Dr. Orna On The Biggest Mistake Couples Make

Summary

Podcast Summary: U Up? — Dr. Orna On The Biggest Mistake Couples Make

Podcast: U Up? by Betches Media
Episode: Dr. Orna On The Biggest Mistake Couples Make
Date: May 22, 2026
Hosts: Jordana Abraham & Jared Freid
Guest: Dr. Orna Guralnik, renowned psychoanalyst and host of Showtime’s Couples Therapy

---

Overview

In this special “Friday Feels” episode, Jordana and Jared are joined by Dr. Orna Guralnik, the acclaimed therapist from Showtime’s Couples Therapy. They discuss Dr. Orna’s career, the ethics and nuances of televised therapy, and her philosophy on what makes relationships thrive—or fail. The conversation covers everything from tips for first dates to the pitfalls of communication, and includes roleplay and advice for navigating couples therapy. Dr. Orna shares her insights on embracing differences, the timing of therapy, and how to approach conflict without falling into common traps like “agree to disagree.”

---

Dr. Orna’s Background & Approach to Therapy

[01:12–04:44]

• Dr. Orna Guralnik is a psychoanalyst with decades of experience in both individual and couples therapy.
• She recently submitted her new book focused on relationships.
• Her professional boundary: she avoids disclosing personal details to patients, both on the show and in private practice.
  • Quote: “The idea is to allow my patients…to not have my personal details on their mind when they’re exploring their own stuff. It’s to free up some space for people to just do their own work.” —Dr. Orna [03:38]
• Going on TV as a therapist posed significant challenges for her private practice clients, who suddenly had to "share" their therapist with the world.

[06:44–07:42]

• Dr. Orna did not seek out television but was approached by the show’s directors due to her academic reputation.
• The success of Couples Therapy was an unexpected “big experiment” that resulted in a surprisingly positive global reception.

---

Ethics of Therapy on TV & Online

[09:18–12:58]

• Hosting a real couples therapy show required unique ethical frameworks, as confidentiality typically prohibits such disclosures.
• Once participants sign up for the show, they “give up” traditional privacy.
• Participants mostly receive support, but some experience “hate threads” and online villainization.
  • Quote: “People have this tendency to just grab onto a villain… and kind of unleash a lot of their stuff.” —Dr. Orna [11:16]
• She notes that in her own practice, online exposure is not a big concern among her patients regarding their love lives.

---

Can You Predict if a Couple Will Make It?

[13:15–14:55]

• Dr. Orna can’t usually tell from the first session if a couple will stay together. Early communication complaints often mask deeper issues.
• Some signs (like entrenched vindictiveness) are worrying, but most couples come in with a will to improve, indicating self-selection.
  • Quote: “If I can’t get them to connect to a wish to be in a better place themselves…then it seems a little hopeless. But most people don’t want to stay in that space.” —Dr. Orna [13:47]

---

Dating Advice: Authenticity Over Performance

[17:19–19:50]

• Dr. Orna advises daters to avoid performing or seeking a list of attributes; instead, focus on their authentic reaction to the other person.
  • Quote: “Bring your best self, your true self, and try to sense what it’s like for your particular self to be spending time with that particular person, meaning to look for something that is quite authentic.” —Dr. Orna [18:08]
• Sample First Date Question: “Tell me about your day.” The goal is to invite real conversation.

---

The Therapist’s Role in Couples Therapy

[20:02–22:12]

• In couples therapy, Dr. Orna views the relationship itself as her “patient,” not either individual.
  • She avoids picking sides, instead helping the dynamic improve.
  • Loud or complaining partners are often asked to “lower the volume” so the quieter partner can be heard.
• TV-style dramatic storm-outs are rare; most disagreements are worked through productively.

---

Therapy as an Ongoing Resource—not a One-Time Fix

[22:12–28:44]

• Many clients worry therapy will never end or uncover endless flaws. Dr. Orna reframes therapy as a safe space:
  • Quote: “Ultimately what happens in therapy…you don’t get shamed…you find out what’s bothering you and how to make things better.” —Dr. Orna [24:12]
• Therapy’s duration varies; it’s healthy to view it as a tool to use periodically, not a life sentence:
  • Quote: “To me… this is a tool you have in your back pocket—it doesn’t have to ever be over. If there’s an impasse, you can go back [to therapy].” —Jordana [28:15]

---

The Single Biggest Mistake Couples Make: Trying to Change Each Other

[25:57–27:20]

• Dr. Orna’s “no running at the pool” advice for moving in together: Respect and make space for your partner’s differences.
  • Quote: “What really helps relationships thrive is respect for the other person’s difference. You’ve got to accept that you’re living with another person and try as much as possible to respect that.” —Dr. Orna [25:57]
• The most common pitfall? Each tries to make the other more like themselves, which causes friction and disappointment.

---

Communication Pitfalls: “Agree to Disagree” & “It Is What It Is”

[30:16–38:52]

• Dr. Orna dislikes both phrases, seeing them as communication shutdowns:
  • Quote: “Often when people say ‘agree to disagree,’ they’re just exhausted from trying to change the other person… It’s a way to stop whatever is happening. It’s not a real thing.” —Dr. Orna [31:16]
• When a partner offers “agree to disagree,” she suggests asking: “What is it you agree with? What do you understand about what I’m saying?”
• Conflict about seemingly minor issues (like food choices) often points toward deeper questions of power and relationship contract.

---

When Is the Right Time to Start (or Avoid) Couples Therapy?

[39:19–42:04]

• Too Early? “Three months in, there’s no relationship yet—it’s too early. It seems more a matter of insecurity.”
• Too Late? Prolonged misery and entrenched bitterness can mean the relationship is already lost.
• The sweet spot: “Once there’s a real pattern that you’ve tried to make your way out of and can’t. Not everyone needs therapy…but if you’re stuck, it’s a good time.”

---

Rethinking Couples Therapy: Not Just Maintenance, but Expansion

[44:11–48:01]

• Dr. Orna resists analogies of therapy as “maintenance,” “the gym,” or “filters”—she sees it as an expansive, creative, and growth-oriented journey.
  • Quote: “It’s not maintenance. It’s an expansion. It’s like you’re going on a voyage.” —Dr. Orna [47:20]
• Therapy can elevate a relationship, and shouldn’t be stigmatized as a last resort.

---

Rapid-Fire “Go or No” Dating Decisions

[49:45–50:42]

• If you’re attracted but can’t stand their career? “Go. Attraction is a lot.”
• If you’re not attracted but they’re “very nice”? “Give it a small chance. I would go for one more date.”
• Your “type” can change as you get to know someone; don’t box yourself in.

---

Notable Quotes & Insights

• The Therapist’s Boundaries:
  • "Refraining from indulging with your personal life is a very important aspect of [therapy].” —Dr. Orna [04:44]
• Couples’ Number One Pitfall:
  • “The number one thing that goes on? People come to me to try to make their partners more like them.” —Dr. Orna [27:16]
• On Maintenance vs. Expansion:
  • “I don’t like that analogy…It’s not maintenance. It’s an expansion…You’re going on a voyage.” —Dr. Orna [47:20]
• Love Can Dry Out:
  • “Sometimes it’s too late when too much bitterness and misery has accumulated… The love can dry out, which is very sad.” —Dr. Orna [42:00]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:12] — Dr. Orna’s background & boundary-setting
• [06:44] — Joining Couples Therapy, show origins
• [09:18] — Ethics of televised therapy
• [13:15] — Can you spot relationship "success" early?
• [17:19] — Dating advice: authenticity vs. performance
• [25:57] — The “biggest mistake” couples make: intolerance of difference
• [30:16] — Communication catchphrases and conflict roleplay
• [39:19] — When is it too early/late for couples therapy?
• [44:11] — Therapy as growth, not just maintenance
• [49:45] — “Go or No”: rapid dating advice

---

Final Thoughts

This episode blends actionable relationship wisdom with humor and honest, vulnerable conversation. Dr. Orna emphasizes that thriving relationships are built on respect for difference, authentic engagement, and the courage to explore conflict—not avoidance. Therapy is framed as a journey of growth, not a mark of failure. Whether single, dating, or long-married, listeners come away with new language and perspective for modern love.

Transcript

[Jordana Abraham]

So good, so good, so good.

[Nordstrom Rack Announcer]

Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love, like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame and Free People. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack foreign.

[Jordana Abraham]

Hello, and welcome back to the Friday Feels episode of the UF podcast. I'm Jordana Abraham.

[Jared Freid]

And I am Jared Freed. It is so good to be back here with you, Jordana, but it is especially good because we have a very special guest today. They are the. I. I would call you the host, but also the. The couples therapist on the show Couples Therapy. And it's coming out to showtime the new season on May 15, and a real get for us. We've been trying forever. We're so happy to have her. Dr. Orna Goralnik, thank you for coming on the show.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Cool. Thank you for inviting me.

[Jared Freid]

It's a pleasure. Thank you for doing this. How are you today? What's going on? What goes on in Dr. Orna's life?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Today's a good day. Today is a good day. Yesterday was Mother's Day, which was really fun.

[Jared Freid]

Amazing.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I also handed in the final version of my book yesterday.

[Jared Freid]

That's a bigger day than Mother's Day, I gotta say.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. Having a big day with. That's a big day.

[Jared Freid]

You're on a show with a couple of people who've written books, and that's a stressful time. Writing a book.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, it was an intense two years. Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

And the. The book is, like, about, like, your experience in being a couple's therapist.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's a book about relationships, about couples. The whole thing that we do, like, coupling up.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. And so obviously you're the. The couple's therapist on the show Couples Therapy. But, like, how, like, how long have you been a therapist? Like, what's your. What's your background? What made you want to become a. A therapist? Did you. Do you only do couples or do you do individual, too? Like, I want to know the whole.

[Jared Freid]

And explain to us how much harder it is to write a book than it is to be a mother.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Any other questions? Should I answer it all in one sentence under.

[Jordana Abraham]

Under 30 seconds?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No, I'm a therapist. I'm a psychoanalyst, so I see individual patients in analysis, and I also see couples. And I've been a therapist for many years, probably longer than the two of you have been. Alive.

[Jared Freid]

You're 85 years old.

[Jordana Abraham]

Jared's pretty old.

[Jared Freid]

Holy. I, I, how old are you, Jared? I'm 65. No, I, I'm 41.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I've been working for a long time.

[Jordana Abraham]

Oh, wow.

[Jared Freid]

I mean, if, I mean, you brought it up. I don't, I hope this is how old are you, doctor? Or you look great.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I'm 62.

[Jared Freid]

You're 62?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

62 and rocking.

[Jared Freid]

Unbelievable. You don't get personal. You know, that's something that, that's pretty personal. That's very personal. Is your age. But I'm saying generally though, like, you don't you have a kind of a policy? Why is, is that, what's the reason for the policy?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

First of all, is that like a well known thing now in the industry?

[Jared Freid]

No, it's a, it was in our notes. I didn't know it until now and I was like, holy shit, that's good. Because I just, I just attack someone for coming on our show and having a dating podcast and not reve what they did for work. And I was like, it feels different to have a dating podcast where you're getting personal and not reveal what you do for work than it is to be a couples therapist and say, I'm not going to talk about my marriage. I, I can, I can almost understand that.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jared Freid]

But I wanted to hear what you had to say about it.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I mean, it's interesting. I had to go through a very long process of like, convincing the directors of the pro of the series for them to understand why it's important for me not to be like, a person with a lot of personality and personal details on the show. The idea is basically to allow my patients, whether it's on the show or my actual patients in my private practice to like, have the freedom to not have to worry about me, not have to have my personal details on their mind when they're exploring their own stuff. It's basically to free up some space for people to just do their own work. You know, when you know a lot of details about another person, you start thinking about them, caring about them, being concerned. I want people to feel free to just, like, do what they need to do and for me to be their therapist. And refraining from kind of indulging with your personal life is a very important aspect of it.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay. And then, so do, like, is, is it strange for your, your clients, I guess, patience. Is it strange for your patients to kind of like be able to see you on TV while also, you know, like, the ones who aren't on the show.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I think for my private practice patients, me being suddenly, like, a therapist on tv, it's difficult. They. They're probably paying the biggest price for me having decided to do this.

[Jared Freid]

What type of price?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I don't know if you guys have been in therapy, but you like to think of your therapist as your person, not like you're sharing them with a million other people and with, you know, you don't like your mom watching your therapist on TV and making comments. It's. It's a lot of. They have to share me.

[Jordana Abraham]

That's a good point. Yeah. Yep.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Not great.

[Jordana Abraham]

You're, like, under the illusion that it's like, almost that it's yours, that right Person is yours.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I mean, in a way, the therapist is yours, but it kind of rubs your face in the fact that the therapist has more going on.

[Jordana Abraham]

Totally true. I can. Now that you're saying that, I can imagine that must be. I've been in therapy for, like, 10 years, and I like to think of myself as my therapist's favorite patient.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Of course. And you probably are, I'm sure.

[Jordana Abraham]

I do say so myself.

[Jared Freid]

Are you surprised by the feedback that you get for the therapy that gets posted and. And kind of goes wild on TikTok? Because that's how I'm aware of you. The show always looks like I gotta watch that show. Like, it's a great. What they. What. Whatever TikToks are doing. And I know Jordana's. Jordana's a huge fan of the show. And I. I admittedly, I'm. I just see your. Your TikToks, like, just come up like crazy, and I'm always drawn in. And your demeanor is a big part of that. Like, it's just you're. You're kind of letting these people go a little bit, which is not a normal thing, as I don't let you go. But, like, were you surprised?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, definitely. I was surprised by. I mean, I'm not aware of the whole TikTok world. I don't go on TikTok, and I don't know what's going on there with me being on TikTok. But in terms of the success of the show, we've all been, like, very happily surprised. It was a big experiment launching this show. Like, both an experiment in terms of whether it's going to work at all in terms of therapy, whether people are going to feel comfortable enough to really go through the process of therapy knowing that they're being recorded, but then how the world is gonna see it. And accept it. And it was like a big surprise early on how, how much love and gratitude we got. Now it's, we're almost a decade in, so I'm kind of spoiled. I'm used to it. But we do, we get a lot of love and gratitude from all over the world. It's pretty awesome. I mean, especially nowadays when it's like, you know, it's hard to be doing something good in this world. It's a good feeling.

[Jordana Abraham]

How did you get involved with, like, the project and the show? Was it your, like, was it your idea? How did.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No, no, no, no. It was Josh and Elise's idea. Josh Krigman and Elise Steinberg, they, the directors and the EPs, they've been cooking this idea for a while and they reached out to me. I'm, I'm an academic. I teach at my psychoanalytic institute. And they found me through my institute and reached out to me there. And, I mean, first it seemed kind of like, way out there and like, I don't know, but they, I just really hit it off with them. They're just such great people. So I just decided to take the leap of faith with them and turned out so awesome.

[Jared Freid]

Probably the best way to get found. You know what I mean? I, I, I don't, I, I don't think you want a therapist who's auditioning to do a show.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I, Right, right, right.

[Jordana Abraham]

Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of the show. I think I started watching Pre pandemic in, like, 2019, and then, you know, watching the Pandemic ones also was like, its own interesting little, like, moment in time. But what is like, is, I always wonder this because, you know, sometimes I, I watch a lot of reality tv, and sometimes the couple in reality TV is going to a therapist and it's on camera. And I'm always wondering, like, what are the ethics? Because it is such an intimate, personal thing. Like, what are the ethics of airing an actual couple's session? Like, how does that play into it?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's a really good question because generally the ethics of my profession is, are I do not ever disclose anything about my work with patients, ever, except to my supervisors. But, like, it's like a very strict frame of confidentiality. Like, I don't get to talk to anyone about my patients. Like, you can't gossip. It's, it's, it's really important to keep privacy. Like, I'm a vault generally. But when people sign up to do something, like to participate in a film, then they give up on all of that, it changes the whole frame of the therapy, which is one of the things I wasn't sure would work.

[Jordana Abraham]

Do you get worried about, like, the, the patients that you're seeing that are on tv, like, their mental health, if people get like, come after them on Tik Tok or something or like. Yeah, you know, things like that. Because there's definitely, I mean, I've, especially from watching season one, I feel like there's definitely like a villain, even if that's not, you know, the traditional sense.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Right. No, people, we've had situations. I mean, most people, most of the participants get a huge amount of love from the world just for being willing to put themselves out there and people really identify with them. But once in a while, you know, people have this tendency to want a villain. And if people don't watch the whole, the whole season, if they just get stuck on the beginning of a season, they might decide, oh, I'm going to hate on this person. I love hating on people. And that gets difficult for people. They, they, they can, I mean, they, I, I know from couples that have reached out to us that they get suddenly like a thread of hate from the audience. And that's awful. I mean, I've actually gone on one of these, like Reddits or something, one of those. I've gone on there to try to defend some of my participants just because it's just, just so ridiculous, this online world. And people have this tendency, you probably know that way better than I do, but people have this tendency to just grab onto a villain, create a villain and kind of unleash a lot of their stuff.

[Jared Freid]

Right. I mean, the people on Reddit probably totally understood and took your feedback nicely and just moved on.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, they have.

[Jared Freid]

Yeah. Okay, well, that was kind of a question. I was thinking about, you know, the show being on for so long and then seeing kind of the tick tock, tick tock, ification of things. I know as a guy dating that that is something even, even though I live publicly and I have a podcast and put my life out there. Do you find that that is something that a lot, I would say, a lot of men are kind of fearful of in the relationship world that like, there's this outlet for people to just go on and tell a story on from one side. And is that something you've noticed growing over the years, this like, paranoia maybe, that goes on for people in relationships?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Meaning for what kind of life online it's going to take?

[Jared Freid]

What. Yeah, what kind of. Where it could go online where the information could go, no, it's not.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No, no, that's not been a thing.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

But I, I don't, I guess that's. My patients are not, I don't know, I don't live in that world and somehow my patients don't seem to be living in that world. I mean there are, there are other things where the online world, like, you know, like Israel, Palestine and all of that stuff. I mean that's intense for a lot of people, but not stuff that's related to their love life. Interesting.

[Jordana Abraham]

So like, you know, you've been doing this, I guess more than Jared's age, which is 41 years.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

So have. I haven't been doing that more than 41 years, but I've been doing it for. All right.

[Jordana Abraham]

Something close.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Something, something in that range.

[Jordana Abraham]

Something close to there.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

So can you tell from the first couple times or first time speaking to a couple if they're going to make it or not? Like, is there any kind of like huge thing where it's like, when I see this, I know it's just not working?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Not from the first time, no. I mean, rarely. I mean, sometimes there's like, I mean there can be such a gap in what people want from a relationship that it looks, you know, it doesn't look great. But usually it takes me quite some time to understand what a couple is dealing with and what. I mean, they come in with one. I mean, usually people come in and they say they have trouble communicating. That's what everyone says, but you never know what that really means. And it takes me quite a while to understand what the couple is really dealing with because they don't even know. So I don't know early on. I mean, what I mean sometimes when couples come in, in a very toxic situation like where they're really hating on each other and if I can't get them to connect to a wish to be in a better place themselves, like a wish to have like a more benevolent attitude. If they're really kind of glued into vindictiveness, then it seems a little hopeless. But most people don't want to stay in that space.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. And I would imagine most people were like, that's the case. What the per. One of the people would not even be willing to go to couples therapy. I feel like the people who, who, who agree to go are probably somewhat more open minded.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Self selection.

[Jordana Abraham]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

Skims is genuinely one of those brands I will never stop talking about. The way they just get fit and fabric is unlike anything else out there and they keep Raising the bar. Their new cotton collection is the latest proof of that and honestly, it might be my new favorite thing they've ever made. I love Skims. I've been trying their new underwear collection and it is so, so, so comfortable. Having comfortable underwear is like the number one thing because you're in it all day and if you're like adjusting at it or if it's kind of like pulling at you, it really just ruins your ability to focus on anything else you're doing. So to me, doing well at work, weirdly, strangely tied back to how comfortable my underwear is. And Skims has the best, softest, and most utilitarian underwear. It's like great. They have kinds for every different shape and they're all serving a specific purpose and no matter what they're doing, you're looking good in them. But you're also really, really comfortable, which is a super hard combination. I also have their cotton bras which are so, so, so comfy. And you know, I also love knowing where everything is and their bras are perfect for that. They make me feel like I can go about my day and not have to think about my underwear and bras, which is honestly the whole point. Shop everyday cotton and all my favorite bras and [e-mail] after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and make sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

[Prime Originals Announcer]

Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer on All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit RedBull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer. This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus L every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Jared Freid]

We deal a lot with people who want to be in a relationship. We have a lot of people that are looking, you know, this is a modern dating taking the technology and dating and kind of how those two relate to each other. And there's a lot of people just sitting at home. I want to find someone you know, is there, is there something you wish people went into a first date thinking about or acknowledging or looking for, Asking about what, you know, looking for. You know what? Because I think people are looking for kind of tools, you know, when they go into a first date now, because they don't want to. They don't want to make the wrong move. And is there something that you, you would think of for people to, like, consider when they go on a first date with someone they're meeting from wherever?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I think one of the issues that I work with my patients on when they're in that kind of phase of dating, people often come into it either with this idea that they're. The purpose of the date is for them to perform something to perform set of the, the set of attributes that will make them gamable. And they, they don't go into it actually trying to get a sense of what they're feeling and what their experience is with the other person. You know, to me, like, what people should be doing when they're dating is seeing how they, what the chemistry is like, what's. What's the interaction actually like, and bring their best self, their true self, and try to sense what it's like for their particular self to be spending time with that particular person, meaning to look for something that is quite authentic. I mean, it's hard when you don't know someone, but to try to really get a sense of what's truly going on rather than putting like, a set of attributes or seeking a set of attributes in another. Right. To try to be authentic.

[Jared Freid]

What's a good question to ask someone if you're maybe looking to be authentic?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It could be really anything. It could be anything. Like, anything from, like, you know, you started our interview with, like, what's, what's today like for you?

[Jared Freid]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

That's a great question to ask. I mean, it could go anywhere. Tell me about your day. Anything, but anything that will invite the person to really talk about what's really going on for them and who they are rather than a set of attributes. And a set of attributes, do they match?

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. Is it hard for you when you're, when you're sort of engaging in like a couple's therapy, if you kind of. Do you have a feeling like, I kind of agree with this person, but you can't really say it.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Rarely. Rarely. Because, I mean, it can happen. But most of the time, you know, the, the difference between treating an individual and treating a couple is my patient. When I see a couple, my patient is the relationship it's not the individuals, which is. I don't know if it makes sense, but it's a very different orientation.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. You're like, advocating for the relationship, not for, like a side.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I'm not. Not for one or the other. It's like the. Each individual is just like a function it to the patient. That is the relationship.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

So I don't. It doesn't. I don't. It might seem sometimes like I'm siding with one, but I'm siding with a relationship. I'm there to help the relationship get better.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. And do you get like those classic TV tropes of, like, one of the people storming out, being like, the therapist is, you guys are ganging up on me, or does that not really happen?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It doesn't happen. I mean, I know I can tell sometimes it doesn't happen so much on the series, but in my private practice, I can tell sometimes when one person feels like I'm not siding with them or like, I don't like them, but it's usually kind of a temporary groove in the process, and then it goes back. I mean, if people really feel like I don't like them, it's not going to work.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You don't want to be in. In a therapeutic situation where you feel like your therapist doesn't like you. That is not a good space, I'm sure.

[Jordana Abraham]

Especially like, with a couple, because you're kind of like, why would I go somewhere just to get, you know, attacked in. In their mind.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I mean, there is this funny situation with couples. One of the typical situations that couples present with is that one is sort of louder than the other, or one is the complainer and the other is the defender.

[Jordana Abraham]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

There's this kind of classic distribution. And sometimes, unfortunately, the louder one, the one that complains, is the first person that I have to put a lot of pressure on to. To lower the volume so that the other person can come forth. So they often can feel a little bit like, oh, the pressure's on me. What about the other one? But I typically explain to them that that's what's going on.

[Jared Freid]

Do you ever sit with a couple and you're over months or whatever years are. When did you ever look at them and go, you guys, you're done. Enjoy your life together. Like, is there ever. Yeah, how does.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Totally, you're done.

[Jordana Abraham]

Like, you're done. Like you're done with therapy, not like you're done as a couple.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You're saying, no, you're done with me.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay?

[Jared Freid]

You're done with me.

[Jordana Abraham]

You're free.

[Jared Freid]

Now go enjoy each other's life. Go enjoy each other. How long does that take? I mean, I, I know that's, you know, like what.

[Jordana Abraham]

I'm just saying, like, that's such a male question. I don't want to gender it, but that sounds like, I feel like that's very male to be like, how many do I need to just finish?

[Jared Freid]

Well, that's the perfect.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yes. It's top of the mountain.

[Jared Freid]

I would assume that a lot of men going in, if they're, you know, pulled into this, I don't know what the, you know, the numbers are for you. You know, the, the split between who's pulling who in. You know, when it's a hetero couple, like, I don't know if there's a difference.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No, no difference.

[Jared Freid]

No difference.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Sometimes it's the men, sometimes the women. It's not.

[Jared Freid]

Then I would assume that the person getting pulled in, whoever that may be, might be like, well, when does this. How I would assume the, the, the. What they're worried about is that it's a never ending process where all you're gonna find out is, you know, one hole leads to another hole leads to another hole leads to, you know, let me just go down this thing that tells me how fucked up you are.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yes. People are afraid of that.

[Jared Freid]

Yeah. How do you talk to someone like that and let them know that there is maybe something, a light at the

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

end of the tunnel very openly? I mean, I understand those kind of fears that people, I talk about it explicitly.

[Jared Freid]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

And I, I get people to, to speak about their anxieties. And I share honestly my experience. When you're afraid of therapy because you're avoiding stuff, it's gonna, it's gonna bite you at the end. Whether you're in therapy or not. It's gonna show up. So you might as well tackle it. And I explained to people that the, the ultimately what happens in therapy is not like, you don't get shamed. You don't like, find out, oh, how up you are. You find out like, what's bothering you and how do I make things better? It's not like a process of condemning people, it's a process of helping people. And generally that's what happens. People suddenly realize, oh, I'm actually their ally. I'm not there to like, judge them or shame them.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Jared Freid]

I think, you know, probably a lot of, you know, my fear with any relationship I would get into would be not, not that I understand you Know, all you hear is, you know, relationships are hard. They're difficult. I guess, like, a lot of the things that I would want to know from someone, you know, from you, Dr. Orna, would be like, you know, when you lifeguard, they say you want to do a lot of preventative lifeguarding. You don't want to have to save someone in the pool. Like, I don't want to end up at Dr. Orna with my girlfriend or my wife. You know, Like, I. I want the no running at the pool advice. You know, Like, I want. Yeah, that's. And I would assume a lot of listeners now, they're like, maybe tiptoeing around, getting into something because they're like, well, what if I end up at Dr. Orna? Now I'm on camera crying, and I'm on tik tok having to read comments about how I, you know, I'm too ugly for my girlfriend. You know, Like, I don't want to do that. That's like a horrifying future.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

That's horrifying, right?

[Jared Freid]

What's your.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

What's.

[Jared Freid]

What is your. Like, Like, I. I'm moving in with my girlfriend. She's going to move in to my apartment, and it's going to become our apartment. Let me speak as. See, look at. I'm good at this.

[Jordana Abraham]

Your work here is done, right?

[Jared Freid]

There we go. What is your no running at the pool advice for me?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Good question. I like the analogy. No running at the pool.

[Jared Freid]

Thank you. I would say I'm a podcaster for a few years maybe, you know.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jared Freid]

Done this a few times.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I'm going to talk specifically now about, like, moving in with someone, please. Right. The general principle, what really helps relationships thrive, is respect for the other person's difference. If I had to say, like, my one principle that I really think of when I work with couples, and it's kind of the thread in my book as well, is like, just, you have to understand that relationships can bring you a lot of joy and happiness and satisfaction, but they really require you to accept the fact that you're living with another person and to try as much as possible to respect that. So make space for them in your apartment. Accept their idiosyncrasies, the way they want to move around and the way they want to spend their time. Like, just have a lot of mutual space and respect. I think that's the main. Don't run around the pool.

[Jared Freid]

Be aware they're gonna be different and be okay with the relationship.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You're gonna be different and give them the space, give them the respect. Like, remind yourself. That's what I love about them. I'm not gonna, like, try to make them like me.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. Is that why people. A lot of people come to you to try to make their partners more like them?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

That's probably the number one thing that goes on. Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

I mean, I guess when you have a disagreement with your partner, I think that's kind of like, usually at the. At the heart of it. Yeah. And I mean, you said, you know, you tell couples your work here is done. And I've, you know, I've. Candidly, I've. I've done a few couples sessions with my husband, you know, for various. And I think his sentiment has always has been a little similar to Jared's of, like, how many sessions do we need? Like, let's. Like, what's the. What's the time commitment here? But. And in my, you know, rebuttal to that was always, was kind of like, this is something that, like, this is a tool that we have in our back pocket. It doesn't have to be, like, over. So, like, if we have an issue, it's kind to me. It was kind of like we have this person to help us work through issues. And it doesn't have to ever be over. It doesn't have to be every week. But if we're ever having a misalignment on something, or if we're ever not able to communicate on something or it doesn't feel like you're hearing what I'm saying, we can go back to this person. It doesn't mean we're going to be.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

Seeing this person every week for 10 years. But to me, it's like just a great thing that you have with someone who's kind of already knows you. Knows, you know, knows what your deal is. You don't have to start from square one. And you could just have them over the years as someone to check in with or work. Work through things that you kind of seem to be at an impasse about.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I think that's a great way to use couples therapy. I mean, to go through a certain period of time where the therapist really gets to know you and you get to. You get to put language around your dynamic. And then once it gets easier to let go and stop therapy, and if something comes up, go back. And sometimes it's go back just for a few sessions and you're done. You just need kind of a reminder or a little tweak. That's a great way to use Couples therapy.

[Home Depot Announcer]

Make every get together chill this Memorial Day. Get up to an extra thousand dollars off select top brand appliances like LG plus, get free delivery at the Home Depot. Tackle pool towels and camp laundry with a large capacity washer. And host in style with the fridge serving craft ice, mini craft ice, cubed ice and crushed ice. Shop up appliance Savings now through June 3rd at the Home Depot. Offer valid May 14th through June 3rd US only. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more. See store online for details.

[Ross Announcer]

Girl, Winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio Sundress those sand you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

[Priceline Negotiator]

Bonjour, compadre.

[Jared Freid]

It's the Priceline negotiator.

[Priceline Negotiator]

How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Hold your horses. There's more. The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood vibe, star level and amenities like pools and spas and beachfronts and. Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me up.

[Jared Freid]

Price slide. Dr. Orna, how do you. You know, we were talking about just respecting each other's differences and it made me think of like, nothing makes me crazier than having a argument that ends with agree to disagree. How do you feel about the phrase agree to disagree? Because that makes me like, that makes my core hurt. Like, I shiver. What do you. But that's how I feel. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Well, often the problem is usually when people say agree to disagree, they're not really agreeing to disagreeing. They're just like exhausted from trying to change the other person. They don't really agree to disagree because, I mean, it's a little bit like, I also don't like that statement agree to disagree. And I don't like it is what it is. I mean, there are all these statements that people have when they're done thinking, when they can't just keep with the process. And it is maddening when you really agree to disagree. The disagreement doesn't end like that. It ends with, oh, I totally understand why you. Knowing you. Why you feel that way makes sense to me. I'm in a different place, and this is why I'm in a different place. But I understand where you're coming from. That is a real agree to disagree. But that's not what people usually mean. People usually mean, I'm exhausted trying to change you, and I'm just giving up.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right. Totally. I love that. I think that's very true because I. I agree that the sentiment behind it is real, but it's the people kind of weaponize it. I also. It's funny. My friends and I always had a running thing about men who use. It is what it is. As like, it is what it is.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

What is that?

[Jordana Abraham]

It's like a douchebag flag. I think, personally, what is this? Any guy you would go on a date with.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Stop thinking. Yes, let's stop thinking right now.

[Jared Freid]

What would you say to someone? Yeah, I guess. What is the if. If the weapon is. It is what it is. Or agree to disagree. What's your next statement to, like, kind of like, what. What's the kung fu reversal?

[Jordana Abraham]

What do you come back with?

[Jared Freid]

Yeah, what can you say to, like, put up the conversation? Yeah. Like, what's the move that kind of, like, takes that and.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Okay, I like that uses that. If someone says agree to disagree, I would ask, well, okay, can you tell me what you agree with?

[Jared Freid]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

What is it that you're agreeing with? What did you understand of what I'm saying that you agree to disagree with?

[Jordana Abraham]

Can I say that as someone who says agree to disagree? I think I will say it to someone when they are just, like, overpowering the conversation and kind of, like feels like they're almost, like yelling at me.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

And so I'll be like, I don't want to engage. Like, that's kind of like, why you. Why you would. I would say that if I'm speaking for myself, it's to kind of be

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

like, I'm done with this.

[Jordana Abraham]

I don't write. I don't really want to, like, get into this with you because it doesn't seem like you're trying to see my perspective.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's a. It's a. It's a way to stop whatever is happening. It's not. It's not a real thing.

[Jared Freid]

So if I. If I said doctor or I want to eat chicken tonight, and you're like, I want to eat steak, and then I'M like, agree to disagree. And then you would ask me what I agree with, and I would say, I would agree that your decision to want to have steak is disgusting. Like, I. I'm playing this out is valid. You're. You want to have steak, which I un. I guess I would say I would understand that that's something you want, but you are not listening to what I want, which is chicken. Is that kind of what you would want to hear back? I guess that's slowing it down and softening the yelling. Is that kind of what it's doing?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Let's say we're having this conversation. Let's role play.

[Jared Freid]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You want chicken. You want chicken. I want steak, which is actually disgusting. I agree with you, but let's pretend.

[Jared Freid]

Or I need to have chicken tonight. I can't have it any other way. I've been craving chicken all day.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I want steak.

[Jared Freid]

You want steak?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I want steak.

[Jared Freid]

No, but I know. Well, no, we need to have chicken. I need it. I've been thinking about it all week. I saw a commercial for Popeyes, and it's been on my mind, and it's all I can think about. We're having chicken tonight.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I want steak.

[Jared Freid]

Well, agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. We're having chicken.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Oh, that's. Agree to disagree. So you're basically, like, forcing me to have chicken. What's your logic? How do you force another person to have chicken?

[Jared Freid]

Right. I guess you don't know how much you want chicken is what I'm saying to you. You don't even. You let me put on the commercial for Popeyes and let me see how you react to it. And if you're not in the mood for chicken after that Popeyes commercial, I just don't know if we can make it as a couple. And maybe we should break up.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Your way or the highway. Got it.

[Jordana Abraham]

Well, that's. That's the person where you would. I feel like that's the kind of person where you'd have to say, agree to disagree, so you could, like, plan your exit.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

So, okay, so I. The. My tai chi maneuver would be. All right, let me just understand the. The contract here between us. If we want to be in a relationship, I need to agree with your preferences. That's your idea of a good relationship? I just want to know what I'm signing up for.

[Jared Freid]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Is it always going to go your way?

[Jared Freid]

Right. I. I get. Well, now you've gone a good way, because I'm thinking of this role play, and I'm like, okay, now we're talking about things that I'd have to like, have to own.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jared Freid]

You know, like I'd have to own that every time I want chicken or make a decision, we go by my tastes and my, my cravings I got and.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Right.

[Jared Freid]

But then I guess the part where people get like really frustrating relationships is someone does play it out. Like someone is so into their. Like, how do you deal with someone who's so into that to winning that they're not willing to. Because I, I'm playing as we play this out. I'm like, well, then I would have to say if I was really a piece of. I would have to go, yes. That's how I feel. I'm the dinner. Dinner decider and my cravings rule the roost. And we're gonna have a roost full of chicken tonight and forever. You know, Like, I, you know what I mean? Like, I guess. What do you, what do you do?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Because then what we're doing here. Yeah, in my mind, what you do then. And that's, that's kind of basically my training as a psychoanalyst comes in here is you. What you're doing, at least in the therapy, but people can do it on their own is you're moving a little bit beyond the concreteness of chicken and steak. And you're talking about the, the contract of the relationship. What kind of. What is the contract there? Does one person on some implicit level believe that they're entitled to be the one dictating what's going on? And if they really believe that, it's usually based on something. What is it based on? Is it based on patriarchy? Is it based on the fact that they're making more money? Is it based on the fact that that's how they were raised? They do. They actually not really believe in that, but they're trying anyhow. Were they like, you know, the favorite? Were they the, the favorite in the family? I mean, it's. Usually there's something going on there that they believe.

[Jared Freid]

Is it reasonable to base it off of? Every time you choose a dinner, you seem to hate it afterwards. And that's why I've taken the lead on dinner.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Well, if you have something interesting, if you have some interesting feedback for your partner, then you talk about it. You say, okay, I don't. This is not what I'm proposing here. I'm not proposing that I will be the one deciding. I'm just giving you some feedback here about the fact that you, you, your decision making process doesn't convince Me. Because you decide on one thing and then you regret it immediately after. Let's talk about that.

[Jared Freid]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's. The idea here is, like, you try to, like, expose what is the underlying thing that is discussed through the chicken and the steak.

[Jared Freid]

Right. And the. It is what it is.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Interesting.

[Jared Freid]

That's, you know, what's beneath is what it is what's beneath the. Agree to disagree.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Exactly.

[Jared Freid]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

I have. I have one more question for you because I think we've. We've talked about this, and it's also like, you know, a lot of our podcast is like, the way men think about things versus, like, the way traditionally men think about things versus the way traditionally women think. Think about things. Do you feel like there's a point where it's like, too early or too late to go to couples therapy? Like, how soon into dating would you say? It's kind of a red flag that you're even here.

[Jared Freid]

And let me add on to that. If I was dating someone and I was. If I wasn't engaged with someone and they brought up couples therapy, I would immediately break up with them. And I'm saying that not. I'm just saying.

[Jordana Abraham]

Very interesting.

[Jared Freid]

That would be company policy for me. And if someone wrote in, we're going to couples therapy, we're three months in, I would be like, and this. Why would anyone do this? This is crazy. So I. And I'm saying that. Willing to be told, please tell me I'm a.

[Jordana Abraham]

Well, yeah, that's why we have a. We have a professional here.

[Jared Freid]

I'm.

[Jordana Abraham]

Do you agree with that? I feel like that's a male. That's definitely a male mindset to me.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

But I, by the way, just so you know, after all these years of living and practicing, I don't really fully think there's a male versus female mindset.

[Jordana Abraham]

Really.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I think they're there. Yeah. I think there are little superficial differences, but I think at the core, I don't really.

[Jordana Abraham]

Maybe it's what I hear more, I guess, from the men that anecdotally not, you know, not as a non clinician.

[Jared Freid]

Right. Well, also, you're getting people electing to come to you too. Like, like, it is a big decision to go to therapy and go to a couple. Like, I have a lot of respect for the decision made as a couple. Like, you're. You are working together if you're at couples therapy, like, at a certain point.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

But there are plenty of men that pressure their. Their girlfriends or wives to go to therapy.

[Jared Freid]

Sure. But girlfriends, like, well, yeah, well, I know. Who are these losers? Too early.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Too late. Yeah. I actually agree with both of you. I think there is a too early and there is a too late. Okay. I think if you're starting a relationship and you're immediately like, let's get a therapist in. It's like, what's the insecurity? Like, what. I mean, you haven't even formed a relationship. What is the therapist gonna do?

[Jordana Abraham]

Right?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I mean, three months in that there's no relationship yet. It's. It's too early. I agree. It seems to me more a matter of insecurity than. I mean, if you're at three months in, you're already having impossible arguments, right.

[Jordana Abraham]

That you can't work through that. That's fair.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, that's.

[Jordana Abraham]

Well, what about like, a year in? Two years in?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, once. One. Two years in. I mean, once. Like, there's a real pattern that's forming that you don't know how to get out of. That's when it would be a good idea to bring in someone else. But you have to, like, really have established, like, a real pattern that. That you've tried to make your way out of. Not everyone needs therapy when it's too late. Sometimes it's too late. When too much bitterness and misery has accumulated and people just become so hopeless and so entrenched, it can be too late. Like, the love can dry out, which is very sad.

[Jordana Abraham]

Right.

[Jared Freid]

That's the saddest. I mean, like, that's.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

That's really sad.

[Jared Freid]

Love can dry out. I mean, you should turn it into merch. That'd be fun. A hat. Love dried out. Love.

[Jordana Abraham]

Where would you wear that?

[Jared Freid]

I don't know. Give it to them as they break up on their way out. They can take their T shirts.

[Jordana Abraham]

Yes. Consolation prize.

[Jared Freid]

I. Well, because a lot of this, you know, it's funny because, like, you know, Jordan and I get this, should I go? Should I not? Thing, and you're. You're getting probably later in the process. Yeah, I'm definitely later in the process. But, like, you know, I. I think a lot. And again, for me, I'll speak for myself, you know, going on a date, when I would go on a date, there was so many insecurities I had about, like, the future and wanting to not mess it up. I don't want to end up as much as I would love to, you know, meet you, Dr. Orna. I don't want to end up at Dr. Orna. That's like, my number one fear is like, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to spend hours a week, you know, discussing my inner traumas and stuff. I don't want to do that.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Well, may I protest?

[Jared Freid]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

That coming to doctor or any doctor or not just me is not like, the worst thing in the world.

[Jared Freid]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I mean, people do not suffer terribly in couples therapy.

[Jordana Abraham]

Some people actually like it and come out better on the other side.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. You get. You get to talk about things that matter to you.

[Jared Freid]

They wouldn't want to go on vacation instead.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It. It can feel a little bit like a vacation.

[Jared Freid]

Okay. No, I understand.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's not. It's not a bad experience to be in couples therapy, but the need to go.

[Jordana Abraham]

I actually think the healthier. A lot of the healthiest couples are in couples therapy. It's almost like the opposite of what you would think, because those are the people who are actively working on their relationship. It's like the people who are the. Who are the most physically fit people aren't the people who never go to the gym.

[Jared Freid]

Right.

[Jordana Abraham]

They're the people who are in the gym all the time, working on their physical fitness, I guess.

[Jared Freid]

Well, I guess. Do people do that then, you know, to. To take it all back because I'm willing to be the buffoon idiot. Do people. Are they, like, doing it like the gym where they're like this kind of preventative? Like, do you meet people who are like, don't need couples therapy, but they're like, we're just kind of here for a tune up?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I would like to think of it not as a gym, but as like taking a walk. You know, the gym. You know, people do these little routines. It's not a gym. It's like, you take a walk together with me. I mean, that would be the analogy. And you see new things along the way. But some people do spend more time in couples therapy just to have a space where they're exploring things.

[Jared Freid]

That would be a great business idea, Dr. Oren. I live in Delray Beach. There's a path that's about 2,500 steps that goes along the beach here in Delray. If you could just sit, stand there at the beginning of the path and be like, here, you can venmo me and I'll take this walk with you as a couple. Even if things are like. I think people would do that. Even if things are okay. I think the biggest issue with a couples therapy from my angle is bringing it up. Like, if I'm in this loving relationship and I'm having, like, right now I'm with someone and I'm having the honeymoon phase and enjoying myself. But like, if I just saw you on that path and I was like, hey, you want to just like take a whirl? You know, we'll. We'll take Dr. Orna for 2,500 steps. I think that would be like, a little bit easier, actually.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Very cute. That could be a good TV series, wouldn't that be.

[Jared Freid]

I think you're right. Now we're in business together. What if we started a production company from this? No, but I, I do. You know what I mean? Like, I, I think that's the hardest.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Take a walk with a doctor, walk with doc.

[Jared Freid]

Now we got merch too. Holy. Okay, I, I do think that's the hardest part because, like, do you think. How do you bring that up in a great relationship? We should do couples therapy?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You just do. Let's go talk to someone. We're having trouble here. We're kind of stuck. Let's just go talk to someone.

[Jordana Abraham]

I think I have a great relationship and I brought, I brought it up. And I think, you know when. Because like, I think the idea that you'll never go through anything as a couple if you plan to be together in a. For a long, in a long term relationship is kind of crazy. It's like no one gets by without. Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

And so for me, I mean, I had, we had many years of like, fertility struggles and like, there were points where we did. Could not agree and could he. I didn't feel like understood and he didn't feel like he was understanding me. And I think it's like, to me, it's like, here's this person who can help facilitate this conversation. So it feels like you're understanding what I'm saying and I can understand what you're saying.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

Who's a trained professional. That's how I would bring it up.

[Jared Freid]

Maybe it's a good one year anniversary gift, like a check in. I mean a check in instead of like a, you know, you know, those like coupons that are like one massage, you know, it's just one.

[Jordana Abraham]

I mean, I'm a homeowner. You so are you now. And like, there's yearly maintenance you have to do for like your air conditioning filters. Like, shouldn't there be that for the thing that's like the crux of like.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I don't like that analogy.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I don't like that analogy.

[Jordana Abraham]

You're not into my analogy. You don't like mine. You don't like the gym. You don't like the air conditioner.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I Don't like the gym. I don't like the air conditioners. Serious business.

[Jordana Abraham]

What would you liken it to?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Let's read a book together.

[Jared Freid]

You see it as more of a.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's like a mind expanding thing. It's not like a maintenance.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

It's. It's an expansion. It's like you're going on a voyage. It's. It's.

[Jared Freid]

You see it more like doing shrooms together than.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jordana Abraham]

A yearly trip.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Like. Yeah, a yearly trip.

[Jared Freid]

I get that.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

More like that, right?

[Jordana Abraham]

I mean, a date night is seen as relationship maintenance, is it not?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I don't. Why maintenance?

[Jordana Abraham]

Because it's like. I think of it as like a. Like a living, breathing thing that needs to be tended to. It's fun. It's fun, but it also, you know,

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

you can be a lot more ambitious than maintenance.

[Jordana Abraham]

Maybe that's. Maybe that's a bad word, right? Investment. I don't know. What's the no.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Journey.

[Jordana Abraham]

Journey.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No, not optimization. Not in. Not investment. Not roi.

[Jared Freid]

Jordan is a CEO. She's a founder. This is how she thinks.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jordana Abraham]

So I think optimization, efficiency. Efficiency.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

This is not. This is not a business model.

[Jordana Abraham]

I want to make sure that I, you know, up leveled. Right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No.

[Jared Freid]

So you genuinely, Dr. Orna see that your therapy can make a couple go from wherever they are to. Unbelievable.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Jared Freid]

Like that's to you. That's a better way to sell couples therapy than we need maintenance is we

[Jordana Abraham]

need to change the air. The air conditioner. Filters.

[Jared Freid]

Yeah, we need the filters.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. I'm not selling couples therapy. Well, keep putting this language that I'm

[Jordana Abraham]

like, no, we're trying to be. To put some more capitalism into what you're doing.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I know you are. You're like. You're merchandising.

[Jared Freid]

It's a good idea. Okay. Dr. Ora, before we go. This is great. It's a pleasure to meet you.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

We.

[Jared Freid]

We've been wanting to meet you. So this has been a true pleasure and this was really fun. I'm so happy you could come and everyone go check out couples therapy. The new season of couples therapy is out May 15th. The show is out now. Series premieres with all new episodes on the Paramount Plus Prem plan on May 15. So Paramount plus plenum plan. Go check out couples therapy. I wanted to this idea because we. We just get so many people. So many people. Let me speak for me myself. I. I would get my head about going on a date. You know, you have this thing between people telling you should go on versus. Do I want to go on and then something happens and you're like, I just don't want to go anymore. So this is called go or no. Okay.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay.

[Jared Freid]

You ready, Dr. Arnold? Okay, go or no?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Let's see. I don't know.

[Jared Freid]

You're attracted to them, but you can't stand their career. Do you go on the first date or no?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Go.

[Jared Freid]

Go. Why?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Because you're attracted to them.

[Jared Freid]

So you think attraction, attraction means a lot?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, attraction is physical attraction. Physical attraction is a lot. I think that's. That's. That's good.

[Jared Freid]

Do you think someone can date someone that's not their type?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

What do you mean their type?

[Jared Freid]

If they have a physical attraction to a general type of physical type. Yeah, physical type. Do you think someone can make it with someone that's not their type?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I think those things change. Yeah. When you get to know someone, your type changes.

[Jordana Abraham]

Okay, what if you're not attracted but they. Everyone says they're really. They're very nice.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I would give it a small chance.

[Jordana Abraham]

You would go.

[Jared Freid]

What's a small chance?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I would go. I would go for one more date.

[Jared Freid]

Okay. Well, Dr. Orna, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it. We want everyone to go check out couples therapy on the Paramount plus premium plan. May 15. And Jordana, we solve dating again with Dr. Orna.

[Jordana Abraham]

We did it. We'll be back next week. Bye.

[Jared Freid]

Boom.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from mint mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront

[Prime Originals Announcer]

payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mint mobile.com com betches.