Leading Change in Veterinary Practice: Building Stronger Teams, Better Communication, and Lasting Behaviour Change

Summary

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Veterinary Business Podcast

Episode: Leading Change in Veterinary Practice: Building Stronger Teams, Better Communication, and Lasting Behaviour Change

Date: July 23, 2026
Host: Dan Deesha
Guest: Dr. Nicola Bromley (Veterinary leader, former hospital director at Fitzpatrick Referrals, current psychology master’s candidate)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the reality of leading meaningful change in veterinary practices. Host Dan Deesha is joined by Dr. Nicola Bromley, whose extensive leadership experience and psychological insights bridge gaps between management and staff, tackle the challenge of lasting behavioural change, and spotlight the true value of compassionate leadership, good communication, and understanding resistance within teams. The conversation moves from practical stories to the science and psychology underpinning effective change, offering actionable strategies for leaders at every level.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Human Side of Change

• Change Is About People, Not Just Systems:
  Dr. Bromley underscores that adopting new technology or systems (like PIMS) isn’t enough—real change happens through understanding the people on the team.

  • “A veterinary practice is a group of hard working humans trying to do something very difficult together. Real change doesn't happen because you bought a new PIMS or changed your pricing. It happens when you actually understand the people on your team.” – Dan Deesha [00:09]

• Listening is Fundamental:
  Many leaders want to move quickly, but Dr. Bromley stresses that taking time to listen to team members’ perspectives is crucial:

  • “It's really easy to go into a new role... and just want to change everything... But when we do that, we often meet so much resistance… we often haven't taken the time to bed in properly and listen to other people's perspective.” – Dr. Bromley [01:47]

  • Memorable quote: “All you see is all there is.” – referencing psychologist Daniel Kahneman [02:14]

Overcoming Resistance to Change

• Bridging the ‘Us vs. Them’ Gap:

  • Dr. Bromley explains that staff often feel change is imposed, not collaborative. Leaders must explore what makes people uncomfortable with changes and address both motivational and practical barriers. [03:47]
  • “People are going to feel a bit uncomfortable... But what's stopping you? Is this a motivational barrier? ...We need to look at the different motivations, but also the barriers.” – Dr. Bromley [03:47]

• Why Rational Proposals Fall Flat:

  • Leaders spend time rationalizing new ideas, but expect others to adapt instantly—ignoring that each team member needs time to process and buy in.
  • “You expect them to just pick it up and roll with it. But doesn't happen always the case.” – Dan Deesha [04:57]

Leadership Lessons Learned

• From Manager to Leader:
  Dr. Bromley describes her evolution from “doer” to leader who values listening and small group structures.

  • “I used to think you could just see a list of things... have a meeting, talk to everyone, and then it'd be done… Over the time, some things work, some things don't.” [05:38]
  • She shares an example of introducing new tech at Fitzpatrick Referrals: “...there was a lot of resistance because I didn't quite see it from their perspective enough initially. And I learned and we evolved and it got better.” [08:33]
  • Restructuring for Communication: She advocates for breaking large teams into manageable groups (about 12 people) to facilitate genuine conversations. [09:25]

• The Value of Reflection and Education:

  • After a pivotal talk at Vet Forum Europe on behaviour change, Dr. Bromley realized the universal struggle with change and was inspired to pursue her master's in psychology.
  • “Everybody feels like this. Everyone struggles with change and we don't all have the magic answers. And that inspired me... there's so much more to learn.” [10:32]

Compassionate Leadership & Team Wellbeing

• Psychological Safety and Group Support:
  Rather than focusing only on individuals, Dr. Bromley emphasizes supporting the practice as a whole.

  • “It's more powerful we do that as a practice, as a whole, rather than just focusing on the individuals.” [12:34]

• Practical Tips for Support:
  Even small changes, like ensuring everyone gets lunch and the ability to decompress, matter greatly for wellbeing and retention.

  • “We can structure, we can plan for it. Even if it's just not in that minute, put that in for tomorrow when we've got that 20-minute window. Let's block out that one consult... we have to normalize that.” [16:31]
  • Quote from industry research: “Make sure people have lunch. It was quite worrying... lunch. I'm like, what have we learned in the last 30 years?” [13:38]

Communication Challenges & Solutions

• Why Communication Breaks Down:
  Many leaders (especially veterinarians) want to deliver a message once and expect immediate change, but everyone processes communication differently.

  • “We get frustrated when we have to do something in more than one way. We're like... I've emailed or I've had a meeting and I'm done.” [17:42]

• Repetition & Personalization:
  Dr. Bromley stresses repeating key messages and adjusting communication methods to fit team members’ preferences.

  • “Sometimes we need to present it in a different way. Maybe we need to have a chat or an exploration of that thing... we all communicate differently.” [18:33]

• Managing Expectations and Taking Small Wins:
  Leaders must understand that changing minds across a team takes time and celebrate incremental progress.

  • “Take the wins as you go along the way. Like, okay, I've got those people on board... don't get defensive... be open to that feedback.” [21:46]

The Psychology Behind Resistance

• Why Good Ideas Meet Barriers:
  People resist not out of ignorance but often because change feels misaligned with their values or is impractical given their realities. [24:57]

  • Dr. Bromley introduces the COM-B model: Change requires Capability, Opportunity, and Motivation.
  • “It's looking at it in a different way, but exploring all those different factors... what are the blocks and how can we then go through those to make that change happen.” [27:13]

• Framing Change with Shared Values:
  For example, reframe “selling” as helping animals to bridge motivation and perception gaps.

  • “If you can spin it, that's what you would say... you're going to help all these animals—that feels something that everyone can get on board with rather than I need to make more money, which we don't really, most vets don't feel comfortable with.” [27:13]

Managing Change Fatigue vs. Resistance

• Identifying Exhaustion:
  Leaders must pause before introducing new changes and be aware not to overload teams.

  • “Do I really need to do this thing now and think about exploring the impact of it?... If I do this again now, I'm going to cause people to leave.” [28:58]
  • “You can have three [new initiatives] at max, wait until they're done and settled, and then you can go again if they're still relevant.” [30:58]

• Burnout and Human Limits:
  Dr. Bromley emphasizes self-awareness and humility.

  • “When we're so stressed, our ability to think rationally is so narrowed… So many errors happen in that high-pressure situation.” [31:46]
  • “Not every change… is going to succeed. And I think going alright, Okay. I thought it was a good idea. It wasn't. And I own that and accept that I'm not infallible and… show your team that.” [33:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Curiosity, not criticism.” – Dr. Bromley’s guiding phrase for leaders trying to build trust and understanding with their teams [36:45]

• “Give yourself a break as a leader… You don’t have to have all the answers. It’s hearing what [your people] have to say and working with them.” – Dr. Bromley [23:33]

• “It's so expensive to recruit and if people don't feel heard, it's so hard... retain your team, grow your team because they'll do so much more for you if they feel heard and if they feel supported.” – Dr. Bromley [15:42]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Content Summary | |---|---| | 01:36 | The real challenge of leading large teams through change | | 03:39 | How to prevent change from feeling like something done “to” the team | | 05:38 | Dr. Bromley's shift from manager to leader: lessons learned | | 09:25 | The benefits of smaller team structures | | 11:47 | Compassionate leadership and the importance of psychological safety | | 13:38 | Research: “Make sure people have lunch” – the basics matter | | 17:42 | Why leaders struggle with communication and managing expectations | | 24:57 | Psychology of resistance: the COM-B model and the importance of values | | 28:58 | Recognizing exhaustion vs. resistance to change | | 33:04 | Accepting failure and showing humility as a leader | | 36:43 | One practical starting point: “Curiosity, not criticism” |

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Practical Takeaways for Veterinary Leaders

• Listen before acting; seek your team’s perspective.
• Structure teams so genuine conversations are possible.
• Repeat key messages and use different communication channels.
• Recognize and respect resistance (and exhaustion).
• Frame necessary changes within shared values, not just business goals.
• Support both individuals and the team as a whole—prioritize basic needs.
• Embrace humility: not all ideas will work, and that’s part of leadership growth.
• Adopt a mindset of “curiosity, not criticism” when approaching feedback or resistance.

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Connect with Dr. Nicola Bromley

• LinkedIn: Nicola Bromley

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This summary captures the tone and depth of a thoughtful, nuanced discussion on real world veterinary leadership, blending practical experience with psychological insight.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

You know, we talk a lot about systems software and spreadsheets, but at the end of the day, a veterinary practice is a group of hard working humans trying to do something very difficult together. Real change doesn't happen because you bought a new PIMS or changed your pricing. It happens when you actually understand the people on your team. Welcome back to the Veterinary Business podcast. I'm your host, Dan Deesha. It's great to have you here. Today's guest has lived this at the highest level. Dr. Nicola Bromley has spent two decades in the field, including a stint as hospital director at Fitzpatrick Referrals, leading a massive team of 170. She's now diving deep into the psychology of why we behave the way we do. Hmm. We're going to talk about leadership, how to stop the us versus them mentality between management and staff, and what it actually takes to build a resilient team. This episode is powered by Echo Marketing, the growth partner of the Veterinary Business podcast and a trusted resource in the veterinary community. Dr. Bromley, thank you for being here.

[A]

Thank you, Don. Really appreciate to have the opportunity to speak. It's great stuff. Thank you.

[B]

Now, Dr. Bromley, you've led large veterinary teams in high pressure environments. What do you think separates a practice that simply manages change from one that actually grows through it?

[A]

It's probably going to sound quite cliche, but really listening to your team and making sure that we view things from another perspective, I think it's really easy to go into a new role and certainly, you know, I can see, see what I've done in the past and sort of now reflect back on that. Sometimes we go into a new role and we just want to change everything because it seems like the right thing to do. But when we do that, we often meet so much resistance. You think, well, why am I meeting all this resistance? Because we often haven't taken the time to bed in properly and listen to other people's perspective. We see our view and I'll probably quote some psychology things, so apologize for that, but that's where my headspace is at the moment. But there's a great quote from Daniel Kahneman. He's an amazing psychologist and he talks about all you see is all there is all there is. So basically that's your view on life, what you see out the window. But we're not looking at the rest of it. And we talk about looking through other people's lenses, but we rarely take the time to do that. And that's so important when you're talking a massive team and change Unless we spend the time, which can feel frustrating, that things are going to take longer than you want. Because we all want quick fixes and simple solutions, but they rarely embed. So if we don't take the time to listen to the 10 teams that you've got and think about why, what difference does it make to those people about that change that you really want to put in place? Then you think you're winning, but often you stand back and you're like, why hasn't that happened? And I can think of multiple examples of that over the years. And now my understanding is a lot better and hope that going back into a veterinary after my master's will, I'll be better at doing these things because I've learned so much about why people do what they do or don't do what they do, which is. Which has been really interesting.

[B]

Now, staff often feel change is done to them. Right. Rather than with them. How do you bridge that gap?

[A]

Often we have to do these changes because they're really important. So we can't say that change, you know, you have to. There is to be a point where you people are going to feel a bit uncomfortable, but it's working out what. What's making those people feel uncomfortable with that change? Because what's obvious to me, I need the business to make more money, or I need to put this procedure in place to make this thing safer, is logical. But I've had loads of time to rationalize that, think about that, because I've probably come up with the idea, well, what does it make a difference to those people? And again, talking to them, listening to them and going, okay, well, what's stopping you? Is this a. Is this a something, a motivational barrier? You don't understand why? Because that's often the problem. We don't give people the reason why we're doing things. And it might be that they need a slightly different reason. And that's fine. We need to look at the different motivations, but also the barriers. You know, we go. Go quicker, consult quicker, or sell this thing or what's stopping that happening in that console. Is that. Is that time? Is that that barrier? Is it. That actually doesn't fit with the value set of the practice. You know, what does that look like? So looking at the psychological barriers as well as the physical barriers, again, it takes time, but so, so important.

[B]

Hmm. So what you're saying there. Well, what I'm understanding there is really we spend a lot of time rationalizing the things that we're going to put out There the things that we're going to pitch to another person. So it almost feel, duh, you know, this is the best idea in the world. But you probably took months to get to that point where when you're pitching it to another person, you expect them to just pick it up and roll with it. But doesn't happen always the case right now in your own carrier. Dr. Bromley, was there any specific moment where you realized managing wasn't enough and you had to lead different?

[A]

Yeah, I think I just. I used to think that you could just see a list of things or, you know, you're going to achieve these things. I'm a real. I think a lot of vets are real doers. They're real perfectionist people. We just want to get things done and sorted. We like problem solving. And so I used to think you could manage like that. You can just, you know, have a meeting, talk to everyone, and then it'd be done, and then you'd reflect back and go, why isn't that in place? And over the time, you know, some things work, some things don't. Doing a master's degree in psychology has taught me, oh, okay, now I understand why people weren't speaking back or, you know, why people were silent when you thought they were in agreement. But you're in a room in a big meeting and people are just nodding that they're not. They're not going to do what you want them to do because they don't see it from your perspective. So, again, taking that time is key, but it can be really frustrating. And I. I've had times, I think when I went into Fitzpatrick, I came in all these. What I thought were great ideas, they weren't, you know, and for me, they were great ideas, but not for the whole team were they great ideas. And it's taken me a lot of time to be able to reflect back and go, okay, well, that was a good thing to do. But this is why that didn't go as smoothly as I wanted it to. So I think. I think when we look at things like putting in a new technology, which we all want to do, like, this is great. This is amazing. Let's put this new app in. It's going to be great for the clients. Well, yes, it is. That. That cohort of people. Amazing. That's really helped reduce their barriers to communicate with you. Amazing. Great stuff. But what about the reception team? What about the vets? The vets just think they're busier and you're giving them more work and they're like, no way am I engaging with that because that's really hard for them. They're not seeing the benefit because their day is so busy and busy something that we always use in veterinary. I think probably all over the world we're too busy to change. So they need to see what that looks like from their perspective. And that really took time. When I put in a new technology at Fitzpatrick, it did really help some teams, but there was a lot of resistance because I didn't quite see it from their perspective enough initially. And I learned and we evolved and it got better. And for some that once they could see what difference it made, you know, that they could see their colleagues like, actually I think I could get into this, but it just takes time and you have to accept that you might have this time course of embedding this new tech. And it's going to take a month. We know live these things. It rarely is as simple as that. And we have to appreciate that, that we have. There's the planning fallacy where we go. It's going to take a month and six months later, you're still getting there. That's okay. It's not failure. We need to take the wins as we go and look at the change that we've, you know, that we've embraced and appreciate. If you get 20% of your team on board, you're getting there. But it takes that time. I think it's so easy. Really frustrated so quickly. Take a breath. Listen. What, what? You know, it's okay if people say no. Let's understand where that no's coming from. Because it. You might just not understand the reason and getting to the true reason, whereas someone would all say it's because I'm too busy. Well, what's making you too busy? What can we do to look at that? Tell. Talk to me more about that. But again, it takes time. And I think a lot of leadership is talking to your people not having too big a team because you don't then have the time to talk to those people. And you know, I managed a Team170, but I didn't individually manage 170 people because we all know that's impossible. So part of what I did was restructure that business so that there were key teams of maybe 12, something like that, where you've got the time to talk and understand. And that really helped break down these barriers and empower people. So I think that's probably one thing that I did that made a huge difference is breaking up into smaller teams, allowing people to grow was a big part of what I did and it is still ongoing there, which is great.

[B]

Right. And of course making sure to take a breather and listen. Right, yes, it seems like simple advice, but I'm just curious, where was your aha moment? Like, when did you think, you know what? I really need to either pursue my master's in psychology to really understand the psychology behind what is going on and really the psychology behind why leaders don't take that breath and listen.

[A]

So I think for me, having sort of managed big teams over the years and just really interested in sort of reading more about the subject. And I spoke at Vet Forum Europe on behavior change and I found it really interesting researching more about that to talk there to all these people. And I think I felt a little bit impostery at speaking there in front of this massive load of business people. And then I had so many people come up to me afterwards going, great talk. So interest, stay relatable. Everybody feels like this. Everyone struggles with change and we don't all have the magic answers. And that inspired me to then go, actually, I really want to know more about this because I know some, but not in the depth that I know now. And it's still a massive subject. More to learn, and I think that's been humbling is understanding that there's so much more to learn, but really, really helpful along the journey that I've had.

[B]

Amazing. Now, Dr. Bromley, veterinary teams often face stress in emotional pressure and constant demands. What role does compassionate leadership play in helping teams stay engaged and perform well?

[A]

So again, we're back to listening and really hearing what they're truly saying about. Do we need to debrief about what's just happened and spending that time. I think it's so easy to rush through and accept that these stresses are normal when they're not. We normalize them because we sort of have to. But taking a breath and giving those people time to approach you and being consistent about that. You know, we talk. It's very key in leadership to have an open door policy. But really look at that person when you're talking to them. Give them the space that they deserve. Don't be on your computer or finishing an email. You need to look and take the time to be with them when they need you in that moment and being aware of the vibe of the room. I think we all know when we walk into a really bad day in a practice and we go, oh, the atmosphere feels strange today. What's happening? You walk into that building and go, okay, let Me understand. Let me have a walk around and find out what's happened here. Did something die? Did you know what happened? Because we have to deal with that all the time and taking that time and making sure that you've got enough people to sign, post and support people. It's interesting because psychological safety is a really big part of what I'm passionate about. Want to understand better. And the evidence is that although it's really important to support individuals with their challenges, it's more powerful that we do that as a, as a practice, as a, as a, as a whole, rather than just focusing on the individuals. And I think we've done a lot of that, but all that tends to do and it's important that we support those people is it makes people feel a bit singled out and a lot of the interventions that you're going to put in place a lot help everybody. So if we can look at the practice holistically and give them that support, whatever that looks like, is that just time out? Is that mirroring? Let's make sure people leave on time. I think Zooters did a study, the other white paper last year, where one of the key messages was make sure people have lunch. It was quite worrying that, you know, they did this amazing paper and I was like so interested to read it and it was like, lunch. I'm like, what have we learned in the last 30 years? It's like, we need to take lunch. Well, yes, let's make sure that we do make sure people have the time to breathe. We talk about it, but I worked in a lot of practice over the last year to locum and still we're not doing that very well. We do need to look after people and we have to show that that's okay and normalise that behaviour. So for me, look at the team as a whole, support them, give that individual support that's important and give people time, which I know is hard, but we seem to be able to prioritise having a consult for 20 minutes and working to time. But sometimes we don't seem to be able to prioritize looking after our people for 20 minutes, which to me is crazy. But we put up these barriers and we have to break those down. We have to re normalize that it's okay to take that 20 minutes and that's so important to retain our teams, to grow our teams and to make them feel safe in that environment.

[B]

There we go. When we put it into roi context, everything makes sense. For a practice owner, taking that 20 minutes with your team member, you Know, that's, that's an investment. That's an investment, you know, it's not necessarily an expense. It can help with your retention because that is a huge problem, at least in States. I'm not sure what's the situation out there in UK right now. Yeah. So very similar especially.

[A]

Yeah. And it's so expensive to recruit and if people don't feel heard, it's so hard. I, I worked with a colleague on a talk a little while about, about generational differences and he was telling me his experience of. He was put into a really senior role. He just wasn't heard by his boss. You know, he's, he was in a massive team and he, the boss kept breaking, not going, not giving as a one to one and he's any six months in, he's like, no, I can't do this because you're not hearing me. And it makes such a difference if that person had given the time which was, you know, half an hour and actually properly engaged, that he would have been on board and so much good could have come out of that. And it's so sad when I hear these stories and see these stories of too busy, I'm too busy will free up the time, retain your team, grow your team because they'll do so much more for you if they feel heard and if they, you know, feel supported. And I know it's really hard and, and we feel like we had no time in our day. But we can structure what we can plan for it. We can, we can do these things even if it's just not in that minute. We can go, okay, well now, but let's put that in for tomorrow when we've got that 20 minute window, let's block out that one consult. That's okay. And that we have to normalize that and that's. That for me is so important and I've seen that over time why people leave, it's because they just don't feel heard and I don't have all the answers and I've got it wrong in the past. I just hope that I can get it more right in the future.

[B]

Appreciate that, Dr. Bromley. And I think that connects perfectly with my next question here, which is about communication. Right. Communication is such a major part in leadership. Where do you see veterinary leaders struggle the most when trying to bring teams together around change?

[A]

I think we get frustrated because we want change to happen quickly. Like I say, we're mainly leaders of veterinary practices. Certainly the UK are often vets, which is great in so many ways, but we think quite simply about these things. We get frustrated when we have to do something in more than one way. We're like, well, that's it, I've communicated that thing, whatever that looks like, I've emailed or I've had a meeting and I'm done. And then when someone goes, well, I didn't read that email or I didn't do it, people go, oh, come on, I'm so frustrated in whatever the way they want to express that frustration. And like I said earlier in the podcast, we just want to rush through, want to get on with it, and we don't always see the other side of things and it's sometimes slowing down. It's repeating things. We know that repeating messages works really well. Most of us on social media all the time and the repeat messages come through and they get in your head. If we say something once, not really in someone's head enough. And sometimes we need to present, present it in a different way. Maybe we need to have a chat or reminder or an exploration of that thing and appreciate that we all communicate differently. If we've got small enough teams, we should know the best way to approach things for the individuals within your team. Some people process slowly go differently. I'm quite direct and I like to tell people this is how I communicate and then explore how they want me to communicate to them and vice versa. So we understand that a lot better. Because some people want to read something, process it and then have a chat.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Other people want to verbalize it, that's also fine. But I think we get really frustrated when we don't quite understand. Everyone wants to do things in a different way. It can feel really slow, but then we don't get the results that we want. So it's, it's hard. There's no simple solution for. And I think communication, everywhere you go, everyone goes, oh, I need to fix communication. Well, what does that, what do you mean by that? What does that look like? And work slowly through things. And I think it's ever evolving, ever changing because your team changes and therefore your comms needs to change. And that will feel so frustrating, but it's okay. And that's normal because we do that every day in life. When we talk to people in different ways, we meet them. But in our job, I think we think I'll send an email or I send, do a meeting and it's done. But it's not, sadly.

[B]

It's like hand holding ourselves to that professional label. Right. Since we are professionals at our job, we already expect Everyone to read all the emails. Make sure you read all the bullet points inside that email too. And also, also not just read it, understand it, absorb it and do it exactly the way I want you to do it. But you know, we have five fingers on our hands and they're different. And people, when they read emails, although, you know, we're communicating in English, it's understood much differently. Right. So I'm just curious over here. We, Is there a problem with that expectation piece of it? Like we expect things to just happen in one communication. Should we change that mindset somehow? Does that make a difference? To feel like, okay, now I'm going to bring about a change. It's going to take some time because I'm going to change like 5, 10, 170 different people's minds. This is going to take a while. Is that a good starting place?

[A]

I think it can feel, yes, I think it is a good starting place, but it makes you feel like you're never going to get there, which is really hard. You've got to start somewhere. You've got to start with. I feel this thing's going to happen. I think you've just got to take the wins as you go along the way. Like, okay, well I've got those people on board. This is happening for those, let's talk about why that's working for those people that are on board with this change, whatever that looks like. And okay, that's, that's great, I understand from their people. And then I'll talk to these other group of people. What, what is it that that's. And, and don't get defensive because it's so difficult often your idea to go and be open to that feedback and not, not react. I have to make sure my face isn't in a cross face. But you know, you have to go, okay, well let's see it from your view. What's, what's stopping this? It's working for these people. Explain to me openly, you know, how I can help you or how we can help each other get to this point because we need to get there. We need to make this. Otherwise there's not progress. And we like change where we've got control of it. So if you can give people a bit more control, that often helps. If you can give them a bit more autonomy. I think as a group of people, vets hate having that autonomy taken away from them. We get quite reactive if we feel that that's been taken and barriers go right up. So trying to work with people is good, I think we focus so much on education. Like we'll give everyone all this information. It's all logical when we forget and it's so easy to do that. We don't work nobody. We post rationalize a lot post rationalize everything. But life is, isn't about being rational. We, we, we think quickly and we, we minimize all those things afterwards and it can be quite frustrating. So thinking about why you do things really truly and realizing actually I don't do most things in life because I'm one, either actively thinking about things or two, because I've learned this and this creates this. Some of it's habits, some of it's just my biases that I'm aware of. Some it's just the easier path. You have to really slow down. But it's, it's difficult. None of what I'm saying makes managing big teams easier. But I think give yourself a break as a leader and appreciate it's not what you're necessarily saying. It's, it's hearing that team and working with them. You don't have to have all the answers. It's hearing what they've got to say and working with them to move that forward. And sometimes, you know, if you got a massively diverse group of people, you'll come up with some brilliant answers, which is great because I don't know it all and, and no leader does. And that's important to be humble enough to appreciate.

[B]

Right. Humble enough to appreciate and also appreciate those small wins. You're having 10 team members, one or two of them gets it. So you know your idea is working. It's just the others have a bit of a different mode of communication.

[A]

Absolutely. Indeed.

[B]

Now, Dr. Bromley, you're studying the psychology of behavior change. What should practice owners understand about why people resist change even when the change is clearly needed?

[A]

I think because it's not always people they might understand. Well, as a leader, you understand why you want to do that thing or you've been told by your corporate that why you have to do that thing. So it's logical you, you've had time to process it. The other team members, there will be multiple reasons why that's, that change isn't, doesn't feel right for them. It doesn't mean it doesn't have to happen, but it might not feel right. And it's exploring why does that not feel right. And I've just had to learn about looking at those, you know, you know, looking at those different barriers. And so there's, there's, there's quite a Good system called Combi bottle which people may or may not be familiar with and I certainly wasn't before I started. But that's looking at capability, opportunity and motivation for change. And if we break it down into those different subjects, then we can see how we can get the behavior to change. So is, is that capability barrier, physical, psychological, is that opportunity something, you know, that's, that's there? Do they have the time, you know, is that possible to change that thing in that time? Can they fit all those things into that 10 minute consult? Is that achievable? I don't know. And what's their motivation? What, how can we make this something that you actually want to do rather than like oh that feels discordant with my values or with, you know, what's going on and it's understanding, well, how can I make that in a look in a different way? How can I make that say that that thing I need to sell because we need to make money as a business. How can I make that something that's, that's motivational, you know, what's, what's the commonality of the value set that we can make that work? Because it might be the, a different way that has been sold to you by your corporate saying I need to sell this product. Well, if you can spin it, that's what you would say. And to actually you're going to help all these animals that feels something that everyone can get on board with rather than I need to make more money which we don't really, most vets don't feel comfortable with, doesn't fit with their values. And so it's looking at it in a different way, but exploring all those different factors about what's, what are the blocks and how can we then go through those to make that change happen.

[B]

Now that's quite true because no one wants to be a car salesman. Although everyone needs to really learn the art of sales. We sell every day. But when you do frame it in the outcomes that you know, veterinarians are really interested in, the team are really interested in, which is the well being of the animal, the pet and just achieving that overall great outcome, it becomes much more of an educational thing. Is it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, I think it's not. It's. We think it's all about education. We think it's all about knowledge is power and it is to a degree. But if you can think about the why a bit more and think about well why is that helpful? Does, does that make my life easier in that consult? So I think at the moment, say with, with tech onboarding, if you can get people to appreciate maybe an AI scribe. Actually that's going to make my life easier, but I might have to modify my behavior a little bit. I'm going to have to now describe how I do this consult, which feels a bit odd. Don't really like that very much, but actually saved me so much time. And I've got this write up. So it's working on what, how it works for those individuals and it'll be different for all those different individuals. But it's finding, it's finding that. Why, finding what that looks like.

[B]

Okay. Now, Dr. Bromley. Teams often feel this change fatigue. Okay. How can a leader tell the difference between resistance and exhaustion?

[A]

Okay, yeah, I think we do need to, to be really aware of that because we can be so enthusiastic and like want to change everything all the time. And it just, you do have to take a breath and go, do I really need to do this thing now and think about exploring the impact of it? So I've known times where we've gone, well, I need to change this rotor. I'm like, actually, historically I did this six months ago. If I do this again now, I'm going to cause people to leave. So it's going to sit with this uncomfortable for a bit longer because it's too much too soon and the impact that's going to have on the business could be catastrophic. So let's just pause and sit with the. It's not quite right now and wait for the opportunity to come when it is right. Or let's just review that. Let's park that idea. Don't, don't bin it. Just, you know, have it there ready to go. I think politics works like that. Have all these ideas ready to go and wait for the times. Right. To do so because everything has to align because people do like go, oh, can you just stop? I need to sit. I need to move into this, through this change process and be accepting and it's embedded in it. Feel comfortable. I need to feel comfortable in what I'm doing every day. If I change all of these things, I feel so uncertain, so stressed actually. My brain can't work properly because the more stressed we make our teams, the more likely errors are going to happen and they no longer can feel rationally and openly. And then everyone gets more and more stressed at the end of a self perpetuating cycle of a bit of a disaster really. So I think sometimes we have to write down all those great ideas and then go, okay, you can have three at max, wait until they're done and settled, and then you can go again if they're still relevant and no other good ones have come up. But I never go with more than three ideas at a time because it's just too much. You can take them on board, but don't run with them. It's too much, too soon. It's not fair.

[B]

And I really appreciate you showing us the impact of, you know, just overdoing it. Right. You're going to cause more stress for your team, which is going to result in more errors. And honestly, no one wants to do a bad job. Everyone wants to do a great job. And when they are unable to do it because of the system, that is always just overwhelming them. You know, do you wonder if there are any other options? That's a good way to go about it. If not, we know things can go in the other direction as well, where you just burn out.

[A]

Yeah, and that's. And that's such a big problem in our industry is that burnout that, that just that increase in pressure all the time. And we don't give ourselves the break enough to be able to appreciate that when we're so stressed, our ability to think rationally is so narrowed. And so that's why so many errors happen in that. In that high pressure situation. And again, going back to let's leave on time, let's prioritize that lunch that we talked about earlier. It seems so little, but it's so important just to have a bit of space to breathe. I mean, I've just been doing master's exams the last few weeks and my stress levels have been somewhere up here. And it just makes me realize you can't do it all the time. Your behavior changes when you're in that heightened point. I don't think I've been the nicest person to live with, but it just sort of shows me what it's like for other people as well. So they're all done. Thankfully. Thankfully, I'm okay again now. But, you know, we do that to our teams a lot of time. All the taking exams are doing all these things and we have to appreciate that's loading on them. And then we, you know, stick this change on top and it's that straw camel situation and, you know, let's give people a break when like, okay, not now. We'll come back to that. Or is that. Was that really the right thing to do? And reflecting that, because not every change that we want to do is going to succeed. And I think going all right, Okay. I thought it was a good idea. It wasn't. Well, this is why it didn't work. Is it worth running again or is it. That wasn't a great idea. And I own that and accept that I'm not, I'm not infallible and that I think that's really important as well to, to show your team that, you know, you don't always get it right. And you have to own that and appreciate that sometimes, you know, okay, we're all human.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of great things right there. And it's so interesting how undervalued owners can get about their own leadership authority or their responsibility. Right. As a leader, you have such great privilege of really impacting so many lives at so many different touch points. But somewhere along the line, perhaps in chase of revenue, you kind of lose the plot and just, you know, you're like, oh, that's a really cool new, you know, AI. Well, scribes are a bit easy nowadays. AI this, AI that. You. Let's bring it in and you just overwhelm the team who just got used to something like three weeks ago.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I really appreciate that perspective, Dr. Bromley. And we're going to take a quick pause here. So. That point about behavior change is so important because in veterinary practice, growth does not happen just because the owner wants it to happen. People need clarity, teams need alignment, and the business needs the right systems supporting the direction it is trying to move in. The same is true with marketing. A practice owner may be doing a lot updating the website, running ads, asking for reviews, posting online, but still not have a clear picture of what is actually helping the practice grow and what is creating more noise. Well, that is where Echo Marketing comes in and they are offering our listeners a complimentary marketing strategy meeting. So think of it as a chance to step back and look at your practice's growth more clearly. You will sit down with Lila, a veterinary marketing strategist who has worked with over 200 different clinics across North America and look at where your marketing is working, where the gaps may be, and how your online presence can better support the kind of healthy, aligned, growth ready practices that we are talking right now. You can go ahead and book your complimentary marketing strategy meeting@v Veterinary businessinstitute.com forward/msm. I'll repeat that one more time. Veterinary business institute. That's one word.com/forward/msm. Now, echo only takes a limited number each month, so it is worth reserving a spot while one is available and that connects closely to the final piece of the conversation where veterinary leaders can start when they want to build a stronger culture and a more collaborative team. So, Dr. Bromley, for veterinary leaders who want to improve culture, collaboration, team performance, what is one practical place to start?

[A]

I think the people that I've worked with before would probably think of me and hopefully come up with a phrase that I say a lot, which is curiosity, not criticism. So for me, that's key. Let's go in there, let's hear what they're going to say and don't react back. And then we're much more likely to be able to engage the team and move them forward in whatever change that we need. So I'm hoping that's a phrase that goes with me through my career and certainly if I see previous colleagues, that's hopefully something they link with me because I just think it's so important. We can be so easily judgmental and that's a big part of who we are as people. We naturally have those biases and shortcuts, what we call heuristics, but actually settle, you know, think, pause, and then think, why? Let's have a better understanding. For me, I hope that's helpful.

[B]

I Hope so too. Dr. Bromley, where can our listeners find you and get in touch with you and your work?

[A]

I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm just about to finish. So find me on LinkedIn just under Nicola Bromley. I'm just finishing my master's at the moment, so I've got a dissertation for the summer to go. And then, excitingly, I'm going into a new role for a growing referral center on the south coast of the uk. So that's an exciting project that's, that's in its early phases, so that'll be. That'll be good to do. New teams.

[B]

So, yeah, fantastic. Thank you very much, Dr. Nicola Brumley.

[A]

Thank you, Don. Appreciate it.

[B]

So, if you're an owner listening in and you want more clarity on what's actually driving your growth, don't forget to check out that marketing strategy meeting@v Veterinarybusinessinstitute.com MSM that's Veterinarybusinessinstitute.com MSM. I'm Disha, and thanks for listening to the Veterinary Business podcast. We'll see you on the next episode.