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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by
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B
Prime Obsession is in session.
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A
And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus.
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C
Welcome back to the Friday Feels episode of the U UP podcast. I'm Jordana Abraham.
- [00:38]
D
And I am Jared Freed. It is so good to be back here with you, Jordana. But it's especially good and we are virtual today because we have two very special guests. They are the co host of the I Married a Gay man podcast. And. And they are. I mean, that explains it all, to tell you the truth. Samantha Wynn Greenstone and Jacob Hoff, thank you for coming to the show.
- [01:05]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [01:06]
B
Thanks for having us.
- [01:07]
C
Of course. So, I mean, I, I think I was scrolling Instagram where I, where I live these days, and I saw, I think it was like your people article come up, basically like kind of giving a general sense of like that you guys were an inter orientation couple and that you just had a baby and that you were married. And I sent it to Jared and I was like, we need to have these people on. Like, I need to hear more about how this happened, how this came to be, like, like this, how this whole dynamic works. So I'm so excited to have you guys here. Like I'm. And just to get into your whole story.
- [01:44]
A
Well, thank you. We're excited to share it.
- [01:47]
D
Yeah. Can you guys just kind of tell us the deal here? Because like, you know, we, we have so many questions. We were even talking before. I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know where to start. Like, can you tell your story for our audience?
- [02:00]
A
Sure. So the, the main thing is we're, we're a pretty classic couple in the traditional sense, except for the fact that I identify as a gay man. And that is a phenomenon that I think we all know exists in relationships. And I feel like everybody knows a couple that has this dynamic that's kind of unspoken and we're trying to make people a little more open about that. And I think it alleviates a lot of the pressure for the queer person and the straight person in the relationship. And it just clears the clouds in your mind and removes all doubt.
- [02:46]
B
And I know that everyone's always like, okay, well, they must have an open relationship. I think as we package this up by saying traditional, we are both like we're completely monogamous and we have that old fashioned love story kind of. Sorry, I'm hearing an echo from Jacob's room. I'm sorry to interrupt it. I'm wondering, Jacob, can you turn your volume down just a little?
- [03:14]
A
Sure.
- [03:15]
D
This is as traditional old married couple as it gets.
- [03:18]
A
Yeah, exactly right.
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D
This interaction. Close the door. This is my parents.
- [03:24]
B
You're a little too loud. Usually I'm the loud one.
- [03:27]
A
You're certainly the loud one. If you can hear yourself through my phone.
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D
This is my parents. Oh my God, I'm getting triggered.
- [03:37]
A
We're used to being side by side on things. So the whole like her being in another space is like we're really showing our old people cards here.
- [03:48]
D
So take a step back. How did you two meet?
- [03:51]
B
We met at an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. And so there's this theater in San Diego, the Welk Resort. And they have a theater on this resort, basically. And so it was the Monday after Thanksgiving and there was this audition. I was living in LA at the time. I was like, I really do not want to drive down and deal with this audition right now, but something told me that I should go. So this place is one of those unique places where you audition, you do the callback, and you basically get cast that night.
- [04:30]
A
It's very intense. It's like, it's like a chorus line. Like, you know, God, I hope I get it and then like, get out of here. It's like very, very fast.
- [04:39]
B
Which is really what like Southern California theater is all about. It's like they, they just. It's pretty quick, but they like try to give you like the big New York experience, but you're just like, it's not that serious. But we show up to the audition. Both Jacob and I got callbacks. And then I like Jacob to take over this part because I like his challenge.
- [05:03]
A
So I'm sitting and we're all like sitting there going over our parts. And they call the women in for this role, Fruma Sara. And if you know, Fiddler on the Roof, she is like this featured role that comes out in this nightmare sequence. And she's kind of like a hodgepodge of the Wicked Witch of the west meets a ghost from A Christmas Carol like crazy off the wall thing. And so they bring like nine or ten girls into the room. And you can kind of hear the muffled piano, like banging out the song as each girl goes to perform. And you can't really hear the singing. So everybody's in the lobby in the Waiting room, like doing their nervous. So I'm at an audition, energy and then like cutting through the walls, there's this. And I'm like, what the hell was that? Because this person who just let this out, doesn't give a fuck about anything, doesn't care what people think of her, has the balls to do this in a place that, where everybody's worried about being judged. And so I instantly became obsessed by this and I'm like, I have to meet this person. And so they open the door when they're leaving and the girls are walking out. And I just instantly knew it was her. Like, it just. She was reeking of that cackle. And I was like, I walked over to her and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy.
- [06:37]
B
And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, if they don't give me this part, they're crazy.
- [06:41]
C
Right?
- [06:42]
B
And so he gave me the high five that I needed in that moment. And I'm like, well, thank you. But also I was like, I want to get out of here. Because, you know, you could like, do the best job and know you're the best for the role, but it could all come down to like, oh, she's too short. We want this to be like the tallest creature ever. Um, so I, I try not to get like too invested. So I was like, thank you so much left. We both ended up getting the job and rehearsals started about a month later and we both were being housed on the resort because we lived in LA.
- [07:15]
A
Yeah. And it be basically began an 18 month friendship where we hung out, especially during that contract, every single day. And it was till 4 o' clock in the morning and then I'd go home, go to bed, wake up, and she'd be like, let's go on a hike in the next morning. And I was like, oh my God. Like, it was just like we were inseparable, but it was platonic.
- [07:41]
C
And how, how long ago is this?
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A
This was in 2015.
- [07:45]
B
The audition was 2015. But then we started rehearsals. January 2016, right?
- [07:51]
A
Yeah. And so she in that time knew I'm gay. She. I went to her with, you know, guy troubles or anything like that. And to me there was always something kind of there that was more. And I always felt like, like Samantha, as I say, collects gays. Like, she has more gay fans than Cher and she has like. So I was always like, God, I want to be more than like one of her gays in her collection.
- [08:24]
B
And he always felt like more Than one of my days. Like, I never. I it. That was why it was so confusing because I'm like, I have this feeling and this, like. I just couldn't explain the magnetism that we had. And it felt like unlike anything I'd ever felt with any other human being in the world.
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A
Yeah.
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D
Did it feel like a sibling relationship or does it feel like a best friend? Would that, like, how would you describe it to someone?
- [08:54]
A
No, it feels like a soulmate. It feels like the person you're meant to grow old with and die with.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah. Like, the best way I can describe it is the way you feel when you're watching like a rom com or something and you see like the people meet for the first time and you're like, oh, I know that they're going to be the. The. They're going to fall in love, you know.
- [09:17]
D
Right. And I. I guess my question of that is, so how did you. So you become these fast friends and then you see that there's something more. It feels like a soulmate. Is there a. When you bring in a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a boyfriend, I guess. Samantha, how you identify as a straight. As straight?
- [09:36]
B
Yes.
- [09:37]
D
Right. Okay. So would you have boyfriends and. And Jacob, did you have boyfriends that you bring them in and just. It would ruin the vibe.
- [09:45]
B
You know, we like, really didn't hang out with like a third. That's the thing that, that was so confusing is like, we would like talk to each other about, you know, kind of like our little navigations of relationships in the world, but we never really had a significant other during that time. It was like we didn't want anyone else to hang out with us when we were hanging out unless they were like a. A mutual best friend. Like.
- [10:15]
A
Yeah. And Samantha's my only real relationship in life. I had, you know, flings with guys, but I was very much on the down low. Publicly I would tell my friends that I'm gay, but I was, you know, I grew up in a conservative Christian house and the gay thing was a taboo thing growing up. And so I was terrified to come out. And through our relationship, Samantha actually helped me come out to my family, which was fantastic. And it was amazing. But yeah, so at that time, it wasn't like we were living these other lives. We were very close with each other.
- [11:07]
C
So then how does, how does like, sex play into it?
- [11:09]
A
So we do have sex and we are, we are monogamous and that the reason that this is where people go, well, then why don't you identify as bisexual? That's like the biggest frustration people have with us or the biggest thing that they can't get over. And basically the reason is that my identity has always been wrapped up in being gay. And that's how I feel when I go out into the world. I'm not attracted to women and I'm never going to be. And that's a gay person. Bisexual, you know, says that you are attracted to both because Samantha is my soulmate and because we are just connected in that way, it doesn't change my identity. And that's what we're trying to say for people's mental health is that you can identify a certain way and you can have a partner and you can have a soulmate be a completely different thing, and that connection can live in its own world and you still get to keep who you are.
- [12:15]
D
Right. I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned in the beginning that we all kind of know a couple that is living this way. The way you're totally positioning it. And I, I, it is interesting because I, I never thought of it that way. Like, I guess, you know, that's the couple you may talk about when you go home and you go, yeah, do you think, what's going on?
- [12:39]
B
Does she know?
- [12:41]
D
Right. And is this an agreement? You know, we all, and, and if they said this is kind of what we worked out, you know, the friends who don't really deserve that information, really, they probably all understand, they would all go, okay, yeah. It is interesting that you guys are like, just basically like, well, why not? Why isn't this a lifestyle that people can, can lead?
- [13:02]
A
Right.
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B
If people are, the argument is always love is love. And I feel like the queer community likes to use that as an argument for anything. But this is an example of that we feel in its, like, most authentic, purest form, where the love just transcended the label and for some reason it, like, stops people in their tracks when it really should just be the epitome of all the work and the, you know, the example of the catchphrase proof is in the pudding.
- [13:38]
A
Yeah. The other thing is that there's so many societal pressures, I think, a lot on straight men to put on this macho front and for them to admit, you know, especially one that's a closeted homosexual. And they're, they're putting on this front of, I'm heterosexual if I'm, if they're in a relationship like this, typically. And so it's very hard for them to get to the nerve and say I'm gay, because that that means admitting something that maybe society says isn't masculine or isn't traditional. And that's hard. And for the woman as well, or whatever dynamic, you know, it go, it can go either way. The woman could be the gay person in the relationship, but it means kind of swallowing a pill that is tough to swallow. Right.
- [14:30]
D
And I guess you could say the same thing. You know, the guy who says he's straight but is in a mat. You could be like, this is how I identify in the same way that you just said. The opposite could be true too.
- [14:44]
A
Totally.
- [14:44]
D
I identify as a straight man and this marriage is working for me in this way. The words don't matter, don't need to connect to the actions that you believe they should connect to.
- [14:55]
B
Yeah, right, exactly. It's like people don't question a straight man's loyalty to his straight wife because you know, it's a straight relationship. But sometimes people are just like confused like, well, you're gay so you have to be like cheating on her or there's no way this is going to work.
- [15:15]
A
Right.
- [15:15]
B
And I'm like a straight man doesn't all of a sudden start finding the rest of the women in the world unattractive. It's your, your sexuality doesn't tie into your ability to be loyal and what your boundaries and your moral code are.
- [15:31]
C
Yeah, right.
- [15:32]
A
No matter what you are, you choose your partner every, every morning when you wake up. No matter your dynamic.
- [15:40]
C
Right. So I'm saying. But even so, even though you, you don't identify as, as bisexual and you do identify as gay, you're, you're sexually attracted to Samantha but not any other woman.
- [15:50]
A
Right. And, and, and yes, exactly. And I say it in the form that it's not that work in the stripper pole type of attraction. It's not that ass and titties and all that thing. It's a very, very deep. And I say the only way to really translate it is to say it's the way a 90 year old couple looks at each other. Once all the vanity and all the bullshit melts away and you're just these things, it's like that's the love. That's what I feel when I look at Samantha.
- [16:25]
B
But yet as the receiver of Jacob's gaze, like I have never felt more attractive or beautiful or cherished as a woman in my life than the way that I feel when I, Jacob, like compliments me or looks at me like it's just, it's a feeling.
- [16:42]
A
Yeah. That's what we all want
- [16:47]
C
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- [20:37]
D
Hey guys. We're going to take a quick break from Samantha and Jacob to have a an announcement. We have an announcement about you up with benefit subscription. Go ahead Jordana.
- [20:46]
C
Hey guys, do you love you up but you wish that Jared and I talked more about our lives and what goes on behind the scenes.
- [20:52]
D
Subscribe to you up with benefits. You'll get early access to episodes ad free listening and bonus subscriber only chats where we share even more about our Lives with you. And soon, Jordana, big announcement.
- [21:08]
C
Soon you get video if you sign up on the Betcha site or via Spotify. And if you subscribe now, you can lock in the 39.99 yearly rate before it becomes 6.99amonth or $54.99 in June. So, you know, get your savings, get to it, get on it right now,
- [21:25]
D
and back to the show. So when does this start? You know, when do you guys, like, kind of hatch this out?
- [21:37]
C
Whose idea was this?
- [21:38]
D
Right, right. Because this is. This is so different than people know that you have to. This is a. This is actually creative because I would assume that this endeavor invites a different type of. Because you guys have a big following like we were looking. You have a following of people that.
- [21:55]
C
You have a baby.
- [21:56]
D
You have a baby. I mean, we haven't even gotten to the baby. But I, like, I. I would assume because I used to do these videos where I'd give pep talks to single people, I'd be like, listen, you could be in the worst relationship ever, and that would be a lot worse than being single. And I would describe the worst relationship ever. And it did very well. But it would do very well. There was a group of people that would like those videos that I. I would assume and tell me I'm wrong that you get these people that are like, dating sucks so much.
- [22:25]
A
I've.
- [22:26]
D
This is you. You represent how horrible dating is.
- [22:31]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [22:32]
D
It doesn't sound like this was that. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't sound like you guys were like, fuck these apps. Fuck these people.
- [22:40]
B
Right.
- [22:40]
D
We're going to do this. It feels like this is a genuine connection between two people that feel loved.
- [22:46]
B
Yes.
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D
So do you have that portion of your fans, so to speak, that are there because of that?
- [22:51]
B
Oh, yeah. There. And there's a whole portion of women who are like, how do I find this? How do I find this? And we're like, no, you don't find this. Like, this is a happy accident, really. This is faint. But we want to also say that we do exist. And as we share, we get people in our DMs who are like, oh, my gosh, I feel so seen because I am also in this relationship or my parents were in this relationship. So we're visibility for a minute few and we understand that, you know, it kind of looks like it's something that you. Oh, like I would choose to be in this.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah.
- [23:31]
B
But like, it wasn't two people who were like, this is the most convenient Situation. In fact, we always say it's, like, by all means inconvenient. And it really. The catalyst for us kind of becoming together was that after 18 months, I was back in San Diego doing a show for the summer. And I was very. I was playing Harpo Marx in Animal Crackers. And Harpo Marx is, you know, like, a lot of physical comedy. So I was deep into the hot yoga, you know, woo woo experience that summer. Cause I was trying to just be as limber as possible. And I was really just kind of in this, like, place where either I was dehydrated or I was just very in tune with my breath work. And my friend had gone to a farmer's market and said, sam, I just met the most incredible energy healer. You have to go and see her. So I'm like, okay, this girl's got a pep in her step now. And so I went to see this energy healer. And I get there, and it's like, in the back of this little, like, shop in Little Italy. And I'm like, where am I? I walk in. I go into this back room with this lady, and she's like, you know, going in and out. You know, there's customers walking in. She's trying to sell them Christmas as she's given me my reading. And she's like, so tell me about your life. Are you seeing anyone? And I'm like, no, but I have this incredibly weird, unexplainable connection with my best friend in the world. And she's like, stop right there. I sense that you guys share a spiritual umbilical cord. And I'm like, great. This is exactly what I needed to hear. And so I leave the store and I text Jacob, and I'm like, you ever have any feelings for me than more than just a friend? Like, I was like, just. It was what I needed to hear to make that move. And I never would have made that move before. Like, never. I'm like, I will be courted. You know, I'm not putting myself out there for a man. I was very much in kind of like, someone needs to convince me that it's a better situation to be with them than to be with myself.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah.
- [25:46]
B
And Jacob just kind of gave me that security. Like, I knew that even if his answer was no, our friendship and our bond was strong enough that we would be able to laugh about it and just move on with our lives together.
- [25:59]
C
Okay, and what did he say to it?
- [26:00]
A
I remember I was. Had just got done surfing because I was a surf instructor at the time. And I come in the apartment and I get that text and I'm like, whoa. There's two feelings that happen. One is of course, like, this is everything I've ever wanted, even though I didn't acknowledge it. And the other feeling was terror that this was never gonna work. Like, how am I going to be intimate with her? And this could fuck everything up that's going so great. Like this friendship and. But, you know, then some. So, so I send her a text that says, what do you mean? Which was the stupidest thing.
- [26:47]
D
That's. Every guy writes that back.
- [26:49]
C
Every guy we get on this show.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah.
- [26:52]
D
What do you mean? Let me catch my. Yeah.
- [26:55]
A
And then a minute later I'm like, okay, that's a dumb answer. I need to say something better than that. And so I was like, of course I. I feel more for you than a friend. And I'm. I'm willing to try, basically. And something was like whispering in my head that like, all this would be okay. Similar to what Samantha said. Like, we have a good enough relationship that even if we try this and fail, we'll be able to laugh it off. Be like, remember that time we tried to hook up or something.
- [27:25]
D
It's almost easier considering you identifying as gay because then you're not. Like, it's not personal. Right. It would feel less personal.
- [27:34]
A
Right.
- [27:35]
D
It's the insecurity I can understand, like telling a friend that's of the opposite sex that you're attracted. I could see how this friendship could still work if this didn't work out.
- [27:45]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so I drove down to San Diego the next weekend and we hooked up for the first time. And it was successful. It was, it was remarkably easy. And I was just like, wow, this is. All of that melted away instantly. Like that fear now I don't want to. One thing we're very clear about is we don't want to paint this picture that it's been perfect or that it's been easy this entire time. Because what I say is we went through about a six month honeymoon period after that where we were just inseparable. Samantha moves in immediately and we are, you know, going through the honeymoon phase. And then it starts to take a turn where the insecurities start to come into our lives and we start saying, how is this really going to work in the long term? I'd never seen myself being in a relationship with a woman. I'd never seen myself getting married, having a child.
- [28:48]
B
And I'd never heard of this type of relationship before.
- [28:52]
A
Right. And so and then I had horrible communication at that time. I mean, I had just terrible communication. I smoked pot all the time, and I was just, like, in a daze all the time. And good. You know. What do you mean? Was my default.
- [29:05]
B
I was like, you're so perfect, but you're broken right here. How do we just. This screw.
- [29:10]
A
And on top of that not coming out of the closet, this is something that is also not talked about. Being in the closet can manifest a lot of ugly feelings in a person. And for me, that was anger. And I was very angry. I mean, unreasonably angry. And even I look at pictures of myself in that time, and I can see that anger on my. I can see it in me. And was. It was a weird thing that we eventually. Now this is where it's crazy. And. And something. Some sort of fate was here for us because we went through years of just arguments and communication issues and good things, too, but always hitting these roadblocks. And eventually we said, we need to see a couples counselor. And so we get this random teladoc counselor, and we get on the call with her, and we start talking, and we tell her our dynamic. And she goes, this is really interesting because I have to tell you, I'm married to a woman, but I identify as a straight person. She's like, I've always been attracted to only men. I was with men. And I've just found this woman, and we are soulmates, and she's my partner. And we all had this aha moment where it's like, this is a phenomenon. This happens, and it's just not talked about. But it can work, and it can. People can find life in this. And so that really settled us in a different way to find another person that had this dynamic.
- [30:59]
D
So. But from the six months in, you have the honeymoon period, and then at six months, you're dealing with a little bit of difficulty. Like, how do we play this for the future? From then until you meet with this therapist who's, you know, kind of speaking to your. You know, what you guys are doing. How long is that? What's the time frame? How is the relationship?
- [31:20]
A
It's like years. Three years.
- [31:22]
B
So.
- [31:22]
D
Years of what? As a couple.
- [31:25]
A
As a couple, when. I mean, never going outside the relationship. We've never had a moment like that. We've never broken up. We've spent.
- [31:33]
B
Yeah. We've never even been close to it. It's just been like. It was like years of, like, us having an overall pretty amazing relationship and then hitting communication. Explosive conversations.
- [31:48]
A
Yeah.
- [31:48]
B
That were when we would have, you know, communication blockages.
- [31:53]
C
Right.
- [31:54]
A
Those things kick your ass. Like, they take a. They. They take like a week to recover from because you're just like, you know, you go through adrenaline and you go through all these crazy things. And we kept going, why is this happening? Like, we are so perfect together every other way, except for this nonsense that keeps coming up.
- [32:14]
C
Right. And I mean, the speaking to that therapist and what you were just saying about. About her. I feel like I've heard of this kind of this phenomenon a lot more maybe like, in. In lesbian relationships where I think I remember this quote from, like, Portia de Rossi. Yeah. About Ellen, where she was like, I was. I was never, like, a lesbian until I met Ellen.
- [32:34]
A
Yeah.
- [32:34]
C
But I haven't really heard much, like, a lot, like, of that kind of conversation from gay men. And maybe, I guess it could be like this stereotypical thing where men might be, you know, it might be more of a stigma around it because there's this idea that men are maybe like, inherently more sexual than women.
- [32:50]
B
Yes.
- [32:50]
C
And so it would be harder to do that than, say, for a woman. Does that. Do you feel like that rings true at all?
- [32:56]
A
Oh, totally. And society, I think. I mean, I. I'm not 100% sure, but I think society accepts lesbian behavior out of women in a different way. It's viewed as hot by straight men, and it's, you know, oh, the girls are just messing around sort of thing. And if you're a gay dude, it's like, whoa, you know, it's like an ordeal. And. And we've gotten a lot better about that. But I mean, in. In.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah.
- [33:25]
A
The la. You know, 20 years ago or something. It was. It was a big. You look at the comedy films from that time, and it's all just like, you're so gay, you know.
- [33:34]
C
Right.
- [33:34]
B
Or like men feel threatened by how straight men can sometimes feel threatened by having gay friendships because they're like, oh, is he hitting on me? Or does he think that I'm hitting on him? And it's like, no, it's not. You don't hit on. You don't find every person in the world attractive. You know, and it's not. It's not like that. There's just so much stereotypical language that I think does get attributed to a gay man.
- [34:01]
D
Yeah. It's a. It's a rarer thing to hear about a man who had a phase in college in the way that women talk about it.
- [34:08]
A
Exactly.
- [34:08]
D
It's just not treated the same way.
- [34:11]
A
Right.
- [34:14]
D
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- [35:14]
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C
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B
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- [35:34]
C
Done.
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B
Hoping it looks anything like the picture
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C
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- [35:43]
A
Focus features in Blumhouse present Obsession.
- [35:47]
B
When I have a crush on a
- [35:48]
A
guy no one knows.
- [35:49]
D
Be careful.
- [35:51]
A
I wish Nikki loved me more than
- [35:52]
D
anyone in the entire world. Who you wish for?
- [35:56]
A
Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten tomatoes. I love you so, so, so, so much. It's blood soaked Nightmare Fuel Brook Hunger. Spilled your butt on her. You have been warned. Obsession. We did our under 17 anime without parent.
- [36:11]
D
Only in theaters May 15th with special engagements in Dolby. What year was the therapist's kind of breakthrough?
- [36:17]
A
I want to say the therapist was like 2018 or 19.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah.
- [36:22]
D
Do you think that putting this out on social media has made it maybe easier for you guys to like? Because now it's like your business a little bit.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah.
- [36:32]
D
Like, do you think that there's like a. A little bit of like a timing thing where you're like, now that we're out there with this type of. Because you don't. You could have this and not put it on social media.
- [36:42]
A
Like, yeah, for years.
- [36:45]
D
Yeah, right, for years. And then, but then you do, and you find that, like, oh, my God, the, the comings and goings of our lives is, like, interesting and thoughtful and, and you're hearing from people. I, I, I find it interesting that you're hearing from the people that are like, my parents had this relationship.
- [37:01]
B
Yeah. When we first started, before we even put it out online, we would, like, start telling our friends. And when we told our friends, we would find that some of our theater friends would be like, I'm in this type of relationship. Or they would be like, oh, well, my parents, who are also in theater are in this relationship. And we're like, okay, maybe it's just like, the closeness of theater that is giving us this kind of thing. And then one day, Jacob was making his top five lists, and then I was just like, people on social media sometimes share about their lives. And I was like, maybe you should start doing some of that. I was, like, thinking, like, he was going to share a recipe or something. And he was like, I want to share about our relationship. And I'm like, okay, we really, this is not where I thought we would go, but, like, if you are feeling that you're ready to tell this story, amazing. And we did. And, and people just were so curious about it. I think for me, walking into it, like, I got to take agency and control over that. Does she know narrative, like, yes, I know. And you're never gonna be able to, like, walk down the street and be like, oh, poor Samantha. Like, does she know her husband's gay? It just kind of empowered me to be able to be like, yes. Like. And as people were asking questions, I felt like, okay, as we are sharing this, we are not only educating people and providing visibility, but we are kind of having our own conversations about our relationship with one another through this medium. And it's like any confusion or reassurance or anything we had had. It's like, it's great to be able to tell our story and, like, answer these questions for everyone else and hear one another's answers to them over and over again. Because it just, like, I never get tired of hearing our love story.
- [39:12]
D
It's really unbelievable. And it's funny, like, hearing about it and talking to you guys about it. For me, two totally different things. Like, like, like, I, you hear about it, and it's funny what things get attention for. And I'm sure you guys feel that, like, sometimes it's the wrong attention.
- [39:30]
A
Yeah.
- [39:31]
B
Right?
- [39:32]
A
Yeah. I mean, that's why we try to do more conversations like this. We try. Our documentary, our. The book we're writing are ways to kind of get the story flushed out. And because it's. It's complicated and it's. It's a big thing. And when. When people see our one minute TikTok videos, a lot of people think it's. It's fake or they think we're. We're putting this on and it's. This is satire. And you know, and also just the nature of social media, the way you have to package social media is so sensational and BS that. And we know how to do it and we do it for the sake of reaching more people. You know, like, we start all our videos with like, I'm Samantha and I married a gay man. Or I'm like, I'm gay and I'm married to a woman. And like, it's so cringy and annoying to do that every time. But like, the, the way that video will then perform is so much better than if we just did a regular old video of us talking.
- [40:33]
B
Right? And every single day we get a message, at least one from someone being like, I'm in this relationship. And we're. It's just like had we had ourselves when we were going through this tumultuous, like, communication, confusion of feeling like we were freak shows for being in this type of relationship, we would have had a lot more peace. And I think it would have. We would have overcome our blockades earlier on. So the fact that we can make other people feel more normal and just, you know, probably feel more comfortable and the fact that, wow, I've just found, like, the right person in life is really rewarding.
- [41:17]
D
Jacob, you. You. I mean, you said that you hadn't come out to your family yet. What a roller coaster for them. If you think about it, like, oh, yeah, like, hey, I'm gay and here's my wife.
- [41:31]
A
It's like, oh, yeah, that was something, you know, for that they were so accepting and amazing about it. That I am. It was awesome and made life so much smoother and easier. Part of it is because they knew Samantha already for years and knew this, our relationship. I think it was probably more confusing for my dad. My dad is more that traditional conservative Christian guy. My mom's like, you know, super fun and, and, and. And my dad is fun too, but just, you know, she's more like different.
- [42:13]
D
Fun.
- [42:13]
A
Different? Yeah. Modern and everything. My dad conservative, fun? Yes, exactly. He was ultimately Very accepting. And that's actually what we found, and we're really happy about, is that a lot of conservatives connect to our story. And we think that that's a huge thing that needs repair is the community, the gay community and that conservative community. There is so much friction there from years of fighting for equality for the. For even. I mean, we have countless friends that have so many problems with their family for not accepting them for being gay. I had a friend commit suicide over it when I was in my early 20s. And that was devastating and probably was part of why it was harder for me to come out for more years, because I saw the backlash when he came out, and then, I mean, days later, he was dead. So it was like, holy shit. Like, this could really go south if your family doesn't accept you. So that that relationship, if that can get repaired, it would be so fantastic in the world because it's creating so many. So many problems for the queer people who feel rejected and for the families that feel they can't accept their own child over this.
- [43:37]
C
Yeah. I mean. Well, I have a question on that note, though. Do you feel like there's any. And I'm. And I don't think this is the message you're sending at all, but do you get people who kind of feel like you're basically saying to conservatives, like, yeah, you can choose to be. You could just choose to be with a woman. Yeah, like, why doesn't. Why doesn't everyone just say that? Like Jacob.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah. And we. We have people who say, oh, this is very dangerous for the conversion therapy mindset folk out there. And we are like, we. No, no, like, that's one thing that we are very adamant about, is we do not believe that you can change your sexuality. That's what we're saying. Like, just because Jacob's with me, he's still gay.
- [44:20]
C
Right.
- [44:20]
B
So we're saying the opposite.
- [44:22]
A
Right. And there's people who are fluid or there's people who are bisexual. There's. There's. I mean, the human sexuality is a very individual experience, and it's. That there's no blanket statement for anybody. It's. It's. It's confusing. And, you know, and a lot of people get annoyed at having to hear of the different nuances to it, but that it's just the way it is.
- [44:46]
C
That makes a lot of sense.
- [44:48]
D
So now you guys have a baby together.
- [44:50]
B
Yes.
- [44:51]
D
Has it made it more difficult? Less difficult? Because now, you know, I don't know. How does that change the dynamic?
- [44:59]
C
It's probably Pretty nice to raise a baby with your. With your absolute soulmate, right?
- [45:03]
D
There you go.
- [45:03]
C
Make things a little easier.
- [45:05]
B
I mean, pretty sure, a thousand percent. And I know that everyone feels this way about their own child. They're like, oh, my gosh, my child. I love my child. But we look at him and it's like, wow. Like, our love has now. Now has this token and this, like, combo of the two of us. And, like, to look at him and see what our love story was able to create. And just, like, the way his face lights up, I'm like, there's no doubt in my mind how much this was our destiny to be with one another, because you can't create a little being that just is like this, like, ball of light if it's not coming from some destiny or kismet place.
- [45:54]
D
From good, from. Yeah.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah. It's been amazing. I mean, he is the best part of everything. I mean, it's just a beautiful experience. And we have. We've grown so much stronger because of it. We have. We are lucky that we have such great communication now and we are able to navigate it. A lot of people were like, God, it's so hard. And, you know, there's obviously moments that are hard and overwhelming, but for us, it's been. I've been like, oh, this is actually easier than I thought it would be, because you don't understand the. The compelling love that drives you to do all the things to wake up in the middle of the night and to do all those clothes, laundry, or dishes. Like, there's so much love driving that forward that it makes doing them easier in my mind.
- [46:52]
B
And it's like, I can't help but love Jacob more than, like, every single day when I say, see him look at our son and, like, be the silly version of himself that he is with me. But, like, also see my son responding to it and being like, our son responding to it and just being, like, eating it up. I'm like, wow, if you think your dad's the greatest person in the world, like. Like, you're. This is just another person who's just validating, you know, how wonderful Jacob is, right?
- [47:22]
D
I would imagine the hard part is, like, the. The fan, you know, the family stuff. That's, like, where I kind of understand, like, where I do understand the idea, like, loving someone no matter what they are, like, you know, mother to my child, father, my child. Look at how they do this. This is an attraction that is. Supersedes looks like. And. But that's not the stuff you think about in the initial thing. Like, that's why the people coming to you that are like, dating sucks. This is what I want. Like, they get it the least. Almost right?
- [47:53]
B
Completely.
- [47:55]
A
They're in that culture. There's a whole culture. Obviously, sex has been sold to us in so many strange ways to get us some sort of, you know, gain off of it. And our society has bought into the apps and the, you know, the visual ephemeral stuff because it sells. And on the surface, it's very enticing to all of us. Uh, but. But the reality is the deep connection is there. There's nothing like that.
- [48:28]
B
And we would rather inspire people to just be like, wait a minute, I'm with someone for the wrong reasons versus, you know, and encourage them to find the person that makes them feel a certain way. Like, that's what the focus should be on less about. Like, okay, is he rich? Can he share my rent with me? You know, is he handsome? And how does this person make you feel? Like, are you a better person? Do you light up? Like, what is your life and world feel like when you're in their orbit?
- [48:57]
D
That's how a fairy tale ends. This is great. I. I'm so happy we had you guys on. We want everyone to go check out the podcast I Married a Gay Man. Also go check out Samantha and Jacob on social media at Samantha Win Greenstone, and then at Jacob M. Hoff. And do we want to do an email? Jordana? We'll do one quick email. One of our listeners wrote in.
- [49:18]
C
Yeah, let's see. Do it. Let's get your take. Yeah, I will read the email.
- [49:22]
D
Go for it.
- [49:23]
C
Hey, J and Jay. A close friend I'll call her. A and her husband have asked me to be a sperm donor for them. They've been struggling with fertility and, like, the idea of using someone they know rather than a stranger. I've actually done this once before for another friend through a clinic, and there's a child from that situation. The issue is that A and I have a long history. She had strong romantic feelings for me for years, from high school through college, and I never felt the same. We eventually stayed friends, but it was always complicated. She's now married, and it's been years since any of that. But this request still feels really uncomfortable given our past. I said no, but she and some mutual friends think I'm being unreasonable since I've donated before and it shouldn't be different. A is especially upset now. I'm stuck wondering, is my boundary fair here, or am I overthinking? The past. And do I need to explain more to her husband about why I said no? Or is it better to just leave it alone and let things cool down?
- [50:17]
D
So, Samantha and Jacob, what do you guys think?
- [50:21]
B
I think you shouldn't have to beg someone to be your sperm donor if you don't feel comfortable. Like that seems very unhealthy, right? No is no.
- [50:35]
A
Yeah, I completely agree. That is, you know, you want willing sperm.
- [50:41]
D
Right. I mean, your explanation, talking about your child like, you guys, that answers the question for me. When you guys are. This is the light that this love produced. Like, if that's what you guys see when you see your own kid, like, what are these people going to say?
- [50:58]
B
Right. I think better to blindly get some. Get some blind sperm.
- [51:03]
D
Right?
- [51:03]
C
Yes.
- [51:04]
A
And there's a lot out there willing to probably agreed.
- [51:08]
C
I think these things are like, you know, sperm donation or egg donation or all that stuff. It has its own set of complicated.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
C
Emotions already inherent in it that to add in like a complicated either past or present romantic feeling that's not like fully fleshed or processed. Like I'm sure you guys before you had your son were like, felt like you fully processed all. All of the things that like came up in your relationship.
- [51:34]
B
Yes.
- [51:35]
C
To make sure you were like 100% gung ho.
- [51:38]
A
Yeah. Before we even were engaged or married, you know, it was that way.
- [51:44]
B
And if I were the part A's partner, I would look at the. I mean, if you're already feeling uncomfortable about a past history, you're telling me that then you see like a little potential sliver of the sperm donor in your child. There's not. There's going to be like already kind of like a weird feeling about that, I would think. And you want to just like start parenthood like unconditionally loving your. That's parenthood is unconditional love for your child. Like, it might add a condition.
- [52:19]
D
It's weird for this person asking for it to not find it weird. They know the same history that the person writing in knows. The person writing is like, they were in love with me for like years and now they're coming to you because they what? Because they think you're hot? Like, like they, like, that's crazy. Like, how do you not see the weirdness in this?
- [52:40]
B
I think if we just said it like that if they were just like, you're hot. You know, I know we have a past, but like, I want my child to look like you. Can we just be honest and upfront that way maybe that makes it more savory, right?
- [52:54]
C
I would agree. Yeah. I think if. If my. If I came, if Mike, it didn't have sperm, were not able to create a baby. And then I was like, oh, I have this guy that I used to really like in high school. We should use his sperm. I think that would be a very weird conversation.
- [53:10]
B
How weird?
- [53:11]
D
Absolutely.
- [53:12]
C
So we're all on the same page.
- [53:13]
D
Yeah.
- [53:14]
C
I love it.
- [53:14]
D
Go find your cum somewhere else.
- [53:17]
B
Yes.
- [53:18]
D
Samantha and Jacob, this is. This was a pleasure.
- [53:22]
C
This was so much fun.
- [53:23]
A
Such a pleasure for us.
- [53:25]
B
So much fun.
- [53:26]
A
Thanks for being so open and receptive to our story, letting us share and. Yeah, this has been great.
- [53:33]
C
Of course. And thanks for letting us ask questions that, like, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are curious about, but maybe feel weird about asking.
- [53:41]
A
I just wanted to add that if people want another example of this relationship, they should read Liza Minnelli's biography because she just talked about having multiple relationships like ours.
- [53:53]
D
Wow.
- [53:53]
A
We're always looking for other ways to expand on this idea.
- [53:57]
D
Well, listen, everyone, go check out both Samantha and Jacob and check out their podcast. All the links will be in the description of this episode. Jordana, we solved dating again. There we go.
- [54:07]
C
We did it. We'll be back next time.
- [54:10]
D
Boom.
- [54:10]
B
Amazing.
- [54:17]
C
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