MAGA Billionaires Turn AGAINST Trump On Tariffs!

Summary

Summary of "MAGA Billionaires Turn AGAINST Trump On Tariffs!" – The Jimmy Dore Show (April 9, 2025)

The Jimmy Dore Show delves deep into the evolving dynamics within the MAGA movement, particularly focusing on how prominent billionaires and Trump allies are increasingly opposing President Donald Trump's tariff policies. This episode not only critiques the economic implications of these tariffs but also explores broader themes related to U.S. foreign policy, especially concerning Iran and Israel. Below is a detailed breakdown of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. MAGA Billionaires Oppose Trump's Tariffs

Bill Ackman's Warning on Economic Fallout

Bill Ackman, a renowned hedge fund billionaire and a key Trump ally, emerges as a central figure expressing concern over Trump's aggressive tariff strategies. According to the episode:

• Economic Nuclear Winter: Ackman warns that Trump's sweeping tariff plans could lead to an "irreparable damage" to the U.S. economy, likening the potential scenario to an "economic nuclear winter." He emphasizes that such measures might trigger a global market meltdown. (Timestamp: [07:45] Aaron Maté)

Elon Musk Advocates for Free Trade

Elon Musk, another significant Trump supporter, diverges from typical MAGA rhetoric by advocating for reduced tariffs and greater international economic cooperation:

• Milton Friedman's Influence: Musk shares a video featuring Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, emphasizing the benefits of the free market in enhancing consumer welfare. He hopes for a transition to a zero-tariff environment between the U.S. and Europe. (Timestamp: [07:45] Aaron Maté)

Other Allies Voicing Concerns

Several other Trump allies echo similar sentiments:

• Maria Bartiromo: Former Fox News anchor Maria Bartiromo warns that Trump's tariffs could lead to "all-out trade wars," adversely affecting the economy. (Timestamp: [09:41] Kurt Metzger)

• Dave Portnoy: The owner of Barstool Sports, Dave Portnoy, mentions personal financial losses due to the stock market's dip caused by tariff-induced instability but remains steadfast in his support for Trump. (Timestamp: [12:44] Dennis Kucinich)

Discussion on the Broader Impact

Participants like Kurt Metzger and Malcolm Nance engage in a dialogue about the broader implications of these billionaire critiques:

• Wall Street Discontent: Metzger expresses a desire to see Wall Street figures like Ackman face setbacks, even if it means personal financial losses. (Timestamp: [09:57] Aaron Maté)

• Economic Misjudgments: There's a consensus that the tariffs might not yield the intended economic benefits, with the potential for increased consumer prices and a slowdown in GDP growth. (Timestamp: [10:25] Malcolm Nance)

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2. Trump's Foreign Policy: Focus on Iran and Israel

Meetings with Netanyahu and Stance on Gaza

Trump's interactions with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are scrutinized, highlighting his controversial positions on Gaza and Iran:

• Support for Israel's Actions: Trump defends Israel's blockade on Gaza, denying responsibility for the humanitarian crisis and promoting the idea of a "Freedom Zone" under U.S. control. (Timestamp: [32:44] Malcolm Nance)

• Netanyahu's Extremist Views: Netanyahu is portrayed as advocating for ethnic cleansing and denying Israel's role in the suffering of Gazans. Trump, in turn, supports these extremist viewpoints, further escalating tensions. (Timestamp: [37:07] Aaron Maté)

Direct Talks with Iran

The episode discusses Trump's announcement regarding direct talks with Iran:

• Broken JCPOA: Trump proposes renegotiating the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), which he previously abandoned, aiming for a more stringent deal akin to Libya’s nuclear disarmament. (Timestamp: [23:10] Aaron Maté)

• Skepticism Over Success: Participants express doubt over the feasibility of such talks, comparing it to past failures where regime changes led to further instability. (Timestamp: [27:19] Kurt Metzger)

• Potential for War: There's apprehension that Trump's aggressive stance could push the U.S. closer to direct conflict with Iran, inadvertently leading to a larger regional war. (Timestamp: [31:27] Kurt Metzger)

Critique of U.S. Involvement in Global Conflicts

The show critiques the U.S.'s role in perpetuating conflicts, particularly in Ukraine:

• New York Times Exposé: A comprehensive analysis of a New York Times article reveals the U.S.'s covert involvement in the Ukraine conflict, suggesting that American agencies are running the war behind the scenes. (Timestamp: [53:20] Malcolm Nance)

• Biden's Proxy War: The episode draws parallels between the Biden administration's actions in Ukraine and Trump's policies, indicating a bipartisan propensity to engage in proxy wars that escalate global tensions. (Timestamp: [56:54] Aaron Maté)

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3. Healthcare Policy Debates

Medicare Reform Concerns

Shifting focus from foreign policy, the show addresses domestic issues, notably Medicare reform:

• Senator Bill Cassidy's Proposition: Cassidy suggests exploring ways to "reform" Medicare, prompting fears that this could translate to benefit cuts despite Trump's assertions that benefits won't be reduced. (Timestamp: [57:07] Malcolm Nance)

• Dennis Kucinich's Defense of Medicare for All: Former Congressmember Dennis Kucinich passionately argues against any reduction in Medicare and advocates for a genuine Medicare for All system. He emphasizes the dire consequences of lowering healthcare benefits and underscores the importance of safeguarding social security and healthcare programs. (Timestamp: [57:57] Dennis Kucinich)

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4. Key Quotes and Insights

• Bill Ackman on Tariffs:

  "The President's sweeping tariff plan, if implemented as planned, would cause irreparable damage to the US economy. The US is heading for a self-induced economic nuclear winter and we should start hunkering down." (Timestamp: [07:45] Aaron Maté)

• Elon Musk on Free Trade:

  "International economic cooperation by way of the free market benefits consumers. I hope the US and Europe would move to a zero tariff situation." (Timestamp: [07:45] Aaron Maté)

• Dennis Kucinich on Medicare:

  "Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security shouldn't be touched. They are not privileges; they are fundamental rights." (Timestamp: [57:57] Dennis Kucinich)

• Trump on Iran Talks:

  "We're having direct talks with Iran and we've started. It'll go on Saturday. We have a very big meeting and we'll see what can happen." (Timestamp: [22:23] Aaron Maté)

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5. Concluding Insights

The episode underscores a noticeable shift within the MAGA faction, where influential financial figures and traditional allies are questioning or outright opposing Trump's tariff policies due to their potentially detrimental economic impacts. This discord signals broader uncertainties within the movement regarding Trump's leadership and policy directions.

On the international front, the show's critique of Trump's foreign policy reveals deep-seated concerns about escalating conflicts and the U.S.'s role in perpetuating wars, particularly in the Middle East and Ukraine. The discussions highlight fears that aggressive stances could lead to greater instability and even global conflicts.

Domestically, the debates on healthcare reform reflect ongoing tensions between preserving existing social safety nets and exploring potential changes, with significant implications for millions of Americans depending on these programs.

Overall, this episode of The Jimmy Dore Show paints a complex picture of political fragmentation, economic uncertainty, and contentious foreign policies shaping the contemporary American landscape.

Transcript

[Aaron Maté]

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[Jimmy Dore]

Come see us on tour in Los Angeles, Bakersfield, San Jose, Buffalo, Toledo, Montreal and Toronto. Go to jimmy dore.com for the cheapest tickets.

[Aaron Maté]

This is the Jimmy Dore Show. Aaron Mate speaking. Who's this?

[Andrew Cuomo]

Hello, Aaron. This is former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. A pleasure to make your acquaintance, but I must say I'm surprised to hear your voice and not Jimmy's.

[Aaron Maté]

Jimmy's not here. I'm filling in this week.

[Andrew Cuomo]

Oh, no. What happened? Did he die from hitting his head on the pavement after falling backwards off a curb and losing his balance after being accidentally hit by a drunk Lithuanian woman on an electric scooter? Oh, no. That's what happened, isn't it? I'm afraid I saw that coming. Very sad, though.

[Aaron Maté]

No, Jimmy's fine. He's just on the road doing shows.

[Andrew Cuomo]

Oh, I was way off. Way off. And so glad that I was, too. Please give our still breathing friend my warmest regards.

[Aaron Maté]

I will. So I understand your mayoral campaign is doing well, Aaron.

[Andrew Cuomo]

It's going gangbusters. Thanks for asking, young man. We are leading in the polls, building a coalition, and overall, just harnessing that Big Apple energy that you can't find anywhere else and only a native son like yours truly can properly channel into electoral success.

[Aaron Maté]

I see. I also see that you have already taken some swipes at your opponents, Aaron.

[Andrew Cuomo]

This is New York City politics. This is the home of Tammany hall, the mayor's race Is not going to be a pillow fight at a middle school girl sleepover, as much as I would like to watch that.

[Aaron Maté]

Okay.

[Andrew Cuomo]

And these swipes, as you call them, were completely fair. I said they were aiding the forces of antisemitism, quote unquote. And I stand by it. And I said it in a synagogue to boot. Not only do I have fucking stugats, I also have chutzpah.

[Aaron Maté]

How are these people aiding antisemitism exactly?

[Andrew Cuomo]

Because they're a member of the dsa, or Democratic Socialists of America, A far left extremist political movement. And let me tell you, these are some real clowns, Aaron. New York wants none of their monkey business. Their platform may as well have been written by a Hamas themselves.

[Aaron Maté]

Because they oppose aid to Israel.

[Andrew Cuomo]

And that's not anti Semitic.

[Aaron Maté]

No, it's not. Considering our aid is currently being used to fund a genocide. I call it a humanitarian position, Aaron.

[Andrew Cuomo]

There is nothing humanitarian about aiding and abetting the world's oldest evil, its most tragic and irrational hatred, the horrid specter that is anti Semitism. And my opponents should know that. Especially the one with the fucking Muslim name.

[Aaron Maté]

You mean Zoran Mamdani?

[Andrew Cuomo]

Yeah, whatever. Good luck to that guy finding donors in this city, put it that way.

[Aaron Maté]

One of your opponents that you accuse is himself Jewish. So don't you, as someone who is not Jewish, feel sort of strange calling a Jewish person anti Semitic? Doesn't that give you pause?

[Andrew Cuomo]

No, because the money. Jews love it. And then they give me money.

[Aaron Maté]

Okay, I think using the term money Jews is way more anti Semitic than anything else here.

[Andrew Cuomo]

Well, then what else do you call them? Besides, if you're pro Israel to the point of being pro genocide, you can get away with all sorts of stuff like that. Once you're one of the good ones, they give you a wide berth.

[Aaron Maté]

I'm an anti Zionist Jew. Does that make me anti Semitic?

[Andrew Cuomo]

I don't understand what you're not getting here. Yes, and I know I'm not the first gentile who has said that to you. Look, I'm trying to win the mayor's race in New York City. I gotta thin the herd. These DSA bozos have no chance. So let's get them out early so we don't have to listen to them prater on. And the best way to do that is accuse them of the only inexcusable crime in this town.

[Aaron Maté]

So this is just cynical political stuff then?

[Andrew Cuomo]

Yes and no. Pragmatic. That's the word I'd use for what I'm doing? I'm a pragmatist and I'm a proud Italian American.

[Aaron Maté]

What does that have to do with anything?

[Andrew Cuomo]

I'm sorry, never mind that last part. That's just instinct. You see, when I'm defending myself, it's usually about the sexual misconduct stuff. Just came out.

[Aaron Maté]

I see.

[Andrew Cuomo]

What I meant to say is I'm a proud spiritual son of Israel and all true New Yorkers feel the same way and are going to vote for whatever old school Italian guy says it loudest. And quite frankly, young man, I can't understand how you can be Jewish and feel that can't and don't feel the.

[Aaron Maté]

Same way by simply understanding the history of Israel since 1948.

[Andrew Cuomo]

My, how anti Semitic of you. See how easy this is? Just avoid any sensible reckoning of what's going on over there now. Talk in circles, say nothing. That's why I'm a politician and you're not.

[Aaron Maté]

And I'm proud that's the case. Look, we have to get the show started. Any final comments?

[Andrew Cuomo]

Yes. To all my Jewish friends listening, especially voters in the five boroughs, I will always have the back of Israel. And to whatever extent the office of New York Mayor supports other nations, I will do that. That. And to the lady in the red dress who was at Table 7 at Luigi's Trattoria in midtown last night. Call me. Call my office. You could do much better than that little wussy guy you were with. Call my office if you want to dance with a ball. Okay? Shalom and Ariva DEI.

[Aaron Maté]

Establishment Media sucks August lighting so good luck. Bullshit. Can't afford why he's commenting this. Watch and see as his jack off the medium speeds and jumps the medium and hit some head on. It's the Chimney Door Show.

[Jimmy Dore]

Come see us on tour in Los Angeles, Bakersfield, San Jose, Buffalo, Toledo, Montreal and Toronto. Go to jimmy door.com for the cheapest tickets.

[Aaron Maté]

Here's the headline in the Washington Post. Bill Ackman, hedge fund billionaire and key Trump ally, slams tariffs. The Wall street mogul warned of economic nuclear winter as the threat of an all out trade war triggers a global market meltdown. Bill Ackman is one of many wealthy Trump allies, Trump boosters who are now speaking out against Trump's tariffs, which they say are going to tank the economy. Bill Ackman, a hedge fund billionaire who endorsed Donald Trump's 2024 candidacy, warned in apocalyptic, apocalyptic terms over the weekend that the President's sweeping tariff plan, if implemented as planned, would cause irreparable damage to the US economy. The US Is heading for a self induced economic nuclear winter and we should start hunkering down. Ackman wrote. Elon Musk posted a video of the late Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman explaining why he believed international economic cooperation by way of the free market benefits consumers. Musk said earlier he hoped the US and Europe would move to a zero tariff situation. So for Musk and Ackman to come out and say this, that's a sharp term because these are obviously some of Trump's biggest allies. To the point where Bill Ackman just a few months ago was saying this about Donald Trump stepping into, I would say the most pro growth, pro business, pro American administration I've perhaps seen in my, my adult lifetime. Certainly we just had a nice little ceremony and you know, CEOs of broad array of, you know, big American companies and I would say everyone is incredibly enthusiastic really about a new administration that's about efficiency, removing the impediments to growth, deregulation. So from, you know, we're really excited. This is great too. This is nuclear winter. That's a threat from Bill Ackman.

[Kurt Metzger]

Yeah, well that's the thing. Bill Ackman's word, what's that good for? Honestly, like I, I honestly Trump all through all these other betrayals, I like to see Wall street being betrayed and I actually don't care if it hurts me, if I can see it hurt them, is that a bad place to be? That's where I am.

[Aaron Maté]

A lot of people feel that way. A lot of people feel that way. That's the problem. It's like when you have people like Bill Ackman who's not only a hedge fund billionaire, but someone who cheers on the censorship of voice is critical of Israel. It's hard to take his side. And if he's feeling gloomy about things and maybe that could be a positive sign for the country.

[Kurt Metzger]

He's not just that scumbag too. Don't forget the, the drug prices that are jacked all the way up. He's worse than pharma bro. Was that everybody hated. He's way worse on that.

[Aaron Maté]

Right, right, right. Here's another Trump ally, Maria Bartiromo saying we could be headed to Fort for.

[Malcolm Nance]

A recession have an effect on Main Street. Some things will become higher price. We will see some products actually, you know, be raised in price because companies will pass on the cost of tariffs to consumers. I would expect that that's why you have some people saying that we could see a recession, we'll see a growth slowdown. This morning, Nancy Lazar, who I follow very closely and I think she's terrific from Piper Sandler. She says if the tariffs stay in place for at least the next six months, even if only 50% of the price shocks where we're seeing products go higher in price show through the economy, US real GDP is on track to decline about 1% in the second quarter and in the third quarter with unemployment rising.

[Aaron Maté]

But look, that's one of Trump's biggest cheerleaders saying this could lead to a recession.

[Kurt Metzger]

You, well, I don't care about none of his cheerleaders. I, I like them to be unhappy. What I'm saying, like everybody I know, in fact all of New York I would say, except for like Dave Smith and I don't know if you live there, but they're all the dumbest people and they're wrong about every single thing they say. So I have a hard time as someone who doesn't really understand the market at all.

[Aaron Maté]

Not me.

[Kurt Metzger]

They're leaving them because weren't we headed for this Armageddon anyway, what with the what's our debt which was going to be passed on to us continually. So I like seeing Bill Amman not like it and Maria Bartolo Lomo not like it. I, I, I really like it's something that he, that's going to harm globalism in a big way. And I'll bet you'd be surprised how many MAGA people will be fine with that.

[Aaron Maté]

Here is Jamie Diamond, CEO of J.P. morgan, uh, of J.P. morgan. He says the Trump tariffs will boost inflation slow and slow, an already weakening economy. That's him now, but listen to him back just a few months ago talking about not only why he supports Trump, but why, you know, he's fine with tariffs. Shit, they're an economic weapon, you know, depending how you use it and why you use it, stuff like that. And you know, people arguing is it inflationary and non inflationary. I would put in perspective if it's a little inflationary but it's good for.

[Dennis Kucinich]

National security, so be it.

[Malcolm Nance]

I mean, get over it.

[Aaron Maté]

National security trumps a little bit more inflation. So get over it. That was him just recently. Now he's saying it's going to cause warning about it. Solid advice, Dave. Dave Portnoy of Barstool Sports, another Trump supporter. He says he's lost a lot of money because of the dip in the stock market, but he's sticking with Trump. I went super viral when I said I lost $7 million.

[Kurt Metzger]

I, I'd kill to be back to losing $7 million.

[Malcolm Nance]

I haven't even looked.

[Kurt Metzger]

If I had to guess, I'm down.

[Malcolm Nance]

In these last three days, probably close to 20.

[Aaron Maté]

I don't know, like, 10, 15 of my net worth. Poof. But I'm still here.

[Malcolm Nance]

That's the game. That's.

[Aaron Maté]

That's what I'm in.

[Malcolm Nance]

Like, do I like it? No.

[Kurt Metzger]

Am I crying?

[Malcolm Nance]

Am I like, oh, whoa, is me? I wish I voted for Kamala. No. Do I wish this didn't go down like this?

[Kurt Metzger]

Yes.

[Aaron Maté]

Am I in this to make money?

[Malcolm Nance]

Yes. Do I wish I had that money in my back in my investment portfolio?

[Aaron Maté]

Yes. So he's lost a lot of money. But again, how relatable is if people are losing, you know, $20 million? Obviously, that's just not the situation of. Of.

[Kurt Metzger]

I'm glad he could take that in stride. Hey, am I down 20 million? Wow. I always think of, you know, how Russia was supposed to be weakened by this stupid thing we did, and. Yeah, they're not, because all the oligarchs, you know, because they were banned from being in the world market, weren't they? And so they had to invest in Russia, and it turned out it was good for them. So I. You know, like I said, I wouldn't claim to be any authority on it because I don't understand how the market works. But here's something I do understand. Those. I mean, Portnoy, not him, but them other two. Those pricks are always touting something that sucks, and then when it is really bad, they're telling you it's good. Oh, we're about to lose a great economy.

[Aaron Maté]

Are we?

[Kurt Metzger]

Like, what are you talking about? This is like a limping thing that something's got to be done. Now, I don't know if it's this. Like I said, I guess we'll see. But I like to see Wall street people upset. I really do. I like to see them jumping out of windows, if I'm being honest.

[Aaron Maté]

I like to see infighting as well, and we're getting a lot of that. Here's Peter Navarro, top Trump advisor on the economy, taking a swipe at Elon Musk, who is not happy about these tariffs.

[Malcolm Nance]

Back to Elon Musk for a second because I'm glad that you brought that up. He also took a shot at you personally on X, and he's going against the administration with respect to the tariff policy. The president has said in the coming months, he may leave the administration. Peter, is there a rift internally?

[Kurt Metzger]

No.

[Malcolm Nance]

I mean, look, Elon. Look, Elon, when He's in. His Doge line is great, but we understand what's going on here. We just have to understand. Elon sells cars, and he's in Texas assembling cars that have big parts of that car from Mexico, China. The batteries come from Japan or China. The electronics come from Taiwan. And he's simply protecting his own interests, as any businessperson would do. We're more concerned about Detroit building Cadillacs with American engines. And that's what this is all about. So it's fine. There's no riff here.

[Aaron Maté]

Look, Elon, I like that he admits that Elon Musk has a massive conflict of interest, like being a top government advisor, while also having a stake in certain policies that benefit his profits. I mean, that's refreshing to hear that admission from.

[Kurt Metzger]

But I thought Elon controlled Donald Trump. I thought he was in charge. He was the head oligarch. Breaking points.

[Aaron Maté]

Well, obviously there's a rift there, despite what Peter Navarro says. Here is Rand Paul. Yeah, go ahead.

[Kurt Metzger]

It's not. It's not quite a soothing balm for all that Israel shit, but, you know, it cools the burn a little bit.

[Aaron Maté]

Here is Rand Paul also not a fan of the Republican.

[Malcolm Nance]

I am a supporter of Donald Trump, but this is a bipartisan problem. I don't care if the republic, if the president is a Republican, Republican, or a Democrat. I don't want to live under emergency rule. I don't want to live where my representatives cannot speak for me and have a check and balance on power. One person can make a mistake, and guess what? Tariffs are a terrible mistake. They don't work. They will lead to higher prices. They are a tax, and they have historically been bad for our economy. But even if this were something that was magic and it was going to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I wouldn't want to live under emergency rule. I would want to live in a constitutional republic where there are checks and balances against the excesses of both sides, right or left.

[Kurt Metzger]

We don't have that now, Brand, I don't know if you notice. I love the. I love the. The Fauci hearings. There are a lot of laughs. They don't do nothing. So I don't know. I'm all like, are all these people not aware of where things are at right now? Like, they seem like they're not.

[Aaron Maté]

Here's Donald Trump's message to his haters. The US Has a chance to do something we should have done decades ago. Don't be weak. Don't be stupid. Don't be a panic in a new party based on weak and stupid people. That's what Pannequin is.

[Kurt Metzger]

He wrote that himself, for sure.

[Aaron Maté]

Panneken. That's the latest. That's the latest one from Trump. Be strong, courageous and patient and great witness will be the result. So.

[Kurt Metzger]

We can. Stupid people. Oh, hilarious. Well, look, I saw Ramp Paul. It's like one of guys I'll agree with. And I'll watch him go like, why should we have to pay those soldiers that have that burn pit illness.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kurt Metzger]

And I'm like. And then that's where the libertarian part of it, where you're like, the flaws in it kind of come out.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah.

[Kurt Metzger]

I don't understand why the terrorists are working now. I just got done watching the great Ben Shapiro try to explain. He goes, well, how come other. Other countries do it to us? And he mentioned how a lot of poor countries do it and they're poor. But are. Do other countries have tariffs on us? Even the ones from the chart are not accurate, like Europe. And are they putting tariffs on it? Why is it working for them? That's maybe a dumb question.

[Aaron Maté]

They definitely have tariffs on the US And I think, and that's. That's the hope for people who want Trump to remove the tariffs, that they're hoping that his position will force other countries to remove their terrorists enough to give Trump to back down. But so far, Trump is not even open to that, according to at least his public statements.

[Kurt Metzger]

Well, they better get on his good side quick before the nuclear wind. What did Bill Ac. The great Bill Ackman say? Nuclear winter.

[Aaron Maté]

Nuclear winter, yeah. Economic. Nuclear.

[Kurt Metzger]

You know, when they say that, it's like a bunch of people just live like that already for quite some time now. It's gonna.

[Aaron Maté]

It.

[Kurt Metzger]

What it tells me is it might be bad for them, you know, not that will improve life for me. I know. And I'm fine. I'm okay. I can live. I'm getting a real commie where I just want them on half and I don't care if I'm unhappy. Is that bad? That's where I'm at.

[Aaron Maté]

Well, we'll see where this continues to go. But for now, Trump is not backing down, even though some. Even though some of his top allies are increasingly speaking out. So we'll see where this goes.

[Jimmy Dore]

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[Malcolm Nance]

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[Aaron Maté]

Learn more at Tatari TV Donald Trump at the White House hosting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and making an announcement that the US Will be holding direct talks very soon with Iran.

[Malcolm Nance]

Wait a minute, Wait, wait, wait. We're having direct talks with Iran and they've started. It'll go on Saturday. We have a very big meeting and we'll see what can happen. And I think everybody agrees that doing a deal would be preferable to doing the obvious. And the obvious is not something that I want to be involved with or frankly that Israel wants to be involved with if they can avoid it.

[Aaron Maté]

So I beg to differ. Trump is wrong to say that Israel does not want to be involved in an attack on Iran. Israel would love an attack on Iran. That's been. That's what.

[Kurt Metzger]

They don't want to do it themselves.

[Aaron Maté]

Themselves, Exactly.

[Kurt Metzger]

That is accurate. They don't want to be involved. They want us to do it.

[Aaron Maté]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They don't do it by themselves, but they would love to be involved in a US strike on Iran because they can't do it without the US that's why they've been lobbying Trump to do it for a very, very long time.

[Kurt Metzger]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Nance]

Gna see if we can avoid it, but it's getting to be very dangerous territory and hopefully those talks will be successful and.

[Aaron Maté]

All right, so that's Trump announcing direct talks with Iran.

[Kurt Metzger]

Nukes. Do they even have them?

[Aaron Maté]

No. And as we covered last week on the Jimmy Dore show, the US Intelligence community just put out an assessment saying that Iran is not developing nuclear weapons. They are becoming a nuclear threshold nation, which they're allowed to do because they're allowed to enrich uranium just within certain limits, which they've kept to so far. But the fear of Trump is that they're going to go past those limits, and that's what there is to negotiate about. But as of right now, according to Trump's own intelligence agencies, Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program.

[Kurt Metzger]

This is what I don't get. They have those missiles that we don't have, you know, because we send our manufacturing out of the country. So I always thought it was smart, like, because I thought they were developing nukes, but they were actually making missiles you can use because they're not nukes. And so is this going to be directly leading to war? Because if they don't have the nukes, and Trump's like, well, you have to do this. We have to bomb you. That looks. That's why BB's all excited over there. He must know they don't have them and feels inevitable.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah, well, it depends what kind of deal Trump is pushing for. Is he. Does he just want to deal with the nuclear issue? Which I think Iran did that before they had a deal before. In fact, Trump was asked about this. So let's hear from Trump first.

[Malcolm Nance]

If you're going to negotiate a new.

[Aaron Maté]

Deal with Iran, can you elaborate how it's going to be more effective than the jcpoa?

[Malcolm Nance]

Well, I can't really say that, but I think it'll be different and maybe a Lot stronger. But they were so happy when we made that first deal because we did get a lot out.

[Aaron Maté]

So it's a fair question, like we already had a deal with Iran, the jcpoa, which Trump broke in his first term. So are you just gonna like renew that deal you broke or are you gonna get something else? And Trump says it's going to be a lot stronger. And the question is, you know, is Trump going to ask Iran not only to denuclearize but also give up other missiles that act as a deterrent to Israel or to cut off. It's, it cut off ties to Hezbollah which is its main ally in the region. That's a whole other story, which I don't think Iran will agree to that first deal.

[Kurt Metzger]

Now what I thought was there was some background of that where it was so France could trade with them again because France, remember it was around the time Niger kicked France out. And that's what was actually like dodgy about that deal, was it was to hook up France in some way. Do you remember that?

[Aaron Maté]

Well, you know, I can't speak to that. What I do know about the first deal is that it just dealt with nuclear. Right? And Israel hated that and neocons hated that because they wanted basically to completely neuter Iran so that Iran would no longer support groups like Hezbollah which act as a deterrent to Israeli aggression. And that's why Trump tore it up, is because he wanted something more complete. And the question is, is Iran going to agree to something that makes it, that basically undermines its standing with its allies, including Hezbollah, which it's invested a lot in being a partner of and which, you know, helps stand up to Israeli aggression in the region. That's, that's the question. But here is Barack Ravid of Axios. This is what Netanyahu is pushing Trump to do. Netanyahu thinks the chances of a U S Iran nuclear deal are extremely low, but will present to Trump how a good deal should look like. An Israeli official says Netanyahu wants the Libya model, full dismantling of Iran's nuclear program. The Libya model. What's the Libya model? That's where Libya gave up its nuclear program and basically all of its deterrence. And then what happened? It got regime changed, so US took it.

[Kurt Metzger]

So that's what sodomize you with a stick.

[Aaron Maté]

Exactly.

[Kurt Metzger]

I wonder if they'll bite on that.

[Aaron Maté]

Wow. Exactly. That's literally happened. So Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program, he gave up all his deterrence and he ended up getting sodomized by US backed rebels. After the war. Here's Trina Parsi with his analysis. Oh, let me. I don't think. Okay, there we go. There is much focus on Trump's claim that his envoys will meet with the Iranians on Sunday in direct talks, though there was no confirmation from the Iranian side of such a meeting. It would be a positive development if the two parties meet, particularly if the meeting is direct. But the more important variable is one that continues to remain murky. What are the parameters of the talks and what red lines and strategy is Trump pushing? If Trump seeks to dismantle the Iranian nuclear program Libya style, which is exactly what Netanyahu is pushing him to do, in addition to closing down Iran's missile program and Tehran's relations with its regional partners, then diplomacy will most likely be dead on arrival. This strategy has been favored by the Israelis, John Bolton and Mike Pompeo, precisely because they knew it would fail. If Trump's strategy is centered on achieving a verification based deal that prevents an Iranian bomb, his only red line, then there is reason to be optimistic about the upcoming talks. Who treated Parsi is saying, is if Trump wants to basically return to the deal that he tore up in his first term, then yes, there's plenty of room for negotiation. If you're trying to get more than that. A Libya style deal where basically Iran makes itself vulnerable to another a regime change operation like what happened in Libya, then forget it.

[Kurt Metzger]

Does Israel honestly, God, now 9, 11, you know, a bunch of people are like, yeah, let's go over there and clean it up. That was 20 years ago. Not everybody's that big of a. That thinks that that was a great idea that we did that. In fact, I would say very few people who benefited from it think that. Right, Correct. So in Iran, who's gonna send their kids? That wasn't October 7th. Wasn't 911 here that was there.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah.

[Kurt Metzger]

So I noticed them trying to whip up the same fervor as if it was a, you know, an attack on the one I saw when I was in New York.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah.

[Kurt Metzger]

And I don't see, like, who's gonna join up for that.

[Aaron Maté]

Well, Kurt, one answer is this guy, Senator Tom Cotton, a Republican, who. This is him recently questioning the incoming chair of the Joint Chiefs at his confirmation hearing. And Tom Cotton wanted his assurance that basically war with Iran would not be such a big deal, that there's too much hysteria over the possibility of war with Iran. There's some hysteria about the prospect of the president ordering these strikes or someone like you in uniform providing him advice that it's going to lead to another forever war or another endless war.

[Kurt Metzger]

You know, one of these forever. We only last 20, 30 years.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah, like Afghanistan forever war in Afghanistan. That went fine. What's wrong with having that again? Another forever war.

[Kurt Metzger]

God, that's great.

[Aaron Maté]

And by the way, this is what Trump campaigned against. Trump campaigned against the forever war. So Tom Cotton is mocking, basically a central tenet of Trump's campaign.

[Kurt Metzger]

Yeah, I'm being a lady about it. It must be my ovaries. I need a hysterectomy for my hysteria. Tom, wow.

[Aaron Maté]

Are you aware of operations, maybe operations against Iran like the tanker wars in 1988, in which the forceful but discriminate application of military power did not lead to a forever war or an endless war, but rather led to peace and stability?

[Malcolm Nance]

Yes, sir.

[Unknown Speaker]

Those examples in our history do exist.

[Aaron Maté]

Maybe the Qasem Soleimani strike in 2020 as well, that caused Iran to pull in its horns for the rest of President Trump's first term. Thank you, General Kaine. Thank you, Senator. So there's Tom Cotton saying, look, what's with the hysteria? War can lead to peace. Literally. That's his argument.

[Kurt Metzger]

Killed their general. I think the killing their general might be why these talks ain't going to work out. Well, I guess you don't want it to work out. So.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah. And what happened, by the way, after Trump ordered the killing cost him SO money. Iran retaliated by striking a U. S. Base in Iraq and wounded a bunch of U. S. Soldiers. And that's exactly. Wants to sacrifice once again. Yeah, he wants to sacrifice them once again to get his war with Iran. The question is, who's Trump going to listen to? Is it people like Netanyahu and Tom Cotton, or is it people like Tucker Carlson who's. I'm speaking out against the war with Iran? That's the question before us as the US And Iran renew direct talks.

[Kurt Metzger]

The answer is neither. Laura Loomer.

[Aaron Maté]

Here's Donald Trump welcoming Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the White House. They're good friends. Trump is tall, you know, and Netanyahu, of course, coming to the US despite being a wanted war criminal by the International Criminal Court, which has issued a warrant for his arrest for the genocide in Gaza. But that doesn't matter to Trump, who doesn't care about that. And Trump, in talking with Netanyahu, not giving up on his plans to take control of the Gaza Strip.

[Malcolm Nance]

The IDF is fighting to get in the Gaza Strip.

[Aaron Maté]

I myself might be called up in a month. Do you Think that's the way to pressure Hamas to get to a deal.

[Malcolm Nance]

And do you think blocking humanitarian aid.

[Aaron Maté]

Is also an effective pressure?

[Malcolm Nance]

Well, you know how I feel about the Gaza strike trip. I think it's.

[Aaron Maté]

Note how the he was asked, do you think blocking humanitarian aid was that.

[Kurt Metzger]

REPORTER 4 Doing that? That's how that came off to me.

[Aaron Maté]

Well, great. I mean he's from the Times of Israel, so that's a fair assumption. Yeah, yeah. But of course Trump is going to avoid that question because look, Israel's been blocking everything getting into Gaza for. Yeah, no, I know, Several weeks now. A complete siege, which is collective punishment, it's a war crime, but totally normalized. Just as every day slaughtering mass numbers of civilians in Gaza has become totally normalized. So Trump is just going to avoid the questions.

[Kurt Metzger]

Remember we killed all them kids with sanctions. Like. Sure, that's what sanctions is, a group punishment, a bunch of people. And I don't know why it's not considered a heinous crime. I guess it is by the people it's happening to.

[Aaron Maté]

Yep. Here's more of Trump's answer.

[Malcolm Nance]

An incredible piece of important real estate and I think it's something that, that we would be involved in. But you know, having a peace force like the United States there controlling and owning the Gaza Strip would be a good thing because right now all it is, is for years and years all I hear about is killing and Hamas and problems. And if you take the people, the Palestinians and move them around to different countries and you have plenty of countries that will do that and you really have a freedom, a freedom zone. You call it the freedom zone, a free zone, a zone where people aren't going to be killed every day. That's a hell of a place. It's a, you know what I call it? A great location that nobody wants to live in because they really don't. And when they had good living, when.

[Kurt Metzger]

They have, oh well, I don't know what to. Who's going to control that natural gas, you know, the trillions of natural gas in Gaza. Do we get that when we take control?

[Aaron Maté]

That's what the Freedom Zone means, is we have the freedom. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Look, he says no one wants to live with the people of Gaza would love to live there. They want to live in their homes. They just don't want to live under occupation and now genocide. And he makes this all the seem as if it's some kind of natural disaster when really this is a man made phenomenon funded by, funded and armed by him because he's giving Israel the weapons and all the support it needs to carry out mass murder inside of Gaza. But he's still talking about, rather than ending the genocide, about basically forcing Palestinians to flee. So he's talking about not only the US taking Gaza, but then committing ethnic cleansing of the people who live there.

[Malcolm Nance]

Good living, real living, where Hamas and all of the problems, the level of death on the Gaza Strip is just incredible. And I've said it, I don't understand why Israel ever gets gave it up. Israel owned it. It wasn't this man, so I can say it. He wouldn't have given it up. I know him very well. There's no way they took potion.

[Kurt Metzger]

This guy doesn't give up any land. He grabs it. He's a hungry hippo, this guy in front property.

[Malcolm Nance]

And they gave it to people for peace. How did that work out? Not good.

[Jimmy Dore]

He didn't even get.

[Aaron Maté]

Okay, so what he's doing there is basically he's endorsing the like ultra extremist fringe of the Israeli spectrum, which is mad that in 2005 Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. They had settlements there, but they, and they did that not because they wanted to make peace, but because it was becoming too expensive to maintain and just too, too difficult to maintain these illegal Jewish settlers in occupied Gaza. So they pulled them out and then moved them all to the occupied west bank. And that's what they, Israel really wanted to steal is the west bank land. Because the west bank is more valuable for Israel than Gaza is because the west bank has major water reserves. So Trump is saying that even that was a mistake. Israel used to have Gaza as if Israel owned it. He even says they owned it when really Israel was illegally occupying it, never had a right to it. And Trump is basically throwing all that out the window and endorsing the ultra extremist Israeli point of view that we never should have removed illegal settlements from Gaza.

[Kurt Metzger]

First of all, just the fact that there's anybody in this current year that's called a settler, that's a huge problem. I can't understand why just the word itself tells you they're stealing somebody's land.

[Aaron Maté]

Yes. And settler, that's even a watered down term because they're really, actually they're colonists. They're, they're, they're colonizing someone else's land. Settler means, oh, you're going to a land, maybe it's empty, you're going to settle it.

[Kurt Metzger]

And a land without a people for.

[Aaron Maté]

Exactly.

[Kurt Metzger]

Without a land.

[Aaron Maté]

All right, so here's here's Netanyahu commenting on this. Of course, he loves Trump, Trump's plan of ethnic cleansing. And here's Netanyahu saying that basically Palestine should be free to go wherever they want. He doesn't understand what the problem is. And he denies that Israel has played any role in keeping them imprisoned and mass murdered in Gaza.

[Kurt Metzger]

I think what the President talked about.

[Malcolm Nance]

Is first of all, to give people a choice.

[Kurt Metzger]

Gaza, Gazans were closed in and any other place, including in arenas of battle.

[Malcolm Nance]

I mean, whether it's Ukraine or Syria or any other place people could leave. Gaza was the only place where they locked them in. We didn't lock them in. They're locked in.

[Aaron Maté]

We didn't lock them in.

[Kurt Metzger]

Lock them in.

[Aaron Maté]

We didn't lock them in. Israel controls all the border crossings in and out of Gaza. On the Israel side, they didn't lock them in.

[Kurt Metzger]

They had a siege around them for the last 20 years.

[Aaron Maté]

They've. Exactly. So this is just like this is peak Orwellian propaganda. Israel is the occupier of Gaza. They prevented people from leaving. The only people who can get out now are people are Gazans who can come up with enough money, like thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to basically bribe Egyptians at the border to let them free leave. But that's a very small number of people. Otherwise Israel keeps the people in Gaza under total siege. And this guy Nano claims we didn't lock them in. When Israel's the military occupier of gas, it's put them under siege. Cancer patients can even come referring to. Let me finish this.

[Kurt Metzger]

Sorry.

[Aaron Maté]

Cancer patients. Cancer patients can't even leave Gaza. Many cancer patients can't even leave Gaza because Israel won't let them leave to get treatment. Wounded Palestinians, wounded who's. Who've been, you know, gravely wounded by Israel. They can't leave because Israel won't let them out. And he goes to the White House and claims that we didn't lock them in. I mean, it's just the lying is off the charts.

[Kurt Metzger]

Was it worth it before allowing you. You could leave but never come back, wasn't it? We'll make your life hell. And if you say you want to leave, you could just give up all rights, anything you have here.

[Aaron Maté]

Only if you can afford it. Only if you can afford to pay the bribe to Egypt. That's the only, that's your only chance of getting out. Oh, it's the only chance of getting out. Trust me, I have a lot of friends who would love to escape, but they can't because they don't have the money. So because. And it's Israel that is locking them all in. So this is just, it's, it's a malicious lie and coming from someone who controls the fate of 2 million people, claiming that he has nothing to do with their torment as he carries out a mass extermination campaign and won't let people leave and blocks it, blocks all aid from getting in. He's imposing a siege from getting in. All right, let's see.

[Kurt Metzger]

He called them Amalek. So that means. Which were like some people that deserve to be all murdered together at once. So that's his feeling. So he don't care.

[Malcolm Nance]

And what is wrong with giving people a choice?

[Kurt Metzger]

Now, we've been talking, including over lunch.

[Malcolm Nance]

About some countries, I won't go into.

[Kurt Metzger]

Them right now, that are saying, you know, if Gazans want to leave, we want to take them in. And I think this is, this is.

[Aaron Maté]

The right thing to do.

[Malcolm Nance]

If you give, you know, it's going.

[Kurt Metzger]

To take years to rebuild Gaza.

[Malcolm Nance]

In the meantime, people can have an option. The President has a vision.

[Aaron Maté]

Countries are responding to that vision.

[Malcolm Nance]

We're working on it.

[Kurt Metzger]

I hope we'll have good news for you.

[Aaron Maté]

All right, let's go to one more clip of Netanyahu, because he keeps talking about how, you know, yeah, it'd be great if Palestinians had the free choice to go wherever they want, except for the homes that they were expelled from inside Israel, which is basically, the majority of Palestinians in Gaza are either refugees from what is now Israel or the descendants of those refugees. But will Netanyahu let them come back to their homes? Absolutely not. But, but here he is enabling the.

[Malcolm Nance]

People of Gaza to freely make a choice to go wherever they want. I mean, they should have that choice. And the President put forward a vision, a bold vision, which we discussed as well, including the countries that might be amenable and are amenable to accepting Palestinians.

[Aaron Maté]

Of their free choice if they choose to go there. And I think that's the second thing that we discussed.

[Malcolm Nance]

But the hostages came right on top.

[Aaron Maté]

Yeah, free choice. Free choice. Again, if you were to give Palestinians and Gaza a free choice, I think most of them would say, I want to go back to my home that you stole from me in what is now Israel. But that's not on the menu here. What's on the menu from both these people is ethnic cleansing of 2 million people. And that's why they continue to attack Gaza, because they want to make it unlivable to push out as many people as Possible. I'm sorry, Kurt. It's so grim. There's not much to joke about, but it's just that's this is just this is what's out in the open. Here's Trump being reminded today at the White House that, hey, a lot of people voted for you, including Arab Americans, because you promised to stop the carnage in the Middle East. So what happened to that? And this was Trump's response.

[Malcolm Nance]

The war is still going on. The war Americans who voted for you.

[Aaron Maté]

Voted for you are not for Biden.

[Malcolm Nance]

Because you've promised them to end the war in Gaza. The war is still going on.

[Aaron Maté]

There's no so Trump says, I'm very honored by those who voted for me to end the wars in the Middle East. So what is he doing to live up to that? Because right now Israel's carrying out mass murder campaigns, slaughtering civilians every single day with his support. So if he's honored by the vote of people who wanted peace, why isn't he pushing for peace and why is he pushing right now for to give Israel all the weapons it needs to carry out mass murder?

[Kurt Metzger]

They've killed more Americans than Iran has ever done. Israel has.

[Aaron Maté]

That's right, yeah. In the west bank, they just killed a Palestinian American teenager who was allegedly throwing a rock, a rock at settlers. And so Israel shot him and killed him. And of course, no mention of that today from Trump.

[Malcolm Nance]

Hostage deal.

[Aaron Maté]

Do you have any update on that?

[Malcolm Nance]

Well, I'd like to see the war stop and I think the war will stop at some point. That won't be in the too distant future. Right now we have a problem with hostages. We're trying to get the hostages out. We got quite a few of them out, but it's a long process. It shouldn't be that long.

[Aaron Maté]

So that's Trump at the White House claiming that he thinks the war will be over soon. But we have a problem with the hostage. Well, who's in the way of releasing the hostage? It was Netanyahu who blew up the cease fire deal. The next phase of which would have seen all the remaining hostages released so that it can continue to carry out mass murder in Gaza. And by now, endorsing again the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, Trump is reminding everybody that despite his campaign pledges to bring peace, he's only giving Netanyahu a green light for more mass murder. The Russian envoy to the US, his name is Kirill Dmitriev and he is in the US for talks with senior US Officials from the Trump administration, also in Congress as well. And he went on Fox News to talk about the progress so far of these negotiations toward ending the proxy war in Ukraine rise the talks right now.

[Malcolm Nance]

And how they're going.

[Aaron Maté]

I think President Trump administration has made tremendous progress. There was no dialogue with Russia in Biden administration for the last three years. There was no trying to understand Russian position. There was no really solutions that could have been successful. And what President Trump team has done, they understood what the solution space may be and they achieved the first de escalation ever in the conflict, which is stopping hits on energy infrastructure between Russia and Ukraine. So we are having good discussions. Our diplomatic people are also discussing possible outcomes. But there is no question that President Trump team not only stopped World War 3 from happening, but also had already achieved sizable progress on Ukraine resolution. So he says two important things there. First of all, he says the Trump administration is doing what the Biden administration refused to do, which is talk the Biden administration wouldn't even speak to Russia while fueling a massive proxy war in Ukraine against it. But then he says the Trump administration in talking to Russia has helped avoid World War Three. And you might hear that and think, okay, he's exaggerating. He's doing that to flatter Trump. Well, guess what? There are people inside the Biden camp who thought the exact same thing as well. That's a takeaway from a new article in the New York Times called the Partnership the Secret History of the War in Ukraine. It's based on interviews with dozens of officials from the U.S. and other NATO countries that were behind the proxy war in Ukraine. And there are many revelations in there, including this talking about the Biden administration's decision to continually cross its own red lines and provide weapon systems to Ukraine that it previously had ruled out. And that includes Himars. So here the Times quotes Celeste Wallander, who was the under Biden, the Assistant Defense Secretary for International Security Affairs. And she quotes Mark Milley, General Mark Milley, the former chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And she says Milley would always say, you've got a little Russian army fighting a big Russian army and they're fighting the same way and the Ukrainians will never win. But then she says, by contrast to Milley's argument, General Christopher Cavoli, who is the commander of forces in Europe, he argued that with Himars, this missile system, the Ukrainians can fight like we can, and that's how they will start to beat the Russians. So if we just give them our weapon systems, then Ukraine will be on our level, on the US's level, and then we can beat the Russians, okay? And then listen to this. At the White House, Joe Biden and his advisors weighed that argument against fears that pushing the Russians would only lead Mr. Putin to panic and widen the war. When the generals requested Himars, one official recalled, the moment felt like standing on that line, wondering, if you take a step forward, is World War three going to break out? And guess what? They took that step forward of authorizing these weapons systems to Ukraine, even though they were wondering, is this going to cause World War 3? So they took steps that they were not sure could avoid World War Three. They were willing to risk World War three just for their proxy war against Russia. And the New York Times goes on. The unthinkable had become real. The US Was now woven into the killing of Russian soldiers on sovereign Russian soil. Yes, that's right. The Biden administration took steps that made the US Part of a killing machine against Russians on Russian soil, because eventually, because the Biden administration kept crossing its own red lines. They were involved not just in attacking Russian forces on Ukrainian soil, but also Russian forces across the border inside of Russia. And here are some of the key takeaways from this piece, which the Times helpfully put together. A U.S. base in Weissbach in Germany supplied the Ukrainians with the coordinates of Russian forces on their soil. So contrary to the widespread view that this was a war between Ukraine and Russia, this actually was a war between Russia against Ukraine and the U.S. with the U.S. choosing the targets for Ukraine from Germany nearby from a US Base in Germany. So at a base in Germany, the US Was choosing which targets Ukraine would hit and then giving them to the Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians would strike them. So basically, it was the US Running the war from behind the scenes. Here's another takeaway. The Biden administration kept moving its red lines. From the first, administration officials sought to lay down a red line. America was not fighting Russia. It was helping Ukraine. Still, they worried that steps taken to accomplish that might provoke Putin to attack NATO targets or perhaps make good on his nuclear threats. Even as the administration developed an ever greater tolerance of risk to help Ukraine meet the evolving threat, many of the most potentially provocative steps were taken in secret. So, yes, we're not fighting Russia. On the other hand, we're gonna fight Russia, but just do it in secret and hope that nobody notices, including Russia, which, of course, Russia knew along that we were doing. Here's an example of the US moving its red lines. In 2002, the US Navy was authorized to share targeting information for Ukraine. Ukrainian drone strikes on warships just beyond the territorial waters of Russian annex Crimea. The CIA was allowed to support Ukrainian operations within Crimean waters. That fall, the spy agency covertly helped Ukrainian drones strike Russian warships in the port of Sevastopol. So the CIA, the New York Times now admits, of course, way after the fact, was involved in attacking Russian ships inside of Crimea, which Russia seized in 2014 after the US backed a coup in Kyiv. So now we learn after the fact just a new aspect of how dangerous this was, that the CIA was being involved in targeting Russian ships. Here's more. In January 2024, U.S. and Ukrainian military officers in Weissbaten in Germany jointly planned a campaign using coalition supplied long range missiles along with Ukrainian drones to attack about 100 Russian military targets across Crimea. The campaign, named Operation Lunar Hail, largely succeeded in forcing the Russians to pull equipment, facilities and forces in Crimea back to the Russian mainland. So, Malcolm, let me bring you in here. Now, of course, I mean, we've been saying this all along, we've covered this endlessly here on the Jimmy Dore show, as we have also at Grey Zone, that the US Was actively involved as a belligerent in this war. This idea that we were just helping the Ukrainians, giving them the equipment they needed, that was always a farce. We were running this war from behind the scenes. And now it takes a long time. But the New York Times comes out with a very long piece confirming it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I think you're failing to factor in one important aspect, which is that it's not just a matter of us supplying Ukraine with, you know, the weapons of war they need to wage this war. But we need to supervise closely what they're doing because left to their own devices, they'll just sell them on the black market. They won't even attack Russia. So you're criticizing the CIA for just doing their due diligence by making sure that they actually use the weapons we give them instead of selling them, often winding up facing back against them, you know, by a circuitous route. So I think that's what you need to factor in also, Aaron, I'm not, not to criticize.

[Aaron Maté]

So the CIA stands for fiscal responsibility, basically.

[Unknown Speaker]

Fiscal responsibility. I mean, like, you know, when Your kid turns 15 and gets his or 16 and gets their driver's license, you don't just throw them the keys and say, hey, knock yourself out. You know, you want to drive with them, make sure they're going, you know, driving properly and not, you know, getting drunk and driving. You got to supervise.

[Aaron Maté]

Right?

[Unknown Speaker]

And I think if that is, I mean, I'm joking, of course, but that is an actual lesson of the early parts of this war, which is that a lot of the weaponry that we provided to Ukraine was just sold off to enrich the Ukrainian oligarchs. That's not your point.

[Aaron Maté]

I know, but here's another takeaway from the New York Times. Ultimately, the US Military and CIA were allowed to help with strikes into Russia. We were directly assisting, in fact, overseeing strikes, not just on Russian forces instead of Ukraine, but strikes into Russia. And, you know, looking back on it now, yet Russia practiced restraint. Imagine if Russia had decided to hit back at the same U.S. forces that were helping Ukraine strike into Russia. It would have been the World War Three that these officials feared. Russia thankfully restrained itself, but had they not, it would have been even more disastrous. And here's one of the key architects of this US Assistance policy of running the war from behind the scenes, General Christopher Cavoli. And watch him talk at a congressional hearing about the effectiveness of US Backed missile strikes by Ukraine at Russian forces.

[Malcolm Nance]

How effective have the long range missiles that we've allowed Ukrainians to shoot into Russia?

[Aaron Maté]

How effective has that been? Very. In all areas.

[Malcolm Nance]

Yeah, they've been extremely effective. Sir, I could go into this in.

[Aaron Maté]

In private session, but the United States.

[Malcolm Nance]

Makes some very good weaponry and the.

[Aaron Maté]

Ones we've donated have been very, very effective.

[Malcolm Nance]

In closed session, I'd be happy to talk to you about a few of.

[Aaron Maté]

The things they've done with it. Now, why is he so happy to go talk about this in closed session is because in public session he doesn't want to admit that he's the one running the war from behind the scenes. He's the one telling Ukraine what to strike, which Russian forces to hit. And that has to be kept in secret away from the public because if the public maybe knew that the US Was secretly running the war in Ukraine, they might have some feelings about it and might be objecting and that's why he had to talk about it in closed session.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I like that he said he's asked, you know, how effective have they been? And he says, very. And then the senator asks for clarification and he says, extremely so, you know, not, you know, I don't want to just leave it at very and let you draw your own conclusions. Also extremely effective. But what you were saying before about how the Russians and Putin have actually shown restraint. It seems like the waging of this war has been a steady process of pushing things as close as possible to World War 3 without getting over that. And Each those red lines that the Biden administration was establishing were also sort of red lines to see if is this going to get to World War Three?

[Aaron Maté]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, I guess we can get a little farther. I guess we can get a little farther. And it's like, just how much can we enrich our military contractor donors without us all, you know, without bringing about the extinction of humanity? And, you know, I think credit to them, they've done a pretty good job, Aaron. But the other thing is that the talking points about Putin are always that he's a madman. You know, he's this crazed Putin, he can't be. And he's the only sane one who has prevented this from becoming World War Three. That's correct. On Putin not being the way we describe him to the American people.

[Aaron Maté]

That's exactly right. While claiming that Putin is a madman, wants to take over Europe, the rest of the world, they've been relying on him to be restrained. Because as this article, the New York Times points out, it's not Russia that kept crossing its own red lines. It was the US that kept crossing its own red lines. We heard so much about Putin's red lines and how he hasn't enforced them. So therefore it's okay to keep sending weapons to Ukraine. Putin actually didn't set out red lines. The US Set out red lines. And one of the red lines for Biden was, we don't want to fight Russia directly. But they kept threatening it by moving over their own red lines, including because Biden initially said, we're not going to give Ukraine weapons that can strike into Russia. We're not going to give them these long range weapons. He crossed that every single time because he was so desperate to keep the proxy war going. And why we know now, they all admitted it, it was not even to help Ukraine. It was to weaken Russia. And so to weaken Russia, the Biden administration was willing to not only sacrifice Ukraine, but risk World War Three. And three years later, the New York Times finally comes out and admits it, thereby catching up with those of us who've been saying this from the very start.

[Unknown Speaker]

I know the New York Times reporters. One of their key sources is Jimmy Dore show three years ago. So they just watch old episodes and they're like, oh, this is interesting. You should write about this.

[Aaron Maté]

So Donald Trump has insisted that he will not be cutting benefits, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. But then you have Republican senators like Bill Cassidy saying stuff like this.

[Malcolm Nance]

Let's bring that approach not to just what Doge is doing, discretionary spending, but let's look at Medicare. Is there some way that we can cut Medicare so that it's shoot me. Reform Medicare so that benefits stay the same, but that is less expensive, more efficient?

[Aaron Maté]

I would say that there is, and that's where our opportunity lies. So that's a comment from Senator Bill Cassidy. He says, are there ways we can cut Medicare? Then he corrects himself, says reform Medicare. But he's confirming or speaking to the fears of many people who see Trump and his allies talking about reforming Medicare and what they hear is cutting Medicare. So let me bring in a longtime champion of Medicare for all, former Congressmember Dennis Kucinich. What do you make of Doge and Trump's talk about reforming Medicare while insisting he's not gonna cut people's benefits?

[Dennis Kucinich]

Well, you know, here's the problem with going into government and coming from a privileged position. I mean, if you can grow up where your families are very wealthy, that's great. But if that's the only experience you have in life and then you become a leader of the nation, you may not have an appropriate sympathy for how people struggle day to day, how healthcare expenses, even if people are covered by Medicare, are still very difficult for people to be able to meet. And even if you have health insurance, you're not Medicare eligible. The cost of health care is ruining a lot of families economic future. So any talk of reducing health care benefits, whether in terms of reducing Medicare or Medicaid, just shows that our leaders don't understand what people go through on a daily basis. If you understood how senior citizens depend on Social Security, how their savings are evaporated and their retirement or pensions were taken away by corporations who tanked a corporation and threw it into bankruptcy and put the pensioners at the back of the line. If you knew how tough people were having it, you'd never even come close to that. So I'm hopeful that there'll be increased understanding that Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security shouldn't be touched. Now, the question of is there fraud in government programs? Yes. Find fraud just about everywhere, public or private. You know, when I was mayor of Cleveland years ago, I was able to cut city spending by 10% in the first year without borrowing any money. By eliminating waste, fraud and abuse. Now, yeah, that exists, but you can't tell people you're going to cut their benefits. If you eliminate the waste, fraud and abuse, you have more money to give to people. Right? It's not less so, you know, for me, you know, personally, Aaron, I think we ought to have Medicare for all for real that everyone should be covered. It shouldn't be a privilege in a democratic society. Fundamental right. No one should have to worry about being sick. No one should have to work a lifetime and to find in their later years an illness causes them to lose everything they ever worked for. No one should have to divert their life's dream because of an illness at an early age. You know, the one thing that I heard Boris Johnson say years ago is how when somebody's sick in the UK because the NHS program, the nation gathers around the bedside of that person. What an image. The idea that we all care for each other, we need to go back to an America like that really cares where we really care for each other and I mean it's possible we could get there but right now with this is going on partisan ideologically, the idea of one nation is tough for people to be able to think about.

[Jimmy Dore]

Hey, become a premium member. Go to jimmy dorecomedy.com, sign up. It's the most affordable premium program in the business. All the voices performed today are by the one and only, the inimitable Mike McRae. He can be found at mikemcrae.com.

[Aaron Maté]

That'S.

[Jimmy Dore]

It for this week. You be the best you can be and I'll keep being me.

[Kurt Metzger]

Freak out.

[Malcolm Nance]

Don't freak out.

[Aaron Maté]

Don't freak out.

[Malcolm Nance]

Don't freak out. Don't freak out.

[Jimmy Dore]

Don't freak out.

[Aaron Maté]

Freak out.

[Jimmy Dore]

Do not freak out.

[Malcolm Nance]

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[Jimmy Dore]

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[Malcolm Nance]

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