Podcast
The Westminster Tradition
Hosted by The Westminster Tradition · EN
Unpacking lessons for the public service, starting with the Robodebt Royal Commission.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate.
Ultimately the Australian Government was forced to pay $1.8bn back to more than 470,000 Australians.
In this podcast we dive deep into public policy failures like Robodebt and the British Post Office scandal - how they start, why they're hard to stop, and the public service lessons we shouldn't forget.
18episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Fight club: things we never agree on
2w ago00:56:37Tap to summarizeInspired by the new podcast The Curiosity Shop, Alison, Danielle and Caroline take on the things they might never agree on — welcome to TWT Fight Club. In the ring: Do academic and conceptual frameworks actually help public servants do their jobs, or are they a privilege that most people simply don't have time for?Central agencies: great idea, but are they delivering? The trio debates whether they're connectors and coordinators — or arrogant secret-keepers who love a template.Delivery units get their moment in the ring too, with strong views on the difference between a compliance-heavy traffic light report and genuine brokerage between agencies.And the big one: would they go back to the public service? Caroline misses it in her bones, Danielle has a very petty list of reasons why probably not, and Alison is delighted to never write another bona fide.Referenced in this episode: James Plunkett, The Centre is from Mars, the Edges are from Venus: https://medium.com/@jamestplunkett/the-centre-is-from-mars-the-edges-are-from-venus-abca86f66bb8 This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Smart dissent: middle management
4w ago00:53:54Tap to summarizeA new hypothetical scenario, this time from the big smoosh of middle management.Imagine if... your Minister has announced a 15-day processing target, your team is already drowning, there's no cutting corners, and there's no extra resourcing. In this episode, Alison, Danielle and Caroline unpack the impossible balancing act of middle management in high-pressure public sector environments: communicating risk upward without sounding obstructive, keeping teams together during the crunch, and swallowing 'I told you so'.The conversation explores:How to communicate nuance and operational complexity to time-poor senior executivesThe difference between raising risks and sounding like “Henny Penny”Why storytelling is often more effective than spreadsheets when escalating concernsThe practical levers managers can pull during workload surges, from triage to temporary staffingThe dangers of “go faster mania” and performance targets detached from operational realityThe swallowed “I told you so” — and how after-action reviews can turn frustration into learningWhy being right is not enough, and why building a clear record mattersHow to be transparent with teams during periods of sustained pressure and uncertaintyThis podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Seen and not heard
May 1100:55:55Tap to summarizeHow public can public servants be in the social media age? Is having a LinkedIn account a professional necessity, or a professional risk?In this episode, Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the history, rules and realities of what public servants can say, post, share and support publicly. From LinkedIn humblebrags and anonymous Twitter accounts, to global political conflicts, the conversation explores how Westminster principles of neutrality collide with modern digital life.Mentioned in this episode: APSC 'Social media: Guidance for Australian Public Service Employees and Agencies': https://www.apsc.gov.au/aps-values/social-media-guidance-australian-public-service-employees-and-agenciesBlack swans – “The city that ten beers built” If You’re Listening. ABC Listen. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/if-youre-listening/the-city-that-ten-beers-built/106245972John Menadue — Are Australian public servants condemned to be silent members of society?: https://johnmenadue.com/post/2024/11/are-australian-public-servants-condemned-to-be-silent-members-of-society-ready/Comcare v Banerji [2019] HCA 23: https://www.hcourt.gov.au/cases-and-judgments/cases/decided/case-c122018This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Kylie Kilgour, Deputy Commissioner at the NACC: On Robodebt
Apr 2701:10:33Tap to summarizeIn her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance to go beyond the written report with candid reflections on the conditions that led to one of most significant failures of public administration in Australia, and the complexities of the accountability process. In this episode, we cover:the four key contributing factors to serious corrupt conduct: ignorance of the law, failure to work with lawyers, rushed timelines and senior pressure why being “polite and collegiate” can fail - and the risks of not making concerns unmistakably clearhow austerity, budget cycles and unrealistic deadlines distort judgement and behaviourthe role of toxic culture, including bullying, fear of speaking up, and the myth of untouchable senior leadersthe difference between serious maladministration and corrupt conduct - and why some high-profile referrals did not meet the legal threshold for corrupt conductwhat Robodebt reveals about missed opportunities to intervene - and the consequences of not listeningThe NACC's Guide to Ethical Decision-Making: https://www.nacc.gov.au/research-and-guides#ethical-decision-making-a-guideOperation Myrtleford Report: https://www.nacc.gov.au/investigation-reports-and-case-studies#operation-myrtlefordGet in touch with the NACC: https://www.nacc.gov.au/about-nacc/contact-usFurther NACC resources: What is corrupt conduct?What is serious or systemic corrupt conduct?Voluntary referrals: a guideThis podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Robodebt: Reflections on the NACC's Findings
Apr 1301:00:11Tap to summarizeOn 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not. Caroline, Alison and Danielle discuss three things: the "low level" code of conduct failures that created the toxic soil in which corrupt conduct could grow; the detail of the NACC's findings on the Robodebt Six; and the harder, unresolved question of whether individual accountability processes can ever be adequate for system failure with Robodebt's scale of human harm.Referenced in this episode:Jenny Miller, The Saturday Paper https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2026/03/21/robodebt-six-they-continue-i-am-left-with-urn-containing-the-ashes-myRick Morton, Cut Through podcast (Crikey) https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/cut-through/id1616953809?i=1000756172293 NACC, findings on Robodebt referrals, 11 March 2025 https://www.nacc.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2026-03/Operation%20Myrtleford%20Investigation%20Report.pdf Commissioner Holmes, Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme — sealed section https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Tabled_Documents/15488This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Mad Cow Disease part 4 - unblocking the beef chain
Mar 3000:42:46Tap to summarizeIn our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant market interventions and public perception against actual transmission data. In this episode:What decision making looks like under radical uncertainty, where its government's job to keep things running.The massive supply chain repercussions of the beef ban, and how much expertise policymakers actually need when making interventions.Whether the public has a realistic understanding of what governments can achieve in a crisis and whether governments can still have an honest conversation about trade offs for the public good.Why sensing the public mood is not “political”, but a critical source of information about whether policy is working or failing.Whether more information and transparency actually build confidence in a democratised media environment, including social media and large language models.Where actual transmission ended up, and how it compares with other risk calculations and personal mitigations. What all of this means for modern public servants operating in systems where uncertainty is the norm, not the exception.Insiders, Chris Bowen - Energy Minister (22/3/2026)https://iview.abc.net.au/show/insiders?utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_sharedThe Rest Is History podcast - Revolution In Iran | Fall of the Shah (Part 1) https://therestishistory.com/episodes/fall-of-the-shah-part-1Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Talebhttps://www.penguin.com.au/books/fooled-by-randomness-9780141031484This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →Mad Cow Disease part 3 - too much on Monday, too little on Thursday
Mar 1600:40:00Tap to summarizeIt’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in chaotic quasi-cabinet groups sometimes twice a day.In this episode we discuss:How to brief best in the chaos of things changing by the hour Whether policy should change when the risk hasn't changed, but risk perception has. The policy process where decisions are not weighed but whittled down by what’s acceptable to industry and public Why what seemed like an extreme policy response on Monday suddenly felt inadequate by ThursdayWhether scenario planning is useful when public sentiment in unpredictable and irrationalWhy in a crisis it is better to stop complaining about constantly changing decisions and simply focus on being usefulHow the EU's hardline and indefinite export ban politically wedged the UKThe difficulty of restoring public confidence when there is no clear wrongdoing to find and fix, and the crisis is largely the product of uncertaintyThe realities of how much the contemporary populace can realistically sustain engagement with multiple complex risks at onceNew Species of Trouble by Kai Eriksonhttps://www.amazon.com.au/New-Species-Trouble-Experience-Disasters/dp/0393313190 Any Ordinary Day - Leigh Sales https://www.penguin.com.au/books/any-ordinary-day-9781760893637This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →What Makes a Bloody Good Policy Officer?
Mar 201:06:44Tap to summarizeFew people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'In this episode we catch up with Salli about:Her one-word definition of policy.What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed. Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.The importance of an orientation to serving the community.Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.The importance of letting people say their bit. Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →'Mad Cow Disease' part 2 - a bogus professor and a dead cat
Feb 1600:33:13Tap to summarizePart 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode, the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up. What we cover: The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic catsThe danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more. The political landscape of EU export pressure, an era of deregulation, and expensive subsidiesFrom variable, localised enforcement to a centralised Meat Hygiene Service. Where we end up by late 1995 – no human cases yet, but the MHS has a horrifying revelation that undermines trust in the controls. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →'Mad Cow Disease' part 1 - a crisis without a crime
Feb 200:32:05Tap to summarizeWe kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote.Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led. Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences. Who really decides when portfolios collide, and who pays. Why Pedigree pet food had a surprising influence on the risk ‘appetite’Whether there is the authorising environment to act beyond the scientific advice.Spoiler alert: “over reacting” and “under reacting” are not opposites, they overlap. The brilliant podcast, ‘The Cows are Mad’ by BBC.https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rrhy/episodes/playerThe West Wing: Season 3, episode 9 (featuring Mad Cow disease).https://youtu.be/ouBr3F2qWMI?si=uecMkFaQFnMGVvyL&t=220This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!
Transcribe →