're like, oh, this has been happening all the time, but now it's just.

[Taj Easton]

Kind of showing its head in a really interesting way.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right?

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

It seems like it's devolving. It's the first time that I've felt like expressing this viewpoint that like, hey, can we try to be curious and empathize with one another and have conversations that are not just, you know, vitriolic? I feel like that's just an unpopular view. And I'm fairly confident that there will be people that are hearing this that are like, fuck that. Like, I am not going to try to. Right. I'm not going to. I'm not going to listen. And like, you're hurting the cause by even suggesting that these people deserve that or like, that that would be fair to give them that.

[Taj Easton]

No, I mean, it's a core of human beings. Even if you believe in conspiracy theories, you want to be heard. Nobody wants to just not have their thoughts or their views or their stories shared.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

That is totally it.

[Taj Easton]

It's the core of who we are. And you can. Don't get me wrong, there's going to be people who can, who are going to make change from those who are resisting, those who are in firearms, those who are silent protesters. You know, there's all different Types of ways. So, yeah, it may not be the way that somebody necessarily approaches conflict, but it absolutely is a way that can be effective if done properly and in the right context.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And I mean, I just, I think you named it so spot on, that people have this need to be heard. And I think, hopefully, I mean, in a hopeful sense, that people also have a sort of need for reciprocation and that, you know, if we are so upset at each other that we're both steaming, but I can find it to listen to you for a little while, then the chance of me being heard has just gone up so significantly, you know. So again, from kind of a self interested perspective, if it's like I'm tired of not being heard, maybe my route to getting that is actually by listening to this other person first. Even if I think that they are dangerous, even if I think that they are harmful, it's not agreement for me to listen to them. It's not endorsement.

[Taj Easton]

Right. Well, you know, in a certain way my case was like that. I had never been in front of a judge before or had to have somebody share their version of the story and just sit there and listen, not say anything, just listen. Just like sitting there listening to her claim, it was validating because the more that was that she was going into it in my particular case, the judge was like, there are so many holes.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

This doesn't add up.

[Taj Easton]

It doesn't add up.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

So there was this opportunity in the courtroom to hear her side, at least. I'm wondering, was it anything other than accusations and blaming and wrong making and a story about how she was victimized in this situation? I mean, did you in any way get insight into anything sort of like more personal about what was going on for her or where she was at?

[Leo]

No, no.

[Taj Easton]

And that's, I think by design.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

I mean, that's why. That's why it's court.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

So true.

[Taj Easton]

They don't get into, you know, your emotional state unless it's a big part of the conviction or, you know, the sentencing.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

They try and make things as very black and white and legal as possible.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah. And that's a lot about blame. Right. Who's to blame?

[Taj Easton]

Well, yeah, it's a lot of it. It's about facts.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And I think that that's the other challenging thing that comes down to where we're at today is like there are a set of facts.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And if somebody is not, they're saying that the facts are a lie or the facts are not. The facts.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

Then, you know, you don't really have, like, a basis of communication to build from.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Totally.

[Taj Easton]

You know.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Totally. People are getting different facts or they're perceiving them so wildly differently that there's kind of really hard to find common ground. Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

Sometimes if you can't agree even on. On facts.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

You know, I'm not talking about opinions.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

Not talking about, you know, theories.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

You know, this is a pencil and.

[Leo]

This is paper, and that's a.

[Taj Easton]

That's a fact.

[Leo]

You know, and so if.

[Taj Easton]

If you can't.

[Leo]

If you can't have a similar foundation.

[Taj Easton]

Of what the facts are, then things are really, really, really are hard to.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

That's really hard.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo]

So.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah. So in my case, it comes down to the facts. It comes down to the law. It doesn't really come down to the emotional place of the other person or. There's nothing like that because it's not the space for it, unfortunately.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah. Did you get any insight from the time in the courtroom with her or, like, have any wonderings about. Her mom's a lawyer, so she's. She can't be in that much financial hardship, right.

[Taj Easton]

No.

[Leo]

So, I mean, now that you ask.

[Taj Easton]

About it, there's a whole backstory. This woman was actually a friend of a relative. Her daughter. Her daughter was the one who was moving in.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

So someone in the family did know the mom, which was the initial contact when I was initially about to post the opportunity.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

And she did tell me that she had gone to her place and was shocked and confused because she went to the place and she lived in an apartment, and she tried to, like, open the door, for example, but there was, like, a huge couch kind of like behind the door, because everything in the apartment was. Was like, hoard. It's like she was hoarding stuff.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, my gosh.

[Taj Easton]

And apparently she had worked as a lawyer, but then got fired or terminated or left or something, and so was trying to do her own thing, but her own state of mind and physical space. There was a lot going on. She said it was very, very chaotic to even try and, like, walk around her place, that she didn't seem like the mom was in a good place at all with her own business and.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

You know, so there may be a lot that was going on with the mom in terms of maybe trying to find cases or create cases. I don't know.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

That strikes me as so symbolic that getting one peek behind this person's door there is not just something that looks troubling, but, like, an overwhelming density of things that. I mean, this person who is hurting people, this person who is acting wild and out of control. If I could get a peek behind all this blame and cursing and screaming and harm doing that they're up to. There's a lot there.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And it doesn't look good. It doesn't look easy.

[Taj Easton]

It doesn't look good at all. I'm sure there was a lot of stuff going on in their personal life, dealing with some type of hurt or massive change or. So there could be a whole lot going on. But I do remember when I asked my auntie, like, how do you.

[Leo]

How do you know this woman?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. What'd you do to me?

[Leo]

This woman is sending me some crazy emails.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And she mentioned, like, you know, something was off and they. They didn't, like, become good friends or tight friends or anything like that. But she did see that there was possibly something that she didn't really know about her that was going on that was not. Not right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. A whole bunch of shit behind that door.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah. And it might be telling.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Or it might not be.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

It might not be.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

But there's. For me, there's something just in the curiosity. Right. Even if momentarily, just placing curiosity around there. Like, man, this lady's doing that. Like, maybe she's really scared. Maybe she's really, really hurt. Maybe she's really, really angry. And maybe, you know, her apartment is crammed to the brim with old shit.

[Taj Easton]

And maybe she's making shit up to try and get work.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. Maybe she's trying to get work.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

When you saw her in court, did she seem very angry or kind of was reserved or cold or anything like that come across or.

[Taj Easton]

No. Didn't really get a good sense of her body language. I just know that we would, like, you know, see who was with whom. If she was her mom. If I was with somebody.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah.

[Taj Easton]

And then we would never be called up. So by the end of the day, you know, I would always leave quickly.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

Because it was always a waste of my goddamn time.

[Leo]

Time.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Understand that.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

In the emails, a lot of, like, anger was coming through. Or would you not even. Not even say that?

[Leo]

Oh, I mean, I was gonna pull up a sample of an email if you want me to share with you.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah, yeah. If it's easier. If it's not too much work, I.

[Taj Easton]

Think I have a folder because, like, when I created the case, I think that I had to. So give me a quick second.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Yeah. Take your time.

[Taj Easton]

My Gosh, where do I even start?

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Your eyes just went really wide like you couldn't believe what you were reading.

[Taj Easton]

Oh, gosh. Okay, yeah, I'll just.

[Leo]

I'll.

[Taj Easton]

I'll just read part of a message from her mom. Okay, Don, I am not going to play your games. You are a very dishonest person. We have proven this time and again.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

What?

[Taj Easton]

We did not have this conversation. In fact, when I asked you to confirm, you got the email telling me the amount you were expecting is X amount of dollars. You evaded the question. You are stalling and playing games. You don't want to do that with me.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, my God.

[Taj Easton]

You pay that amount or we will see you in court. Exclamation point.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, man.

[Leo]

Your ad indicates that utilities were included. It just.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

It's just. It is hard to meet that with Grace. Huh?

[Leo]

And then her. The woman herself, the subletter herself, followed.

[Taj Easton]

Up to her mom's email.

[Leo]

She says something about a revised sublet agreement. Lol.

[Taj Easton]

You really don't know how this works, do you? No, you don't. You're just an incredibly arrogant and manipulative and have been incredibly stupid mistake of.

[Leo]

Thinking we were the type you could.

[Taj Easton]

Manipulate and push around. This just in. You've absolutely no leverage to negotiate or renegotiate with me. None. We've been willing to settle for what's.

[Leo]

What's fair, given the circumstances.

[Taj Easton]

Blah, blah, blah. The previous contract that you breached, and from doing basic math, that is the.

[Leo]

Amount that I expect to see in a wire.

[Taj Easton]

X amount of dollars, period.

[Leo]

And the emails were just like, you.

[Taj Easton]

Know, and then there's the one after that that says third attempt. And.

[Leo]

And they're just, mind you, I was in Ghana working with orphans.

[Taj Easton]

I had no time to deal with DC email.

[Leo]

So I was just like, I'm not even going to.

[Taj Easton]

You know, I'll see you in court.

[Leo]

If you want to take me to court, take me to court.

[Taj Easton]

And that's exactly what happened. The judge was like, this makes absolutely no fucking sense, woman.

[Leo]

So that's why it's easy to call.

[Taj Easton]

Her crazy, but also understanding that, yes.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

There are something going on.

[Taj Easton]

There's something going on behind the scenes, and I'm so sorry that I cannot provide you with more services, but I'm not the one to be attacking. I'm not the one where your energy should be spent on.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right? And I mean, I just. I just wonder, like, what do they hope to accomplish? Like, all this stuff about what they want to have happen, what they thought was miscommunicator not in the agreement. But you are manipulative, you are dishonest. Like, how is that going to help? Damn.

[Leo]

When you have one side attacking you, you're like, you know, that's why I.

[Taj Easton]

Said I can only do so much.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Of course.

[Taj Easton]

And I'm only going to hear so much.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, yeah. I'm like one of the most defensive people I know where it's like, I think I can come with a lot of grace. But if someone says you are manipulative, you are untrustworthy, I just, it's just my biology, you know, my nervous system kicks on and I'm like, okay, defend or counterattack.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

And it is very hard to respond to that kind of pejorative name calling.

[Taj Easton]

That's like vile attacks.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

Mind you, I've met this woman for I think three days, right? So there was a couple of days that she was staying in the living room, which was also huge, by the way, and had private entrance. You don't have to go through it or anything to get to the bathroom or the kitchen.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

It sounds like an amazing apartment.

[Leo]

Well, it was a dope ass.

[Taj Easton]

That was the best apartment I ever had lived in. Like, I got a deal. So I was passing on the deal off to her.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

She got a deal.

[Taj Easton]

She got a great, great deal. And the thing is, like, I think that when people move to New York, they don't know.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

She didn't know.

[Taj Easton]

You know, maybe she didn't know. She didn't know.

[Leo]

But she also really did not do.

[Taj Easton]

Any type of research because this is, this is the bomb.

[Leo]

And I'm not like, this is like, you know, this is like 12 years later that this, that I'm talking about this apartment. I was just like, that shit was the best.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Maybe she just. Yeah, maybe she just didn't like New York. Maybe she filled out a place in New York. Maybe she was homesick. Was she overwhelmed moving to New York? Was she like, scared going through the life change?

[Taj Easton]

Like, she was very ambitious about trying to find a job in corporate New York City.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

So, you know, that ain't easy.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah. So, I mean, she had an internship at, you know, JP Morgan Chase, so.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Okay.

[Taj Easton]

You know, so she was, she was.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

I will say that sounds stressful as fuck. I would probably be lashing out if I was. If I was at J.P. morgan and Chase.

[Leo]

Yo. But she was like lashing out before.

[Taj Easton]

The internship even started, so.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Okay.

[Leo]

Because this is all happening like, as.

[Taj Easton]

Things were getting started for her in New York.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right.

[Taj Easton]

So, you know, I have no idea.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right. My other guess about what she might have been feeling is, like, if she treats people like this on the regular, she's probably feeling lonely.

[Taj Easton]

Yeah.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

I mean, that's not a way to make friends. Right. That's not a good idea.

[Leo]

Oh. One of the first people to be.

[Taj Easton]

Helping her out in the city, and this was the kind of.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Right, yeah.

[Leo]

So empathize with that.

[Taj Easton]

Empathize with it. But it was really aggravating at the same time.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Oh, of course.

[Taj Easton]

Too much mental space, which is why it became a story on Risk.

[Leo]

Right.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Well, I so appreciate it, Dawn. I so appreciate your taking the time to talk with me about it. I mean, it's a meaningful conversation to me, like, how to move the needle even slightly towards, like, just being able to have a conversation rather than yelling at one another, you know?

[Taj Easton]

Yeah, absolutely. 100%. 100%.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

Heck, yes. And I'm just glad for the opportunity to become slightly more your friend.

[Leo]

Yeah, same, same.

[Don Jewel Frazier]

If I may be so bold.

[Leo]

Of course. Of course.

[Kevin Allison]

And that is that. Thanks so much to Don Jewel Frazier and to our producer, Taj Easton. Look Don up at Don J. Fraser. And don't forget, her new podcast is coming soon@barbershop stories.com. folks, today's the day. Take a risk. Hey, folks, there's so much more of Risk in the holiday season. Risk is always publishing new episodes and new stories as well as holiday favorites. This holiday season, don't forget, click on Risk.