← The Baffling Behavior Show {Parenting after Trauma}
The Baffling Behavior Show {Parenting after Trauma}
Ep. 199: Scaffolding Relational Skills as Brain Skills with Eileen Devine
01:05:08
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- [00:01]
Robin Goble
I finally get to share with you something that I've been working on for a while. Making Sense of Baffling Behaviors is a free audio training for professionals who work with the families of kids with big baffling behaviors. This four part free training is delivered to you again for free right in your podcast app, the one that you're using right now to listen to the Baffling Behavior Show. If you work with high intensity families with a lot of dysregulation and baffling behaviors, you might occasionally, or yeah, maybe even a lot of the time, feel overwhelmed or even burned out. Making sense of those baffling behaviors, the kids, the parents, and yes, your own, is the first and most non negotiable step in decreasing burnout, being more effective at your job, and yes, even loving your work again. If you join this training, you'll also get access to a discussion forum that I'm holding over on Facebook and 2 live Q& A sessions with me. This is a pop up audio training, meaning it's time limited. It will start May 5, runs throughout the week and will be available to listen to you until May 12th. That's one week total. I mean, there's really no reason not to sign up. It's free, it's offered in a podcast app so you can listen whenever you want. There's no live commitment, just those bonus live Q&As. The link to register is down in the show notes robingobel.com bafflingbehaviors Y'all, this is one of my most favorite weeks of the year and I cannot wait to share it with you. Now let's get to that episode that you pressed. Play on.
- [01:49]
Eileen Devine
So when your kids behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes. Yeah, I know. Let's take a break from all the.
- [01:56]
Robin Goble
Bamboozle here on the Baffling Behavior Show. Hello friends, welcome or welcome back to the Baffling Behavior show or the podcast formerly known as Parenting After Trauma. I'm your host, Robin Goble, and today I'm bringing you a guest episode I couldn't be more thrilled about. In fact, at the very end of our conversation, my guest reminded me that she was my first guest on the Parenting After Trauma podcast. Way, way, way long time ago. I mean, almost three years ago now. It was early 2022. So I am so excited to reconnect you with or maybe introduce you to for the first time, my very dear friend Eileen Devine. I have known Eileen for, I don't know, we're going on five or Six years now and we were first introduced professionally. And over the years, that relationship has shifted a professional relationship to a personal relationship. Eileen has become a dear friend. I've had the wonderful opportunity to be invited into her home and meet her family. And let me just tell you, she is one of the good ones. Eileen is just remarkable. It is not very often I run across a colleague and a professional who has the same love and commitment for y'all as I do and who is out in the world doing really, really, really amazing work. Eileen's area of expertise is kids with brain based differences. I remember while I was doing the interview with her, I kept thinking, I want to make sure that everyone listening knows that Eileen also has special exper and kids with medical brain based differences. So, for example, kids with neuroimmune disorders, pans and pandas and Lyme. Eileen is an expert in understanding the needs of the relational needs, the behavioral support needs, the brain based differences for kids with those kinds of diagnoses. I know she also does work with families of kids with epilepsy. So I really just wanted to highlight that Eileen is doing amazing work with families that not a lot of other professionals are out there committed to. Eileen and I have complimentary work in so many ways and we talk about that, but we also have some pretty unique differences. Eileen's new podcast, Brain First Parenting, launched yesterday. So on the airing of this episode, Tuesday, November 12th, her new podcast launched yesterday. And I am seriously just thrilled that there is another resource for families who are supporting kids with brain based differences and behavioral symptoms. Y'all are going to adore Eileen. So without any further ado, I am so happy to introduce you to my dear friend and colleague, Eileen Devine. Hey, Eileen, thank you so much for joining me here today.
- [05:38]
Eileen Devine
Of course. I'm so happy to be here.
- [05:40]
Robin Goble
This is sort of normal for us. We just get on Zoom and we talk and connect.
- [05:45]
Eileen Devine
I know I'm going to have to remember we're recording.
- [05:50]
Robin Goble
Exactly. We can always edit things out if we need to. Well, on the off chance anybody listening is meeting you for the first time, tell everybody listening just a little bit about yourself and the work that you're doing.
- [06:07]
Eileen Devine
Yeah. So I am a licensed clinical social worker. I live in Portland, Oregon and I work with parents and only parents. I work with parents who have kids with brain based differences and really challenging behavioral symptoms. All the diagnoses that their kids have point back to the brain. Sometimes they come to me knowing that and other times they don't know that. They just know that their child is really tricky, really exhausting, really challenging, and they have tried everything that they thought they knew to do, and it typically has made things worse. So I help them understand their child's unique brain so that then eventually, over time, that leads to less challenging behaviors. The other piece that is a big part of my story is that I'm also a parent, and my two kids are teenagers. Connell, 17. He's what you'd consider neurotypical. My daughter Maya is almost 16. They're 15 months apart, and she has a diagnosis of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. And so about a dozen years ago, I found myself in a very similar position to most of the parents that I work with, going, what is going on? And what can I do here to make things better? So that's a longer story. The short version is that it led me to change the focus of my clinical work, because once I found information that I was missing and it was so transformative to our family's life, I wanted to be able to support parents in a similar position so they didn't have to look so hard and to suffer unnecessarily just because they were missing information. So that, in a nutshell, who I am and what I do.
- [08:12]
Robin Goble
And you. And I had the great privilege of being introduced by our mutual friend Kendra.
- [08:18]
Eileen Devine
Yes. Shout out to Kendra.
- [08:20]
Robin Goble
Yes. I'm sure she's listening. I'm positive she will listen. And I do just want to maybe speak to that, just really briefly, that it's been, you know, just like the families that we serve. This can be super lonely work. And a lot of our colleagues don't really understand what we're doing or why we're doing, why we're doing it. And I know we can often be the place where people are sending families, where they're like, I don't know what to do. Go see Robin, go see Eileen. And to know some folks in the field who are so committed to doing this work and doing good work and work that we can trust. I know you and I just trust each other so much, where it's like, go listen to Eileen or go listen to Robin. And so I just want to say I'm so grateful for that. Like, I'm just so grateful we. That Kendra introduced us all those years ago, but also that, you know, our professional relationship has really kind of moved into a personal relationship. And super grateful for your friendship, too.
- [09:37]
Eileen Devine
So thank you for saying that. I feel exactly the same. It's been a really special friendship to me, and I also am grateful for how much You've taught me. I think you and I have both heard from parents about how complimentary our work is. And there's definitely a lot of what you talk about that complements what I talk about. And I've appreciated learning that piece so that I can then share it with families and refer them back to you so that they can have this fuller picture of what's happening with their child.
- [10:09]
Robin Goble
So 100% same to you too. That it is. I do think it's remarkable that we both have businesses that pay our bills and support our families and have absolutely zero sense of anything but support for one another.
- [10:29]
Eileen Devine
Absolutely.
- [10:30]
Robin Goble
I just, you know, what you offer families, what I offer families is just. I'm just so grateful. We're both.
- [10:37]
Eileen Devine
Yeah, we're both. I'm grateful and I'm relieved to have you do it.
- [10:41]
Robin Goble
Exactly. It's so important to have like a shared part. It feels like almost like a little partner. Almost like you do your part, I do my part. We do together. It's lovely. So thank you. Let's look at that a little bit because we do do a similar work yet there are some pretty distinct differences that I think really lend itself to how complimentary our work is. So would you speak on that for just a moment? How does it seem the same? Similar. How does it seem different?
- [11:18]
Eileen Devine
Yeah. So from my perspective, we both talk about kids and their unique neurobiology and how that matters in terms of understanding their behaviors, their experience of the world. From my perspective, you focus on the nervous system and have so much valuable information to share about the nervous system specifically. And I tend to focus more on the brain and cognitive skills and brain function. So anyone who dives into both of those deeply starts to see really quickly that there is a ton of overlap and you can't really separate the two. But I do think that it's helpful for parents to separate the two and talk about them separately. And then they can start to make their own connections in their own mind about their unique child. So I don't know. Is that how you would see? How you would see the differences?
- [12:16]
Robin Goble
Yeah, I guess 100% in that. Although I think we both do exactly what I'm about to say, I think there can almost be this perception or this experience that I do some more work in like the relational realm and you do some more work in the cognitive realm. While the reality is, is they're completely overlapped. It's just that some of our kids behaviors or skills or what we might call challenges or deficits, I don't Tend to look at it through that lens. But other people do, you know, can use that language. They both involve both. Right. That even the kinds of behaviors we're talking about that seem relational are based in the brain.
- [13:04]
Eileen Devine
That's right. They're skills, just like the other skills. That's where I see a lot of the parents that I work with. I mean, that being another similarity that you and I both spend a lot of our time and energy supporting parents of these kids. But when I'm teaching parents about the brain and what our brain does for us every day and how it's always connected to behaviors most of them understand or maybe even already knew. Oh, yeah. The brain does things like language and communication, executive functioning, learning and memory processing pace. They may not know what it looks like for their child to struggle in those skills. And so that's then the next step. But they get that it's like, oh, yeah, I know that. That's what my brain does for me. It's when we get to those other skills, the relational cognitive skills, that people. It's almost like this switch, like, I was with you up until this point.
- [13:56]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [13:57]
Eileen Devine
But these skills, well, they don't even see them as skills.
- [13:59]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [14:00]
Eileen Devine
They see them as part of their child's character. All of the sudden, it switches to, no, no, no, no, no. This is something they're doing on purpose. To me, it's not about skills anymore. And I get that because the behaviors that go with those skills that are reflection of those lagging skills feel so personal 100%. They're really, really hard to be in relationship with someone who lags behind in those skills. So I totally get it. But that is oftentimes where the steep learning curve is for a lot of the parents that I work with.
- [14:34]
Robin Goble
Let's start with something that feels really clear, is skill based. And kind of deconstruct it for how that challenge in a child's world is so clearly skill based. And then maybe let's shift to something that does feel like we would describe as more relational and look at how we would apply, like, the exact same lens to that skill. How does that sound?
- [15:03]
Eileen Devine
Yeah, that sounds great.
- [15:04]
Robin Goble
Okay. Does this a cognitive skill come to mind for you? Like, what's the common thing? Oh, yeah, let's go. Tell me what comes to mind.
- [15:11]
Eileen Devine
I talk about them quite a lot. Yeah. So a really common lagging cognitive skill is processing pace.
- [15:18]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [15:19]
Eileen Devine
The way that a child processes, especially auditory language, basically. And you know, one of my mentors, Diane Malvin, she always talks about these kids as a 10 second child in a 1 second world and parents are like, oh, that makes sense. I can see it. I now can think of instances in my life with my child where that was showing up. I didn't know it was that, but now I do. And so I'm going to shift my lens and I see it as slower processing. So what is the accommodation? Oh, I need to give them more time.
- [15:53]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [15:53]
Eileen Devine
Or I need to be able to check for understanding or I need to be able to reteach knowing that they might not get it the first time. I'm not saying that even that cognitive skill, the parent then like easily goes into the accommodations, but there isn't. There isn't personal kind of, you know, hurt and relationship pieces associated with that. Essentially another one is learning and memory. So a child being able to do one step at a time. So for example, my daughter, almost 16, if I give her one step at a time for the morning routine, for example, she's great. She does it, she wants to do well, she wants to get ready on time. She really doesn't want to be late for school. But if I give her three steps at a time, she'll do the first step and then she's kind of off on her own doing whatever caught her attention in that moment. Right. She's easily distracted. That is another one that parents say, okay, I get it. Learning in memory or poor memory, I'm going to give them one step at a time. That's the accommodation. And that isn't a difficult shift for them to make. Those would be just a few examples of cognitive skills that I think parents get that shift. Seeing them through this brain first lens is pretty easy for them once they're practiced at it.
- [17:10]
Robin Goble
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also just for everybody listening, when we say easy, we don't mean like, oh yeah. And instantly everything changes. And now you have infinite amount, infinite amounts of patience. But there is a felt difference when you have this felt sense that somebody's struggling not on purpose, but because they need more support or they need scaffolding for it and they're doing the very best that they can. Like that seems to be this piece that gets kind of easily moved into it. Right. They're doing the very best they can. They just need some more support or some more accommodations versus some of these other behavioral challenges that, you know, it can. We can really be pausing and asking ourselves, like, really, are they doing the best they can?
- [18:01]
Eileen Devine
That's right. That's right.
- [18:03]
Robin Goble
Yeah. Where do you see a difference like, does a behavior come to mind for you that you notice starts to feel a little more tricky, for sure. For families to see through that lens.
- [18:15]
Eileen Devine
Yeah, yeah. For me, I think of these cognitive skills sort of in big buckets and the three buckets, and then I can talk about maybe one or two specific skills. The three buckets are social and emotional development. So does your child behave in the way that society expects a child of their age to behave? And so I hear parents saying things like, you need to act your age. You're being such a baby. There's some embarrassment sometimes, some shame on how immaturely their child is acting. Right. That's the first big bucket. The second bucket is emotional regulation, which I think, for me, this is where it's the most resonant with the nervous system, the window of tolerance. How well can they manage frustration? It's where parents start to really put those pieces together. Emotional regulation. The third bucket, which I do think is probably just from my working with parents and my conversations, observations with them. The most difficult is cognitive rigidity. Being able to be flexible in the way that you think about other people, situations in the world. So being able to go with the flow, being able to put somebody else's needs above before your own, even momentarily. Right. Being able to adjust to a plan that can no longer happen because something happened out of everyone's control, like the weather. There was a winter storm that came in, so we can't go to the place we were excited to go to. And all the other kids are disappointed and they're kind of managing their disappointment, emotionally regulating, that sort of thing. The other child, who is very cognitively rigid, cannot shift, they cannot adjust. But it also dives into things like being able to see other people's perspectives and to know that somebody else actually has a different perspective than yours. Right. Understanding that your words and your actions impact others outside of yourself. Right. So I have a lot of parents who have said to me over the years, my child's not capable of empathy. And it's this really terrible thought to have to have as a parent. Really scary, too. But if we take a step back and we say, well, what cognitive skills are involved in being able to be empathetic? It is perspective taking. It is being able to be flexible in the way you think about things. Right. Being able to be more cognitively flexible. Right. The other piece under cognitive flexibility that I think gets really, really difficult for parents is being very black and white, not seeing any gray in the world. Right. And also having these generalizations that are Highly personalized and generalized. Like, everybody's out to get me. I'm always in trouble. Bad things always happen to me. Some parents talk about it as self sabotage, right? Like nothing good can ever go happen for them. They won't allow it. Yeah, right. So all of that feels really hard, understandably, because it is getting in the way of being in connection with another person. It's really hard for the parent to continuously reach for connection when their child's behaving in a way that is driving disconnection. Right. But when we can take a step back and look at the skills involved, it depersonalizes. It also gives another focus instead of just trying to make them be a better friend. You desperately want friends. Why are you ruining every friendship you have? It's like, well, what skill is getting in the way of them having that friend? Right? Of course they want to have friends. What are the skills getting in their way? And let's focus our energy there on building those skills versus just putting all of our energy and attention on the behavior.
- [22:13]
Robin Goble
Just a real quick interruption. If you're loving the podcast, you should go right now to my website. Check out all my free resources. There's webinars, downloadable ebooks, and a huge amount of infographic cheat sheets on so many different topics. Felt safety and boundaries, how to handle lying. What to do if you have a child who seems always dysregulated. How to not flip your lid when your kid is flipping theirs. Steps you can take when your nervous system is fried. What CO regulation really looks like. And y'all, that's not even all. There's more. And my team and I add at this point about one new free resource a month. So you're going to want to check in regularly, see all those free resources, and download exactly what you want@robingobel.com freeresources let's go back to the show. So many of the clients that you and I both have have, in addition to some of the background that you're describing, also have attachment trauma. So this not all, of course, but some. And so this additional layer comes in of the attachment piece and some of the disorganized attachment piece that that brain development and that nervous system development can be what's driving some pretty confusing relational skills. And it makes a lot of sense to me that because of the complexity of what it feels like to be in relationship with a kid who's got such challenging relationship ways of being, how easy it is to get to lose sight of the fact that there's still a Brain based reason why this child may be doing exactly what the parent is saying. Like it is very. When parents tell me like their kids are manipulative or they're setting me up or nothing I do could ever be good enough or you know, these things that can, they're, they're very, very controlling. I say to them, well, yeah, like I believe, I totally believe you. You know, like I'm not interested in telling a parent, well, no, they're not being manipulative. What they're really being is like, no, no, no, they actually are being manipulative. But let's look at why.
- [25:04]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [25:05]
Robin Goble
And as we break down the skills that are needed, like when I think about what do we need to not be manipulative? Well, we need some trust that if we just ask for what we want, people will help us.
- [25:20]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [25:20]
Robin Goble
Right. We need frustration tolerance so that if we don't get what we want, we can tolerate it instead of trying to like force or connive people into doing what we want.
- [25:33]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [25:34]
Robin Goble
But those are still skills that can still be scaffolded.
- [25:38]
Eileen Devine
That's right, yes. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you mentioned the parent experience and how hard it is. I think the parents that you and I work, rarely is their experience acknowledged. Yes. Of the full intensity that it is. I mean, you and I have the privilege of sitting with them and hearing their stories. But they've been discounted so many times in the search for answers. Right. And what I've seen happens over time then understandably, no fault of their own is they are increasingly burnt out. Their nervous system becomes more fragile, they become more hopeless because they don't have this information. They don't know what's going to help their child. They get more and more entrenched in this. My kid's just a bad kid. That's the messages they're getting from everybody else. Right. And so taking that step back that we're talking about, that's why it feels so hard sometimes, is that there's a lot of work that has to be done. In terms of their own, I don't want to say self care because that then we get into popular culture. Self care, that's not what we're talking about. But resilience, building nervous system stability so that they can do exactly what we're talking about because it is hard work.
- [26:59]
Robin Goble
Yes. And then also kind of move into some of the same skills we're talking about for their kids. Right. Some emotional regulation and some cognitive flexibility to be Able to see, you know, this behavior through a different lens than the way they were initially seeing the behavior. And again, that takes some mental flexibility. And not only is that a cognitive skill, but it also has to do with felt safety and regulation. Because the more safe we feel, the more regulated we are, the more we're going to have some ability to have some mental flexibility.
- [27:38]
Eileen Devine
That's right. And also highlighting, like for the parents listening, that when I talk about accommodating your child's lagging skill, the skill that they still need some development in that they're still not where you would expect them to be at their age. Everything we've been talking about so far, the accommodations, many of them are internal shifts within us as parents.
- [28:00]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [28:00]
Eileen Devine
So they can be external, more external and concrete. Like giving more time, accepting the need to reteach, giving one step instead of three, for example. But there is a lot of internal shifts that happen. Not meeting your child's rigidity with your own rigidity.
- [28:15]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [28:16]
Eileen Devine
Doing your work to remain flexible, which is really, really difficult in the moment. Adjusting expectations that you have held on to so tightly for so long because it's what you thought it meant to be a really good parent. And now you're seeing that, oh, maybe my child who's 12, they're actually much more like a 6 year old in this particular area in this skill set. So I need to adjust my expectations of them drastically. And that takes a lot of work easing into the acceptance of that. But that is a beautiful and generous accommodation. That's why we work with parents, because so much of this is internal shifts. But you need support in being able to do that. It's hard work.
- [29:03]
Robin Goble
One of the things that's arising for me as you're talking is the parent who comes to me, and I'm sure this happens to you too, who says, but why is my kid like this? Right. So if we can have a diagnosis like FASD or we've had a neuropsychological report that shows us, you know, processing differences, things like that, that it can feel a little easier to say, oh, this is a very clear brain based difference. Let's make some accommodations. My child's not being defiant. They need, you know, directions given in a different kind of way. They need more time, they need, you know, whatever the accommodation is.
- [29:53]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [29:54]
Robin Goble
And I'm a big believer, like even if we don't know what's underneath, what's driving our kids behavior, our kids are showing us exactly what the problem is by what their behavior is. And so I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit about, you know, let's say we have a kid who is, is struggling with multi step instructions or seems to need more time, but we don't have a diagnosis, we don't have any reason to know or believe that these things are going on. So how can, how can we help those parents see that? Well, even if we don't have a diagnosis, this is still all about the brain.
- [30:34]
Eileen Devine
It totally is. It always comes back to the brain. Even if you have, even if you have a diagnosis and you thought that was going to give you all the answers and then you get it and you read all the strategies that you do ideally for that diagnosis and things don't get better like you thought they would because it's not maybe specific to your unique child. So the same idea applies, it all points back to the brain. That's the organizing principle for all of this. And what does that mean for your unique child? So in the day to day relationship with your child, I actually think diagnosis isn't as important as it is for other things like medication, benefits, that sort of thing. But to answer your question, if there isn't a diagnosis and the parent is saying, man, I've really tried everything but my child's just super challenging like they just are. And I don't know what to do about can feel like an even more of a leap of faith 100% to assume that it's brain when you get a diagnosis, it's almost like you're given at least a little bit of permission to consider something different. I'm not saying the shift is then easy, but at least you have that to feel a bit more confidence in taking the leap. Right? But if you have a child who's challenging and you don't know why, nobody can tell you why. What I say to the parent is you may never know why. And I understand how hard that is. But at the end of the day, if everything you've tried so far has not worked, I wonder if we can give this a shot. I wonder what it would be like for you to take a step back from trying to control and use your power, all of those very behavioral lens, traditional parenting techniques and join me on this other path and see what happens. Right. So sometimes it literally is for we, I'll be talking with a parent, I'll say for the next week, whenever you're met with a challenging behavior, if you can assume that it has something to do with their brain and it is a symptom of Something else and see what happens. How does that feel inside of you? How does. Then what does it cause you to do next? That's maybe different than when you assumed the opposite. And let's just see what happens. Right. You will not lose your parental authority. You will not end up in a worse place than you are right now. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I think that is the hard truth is it does feel like a leap of faith. It's not what society is encouraging parents to do. It's society is so deeply entrenched in a behavioral lens that it will feel like a leap of faith. It's new.
- [33:09]
Robin Goble
We have to really, I think, lean into. You know, what I first heard from, like, how Ross Green put it so succinctly. Right. Kids do well when they can.
- [33:19]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [33:20]
Robin Goble
And then when I dove further and further into the neuroscience, what struck me was like, okay, so when people are regulated and when they're connected to themselves and other people and they're experiencing felt safety, like their behaviors aren't making us mad.
- [33:36]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [33:37]
Robin Goble
And so if we can. But that in and of itself is like a wild act of almost like resistance against humanity. Right. Because that's not what we've been taught to think about humans.
- [33:53]
Eileen Devine
Yes, it isn't. And you know, the other thing that I encourage parents to do when they do take that leap of faith and they begin to look through this lens that you and I are talking about, and then they come back and they say, well, I noticed this. They notice what you and I are talking about. They can see that then in relationship and behavior. As I say, let's collect the evidence, because then that helps you understand, like, okay, no, this is the truth. This is science. This is what happens. Right? And then the really beautiful thing is that if you can stay on that path and you continue to collect the evidence, you will see it like night and day comparison. I mean, I know I have examples from my own parenting where school, for example, having my daughter in a wonderful, loving community where she is understood, she feels safe, she's accepted, she's celebrated like she is this calm, regulated, joyful child literally all the time, except for, you know, what you would expect from a typical child. We've had instances where she has spent time, extended time in environments that were exactly the opposite. And we have had the opposite experience of her during that time. Luckily, that was far into this journey. And I was able to say, oh, this has nothing to do with her. I was so clear on that. And having that confidence allowed me to then advocate for her and step into that situation in a way I don't know that I would have. If I didn't have this information, I would have been questioning that, well, is this intentional misbehavior? Does she hold some responsibility in this? Do I have the right to ask for this level of accommodations that I'm asking for? None of that was present, right? Because I had been collecting the evidence for years on what happens when you prioritize that and think about our kids from this perspective. Right?
- [35:53]
Robin Goble
Oh, that's so.
- [35:54]
Eileen Devine
It is that powerful.
- [36:00]
Robin Goble
Hey, friends. So just a really quick interruption. Make sure you know about the new Owl, Watchdog and Possum workbook for kids. The All About Me workbook is 24 pages, full color. It's created to help kids strengthen their owl brain and take care of and calm their watchdog and their possum. Your child can do the workbook alone or with you. And in fact, even if they aren't interested in the workbook, you could learn a ton about how to help their owl, Watchdog and possum just by reading and maybe even doing some of it yourself. The workbook's available to purchase, and you'll get it instantly as a digital Download over@robingobel.com store. It is that powerful. And that is so hard. Right? Like, I know it's hard for me in my own life, too, to, like, have this really core trust in the idea that when people have what they need, we're really not having problems beyond just, like, normal life kind of stuff. And so to anchor into that trust and that certainty when our kids are struggling so significantly that something's not right. And that is so hard because that is not the message that we're getting anywhere else. Right. Like, we're getting that it's our fault our parenting is wrong or that your kid just needs to figure it out. We're not the system. We're not. It's not our fault. We're not going to do anything to help you and your child are doing something wrong and need to change.
- [37:47]
Eileen Devine
That's right. I think the other piece that's really, really hard about that is that even when, for example, when I say that my daughter is doing really well and we have, like, more typical challenges, that doesn't mean I'm not doing anything right. The amount of support and accommodations and the intensity of that is huge. Right? And so to have the endurance to keep up the accommodations and to stay in this lens and stay there as often as possible, we're not Going to be there 100% of the time because we're human, but be there as much as possible. That is hard. That takes work. That's why you need community. That's why you need support, because the endurance is. The endurance that it takes is no joke. Again, highlighting what your comment of it is hard, and these are all the layers of why it is you're saying.
- [38:47]
Robin Goble
Something that I think is super important, which is that most of the time, I'm sure it's not true all the time because you're as human as the rest of us. But most of the time, the way that your family approaches accommodations for your daughter isn't with the intention that if you give her these accommodations, she's going to change and one day not need those accommodations anymore. Right. There's this sense of we're giving her these accommodations because she's shown us that that's what she needs in order to feel her best in the world. And if maybe that helps something be different in the future, great. But we're not doing it so she will change in the future. We're doing it so she is successful now. Am I getting that right?
- [39:40]
Eileen Devine
Oh, you're right on. And I can remember, you know, I want folks to remember that I learned about this parenting a decade ago. So I've been in it for a long time, But I can still remember the period in my life where that hit me, like, oh, wow, no, her. Her disability is permanent and it's serious. And for the rest of my life, I will be deepening my understanding of her brain, what she needs at this stage of her life, because it does shift and change. And I will be developing new, more meaningful accommodations for her as she goes through life.
- [40:21]
Robin Goble
Yeah.
- [40:21]
Eileen Devine
Now I feel relief in that because I'm like, oh, I don't have to get it right today. Right. It's. There's not this pressure or this rush to get to this outcome that actually isn't there, if that makes sense.
- [40:34]
Robin Goble
Oh, that makes total sense.
- [40:36]
Eileen Devine
Yeah. The outcome I'm going for is, in this moment, does she have what she needs? But easing into the acceptance of that, it's not. That is not an easy process.
- [40:49]
Robin Goble
Always.
- [40:50]
Eileen Devine
Right. And it's not a one and done. Like, you come out of it and you get back into it. So I just want to recognize that. But the other piece that you bring up is what I know to be true about her, about kids like her, is that if she's not accommodated constantly and throughout the rest of her lifetime, she will be in this dysregulated state chronically, and her thinking brain will be offline chronically, and she won't grow in the skills that are getting in her way.
- [41:24]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [41:25]
Eileen Devine
Her capacity to grow in those skills that we desperately want to build because that's the source of the challenging behavior we will. I'm not saying they don't mature and grow at all, but the progress isn't what it could be.
- [41:37]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [41:37]
Eileen Devine
Right. So it's this. It's connected. It's all connected. Yep.
- [41:41]
Robin Goble
Yeah. I think that's a really important part to highlight here, that there is so much fear, and I have it, too, that if, you know, we don't get these skills taught, you know, xyz, terrible outcome is going to happen. And taking a breath and remembering that, well, we don't teach skills that are going to be useful or change your brain in a positive way, in any way. If we're doing it from a state of dysregulation, our own or theirs. And that is. I mean, there's just so many pressures and challenges and barriers that, you know, absolutely create a very real sense of urgency for us.
- [42:26]
Eileen Devine
Yes. All of those external pressures, but also our deeply held beliefs and values about what it means to be an independent adult, what it means to be, you know, live a meaningful life, what it means to take responsibility, to show respect, to quote, unquote, do well. Right. I remember when my daughter was really little, three or four, and a family member said to me, do you think she'll ever live on her own? And I was like, oh, how dare you ask me that? Yeah, I was. I just. I. Some part of me had this deeply held belief that that is what happens to your children. They move out, they launch, they live on their own, and if they don't, something is wrong with you.
- [43:15]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [43:16]
Eileen Devine
Parent. Right. I didn't realize that I had that deeply held belief. Right. Until someone said something that. That brought it alive.
- [43:25]
Robin Goble
Yeah.
- [43:26]
Eileen Devine
Right. And now, I mean, the reality is that we will probably have the company of my daughter in our home for a very long time. And so that. Easing into the acceptance of that, like, why do that? Why did I have such a reaction? Right. Why was that so important to me and so offensive that I'd be asked that? Right. I can look back at it now and say, well, that was kind of silly, but in the. In the moment, it was very real.
- [43:47]
Robin Goble
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, again, you touched on all the things and not the least of which is there's this, you know, unspoken and spoken way that parenting is supposed to go. And when you're a good parent it goes like this and it looks like this. And when you're, when it doesn't go like that, oh man, it's gotta be the parents fault. And there's hardly anything more, I think personal and connected to our core identity than our families. Right. Like our parenting identity. And it's just a lot to grapple with.
- [44:24]
Eileen Devine
Yeah. So I want to be clear for folks listening, you know, it obviously is part of being I think a good parent to have those values you want to instill in your kids. It just looks different.
- [44:37]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [44:37]
Eileen Devine
So like the responsibility value, like I want them to take responsibility. Yeah. And if we consider like again their social emotional age, what if they are a child of half their age in this area, what would responsibility look like for that child? And then again adjusting expectations to be more in alignment with that. Right. When you can start to settle into the acceptance of that and embrace that, there's so much relief, there is so much freedom that comes from that. Right. But, but getting to that point can be a process. Right. So if it feels hard for parents listening, you're exactly probably where you, where you should be in this point in the process. But it can get easier.
- [45:23]
Robin Goble
So let's go back to something we talked about quite a bit ago, which was some of these skills are so much easier to kind of deconstruct as due to a lagging cognitive skill where some of them seem so personal. And maybe let's look at an example of something like that, something that feels really personal. But actually if we kind of step back, use our own mental flexibility, see what's really happening inside the brain, we can see that even if it's a relational skill, it's still a lagging skill that we could build and scaffold or, and, or accommodate for.
- [46:01]
Eileen Devine
Let's go with a common scenario of sibling relationships. Or it could be up here. If your child doesn't have a sibling and let's say you have a 12 year old who will not compromise with their 8 year old siblings. They will not share what they have. They will not play the game ever that the eight year old wants to play with them. They have to have it their way. They cannot disengage in an argument and it seems as though they enjoy repetitive behaviors towards their siblings that they're told to stop. And when they're told to stop, they just get worse. They just do it more hypothetically been in this situation before or heard it.
- [46:58]
Robin Goble
Ever, never just making it up.
- [47:01]
Eileen Devine
People can relate. So when a Parent comes to me with that hypothetical situation, it's really, really easy to think my 12 year old is just selfish. He doesn't care about anyone else but himself. His 8 year old sibling is more generous, his 8 year old sibling is more flexible. And Even when the eight year old says nine times out of ten, we can do what you want, the 12 year old, he can't even do it once. Not even once. Right. Understandably, the parent is incredibly frustrated because it looks so willful, it feels so personal. And they see a younger child doing better in these skills, they don't think of them as skills, but doing better in this situation than their 12 year old. So all of that is swirling around.
- [48:00]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [48:01]
Eileen Devine
So if we are able to take a leap of faith and take a step back and assume that the 12 year old would be doing better in that relationship with their eight year old sibling if they could, if they had the skills, then what's getting in the way of them doing that? Right. So I picked this example specifically because a lot of those are cognitive flexibility things, right? Getting stuck in behavioral loops or verbal loops. Right. Literally being stuck and being unable to disengage without help, not being able to let go in an argument, they can not do it, they're too rigid. Not being able to go with the flow. Oh, you want to play that today? Okay, yeah, I guess we can do that. We played by game last time, right? Not being able to do that, not being able to perspective take like what they see, what they believe, what is their reality is all there is. And they're not refusing to shift. They don't have the skills yet to shift. So we again, we think about all of that. It is all cognitive flexibility skills. The other added layer of that that I'm always asking parents is, and what age does this remind you of, this type of rigidity, this type of behavior, what age does that remind you of? The reason for that is that gap is usually present, almost always present. And it can help us shift and soften and say, okay, what would I do with say a 4 year old who is rigid in the same ways? I'm not saying, oh, you're four, so do whatever you want. I'm saying, oh man, four is a really tough age because they lag behind in these skills. How do I support this 4 year old in growing these skills? Much of that can apply to a 12 year old, just adjusted for a 12 year old. Right? So once we've taken a step back and we understand the skill set that's involved and where that child is lagging behind. It makes so much more sense why they can't do better and what they need to be able to do better.
- [50:14]
Robin Goble
Well, let's go there next. So we deconstruct it. We see. I love the question, what age does this remind you of? Because I do think so often that gives us so many insights, including the fact that we don't just let four year olds do whatever they want. And that's such a fear that parents hold understandably, so that if we are understanding the behavior, we're just saying, well, free for all, I guess there's nothing we can do about it. And so I really thought about it, the way you just said it, this way of looking at it through the lens of a younger child, but then using that piece to remind ourselves like, oh no, we don't just let. In fact, we give younger kids more scaffolding, more structure, more boundaries.
- [51:05]
Eileen Devine
Yes, yes, exactly. And so I want to acknowledge, for the parent of the 12 year old who's listening, or 13 or 14 year old, whatever it may be, I know that you did not expect to be giving this level of scaffolding, this level of intentionality to this skill set. There's other things you thought you'd be focused on and all of the accommodations that take more of your time and energy. It can be a real bummer when you come to that realization. And also, I promise you, you will not feel like you're working harder. It feels that way in the beginning, right? You're on this learning curve, but you're already working so hard to just get your 8 year old and your 12 year old to get along.
- [51:52]
Robin Goble
Right?
- [51:53]
Eileen Devine
So these accommodations, the scaffolding, everything that you would do at the intensity you would do for a 4 year old, yes, it likely applies to your 12 year old and it may for some time, but I promise you, you won't be working harder. Things will feel better. Taking a step back the first thing to acknowledge is that in the moment when things have been escalated and your child has grown more and more and more rigid because they're getting more and more dysregulated, more frustrated, not to try to address all the things, then it's just a waste of your precious energy. If they have trouble being flexible, logical, reasonable at baseline because of those cognitive skills that are involved in that, I promise you it's not going to happen in that moment, no matter how much wisdom and logic you have to share with them. So taking a step back, taking a break, separating the two, getting them going with different Activities, whatever it might need to happen in order to just calm the chaos and the tension a bit. Right. And then at a moment, and I say a moment because it truly is something that you need to be looking for, it's not.
- [53:03]
Robin Goble
Oh.
- [53:04]
Eileen Devine
And then an hour later or the next day or whatever it might be, then you are looking for a moment where you can circle back with your 12 year old and have this conversation with them about what the perspective of their eight year old is, connecting the dots, how it must feel for the 8 year old when you say this or you do his game, he does your game nine times out of 10, he just wants it this one time. How might that feel to him? What does that sound like? The conversations, aversion of what we do with little kids.
- [53:34]
Robin Goble
Yeah.
- [53:35]
Eileen Devine
Right. It may mean that you need to have more supervision from onset with the 8 and the 12 year old so that when you start to see the rigidity, getting the best of your 12 year old, very small hints of that, then you intervene and you accommodate and you support from a place of empathy instead of waiting for the rigidity to build. Right. But that circling back piece, you've got to look for the opportunity and it's going to be dependent on your child and you, you don't go into it when you're still worked up. Nothing good will happen from that. But the main piece of that, and then I'll stop talking about it because we could talk for another hour about circling back in and of itself is the first step is most important and it's leading with empathy. And it's really beginning from the standpoint that you're communicating to your child. I know you would be doing better if you could and I understand that there's something else going on here. I know that you want to have a good relationship with your brother and I can see it's not going as well as you'd like. And I want to help you. I want to help you build those skills. You're not going to say that to them, but that's the mindset instead of what are you doing? You're selfish. Your brother always gives into you. Right. We've all been in that cycle before because we are all human.
- [54:48]
Robin Goble
Right. Of course.
- [54:49]
Eileen Devine
We all know where it leads.
- [54:50]
Robin Goble
Me too. Yep.
- [54:51]
Eileen Devine
It doesn't lead to anything, anything productive. So that is, in a brief nutshell, the steps. Yeah.
- [55:00]
Robin Goble
I think what I also want to take a moment to just highlight and point out here is I know so many, not all, but so many of my folks who listen have kids Again, who have histories of attachment trauma. And there's this reality to some of the relational behaviors, whether they feel like controlling, you know, refusing to let the other person take a turn, that are rooted possibly in some of those attachment skills or relational skills. And those are still lagging skills, Developing relational skills, developing attachment skills, feeling safe enough in relationship that you can have a relational experience of cooperation instead of control.
- [56:00]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [56:01]
Robin Goble
While they can feel so character driven.
- [56:05]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [56:06]
Robin Goble
Because they feel yucky. They just feel yucky. It feels yucky to be controlled. It feels yucky to watch your kid control their younger brother and in some ways even feel like they're delighting in it. Right. That even those skills. Right. Because I hear you saying so much that like this 12 year old really wants to be able to have a good relationship with their eight year old brother. And I know there's some folks listening who have the felt sense from their 12 year olds, the metaphorical 12 year olds is like, no, they don't.
- [56:36]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [56:38]
Robin Goble
No. And that makes sense. And I totally get that. And I know what that kid feels like to you. Like I know what that kid feels like. And we kind of come back to that leap of faith piece of, you know, really believing that kids do all when they can, like Ross Green says, or that when kids are regulated and when they're connected to others and to themselves, which means connection feels safe. And they're feeling safe. Right. That they have the kinds of behaviors that we would think and although we don't normally, or that we would want, and I know we don't normally think about those more attachment driven behaviors as things we can scaffold, we can, we can still break down. What is the lagging skill of a child who is being controlling and rigid because of attachment trauma? Well, the lagging skill is safety and connection, safety in relationship trust that they can have like a mutually cooperative relationship and they won't, you know, be totally disregarded or totally, you know, hurt. Right. So that trust, even, you know, all these things we could look at through the lens of lagging skill and again, we could talk for hours and hours and hours and break this all down. But I wanted to just kind of bring that back kind of altogether that even when it feels like, no, this isn't a lagging skill, this is my child's attachment trauma or their attachment disorder. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And we actually still could break all of that down into what's missing. And even if we can't fix still changes completely how we see and interpret what's happening.
- [58:35]
Eileen Devine
Yep. And Then what we do next.
- [58:37]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [58:38]
Eileen Devine
Yep. Yeah, that is, I mean that actually is a really full. Coming a full circle because we started talking out about, started talking about their unique neurobiology and the pieces that you and I tend to emphasis. More put more of an emphasis on. Right. And we just articulated that and the overlap is there. It all, it's all connected.
- [59:01]
Robin Goble
But that's a piece you've really helped me see is that these behaviors that feel again, feel so personal, feel so grounded in the relational piece or what I would say like maybe the, you know, a pocket of the disorganized attachment or, you know, there are still. We can still use the word skill.
- [59:23]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [59:24]
Robin Goble
To conceptualize what's happening. We just have to maybe shift how we think of the word skill. But being able to trust that a relationship can be safe, that it's okay to allow for some cooperation and not always be in control of a relationship, that. That's a skill. And having the regulatory circuits to be able to regulate through not always, you know, getting what you want, for example, still, that's still a skill and it's still about the brain.
- [59:57]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [59:57]
Robin Goble
As opposed to being a good or a bad human or a good or a bad kid or a good or a bad parent.
- [60:03]
Eileen Devine
That's right.
- [60:04]
Robin Goble
Yeah. Well, this has been wonderful. Perfectly delightful.
- [60:14]
Eileen Devine
I agree.
- [60:14]
Robin Goble
Always do it again. 100. Actually, as you were talking, when we hang up, when I press stop or whatever it is that I press to make this end, I have an idea of either a podcast I want you to come back for or a podcast I want you to do on your new podcast. So tell us about your new endeavor and how people can go and hear more about all the awesome ways that you're breaking down their kids behaviors.
- [60:49]
Eileen Devine
I have decided to follow in Robin's footsteps. A lot of encouragement and moral support. I've decided to start a brain first parenting podcast.
- [61:02]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [61:03]
Eileen Devine
And it, the first three episodes dropped on November 11th and so it is officially out into the world.
- [61:14]
Robin Goble
Yes.
- [61:14]
Eileen Devine
And it is for parents who have kids whose brains work differently and they tend to have some really challenging behavioral symptoms. And it really is for those parents what I hope it's going to do. My hope in doing it and the whole reason I did it is because I wanted to be able to provide an added layer of support for those parents. And I enjoy podcasts so much. It's so time efficient to be able to listen while I drive or walk or whatever it is. And so I thought, you know, that is what I need to do. So I'm super excited about it and I would love to have you as my first guest. So let's talk.
- [61:55]
Robin Goble
That would be so fun. That would be really fun. Because you. I'm not positive you might have been mine.
- [62:04]
Eileen Devine
I was.
- [62:05]
Robin Goble
You were my first.
- [62:06]
Eileen Devine
Yes.
- [62:06]
Robin Goble
Okay.
- [62:07]
Eileen Devine
I was. It was before it was your official podcast. It was when you were doing recordings, but it wasn't in podcast form yet. So. Happy. I know. Full circle again.
- [62:17]
Robin Goble
100%. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay, so Brain First Parenting, which is what your work is really known as, and that's the name of your podcast. We're going to, of course, be able to find it in any podcast app.
- [62:33]
Eileen Devine
That's right. Yes, absolutely. You can also find it on my website, eilendevine.com forward slash podcast. It's all there as well. So, yeah, I look forward to folks listening and letting me know how they like it and what topics would be helpful for them to hear more about.
- [62:55]
Robin Goble
Well, I am thrilled, thrilled, thrilled, thrilled. I mean, the amount of communication that I get from folks about what it means to have the format of a podcast specifically. Right. Just like you said, you like to listen to podcasts. I like to listen to them too, but to just hit play, listen to that person, I mean, I really start to feel like the people that I listen to regularly, they're like my friends. Like I know them.
- [63:20]
Eileen Devine
I know, me too.
- [63:20]
Robin Goble
Right.
- [63:21]
Eileen Devine
They don't know me, but I know them.
- [63:22]
Robin Goble
Exactly. And I know that the folks who listen to this podcast really regularly, you know, really feel a deep connection to me and that that helps them. Right. That that matters to them in the day to day moments with their kids or with their clients. I know a lot of professionals are listening to. And so the idea that more parents are going to get even more of this from you is just. I'm so. I'm just so grateful.
- [63:51]
Eileen Devine
Thank you. I appreciate your support and your encouragement along the way.
- [63:55]
Robin Goble
Yes. All right, everybody, I will make sure everything about how you can find more of Eileen is very easily to click through in the show notes. And Eileen and I. Sounds like we've got some more chatting to do about how we can do this again soon. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- [64:12]
Eileen Devine
Thank you for having me. As always.
- [64:15]
Robin Goble
I hope that you loved that episode of the Baffling Behavior show. If you did, and you're wondering, where can I go to learn more or get more support or maybe you're a professional and you want to be able to bring this work to your overwhelmed clients. I have got three places for you to go next. Number one, my USA Today best selling book, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. A year and a half after publication, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors continues to exceed our wildest dreams, breaking sales goals and getting feedback that it is changing people's lives. Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors is available in paperback, ebook and audiobook, which I read wherever you buy books Books online the second way to get more support is to come and join us over in the club. It's an online community of connection, co regulation and yes, even a little education. We have over 500 members and you'll gain support from the wisest, most compassionate, most in the trenches with you parents in the world. You'll be able to pick my brain, watch over a hundred different videos and Download the over 50 resources. Resources that are uniquely developed just for the club and just for you to bring owls, watchdogs and possums into your family. And if you're a professional like a therapist or a coach, a teacher, an educator, maybe an occupational therapist, a daycare owner, anyone who supports the parents of kids with big baffling behaviors, hop onto my waiting list for the 2026 cohort of being with. It'll be our fifth cohort of our year long immersion into the neurobiology of big baffling behaviors and the science of connection, safety and co regulation. You'll grow your capacity so that you can hang in the hardest places with families of kids with vulnerable nervous systems. And you'll finally get the professional support that you need and deserve to work with the families who keep being told by other professionals that they can't help them anymore. One of my goals is that families never hear that again. We'll be opening applications in the late spring or early summer and we'll be opening those applications only to folks who are on the waiting list. So be sure to add your name to the waiting list over@robingobel.com beingwith y'all. I'm so grateful to support you and be with you on this journey. Till next week.