Ep. 204: The Way of Play with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson

Summary

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The Baffling Behavior Show – Ep. 204: The Way of Play with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson

Host: Robyn Gobbel
Guest: Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Date: January 14, 2025

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Robyn Gobbel and renowned children's mental health expert Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. They discuss Dr. Bryson’s new book The Way of Play (co-authored with Georgie Wisen-Vincent), exploring play as an essential tool for parents, especially those raising children with trauma histories or vulnerable nervous systems. Together, they dig into how principles of interpersonal neurobiology (IPNB) and play therapy can be translated into everyday parenting to foster connection, regulation, skill-building, and resilience.

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Main Discussion Points

1. The Transformative Power of Interpersonal Neurobiology (IPNB)

• Professional & Personal Impact:
  Robyn and Dr. Bryson reflect on how discovering Dr. Dan Siegel's IPNB framework profoundly shaped their careers and parenting.
  • “Interpersonal neurobiology hasn’t really just informed my work… it has literally changed my life… Not an exaggeration to say it saved my life.” – Robyn (02:01)
• Making Science Accessible:
  Both speakers emphasize breaking down complex neuroscience into actionable, practical strategies for parents and professionals.
  • “My goal is to change how people see kids’ behaviors and how we respond to them, with the nervous system and safe, predictable, positive relationships in mind.” – Dr. Bryson (06:19)

2. Origins and Purpose of The Way of Play

• Why Write This Book?
  Dr. Bryson explains the motivation: bridging the gap so all caregivers—not just therapists—can use play as a relational and regulatory tool at home.
  • “Play is the way to build relationship with our children, to build their skills… It reduces risk factors. It allows them to process difficult things… and build the brain.” – Dr. Bryson (12:58)
  • “A lot of parents don’t actually know how to play… This book is really about how do you play? How do we take what we know from play therapy and make it everyday?” (13:25)
• Addressing a Resource Gap:
  Robyn highlights the scarcity of parent-friendly resources on therapeutic play:
  • “There are not enough play therapists… We have to break down these barriers and help adults develop these skills.” – Robyn (17:34)

3. The Seven Play Strategies

Robyn enumerates the book’s core strategies and they discuss several in detail:

1. Think Out Loud
2. Make Yourself a Mirror
3. Bring Emotions to Life
4. Dial Intensity Up or Down
5. Scaffold and Stretch
6. Narrate to Integrate
7. Set Playtime Parameters

4. Deep Dive into Key Strategies

Bring Emotions to Life

• Practical Example:
  Dr. Bryson describes introducing emotions to toy characters during play to expand children’s emotional vocabulary and regulation skills.
  • “I could also bring emotions to life in that moment and say, ‘Oh, but it’s so high. It’s so scary. I don’t know if I’ve ever done this before.’ I just introduce an emotion this character might feel in the situation…” (15:26)
  • This approach leads to rich skill-building and makes room for children to problem-solve, support, and express empathy in a natural context.
• Building Emotional Agility and Resilience:
  • “The most important social-emotional skills aren’t just emotional vocabulary but emotional agility… the ability to monitor and modify your state.” – Dr. Bryson (24:26)
  • Regulation is not just self-soothing but noticing and shifting states—skills built through playful, low-stakes practice.

Make Yourself a Mirror

• Attunement Through Mirroring:
  • Dr. Bryson recommends tuning into and reflecting children’s body language, facial expressions, and vocalizations (BFV), boosting connection and activating mirror neurons.
  • “You’re not copying them where you mimic every single thing… But when we use our body, face, and voice to reflect back…it is incredible in terms of attunement and our child feeling felt, known, seen.” (31:18)
• For All Ages and States:
  • Works for pretend play and also for chaotic, dysregulated kids who aren’t yet engaging in structured play.
  • “If they’re jumping, you jump too… blow bubbles when they blow bubbles. The possibilities are endless.” – Robyn (34:13)
• Normalizes Repair:
  When kids resist mirroring (“Don’t do that!”), it's an opportunity for repair, flexibility, and humor.
  • “You can be playful in those moments—throw in an accent or say, ‘Show me how. I want to play the way you want.’” – Dr. Bryson (36:33)

5. Play as Protective and Attainable – Even for Burned-Out Parents

• Small, Manageable Doses:
  Both stress that even a few minutes—using simple strategies—can be effective, especially important for overwhelmed parents.
  • “It’s just broken down into such bite-sized, little doses…with so much structure. When people are stressed out…just tell them what to do.” – Robyn (37:16)
• Play Helps Parents Too:
  • “When we are really stressed out and we feel we can’t access play and playfulness, that means we need it more than anything.” – Dr. Bryson (40:29)
  • Play can be as simple as joining your child and staying present, and it regulates adults as well.
• Play as Stress Relief & Cooperation Booster:
  Play signals safety, making it easier for children to cooperate and reducing conflict.
  • “It’s so much more effective than demand… [And] protects our own nervous system so much more.” (43:11)

6. Broader Effects of Play

• Window into the Child’s World:
  • Play reveals a child’s inner world, giving parents insight into emotions, needs, and experiences that may not be verbally expressed.
  • “When kids won’t say it, they often play it.” – Dr. Bryson (46:33)
• Opportunities for Practice:
  • Through play, children practice compromise, frustration tolerance, social skills, and regulation in ways that generalize to other settings.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Making Science Practical:
  “I was seeking to understand mechanism… not just what to do, but why.” – Dr. Bryson (04:30)
• On Play as the Centerpiece:
  “It’s crazy that we’re at a time in history where we have to defend the right of children to play.” – Dr. Bryson (13:13)
• For Play-Reluctant or Burned-Out Adults:
  “If you only read the captions and the illustrations and the pull quotes… you’ll have the actionable stuff you need.” (40:29)
• On Mirroring:
  “It’s fundamentally about all about attachment… If you don’t feel playful, this is a great one—no big cognitive load.” – Dr. Bryson (35:06)
• On Curiosity as a Connector:
  “Can we open up something that brings in curiosity? Because curiosity and connection mode go together.” – Robyn (46:03)
• On Not Over-Interpreting Play:
  “Don’t read into it too much… Sometimes kids just play out themes. But it is a great way to join with your child in what they’re working through.” – Dr. Bryson (46:33)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:47 – Robyn’s intro: IPNB, Dr. Siegel, and Tina Payne Bryson’s influence
• 04:30 – Dr. Bryson’s journey to IPNB and making research accessible
• 11:31 – Why “The Way of Play” was written; what sets it apart
• 15:26 – “Bring Emotions to Life” play example and strategy details
• 19:01 – Gaps in parent play resources and the need for the book
• 24:26 – Emotional agility, co-regulation, and the science of regulation
• 31:18 – Explaining “Make Yourself a Mirror” for body, face, and voice
• 37:16 – Addressing parental burnout: Play as accessible, bite-size, and healing
• 40:29 – Play as stress relief for parents and more effective than demand
• 46:33 – Play as a window to the child’s world and real-life skill practice
• 50:43 – Book launch information and pre-order bonuses

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Resources Mentioned

• The Way of Play by Tina Payne Bryson & Georgie Wisen-Vincent (release: Jan 21, 2025)
• Additional parent resources: robingobbel.com/freeresources
• Pre-order bonuses for The Way of Play: live Q&A event, PDFs on playroom setup, downloadable “refrigerator sheet”
• Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen (book recommendation)
• Training and community resources: The Club, Baffling Behavior Training Institute (robingobbel.com/immersion)

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Tone & Closing Thoughts

The episode is warm, personal, supportive, and practical—peppered with humor, validation for struggling parents, and clear, actionable ideas. Dr. Bryson and Robyn repeatedly stress that play is not about perfection, but about small, meaningful connections that build resilience for both kids and adults.

“Play is the way. We need it as much as our kids do. And it’s possible—even if your nervous system is fried.” – Dr. Bryson (40:29)

Listeners leave with encouragement, concrete tools, and a sense of community on the journey of parenting after trauma.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, y'. All. So we'll get to the episode that you pressed. Play on in just a second. But I wanted to make sure that you know that the club will be opening for new members next Tuesday. The club is our virtual community of parents of kids with big baffling behaviors, and you can read all about it [e-mail] TheClub if you already get emails from me, you'll get a message next week reminding you that the club is open. Otherwise, set yourself a calendar reminder to go to robngobel.com the the club next Tuesday. All righty, let's get to that show you're waiting for.

[B]

So when your kids behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes. Yeah, I know. Let's take a break from all the bamboozle.

[A]

You're on the baffling in behavior. No Welcome, y'. All. Or welcome back to the Baffling Behavior show, the podcast formally known as Parenting After Trauma. I'm your host, Robin Goble, and today I'm here with a very special guest, Tina Payne Bryson. Before we dive in, we're gonna chat and connect, and I just can't wait to have this conversation with Tina all about her new book to the Way of Play, which is coming out when this airs coming out next week. There are just a couple things I really wanted to share with everybody listening. And also I wanted to share them with Tina listening, y'. All, if you've read my you've listened to the Baffling Behavior show for any length of time. You know that interpersonal neurobiology hasn't really just informed my work and the way that I support y' all and your kids, but it has absolutely, literally changed my life. I remember being first introduced to Dr. Dan Siegel's work in the field of IPNB in 2011. Took me a little bit to realize that this is the same Dan Siegel who wrote Parenting from the Inside out, which I had read as a new mom. Like, not professionally at all. I'd read it as a new mom back in 2006 and come to find out Dr. Siegel didn't just write a parenting book. He actually developed an entirely new field of study that really, truly, ultimately transformed my practice, my parenting, my relationships. And really, it is not an exaggeration to save my life. And then in 2012, Dr. Siegel published with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, their first of four extremely important books where they really translated interpersonal neurobiology into practical application for parents, parents in the trenches. I really wouldn't be able to find the words to Express the impact that IPNB, Dr. Siegel, Dr. Tina Payne Bryson have had on me. Two years ago, I was so lucky to have a mutual acquaintance introduce me to Tina, and she was gracious enough to pre read and ultimately endorse raising kids with big baffling behaviors. Which makes it really just surreal that today Tina and I get to sit together in this way after I've devoured all those books. Also, Tina, I've sat in the front row when you spoke many, many years ago at the Tapestry Conference, Irving, Texas. I know that you got to read my book and now I get to invite my listeners into this conversation with you. So some of the formal stuff just to get it out of the way. Tina's a New York Times bestselling author of many, many books, four book series with Dr. Siegel, whole brain Child, no Drama, Discipline, the Yes Brain Power of Showing Up. Several workbooks to accompany those books, as well as her book the Bottom Line for Baby. And now the very soon forthcoming the Way of Play, co authored with Georgie Wisen Vincent. Tina's a therapist, founder and executive director of the center for Connection with three locations in all in Southern California. Is that right? Yeah.

[B]

Yep, that's right.

[A]

Includes this center for Connection and Neurodiversity and the center for Connection partners with the Playstrong Institute, which offers play therapy training, including a certificate in child center play therapy with with neuro relational emphasis. Tina, I am just so grateful for you and your work and your tireless support for kids and families with interpersonal neurobiology, the impact you've had on me and my career and the impact, therefore, you've had on all the families who have been listening to this podcast and that I have the luxury and the privilege of supporting. So thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me this morning. And I'm really excited to to dive into this new book that's coming out next week.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Thank you. What a warm welcome. I'm so touched. Thank you for that beautiful kind of peek into how the books have impacted you. And I want to say to your listeners, I loved your book. I read a lot of books and I start a lot of books and don't finish a lot of books because I just know I'm not going to put my name on them because they have to be aligned with kind of, you know, what I believe in for me to put my name on it. And I love your book. I tell people about your book and so it's super fun to get to connect. I love meeting with like minded People, you and I are both doing the work of trying to get interpersonal neurobiology into the day to day lives. And IPNB changed my life too, obviously my professional life. But I was seeking, I was seeking to understand mechanism. I'm a really, really curious person. And I was in grad school with an 18 month and I was taking all these classes about psychopathology and, you know, all of these things and, and I was like, yeah, but why does that therapy work? Like, how does that therapy work? But not that therapy, like what, what is it? And I went to a conference called From Neurons to Neighborhoods and Dan Siegel was the keynote. And he did. He was not a big name at the time. It was before Parenting from the Inside out came out, which I adore as well. And it was just one year after his book that's kind of become the IPNB bible called the Developing Mind came out. And when he started talking about the framework of interpersonal neurobiology, I was like, I have to go study with this guy. And so in addition to grad school and having babies and kept having more babies and I ended up having, I have three boys. I dove deep into the work of interpersonal neurobiology. And at the time I was planning on being a professor. But as I began to study this and my background's in education, I was like, oh my gosh, parents need to know about this and educators need to know about this and therapists need to know about this and grandparents need to know about this. So I decided to not go into the academic world and instead to take the research and the science and try and make it accessible and help it. I think you and I have probably a really similar, you might language differently, but I think my, the goal of my life's work is to change how people see kids behaviors and how we respond to them with the nervous system and with safe, predictable, positive relationships in mind. And so that's my marching order. And so I'm so excited to join with you and support you and your audience in continuing to make this stuff help us when our kids won't get out of the bathtub or when our teenagers make risky decisions and, and when we feel so tired we don't even think we can go another day. All of those moments. So thank you for having me.

[A]

I mean, interpersonal neurobiology did exactly what you've said. And you have such this brilliant talent of taking this intense, kind of overwhelming science, right. And breaking it down into a way that, you know, the rest of us can, can understand. And I was just such a clear memory of feeling. I don't want anyone else to just tell me what to do. I want someone to tell me why this is happening. Because what's happening in this office with these kids makes zero sense. But it has to make sense. And so you know, being finding Dan and his work and then you know, of course all of his books, but really these books that you guys created, you know, with the parent in mind and helping us just like you said, decode kids behaviors instead of see, see them for what they, you know, what they really are and who these kids, kids really are.

[B]

You know Robin, when I was a green clinician and you know, and I think, I think this is still the case, unfortunately this was a long time ago, I was trained, but it's still the case that I think oh so much of the training for mental health, clinical work and not just mental health, but lots of sort of helping professionals clinical work is still very top down, insight based, narrative based, language based. And typically clients also come in who don't have fully developed and integrated prefrontal cortices. And so I remember, you know, sitting there and I'm like what the hell do I do with these clients? Like thing I've been taught makes zero sense.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And, and so that's where I kind of started moving into more interdisciplinary work, trying to understand the sensory system and all of, and all of these things. But, but I remember just feeling so, so frustrated by, by sort of how training had really not at all prepared me. And so I was so lucky because obviously I was studying with Dan at the time too. And I was like, what do I do? And so I ended up doing Pat Ogden's training in sensory psychotherapy and learning more bottom up stuff. I was like in the trenches, learning from OTs every chance I got. My mom's a neuropsychologist, so I was learning about that. And then I'm so lucky. I know your audience will know this name. Dr. Mona Delahue.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is a neighbor of mine and I knew her. And even though my clinical supervisors primarily I found a few IPNB ones toward the end, but my clinical supervisors were very CBT oriented. They were very. And again, nothing wrong with cbt, but it's one tool, shouldn't be the only tool. And it's not really holding the nervous system in mind. It's really not.

[A]

It's a tool.

[B]

So anyway I, I would call Mona and I was like. So she became kind of my informal supervisor as I was getting licensed. And so I got to kind of swim in the waters of Mona Delahook and Dan Siegel. And then I did some stuff with Alan Shore, and then I got to study with Mary Main a little bit. Like, I feel so grateful for all of these things that allowed my brain to develop in this way, to then get to connect all of this. So. And. And Mona's work, as you know, is just incredible, 100%.

[A]

And then bringing it now to not just parents, but to play therapists as well. And my. I have known about the work y' all are doing, you know, with training play therapists, especially in this, like, CCPT kind of way. Because honestly, CCPT used to kind of frustrate me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because most of the people I knew practicing cp, ccpt, the best I could tell, it wasn't really being practiced in a way that was in alignment with the nervous system, with interpersonal neurobiology. And so. So to watch y', all, like, start to, you know, really bring these two pieces together and. And offer up what I think the true magic of CCPT really can be in child center play therapy, which is the. The presence, the embodiment, the, you know, those pieces. So I love that y' all are doing that out there. Okay, so let's talk about the Way of play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me why. Why another book? Why this one?

[B]

Well, I told you right before we hit record, I was like, I'm not gonna write another book. I have a lot of books, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

I'm tired. I don't want to write any more books. And although, you know, I will say it's sort of like having a baby. Like, for me, I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna have any more baby. And then the minute I have a baby, I'm like, I need to have another baby. My husband kind of was like, three was plenty for him, so we stopped at three. But. But I wrote this book because, you know, I was thinking about this in sort of preparing for this. So Georgie, my co author, is a. Is an incredible play therapist who trains other play therapists. And she. She does it with this whole ipn. Yes, of course, the child centered, but also through the lens of IPNB and neurodevelopmental, you know, lens and all of these things. And. And she's just such an incredible trainer. And so I was like, georgie, we gotta get this. This play therapy stuff and the stuff we're doing for play therapists out to parents.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But let's write something for parents. So she sent me a bunch of stuff, and I was like, we need to turn this into a book. This is too important. And I was thinking in preparation for our conversation about how play is a vehicle that gets us to everything I wrote about in the whole brainchild and no drama discipline and the yes brain and it's a way to show up. So it really is sort of an. It makes sense with the body of my other work. And the title of the book is so important to me because play is the way to build relationship with our children, to build their skills. It's a protective factor. It reduces risk factors. It allows them to process difficult things that they have been through, are going through or things that they're wrestling with and thinking about and working through as well as like building the skills and building the relationships and, and as you know, and as people are talking about a lot, children don't have enough time to play. And it's crazy that we are at a time in history where we have to defend the right of children to play and to be more have to be advocates for them to have that space. The other thing I would say about the why is that I've worked with many, many, many, many parents over the years as, as you have and I'm sure this is your experience too, that even really intentional, even well educated and I don't even necessarily mean degrees, I mean like parents about parenting and child development. Like parents who work really hard, a lot of times they either don't enjoy play with their kids and I definitely felt that way at times with my own, or they're like I want to, but what do I do? So once I get on the floor, then what? And so a lot of parents don't actually know how to play or how to do it in ways that, that work well with their kids. So this book is really about how do you play? How do we take what we know from play therapy and make it every day. And where it's just a few minutes, you don't have to be on the floor making car noises for two hours for it to have an impact. It can be 5, 10, 15 minutes. And so that's why I really was excited about writing this book. And to say here's what it can look like. And I'll just say there's a huge difference between. Well, one of the strategies is called bring emotions to life. And it's one of my favorites because I'll just give an example. My boys, my eldest, Ben, he loved tying knots and, and ropes on things and stringing things up. He the maddest I ever saw. My Husband get was when once we had several kids, Ben moved to the backseat of the van. And so there was. His brother's car seat was in front of him. And while we were driving around for weeks and months, bent tied like 50 knots in the. The extra slack from the car seat. And we were at the airport and we were trying to get the car seat out and running late for the plane. And they were like 50 knots. Anyway, Ben. So Ben would traditionally, like, here's one thing he would do. He would tie a rope to a doorknob and then tie the other part of the rope to the top of a castle or a pirate ship or whatever. And then maybe hand me a super guy of action figure, which he loved. And he'd be like, hey, mom, get this guy down to the ship. You know what? I could easily just hook the guy on the rope and slide him down and go, you know, make a noise and going down. Great. That's wonderful. I'm joining, I'm following his lead. That's great. But I could also bring emotions to life in that moment and say, oh, but it's so high. It's so scary. I don't know, I've never done this before. And I just introduce an emotion this character might feel in the situation. And then what's amazing is then Ben in that moment can say, I'm coming to help you or I'll catch you if you fall, or you can do it, you've done it before, you know, whatever. So he can then jump in with support, with problem solving, with languaging, how to communicate that to someone. So think about the rich amount of skill building that's happening just by me introducing an emotion of this character into this moment in this five seconds. So that's an example of how it's such a rich opportunity to build these skills and to build the brain.

[A]

Just a real quick interruption. If you're loving the podcast, you should go right now to my website. Check out all my free resources. There's webinars, downloadable ebooks, and a huge amount of infographic cheat sheets on so many different topics. Felt safety and boundaries. How to handle lying. What to do if you have a child who seems always dysregulated. How to not flip your lid when your kid is flipping theirs. Steps you can take when your nervous system is fried. What co regulation really looks like. And y', all, that's not even all. There's more. And my team and I add at this point about one new free resource a month. So you're going to Want to check in regularly, see all those free resources and download exactly what you [e-mail] freeresources let's go back to the show. I told you before we hit record that I was looking for your book a few months. I mean it was maybe six to eight weeks ago. I was in my community with the club, the families that I work with. And I don't even remember the specifics, but there was definitely a parent who I wanted to try to find a resource for them to help give them some, you know, kind of play therapy skills essentially at home with their child. I there are not enough play therapists for people, right? We've got to somehow break down these barriers and help other adults develop these skills. Right. And so I was like, I've not been a play therapist for a few years. So I was like, well, I don't know, maybe this book has been written that I don't, you know. So I went looking like, and I asked a play therapy group, does anybody have a recommendation if I want a parent to like kind of learn some of these skills, where do I go? And yeah, came up.

[B]

Yeah, the only book. Okay, so obviously there's several books out there about free unstructured play and that kind of stuff. That's great, important. Stuart Brown is kind of like one of the big guys about play, but it's more about like play histories and, or the science about protective factors. The only book that I knew of that I actually love so much and it informed my life as a mom and as a clinician is Lawrence Cohen's book the Playful Parent. Yes, or Playful Parenting I think is what it's called. And we actually asked him to blur the book because he's such an icon in this space. And you know, I really learned from him a lot of the ideas of like how play states and threat states along with yok pankcepts work that play states and threat states are incompatible neurophysiologically. And so I used to use like tons of play based strategies for kids at home to do with their parents to help them widen their window of tolerance to handle situations that typically would help the child would fall apart. A kid with maybe some sensory challenges who when mom left the house to go to a meeting, would become so dysregulated she would vomit and you know, it was all these things and simply introducing a plan where she and her siblings would create a whole action plan for Operation Prank dad where dad's underwear were in the freezer and there was a bug in his. A fake bug in his food and a laundry basket with socks to, like, launch an assault on him so that mom and we prepared for this. Mom's reaching for the doorknob typically would activate a massive, dysregulated threat response. This time, it was the cue to launch the sock attack. And so the anticipation created a totally different neural state for her. And then we were able to kind of decouple some of the automaticity around mom leaving and everything's terrible and create new firing and wiring around. Oh, this is kind of fun. I can handle this. I can tolerate this. And then we could build upon that repeatedly to change that wiring. So I love Lawrence Cohen's stuff, but there really wasn't a book that was really specific about what do you do, how do you play? That we could find. So we had to write it.

[A]

You did have to write it. And I, you know, I started looking through your book with zero. I had really, truly no idea what it was about besides the title. But, you know, needed to read it to prepare for today. And I really was like, wait, this is that book. I was looking for a couple. Not really, not that long ago. It was probably about six, six weeks ago, to really give parents the structure and support and confidence that they can get into this play. Especially, you know, a lot of the kids that I have worked with and the families now that I work with, their play is sometimes overwhelming, scary, confusing, and at the same time, like, there's no play therapist waiting around the corner to help these kids integrate this scary, overwhelming play. And so helping parents feel confident that they can navigate this play in a way that actually is good for the kid, for the family. So really, as I was. I'm reading this book, I'm like, oh, my gosh, thank goodness somebody wrote this book. It is so excellent.

[B]

There's such simple things. Anybody can do these. Anybody can do these, regardless of our own capacity.

[A]

Yes. So there's seven strategies in this book, like all of the books y' all have written and that you wrote before with Dr. Siegel. Like, they're very structured, which I think is super important when we're learning something new and overwhelming. So very structured. There's these seven strategies. I'm just going to read them, read what they are for our listeners, and then we'll. We'll hone in on. Well, we'll go back to bring emotions to life if you want to, and then we'll do a second one. So there's the in order strategy one. Thinking out loud. It's think out Loud. Let me say it correctly. Strategy one, think out loud. Strategy two, make yourself a mirror. Strategy three, bring emotions to life. Strategy four, dial intensity up or down, which I also really loved that one. Strategy five, scaffold and stretch. Also, I love scaffolding. It's really hard for me to tell you which one is like, I love scaffolding. It feels like such a game to me. Like, we can scaffold that.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we can nerd out about that in neural plasticity, too. I love that.

[A]

Okay. Strategy six, narrate to integrate. Strategy seven, set playtime parameters. And then there are some extra appendices in the book that really help parents with kind of the details of creating a play space and all that kind of good stuff. So we talked already about bring emotions to life with your little guy. And you know, oh, my gosh, this is so scary. And again, like, as you were telling that story, I was like, that is such a brilliant example of an intuitive play therapist. Right. And intuitive play therapist who's willing to take a risk. Right. Like, maybe that wasn't what your kid was communicating. Maybe he wasn't feeling. This is so scary. But, you know, to take a risk and then just kind of see. See what happens next.

[B]

Yeah. I think what's incredible about this is, you know, obviously we know one of the most important social, emotional skills we can help our children build is not just emotional vocabulary. Of course that. But also. What's the word I want to use? Emotional agility. That's what we want them to have. It's a huge part of resilience. It's a huge part of relational health, is to have be in relationship with someone who has emotional agility and the ability to shift their emotions. In fact, let me pull in Dan Siegel here for a second. You know, people talk about self regulation a lot and then CO regulation. You and I probably say the word co regulation 50 times a day, but it's hard. A lot of people don't define it, and people mean different things by it. And I actually think people have gotten way off track on what they think co regulation is. That's a whole other topic. But Dan, I love Dan's definition of regulation. Let's start with regulation. It's the ability to monitor and modify your states. And when I say emotional, let's get even more complicated. Let's nerd out a little more. When I say emotion, of course, I'm talking about a subjective felt, emotional, feeling experience. But anytime I ever use the word emotion, I also mean a physiological State because anytime I feel angry or stressed or embarrassed or any emotion I feel, it also has a neurophysiological map mapping that goes with that. Those things are tied together, right? So if I'm anxious, my shoulders are tighter, my jaw is clenched, my breathing might be increased, etc. So there's physiology that goes with every subjective felt experience. So, so when we're talking. So let me go back to, to regulation. Regulation is the ability to monitor. So I'm noticing what I'm feeling that could be physiological or more em and then modify it. So let's say I'm like, oh, I'm feeling like my heart's beating really fast. I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. I gotta go for a walk, I gotta get out of here, I'm going outside, right? Or I'm gonna breathe differently. So co regulation is the ability to monitor and modify somebody else's state. So it's the idea that I'm gonna notice in my kid that they are shutting down a little bit and pulling back or they're getting hyper aroused and we're starting to see some whining, we're starting to see a little bit of extra motor movement, we're starting to see some kind of clinging and hanging on our bodies. We're starting to see some hyperarousal happening that I might note that I'm going to notice that I'm going to monitor that and I'm going to help modify it by helping them move their body or pull them in close or whatever. My child's unique individual differences given their unique brains and nervous systems and sensory systems. So when we're talking about emotional agility and this idea of bringing emotions to life, what we're doing in play is we're first of all making sure in play. Usually play is when our brains are most receptive and ready to learn, right? Because we're in a state of regulation. If we're in a state of threat, we're not playing. So if we're playing, then curiosity allows the brain to learn more. The brain is receptive, ready to learn. And then I can introduce things following still my child's lead that introduce them to emotional language, but also to practice the tones of voices that go with different emotions. So I've got this character who's scared and he's like, I don't know if I can do it, you know, and then for him to say, oh, I'm going to help solve that problem. So mom continues and play with me. I want this guy to get down to the ship. How do I help her get this guy down to the ship? And then we kind of come out of it like, okay, that works. So it's, it's just like when I lift weights, which I don't do as much as I should, but when I lift weights and I do those reps, I'm building those muscle, right? The reps are what build the muscle. That's exactly how the brain works, right? So we know that the repeated experiences, the reps, are what help the brain fire and wire and build skills. So anything we do in play, which is again a time when they're receptive and ready to learn, are giving reps for things. So when I bring emotions to life with words, with the non verbal stuff that comes with emotions, and then I maybe even introduce like, thanks for helping me down here. It's really helpful to have a friend, like, you know, that kind of thing. So then I'm also introducing strategies to help regulate emotions and those kinds of things. So all of that is happening in just a very quick exchange.

[A]

So much. I mean, it's just so, so, so rich. And I can see how in some ways that could feel overwhelming to a parent. Like, oh my gosh, how am I ever supposed to notice this or pay attention to this or how can. And when y', all, the structure that you and Georgie have like provided in this book, I think allows for a little bit of felt safety for then a parent to go, oh, maybe I can, maybe I can experiment with this. And I think the emphasis on experimenting is so important and we will get it wrong.

[B]

Our kid will be like, no, that's not, don't, not like that, you know, and then you're like, oh. And then you can be playful with that, you know, and repair. But I think, you know, I, I made it really complicated because I was bringing in the science and what skills are being built and all of that. But here's the point. When you are playing with your kid, you really can just introduce the emotions of the character that's involved or your own character. Like, and even if you're tired, you're like, I'm too tired to play. And you lay down and you know what I mean? So you're just bringing emotions in and your own emotions, a character's emotions, your child's emotions. If you're, if you're, if you're playing in a kitchen, you're like my kids for whatever. We went to a lot of dodger games, but they love to play like hot dog guy. Like, they always like to hand out the hot dogs. I don't know why, it's like really funny. I just. And my three boys, all of them played in ways that were totally foreign to me. Like the way I played as a kid and the way they all three of them played were like completely different species. But. But I think, you know, so in those moments, you know, I'm really just following their lead and I'm. It might even, you know, maybe I'm like, I'm too full, you know, whatever. So I'm bringing emotions you're just really bringing in, in how someone might feel into the picture.

[A]

I love how you also gave the example of like, no, like how you're actually really feeling in that moment can inspire you because that's always my go to too. And I'm kind of like, I'm stuck. I don't know where to go next. What do I say? Like, well, what is my actual authentic experience right now? And can I bring that in? And can it be brought in, you know, playfully or. But, but she's like, I'm just so tired to play right now. And yeah, so I love that example especially.

[B]

Yeah, that's fun.

[A]

So tell me about make yourself a mirror. Because that. When I was reading your book, that was like probably my favorite.

[B]

Oh, I love that. I love this one too because it's so simple and it's one of those things you can even do when you're driving. Part of it so much, so much chaos happens when we're driving. It's like really hard to like touch your child or like make eye contact or whatever. I will say one of my go to strategies when everyone's falling apart in the minivan. It was to be like, you're mad, you're mad, you're mad, I'm mad. No one gets to talk. We only listen to music right now and turn the music way up and give myself a few beats and actually we know listening to music and especially if we're singing or humming and activating our vocal cords, that's very regulating and integrating is eventually after I could like a few beats in, I could get regulated enough. Then I would start making up words to the song that were different and usually involving body parts which always made my boys laugh. And so that, that was a good strategy in the car. But make yourself a mirror is literally tuning into what is happening in your child's body, face and voice. So it's the BFVs body, face and voice. And it's really, you know, 80% of our communication is non Verbal anyway. And so this is an opportunity to reflect back to your child what you're seeing them do. So you're not copying them where you're just mimicking every single thing that they do. Because that's annoying, particularly as kids get older. But we do this starting early on. You know, our babies kind of like open their, their eyes wide and open their mouth and we copy it back and then they copy it back. This is something that's kind of something we do from the early times. But when we kind of use our body, our face and our voice to reflect back what we're seeing in our child, it is so simple, but it is incredible in terms of attunement and our child, is it really activating the mirror neuron system and helping our child feel felt, known, seen, etc. So what this looks like practically is if your child is going with their cars, they go up the ramp. You make that sound too, if your child. Like my sons love to play baseball in the backyard. And one of my sons had the same rope tying son. He, he was obsessed with the Dodgers, obsessed with baseball. Still is at 24. But he, he had this whole ritual that I think he had seen a baseball player do. And it wasn't even a real bat, it was a juggling bat because it worked in this little two year old hands better. But he would tap the bat three times, throw it up on his shoulder and then pretend he was like spitting. He did this little, you know, spitting kind of thing. So when I would be pitching to him before I would throw the ball, I would kind of like, I didn't have a bat in my hand, but I would kind of tap three times with my hands, throw it up and then I would pretend to spit. And then I would say, are you ready? And then I would throw the ball. So I'm just joining with him in what is happening with his body, face and voice. And then I do the same.

[A]

I think about how effective this is even with kids who aren't doing what we might call like pretend play, which would happen a lot in the office for me. Like the kids that I was seeing were so chaotic and so disorganized internally. They weren't necessarily having a lot of what we would call play. They were kind of just chaotic and moving around the room and you know, they had a lot of body base movement in play and even that. Right. We can copy mirror, you know, their body posture or pretend like we're jumping next to them if they're jumping or like, you know, the Ways that their faces or if they're blowing up bubbles, we can blow bubbles. Right. Like the possibilities of it are endless.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, I remember learning from Dan Siegel many, many years ago, and it's really impacted me is that what emot. Emotional connection is really about, truly at the base is joined attention. And so that's exactly what's, you know, if your kids in the car and, you know, whatever, and they're making a voice or they're singing something, whatever, you can do it even in the car. But it's really about pulling our attention to exactly what's happening. And they might not even be aware of the faces or voices or movements that they're making, but when you do it, you're reflecting it back to them. So they're also integrating kind of their own experience. Experience. So it's a really, really simple one. And. And sometimes your child will do it back, you know, and that can be really, really sweet too. I. I love this one. It's. I think it's fundamentally about. All about attachment. It really is about attunement, joining, adjusting as needed, maybe even making a repair. Maybe you do something and your kids, like, stop copying me. And you're like, oh, I was trying to have fun. But what I love about this too, is if you don't feel very playful, this is a great one to pull out because you don't have to. It's not a big cognitive load. You're not having to be imaginary, you know, do any kind of, like, creative thinking or anything. You literally can just do what's in front of you. And. And it's. It's incredibly powerful.

[A]

I'm glad you touched too, on like, what happens when they kind of reject it or say, don't do that, or even say, say, don't do that in a mad way that it's okay to risk that because then you can repair.

[B]

You just repair. And that's. That's what all parenting is, is. Is all of that. But yeah, and I think too, you. You can even be playful in those moments. So let's say, you know, you're. You're. Whatever's happening. Your child's like, no, not like that. You can throw in an accent all of a sudden and be like, oh, excuse me, pardon me, sir. You know, whatever. And you're like, like, and. And play the bumb. You know, play. Be like, be a robot all of a sudden. Be like, you have to reprogram me. I don't know what to do. You know, whatever. So you can just Pull in something else there or just say, show me how I want to play the way you want to play. I think you can even just be vulnerable and real in that moment too.

[A]

I love that. Show me how. One of the things I love so much about your book and that I wanted to make sure my listeners hear is that it, it feels attainable, it feels doable, right? I think so often, especially exceptionally stressed out parents, I mean, a lot of parents I work with are like deep and intense burnout. I mean, playfulness is so far from them, you know, because they are so stressed and playfulness is hardly even accessible to them. And so sometimes when we suggest play and playfulness to parents who are that stressed out, that burned out, it feels so big, so overwhelming, so impossible, and really kind of misattuned to even ask that of them. And as I'm reading this book, it was described in a way that was so bite size, so simple, so practical, and the number of examples given, like I'm like, it feels like I'm watching a movie almost more than reading a book because it was so descriptive. And then you know, the graphics that are there and there was just so many of them. And so to any, especially anyone listening who's like, oh my gosh, I just don't have it in me. I cannot muster up play or playfulness. First of all, yeah, we totally get that. But I actually say like, check out this book anyway because it's just broken down into such bite size, little doses and with so much structure. Right? You know, people are stressed out and they can't think about anything. I need you to just tell them what to do, y'. All. Have you heard? The Baffling Behavior Training Institute is now accepting applications and enrolling for the 2026 cohorts of the Professional Immersion Program, which is our program that's formally known as being with. This year long highly experiential program will help you grow your capacity to connect, resonate and be with even the most dysregulated parents with the most dysregulated kids. Graduates become registered raising kids with big baffling behaviors course facilitators which includes a 12 module parent course that you can offer to your clients and community and oodles and oodles of support resources to help your parent clients and implement the science of regulation, connection and felt safety with their kids and families. If you go to robngoble.com immersion, you'll be able to read all about the program details and add your name to the waiting list in 2026. We're offering two cohorts, including a new cohort which meets in the evening time Eastern time zone. This means now professionals from Asia and Australia can more easily participate, as well as students in the U.S. guests who've been unable to participate in a daytime cohort, you must be on the waiting list to apply. So head to robingobel.com immersion now.

[B]

Well, and then here's a couple things. The first thing is when we are really stressed out and overwhelmed and we feel like we can't access play and playfulness, that is even that, that means we need it more than anything. Like that's what we really, really, really need in our own lives. Me play is like thrifting with my best friend or, you know, lots of things that I, I try and access playfulness now, but just joining with your kid is actually stress relieving for us. It activates cues of safety and takes away threat for us. And I would say it's also okay to just sit quietly, present with your child as they play, and just then if they invite you in to just go slow and just join in a little bit, you know, I think all of that's fine. So I think we really need it. But the other thing I would say, and thank you for that encouragement for parents who maybe feel overwhelmed, if you only read like the beautiful illustrations that Merilee Lydiar did. She's the same illustrator who's done all of all of my books. These are done a little bit different from the other books. They're a little bit more watercolor esque, they're a little bit less stick figure, they're a little bit more filled out and they're kind of magical. I think if you just read the captions and the conversations in the illustrations and then we have like, I think we have like 28 pull quotes in the book which are just like the little part of text that gets popped out in bigger and bigger font. That's right from the book. If you just read the pull quotes, read the illustrations. And then like all my books, there's a refrigerator sheet at the back and an appendix about what should be in your playroom. Like what's going to help facilitate children's best play. And it doesn't have to cost money, it doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to look good. And there are different ways you can set it up. Like do you want toys and play things all over your house or do you want them contained? So there's some really helpful kind of practical things. In there as well. I'll say one other thing about reluctant parents or parents who don't feel playful. I think, again, because play is a protective factor against being in threat states and because mental health and anxiety stuff is so, so pervasive right now. Mental health challenges and anxiety among kids and adults, they are mirroring our states. And so if we can access play, we are actually creating tons of cues of safety for them in the world. And over the years, I've had parents who say, like, you know, we know that play helps elicit cooperation. It's so much more effective than command and demand. It's so much more effective than lots of things that we do, like yelling, et cetera. But what's. What's. It's hard to access it, like, when you're overwhelmed, you're stressed, whatever. So I have parents who say, like, I don't want to put on an effing puppet show to get my kids to put their shoes on. Like, just get your damn shoes on. I can't take it anymore.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I know that feeling. Gosh, I know that feeling. But. But we will actually protect our own nervous system so much more. And. And it is so much more effective. And it saves so much time to, like, be like, oh, don't put your shoes on. I'm wearing your shoes today. And so you start pretending or. Or you become Mary Poppins and you start using the Mary Poppins accent and. Or these kinds of things. What will happen is your kids are so much more likely to cooperate and get it done quickly as opposed to the huge cognitive and emotional and physical battle you have if you don't bring in playfulness. So sometimes the play is actually the much easier way to go.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. I actually, for being a play therapist, am not the most intuitively playful individual. I'm not super creative kind of in the moment.

[B]

I'm not either.

[A]

It's hard for me. So I get that. And I get that feeling of, I don't need to do a song and dance routine to get you in the car. Right. Like, I really get that. And yes. Like, I think sometimes we just shift our perspective a little to think about, like, actually, this is good for me. I mean, it's good for my kid, too. Yeah, that's cool. And it'll probably get in the car a little faster. Also cool. But actually, it's good for me if I approach this with a little bit more playfulness, if possible. And I think.

[B]

And if we define play as something that we do that doesn't necessarily have A purpose or goal. We're doing it just for the enjoyment of it. I think about storytelling as play, too. And so one of the best strategies, I swear it worked for all three kids, no matter what the situation was, unless they were like, like in massive pain or something like that is to begin a story. And I, you know, you just make something up. It can be stupid and like, trying to elicit cooperation. Getting out the door, I'd be like, there were these three squirrels and they got in so much trouble, you won't even believe what happened. And then they're like, wait, what's, what's that? Right? And so that's playfulness to create some anticipation and some curiosity, right? And I'm like, put your shoes on, get in the car. And then I'm going to tell you what these things, these squirrels did and what happened. And then they're like, they can't wait to get into the car. It's a great way to get kids up and going toward bedtime. It's a great way to get them to the dinner table. It's a great way to. And again, I'm not, you know, it's. You can make it up and it can be so stupid. I know my kids were like, can you make it more interesting? Like, at bedtime, I'd be like, and then the otters were floating for a long time and they're like, this is really boring. I'm like, it's supposed to be. I'm trying to get you to go to sleep. But. But I think thinking about playfulness is something that's fun just because it's fun. And so anytime you're silly, you know, silliness is part of play as well.

[A]

Well, that piece too. Like, I'm really going to take away what you just said about, like, can we open up something that brings in curiosity? Because curiosity and connection mode go together, right? And so it's silly and playful and it doesn't feel like a lie because you're talking about squirrels, right? Like, it's clear that it's a story. And then if that next step can be curiosity. Now we've got some, you know, keys of safety and some connection mode.

[B]

And yeah, I think it's so important too, when we think about any form of play with our kids, if we really want to know our kids and really know what's happening in their minds and underneath the behaviors, play is. It's. It really is. We're entering a whole universe of their internal world. My, my 21 year old just sent me A story he had written for a school project. It was just a short excerpt, but it talked about how after my grandfather died, so his great grandfather died, about how he would go and he would reenact. He had Lego Star wars guys and he would reenact, like the whole Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker stuff and then Obi Wan Kenobi and him dying. And like, he would just say. He said he would play. He was trying to make sense of this. Of this death, you know. But also, if you have a kid who keeps bossing you around, you know, they're experimenting with feeling what it's like to feel in control and to feel some power. And that might tell you some really interesting things about what they might be experiencing in their own minds or in their. In their social worlds that you're not privy to. So it's a great way to kind of. Of the way we say it in the book is when kids won't say it, they often play it. So we see these themes that are coming out. And sometimes. And by the way, don't read into it too much. Sometimes kids, you know, if you really read too much into what they're doing and literally interpret it, you might be horrified. So don't take it too seriously. But. But it is a great way to join with your child and what they're working through. And I think just overarching. When we think about how the brain changes and develops through experience as development unfolds. When we. Through play, you know, play expands their window of tolerance. So they learn so many things. Like, for instance, if my sons are playing with each other and one of them wants to do it one way and one of them wants to do it the other way, if it's fun enough, they're going to compromise or they're going to work it out, or that one of them might be frustrated but can tolerate their frustration because it's fun enough. So it gives them a ton of practicing, practice even holding and sitting through and working through negative emotions and challenging kinds of social things. But it's also an opportunity for them to practice. Like, you know, we didn't get into it, but the whole dialing up and dialing down. We can help them practice turning down their states of arousal and turning them up, activating them or helping them calm their bodies down through how we're playing with them. And we tell you exactly how to do it in the book. But again, all of this is practice. I think about. I'm a huge. I've watched Friends a million, million, million Times it's the kind of thing like if I'm ever in a hotel room and I'm out speaking or whatever, I just put it on. It's like, you know, and everyone is kind of a famous scene where, where Rachel and Chandler and Ross are trying to get the couch up the stairs. You know, the pivot, pivot scene. And I'm like, I think about how, you know, the ability to operate and move an object in space and make things fit. And I'm always loading crap into the back of my car from thrift stores and stuff. The way we start building that skill is when we are toddlers and there's the little thing where there's a star shape and you try and push it in the square hole and it doesn't go in and you have to keep. So these are the things that's like a motor skill and a spatial skill. But this can all happen with nervous system regulation, with emotional resilience and language, relational skills, et cetera, et cetera. So it's just incredibly powerful.

[A]

Incredibly, incredibly powerful. And I am so grateful that y' all have written this book for parents again to like, break down these barriers because there's again, there's no play therapist hiding around the corner, you know, waiting to rush in and help these, these parents with, with kids who are really struggling. So like I said, it was. It's like I put in a request and you. Or and you wrote the book that I thought I just really needed and wanted you to write. So the book is coming out a week from today on the 21st of January in 2025.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's my understanding that you. That y' all have an event or a. Something. Tell me about it.

[B]

Yep, we do. So there are a couple of, of bonus offers for people who pre order. Those of you who know the publishing world know that pre orders are super helpful to us because they let bookstores know that people are interested and they'll order more and et cetera. So pre orders really help us. And right now, you know, coming off the holidays and all of that, there are often still sales, et cetera. So the. So we have a couple of pre order bonuses and that is some PDFs that talk about how to set up a playroom and, and some, you know, what we would recommend if. And then the other thing is a live event with Georgie and me where we're just gonna answer questions and talk about parenting and, and we'll talk about the book some, but mostly we'll just be there to just connect with Parents. So those are if you just go to the link that you can post for them. There's a, a QR code that'll take you to all the pre order information.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Including the refriger sheet and all that. So you can see it before it even arrives.

[A]

Awesome. Yep. Y' all that are listening. I'll make sure that that gets in the show notes as well as it'll be over on my website.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Thank you, thank you.

[B]

What a wonderful time to connect with someone else who's doing such beautiful work in the world. And I'm, I'm honored to know know you and to have gotten to swim in your work and now to get to chat with you.

[A]

Yeah, me too. I mean it really is remarkable, I think about, you know, being a brand new therapist and how my career has unfolded and who's, you know, had a big impact and been inspiring. And so I'm just really grateful for the work that you've done and how you've impacted me and then been able to impact all these, all these other families that we have the privilege of helping. So thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today and best of luck to you on this book launch and may you not write another book for a very long time.

[B]

I know I'm going to have a tiny rest. I'm, I'm ready to, to focus my attentions in other areas as well. It's a lot to launch a book as you know. I've done it a few times but, but yeah, I'm looking forward to a little bit of downtime. Although that, that doesn't sound like me. So I'll come up with another project and please, please do follow me on social media. I know you'll have my handles there because I love getting to share it with you. So that's where I'm constantly sharing tips and, and approaches that help us be better parents.

[A]

Yes, all of this will be easy to click on down in the show notes. Thank you, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

If you are loving the Baffling behavior show and wondering where to go next where you can get more support or maybe you're a professional and you want to bring this work to your clients, I've got three places you can go next. Number one, my USA Today best selling book, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. It's been over a year and a half and Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors can continues to exceed our wildest dreams. It's breaking sales goals and getting feedback that it's changing people's Lives Raising kids with big baffling behaviors is available in paperback, ebook and audiobook, which I read wherever you buy books online. Okay, so the second way to get more support is to come join us in the club. The club is an online community of connection, co regulation and yeah, a little education. It's for in the trenches parents where you will get support from me, from my team, and from in the trenches parents all over the world. We have over 500 members. You can come into the club, pick my brain, watch over a hundred different videos, Download well over 50 resources that have been uniquely developed just for families in the club to bring owls and watchdogs and possums into your family. And if you're a professional, a therapist, coach, teacher educator, occupational therapist, daycare owner, anyone who supports the parents of kids with big baffling behaviors, you are going to want to hop on the waiting list for the 2026 cohorts of the Baffling Behavior Training Institute's year long professional Immersion Program. Formerly known as being with the Professional Immersion Program immerses our students into an experiential program with the neuroscience of big baffling behaviors and the science of connection, safety and co regulation. You'll grow your own capacity to hang out in the hardest places with families of kids with vulnerable nervous systems and finally feel the professional support you need to work with the families who keep being told by other professionals that they can't help them anymore. We're accepting applications for our 2026 cohorts, including the afternoon cohort and the evening Eastern time cohort. Oh, that's new for 2026. So if you've been waiting for an evening Eastern time time for the immersion program, which is morning in Asia and Australia, then you're going to want to make sure you're on the waiting list. Head to robingoble.com immersion to get your name on the waiting list and be invited to apply. And of course keep coming back to the podcast. A new episode goes live every week and we're continuously creating more and more free resources for you over on my website, robingobel.com.